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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/19/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

SHIFTY (11/19/2000; 23:58:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41793)
elevator guy
http://www.dovewinds.com/dubya/alshokeypokey.html
elevator guy: I thought the Palm Beach Pokey was a hoot too!
I needed a good laugh.
Thank's
$hifty

Black Blade (11/19/2000; 23:25:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41792)
Petroleum moving higher, PMs unmoved
Black Gold is bubbling up tonight. OPEC producers are not going to produce excess oil, even so they don't have that much excess capacity anyway. Other targets must be developed, but the era of cheap oil is over. Higher cost oil and nonconventional oil along with rising demand will begin to show up in consumer pricing soon enough. Although the bogus PPI and CPI numbers will be held in check with "hedonic" pricing measures, "seasonality" measures, and various other statistical filters.

Natural Gas 6.325 +0.225 +3.69 %
Heating Oil 1.095 +0.0162 +1.5 %
Crude Oil 35.37 +0.34 +0.97 %
Unleaded Gasoline 0.925 +0.0069 +0.75 %

Au and Ag are up slightly and PGMs are slumping slightly in lackluster trading overnight. Seems as if people are a bit quiet ahead of the Court action in Floriduh. No one wishes to take a firm position until a decision is made. In the meantime, PMs are still on sale at bargain basement prices.

Gold 267 +0.8 +0.3 %
Silver 467 +1.2 +0.26 %
Copper 82.45 0 0 %
Platinum 585 -0.5 -0.09 %

elevator guy (11/19/2000; 22:46:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41791)
Lets do some dancing to loosen up! Check out the link.
http://www.dovewinds.com/dubya/
This is not an endorsement, advertisement, or promotion.

Just a little levity.

George Dubya dancing!

beesting (11/19/2000; 22:25:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 41790)
POG in Euro's
http://quote.yahoo.com/m5?a=1&s=XAU&t=EUR

One ounce of Gold is $314.08 in Euro's, a little more than ten Euro's per gram,up slightly from a few weeks ago.....beesting.

elevator guy (11/19/2000; 22:03:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41789)
Some interesting links from a friend-
I have not personnaly checked all these out, but post them with confidence that they at least do not break the forum protocol.

Real money, with gold attached! www.norfed.com

Tyranny and gun control in Canada! www.lufa.ca

Canadian Action Party! http://www.canadianactionparty.ca/Main.asp?Language=English

IRS and the UN, and bankruptcy! http://www.egroups.com/message/RMNEWS_DAILY_EMAILS/8276

Well, thats about it.

Good reading to you.

beesting (11/19/2000; 22:00:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41788)
The Real Price of Gold...Chapter 6 by Paul Van Eeden...Of South Africa!
http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B24225699C00303590?OpenDocument

Very good article by Mr. Van Eeden explaining what Gold has done in other currencies:

<<In fact gold has held its value over thousands of years for the reasons discussed in Chapter 1. For most of the world nothing has changed. But in terms of US dollars there has been a major collapse in the gold price since February 1996.

Prior to February 1996, there is a strong correlation between the average price of gold and the price of gold in US dollars. This is to be expected because we know that between 1985 and 1995 the US dollar exchange rate was relatively stable and therefore, so was the price of gold in US dollars.

The rapid decline in the US dollar price of gold since 1996 is not because gold is being demonetized, or because central banks are selling gold, or hedge fund short positions, or producer hedging. The price of gold declined because the US dollar increased relative to other currencies, including gold. That correlation was conclusively demonstrated(by the above graph) and logic confirms it.>>

Click above URL for graph and full story....beesting.

SHIFTY (11/19/2000; 21:11:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41787)
Periodic Ponzi Update
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Nasdaq 3,027.19 + Dow 10,629.87 = 13,657.06 divide by 2 = 6,828.53 Ponzi

Up 12.56 from last week.

Link by RossL
Thank you Sir.

:)
$hifty

Journeyman (11/19/2000; 21:08:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41786)
E-mail??? @Galearis

Hi again Galearis!

You mentioned E-mail. To the best of my knowledge, I have no current address on file at USAGOLD, nor have I posted one.

I have received no E-mail concerning environmental issues for quite awhile. Perhaps you were refering to E-mail to someone else??

Regards, j.

YGM (11/19/2000; 20:52:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41785)
Gone For Awhile.....Last Post...
....Or Final Thought......On "THE Goree Mess"....
"We have to stand for something or we'll fall for anything"....Can't remember who said it but another one closer to my education level is "Man who sits on fence all day gets sore balls!"...Adios...YGM.

Journeyman (11/19/2000; 20:47:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41784)
Libertarian environmentalism @Galearis # 41775

Hi Galearis!

Regarding part three, have you seen Journeyman (11/15/00; 21:56:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41567)? My subjective evaluation is that that post (in the context of the adendum that follows) covers the libertarian position on about 90% of environmental problems.

If you've seen this post (and checked-out the LP platform, which Libertarians really mean, by the way) and you feel that this approach is at very least a great improvement on the gvt. handling of (and creating of and misdirection from) environmental issues, let me know some specific objections, and I'll respond -- if there is a libertarian answer.

Regards,
Journeyman

tedw (11/19/2000; 20:32:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41783)
General Schwarzkopf weighs in
http://www.usagold.com
General Norman Schwarzkopf in Tallahasse,Florida:

"IT IS A VERY SAD DAY WHEN THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE ARMED FORCES SERVING ABROAD AND FACING DANGER ON A DAILY BASIS ARE DENIED THE RIGHT TO VOTE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHO WILL BE THEIR COMMANDER IN CHIEF"

*************
Article at www.worldnetdaily.com

************
Gold up 1.30 in Asia

Galearis (11/19/2000; 20:24:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 41782)
@ Trail Guide
on being in the middle and they are us, we are them...
The high ground is a more useful place than that of the plain. To be in the middle is to be in balance.(smile)

Methinks you understand balance.

Thanks for the words.

G.

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 20:22:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41781)
One More Scenario Hoop Overlooked...
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20001119_1000.html
An Addendum to my earlier Election Scenario post. There's
still one more posible snafu hoop to jump through:
From the above link:
[snip]
_ The Florida legislature: Ultimately, the Republican-controlled Florida legislature decides whether Gore or Bush will receive the state"s 25 electoral votes. The legislature is not bound to assign the state"s electors to the popular vote winner, although it traditionally does so. So in theory, the GOP legislature could ignore a Gore popular victory earned by hand recounts included in the final tally and give the decisive electoral votes to Bush. _
[unsnip]

=== But even this does not change the eventual settlement
which I felt would happen, whereby the US Congress will
decline both Gore and Bush, and instead compromise by
drafting Senator Nunn and General Powell wholeheratedly.

Read the earlier post, if this doesn't make sense to you here:
ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 4:37:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41742)

dragonfly (11/19/2000; 20:13:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 41780)
Trail Guide
Welcome Back !!!

Thank you for an interesting thought. Have you studied the "Monadology" of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz??

It is indeed a great philosophical question whether "This is the best of all possible worlds."

Voltaire didn't quite like that notion and was quite 'Candide' about it <smile> but C'est la vie.

To paraphrase Pogo - "We have found the politician, and he is us."

Nice to have you back.

Regards,
dragonfly

Cavan Man (11/19/2000; 20:04:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 41779)
wolavka: November Gales
It is cold here tonight in Missouri. No fuel cells in sight and need natural gas to power the forced air. The road ahead looks bumpy in the energy market. Mr. Richardson was in The Kingdom again for another (no pun) repeat performance.

SteveH (11/19/2000; 20:00:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41778)
response from a friend
Jeff asked me to post this response to DaveC's message. I am not taking a position on this. Just the messenger.

Steve,
Please pass this on to Dave C.

Though I agree with the majority of what you said here, I believe
you are mistaken regarding the abortion issue. What is central to
this issue is whether a person has ownership of their own body,
and when that ownership begins. Neither the staunch "pro choice"
or the staunch "pro life" groups are willing to admit this because it
undermines both their positions.

By definition; if a woman "owns" (has exclusive property rights to)
her own body, then she has an absolute right to do anything she
wants to it. She also cannot be legally forced to provide anything
directly from her body that she does not want to. Anyone who is
not a socialist would agree that an individual "owns" their own
body and life.

By the same token; a baby, as soon as they are considered "alive",
has an innate right to continue to live. And being that they are unable
to provide for or decide for themselves, and they were placed in
that position by a voluntary act of their parents (by virtue of
conception and birth), their parents have a contractual obligation to
provide for them to the best of their ability until such time as they
are able to provide for themselves. In this country, that obligation is
limited by law (and common practice) to the period until the child
attains the age of 18 (age of majority).

What the abortion issue boils down to is at what time is the infant
considered "alive". Birth? After the second trimester? When the
fertilized egg attaches to the uterine wall? Conception? After the
egg is released from the ovary? It is easy to discard the last two as
possibilities because an unfertilized egg cannot develop into a
human being and a fertilized egg that does not attach to the uterine
wall cannot develop either. On the other hand, there is no way to
argue that a child is not a living human after birth. So that puts the
moment of transition from a extension of the mothers body into
a human being somewhere between when the fertilized egg
attaches and when the child is born.

Now either of those two extremes are unreasonable. On the early
end, you have the problem of miscarriages. If a fertilized egg is
considered human as soon as it attaches to the uterine wall, then
every miscarriage must be investigated as a possible murder. In
addition, every miscarriage would have to be ruled either murder,
manslaughter, or accidental. And the surviving family of the fetus
would have the same legal recourses available to them as the
relatives of a deceased child. Could you see a mother who
miscarried in the first month of pregnancy suing her employer
because she lifted a box that was too heavy during the course of
her job (which can cause a miscarriage)? On the late end, if a child
is human at the moment of birth (when their face enters the
atmosphere) how can you honestly claim they are not a human
being 10 seconds earlier? So it has to be somewhere in between.

My personal opinion is that when the fetus is able to survive
outside the mothers body, it is a baby rather than a fetus. Prior
to that point, it cannot be considered a human being. After that
point, it has all the rights of a human being. And an abortion
after that point should be treated as a homicide. An abortion
done (after that point) to save the mothers life should be treated
as a homicide as well. Even better, the doctor should be forced
to perform an early c-section and attempt to save both the mother
and child.

Note that this is not a perfect situation. As technology advances,
and babies can be kept alive outside the womb, and assured of
relatively normal development, earlier and earlier in the course of
pregnancy, the point when a fetus was considered a baby would
have to be adjusted accordingly. But I personally feel that it is the
best that we, as a human society with human failings, can do.
Beyond that, only God can truly judge.

Jeff

Trail Guide (11/19/2000; 19:31:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 41777)
One quick post
Hello all,
I'm still working through a few private things. But, rest assured that I'll be back before this election is over.
I think (smile)?
You know, both Bush and Gore are good guys. I bet they are at least equal to the best members of your family "in laws" (huge grin)!

Below, I'm perhaps saying the same things in several different ways. Give it some thought?
--------------------

All of us are them,,,,, those two guys!

