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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/19/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
THX-1138
(01/19/01; 23:47:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 45965)
Could the California electrical problem could lead to a return to gold as money?
All day today after reading story after story about California's problems I just kept thinking about this issue.
What kept popping in my head was Article 1, Section 10 of the US Constitution.
"No State shall make anything but gold and silver a payment of debt."
What kept popping into my head was the word "States".
So here we now have the California Utilities losing their credit ratings and rumours are wispered that the State of California may actually lose it's own credit rating.
Now I read somewhere that the State of California was going to intervene and purchase some natural gas for the utilities.
Ok, now since Article 1, Section 10 is in reference to States, then private individuals and corporations should be able to make contracts for payment in cash or whatever they want. But if a State is to pay for something it is required to pay in gold or silver.
With the State of California's credit rating now in question, why would any individual or corporation want to risk being paid by some entity that can't get a loan.
So if the State enters into a contract with an out-of-state utility for energy supplies then that utility should be able demand payment in gold coin from the "State" for the product. Plus they should be able to demand payment before delivery.
I know if I was the owner of a utility and was selling to a State or entity that had credit problems I wouldn't sell them anything on credit. They may not pay you back.
-Is there any way a company could use this idea? Or am I just completely wrong in my idea?
rc
(01/19/01; 22:49:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 45964)
Your Webbsite
@Thai Gold
Very well done! Félicitations!
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 22:10:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45963)
Attn: $HIFTY & ALL... RE: WebSite revisions
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/index.htm
Hi
Thanks, everyone who tried/commented on my revised
website. I have just-now finished a marathon update of
most of the HTML code within it.
Tweeking and adding features that some of you may find
informational or fun.
For convenience, you only need to BookMark the above link.
If/when you or anyone surfs back to it, it's best to hit your
"refresh" button (or F5 Key) to initially refresh your browser's
cache there. Else your cache will still be retaining the old
previous HTML code and so, you wouldn't see most of the
revisions. Alot would just be missing.
Thanks again, all.!.
ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com
SHIFTY
(01/19/01; 21:55:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 45962)
ThaiGold
Nice work
I like your HomePage links. I added it to my favorites.
Thanks
$hifty
megatron
(01/19/01; 21:39:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 45961)
Loss of Backbone
In the classic Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
Gibbon mentioned that the most 'easily' overcome opponents
or city states were those which had failed to arm themselves or do battle for a number of generations, esentially breeding a pacifist strain, and were brutally over-run time and again. Does the word "Canada" come to mind?
Ray Patten
(01/19/01; 21:06:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 45960)
$ in trouble?
There was a bit of news at the end of a guest editorital in today's Wall Street Journal. It could be very bearish on our favorite currency.
"The Clinton administration, as part of its last-minute rush of new regulations, earlier this week proposed that U.S. banks be required to report deposit interest earned by foreigners to their respective governments. This would be bad news for the U.S. economy, which greatly benefits from the inflow of foreign captial."
If anyone has any more information on this development, the Lords and Ladies of this forum would like to know about it.
Topaz
(01/19/01; 21:01:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 45959)
**** 2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey ****
Had USAGOLD posed this question in Jan '98, '99, or '00, my "Gold-to-da-Moon!" answer would have been proven incorrect over a similar timeframe.
These last couple of years have increased my respect (for the People & Orginisations who "manage" the affairs of Money and Gold in the "Free" Market) to such a degree that I'm firmly convinced the status-quo can be maintained for "several" more years yet, why already this year the 50bp int. rate reduction has been all but negated in the Market - and so will the next one...and the next, etc.
If my thinking is clear, '01 will be a good Year for "NEW" Tech, DOW, Tech, OIL. Au otoh will underperform.
It all comes down to Fiat management and IMO they're (currently) managing just fine.
Peter Asher
(1/19/2001; 20:52:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 45958)
Christopher
That tale of the waitress trying to open your worthless K-rand for it's valuable chocolate has us in stitches. What happened next?
ET
(1/19/2001; 20:06:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45957)
Doug Noland
http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htm
From the article;
So, it may be next week, next month or perhaps even a few
months down the road. But everyone (including Mr.
Greenspan) better well be prepared for The Wrath of Mr.
Market. He hasn't been around these parts in a spell and
all the townsfolk, especially the drunken gamblers and
gunslingers down at the Saloon, have long forgotten what a
tough Son of a Bitch he can be. He doesn't like
troublemakers and has his own way of dishing out his own
ferocious brand of punishment. Mr. Market does it on his
terms, is unpredictable by nature. But boy can he be quick
as lightening, with his punches landing with shocking force.
We've been on the lookout for him but don't see him quite
yet. He uses the element of surprise as one of his best
weapons. He's on his way; make no mistake. We can
already hear his intimidating voice now: "The raping and
pillaging, the fun and games are over for all you wild
cowboys, drunks and card sharks. All this BS has gone on
for way too long and has gotten way out of hand, so I have
no choice but to bring it all officially to an immediate end.
From here on out, there's going to be some law and order in
this here town. I'm changin’ the rules and I'm going to
enforce them with an iron fist. You might darn well get
used to it. From now on, we're going to do things with
some discipline and respect. There's a new sheriff in
town…"
ET
(1/19/2001; 20:03:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45956)
Ed Bugos
http://www.safehaven.ca/GIC011701.htm
From the article;
It is easy to be a critic
The solution for monetary policy makers everywhere is to peg their own
"policy" to the way that the nation's currency interacts with the freely
floating gold market price. This way, they can more easily monitor that
elusive character of prices, influenced by a change in the currency's
purchasing power, and adjust policy accordingly, maybe properly, and
certainly with accountability. What an achievement that would be, and
the Internet just might help us do precisely that. How? By encouraging
the evolution of a freer press and thus, a freer flow of information.
Though, the question must be asked:
Can the Internet function in the private sector without the assistance
of the government? Perhaps it is a relevant question in today's elusive
profit picture.
The Point of Recognition
This point, therefore, cannot be too far away. But as long as currencies
can still be "managed," so can gold prices. Thus, it is this argument,
which is central to the gold debate, and it is when investors realize that
the daunting task of managing a currency is a banker's version of
utopia, that gold prices will soar, and never look back!
The only time that a group of people generally will all agree that there
hasn't been any gold manipulation, is when they want to do a stock
deal.
HOOSIER GOLDBUG
(1/19/2001; 18:59:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 45955)
THE LONGEST JOURNEY STARTS WITH THE FIRST STEP!
So glad to be living in these times. So glad to be educated by a worthy bunch of posters at this forum. MANY, MANY THANKS!
Someone has to start the process, the plan, the procedure! I accumulate GOLD because it is REAL MONEY! I may never see the day when the benefits are realized for the actions regarding GOLD that I am undertaking. Nevermind, I hope I have set in process a plan, procedure, that is carried on by my sons, and then by my grandchildren, and then by my great grandchildren, and then by my .......,. I do not care that I am ridiculed by my sons' economics professors at PURDUE UNIVERSITY that I am an unintelligent, radical, right-wing, nut. Some day my actions, my sons actions, my grandchildrens actions, etc. will materialize in benefit, no matter which direction it takes. I AM NOT CONCERNED IF IT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN MY LIFETIME! I wish my great grandfather, my grandfather, my father had denied themselves some consumption in order to hand down through the generations THAT WHICH IS REAL, GOLD. No matter, I WILL BE THE FIRST!
I also collect stamps, the mint variety. I do not care as most have ridiculed my actions as being a bad investment. I do not care that 300 million of the 500 million ELVIS stamps have been hoarded, and I may never see the day when they increase in value more than the thiry some cents I paid for them. MAYBE NOT FOR ME, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE NEXT GENERATIONS. I wish someone would have handed down to me a sizable collection from a prior era! THIS IS AMERICA! I CAN BE AS STUPID AS I WANT TO BE AND I WILL NOT BE SHOT FOR IT! EVEN IF I KEEP DOING THE "STUPID" THING OF EXCHANGING FIAT FOR "REAL" I WILL NOT BE SENT TO, IS IT SIBERIA?
RossL
(1/19/2001; 18:57:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 45954)
Randy...fun thoughts
The secrecy is the easiest part for me to believe. Throughout the ages, people have hidden wealth from thieves, governments, and the taxman. (all one and the same).
I do not believe the official figures for CPI, GDP, housing starts, M*, gold, unemployment, *, *, *, *
I also believe it is a mistake to assume that this hidden gold will arrive on the scene to save the shorts. The last time it took a 20X rise from $35 to shake some hidden gold out of its hiding place.
Cavan Man
(1/19/2001; 18:49:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 45953)
A Corollary Golden
"This shipmates is that other lesson; and woe to that pilot of the living God who slights it. Woe to him this world charms from Gospel duty. Woe to him who seeks to pour oil upon the waters when God has brewed them into a gale. Woe to him who seeks to please rather than appal. Woe to him whose good name is more to him than Goodness!. Woe to him, who in this world, courts not dishonor. Woe to him who would not be true, even though to be false were salvation. Yea, woe to him who, as the great Pilot Paul has said it, while preaching to others is himself a castaway!"
From:
The Sermon of Father Mapple
Moby Dick (the greatest American novel)
Herman Melville
Randy (@ The Tower)
(1/19/2001; 18:18:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45952)
RossL...fun thoughts
"Randy. 200 tons a year for 5000 years. I don't know how the pyramids were built either. They look impossible to me also."
Sure, any combination of production values over years will provide the fanciful number, but will not provide for the sustained secrecy that must accompany it...otherwise this would not be "black gold" above and beyond the recognized yet still impressive (impossible?) historical production. One would think the history books and archeological evidence would be rich with tales and displays such overwhelming pre-Columbian bounty, no?
What say we ask YGM, our most favorite miner, if such numbers are viable without the aid of modern infrastructure and technology?
