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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/18/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

beesting (09/18/00; 23:45:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 36925)
$$$$>>>>>>------------------$280.10------------------>$$$$
Contest #2 my 30 words:

BOE auction will focus just enough attention on Gold this week,that as the Stock Markets continue to decline Worldwide, Big Players will start to invest in GOLD!(Wishful thinking?)


HAPPY 2ND BIRTHDAY USAGOLD!

Pssssssstt...anybody out there want a hot tip?

Last year the U.S. Mint sold 61 tonnes of Gold in American Gold Eagles.
This year as of last week the U.S. Mint had sold only about 1.3 tonnes of Gold Eagles.
Every coin collecter knows when an unusually low number of coins are minted in a year the value of those coins can go much higher than years when a large amount are minted.
Soooo, we have the potential for a rare double profit on year 2000 U.S.Gold Eagles, if the price of Gold rises, your coin rises in value, and if this years minting is real low collecters for years to come will bid up the prices, especially first issue of the new Millinium.(year 2000 date)
I'm sure USAGOLD could help with purchasing arangements.
Those in the Know....are Buying Gold!!!.....beesting.

Aristotle (09/18/00; 23:28:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 36924)
Tate! Your post was a gem! Funniest thing I've seen in a week!
"Recently I brought $5k of cash for deposit at chartered Canadian bank. Teller requested written explanation as to the source of my cash. Since my views changed quite a bit on bankers, I indicated it was from Fractional Reserve Lending."
-------------------------------
You are a comedic genius! The truth is always stranger (and funnier) than fiction!

It's nice to finally "hear your voice."

Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle

Peter Asher (09/18/00; 22:32:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 36923)
(No Subject)
Journeyman (09/18/00; 18:55:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 36907)
Very profound post!!

Puts alot in perspective, however --

I fell like im back at college with a horrendous reading assignment.

PH in LA (09/18/00; 22:13:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 36922)
**Campaign Quizz**
What US presidential candidate dared to write the following on July 21, 2000?

"...The greatest global financial, monetary, and economic debacle in the several recent centuries of globally extended European civilization, is currently in progress; we are at the brink of the worst financial and monetary crisis in more than two centuries. We are presently on the steepest part of the slope of a boundary-condition, which separates the continued existence of the present world financial system from its doom. We have the chance to come through this crisis quite successfully, provided we abandon the foolish effort to maintain the present financial system and its policies in their present form. We, ourselves, our nations, can survive this crisis very well; but, to bring about that success, we must accept and deploy some very radical, very deep-going changes in the way governments act, and the way most people think at the present moment..."

megatron (09/18/00; 22:10:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 36921)
WAC?
I love this place and and everybody here. Your all just super! But cul de sac helicopter landing pads?? Holy @%%##^%
Look, there's a web chat run by a guy named David Eike, real nice guy, regular joe. Loves that sorta' thing. Hit em' up, he'll talk your ear off. There's a link on the GATA website( I bet). WACKY.

Marius (09/18/00; 21:52:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 36920)
Al Fulchino (Baldwin); Java Man (currency)
Al,

I heard about the Bladwin "threat" on Rush today, checked out a couple of articles on Drudge, and had a good laugh. Your second post used the word "fascist" in the same sentence as Baldwin's name. Hmmm. I was trying to remember where I'd heard that before, then I looked at one of the many clips on my office door. It shows Herr Baldwin made up to look like Hitler, and underneath is his quote re: Republicans. "Stone them to death! Go into their homes and kill their wives and their children! Kill their families!" (I snagged that little gem from FreeRepublic.com, as I recall.)

Kim has obviously latched on to a real sensitive guy. Quite the moralist. (Note the only reason he's denying he'll leave the country is that he hasn't found one who'd have him.)

Java Man,

I've always had a mental block re: the interrelationships between currencies. This has worsened as all now float in relation to each other. I try to read or talk about it, and smoke comes out my ears. It's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to trade in currency futures--I just don't grasp it like I do other markets. Frustrating, but true.