Looking out across this national stadium, filled with millions of people, I ask myself; "does everyone here, expressing their views publicly, understand that "they & we" are this society as a whole"?
Mostly, I think that deep down we do and our brash accusations are a form of posturing for our own self interest.

But, when some negative people speak or write the same challenges over and over we can't help not to place their private sincere position as being the same as their divisive public stance.
If that's true, then fortunately for the rest of us, large societies do act as a mass and the finality of their
political choice always drowns out these vocal few "trying their hearts out" to speak for "US ALL".

The citizens of this great land are far smarter than the media or many private speakers make us all out to be. I know, because I hear and talk to our "regular people" all the time, just like they were family. Ha! Ha! Many of them are (smile).

We "regular people" know a thing or two about real life and how it works---------
Truly, in western democracies, no one controls group think, even as many would have us fear that some power players can. We, like the great herds of buffalo of yesterday - year, move in a way that makes observers think a shepherd directs us. But just watch them media boys dive for cover when we go that way instead of their way!

So here I am,,,,, here we are,,,,, right in the middle of this, the largest mass of opinion in our human group. Feels good and safe here, doesn't it?. I'm happy here and think most all of you readers feel the same.
We all move together, sink together, swim and sometimes succeed together as a nation,,,,, for better or worse. Thank goodness we have so many around us that our strength is so
strong. In this light I always say; "god bless America but heaven help the world"! (smile)

This evil society?-------------
Why, it's us, we know it! So please, sir don't keep repeating Gore's and Bush's bad traits so loudly? You're talking about "us". you know.

Does anyone writing here think we as a political people are not an awful bunch of self centered manipulators? Ha! Ha! I didn't think so,,,,,, so what's the problem?
We take our own little self interest as far as possible until the larger mass puts a stop to it. Good! Because then we all become governed by the larger mass's self interest ,,,,,, and that becomes the strongest trail we can follow ,,,,, as a group ,,,, for better or worse. At least they create "our" lawful order, as bad as that may be. And in that structure we live "kind of" peaceably, even if it's not the same moral choice for all of us.
Still,,,,, bless this nation from sea to shining sea!

In most modern western societies political power has no strength without wealth and that's good. So it takes us off our usual course of chasing money for a while. That's ok because their control of public wealth is not conceded to them without a good fight and a good fight comes second behind this winning the majority of human support first. So, during these brief power transfers, the nature of, control of and longevity of any particular nations wealth assets is subjugated to lower status while winning the greatest number of votes comes in on top. Not winning the support of the most moral, mind you, just getting the votes any way one can. It's a terrible way of doing things, but that's ok,,,,,,,, it's us! We accept that privately when no one is looking, right? I thought so. You newcomers to this, that think it's all so unlawful, remember, we been doing it for over 200 years.

Taking this high ground for a firm footing----------

I now point out and ask; "no leader can ever do everything promised, nor can they accomplish our agenda while being everything moral for the greatest mass of this self centered nation,,,, So why do we place them upon a platform that not one of us can stand on ourselves"?
Yea, I know,,,, you already knew it's the best we can do and the best they can do. I thought you grasp that.

But, reverse the tables in our current presidential election and ask yourself; "would Mr. Bush not do the exact same thing Mr. Gore is doing? Don't answer that out loud or someone will hear it in the other room (smile). If he (Bush) didn't, then he would not be fighting his best to represent the best thrust of our national will. Right? So why can't Gore scratch and claw for all he is worth?

You see, we expect, demand and need a leader that is most like us. So don't be presenting Gore or Bush as something they cannot be to the mass that eventually places them in power. If you do, then your opinion does not represent the greatest strength of our nation. That being;

"the power of a people to govern themselves by finding a leader strong enough to win this no holds bared fight, for the support of most of us good people".

Ruthless? You bet! But knew that already, didn't you?

Crooked? Yes! But knew that already, didn't you?
Moral? Probably not! But knew that already, didn't you?

Honest? Only to the extent that our desires will allow him to be!

So, myself and the greatest majority of Americans I stand in the middle and say;-------
"let the best person win the hardest fight over the longest mile. We demand it because we are one tough bunch to govern. So be it and good for us"!!

Further:
As a national family we choose to shake the walls of our house as we please and damn the outsiders looking in! General Patton said it best: " Americans love a winner and won't tolerate a loser"! Indeed, when this is all over we'll all be winners, like it or not.

Closing---------
I say to my fellow Americans,,, my good friends and bad;

"put up your dukes and let's go for it,,,, after all I'm the best neighbor you ever had or ever fought with ,,,,,, Oh, by the way ,,, how are the kids,,,, God bless you and yours ,,,,, and do you need anything from the store,,,, I'm going that way?

---from one of "us" that's just like "them"---

thank you all for reading and happy thanksgiving
Trail Guide

Also;
Thanks for the thoughts Michael! (big smile)

Shermag (11/19/2000; 19:13:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41776)
A Welcome to the End of a Mania
I welcome the end of this market mania that we have been caught up in for the last several years. I say this knowing full well that a period of great difficulty lies ahead. However this plays out, it will cause the financial ruin of a great many, with unknowable social unrest and upheaval.

I welcome the period of trouble ahead because it will be the end of the period of excess I believe to be now behind us. I am tired of seeing the purveyors of bad business plans rewarded with instant billionaire-hood. I shake my head in dismay over the adulation of all of the dotcom Bozos that happened along (Time Magazine's recent selection for Man of the Year will mark the absurdity of the era). Lets hear it for the end of the era in which elevating the price of a stock is all that mattered; the end of the inane cheerleading by the allegedly neutral business journalists; the end of Wall Street hype and disinformation that parades as analysis; the terminal end of the process that hollowed out corporate America into the personal accounts of its employees through the ESOPs and the attendant destruction of the balance sheets in support of this.

I will not miss the gloating of workmates over their great prowess in stock selection. I tire of their taunting at my conservative stance, their smirks and derision when I mention my position in Gold.

I wish for an end of the perception of friends and family that I am a perpetual pessimist.

I want to have my understanding of the fundamental workings of an economy confirmed. I believe in the paramount value of saving, of the importance of investing in productive ventures as opposed to the glorification of debt supported consumption.

I want to be rewarded for the saving and sacrifice I have lived for many years, while witnessing the conspicuous consumption of acquaintances.

Lastly, I wish for an end to the distortions and mal-investments being made that will force a painful adjustment, one that grew more malevolent as the mania progressed.

Shermag

Galearis (11/19/2000; 18:37:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41775)
@ Journeyman or anyone....
Libertarianism on the environmental side....
Sir Journeyman, I have been waiting for part three of the discussion on Libertarianism, and unless I have missed it somehow my questions still wait hanging. I also hope that my discussion response sent by email (for band-width considerations[smile]) was of some interest and challenge.

So I would like to put it to the group too. Does the Libertarian world see on the political landscape a position concerning the ecological/environmental area? For those who have read Bruber are Libertarians a "thee" or a "thou" in their relationship to the "real" world?

andrew the kiwi (11/19/2000; 18:36:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41774)
junior platinum company on the rise
http://www.tradingroom.com.au/
asx code=HLX(Helix Resources)
just MVHO, the above company has moved up 2 fold since a post I made approx two months ago. Do your own research, if many of the aussie miners do have forward sale problems, there could be a huge run to the junior explorers, as per Midas. Another to watch is platinum australia, now at 0.65A after listing at 0.20A less than eight weeks ago.
Not advice just information...............................

ji (11/19/2000; 18:28:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 41773)
mind control
The essence of psychological warfare is to fill the mind with conflicting concepts and change the meaning of words.

Look around, listen.

Psychological warefare is being waged against the people of the world.

ET (11/19/2000; 16:13:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41772)
John Doe - learning to juggle

Hey JD - you da man! You wrote;

"2) This spectacle is designed and propagated for an intended effect(s)."

Yeah - never has so much bs been laid on so many. This whole thing getting down to just a few votes is simply "unbelievable".

"I believe #2 is in effect. This is psychological warfare of the ilk that is pressed upon America every few years or so
to keep us agitated, fearful, and divided, e.g., Kennedy & King assassinations, Vietnam, Watergate, OJ, Monica, etc.
In addition to the ongoing mind games, this event also appears to being used to further weaken what's left of the
legitimate U.S. federal government, trash our "hopelssly anitquated" Constitution, and perhaps provide cover for
pulling the economy into recession, among probable others."

Yup - this is the circus part of "bread and circus". Considering how intent they are on keeping this going is probably some indication of the severity of the coming economic meltdown. I suspect somebody is being set up to take the fall whether they know it or not. Certainly government and Wall Street will be found blameless.

"Don't play their game. Don't fall into the Team A, Team B, us-versus-them garbage. Don't be fodder for their evil,
manipulative battles. This is exactly what is desired. They can only win if we play their game. Don't feed upon or
convey yet another huge, manufactured wave of negativity and distrust. First they want your hatred and fear, then
they want to poison your mind, kill your body, and destroy your soul. Recognize that America is the main battlefield
for a destructive, sinister, globalist agenda and leave it at that. Take these events and neutralize their negative effects
and, where possible, turn them into positives. Turn off the TV, change the subject, expose the war, read to a child,
write a book, or learn to juggle."

Excellent advice! Myself, I purchased Dave Pelz's "Short Game Bible" and "Putting Bible", and am happily removing strokes from my handicap. Maybe be down to a 3 or 4 by spring. See you on the funway!

OverHerd (11/19/2000; 15:14:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 41771)
Run Off Election
Hi All
In some parts of the world they have a run off election. Where the party with the most guns elects to run off their opposition. We are no where near that here, yet, but watch out you could be the one that is being run off.
Joe

tedw (11/19/2000; 13:52:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41770)
Gold,voter fraud, election crisis and the disintegration of America
http://www.usagold.com

News reports from England indicate that the US is becoming the laughing stock of the world. How must foreign investors view the US at the present time when seemingly we cannot even conduct an honest election? The way things are shaking out it looks like a large segment of the population is going to view the next President as illegitimate.Whether this will translate into drastic actions is anybodys guess. Does the word CIVIL WAR send a shudder down anybody's spine?

I accuse the democratic party of being on a crash course to destroy our country, fueled by their own selfish ambitions.
In light of what is going on how do Treasury Bonds look as a safe secure investment?

Coupled with high energy costs, inflation, and the threat of Nuclear war in the Mideast and between the US and China over Taiwan, Gold may rise to unimaginable levels.

However, the conditions which precipatate it may make you
wish for the tines when gold was $250-$265 an ounce.

Dont mean to be negative but thats how I see it.