Otherwise, we are left only to ponder the grandeur of the black pyramids which as assuredly were built above and beyond those that have been accounted for, and the accomplishments of many moon landings that did not survive the oral traditions of our cave dwelling ancestors reaching back into antiquity...leaving us only with imaginations to fill in the gaps of astronautical marvels of what surely occurred prior to 1969. <wink>
Cavan Man
(1/19/2001; 17:48:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 45951)
Trail Guide
What a wit! Look, nine holes anytime; name your club.
Best.....CM
PS: My people were potato farmers and very unlucky. As we're wont to say, we have about as many connections as, "a burnt fuse". My greatest luck has been to make your virtual acquaintance.
Cavan Man
(1/19/2001; 17:42:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 45950)
Trail Guide
Kind sir: I am flattered that you would even respond to such an obvious, sub-intellectual and emotional question. Why, I had just stopped by for a brief moment to state, what a wonderful venue to while away the hours (and years) waiting upon vindication of thought and belief. I thank you....CM
Randy (@ The Tower)
(1/19/2001; 17:28:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 45949)
New commentary can be found today at "The Rocket School of Economics"
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/RocketSchool/vonBraun.html
Click the link to gain access to the current commentary and to the archive index which contains an additional item today from the good Professor which I did not have previously...on the bursting of Wall Street's bubble.
RossL
(1/19/2001; 17:26:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 45948)
Christopher, Mr Gresham, barnacle bill, Hoosier, JavaMan, all
We could move the market. According to Randy's (msg#: 45938), If about 29580 of USAGOLD readers all second mortgaged our houses for $100000 each, we could buy up just about the net amount of gold that left the USA in the last year. That would really goose those paper traders! (not investment advice) -- <grin>
Randy. 200 tons a year for 5000 years. I don't know how the pyramids were built either. They look impossible to me also.
RossL
(1/19/2001; 17:23:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 45947)
Peter Asher, msg#: 45883
Consider this another second for your nomination. Al Fulchino's msg#: 45880 is a powerful treatise on why all of us should shun the purveyors of paper money. Civilization was built on hard money. The last 100 years on this planet have been a great time of turmoil as paper money has corrupted all the political institutions.
WilloTheWarthog
(1/19/2001; 17:17:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 45946)
Tailguide and C-man
I haven't posted here in a long time, I've just been too busy sorting out some other things. But I've been looking through the posts lately, because things seem to be heating up a bit in the markets. I wrote this letter to Bill Fleckenstein last night, because I think there is another possibility of what Al Greenspan is up to. So since you're thinking about Greenspan, and for what it's worth, here's my letter:
...ooOoo...
Hi Bill,
After reading your column tonight, my wife and I
talked about Al Greenspan. We both remember reading
some of his writings from the '60s. His philosophy is
diametrically opposed to his job function, as he is an
objectivist libertarian! My wife brought up an
interesting idea: if you've read Ayn Rand's "Atlas
Shrugged", you will certainly remember the character
of Francisco d'Anconia, who fought the system by
helping it to collapse under its own weight. Now, Al
was a cohort of Ayn Rand's. What if he is a real-life
Francisco d'Anconia? I started reading about him on
the web, and I found this: 'According to Nathaniel
Branden, Rand's one-time "intellectual heir",
Greenspan has said in recent years he still would like
America to be on the gold standard.'
(http://www.interlog.com/~grantsky/greenspan.html)
...and this:
'From the start of his political career, questions
have arisen about Greenspan's political beliefs.
Shortly after his appointment to the Council of
Economic Advisors, he was asked on "Meet the Press"
whether he had changed his opinion, published years
earlier in a Nathaniel Branden Institute pamphlet,
that anti-trust laws ought to be abolished. He replied
forthrightly that he continued to believe they should
be, but he was well aware that such a move would be
politically unpalatable for the foreseeable future.'
(http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/taeso97a.htm)
From the same article:
'Greenspan had recommended to a Senate committee that
all economic regulations should have fixed lifespans.
Senator Paul Sarbanes (D-Md.) accused him of "playing
with fire, or indeed throwing gasoline on the fire,"
and asked him whether he favored a similar provision
in the Fed's authorization. Greenspan coolly answered
that he did. Do you actually mean, demanded the
senator, that the Fed "should cease to function unless
affirmatively continued?" "That is correct, sir,"
Greenspan responded. "All right," the senator came
back, "the Defense Department?" "Yes." The Senator
could scarcely believe his ears. "Now my next question
is, is it your intention that the report of this
hearing should be that Greenspan recommends a return
to the gold standard?" Greenspan responded, "I've been
recommending that for years, there's nothing new about
that…. It would probably mean there is only one vote
in the Federal Open Market Committee for that, but it
is mine." '
...and this last one-'Barbara Branden observes, "Alan
believes in the art of the possible." '
I know he sounds whacked, but what if he really knows
what he's doing? In the last part of Atlas Shrugged,
after Dagny Taggart and Hank Reardon hear the news
that d'Anconia Copper has been totally destroyed by an
explosion, they read Francisco's note left on a
calendar: "You asked for it, brother".
JavaMan
(1/19/2001; 17:01:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 45945)
HOOSIER GOLDBUG...
I think you're on to something there. Ultimately, it will come down to an issue of the supply and demand of physical gold and a strategy of orderly acquisition over time via disposable income when adopted by enough people will be the death knell for those who would try to manage the price of gold through other means.
Consistent with Al Fuchino's recent post, nothing else is going to have an impact.
Carry on, Sir.
Trail Guide
(1/19/2001; 16:53:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 45944)
Reply
USAGOLD (01/18/01; 19:34:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 45876)
To FOA. . .A challenging question from the C-Man. . . .
Michael,
Thank you for inviting me up here, on stage. I'll offer some frank discussion to Mr. Cavan Man's challenging question. Only, I hope my oratory doesn't drive the audience from their seats. (smile)
---------
Hello everyone,
I assume you were all given and have reviewed USAGOLD's #45876. Good, then we can get right into it.
C/Man's permanent question is; "Why doesn't Greenspan do something about this? He must see what's coming."!
This crosses all the endless boundaries of political vs human wants and needs. Any answer to such a question exposes our own reality of just how much we all live together and compete together. As I mentioned before; we all are floating down the same river of life,,,,, bickering and debating, living and working,,,, even taking each other into court and war,,,,,, and doing all this as our floats ride the same current of water to it's destine end.
To better understand my replies, let me profile myself a bit. In both the physical and mental image.
The physical:
Am obviously a male and in the second half century of my life.
Have been married only once, to the same wonderful woman for several decades.
I am religious, understand the bible and do physical deeds to convey that knowledge to others.
I strive to live a moral life in every physical sense.
Am in good health and work at treating others as I want them to treat me.
The mental
By some gift of destiny, I know the people world around me. Perhaps better than some?
At all times I am intensely aware of the diversity of human life we all must operate within.
Myself and each of us have our right and wrong codes we live by and these are not always the same.
Yet, and because of this, society as a whole must function thru consensus or make war.
I fully well understand a successful person's (and nation's) feeling that they alone made their way in this world thru hard work and self sacrifice,,,,,, and I admire that pride and courage.
I also well understand that, by far, 99% of these people got where they are at with luck and good fortune,,,,,, more so than their special talents or moral good deeds.
And too, I bridge boundaries of thought, without judgment, in order to promote a common good.
So,
From that "heavy" description, I'll lighten the room a bit with a true short story I find most remarkable for it's human clarity, scope and definition as it applies to all of us (smile):
------I was once at a bar in a very exclusive, very private country club. In this part of the club there were no waiters, only a large team of bartenders that always stayed behind the bar. They would be fired, on the spot if they walked onto the small club floor. By code, this area required members to get their own drinks for ourselves and others. Kind of a step-down from the "big life" so as to bring us back to "regular status". The talk was very friendly and no business discussed.
A new guy, who I'll refer to as "newguy", had just come of age (new money) and wanted his place in the group. I think he was Australian, if my memory is correct. Standing at the bar, within a crowd, he boasted openly about his new boat, 14 meters+/-, and how cheap it was to operate. Conveying a sense of wealth availability. "At this rate I could have several",,,,,,, he said this with a smile and an honest intent. But I (and other older men) knew his motives were as usual for fresh money. After a short chat, he felt like he was fitting in and really making his position felt.
Then, (I'm laughing as I recall this) another much older member strolled up for a drink, just catching the tail end of newguy's talk. Now, you have to understand, this other fella was world class wealthy, but you would never know it. His way was always light and easy. He poked his head into
the group and told newguy,,,,, in a low gravely voice:
---"Boy, you made a good decision on that one! I also down sized to one of those little boats. Saved me a tonne of aggravation. Hell, I now have the rest of my slip rented out to two other members. Good for them for having the space,,,, and good for you for doing the same. You know, the world doesn't need attitudes like we used to have. Good un Mate! (as he walked away)------
Ha! Ha! Ha!,,,,, everyone around newguy kept a straight face as he kept the beer mug at his lips, while looking at us over the top. Then he lowered the glass and said with a straight face,,,,,, ----"He's right, ya know!"----
Ha! Ha! Ha!--- then we all had a great laugh -----------
Ok, where was I?
That story not only tells us who we are in society, but how we react against competition in society. Sometimes the act is extended into a life long play. The above little interaction is carried out in board rooms and on the street,,,,,,, at the CIA and between nation states. No matter if one is rich or poor,,,,,, buying and selling countries or teacups,,,,, operating businesses or pickup trucks,,,,, we all do our part to "puff up" as a defense against the world we perceive is out there. We adapt into
the social and business flow that's at hand. The norm of the occasion,,,,, and the political reality that's in our world around us. Our personal codes of life are often at odds with the consensus of the diverse world we must operate in. Such is life!