M

Bonedaddy (09/18/00; 21:21:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 36919)
Rattler, I love philosophical questions....
You inquired : "Can financial markets finally reject and abolish a major historical political decision? I am referring to a political decision in the broad sense, not to any politician's decision. (An example is the euro project)"
Bd- Financial markets are interesting animals, are they not? We have some markets that are sanctioned by some "authority". This authority is usually some wise, benevolent, all seeing eye that regulates fairness and equality. Of course both "fairness" and " equality" are nebulous terms at best. (It kind of depends on what the meaning of "is" is.) These sanctioned markets are subject to government regulation and have an air of safety and respectability. Since a lot of nice people earn their living pinching a little margin off of the money that travels these paths, they have a huge need for the rest of us to place our trust in them. It's a good thing for those of us think and act independently that a lot of easy marks walk the midway in this offically sanctioned carnival.
And then there are the BLACK MARKETS. (Personally, I've always been partial to things black. AR-15s, Glocks, Black Talons, Black Blade, ect.) Ever notice who is calling the other markets black? Why, the sanctioned markets, of course. Somebody else has got to be pointed out as the "risky scheme" or folks might start looking too closely at how these sanctioned markets are operated.
I hope I don't appear to be straying too far from your question. But herein lies a truth: Sanctioned markets are always held under the sway of the politicos. Given enough time, "major political decisions" can be shown to be a bad idea and abandoned in favor of free market controls. Someone can probably name a political decision, like maybe prohibition of liquor, that finally yielded to market forces. (Only after it make Joe Kennedy and Al Capone wealthy. Capone had to go to prison so Kennedy could achieve official sanction. There is no honor among crooks.) So... yes, when the reason for the political decision (manipulation) has out lived it's usefullness it will be rescended. Usually with a great deal of fanfare. Senate hearings and the like. It makes the people who got scammed feel better if there is some sort of investigation and somebody goes to country club prison for nine months. I have a hunch that the stock markets will end up that way. ALGORE will try to hang it on Bill Gates or somebody else who got fabulously wealthy.
So finally...... I hope I haven't been too boring, YES! YES! I believe markets do eventually abolish political decisions. Free (black if you please) markets just do it faster and below the radar of the sheep that feed sanctioned markets.
The GOLD market manipulation will be a great one to watch unravel, as long as you hold the physical.
Regards, Bd


andrew the kiwi (09/18/00; 21:21:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 36918)
Amendment , Previous post should read Contest #2
previous post should be CONTEST #2

andrew the kiwi (09/18/00; 21:17:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 36917)
Contest #1
>>>>-------$285.50---------->

A paper gold rally in the face of a pending Middle East oil and military standoff will be the order of the day. The Nasdaq and Dow will continue their selloff trend as negative sentiment begins to take hold. New Zealand will win their first olympic medal!

SHIFTY (09/18/00; 21:01:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 36916)
lamprey_65
Good link on gold prospecting.

I wonder when our mining friend YGM will be back?

He should be getting frozen about now.

$hifty

Al Fulchino (09/18/00; 20:58:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 36915)
Tate
just caught your message. First of all welcome. And secondly, a comment about what your parents had to endure. A lot of people do not understand how the might of the state forces many to endure bullying. And that is what inflation and the like does to one's savings. What could your parents and their countrymen do? They were unarmed. The framers of our constitution warned us aptly, telling us freedom was ours if we could keep it and that the price of freedom <liberty> is eternal vigilance. Then of course they gave us one precious tool. The Second Ammendment.

Anyways , welcome


Journeyman (09/18/00; 20:54:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 36914)
***********"CONTEST #2"************

Two, on September 22, 2000, (USAGOLD's Birthday) at the COMEX close the exact gold price
on the December contract will be $268.53.

If there has ever been a time when the establishment needs to keep a lid on the price of gold to mask the USD inflation and keep it from releasing BIG-float, lying in wait in computer memories all around the world, this is it. In conjunction with their biggest gun, the serial gold give-aways by BOE, they will pull out all the stops, and will manage to drive the Dec. price below $270 for the last time in history.

O.K. That is the last time before paper and physical separate and paper officially becomes purely the bet it is.

Regards,
Journeyman


Al Fulchino (09/18/00; 20:47:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 36913)
Dave C, Galearis, and USA GOLD
Dave and Galearis,

those Baldwins always seem like an angry bunch, the whole lot of them. Don't tell Oro, but they are a real bunch of...what was the word he used? Fascists? <big smile>

USA GOLD,

Instead of offering you congratulations for a birthday anniversary, I offer you congratulations by way of my appreciation for the time and effort it takes to put on this show of yours and with the help of others like Town Crier. Additionally, the tone of any organization comes from its head. This is a nice place. I don't think you seek the compliment, but it is deserved, nonetheless. Best wishes from a not always on topic poster.

Canuck (09/18/00; 20:37:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 36912)
Contest #2
\\\\_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _\
//// $ 269.60 /


I believe tomorrow's BOE auction will be disappointing. The 'subscription' rate has been dropping and at a projected 1.3 times rate I fear a drop. Often we have had producers bidding causing a post-auction rebound but rumour has it already that producers are forgoing this round.