And in the last analysis, that is what Gold is. A haven for you to preserve everything you have worked for all your life.

auspec (11/19/2000; 13:43:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41769)
USA GOLD Message # 41766
I hereby nominate this distinguished post for the Forum HOF!!!
Just kidding MK.
This place will never lose it's luster and will always grade Brilliantly Circulated/Proof/only one of it's kind. We may stray a bit into politics so as to have a some fun and lighten up a bit only {right}, but will soon return to our roots as could not do otherwise. Possible contrary indicator-- What is gloomier, the gold market or this election chaos?
Answer--The one that doesn't give you a lifetime opportunity for accumulation!

auspec (11/19/2000; 13:21:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 41768)
elevator guy/ ShaftMaster
Thanks to you e. g.- You are so right about our conditioning to avoid all but the front runners. That is part of what hacks me off about Perot as he had a legitimate {supposedly} opportunity and flaked out. If 5% or more of us will vote our conscience for a particular guy it then changes the landscape for the following election. Shows you how far behind the 8 ball we really are, grovelling for 5%.Let's get after them next time!
Something tells me that it is permissable to change your "screen name" if you so desire. You could check with Town Crier/ Randy @ The Tower or whoever he is this week, possibly. Couple of suggestions for your entertainment: ShaftMaster, God of the Vertical, or The Golden Shaft. I am seriously considering changing my name to ThighGold! Suggestions??
The auspector

elevator guy (11/19/2000; 12:37:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41767)
@auspec
Thank you for you reply.

I liked your comment about not holding your breath, but merely your nose. Very funny, (smile)

Yes, I would have to agree, that Harry Brown and Alan Keyes are REAL people, who really love their country, and by all apearances they do not seem to have come out of a "mold".

But when I think of them, the first thought that crosses my mind is.."they could never win", so then I off-handedly dismiss them as also-rans.

Maybe I have been conditioned this way-

There is a story, of a tank of fish, with a partition in the middle, and on the one side there are pirahnas or some flesh-eating type of fish. On the other side of the partion, there are goldfish. The pirahnas swim in circles, eyeing the goldfish all the while, but never able to eat those yummy goldfish because ofthe partition. After the fish have been going around in the same circular rut for weeks, the partition is removed. The carnivorous fish continue to swim in circles, and dont attack the goldfish, spellbound by what they think is reality.

Could it be that those who have opportunity in their hands, (we voters), are so conditioned to accept defeat of our true wishes (real victoy of an honest candidate), that we simply give up, and resign ourselves to voting for the candidate form the b.s. party, just because we think its the only way?

When in actuallity, the government is still in our hands, we are the ones with the power, but we are stymied by a lack of knowledge, and guts to once again regain our right to self govenment, and self determination.

So let us not be swimming in circles, like hypnotized fish, but be up and doing, and vote our conscience, wherever that may lead us. It certainly couldn't be worse than the fiat tyanny and taxation that are under now.

USAGOLD (11/19/2000; 12:33:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41766)
On the Hall of Fame. . . .
There has been a great deal of discussion about the Hall of late and I am happy to see that we do not take entries to it lightly. Entry to the Hall should be an honor not easily bestowed on one's fellow knight or lady. It should be difficult to get into the Hall with DaveC's effort a good example of the level of expression to warrant consideration.

If we do not hold to strong standards both in terms of what's nominated and in terms of what's seconded and why, the Hall will become cluttered to the point that no one will want to make the commitment to get through it. In the absence of tough standards, it simply becomes a just another place where posts go never to be read again. The Hall of Fame will continue to be greatly strengthened and vindicated by sticking to the strict selection process set out in the original mission statement when the Hall was established several months ago. This also goes for the Lighter Side entries of which the Goldfly songs provide a good measuring standard. If the standards are met and the Hall overflows with entries, then so be it, but let's make sure that what goes in there, like Excaliber, is well-fired steel having met the high standards of this Table.

How do we achieve this standard?

Somewhere in the discussion on the Hall of Fame (I can't seem to find it now) I made the point that Hall entries must be nominated and seconded with a strong or clever supporting post. It will not work to simply jump up and say "I second that." The whole idea of strong Hall of Fame calibre post is to stimulate good discussion, so that it doesn't just float off into the ether the point of it lost somewhere along the way without serving any purpose.

I can remember in my old university student government days, we would have these various discussions of the issues (and back in the late 1960s early 1970s there was never a lack of issues), and then someone would make a motion (usually out of frustration that the conversation had gone way beyond anything productive). On the council we had an officious representative who rarely failed to second those motions. When you looked at the minutes of the meetings this individual rarely contributed to the debate, but her name showed up profusely in the minutes book just on the basis of many seconds, call to votes, points of order etc. By the end of the term, her seconds always put a smile on the other participants� faces -- though not always one of total approval. I never did quite understand her motives, but I knew I could count on her whenever I made a motion of my own. My suspicions of blatant politicking were allayed when it came to the end of the school year and she hadn't made a single proposal for consideration of the council -- like the Florida squirrel that stored nuts for a winter that never arrived.

The purpose of this aside is not to equate our seconders here with that individual, simply because those who second here contribute in so many ways and over such a long period that it would be silly for me to even throw a hint in that direction. It is to demonstrate that a second must hold substance in order for the rest of the table to understand the strength (level) of conviction behind it.

If one believes a post to be extraordinary, it merits drawing from one's own experience and understanding in support of it to the benefit of all seated at this Table. This does not mean that you have to write a major disseration supporting a nomination or second -- a simple one paragraph statement of its relevance to your way of thinking will do. (And perhaps that will energize a synapse elsewhere around the table.) If you wish to go beyond that, that's what this Forum is all about.

The resulting process will help us meet the three fundamental purposes of the Hall:

1. To cull out important and fundamental understandings for others who wander this way in the future,

2. To reward those who gained an important insight by enshrining that post in our place of honor,

3. To stimulate the conversation to an even higher level

-------------

FROM THE HALL OF FAME FRONT MATTER:

". . . . Let us not take lightly that which we place in this Hall. Any knight or lady is free to nominate a post or series of posts for the Hall with a review of its merits. It must be seconded by at least three others who also cite its importance for inclusion in the Hall. The more members who speak in its behalf, the better its chances of entry. A final determination will be made by me under consultation with my team of trusted advisors as to whether or not a piece should be entered into the Hall. The original nominator is asked to monitor the arrival of any supporting seconds, and to alert the TownCrier (via the forum or sitemaster@usagold.com) of the nominated commentary ID when it qualifies for final consideration.

Fellow knights and ladies.......I want to thank all of you for making this such a fine place to gather. We keep this Table Round as our personal intellectual holding to advance our own knowledge and wisdom as well as the knowledge and wisdom of others. Each a member. Each a contributor. Each an important voice. Let this Forum Hall of Fame be our shrine.

As with all our endeavors, we will start this as an experiment and make sure that it does not present problems or create unnecessary tensions around the Table, evaluating it as a permanent institution. Don't forget that this Forum also started as an experiment -- an experiment that has gone very well. The credit belongs to you, the participant.

------------------------------------

FROM MY HALL OF FAME POST:

�This Forum was originally created as a place where people of a like mind with respect to gold could have a place to gather and discuss their views, their opinions, their lives. I consider that and that alone to be of extraordinary importance and I am proud to
be able to provide it. USAGOLD is a dream realized. Up until places like this existed, people who felt as we do about the nature of money, economics and politics were completely shut out from the public discussion. The fact that FOA and Another were
around to help launch the site was a happy circumstance for me and the rest of us who first gathered here. At the same time, they were the catalyst. It was their acceptance of my invitation to post here that made it all possible. It was even a happier circumstance for me to see the intense level of thinking, interest and ideas that evolved here as a result of their presence right up until some of the strong posts from this afternoon. (I wish I could name names but I am sure I would leave out a shining star. I don't want to do that.) Do I agree with everything FOA and Another espouse? No, I do not. Anyone who has read the posting carefully can see that. But I do revel in the level of discussion among highly intelligent people that come here simply because these two teachers have decided to camp here for awhile. I have this strange notion that the pen is indeed mightier than the sword
and this Forum is my testament to it. So in this way I am in all of your debt. You have made this more than I ever thought possible. This place was created for the gold investor and that's the way it will stay. Thank you, my friends and fellow goldmeisters. Let us hope that we ALL continue to walk this road together. And may this Mighty Oaken Table, like the subject discussed over it, never lose its luster."

Let the Discussion continue. . . . . . . .

elevator guy (11/19/2000; 12:21:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41765)
@Thaigold
Thank you for your kind comments.

As to your question of who to support for office, all I can offer is the hollow refrain from the 60s song by Ten Years After, with Alvin Lee on guitar, lacing in the most intense lead licks.

I'd love to change the world,
But I dont know what to do,
So I'll leave it up to you.

But seriously, I think you have some good ideas, as does auspec, whom I will thank for his reply next.

Best regards, elevator guy. (Sure wish I choose some grand or intriging screen name, oh well)

Journeyman (11/19/2000; 11:17:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41764)
Hmm @John Doe msg#: 41734

I'd considered a parallel post a few days back, especially when they immediately began talking about the effect of the stalemate on the value of the dollar. It seems to me this topic came up much too easily and from too many different directions to be purely chance. If we know the "strong dollar policy" is untenable, "they" must know also. (By the way, I don't believe in a big, well-coordinated "conspiracy," more like "convergent evolution" where factors in the environment cause development of similar characteristics in diverse organisms. Like eyes, for example.) So perhaps "they" are indeed using this as cover (or cause) to crash the dollar and, indirectly the US economy.

On the other hand, Noam Chomsky (socialist, but a good two-hour discussion with a well-spoken and thoroughly grounded libertarian could convert him I think), in his book "Manufacturing Consent," suggests there are two dominant powers expressed in the media. He further suggests that when they agree, we get one sided propaganda, and only when they disagree do we get two sides to an issue. We almost NEVER get the third, fourth, fifth, etc. side of course.

Good advice not to be caught up in the pseudo bi-valued uproar, however. Both Gush and Bore are clearly "globalists," which would in a certain context be good. As usual, however, free-trade has been perverted into fascism by TPTB and as expressed in the actual operations of the World Trade Organization (WTO), NAFTA, etc.

Regards,
Journeyman

John Doe (11/19/2000; 10:43:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41763)
splitting votes

Ross Perot was introduced to purposely split Republican votes, insuring a Clinton win (both times). Note how Perot inadvertently achieved enough momentum in '92 that he actually would have won. The tip off was when he was purposely withdrawn to prevent actually achieving office. Then, unbelievably, when Bush started gaining on Clinton without Perot in the picture, Perot, his "winning momentum" broken, was again injected into the system as a "candidate", insuring Clinton would be asked to swear on The Bible to uphold and defend the Constitution.