You see, in real life, we must often take on the appearance of that world around us. This action isn't lying or cheating so much as it is trying to act out a play that is essential in dealing within our hugely diverse society. A society, by the way, that is mostly made up of people that aren't "the good ones" as we so often perceive ourselves to be.(smile)
This line of comment now lays a foundation that takes me to politics. As I have come to understand the captain at the helm,,,, the driver of the corporation,,,,,, the general at the controls,,,,, they are all just like us. Working outside our personal moral standing standards, they must function using a diverse crew that's usually not of the same thought. Do these leaders lie and cheat if the stress becomes great enough? Of course, how do you think the ,,,, workers of different moralities are jostled to perform,,,, the job gets done and profits get made,,,,,, ! Do these bosses all get caught? No, the ones we extol as "good ones" don't.
Does the democrat tax and spend? No more than the republican borrows and spends! Is your group's moral or business objectives correct for the country? Only if they apply to the whole diverse society. Otherwise, you are imposing a will upon others.
Now, with that overview in mind:
Is Alan Greenspan doing everything he can to oversee a fiat banking system while functioning within our political society? I can answer that with .9999% certainty. Yes! In fact, throw a few extra 999s on that answer (smile).
You see, a nations rules, laws and moral requirements are never more than a consensus vote from changing. In such an environment, no leader can function for long at his own or our own standards. The office, itself is a reflection of power groups pushing their own position and that requires us to make our personal codes just that, personal codes. Not public codes.
Any person of clear vision could stand upon the highest mountain, look 360, and see that this country is not the same body it started from. Our codes of conduct, perceptions of right vs wrong and even our attitudes of wealth have all been diluted from other sources. This is not to say it's
good or bad, as this dilution often comes from foreign political perceptions that preceded our nation' history. In some ways, it predates many generations. Right or wrong, good or bad, some of these accepted political directions have been used a long time.
Mr. G. is not trying to make us something we as a group are not. He cannot. His objective is to support, prolong and protect our financial system as it must operate in it's present evolution. Make no mistake, he and every leader in his position understands that fiat money systems are always in evolution. There is not and never has been a status quo when it comes to a nation's money. Recent history is ripe with such change, even during the usage of gold within the currency stable.
I can assure all of you that our fed chief does not confuse a strong vs week dollar with a stable fiat money system. This current strong vs week dynamic, happening over the span of 20+/- years is little more than wafting from bank to bank as we ride the river that is our currencies timeline. Our
dollar is evolving even as our society evolves. It's use as a world reserve and even as a medium of exchange was never written in some code of world conduct or acceptance. Circumstance and consensus will change any currencies worth regardless of who manages it's trip through time and space.
So, there you have C-Man. I wish you had asked earlier? Because; "I didn't know there was a problem." (smile)
TrailGuide
Randy (@ The Tower)
(1/19/2001; 16:28:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 45943)
Cavan Man asks, "You're a "goldbug" aren't you?"
Have ice in my veins
More often than not;
And custard for brains,
Or so I once thought.
Had no opinion;
Open-minded start.
No "goldbug" minion;
Justified "Goldheart"!
I would be inclined to suggest that anyone willing to begin a journey of unbiased thought on the significant Earthly matters of the Here and Now as a natual consequence and extension of all deeds Past will find that all roads lead to gold. Seek for the sake of seeking, and you shall arrive in due course to a place where you find gold at every turn.
Randy (@ The Tower)
(1/19/2001; 15:55:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 45942)
A simple notion for barnacle bill
Inspired by your comment:
"...until there is a clearer picture on the Marcos Gold situation. If those million tons of gold are really there; and they are in the camp of the enemy, then this manipulation can go on indefinitely."
As can be gleened from my last post, the most powerful nation on Earth -- blessed with a large and technologically clever populace, abundant natural resources, and a vast network of supportive infrastructure -- is only able to produce 355 tonnes of gold per year through the highly scrutinized efforts of its publically owned mining corporations. Fanciful notions notwithstanding, where in space and time did mankind EVER find either the human inclination or capability to gather a million tonnes of gold from the firm embrace of Mother Earth?
Certainly, do not trust the precision of the conventionally accepted numbers of 130,000 tonnes as sum total of all past accumulations, but they come nearer the mark than the output numbers that could only be achieved through the efforts of Paul Bunyan and Babe, his blue ox. (I have it on good authority that Mr. Bunyan spent his days lumberjacking, not secretly mining or panning.) Let your common sense as born and raised unto the physical world be your guide in this and all things... Numbers are, after all, just numbers.
Cavan Man
(1/19/2001; 15:53:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 45941)
Big Oil
is up significantly today.
Cavan Man
(1/19/2001; 15:52:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 45940)
Randy
You're a "goldbug" aren't you? Me2.
JavaMan
(1/19/2001; 15:38:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 45939)
Hello Slingshot...
I think you've touched on something that we haven't heard much about which is the status of physical gold availability and its price (premium) over the last couple of weeks since the price has slumped yet once again.
Seems to me that the price of coins have held their premium despite the drop in the spot price lately. Hmmmm.
On availability, perhaps your plan of acquisition is ok, it may be your choice of vendor you need to re-think.
On Sir Peter's nomination of Al Fulchino's msg#: 45880...
I'll offer a second to that nomination. I think the following snippet was particularly on the mark:
"We calculate all manner of means to understand why gold is not valued higher, when it will go higher etc. Waste of time. Total waste of time. True value of sound money is not a supply and demand issue it is and always has been an honesty issue."
Randy (@ The Tower)
(1/19/2001; 15:25:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 45938)
The Tower's look at today's release of U.S. International Trade data & GOLD
With values measured in units called dollars, America's shortfall of value in exported goods and services compared to the value we imported was chalked on the wall at $33.0 billion for the month of November. The blessing in all of this is that, once again, America was allowed to compensate its trading partners for this shortfall by simply crediting the foreign accounts with 33 billion of these meausuring units (dollars) that we can print or create digitally.
Thus far, our record-setting trade shortfall remains the $33.7 billion mark set two months earlier in September (revised data for October came in at $33.6 billion). And with one month of statistics remaining before the year 2000 is officially in the books, the overall trade deficit is on pace for a $366 billion shortfall, shattering 1999's record of "only" $265 billion by more than $100 billion. Wow.
Specifically, the preliminary numbers for the month of November revealed by the Department of Commerce today measured the month's total export value at
$90.4 billion and imports at $123.3 billion.
AND NOW GOLD
From the perspective which is of interest to this forum, we are also running an imbalance in international gold trade, meaning, more outflow than inflow. Gold exported in November was up $91 million in book value from October levels, to $0.559 billion. In contrast, November imports of gold was only $211 million. That translates to a net gold outflow of $338 million; approx 39 tonnes.
Year-to-date balance of the gold trade reveals a NET gold OUTFLOW of $2.958 billion, representing very approximately 330 tonnes. With annual U.S. gold mining providing only approx 355 tonnes, any outflow figures for December comparable to what have just now been revealed for November will mean that the equivalent of ALL new U.S. gold was sent abroad, and then some.
Conclusion from these numbers, as the "richest" nation on Earth, and with the farthest to fall in a crisis, we sure seem to hold our own paper as unimpeachable, do we not? Are you willing to trust your own hard-earned wealth (and your future security which it represents) to the fate of the world's confidence in our currency?
Foreign trade partners have really upped their call for our available gold supplies. While figures through November for 1999 revealed demand for $4.458 billion in gold, the year 2000's numbers are 21% higher, coming in at $5.414 billion which has been exported year-to-date.
Be a nation unto yourself and follow this worldly example. They are getting their share of earned wealth in gold. Are you getting yours?
No one will make your decisions for you to take action one way or the other...but we do try to equip you with the best information. The rest is up to you. Know this: the kind folks at Centennial are at your service, waiting to do your bidding.
HOOSIER GOLDBUG
(1/19/2001; 15:21:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 45937)
the GREATEST plan!!!!!!!
Way to go slingshot! You are talking my kind of plan!
Accumulate gold over time all the time, every week, every year, every DAY, every next time! TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE! HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE TO BREAK THE GOLD PAPER GAME IF WE HAVE COMMITTED PEOPLE TO TAKE IT OFF THE TABLE? I have got time, if not, then my sons have time, if not, then my grandchildren have time. They are not going anywhere! I WILL TAKE THE LEAD AND TEACH THE WAY! This is where, in my opinion is where GATA is ALL WRONG. JUST MY OPINION!
slingshot
(1/19/2001; 14:42:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 45936)
THE GOLD DAM HAS A LEAK
This may not mean much to you big timers, but, I just went to buy my regular amount of gold eagles 1oz., and there were none. Questioned the dealer about it and he stated he can not keep them in the case. also one week order time. I had a set plan of procurement, now it seems I have to rethink the plan. Did somebody wake up! I am going to have fun with this behind the scenes rally. Wonder how many more are thinking like me.
GO GOLD!
ORO
(1/19/2001; 14:31:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 45935)
Copper Silver conduction
The copper-silver relationship in conductivity lets you gain up to a 10% savings in energy at high currents and voltage. At current prices of silver and current prices of electricity, some high power short runs might be replaceable with silver or silver-copper lines, freeing up some minor energy for other users.
Christopher
(1/19/2001; 14:29:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 45934)
barnacle bill
I saw a program not too many weeks ago about the continued search for Yamashita's Gold in and around the Philippines. Very interesting, wish I had the opportunity to be a part of those expeditions. I believe the program estimated the amount of Gold still buried to be in the Billions.
I think though, since Sir journeyman graciously declined to cosign my loan, I will be paying cash on the barrellhead for my future ASSET purchases.
p.s. The other day I had a show and tell at the local waffle house with the waitress, myself and a K-rand. She picked it up and tried to open it. She thought it was a piece of chocolate.
Regards,
Christopher
Christopher
(1/19/2001; 14:18:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 45933)
Mr. Gresham, Journeyman
Mr. Gresham,
Yes, I see a point that you made about the "Strong Hands" policy of FOA. It is not of his opinion to buy and sell for a quick profit, or to buy and be forced to liquidate portions to pay ones way out of an unexpected Jam. But to Buy and be financially "strong" enough to hold without someone or something ripping it from those hands. That almost insinuates that FOA believes there will be factors arising which could pull gold away from those with weak financial foundations-topic for another discussion I guess.