Thanks,

Canuck.

P.S.: I hope I'm dead wrong!!

Tate (09/18/00; 20:31:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 36911)
My first post
Hello everybody.

This forum for me was quite a discovery a year ago. Finally I'm ready to offer e few words of my own.
I have to admit this site is #1 in offering current world financial and economic outlook. Since politics are
closely associated with money - political outlook too.
I spent my early years in Eastern Europe and based on experience of my parents I'm aware they have been robbed at least
three times by governments. In fifties soviets peddled long term investment certificates to their citizens
that eventually where declared non refundable and only very small portion was reimbursed in late 1980's 100 to 1. In 1961 they devalued rubble 10 to 1 with restriction imposed to how much you can convert and only paper that was on bank deposit. So people that did not trust soviet bank and kept paper money in mattress lost it all.
Perfect crime. Most of as read about third devaluation starting in late 80's. It is funny occasionally to come across old things saved by my mother with price stamped on them. This is how extreme soviet economy used to be. Fortunately for me I was just a young chap chasing girls and did not care about organized state crime and corruption.
Today at different time and place I find it is difficult to be a good citizen when you are ware of things from the past and material discussed on this forum.
Recently I brought $5k of cash for deposit at chartered Canadian bank. Teller requested written explanation as to the source of my cash. Since my views changed quite a bit on bankers, I indicated it was from Fractional Reserve Lending. Teller could not understand it. I suggested she asked manager. Manager read it carefully but I could tell he did not understand either. He asked if it was lending. I confirmed. It is obvious how few people are aware the ways and means banking system steels from average folks. You can also say I became quite cynical to the system.
More I learn about dirty secrets of this great country of USA it starts to resemble glorious former USSR.
Same deceit and manipulation of statistics, news, politics, currency.
My economics exposure amounts to only 1 year of University of Toronto, reading local financial Globe and Mail and 1 year of USAGOLD.


****************************CONTEST #1 ***************************************
If I, a USAGOLD __lurker_____, ( Fill in the blank -- a "poster", or a "lurker"), were to name the one specific development or event that would break gold out of this price range, it would be
run on physical metal. I call it HUNGER FOR GOLD that spreads around, caused by slowly rising worldwide inflation induced by currencies devaluation and meltdown that in turn would make impossible for FED and associated parties to continue POG manipulation. US Dollar inflation was already revealed in several ways. Inflated US stock bubble revealed monstrous float of paper. Rising price of Black Gold (oil) revealed falling paper value.


Many thanks for excellent educational material posted here regularly.

Tate


Canuck (09/18/00; 20:19:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 36910)
Contest #1
If I, a USAGOLD poster, were to name the one specific development or event that would break gold out of this price range, it would be WORLD TENSIONS.

I had a very interesting conversation with my manager at work today. He was born in Palestine and at the age of ten his family came to Canada. He told me grave stories of wars in the 60's and 70's. The middle-eastern countries have fought many wars and today there are more anxieties present than ever before. He told me that for several years he has wanted to take his family back to visit but would not now, "..it is too volatile, it is a war waiting to happen.."

Thank you.

Canuck.


Leigh (09/18/00; 19:33:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 36909)
Midas on LeMetropoleCafe
http://www.lemetropolecafe.com
Interesting Midas tonight. Part of Black Blade's "Hydro-Carbon Man" is in it!

Cavan Man (09/18/00; 19:26:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 36908)
Japan
Nikkei diving well below 16K right now. Government has announced an additional sum of $94 Billion to stimulate economy.

Question: Where does all that Yen come from?

Comment: With the deflationary example of Japan, I have a hard time envisioning deflation in western markets unless there is an unanticipated (deflationary) event. Would an inflationary monetary policy then become the order of the day?

Journeyman (09/18/00; 18:55:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 36907)
Free-Trade Part ??: Silent Pardners @ALL, ORO
http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/philanderknox.htm

This was going to be the last installment in the "Free-Trade" series. But then ORO posted (09/18/00; 12:32:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 36890), "The Question of Whom - THC," in which the following three paragraphs appeared:

The clearest presentations of the significance of discretion were presented in the US before and after
WWI where first national charters were granted to particular banks and later the Fed was created by
the same groups, who remain the shareholders. In the days of the big trusts the structure of an
industrial group was a number of corporations coupled to a bank. By government favor, the few
banks at the center of industrial combines like these could finance the takeover of competition by
either direct purchase (using unlimited credit) or by "predatory" competition, whereby unlimited credit
was available to the combine member but was not available to the competition. Chase made
Standard Oil possible, Morgan made US Steel possible, Rothschild made Royal Dutch/Shell
possible, etc.. -ORO