This same tactic was used to split the Republican vote during the Wilson election (the one that guaranteed passage of the Federal Reserve Act for the benefit of the Eastern banking cartel). Teddy Roosevelt was used to pull votes from Taft to ensure Wilson would win.

auspec (11/19/2000; 10:10:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41762)
Ross Perot/ Elevator Guy #41735/ThaiGold #41736
I enjoyed and am largely in agreement with your premises regarding what choice in candidates we really have. Sorry, but I must take exception to your glorifications of Ross Perot as I am not convinced that he was "really different". He was certainly unique, but in the end proved to be nothing more than a distraction that let a lot of people down with his lack of convictions and follow through. He looks like nothing more than another pawn from my vantage point. Fortunately he only fooled us twice and has stayed away from the recent charade. So we have a new election strategy--drain off votes from the opposite camp by offering up a Perot or Nader, looks like a winning strategy lately.
IMHO there are some real statesmen lurking on our national political scene, and will offer to you both Harry Browne and Alan Keyes. These are men of honesty and conviction that would likely right our listing ship, given the opportunity. Their, and any other reasonable alternative candidate's, initial hope is to get enough exposure via debates or sufficient funding {ala R. P.} to start making a difference. In the meantime will not hold my breath, merely my nose.
As posted previously THEY did such a magnificent job of choosing polar opposite candidates this year that many of us could not vote our conscience for our PREFERRED candidate but were compelled to vote AGAINST our anti-candidate.
ThaiGold, your end game scenario is an intrigue! Thank you for thinking way ahead. Personally, what ever happens, I am going to celebrate the exit of the man from Hopeless. With high auspectations

DaveC (11/19/2000; 9:45:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41761)
http://www.egroups.com/message/unorganizedmilitia/5065
Just found this one. Needs more investigation but

THERE IS HOPE!

Now I have to get ready to go eat some big Italian dinner again. Sometimes I walk out of these things literally sick to my stomach. Too much food! (Troppo cibo!)

And sorry about all the off-topic stuff but as we are all aware of what is happening in the gold/silver/currency/oil markets, we just need to spread our wings for a while. It's all related somehow, no? Ciao.

TEXAS LEGISLATORS FILE LAWSUIT TO PROTECT SECOND AMENDMENT

*********************
PRESS RELEASE
*********************
TEXAS LEGISLATORS SUE CITIES AND COUNTIES ACROSS COUNTRY
IN DEFENSE OF RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS

Atlanta, Chicago, Boston among defendants that are attempting to
bankrupt gun industry with frivolous lawsuits. Miami-Dade County, L.A. County, and the District of Columbia are also defendants.

POC: Trey Blocker (512) 481-0168
815 Brazos St., Ste. #700
Austin, Texas 78701
November 15, 2000
http://www.libertydefense.com
treyblocker@l...

AUSTIN - Since late 1998, 19 cities, 5 counties have filed lawsuits against the gun manufacturers in an attempt to achieve de facto gun control through the courts and ultimately bankrupt the gun industry.

That is why, on November 15th 2000, over two-dozen Texas
legislators and several gun stores will bring suit against those cities and counties for conspiring to violate the Second Amendment and the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

"We are filing this lawsuit to stop these cities from damaging our right to keep and bear arms and the right of gun stores to conduct their businesses free from harassing lawsuits," said Representative Suzanna Hupp.

Hupp, known as a passionate defender of the 2nd amendment ever since her tragic involvement in the 1991 Luby's massacre in Killeen, is joined by former Texas State Senator and Civil Liberties Defense Foundation President Jerry Paterson in calling for an end to legislating from the bench.

"We want to put a stop, once and for all, to the attempts by litigious attorneys to hold lawful industries liable for the criminal misuse of their products," Patterson said. "If we do not stop them now, the alcohol, automotive, and countless other, industries will be attacked next, sending prices skyward and affecting the availability and affordability of products for the average consumer."

The lawsuit, copies of which can be obtained on the Civil Liberties Defense Foundation website at www.libertydefense.com, alleges that the defendants have conspired to infringe upon the 2nd Amendment rights of Texans and the rights of gun stores as protected under the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The plaintiffs are seeking monetary damages and other relief proper under the law.

"The Second Amendment is a sacred part of the U.S. Constitution, and we will not stand by as cities in other parts of the country try to damage the rights of Texans," said State Representative Carl Isett of Lubbock.

DEFENDANTS:
Atlanta, Georgia
Boston, Massachusetts
Bridgeport, Connecticut
Chicago, Illinois
Camden, New Jersey
Cincinnati, Ohio
Miami, Florida
Newark, New Jersey
Gary, Indiana
New Orleans, Louisiana
St. Louis, Missouri
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
San Francisco, California
Wilmington, Delaware
Compton, California
West Hollywood, California
Sacramento, California
San Mateo, California
Berkeley, California
Los Angeles County, California
Miami-Dade County, Florida
Camden County, New Jersey
Wayne County, Michigan
Alameda County, California
District of Columbia

PLAINTIFFS:
Rep. Ray Allen
Rep. Leo Berman
Rep. Dennis Bonnen
Rep. Wayne Christian
Rep. Robby Cook
Rep. Frank Corte
Rep. Mary Denny
Rep. Rick Green
Rep. Kent Grusendorf
Rep. Judy Hawley
Rep. Talmage Heflin
Rep. Harvey Hildebran
Rep. Charlie Howard
Rep. Suzanna Hupp
Rep. Terry Keel
Rep. Jim Keffer
Rep. Carl Isett
Rep. Mike Krusee
Rep. Gene Seaman
Rep. Robert Talton
Rep. Ron Wilson
Rep. Arlene Wolhgemuth

CLDF is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation former in 1999 by several former and current Texas legislators for the purpose of providing educational information relating to the preservation of the freedom guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, and to provide legal services necessary for the protection of those rights.

wolavka (11/19/2000; 9:40:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 41760)
Thai gold
separation in natural gas, talk is floating around on fuel cells coming big time.

a g cargolifter was mentioned as long term play, still working on checking it out.

fwiw (B S ) Bethlehem steel appears as if somebody will buy her out. steel industry gonna get hit hard. seeing major layoffs in Northern Indiana, Millrat complained to me about losing his job with a 2,000 a month house payment. It's starting to snow________________________ball.

Peter Asher (11/19/2000; 9:37:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 41759)
To add a thought,

before heading out into the rural environment to frame a room addition in exchange for FRNs.

Those with Greed, Avarice and Evil in their hearts, will vote for a political environment that tolerates Greed, Avarice and Evil.

Peter Asher (11/19/2000; 9:30:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 41758)
"My Lord, What a Morning"

That old Belafonte song is playing in my mind.

First, great post by John Doe; then E.G. carries the torch and has me laughing to boot, with "Dinner and a movie first." Then Dave C does us all proud with a glorious synopses of the absolute Truth of it.

I second Thaigold's nomination!

RANDY! I know you are a bit negative about Social/political posts in the HOF, but this Forum has become what it has become and we ARE your content. When this current Dog and Pony Show comes to some sort of directional conclusion, we will apply THAT disaster to the Gold prognostication.

DaveC (11/19/2000; 9:25:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41757)
Mr Gresham (11/19/2000; 8:43:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41756)
Yes, born and raised in the suburbs of Detroit. Spent 4.5 years in Manhattan. Mostly midtown on the east side. Good experience but the energy level is too much.

I like the part about being surrounded by works of God. Maybe that is what helps people in the urban areas to appreciate things more, take life a little slower, and treat their fellow man (and woman) better.

I now live in this little town in northwest Italy. We look out on the Med everyday and appreciate what we have found. Life is a lot slower. I like it this way.

Thank you for your kind words. Sometimes, like earlier today, I wished I did not care so much. The people I talk to inthe states are either segregated by the Dem/Republican or Liberal/Conservative or some other divide and conquer strategy. No one seems to be able to think clearly and look at the big picture. No one thinks about basic fundamentals anymore. Everything is "grey." Everything is subjective. This is the secret behind fascism:
"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal."
_Benito Mussolini

In fact, with the lack of responses from most people, I think most people are just ignoring the whole thing, or at least the details. Everyone seems to lump this together with "they all do it" or "they are all crooks."

Good for a democracy, bad for a republic.

Mr Gresham (11/19/2000; 8:43:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41756)
John Doe, DaveC
John Doe -- As before, you have hit it right on the head.

DaveC -- Former New York resident, as I recall? I agree with your differentiation of urban and rural life. It's almost a cliche, and individuals can be exceptions both ways, but it's an important difference for me.

In the country, you are surrounded by the works of God, or nature, things that man could never duplicate. In the city, man starts to think he is God, because everything around (somehow he overlooks the predominating ugliness) is his own creation. He has destroyed nearly everything of nature. (Squirrels and pigeons, big thrill, eh?)

I read conservatives for the moral backbone they provide. They are people who are still thinking along those lines. Liberals or radicals I know have been so busy trying to figure out the web of the corporate power elite's control that their personal lives have been left out of the equation.

Both sides have blind spots, they both have been the target of massive propaganda, and they both have something to bring to each other. Is looking past one's own blind spots impossible to do? Once you are "right", are you "right for life"? Well, then, no one can tell you a thing that doesn't already agree with you, can they?

"Everything would be all right if everyone would just see things MY way." That's what I'm hearing from all sides. It's pretty tough being stuck in the middle of that, because you know it's gonna be a long time finding anyone to keep company with. Certainty is everyone's favorite intoxicant.

But it is the individuals (like YOU) who care how things turn out, and care what effects their actions have, rather than just how they can make a buck and increase their power, who have a chance of doing something (in my view) good. But they probably have to do some propaganda-cutting first, to avoid trampling others in their efforts to do and be better.

That's why I hang out with people like you. (Which is what I'm going to find on a gold forum, isn't it?) You make me think, and that's the thing I like to do first every morning (after having my coffee, that is).

Orville Goldenbacher (11/19/2000; 8:34:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41755)
a jolly good day in the neighborhood
http://www.etherzone.com/body.html
Like Clinton(s) killed all these people, hehe. He can't even get a little bush without getting his cigar caught in the cookie jar!!!

G.W bush may be the best thing for gold since the crucible, but i will be damned if he is any kind of a "LEADER" FOR THE PEOPLE! He is very good at doing what he is told, however. Be careful what you wish for.

JavaMan (11/19/2000; 8:11:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41754)
(No Subject)
http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=548&FS=Calhoun+Foresaw+This
We've probably all seen the county by county map that visually illustrates the demographics of votes between Bush and Gore but here is a great interpretation of what the data is saying:

From Mises.org: Calhoun Foresaw This - By Thomas J. DiLorenzo

"This is exactly what the USA Today county-by-county electoral map, and other post-election data, show. Gore's core support was in the inner cities, dominated by welfare recipients (including "affirmative action" welfare); the state capitols, around which reside thousands of state and local government bureaucrats dependent partly on federal largesse; the statist intellectual class which resides largely on the east coast, especially in New England; the leftist cultural elite on the California coast (the rest of California was solidly Republican); hordes of welfare-seeking immigrants, many of whom are illegal, along the Texas border; and the environmental zealots of the Pacific Northwest and elsewhere. Families earning more than $50,000 annually strongly supported George W. Bush, whereas those earning under $30,000 were strong supporters of Gore...

We had better begin seriously considering nullification, peaceful secession, and every other means possible of checking the ability of the federal government to loot the taxpaying population. For if the Left succeeds in achieving open borders, combined with a growing welfare state, then every penny of every American's wealth and income will be up for grabs to be distributed not only to other Americans, but to welfare leaches from all corners of the globe."

On another note, the problem with "hand counts"...