Of course, one other topic for discussion, and one that has been brought up before, is how, in the end, will we utilize our gold that we have held onto to our financial benefits?
But I digress. I also agree that a fixed rate mortgage type would be better that credit cards for such an undertaking as this. Thanks for sharing your mind with me this afternoon.
Journeyman,
It all, in a way seems as a gamble to me- a gamble of how longs. How long do you hold your excess FRN's before exchanging them into Gold. HOw long will you be able to accumulate this specific asset before it can't be accumulated at any price. 15 years, 15 days, the estimates are as varied as the number of crashing dot.cons. And being a man of very modest means, I sometimes feel that time runneth out. As Mr. Gresham said it is hard being a contrarian. The only advantage to being a sheeple is the knowledge that at the last you will not be the only one swinging from the lamppost.
Though I do not feel we as contrarians will swing. Only time will tell.
Thanks for the thought provoking discussion this afternoon.
Warm regards,
Christopher
Gandalf the White
(1/19/2001; 14:17:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45932)
>=============>>> GCG01= $265.3
Also, we will have another contest to guess the price of gold for the February contract at the close Friday, January 26, 2001. All entries must be posted, however, by midnight (MST) Tuesday, January 23, 2001. The winner will be the one whose arrow falls most closely to the mark. All price guesses must be accompanied by sound reasons for your prediction to gain the prize.
=====SOUND reasons ? How about just written ones ? <;-)
OK--It will be the same go no where COMEX market UNTIL after the start of the GWB era. AND, nothing will happen for a period of time as the new administration will be using trial balloons for a while. SOMETHING, will happen to awake the Sheeple that INFLATION is here in SPADES ! BUT, that will be a later story. Please send my winning Ag Eagle asap.
---
<;-)
auspec
(1/19/2001; 14:04:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 45931)
**** 2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey? ****
Show Me The Rooster!
What will the year 2001 bring for the gold markets? Let's start with the definition of an "odyssey" from Webster's: "a long wandering usually marked by many changes of fortune". In this case the gold markets will entail a total loss of fortune and a wandering that will make Moses’ look like an afternoon stroll. What is it with you flat-earthers, are you stuck in some time warp or something? Plain and simple—the POG will reach its proper COMMODITY value of $192 in 2001 and stay there, thus vindicating Robt Prechter and bringing him front and center CNBC. Long live King Dollar!
I don't say this lightly , but with careful thought and much study…………..THE TREND IS YOUR FRIEND! What more does one need to know? Let's see, who should I put my money on? 1. Those that have all the gold , make all the rules, and totally control the global economy/mindset. 2. Some flaky, anti-establishment, wishful thinking, internuts with delusions of "goldeur". This GATA group is really something else---some X-Jock, a Jimmy Olson wannabe, and a lawyer/miner taking on the eminent protectors of sound money and utmost principals. I don't see a contest! Give me Rubin, Green$pandex, and Luis Ruykeyser {sp} any day.
What is this foolish gold fixation??? Obsessive compulsive disease? We are in a perpetual prosperity period and you guys shouldn't be rocking the boat. If anything malfunctions it will be YOUR fault. If there was any sort of problem Maria Bartoromo would be telling us loud and clear. I think you hard money guys are overcompensating for other deficiencies in your lives! You know there are medications for OCD and other "failures" {fix that damn erudition}. Just buy the drug stocks like normal folks do, and sit back and await your fortune. Why do you think all these mutual funds/stocks are Federally insured?
Politics? What's to predict? Total competency everywhere one looks. Dubya is there, as well as a couple unofficial "Shadow Presidents", plus the PuppetMasters; what could possibly go wrong? The people with the real brains and credentials have thought all this out fully! Trust them!
Let me make sure I understand upon what this site is basing its premises.Some guy posts anonymously and explains all of the supposed interworkings of the world's monetary system. This guy has an anonymous amigo that further elucidates the other unknown guy's unclear writings, neither of which speak or write the King's English. Put all of this in the context of some ancient Castle/Jousting/Knights and what do you get? What a country! Now they are offering FREE gold and silver. Let's be reasonable here...... It can't be worth much if it's free, RIGHT? Have YOU ever received any free gold?? Stick with the crowd, there's safety in numbers, leave your emotions out of this. If these guys really knew anything they would be on Giraldo or Oprah.
Bottom line--------- 2001 will definitely be "interesting times"!
Got GOLD??
Got GATA??
barnacle bill
(1/19/2001; 14:00:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 45930)
re: Credit Card Gold Msg. #'s 45869 45902
I did what you are contemplating when the Bank of England first announced they were going to sell 40% of the nations' gold. First I foolishly went to a bank and explained the the loan officer ( some 27 year old optimist who knew nothing of economic history) that I would like to borrow 300,000 dollars. She wanted to know what for. So I explained to her what was going on in the gold market. I told her that the bank would hold the gold as collateral, and I would simply have to keep the interest payments current. Like most everyone else she gave me the village idiot look. She said the bank could not colatteralize the loan. At that time I felt that gold would skyrocket anyday now. Instead of buying 1,000 Oz of gold, I settled for 10 not-too-far-out-of the money call options. I mainted this position for one year. You know the ending.
I think J.M. Keynes once said:"Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."
I also did what you are contemplating with my credit cards, except that with credit cards I bought physical. Your plan does have merit IMHO, but I would not consider it at this time until there is a clearer picture on the Marcos Gold situation. If those million tons of gold are really there; and they are in the camp of the enemy, then this manipulation can go on indefinitely.
I don't know what to tell you beyond that, but good luck to you whatever you do.
megatron
(1/19/2001; 13:44:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 45929)
Technical charting
Once again, the charts cannot lie, especially with commodities. Lots of funny action in silver and related stocks.
Mr Gresham
(1/19/2001; 13:32:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 45928)
Peter, Christopher
Peter, that was a fantastic post on our language, thank you!
Christopher -- might make a difference if interest rate was fixed instead of variable, you know, Prime rate plus. Fixed would be sort of like a mortgage (or car loan), and you're holding the goods, just like a house. Don't know as I would go for a 125% mortgage, though, nor a variable rate one. It's all about sleeping well at night. Stress REDUCTION!
Interest rates are likely to do some nasty gyrations as credit markets implode.
And I guess it's also about an investment at its bottom price passing "from weak hands to strong hands." Credit money is "scared money" and characterizes speculation usually at the top of a bubble. In this case -- real asset and market bottom (?) -- that would be two plusses in comparison to the stock bubble, favoring using credit.
When FOA counsels getting out of debt, he's thinking of "strong hands" holding gold. Naturally, those of us still in the working years are looking for a jump on our retirement "portfolios", aren't we? We might be looking at it differently, with time as an asset to put up against taking greater risk.
Paper to physical, paper to physical. Somebody else's paper, yes, you've got to think more carefully. Understand your whole financial picture, and have a Plan B. If it's a good one..
You realize that FOA has not been talking the classic "asset allocation" model we've been hearing all these years, don't you? Gold either rockets, or it doesn't. You can always convert back to the paper world, if it doesn't, right?
The risk/reward, if our analysis is correct, is pretty clear. It's our ability to analyze that's in play here on our Forum, isn't it? To visualize and prepare for the discontinuous event that's been shouted and whispered in your ears every day of your life as heretical, crazy, can't happen. It HURTS to be a contrarian!
The dollar forces have held on by remarkable tenacity, squeezing the last out of their once-in-a-lifetime franchise. But the wealthiest class went international long ago -- the dollar is but their tool and plaything. The right things will be said and presented to the public, while they jockey for position on a different playing field.
As when a dictator falls, El Presidente will make a confident speech on the National Television, just prior to boarding a helicopter to his waiting jet packed full with the National Treasury, in gold.
ThaiGold
(1/19/2001; 12:43:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 45927)
Added: PONZI & SDR Charts Link
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/index.htm
...
..
.
Thanks RossL.
It's now linked there. Look at the middle item on the right side.
Sorta like One-Stop-Shopping, for everyone's efforts.
RossL
(1/19/2001; 12:26:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 45926)
ThaiGold
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
ThaiGold, the Ponzi and SDR chart are here.
Thanks.
Journeyman
(1/19/2001; 12:21:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 45925)
What is wrong with my scenario @Christopher msg#: 45902
Hi Christopher!
I see you've moved much closer to the head of the class!!
"Anyway, my original idea was to max out my credit cards by
purchasing the only thing I can think of that would guarantee me
being able to retire that debt once the inflation set in- Gold
coins." -Christopher
Please don't make this move on my say-so! I would be most
uncomfortable living with the "karma." Please remember such
gambles are inescapably your own because you're the one who will
live with the results of your bets. I NEVER make major bets such
as the one you are contemplating without a LOT of study! Nor
without thoroughly considering and imagining living with the loss
of that bet!
There's nothing wrong with your gamble that you didn't point out
yourself:
"In this theoretical-historical scenario, one _might_ be able to
... pay for them with a fraction of an ounce of that first
acquired by this means." -Christopher
_Might_ is a very BIG word!
One problem with the credit-card version is you pay A LOT for
that money, which means you need a bigger edge to make such a bet
profitable in probablistic terms.
Then there is the sense here at USAGOLD that most of us seem to
be convinced that some sort of dollar melt-down is just around
the corner. But there are a lot of true believers here. I'm
one. So I'm at least slightly biased. Unfortunately for me, I
believe the system is functionally "evil" and so I find myself
constantly hoping for a "correction." This may be clouding my
judgement, though I painstakingly attempt to prevent that from
happening. Almost certainly most of the regular posters here
share this bias somewhat - - - so, you're not getting a balanced
opinion.