I would ask, do we want to count the valid ballots cast by American voters or do we want to count the "intent" of American voters?

Isn't it reasonable to believe that the best test to determine the validity of a ballot is one that registers a vote for a candidate after being processed by a machine designed to do just that? If the condition of a ballot is of such a nature that it fails to register a vote by a machine (for either candidate), then it should be considered invalid, discarded, and not considered in the event of a recount. This places the responsibility squarely on the voter to cast a valid ballot. A machine count of ballots is more consistent, and more accurate whereas a manual count introduces human fallibility and interpretation.

To demand a recount by hand removes the objectivity of a machine that is so essential to the election process and opens the door to subjective evaluation even with ballot counters of the highest integrity. If the ballot counters are less than 100% honest, this opens up a whole �nother can of worms. Now it is reported that ballots are being counted that aren't even punched but simply indented. Hand counts should be avoided to maintain the integrity of the process.

If the vote in Florida (or any state) is so close as to be challenged, then a second recount of the entire state would be appropriate and, had we done so, this mess would have been resolved last week with more certainty and confidence as to the validity of the results and without the media, the lawyers, the courtrooms, and Jesse Jackson et. al.

DaveC (11/19/2000; 7:49:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 41753)
Just to show how bad it is getting
http://claremontmckenna.com/ctd/index.html
I found this web site yeaterday:

Citizens For True Democracy

Truly amazing. They have posted the names and addresses of 189 electors from 19 states that went to GWBush. They want people to fill out a form letter requesting the electors to "do the right thing" and vote for the "popular" vote winner.

Here is a quote: "The electoral college is a disastrous institution. It destroys fairness, accountability, and accuracy in elections. There is only one solution -- its abolition."

Here is the letter you are to have sent:

As one of 538 presidential electors, you will help to determine the future of American democracy. If the Electoral College contradicts the nation's popular vote, American democracy will face a serious legitimacy crisis. You have the power to help our nation avert this crisis.

I understand that you are committed to support George W. Bush, but before doing so, you should weigh America's national interest. Your state, unlike many others, does not legally require you to vote for your party's candidate. To the best of my knowledge, you will face no penalties whatsoever if you decide to vote consistent with the majority of Americans.

Patriotism should come before partisanship. I trust that you will make the responsible choice.
END

Truly sad.

Canuck (11/19/2000; 7:40:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41752)
Miscellaneous
http://www.etherzone.com/body.html
"Here is the latest body count that we have. All of these people have been connected with the Clintons in some form or another. We have not included any deaths that could not be verified or connected to the Clinton scandals. All deaths are listed chronologically by date. This list is current and accurate to the best of our knowledge as of August 1, 2000."
-------------

-End Quote-

DaveC (11/19/2000; 7:34:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 41751)
Bonedaddy (11/19/2000; 6:31:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41747)
Thank you. As I read your post I thought about the "electoral blackmail" that seems to be coming.

Maybe this is why Tom Delay is massing the troops in the House? They may have to make the decision.

Whatever happens, it won't be good.

Pandagold (11/19/2000; 7:12:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41750)
A time for soul searching
It could appear, on the surface, that what has been going on over the past view days and commented on in these pages, has strayed from the topics intended. There is relevance if one realises that economics, financial markets and politics are all inter related. Activity in
the stock markets, it has been said, is as a result of about 90% sentiment Whether that figure is correct, I don't know, but it expresses a point..

So how people are feeling � especially in confidence, and well being for their future, is a measure that needs, very much, to be considered if you wish to understand the vagaries of the markets.

From what I, and many other �distance� viewers, have been reading, there is much soul searching going on within the United States today. This may be one of the few positives that will come out of this whole election debacle.

For so long, the dear American public has been media fed with the idea that all the spots and blemishes are on the �other guy's� face. Deep down, many didn't believe it, but in the face of such media-backed government (or is it government backed media?) hype, it is hard not to fool oneself in getting carried along with the tide of nationalistic jingoism.

In the early sixties, in spite of Vietnam, America, under Kennedy, had the world in her palm. Young and old, especially the young, saw in Kennedy (warts and all) a �human� politician. His face had openness that, even without his articulate, from the heart, command of the English language, you felt, reached out and touched you..

At the time of America's Camelot, it was not something one thought about; it surfaced on the day of his death. People all over the world � yes, even the young, were shocked in disbelief. Kennedy, embodied, sincerity understanding, compassion, and hope for a better future; qualities so sadly lacking in those politicians today, in any country, who are permitted, by the system, to emerge as, so called, �leaders�.

Not only Kennedy died on that day, the America the world was growing to love died. Whether Americans can, or want to, believe that, I'm not sure, but it is a view many that have a more impartial, and broader, view of America's place in the world would support.

It was the beginning of the end of "Happy Days" and Norman Rockwell's America.

A friend of mine once pointed out to me a simple way of determining the quality of a leader. Mentally place him and you in a real life and death situation, especially in battle, would you be confident with him at your side, and in charge.

How many of the recent US Presidents would measure up to this � LBJ; Reagan; Nixon: Clinton.? The only one who I would have had alongside me in such a situation would have been the man they killed - because he was such a man. He was no puppet, no stooge of the system, he animated himself; there was no arm up his back. making his mouth move.

What I am hoping out of all this, is that the United States will now be less able to push its ideology down its, believed, lesser mortals's throats.

We have a world growing smaller by the day. But, for the sake of humanity, and also to preserve differences as part of the aesthetics of life, we must be tolerant of those wishing to pursue their own culture, or political system. We all want to sit at the table and enjoy the fruits. Different sized portions will be accepted within reason, but don't take from another's plate � especially if he has less than you. Soon, there will be a worldwide stock market - a giant crap game for all. The Internet will link all the players, and for people like us all over the world, who like life in the fast lane, we could have a very exciting future.

Parsifal (11/19/2000; 7:09:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41749)
Witness to Gore Vote Fraud Goes Public on National TV
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2000/11/18/194259
Saturday November 18, 2000; 8:44 p.m. ET

Witness to Gore Vote Fraud Goes Public on National TV

Explosive charges of Democratic vote fraud leveled Saturday afternoon by Montana Republican Gov. Mark Racicot were corrobarted hours later by Jennifer Garcia, a Palm Beach County recount observer who gave her eyewitness account to MSNBC host Forest Sawyer:

SAWYER: You've heard these charges ... Karen Hughes, Bush spokesperson, and others have been making about irregularities in the vote counting?

GARCIA: Yes, I have.

SAWYER: So, you were in there for how long, would you say?

GARCIA: We started counting about 7:45 and finished up about 12:45 and we counted one precinct.

SAWYER: One precinct. So you've been in there a pretty good while. Have you seen these irregularities?

GARCIA: Yes, I have.

SAWYER: What have you seen?

GARCIA: I've seen tape on the back of ballots covering up holes where the Bush hole would have been punched. On several occasions the counter on the Democrat side placed a ballot which we had designated as a Bush ballot in the Gore pile. And actually the first time that happened the Democrat observer who was with me pointed it out and we had to stop the counter and have them put it into the Bush pile. And it happened on four other occasions.

SAWYER: So you've seen a total of what - about six problems so far?

GARCIA: Six just with them putting them in the wrong pile. We've seen tape. We've seen ballots that had markings all over them, ballots that just looked as if they'd been folded and not in good shape.

SAWYER: Now, are you seeing this only on the Democratic side or are you seeing some problems on the Republican side as well?

GARCIA: We've seen ballots with markings on them on the Republican and Democrat side. But most of the problems were with ballots that did have the Bush hole punched.

SAWYER: That is to say that they were trying to prevent them from being counted?

GARCIA: Well, I would say that when a ballot is designated as a Bush ballot and it's placed in the Gore ballot pile, once that ballot is placed in that pile it gets counted as a Gore ballot. It never gets looked at again. So I would definitely count that as a problem. And it never happened where a Gore ballot was placed in the Bush ballot pile or any other pile.

SAWYER: There are suggestions now, as you know, coming from the Bush camp and other Republicans that this is not a simple matter of human error or mistake or problems of confusion but this is, shall we say, a matter of motivation. That they want to do this.

GARCIA: Well, based on my experience, what I'm seeing is a
Democrat ballot counter placing a Bush ballot into a Gore pile, being told, and the mistake happening on several occasions. And it's not as if I'm the only person pointing out the mistake - when the Democrat observer is pointing this out and is concerned about accuracy of the count, I would say that that is not just a chance. And human error happens. However, when it's five or six occasions within 45 minutes of counting ballots, I'd say it's a huge problem.

SAWYER: Have you filled out an affidavit to this effect?

GARCIA: I have spoken to the Bush team. I have not signed the affidavit as of yet but I do plan on doing so.

SAWYER: Jennifer Garcia. Thank you for talking to us, Jennifer. I should mention that we intended to have a Democrat observer or counter as well, but because of technical problems we were not able to.

Parsifal (11/19/2000; 6:43:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 41748)
"Bush Campaign Alleges Fraud" spun differently by different reports
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/18/134509.shtml
The newsmax.com story is very different than any I find at reuters.com. Here's a URL to the closest thing I can find at reuters.com that approaches a report of this story:
(http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=politics&Repository=USPOLITIC_REP&RepositoryStoryID=%2Fnews%2FIDS%2FPolitics%2FPOLITICS-ELECTION-BUSH-DC_NEW.XML)

In fact, it mostly seems the two reports are not even of the same story. Several times in this contested election, I have heard members of Gore's team make statements along the lines of "No-one is accusing anyone of vote fraud . . .," which, if the newsmax.com report is true, makes such statements blatantly false. When those statements were made, they smacked of attempts to ward off accusations of fraud by pre-empting the accusations with statements along the lines of "We're not accusing them of fraud, so they cannot accuse us of fraud."

Here's the newsmax.com report:

Bush Campaign Alleges Fraud

NewsMax.com
Saturday, Nov. 18, 2000 2:54 p.m. EST

At a press conference in Austin Saturday afternoon, the George Bush Recount team indicated massive vote fraud was taking place in the Florida manual recount.

In her harshest rhetoric yet, Bush spokeswoman Karen Hughes said that the vote recount under way in three highly Democratic counties is "distorting" the vote.

She said there is "compelling evidence" that officials in the three counties are attempting to overturn the election results.

Montana Gov. Mark Racicot, who heads up Bush's monitoring of the Florida recount, said something was "terribly, terribly wrong" in the vote recount.

He noted that all election canvassing boards are controlled by Democratic partisans.

Racicot outlined what has been taking place in Palm Beach:

1. Chads have been taped to the backs of cards to hide votes for Gov. Bush.

2. Theresa LePore, the Democratic elections supervisor, is ignoring evidence of irregularities.

3. Ballots with votes for Bush were put in stacks of Gore votes. LePore has refused to correct the errors.

4. A Democratic observer admitted that the piles had been "sabotaged" overnight.

5. Counters are using ballots as fans and have been asked by Judge Burton to stop the practice.

6. Post-it notes are being used on the cards to distort the votes.

7. Exhausted and elderly counters have been used to do the recount.

8. The recount room is poorly lit and some counters have resorted to using flashlights.

9. Twenty to 60 ballots were dropped on the floor and staff were seen walking over ballots.

10. Things are in such chaos that two precincts had to be manually recounted twice.

In Broward county, Racicot said that:

1. Observers are also serving as counters.

2. Different counting table have different standards.

3. Confusion reigns in the recount, with ballots being moved from table to table without direction.

4. Chad has been found on floors and tables.

5. Rules have been changed.

Racicot also angrily charged that many military ballots have been disqualified in an effort to help Gore.