Some of my "balancing" friends consider a major dollar crash with
a major gold super-bull "un-thinkable." Greenspan doesn't
necessarily agree. None-the-less, some of my more sophisticated
"balancers" suggest the probability of such an event is somewhere
beyond the forth standard deviation.
On the other hand, it does seem lately that much main-stream
media (and reported events) seem to be in line with some of the
more radical scenarios we talk about here.
But then there's timing. As many posters here have pointed out,
gold is highly political. "They" don't dare let gold rise until
after the inflation hits (assuming they can prevent the price
from rising, and the processes by which they can, seem to exist
and be in play -- BOE Eddy George's comment in Howe's suit, etc.)
and no one can anticipate the psychology that will cause "them"
to break, let alone _when_ all this is going to happen (even
"they" don't know) - - IF it happens at all. You _could_ end-up
paying more than your profit in interest (or opportunity costs.)
All that said, to the extent you leave your assets, (past,
present or future) in dollars, you're gambling the dollar won't
depreciate significantly. Additionally, you absolutely know that
the dollar _will_ depreciate year after year, at the rate of
inflation - - - even if they spin it as "disinflation."
Have I left you confused and uncertain? I certainly hope so. My
"karma" considerations, remember!
Regards and good "luck,"
Journeyman
ThaiGold
(1/19/2001; 11:52:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 45924)
Attn: $HIFTY & RossL.
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/index.htm
...
..
.
Hi $hifty
I've spent the morning adding alot more news and info links
to my HomePage, that may be of interest to Posters & Lurkers
and am wondering what's the url to your PONZI index.
If it's okay with you, I'll put a link to it there.
Also (RossL.) I can add a link to your special charts too
if you'd like. If so please post the url or email it to me.
PS: If ANYONE has a favorite link you'd like added there,
just let me know.
PPS: You will now find quick links to all the Gold Forums
right there in one handy mouse-klik spot.
Thanks Both and All
Enjoy..
ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com
megatron
(1/19/2001; 11:44:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 45923)
Silver vs NG
Let's take a look at the presently 'manufactured' situation with NG. Driven by 'altruistic aims' the free market was temporarily suppressed in order to buy off the idiots who waste time voting. Now the 'price'of silver is so low it's tempting companies to start to utilize the 'cheap' silver in thier products. And we are now witnesing what that does
(NG and Palladium). If the 2 largest utilities in the US and the banks who underwrote them and the 'genius'' who run bond funds could not model this scenario, guess what's going to happen to silver? The last time I looked Natural gas and palladium were NON-MONETARY METALS. Once companies start using high conductivity metals that are 'cheap' they CANNOT GO BACK.(quickly). The supply/demand imbalance of silver is far beter than NG and can only be rectified in a far more violent price environment and much longer time frame.
auspec
(1/19/2001; 11:42:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 45922)
USAGOLD
My goodness, good man! First "free gold", now "free silver"! Does Gandalf know of this outrageousness? These must surely be boom times. My children {11 of em} don't get home from school until later this afternoon. Do they each have to make up a seperate essay? Maybe we can have a class project for each of them. Let's see 11 X 24 = 264 X $8.75 = $2,302. That ought to just about do it, do I have to pay shipping?
SHIFTY
(1/19/2001; 11:34:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 45921)
Peter Asher
Peter where did you learn all that interesting stuff ? It makes you wonder about history repeating itself.
In this case
Lets hope not.
$hifty
auspec
(1/19/2001; 11:29:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 45920)
@ Peter Asher
Thanks for the English expressions, always a treat. Our words have so much underlying meaning that is often overlooked. A couple come to mind that are applicable to our favorite markets: hanging by the skin of our teeth, intestinal fortitude or worth its weight in gold.
I always thought "trench mouth" came from the trenches of WW1 when very poor oral hygiene was practiced, resulting in this obnoxious infirmity. Question--- Are these "euphemisms" of which we speak?
USAGOLD
(1/19/2001; 11:27:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 45919)
Hear Ye. . . .Hear Ye. . . . A Call to Contest. . .
A test of your thinking, predicting and posting skills to occur from now until midnight (MST) on Tuesday, January 23rd. We stand at the first month of a new millennium, a time to stop and think what the future might bring. So the contest is simple as it is challenging:
To wit: Will 2001, a market Odyssey, be a positive one for gold or a negative one? Is this the year of the big breakout? More of the same? A disaster? You make the call, support it with knowledge, skill and erudition and the prize is yours!
We ask contestants to treat the potential economic, political and financial scenarios as a basis for their opinion. We stand at a threshold -- not just of a new century but a time of uncertainty as the winds of change sweep through the world economy. There could be no better time for a contest with such a theme than now.
Your post must be at least 30 words and it must contain in the subject box the following:
**** 2001 -- A Gold Market Odyssey **** (Surrounded by stars.)
The prize will be a .1867 ounce pre-1933 French Rooster gold coin. There will be two runners-up who will receive a one ounce silver Eagle each.
Also, we will have another contest to guess the price of gold for the February contract at the close Friday, January 26, 2001. All entries must be posted, however, by midnight (MST) Tuesday, January 23, 2001. The winner will be the one whose arrow falls most closely to the mark. All price guesses must be accompanied by sound reasons for your prediction to gain the prize.
Also, all first-time posters will be awarded a one ounce silver Eagle if you post during the contest period -- from now until Tuesday midnight, January 23rd, 2001.
To qualify for the prize, you must e-mail jill@usagold.com confirmation citing the message number once you've made your first post. We will check each first-time poster's claim, so don't feel like you can get one by us.
We wish you good luck, good fortune. . . . . .And. . . . .
Let the contest begin!
The Hoople
(1/19/2001; 11:13:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 45918)
Journeyman, others
Home Depot miss was another first, like MSFT. Smart money (read: clued in ahead of time) was getting out ahead of announcement. I talk to reloads and DC's on Windsor/Canadian border who say Canadian mills are scouring for lease space on US side. Their quota quarter ends 3/31 and seem to want to flood product over the border thereafter. With Canadian subsidies of their mills and pro-union stance they have no motive to cut production. Hence, like many other commodities near record lower prices. Canfor, the largest Canadian mill allegedly lost money 10 years in a row yet like Barrick they seem to not want to do anything about it. Could they also be a "hannibal cannibal" type participant? Today's WSJ had a story about upper end home pricing falling and bidders drying up. (Weekend Journal section,p-1) In a recession sub-prime goes first (it already has) then custom and upper end is next (in progress) and lastly the bread and butter mortgage similar to rent payments. We seem to be in stage 2 approaching stage 3. In my county my building inspector told me that last November he issued 20 new home building permits, in December only 2. In January so far he has issued 1. Does this sound soft in the landing?
Randy (@ The Tower)
(1/19/2001; 11:04:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 45917)
Fed today used 6-day repurchase agreements to increase banking system reserves by $1.755 billion
The bulk of the collateral was provided by agencies and mortgage-backed securities.
Peter Asher
(1/19/2001; 11:01:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 45916)
@ BlackBlade @ all
This coincidentally came in today:
Send it on to the Grasshoppers who are feeling so abused and sorry for themselves.
Next time you are washing your hands and complain because the water temperature isn't just how you like it, think about how things used to be.......
Here are some facts from the 1500s.
Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the body odor.
Baths consisted of a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it, hence
the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Houses had thatched roofs-thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pet dogs, cats and the small animals: mice, rats & bugs - lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof, hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."
There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. Hence, a bed with big posts and a sheet hung over the top afforded some protection. That is how canopy beds came into existence.
The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence the saying "dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors that would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed in the entryway, hence a "threshold." They cooked in the kitchen with a big kettle that always
hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and did not get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a quite a while, hence the rhyme, "peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."
Sometimes they could obtain pork, which made them feel quite special. When visitors came over, they would hang up their bacon to show off. It was a sign of wealth and that a man "could bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat." Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food, causing lead poisoning and death. This happened most often with tomatoes, so for the next 400 years or so tomatoes were considered poisonous.
Most people did not have pewter plates, but had trenchers, a piece of wood, with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trenchers were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, one would get "trench mouth."
Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust." Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up, hence the custom of holding a "wake." England is old and small and they started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and reuse the grave. When reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night (the "graveyard shift") to listen for the bell, thus, someone could be "saved by the bell," or was considered a "dead ringer."
SHIFTY
(1/19/2001; 10:51:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 45915)
Old Yeller
Gold Fields takeover rumours
Franco Nevada's merger may not be dead. Keep your fingers crossed.
$hifty
Old Yeller
(1/19/2001; 10:42:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 45914)
Gold Fields takeover rumours
It is extremely disheartening to hear of Barrick and Anglogold,the two evil stepsisters of the gold industry hovering over Gold Fields.The South African government may rue the day they nixed fellow non-hedger Franco Nevada's merger proposal over what seemed at the time to be somewhat minor concerns.
auspec
(1/19/2001; 10:18:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 45913)
The Bait?
Does anyone else remember the 1995 {approx} rumor that claimed our prez had some form of blind trust that was investing in gold resource stocks? Very costly rumor to lots of folks, wonder from whence it came?
Galearis
(1/19/2001; 10:09:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 45912)
@ Black Blade re silver demand....
Oh my, now relegated to a lowly lurker who must flit in briefly and out again like a moth that is singed with a flame. Life is so busy for me right now.....So why am I meandering around this thingy....
Sir Black Blade: trot yourself over to Gold Eagle and search out Ted Butler. Easy, yes?
Regards,
Galearis
Old Yeller
(1/19/2001; 9:40:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 45911)
mh chuck #45869-inflation/deflation
You wrote:
And as much as all indicators point to inflation,tomorrow the Fed might change it's mind and pull the plug.That is only one reason why this private and arbitrary system of money creation is so unfair.