He also cited a Miami Herald report that said convicted felons and prisoners had illegally voted - including murderers and rapists.

Bonedaddy (11/19/2000; 6:31:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41747)
Dave C, you nailed it man!
Every American should fear for our country. We hear about the "Peach Pit Crisis in Panama", or the "Hangnail Crisis in Hungaria". But notice the media carefully avoids the "Crisis" label when we really do have a Constitutional Crisis on our hands. I also agree with Thaigold, that the charade does not end with the Florida Supreme Court. If I were an elector from any state I would prepare to be blackmailed. And be careful to avoid an unfortunate accident, like poor Ron Brown. Some of these electors will have secrets or will have trash dregded up against them. This travesty must stop now. If it doesn't the constituition will be laid waste. The air will go out of the markets slowly, faster at times, but the PPT will be there to help avoid any discovery that a "stock market crisis" exists. Layoffs will begin. If Bush does manage a win, he will preside over the next economic depression. Clinton will crow about the good old days when American had a great leader.
Get your house in order people. Examine your faith, your finances, and your fortitude. Have you ever wondered how people survived the first American Revolution or the Civil War? My warning seems dire, I know. This is because people are to busy trying to figure out who will "win". But, that is not the main attack. That is a diversion. The main attack is on the Constitution. It is the glue that holds this great and diverse society together. Liberals and conservatives are able to disagree because both sides are protected by our laws. Clinton-Gore are not Democrats, they are distroyers.

Oh hell, who is John Galt, anyway?

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 6:25:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41746)
Attn: wolavka: Re: AG CARGOLIFTER
Cargolifter AG website:
www.cargolifter.com/english/
I searched www.google.com search engine and it
gave me 5,310 results for Cargolifter...
That should keep you busy. Now tell us why you need the info

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 6:11:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41745)
One Man: Four Votes
... The Pen is Mightier Than the Ballot ...
Having my One-Vote been disenfranchised by all the hassles
in Florida, I decided to Vote a better way:

I have e-mailed my post:
ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 4:37:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41742)
After The "Election" ...
... A scenario to consider ...

To:
Ted Koppel / ABC News Nightline
Dan Rather / CBS Evening News
Tom Brokaw / NBC Nightly News
Jim Lehrer / PBS News Hour

If you can't beat 'em ... Join 'em.
Media spin. If they pick up on it, then it's One Man: Four Votes.

ThaiGold

DaveC (11/19/2000; 5:12:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41744)
ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 3:10:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41739)
Thank you for the nomination. I am humbled.

I find I cannot spend as much time here are I would like as there are just not enough hours in the day. But I continually come back here because I learn so much from the group of regulars.

It is truly an honor to walk with giants.

wolavka (11/19/2000; 5:07:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41743)
anyone have info on
A G CARGOLIFTER.

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 4:37:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41742)
After The "Election" ...
... A scenario to consider ...
If the Florida state Supreme Court decides (Monday) in favor
of Bush, or Gore, it isn't likely to end there. Either side would
invariably appeal it into the Federal Courts. And eventually it
would be somewhat settled by the US Supreme Court. But
then what.?. Certainly not the end of it. If Bush prevails, the
Electoral College members will be hounded and paid-off or
blackmailed to switch their votes. (There's already evidence of
Gore doing "research" into the backgrounds of Bush Electoral
Voters). So, by hook or by crook, Gore would receive their nod
and be "elected". But wait. It wouldn't end there. The 50/50
congress would be irate or bemused, but certainly see that
Gore would be so "tainted" as not to be a viable President.
What to do.?. Under the Constitution, one Senator and one
Representative could challenge any Elector's vote. Or more.
And probably would. Tilting it back to Bush. And ditto, would
be the response from an opposite party Senator and Rep. Now
we have a mushrooming crisis that even the most dense or
fanatically partisan politico can see would devastate the USA
for the next four years. Hardly anything could get done, not
even their Pork Agendas. So here's what will happen:
Congress will nullify *all* Electoral voters (Constitutionally) and
then the Congress will (Constitutionally) choose an alternate
COMPROMISE President and VP (only one of each) and
promptly draft/elect them into the vacant offices. They will,
unlike Clinton, rise to the occasion and finally put America's
best interests first. Almost unthinkable, but will come to pass.

Who then will these stalwart compromise draftees be.?.
Acceptable to both sides, for four years.?. And with promises
by each, not to seek reelection...

Try: For President: Retired Senator Sam Nunn (D) Georgia,
and For VP: Retired General Colin Powell (R).

I'm sure both of those men would welcome the opportunity to
serve their country meticulously, one more time, with Honor.

PH_in_LA .... F*arfel .... What would you think of that.?.
Comments anyone.?....

ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com

for

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 3:48:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41741)
Nukes in Their Back Yard
Attn: Black Blade (11/19/2000; 3:12:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 41740)
Black Blade:
The year 2020 referenced in your post/report seems far-off,
like the year "1990" and "2000" did in the 70's and 80's oil
crunches. Yet our and other countries did nothing..NOTHING..
towards meaningful alternative soloutions. And it isn't likely
this time around either, simply because as you pointed out,
those in charge "don't see the Big Picture" as always.

Myself, can forsee one thing that could change within the next
20 years (by 2020) to partially solve it:

If -say- Red China were to build massive Nuclear electricity
generating facilities, -say- in their western region, then build
extensive high voltage transmission line facilities into Europe,
as well as throughout Asia and SouthEast Asia. They would
become the energy-provider of moderate cost to a significant
part of the world. They could do this (nukes) with as usual
little concern from the environmentalist standpoint. Next, given
their proclivity to reverse engineeer and manufacture most any
form of modern technology at rock-bottom (slave labor) costs,
could also develop and market a viable Electric Vehicle which
could sweep the world in sales and become widely favored.

Having done all that, by 2020, it would give the Hydro-Carbon
Man another 20-year breathing spell to procrastinate. To 2040.
At which time I will be 100, and won't give a damn either.

Nukes.?. Not in My BackYard.!.

ThaiGold

Black Blade (11/19/2000; 3:12:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 41740)
Hydro-Carbon Man's Addiction to only get worse!
Good report, but some wrong conclusions
Oil Consumers Plead with OPEC
By Richard Mably

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) - Major oil consuming powers piled the pressure on OPEC producers on Saturday to ease high prices that are stunting economic growth but a forum here between the two sides was not expected to produce any immediate relief in the form of extra supplies. The United States and the European Union (news - web sites) said the economic impact of crude prices running at more than $30 a barrel for the past several months was plain to see with supply shortages and further price spikes at risk this winter. The warnings came as the West's energy watchdog, the International Energy Agency, released a new report forecasting that Middle East OPEC dominance over oil supplies was set to grow rapidly over the next two decades.

U.S. Energy Secretary Bill Richardson led the crusade for oil consuming governments, insisting that OPEC oil exporters were wrong to restrain supply while inventories of crude oil and heating fuel were dangerously low. ``Our view is there is a supply problem. Stocks of crude oil, distillates and heating oil are much too low,'' Richardson told a news conference. ``When oil is more than $30 a barrel, particularly developing countries are hurt. Stock level drops leaves the world vulnerable to spot shortages and price spikes,'' he added.

European Energy Commissioner Loyola de Palacio said oil prices that have more than doubled this year were to blame for one percentage point of inflation among euro zone countries. She said 0.3 percent of economic growth had been shaved from euro zone growth this year as a result. ``We have heard that the oil price is giving bad effects to the world economy, especially in the developing countries and the Asia region,'' she told reporters. In Seoul, leading Asian oil importer South Korea said high prices had knocked 3.2 percentage points off its oil demand growth in September this year, after its import cost had almost doubled.

OPEC oil ministers decided last week to refrain from any more oil supply rises this year to better assess the impact of its four hikes this year. Oil exporters are still recovering from a price crash in 1998, which created huge fiscal deficits in their economies and hit investment in oil production. Kuwaiti Oil Minister Sheikh Saud al-Sabah said pleas from consumers for more oil would go unheeded until OPEC meets again in January. ``Output will not be increased before the January 17 meeting. This is not in the pipeline,'' Sheikh Saud said.

Asked by reporters for his response to Richardson's comments, Saudi Arabian Oil Minister Ali al-Naimi said: ``We have said before that Saudi Arabia, and I believe OPEC, is ready to raise production if there is a shortage of supply.'' Some OPEC countries, looking ahead to a seasonal demand dip in the middle of next year, have said they want to begin talks on reducing supply despite prices well above their agreed target price of $22-$28 per barrel. ``We believe there should not be production cuts early next year. We believe consideration should be given to increases in production,'' Richardson said. Palacio said that despite the discomfort felt in Europe, the EU had made no further progress toward a decision on whether to release strategic petroleum stocks.

IEA Says Oil To Stay King

While high oil prices have forced oil importing nations to consider ways of reducing their dependence on crude imports, a new International Energy Agency report released here forecasts no escape from reliance on petroleum in the medium term. The Paris-based IEA in its world energy outlook said it saw growing reliance on oil and gas imports over the next two decades with OPEC nations grabbing an increased slice of a fast-growing international petroleum market. Executive Director Robert Priddle said world oil demand was projected reaching 115 million barrels a day by 2020 from 76 million bpd this year, annual growth of nearly two million bpd.

A transport explosion in the developing world and the lack of a substitute for gasoline and diesel meant efforts to reduce dependence on fossil fuel were likely to fail with oil expected to keep its 40 percent share of primary energy consumption over the next 20 years. ``The projections outlined here point to a fossil fuel future, a continued strong role for oil as a transport fuel and a further expansion of international oil trade,'' said Priddle. ''Governments will need to take much tougher action than has so far been the case if they are to succeed .... in achieving the ambitious environmental goals that some of them have committed themselves to.''

Asian tiger economies were forecast accounting for 45 percent of the 39 million bpd of growth to 2020. Oil demand growth in China alone was seen surging by seven million bpd with oil import dependence in the country ballooning to 77 percent by 2020 from 22 percent recently. Dependence on oil imports in Europe would rise from 52 percent to 79 percent with North American dependence by 2020 reaching 58 percent from 45 percent. Reliance on Middle East OPEC production would intensify. ``OPEC countries, particularly in the Middle East will be critical for meeting the demand for extra oil,'' said Priddle. Oil exports from the Middle East were set to more than double from 17 million bpd in 1997 to 41 million bpd by 2020, the IEA said.