Well said'sir.My friends and family often wonder why it is that I get so passionate and "worked up" about the US(and by extension of co-dependence;global)monetary system.Those two sentences neatly encapsulate the main reason.If I may be so impertinent to add to this;somewhat cynically,of course:
And as much as all indicators point to inflation,tomorrow the Fed might change it's mind and after fully informing business associates,influential long standing family dynasties,non-arms length government officials and others in the select circle;pull the plug.That is only one reason why this private and arbitrary system of money creation is so unfair.
ThaiGold
(1/19/2001; 9:37:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 45910)
FYI: Van Rip & R Powell
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/mkt-chrt.htm
Hi Van Rip:
Yes. It's my "test" website, where I experiment with stuff.
Try it now... I just revised the colors and decor a bit. (link above)
Hi Rich Powell:
Expect to see some "profit taking" (in Silver) today, as is
typical after a two-day runup. Also, it's a Friday/weekend,
and traders generally reverse their positions or close them
out pending the weekend break and uncertainty of that.
Also, that's good excuse-talk for clutz's like me who really
have no clue what's happening in those markets.
VanRip
(1/19/2001; 9:04:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 45909)
ThaiGold-Real Time Charts
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/index.htm
Thai,
Those charts are a gas. - Truly informative when seen together, especially when you toggle back and forth. And, yes, they are quite addictive. Many thanks. Is this your site? Fascinating.
R Powell
(1/19/2001; 8:51:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 45908)
Thanks
Thank you Black Blade and ThiaGold for the very plausible information on copper and silver which are both down as I type this. Rich
R Powell
(1/19/2001; 8:28:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 45907)
Sorry, 2nd try
http://www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html
Let me try again.
R Powell
(1/19/2001; 8:25:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 45906)
Lease Rates
http"//www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html
Are up again today. Fairly substantial increse especially in silver. The word on silver's four day rally is that it is/has been a "technical bounce". This may be true but this is also the standard response when the analyst or trader asked has absolutely no idea what's happening. It's like answering a child's question of Why with the answer Because. There was no large speculative short position to be covered before this move, there was a short commercial one (commercials are the producers and users of product). For whatever reason, if this continues, it may attract the fairly oblivious fund traders (speculative money) and then, if POS really advances, the thoughtless or totally oblivious momentum players.
If that happens gold goes too and I'll be busy promoting with an IPO a new Silver and Gold. com company. I'll need office staff and am taking applications. Pay is outrageously disproportionate with work involved and everyone recieves a new Mercedes and, of course, stock options. Our first corporate meeting will be to decide what if anything Silver and Gold.com does.
Watch the rates, they may be telling us something that the news hasn't figured out yet. When Warren Buffet bought silver in the summer and fall of 1997, he accumulated 89 million ounces before a lawsuit forced him to reveal his buying. He bought for months before discovered. He bought 129 million in total and shipped them to London. He may or may not still hold them. Maybe he or someone else wants more. Or maybe it's just a "technical bounce".
Rich
Journeyman
(1/19/2001; 8:14:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 45905)
Home Depot warns! @Hoople, ALL
Home Depot misses by 4 cents, from estimated 25 cents on slow building materials sales, etc.
Regards, J.
Journeyman
(01/19/01; 08:05:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 45904)
Yes indeedy! @Black Blade msg#: 45888
"In a Hyperinflationary environment, I would hope that my extremely "Precious" metals would carry me
through. After all, that is the insurance policy of having PMs in my portfolio. The Germans
(Ants?)who had gold during the 1920's did not suffer quite so much as their many of their
countrymen (Grasshoppers). The result was devastating enough as Adolf Hitler and friends emerged
to bring another horror to the world. Then of course, certain peoples of certain racial and ethnic
background who had gold, silver, diamonds, etc. were able to flee the terror with a bit more ease,
whereas their fellow countrymen of similar background fared rather poorly. To paraphrase a
common cheese commercial in the US, 'Ah, the power of Gold!'" -Black Blade msg#: 45888
You get no argument from me on this BB!!
Regards, J.
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 08:00:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 45903)
Attn: Journeyman
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/mkt-chrt.htm
Those little chart mantages are especially neat, now that
all the markets are open. (above link).
I'm addicted to them. Be sure to klik the arrowhead logo to
toggle the charts from stocks/bonds/etc to all-metals.
Christopher
(01/19/01; 07:59:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 45902)
mhchuck usagold #45869 Inflation and Debt
I see your point, and Journeyman's also, one can not forsee the future, but with so much money created in such a short time of seven weeks, is not the future quickly becoming the present. Anyway, my original idea was to max out my credit cards by purchasing the only thing I can think of that would guarantee me being able to retire that debt once the inflation set in- Gold coins.
Their increase in value in the hyperinflation scenario should allow me to pay off the debt with fractional amounts of the total purchased. Just like the agglomerators, you borrow the money, use it to build up your assets(them, plants - us, Gold) and with the inflated profits caused by extra generating capacity(them, because of their expanded manufacturing ability- us because of our expanded physical amount of assets) coupled with the hyperinflation, the debts are retired with ease, and profit is realized in a greater amount because of the use of OPM.
In this theoretical-historical scenario, one might be able to secure many ounces of physical through the means of credit and ultimately pay for them with a fraction of an ounce of that first acquired by this means.
Would this not solve the question of reliable future income to pay off the debt posed by Randy of the Tower? As long as one had enough reliable income to pay the bare minimum charge on the credit cards, until the hyperinflation (and Gold runup) scenario was fully upon him/her. And what if the hyperinflation scenario does not emerge? The person engaged in this leveraged deal would still have at hand the physical gold, and thereby the means to retire the debt with the same instrument that created the debt(if he/she wished), in addition to the income from his/her regular profession, which I would assume would still be in existence due to the absence of hyperinflation, and its effects.
Why not use the same game that they created against them?
What is wrong with my scenario Randy? Journeyman? Anyone?
Might this be the creation of the first reverse derivative, the opposite of what the BIS and the CBs' do-changing credit into Gold?
Regards,
Christopher
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 07:54:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 45901)
Next Shortage in Kalifornia...
... Education ...
Bush's new Secretary of Education will have to assist his
new Energy Secretary solve the domino Kalifornia problems:
Because:
"The Dog chewed up my homework"...
...is replaced by...
"Our lights went off."
Journeyman
(01/19/01; 07:32:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 45900)
California's power problems in a nutshell
When California deregulated, they ended up with more regulations than before
deregulation. California imports 20% of it's electricity. -Adrian Moore,
Reason Public Policy Institute, CNBC, Jan. 18, 2001, ~3:56PM EST
Regards, J.
Journeyman
(01/19/01; 07:27:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 45899)
Thanks @ThaiGold msg#: 45893
Regards, J.
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 06:55:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 45898)
Copper: Attn: Black Blade
http://www.mrci.com/qpday.htm
Hi Black Blade
Yes. Silver and Copper are the prefered Electrical conductors.
Silver far exceeds copper in conductivity, and is used for only
the most demanding and high-efficiency devices. Such as the
newest generation of generators. And alternators. Both will be
in high demand as the energy/electricity shortage causes an
increased demand for new generation facilities.
Oddly, this morning, Copper is down in price. (see above link).
Yet silver is soaring, (same link).
I attribute this to the fact that copper mines often have silver
as their byproduct. So, if copper miners ramp up their output
(of both) to capture more profits from silver, it will at the same
time flood the market with excess copper. Supply/demand.
Copper prices should fall. Silver's too, except that silver
is in great shortage. Whereas copper, typically, isn't.
ThaiGold
Black Blade
(01/19/01; 06:41:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 45897)
RE: ThaiGold - silver/metals
One of my friends works as a buyer(a former mining engineer) for a copper products operation (owned by a miner). He said that some clients were "looking hard" at "high conductivity" silver wire and possible alloy wires. He didn't elaborate, but said that several locked in copper and silver prices as if they knew something was up. I hope to hear from them this weekend, but maybe that's all they know. Certainly something is brewing in the underlying metals markets (base metals and precious metals). Who knows, maybe now that Captain Bubba is leaving the ship (kicking and screaming from what I saw last night - how embarrassing for the US), the old team that was putting a cap on metals prices just may give it a rest. The old boss is slinking outta the door.
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 06:38:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45896)
PPT's Last-Gasp Getting Underway
http://www.mrci.com/qpday.htm
The PPT typically buys these S&P 500 gadgets prior to the
NY Stock Market open, to pre-boost the DJIA DOW-30 index.
Today is their last-chance, under Clinton.
S&P 500 Futures Premium
2183.00
2303.00
1773.00
2253.00
+50.00
1/19/2001
5:14
BTW: That link to Silver's NY open, has a glitch. Disregard it
and use the above link instead for a few minutes.
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 06:08:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 45895)
Silver: Attn: Black Blade (01/19/01; 02:59:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 45891)
http://www.kitco.com/image/silver.gif
Hi Black Blade
Looks like Silver is going to open in NY "gap up". (above link).
SilverBugs have been harping about the horrendous shortage
of physical Silver for months. Weeks. Days. I could see that
something was in the wind a few weeks ago.
FYI: HECLA (HL/nyse) is a producing Gold & Silver miner.
One of my favorites. Three weeks ago, you could've bot shares
of it at 50-cents. Yesterday, it was trading over a Buck. Had
people listened, they could've doubled their (paper) money in
that time. Like I did. It's a $5 stock in good times. A steal at
these current all-time-low levels. IMHO.
ThaiGold
SHIFTY
(01/19/01; 05:09:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 45894)
DJ S. Africa's Gold Fields Up 9.0% On AngloGold Bid Talk
http://www.thebulliondesk.com/DJNews/4054541.htm
JOHANNESBURG (Dow Jones)--Shares in South Africa's Gold Field's Ltd. (GOLD) rallied 9.0% Friday amid speculation that AngoGold Ltd. (AU), the world's biggest producer, is poised to take over the country's number two producer.
"Gold Fields' Chris Thompson is just waiting for the call from AngloGold's Bobby Godsell to say how they're going to take them," according to a source close to Gold Fields.