Black Blade: Like a heroin addict looking for his next score, Hydro-Carbon Man is only interested in the here and now. Not having a comprehensive energy policy goes with the territory. Sec. Richardson is a fool! He still does not see the "Big Picture" here. The producers can pump oil day and night, and the SPR reserves can be drained, and the picture will still look bleak because without refining and distribution capacity it doesn't matter. Besides, OPEC producers are just about at maximum production capacity. Interestingly, the forecast is for Asia, and China in particular to grab an ever larger share of oil. Not surprising really, but the fact that these clowns are just now beginning to get a glimpse of the "Big Picture" is surprising in itself. Of course they still don't realize the most important part of this whole equation - the "Super-Giants" are in decline and no new ones have been discovered in decades! For every 4 barrels used, only one new barrel is found! Get the "Big Picture?" Hydro-Carbon Man is in for a "Crude" awakening. For a more detailed explanation refer to the original "Hydro-Carbon Man" post.

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 3:10:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41739)
Nominate to HOF: DaveC's Me The Victim post
Attn: DaveC (11/19/2000; 2:46:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41738)
DaveC:
Clearly you have just posted an eleoquent and heartfelt essay.
A pleasure to read it. Smooth and concise. Very readable.

It deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and I so nominate it.

ThaiGold

DaveC (11/19/2000; 2:46:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41738)
Me The Victim
I wrote this last week after the election fiasco started. I think it helps to explain the American psychology of the late 20th century.

Me The Victim

I am up early this morning writing this because I fear for my country. I received some emails from family members the past few days that have disturbed me greatly. These family members see this election fiasco as a set of random events. They see Bill Clinton as a great leader who will get us through all of this. They believe calling out the National Guard may be the right thing to do.

In 1960, Vice President Richard Nixon lost a very close election to Senator John F Kennedy. Nixon could have contested the vote, especially in one certain Illinois district where voter fraud was known to have occurred. Nixon chose not to challenge the vote "for the good of the country." He put the country ahead of the ME.

In 1974, as the Watergate scandal became too big, Richard Nixon resigned from the highest office in the land in disgrace. He could have stayed on another two years and fought it, stonewalling the prosecutors and lying to the nation. But eventually he realized that he had to step down "for the good of the country." And yes he could have been impeached. But that would have dragged on for a long time. To me, resigning in disgrace was a much harsher punishment.

In 1976, Gerald Ford lost a very close election to Jimmy Carter. He could have contested the vote also but chose not to. He did it "for the good of the country." Gerry is a Michigan boy, you know.

Now we come to the 1990s. The ME generation of the 60s is now in control. Bill Clinton, boy governor, elected with a minority of the vote, forces mothers all across the country, including my sister, to explain to their 9 and 10 year old children what "oral sex" is. Just the thought of this should disgust everyone.

But it did not have to happen. Bill Clinton could have stepped down. He could have resigned "for the good of the country." But he chose to stay and fight and lie. "I did not have sex with THAT woman." Why? Because America has changed. It's no longer about "the good of the country" or "the dignity of the office", it's about ME.

So the country was dragged through a year of disgust as we learned more about one man's sexual proclivities with a 23-year old than we ever wanted to know. Some things are better left unsaid.

During this time some of us recognized that America was being subjected to psychological warfare. "Reframing" the argument is the term used to describe this type of warfare. This is accomplished by the use of the mass media and the greatest instrument of propaganda ever invented; the television.

Watching television is generally a passive activity. The mind is put at rest by the generation of alpha waves and is now open to suggestion. Therefore, if something is repeated enough times, e.g. "buy the dips" or "vast right-wing conspiracy" the idea actually becomes part of the social conscience.

America was seduced into thinking that Bill Clinton was a victim. His private life should not be open to such scrutiny and judgement. The modern culture becomes one of "victimology." A century ago America was still like the orient. In those days the culture was one of "shame." There was a common and easily understood set of rules about what was right and wrong. And although I would not be surprised to learn that some presidents were unfaithful, it certainly was not made common knowledge. But when you broke the rules, you were "shamed."

Richard Nixon was shamed. After resigning in disgrace from the presidency, the State of New York moved to take away his law license. Instead of fighting this, he gave it up voluntarily. He did the right thing.

The State of Arkansas is currently reviewing the law license of Bill Clinton. They are looking to remove him from the bar because he lied to a grand jury. If you or I did this we would find ourselves in jail. But Bill Clinton has his lawyers in Arkansas fighting this. He does not want to give up his license. He is a victim. It's all about the ME.

Another example of the combination of the ME and psycho-warfare is the abortion debate. There are many children today conceived out of wedlock who are thankful that their mother's did not believe in abortion. But if we look at certain aspects of this debate we see eerie similarities to the Clinton case.

First, look at the words we use: Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. What does it mean to be Pro-Choice? Are you Pro-Choice? You must be because you have CHOSEN to read this. You CHOSE to get out of bed this morning. You CHOOSE to be productive.

What about Pro-Life? Are you Pro-Life? What is the opposite of Pro-Life? Well, obviously it's Pro-Death! Are you Pro-Death? I hope not.

What's the difference between "killing an unborn child" and "aborting a fetus"? The latter makes it sound like a laboratory experiment. This is done to desensitize you. It takes away the pain of the thought of killing a child. By reframing the argument from "a child" to "a fetus" we can rationalize the killing in our minds. We have been reprogrammed.

Just think, in today's modern world, we can kill an unborn child, watch Dr. Kevorkian assist our mother commit suicide, and watch a war live on television, all in the same day. We are completely desensitized to the pain of death and the value of life.

The other important and similar aspect of abortion is it usually a decision made by the ME. The ME does not want to make the harsh adjustments to its life for a child because it takes away from the ME. The ME needs attention focused on ME and ME cannot afford to take it's attention from the ME and give it to the child.

Now what's is interesting about this is how this social conscience has manifested itself across the US. I reference the map on the internet which shows a breakdown of how counties voted for president in the election. The "urban sprawl" areas voted overwhelmingly for Al Gore. Rural America voted overwhelmingly for George Bush. Why? Is it because the urban areas are filled with people who can relate to the ME? Urban dwellers are focused on their lifestyle, their social standing, how much money they make. They want the best of everything without giving up anything. I know, I used to live there. It's all about the ME.

Vice President Al Gore has lost the original vote count in Florida. But this was not a satisfactory outcome for the ME. He needs a recount. Then when he loses the recount he cries foul again. The ME cannot accept to idea of losing. This is not about the "dignity of the office", this is about the ME. He cannot fathom the thought of gracefully walking off into the sunset and possibly never being heard from again. The ME won't allow it.

The argument is then "reframed" in the mass media. The ballots confused the urban voters, poor senile senior citizens. They are now victims and victims do not have to answer for their actions. They are asking to "abort the fetus" so that they can have the result that the ME requires.

The country is now having a debate. But the debate has no rules. The Gore supporters believe that we should either keep counting until he wins or have another vote. But what will they do if he were to lose another vote? The answer is simple: they will find another reason to dispute the results because the ME will never accept defeat.

The Gore supporters also believe that he should win because he has won the popular vote. But the rules of the game are explicitly described in our Constitution. The reasons for this are described in The Federalist Papers, a series of essays used in the 1780s to describe the proposed system of government to the people of the newly independent country. But because the rules do not allow for the desired outcome, the ME generation is now conditioning Americans to change the rules.

Another outcome of the Clinton impeachment was to project Hillary Clinton as a victim. A loving wife who stood beside her man during his time of trouble as he was attacked by the "vast right-wing conspiracy."

Hillary has now been elected senator from New York. Her first statement last Wednesday was that she would sponsor legislation to eliminate the Electoral College. She wants to change the rules. Why? Because she knows that in 2004 when she runs for president, she will not be able to win if the Electoral College exists. So because she cannot win a fair fight, she wants to change the rules.

The real issue in this Florida fiasco is not stated by the mass media and not understood by the average American. The real issue is that the US Constitution, the "great experiment in self-government" is being undermined once again. This attack on the Electoral College fits right in with all the other attacks currently being directed at the Constitution. Here is a quick list:

Hate crimes legislation. These laws will turn more people into criminals as your actions and thoughts will now be subjectively evaluated for any sign of "hate" against a protected group. This is an attack on the First Amendment free speech. This was the essence of Fascism in 1930s Europe. Personally, I hate crime.

Gun control. There are over 2000 gun laws in the US today. Guns prevent over 1 million crimes per year. More people die each year from being misdiagnosed by their doctors than from guns. More children die playing football that die from gun accidents. But there is no movement to ban children from playing the violent game of football. Cities are now suing gun companies. Why? Because someone has to help the victim since personal responsibility has been eliminated from the social conscience.

Search and seizure laws. These are attacks on the fourth amendment requiring warrants to enter you home. Congress just passed legislation to allow police to access your home when you are gone without a warrant. Your rights to privacy are being taken away at an accelerating pace.

Of course, the tenth amendment protecting states rights has been under attack since Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War. For those of you who are not aware, the Civil War was not fought over slavery, but over economics.

This current Florida fiasco is not a random event. It is a calculated event designed to further undermine the Constitution of the United States. I have tried to outline here what is happening in the US, albeit briefly, by attempting to get the reader to look at the bigger picture. All is not what is seems.

God Bless America.

Black Blade (11/19/2000; 2:44:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41737)
Hydro-Carbon Man Update!
Article from Toronto Globe and Mail
"Cooking With Gas"

By ANDREW BELL

Natural gas prices are soaring amid growing demand from U.S. power generators, and the market isn't likely to wane any time soon. Investors, many of whom will pay vastly higher heating bills this winter, may want to ease the sting by buying shares of major Canadian natural gas producers. 'Feel that nasty draft? It's coming from south of the border, where power-mad America is terrified that this winter may be a frozen ordeal as energy shortages worsen. Oil prices crested above $34 (U.S.) a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange (Nymex) this week -- up from less than $12 last year and only just short of the 10-year highs of more than $36 they set in October. But the real heat is building in the market for natural gas, the relatively clean-burning and flexible fuel that has become the energy source of choice for a digital economy with an insatiable demand for electricity. For investors, many of whom will be paying vastly higher heating bills this winter, the bull market in natural gas is an opportunity to earn a fat profit on the shares of major gas producers, analysts say. Natural gas-fired electricity plants in the United States will burn 38 per cent more gas in 2000 than last year, energy consulting firm Resource Data International says. For the natural gas market, "there's a new sheriff in town," says Martin Molyneaux, veteran oil and gas analyst with First Energy Capital in Calgary. "And that is the electricity players." Natural gas for delivery in December blasted through $6 per million British thermal units on Nymex this week, setting record highs. Gas prices have soared from less than $3 in 1999 and less than $2 in 1998. To be sure, some of these stocks have already had a major runup and they're vulnerable to any correction in energy prices. Few professional observers expect gas to maintain its current lofty valuation of about $6 -- CIBC World Markets analysts, for example, assume a Nymex price of only $3.85 for this year and $3.75 for 2001. But astute observers argue that the power industry's insatiable demand for gas will support prices for years to come. Electricity producers love the flexibility, low emissions and easy construction of gas-fired power plants. Gas bulls include Michael Economides, a chemical engineering professor at the University of Houston, who's celebrated for making a canny prediction last year that oil would soon top $30 a barrel. Prof. Economides and colleague Ron Oligney co-wrote this year's The Color of Oil,a popular history of the industry. They reckon natural gas is set for a long-term boom and it'll supply one-half of the world's energy by 2020, compared with about one-fifth now...'