Around 1000 GMT Gold Fields was ZAR1.70 higher ($1=ZAR7.9425), or 6.2%, at ZAR29.00, down from its 9.0% jump at ZAR29.75 earlier while AngloGold was ZAR5.40 higher, or 2.5%, at ZAR223.40.
Some watchers suggest bid talk is being circulated in the market by Gold Fields in an attempt to boost its share price ahead of a possible move by AngloGold.
"Whether the rumors are true or not, you can't discount it as a move by AngloGold for Gold Fields is imminent," said an analyst at a local securities house.
Speculation that Anglo American PLC. (AAUK), AngloGold's parent company, could make a move for Gold Fields has been mounting since mid-December.
Anglo American upped its stake in Gold Fields to just over 17% after a share swap with South Africa's Remgro Ltd. (O.REM), and that deal made Anglo American the biggest shareholder in Gold Fields.
Its 17% stake in Gold Fields now sits along side its 17% stake in Western Areas Ltd. (O.WAR), 17% in Avgold Ltd. (AVGLY), and a 54% holding in AngloGold.
Local talk centers on Canada's Barrick Gold Corp. (ABX) joining forces with AngloGold to take over the country's number two producer.
Market watchers, however, ruled out a straight tie up between Barrick and AngloGold due to logistical differences between the two companies. They say the odds are - should a deal emerge - that Barrick will play a secondary role and that AngloGold will strike for Gold Fields on its own.
"Everybody knows Barrick are in town, and they're desperate to get some ounces in their portfolio," said an analyst at an international securities house.
Barrick is seen as overpriced with a price-to-earnings ratio of 19.00, while AngloGold is seen as undervalued at 12.00. This casts doubt on a straight tie up between Barrick and AngloGold as Barrick's shareholders are unlikely to approve a sale that would lead to a down rating of the company's stock.
"Will Barrick's shareholders be happy to have their stock down rated? If anything AngloGold will just go for Gold Fields' on its own," said an analyst at an international securities house.
On an operational level, however, Barrick has expressed an interest in South Africa's Western Areas South Deep mine, where Anglo American holds a 17% stake. Barrick is said to have completed a number of studies on the mine, and with the possible sale of AngloGold's stake in Western Areas the money could help finance the takeover of Gold Fields, say analysts.
JCI Gold Ltd. holds some 40% of Western Areas Ltd., with Canada's Placer Dome owning 50%. However, Placer Dome has a preemptive right to match any offers for the remaining half stake.
Even so, there are potential synergies to be had between Western Areas and Gold Fields' 1.4 million ounces per year Kloof operation. More importantly, this could pave the way for AngloGold to take Gold Fields' 1.4 million ounces per year Driefontein mine, and with Gold Fields broken up the risk of antitrust issues being raised by the South African Finance Ministry is also reduced.
Both Barrick and AngloGold declined to comment on the speculation.
Gold Fields has been a potential target since its proposed $3.7 billion merger with Canada's Franco-Nevada Mining Corp. (T.FN) was dashed by the finance ministry in August. However, the merger is said to be back at the ministry for another reading and the company is hoping the deal can be resurrected.
ThaiGold
(01/19/01; 04:45:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 45893)
Convenient Real-Time Charts
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/index.htm
All:
Here's a convenient way to see all the near-real-time daily and
24-hour activity in some of the essential markets.(above link).
I've updated the first two links on that HomePage, labeled:
Metals Market Charts
-and-
Latest Market Charts.
Klik on either one, then it's easy to toggle to the opposite one
by kliking on the square logo at the right side of the charts.
Or, you can simply bookmark either of these to go directly to:
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/mkt-chrt.htm
-or-
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/mkt-chr2.htm
Enjoy..
ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com
Black Blade
(01/19/01; 03:39:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 45892)
California Struck by More Blackouts
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010118/us/power_woes_93.html
By JOHN HOWARD, Associated Press Writer
SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) - California cut off power to thousands of people for a second straight day Thursday as lawmakers rushed to enact emergency legislation to buy electricity at taxpayer expense and keep the lights on.
Californians stocked up on flashlights, generators and firewood as the northern half of the state was struck by rolling blackouts. The outages were expected to affect one million customers at a time for at least an hour. The blackout order could be expanded to the south, said Stephanie McCorkle, a spokeswoman for the Independent System Operator, keeper of the state's power grid. ``It really feels like deja vu today,'' McCorkle said. ``We are living hour by hour here.'' The blackouts, which came two hours earlier than those on Wednesday and affected twice as many people, were prompted by the loss of about 1,000 megawatts from Oregon's Bonneville Power Administration. One megawatt is enough to power 1,000 homes.
There had been signs it was going to be another bad day. The ISO declared a Stage 3 alert just one minute after midnight as power reserves dipped toward 1.5 percent. The ISO ordered the first blackouts in the state's months-long energy crisis on Wednesday. Hundreds of thousands of northern and central California residents saw everything from their lights to their heaters, computers, elevators and bank machines abruptly switched off as power reserves dropped below 1 percent. Power was shut off to as many as a half-million customers at a time, affecting homes and businesses in San Francisco, Silicon Valley, Sacramento, Modesto and others cities.
Gov. Gray Davis declared a state of emergency and ordered the state to temporarily start buying power from wholesalers and provide it to power-short and financially strapped utilities. The Legislature was expected to pass the bailout plan Thursday. An unstable market, deregulation, the Pacific Northwest's limited supplies of hydroelectric power and the utilities' financial problems are all contributing to the crisis.
The two largest utilities, Pacific Gas & Electric Co. and Southern California Edison, have both defaulted on millions in dollars in bills and lender payments. Adding to potential problems, PG&E officials say they may have to cut off natural gas supplies to customers that include electricity plants, the San Jose Mercury News reported Thursday.
The move could come within days because gas suppliers are threatening to stop dealing with the cash-starved utility out of fear of not being paid, PG&E President Gordon Smith said. Davis' emergency order allows the state Department of Water Resources to buy power, something he called a ``bridge to a long-term solution.'' He did not mention making utilities pay for the power, which could cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars over the next few days. Davis called on the Legislature to authorize a longer-term plan to buy power and provide it to utilities. Otherwise, power suppliers may call in their debts on PG&E and SoCal Edison, forcing them into bankruptcy.
On Wednesday, state regulators came within 1,300 megawatts - enough electricity to power 1.3 million homes - of ordering the first statewide blackouts since World War II. Automated teller machines along several blocks of downtown San Francisco shut down and at least two students were trapped in an elevator that stopped between floors at the city's Hastings School of Law. The students eventually used a ladder to climb out. Power was kept on at such essential facilities as hospitals and airports. In Washington on Thursday, Energy Secretary designate Spencer Abraham said President-elect Bush viewed California's power crisis as ``an urgent priority'' but it was too early to speculate on any federal government action.
Black Blade: Thumbs up to all who prepared for Y2K. Who looks stupid now? Can never be "too prepared." For proof – reread the first paragraph. The Ants are "snug as bugs in a rug", while the freezing Grasshoppers can reminisce about how they "…Danced, sang, and played all summer." Now about having gold as insurance….
Black Blade
(01/19/01; 02:59:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 45891)
Silver Demand High and Supply Low
I'm trying to track down some data on silver demand. A couple of sources earlier today informed me that silver demand has kicked into high gear, not so much from the photography sector, though there has been quite a bit of an upturn in the investment sector, there appears to be a huge pull on silver demand for "High conductivity" wire. Apparently, some of the fallout from the current energy crisis has put a huge demand on silver by power suppliers that are upgrading their infrastructure. As companies are looking to maximize efficiency, attention has turned to such materials as silver because of the benefits of integrating silver into wire production. None other than Stephen Leeb, editor of "Personal Finance", a financial newsletter has also mentioned this. He also mentioned that there is a "shortage" in silver - Hmmm...
As I have said, I will have to track down a couple more people as well as these "friends" that have emailed me. All that I can say now is that they are in the industry, so I have no reason to doubt them. If anyone has any info on this please post any info you have on it. Maybe that is much of the reason for the nice 7% move in silver recently – who knows?
- Black Blade
Black Blade
(01/19/01; 02:41:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 45890)
Pg&E Warns That Natural Gas Shortage on Horizon
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/kpix/20010118/lo/pg_e_warns_that_natural_gas_shortage_on_horizon_1.html
By KPIX - BCN
Pacific Gas and Electric Co. said today that it could run out of natural gas within the next month now that six wholesalers plan to stop selling it to them on Jan. 23. PG&E Chief Executive Officer Gordon R. Smith said, "As California continues to struggle with an energy crisis and the financial havoc it has created for the state's utilities, we face the very real possibility of natural gas shortages in the coming weeks." Smith said the six wholesalers that won't sell gas to PG&E account for 36 percent of its daily supply. Another group that accounts for an additional 30 percent is threatening to follow suit. He said the company is quickly depleting its current supply and will run out by early February if no action is taken. PG&E has only been able to purchase approximately 60 percent of the gas its customers will need for each day in February. The gas suppliers, PG&E says, have significantly changed the method of payment they will accept. PG&E said it is unable to pay in advance or on delivery for gas because it has exhausted its cash and credit due to high wholesale electricity prices. PG&E said it asked Gov. Gray Davis on Jan. 9 to use his emergency powers help the situation by providing short-term financial assistance so the gas suppliers will continue to sell them gas. It also asked President Clinton on Jan. 12 to declare a natural gas state of emergency.
The California Public Utilities Commission has instructed PG&E to divert gas from some of its noncore consumers, such as large industrial customers, in the event of a shortage. PG&E said this will only worsen the already bad electricity situation in California, because some of those industrial companies are power generators that require natural gas to produce electricity.
Black Blade: This has got to show up in the economy sooner or later. Meanwhile, some say that bankruptcy is inevitable at this point and that no outside NG supplier would be so stupid as to "give away" NG knowing that the troubled Utes simply cannot pay for it. Besides, PG&E and Edison have gone into technical default. – in other words – "Game Over."