Black Blade: Say goodbye to cheap NG! Higher NG prices are here to stay. Hydro-Carbon Man's addiction is going to be an expensive habit and impossible to break anytime soon.

ThaiGold (11/19/2000; 1:33:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41736)
Was Ross a One-of-a-Kind.?.
Attn: elevator guy (11/19/2000; 0:38:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41735)
elevator guy:
Nice post. Enjoyed it's relevance. Myself, having voted for
Ross Perot the first-time (92), because I felt he could win and
was honest. Was disappointed that he didn't "campaign"
harder, and sorta dropped-out towards the home stretch.
Then again, in 1996, Ross Perot was my vote choice simply
because neither Dole nor Clinton deserved it. Although I knew
Perot stood no chance of winning. My conscience prevailed.

My question for you, is: Whom do you see as a viable person
to run in 2004, with the attributes of Ross Perot, yet a person
who could have enough "charisma" to attract the necessary
hoards of uninformed voters who vote along those lines.?.
And also a person who could sweep the media off their feet.
Without all those features, there isn't a chance in a zillion of
ever getting Our Country off this merrygoround.

ThaiGold

elevator guy (11/19/2000; 0:38:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41735)
Whazzzzzzuuuuuuup? Who let the dogs out?
Or an alternative subject title could be,

Who is bashing gold?

Perot called Mr C a "chicken man", in a thinnly veiled allusion to his being put into office by T y s o n, the largest chicken processor in the world. Beneficial legislation was for sale. T y s o n was under investigation for something like 20 years, but no grand jury ever brought charges against him for drug smuggling. (Doesn't it make you wonder how someone can be under investigation for so long, with no indictments? Whats up with that?)

Then there was M e i n a (sp?) airport, where unmarked planes from South America magically flew under radar, and delivered cocaine. An eyewitness that said he saw envelopes of money being handed to Mr C, but this witness has since dissapeared into the vast wasteland of bodies that stood in the way of the 90s greatest political machine.

One girl that was suing him for sexual harrasment, when Mr C was G overn or, was named K a t h y F e r g u s o n. She did not have the foresight to go national with her story, like P a u l a J, and thereby to obtain safety through notoriety. She myteriously shot herself. A r k a n s a s flu, they call it.

A small aside here, it is not for forgiveable fleshly sins that I fault the man, but for the criminal cover-ups and even murders that are used to maintain power. Anyone who knows anything about these issues dare not say anything, for fear of reprisals, and which said reprisals are final.

By using F B I files, (Mr C fans, please remeber F i l e g a t e, come on now, you can say it)

By using F B I files, they dig up dirt on the messengers, deny, deny, deny, and if they can't squash the message, they take out the messenger. Just like 2000 years ago.

When Mrs C was going around the country, promoting Nat. H e alth care, her trust fund was shorting pharmacutical stocks. All completely innocent and co-incidental of course.

Another cronie was R o n B., who died in a plane crash, just before he waas to testify to congress about a myriad of ugly behind the scenes dirt. There was no one who knew more about Mr and Ms C than R o n B.

The plane R o n B. was on hit a mountain, and the authorities claimed the one working navigation system was malfunctioning. As a plane goes from beacon to beacon, it makes course adjustments along the way. That plane was flying straight as an arrow, with no deviations from any beacon marker, when at the last moment, a marker beacon on the mountain line was turned off. The person who turned it off started to run his mouth, and was talking to some of the media, and then because of that, he was called to testify that he was told to shut the beacon off, and he would get rewarded. Well, just before he was to testify to congress, he got his reward, and he was shot dead.

All the people on the plane, including Ron B, died on the nose-first impact, except for one crew member in the tail section, who sustained only minor scratches. She was taken to the hospital for "observation" anyway, but during the trip, she died.

All the official reports fly in the face of logic. Pilot was messed up, but he was sober, navigation system was defective, but it was working flawlessly, yada, yada, yada. Any reports to the contrary of the official spin just totally dissapeared off the "radar" screens of our nation.

Mr C ordered the UNPREDECENTED creamation of ALL the bodies, including the crew member who died on the way to the hospital from her minor scratches, with NO AUTOPSIES, and without the customary repatriation of the whole bodies in caskets, in a VERY, VERY strange move.

Lest anyone think I am bashing Mr C unfairly, I will add here that the other major political party has its share of scandals, murders, genocide, etc, etc, etc.

In fact, the father of the current challenger for the Whi tewashed House provided deadly nerve gas to S a dd a m H, to "surpress" the sepratist Kurds. Men, women, children. I remember a picture of a Kurdish mom, who despite the rag over her mouth, inhaled the nerve gas and died, and dropped her dying daughter on the ground, and her daughter dropped her toy doll, whose eyes looked up to the heavens expressionless. This is what my country does abroad, and all my countrymen can think about is petty little divisive issues. We are mushrooms, raised in the dark, and fed bullsh*t.

So the media, they had a term they used, to "supress", rather than label it GENOCIDE. I cant think of a more kin der, gent ler thing to do to those Kurds, than to surpress them. (So by this token I could safely say that the elder statesman has thousands of dead people in his past) There, now I am being fair, and can not be accused of merely bashing Mr C, and his cronies, by pointing out the mere 30 dead. Paltry by comparison.

Why am I going off on all this? Just to shake up, and wake up, anyone who has a naive notion that anyone who makes it to the House has any shred of decency, or that any candidate is their own person, or that they are not bought, or that they will not do bad things (read that as murder, or even genocide) to get, and maintain power.

So dont get all excited when your candidate wins, or loses. Unless its someone really different like R o ss P, its just gonna be more of the same.

As a nation, we ae smoking a giant reefer, and our minds are clouded with small divisive issues, that are fed to us, and designed to keep us internally divided. And when they take away our guns, we will be easily assimulated into the N W O.

Thats why I liked Perot. Sure, he had big ears, and a piercing drawl. But I am not voting for the handsomer candidate. I want a leader who had business savvy, which Perot did. I want a leader who is not on the take from C h i n a, and RP was/is a patriot, who genuinely loved this country. When he tried to show people graphs of just how insane, short sighted, and criminal our federal money management is/was, people got bored, being raised by TV to think in 1/2 hour segments, and instead turned to that brash young firebrand from A r k a n s a s, who was much handsomer, and Rp was soundly, roundly dissed from the East to the West coasts, and made the brunt of jokes and derision. Thats what you get when you try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and pisses off the pig.

What the people want is someone to lie to them, and tell them stuff they just know isnt true.

Like when you buy a car, you know the salesman is full of sh*t, but you really wouldnt feel right unless he runs up to you when you step out of your car, and says "May I help you?" Its like we know that no matter what, we are going to get f*cked, so in that case we might as well have have some dinner and a movie first.

When RP tried to get the real issues on the table, ugly issues with BIG NASTY TEETH, people got turned off. An interesting point is that with the vote split between RP, GB, and Mr C, it could be said that numerically speaking, MOST people did NOT vote for Mr C. He was just the one with the most votes, but the majority of voters actually voted for some other candidate.

So then the goal becomes to package oneself so as to obtain the widest possible voter base. Try to appeal to different ethnic minorities, elderly, envionmentalists, anyone that is pre-disposed to joining causes they feel strongly about, well thats the type of people they aim their speaches at. It is not so important to those looking for office as to what you think, or what your social/religious views are. All they care about, is can they get you to vote? Its just a numbers game.

Only the most naive really think that their candidate gives a rats a*s about them.

Those in power, or obtaining power, know that they dont need to make sense, or talk about the nasty issues, they just need some style, and some spin, they need to cater to the media, and with them on board, theres no stoppin' 'em. They throw out little straw issues, so as to substitute for for the real problem, which is taxation tyranny, and fiat debt money. The modern politicians dont care about the USA per se, they will sell it out in a heartbeat to a foreign power, in exchange for military secrets, money, etc. Hell, they would even sell plots in our sacred Arlington National Cemetary, or nights in the Lin Col n bedroom. They dont care if they lie, cheat, and steal, as long as the general public is living in a deluded state, where all they can see and think about is the media spin.

So dont tell me about your favorite candidate, and how unfair the votes are/is/were being tallied. There is a charade going on, to renew the illusion that the government is still in the hands of the people. (Not that it isnt still in our hands, but the system has been greatly comprimised and influenced, until it only LOOKS like we are voting for a real leader)

The king has no clothes, and there is not really any candidate at all, just a perceived lesser of two evils.

John Doe (11/19/2000; 0:23:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 41734)
The people that walk in darkness
Let's cut to the chase. I have every reason to believe this election and every one since at least 1960 has been rigged, whenever necessary. Sure, some ballots might be "dimpled" and have "hanging chad", even if one hadn't attempted to jam a rod through a whole stack of them at once. And, sure, this farce could have "just happened", but seriously, this country is too well-controlled for that particular outcome. Never have there been two more globalist, elite, yes-men toadies placed in the two-party presidential slots. If there really were a tie, one or the other would quickly have been told to concede, even upon a statistical tie (which would have been rigged away, anyway, with the flip of a few switches), and the race would have been "decided" even before the PST polls closed. There are only two logical reasons the country is being served up this "circus" (and I certainly hope you've saved some of the "bread" from the last few years):

1) There is a struggle for power at the highest levels of the shadow government.
2) This spectacle is designed and propagated for an intended effect(s).

I'd discount #1 out of hand, as airing dirty laundry has never been the modus operandi of the oligarchy. If there are internal problems in the D.C. Kremlin/Reichstag we'd never hear about them. This would be settled elsewhere, well out of the eye of public scrutiny and without riling the masses in the slightest.

I believe #2 is in effect. This is psychological warfare of the ilk that is pressed upon America every few years or so to keep us agitated, fearful, and divided, e.g., Kennedy & King assassinations, Vietnam, Watergate, OJ, Monica, etc. In addition to the ongoing mind games, this event also appears to being used to further weaken what's left of the legitimate U.S. federal government, trash our "hopelssly anitquated" Constitution, and perhaps provide cover for pulling the economy into recession, among probable others.

Don't play their game. Don't fall into the Team A, Team B, us-versus-them garbage. Don't be fodder for their evil, manipulative battles. This is exactly what is desired. They can only win if we play their game. Don't feed upon or convey yet another huge, manufactured wave of negativity and distrust. First they want your hatred and fear, then they want to poison your mind, kill your body, and destroy your soul. Recognize that America is the main battlefield for a destructive, sinister, globalist agenda and leave it at that. Take these events and neutralize their negative effects and, where possible, turn them into positives. Turn off the TV, change the subject, expose the war, read to a child, write a book, or learn to juggle.

ViewYesterday's Discussion.

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