Black Blade
(01/19/01; 02:33:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 45889)
Bush Vows to Fight 'Huge Energy Crisis'
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010118/pl/bush_energy_dc_1.html
By Randall Mikkelsen
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President-elect George W. Bush on Thursday vowed to fight a ``huge energy crisis'' by analyzing all federal lands for oil exploration, enlisting Mexico's help and rejecting calls to breach hydroelectric dams. In an interview with Reuters, Bush expanded on his previous calls to reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil by increasing domestic production, and said a natural gas pipeline would be needed to transport any gas tapped in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). ``I can't (over)emphasize how important it is for this nation to develop energy supplies. There needs to be conservation, no question about it, but we cannot conserve our way to low prices and energy independence,'' Bush said. Bush said he would respect state wishes not to allow drilling for oil off the coasts of California and Florida. But he said there were a lot of ``western lands'' that could support energy exploration without undue risk to the environment. ``I'm going to analyze every ... every piece of property that is federal land and come up with a cost-benefit analysis, basically. Because we need more supply,'' he said. He said there would be ``pristine'' and ``sensitive'' areas where energy development should be prohibited. But referring to the Arctic refuge, he said, ``No question about the fact that the ANWR will be a part of a longer-term strategy.'' Environmentalists hotly oppose oil and natural gas drilling in the vast federally protected wildlife area. Congressional action would be required to open the area to energy development. Developing the refuge would not have a quick impact, because of the need to build infrastructure, Bush said. ``Natural gas can't be trucked. It's got to be piped and therefore there has to be a pipeline, capacity to move that gas,'' he said.
Bush Dismisses Calls For Breaching Dams
Bush dismissed as outdated calls for breaching hydroelectric dams that have been criticized by environmentalists for disrupting salmon runs, especially in the Pacific Northwest. ``I don't notice anybody talking anymore about breaching the dams to save the salmon now that there's a huge energy crisis,'' he said. He added that the calls to breach dams arose ``when it appeared we had an abundance of cheap energy. Bush said power from hydroelectric dams was needed. ``When you start removing supplies of energy out of the mix, you're going to affect price.'' Bush said strengthening energy ties with Mexico, which is the world's fifth-largest oil producer and not a member of the OPEC cartel, would have the most immediate impact to ease a U.S. energy shortfall. ``The quickest way to have impact on the energy situation, is for us to work with Mexico, and a certain extent Canada, to build a policy for the hemisphere,'' he said. California, now in the throes of an electricity supply shortfall, faces long-term difficulties in a lack of electricity production capacity and a lack of pipelines to deliver energy supplies, he said. The United States would make clear to OPEC, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, that any moves to raise oil prices would put the economies of the United States and other free-market countries at risk, he said. This has also been a central element of Clinton administration OPEC diplomacy, but OPEC on Wednesday agreed to cut production by five percent to keep crude prices at $25 per barrel.
Black Blade: Easier said than done. The Enviro lobby in DC is well connected and bribes…er, contributes to many campaigns. BTW, I also saw the FOX interview with GW. It appears that he more or less said to Kalifornia – "You're on your own." Why not? Bubba punished the western states for not voting for him by confiscating the land for the Gubbermint. I see no problem with a bit of "Tit for Tat." What goes around – comes around. Besides, the Grasshoppers got themselves in this mess knowing full well that this day was coming. GW only suggested that Hydro-Carbon Man undergo a little withdrawal from his addiction. It was only a matter of time. "…. And the Grasshoppers danced, played, and sang all summer."
Black Blade
(01/19/01; 02:03:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 45888)
RE: Journeyman
Journeyman 45860
You Wrote:
>It seems to be the commonly offered advice to "get out of debt." However, if someone is anticipating hyperinflation, what is the logic? As per mhchuck (01/18/01; 13:39:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 45858), you can emulate 1922 German businesses and go into debt, knowing you'll be able to pay back that borrowed money with inflated money.
Anyone know where the idea of paying-off your debts under such economic conditions came from? Is it just banking disinformation, wrong-headed cultural blather - - - or is there some logic to it that escapes me?<
Black Blade: Maybe you got a point there. However, I will leave this life owing no one. In a Hyperinflationary environment, I would hope that my extremely "Precious" metals would carry me through. After all, that is the insurance policy of having PMs in my portfolio. The Germans (Ants?)who had gold during the 1920's did not suffer quite so much as their many of their countrymen (Grasshoppers). The result was devastating enough as Adolf Hitler and friends emerged to bring another horror to the world. Then of course, certain peoples of certain racial and ethnic background who had gold, silver, diamonds, etc. were able to flee the terror with a bit more ease, whereas their fellow countrymen of similar background fared rather poorly. To paraphrase a common cheese commercial in the US, "Ah, the power of Gold!"
SHIFTY
(01/19/01; 01:50:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 45887)
AngloGold, Barrick, Gold Fields, Placer Dome in merger mayhem
http://www.mips1.net/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B2422569D80065C537?OpenDocument
Gold Fields Ltd gained five per cent on the Johannesburg Securities Exchange on Thursday (18 January) amid speculation a merger proposal from AngloGold was imminent. All companies involved have declined to comment, although Gold Fields managing director Ian Cockerill confessed to being flattered by the attention.
And if the Johannesburg rumour mill is to be believed, the attention is considerable indeed! For example, it has been suggested AngloGold will first enlist the financial clout of North American company Barrick Gold; only then can the two parties make Gold Fields an offer it can't refuse.
A variation on the theme is that Barrick will first merge with AngloGold, then take out Gold Fields. Another view is that Gold Fields will seek a merger with Placer Dome as a defensive measure. But not so fast with your broker's number: wasn't Barrick eyeing Placer itself; and what about the prospect of Newmont taking out Placer now that it had fully absorbed Battle Mountain? Oh dear, somebody must know, mustn't they?
Dave Meger, an analyst for Alaron Trading in the US comments: "It gets out there and everyone's talking about it, and you don't know if you're making a bad rumour or a worse one," he says of Anglo's plot to gobble Gold Fields. This is the environment in which hasty investors get burned: buying on rumour and all that.
The fact of the matter is that the fundamentals of Gold Fields's business suggest the counter remains a decent buy, even at R27.30 a share. A recent broker's report states that on the whole Gold Fields' core operations have continued to improve in the three months to December. Management is well directed and, of course, there is a strong possibility of corporate activity. AngloGold and Anglo American own about 17% of the company and could marshall shares from friends and allies to buy more.
There's little doubt AngloGold is hot for Gold Fields, but the exact details and timing of any approach are unknown. What is known is that AngloGold's new chairman, Bobby Godsell, prefers friendly mergers. Hostile takeovers attract very large premiums and AngloGold would struggle to justify exacting its balance sheet more than is necessary.
It's also suggestive that Godsell has taken on the chairmanship of AngloGold, almost as if he were clearing a space for his old colleague, Ian Cockerill, to park his executive toys and undoubted operational acumen. But there I go again, speculating. I say announce the deal and then we'll have something to write about. Wise investors will also stay calm.
Incidentally, the JSE's All Gold Index improved its value by two per cent on a day in which the gold price picked its head up again; so Gold Fields's peer group also benefited. AngloGold was up R1.00 (R218.00 a share); Harmony increased R0.90 cents (R36.50) and Durban Roodepoort Deep gained 30 cents (R5.80) on a decent set of December quarter results.
By: David McKay
SHIFTY
(01/19/01; 00:53:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 45886)
DJ Asia Precious Metals: Gold Up; Short Covering, JPY, AUD
http://www.thebulliondesk.com/DJNews/4053643.htm
TOKYO (Dow Jones)--Asian spot gold was trading up late Friday on short covering encouraged by a stronger Japanese yen and Australian dollar, said traders.
The Australian dollar was trading around US$0.5615 late Friday, up from US$0.5560 late Thursday. The stronger yen, which was trading around Y119.05 to the U.S. dollar late Thursday, was up to Y117.35 late Friday.
(Prices in dollars/troy ounce, except Tocom in yen/gram.)
Friday Change On Thursday Friday Leading
0700 GMT New York Late HK Range Tocom
Gold 266.20 up 1.45 264.10 264.90-266.50 1001
Silver 4.81 up 0.01 4.70 4.78-4.83 18.07
Plat. 612.00 up 1.40 612.00 608.00-616.00 2,209
Pall.1,040.00 dn 15.00 1,020.00 1,020-1,060 3,550
Hong Kong spot gold opened at US$265.15 a troy ounce, up 40 cents from New York late Thursday.
Although trading volume was thin, gold may be making a sustainable recovery from its low of US$263.50 in Asia Thursday morning, market participants said.
"Unlike yesterday, selling interest has dried up and gold is looking pretty good," said a Sydney dealer.
Gains, however, should be limited before the Bank of England auction of 25 metric tons Tuesday, said traders. A Hong Kong dealer said the yellow metal will likely head up to US$267-US$268 before the auction.
In the medium term, however, the chance of a strong short covering rally remains, said the Sydney dealer. "The funds have some huge short positions between them."
The other precious metals were quiet and mainly up.
Spot silver made further gains overnight and is looking strong, said the Hong Kong dealer. "Recent gains (made by silver) made on short covering and the trade seem to be flowing onto gold. The picture looks nice and rosy today."
Of the PGMs, platinum was trading up from New York but equal to Asia late Thursday, and palladium was down from speculative New York highs.
Tokyo Commodity Exchange precious metals trade was mixed, with the stronger yen weighing heavily on prices, said a Tokyo dealer.
December gold closed down Y5 a gram from the previous Thursday close of Y1,006/gram, silver was up Y0.08/gram from Y17.99/gram, platinum was down Y39/gram from Y2,248/gram and palladium was up Y49/gram from Y3,501/gram.
-By Ian Kerr, Dow Jones Newswires; 813-5255-2935; Ian.Kerr@dowjones.com
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