The bankers carved up industries among themselves and did not compete at all. The purpose of the
various banking and industrial laws was to enforce the non-compete agreements of banks and
industrial conglomerates built around banks by their issue of infinite credit. The purpose of the
bankers was to create monopolies, and they used the regulatory power of governments to enforce
them and avoid competition from upstarts. -ORO

The structure was copied in Japan's Kairetsu, in Korean Chaebol, and in German corporate
structures as well (actually, the German structure may have been the original from which others were
copied). Just as the original bank charters were given to a favored in-group the cross holdings were
also enforced by government through capital gains taxation that made the disentaglement of
conglomerates impossibly costly (this was done at a later stage). Speak to any educated person in
the "developing countries" that does not belong to the ruling elite, and they will tell you of the total
corruption of their own governments and of the US State Department and political leadership that
press the "developing economy" governments to favor these same banking organizations and their
local partners. -ORO


So, the "Silent Partners" installment of "Free-trade" isn't going to be the last installment after all. It's just too apropos to ORO's work above.

Sooooo h e r e we go!

_Silent Partners_

Now we've seen the most obvious winners in the "trade wars," government cliques --- _and_ their suck-ups, brown-nosers and hangers-on. But what about their silent -- and often invisible -- partners? Or is "masters" the appropriate label? There is an incredible amount of in-breeding so it's usually hard to tell. It helps to take a quick look at them back in history before they faded into deep cover - - - and what we find won't be a big surpise - - -

... the robber barons employed a strategy of locking in and stabilizing their advantageous positions *by using government authority and regulations to reduce competition, keep prices at very profitable levels, control labor problems, minimize risk, and generally make themselves quite comfortable*. They also expanded their scope of operations, including financing and extension of credit, to other countries and used government to aid them in these adventures. [Philander] Knox, of course, was a key man, perhaps the key man, in the [McKinley, Taft, Teddy Roosevelt, etc.] Administration in all of this, both as Attorney General and then as Secretary of State. -condensed from Bill Benson's research report on the ratification of the 16th Amendment, "The Law That Never Was," Volume II (1985), pages 122-135. <http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/philanderknox.h tm>


"Philander Knox?" you're probably asking, "Who the heck is Philander Knox??"

Well, Philander Knox is a good player to keep your eye on because he was a key operative in many of the so-called "robber-barron" shennigans during this period in history, especially extending from his appointment by McKinley (just before McKinley was asassinated) as Attorney General in 1901. This was a key period in American history because it was at this time that the machinations leading to the faked ratification of the 16th amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the so-called "income tax" were hatched. And Philander Knox, getting his start as a robber- barron legal eagle with Carneige and Frick, was at the heart of it, as must be any trigger man.

This period of U.S imperialism featured the annexation of Hawaii in the 1890s at the request of American businesses there despite the unanimous opposition by Hawaiians; the taking of Cuba and the Philippines from the Spanish as well as from the native rebels whom the U.S had ostensibly come to assist in gaining their liberty (this included the massive slaughter of a hundred thousand Filipinos by the U.S Army in a war in which the news media was censored. (even William Randolph Hearst, who had helped instigate the war with Spain, was aghast and disgusted.) [**1*] "The Law That Never Was," Volume II (1985), pages 122-135

But these old industrialists weren't neophyte gamblers -- they wanted practice runs before setting up the "Central-Bank-lends- money-to-the-central-government-and-has-interest-guaranteed-by- government-tax-robbery-of-all-citizens-present-and-future" scam thay had planned for here in the good 'ole U.S. of A.

By Philander's time, this scam was old news here. It was first attempted by Alexander Hamilton right after the First American Revolution in the form of the Whiskey Rebellion:

As Alexander Hamilton, a prime mover behind the intended central "Bank of the U.S." knew, once a government develops a track record for making this sort of thing [in this case, excise taxes on manufacturing whiskey] work, it can borrow money based on demonstrated ability to enforce such exactions, such taxes. The ability of governments to tax in order to pay interest on money they borrow gives those involved in lending that money, usually people who own "central banks," incredible power and wealth. Hamilton, well-known as an elitist, needed to get the untried Federal Government to prove its taxing power so the "Bank of the U.S.", his creature, could be sure of collecting interest on money it planned on loaning to the new government. The Whiskey Rebellion, perhaps largely engineered by Hamilton, yielded that proof. Tax enforcement "proceedures" such as supression of the Whiskey Rebellion and seizures by the IRS loom-stealers and vat-smashers are the main underpinning of the US Treasury bond market, which columnist Vin Suprynowicz and others aptly call "extortion futures."
+
That governments think they have the right to _force_ you to pay _their_ bills is the essential difference between them and all other organizations, except, possibly, the Mafia. Once they convince others they can force you to pay interest on money they _borrow_ _as well_, that's the beginning of what Joseph Schumpeter dubbed the "fiscal state." For obvious reasons, people who own central banks _WANT_ governments to borrow and to go into debt and regularly get them to do so. That's the source of the annual federal budget deficit and the "national" debt, and virtually ALL governments have both. The American version of the "fiscal state" now costs us, on average, about 52% of our income, and this will rise to 84% to 94% for those born after 1992 according to unchallenged Congressional testimony and page 25 of Bill Clinton's 1994 Federal Budget proposal, [2] appropriately suggesting the possibility of inter-generational warfare. Some would say this situation has it's roots with Alexander Hamilton, central banking - - - - and in the failure of the Whiskey Rebellion. -ALEXANDER HAMILTON, CENTRAL BANKING - - - and THE WHISKEY REBELLION??, An Excerpt from "WHERE GOVERNMENTS COME FROM" By L. Reichard White <mailto:lreichardwhite@yahoo.com>

Jefferson put an end to Hamilton's "Bank of the U.S." scam, and "Old Hickory" Andrew Jackson beat back a second similar attempt at great personal cost. But that was then and for Philander and Co,. this was now. U.S. involvement in Honduras and Nicaragua were tailor made for a new test of the more sophisticated scam- to-come:

Then came the Honduras financial crisis of 1909, in which Knox brokered a deal for J.P. Morgan & Company to make huge loans to that country, backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S., and for American bankers to take control of the Honduras taxing authority (to ensure adequate cash flow to make the loan payments). Knox's diplomatic maneuvers resulted in the U.S. Navy being sent to support and give victory to rebel forces in Nicaragua, who then made arrangements, again devised by Knox, to give control of Nicaraguan taxing authority and tax collection to Americans. American bankers then immediately made big loans to Nicaragua, once again guaranteed by the U.S. government, providing a risk-free investment environment for Knox's banker friends. -"The Law That Never Was," Volume II (1985), pages 122-135

In the case of the U.S., they had plans to loan BIG money -- so they wanted to be sure the U.S. central government here had access to BIG tax income to pay the interest. That's what the income tax was all about. And later, during Roosevelt The Second (to increase the bankers' sense of security), they added F.I.C.A., so-called "Social Security," - - - also a _tax_ - - - which goes into the same coffers as does the income tax. Now two thirds of Americans pay more in Social Security TAXES than they do in income TAXES. Jolly good scam, eh?

One might wonder why [Philander] Knox seemed to be in such a hurry in 1913 to declare the 16th amendment ratified. We can see that it was because of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. *It was important to the banking interests that would be lending money to the U.S government that there be an assured flow of revenue, especially since the robber barons would be removing themselves from the income tax system.* *Just as an ordinary bank wants to know that a borrower who is given a mortgage has a cash flow adequate to meet the payments, so the banks comprising the Federal Reserve System wanted to be sure the federal government had a dependable method of tax collection in place to provide ample money to pay its debts to them.* *The income tax and the Federal Reserve are inextricably tied together; it was not mere coincidence that they happened in the same year.* The robber barons, their bankers, and Knox had developed this concept and practiced it in Latin America, and in 1913 they were ready to apply it to the United States. -prepared by the We The People Foundation For Constitutional Education, condensed from Bill Benson's research report on the ratification of the 16th Amendment, "The Law That Never Was," Volume II (1985), pages 122-135. <http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/philanderknox.h tm> {REFERENCE_A:Philander&The16th}

I know what you're thinking: "Journeyman, you must be wrong -- the rich don't want to pay income taxes. It must have been the liberals who somehow engineered the income tax to transfer wealth from the rich to the poor, you know, like Robin Hood." Nope - - -

The 16th Amendment itself was given its decisive shove through Congress in 1909 by Sen. Nelson Aldrich of Rhode Island (co-author of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913), who spoke for the "community of interest' of both [J.P.] Morgan and Rockefeller. *This represented and led to an astonishing reversal of attitudes among the old-line big-business conservatives in the Senate, who had long staunchly opposed an income tax. Obviously, something was afoot to change their minds. It was that the robber barons had already figured out how to avoid the proposed income tax, especially through the establishment and use of foundations, the number of which grew from 18 in 1910 to 94 by 1920 and 267 by 1930. The super-rich have avoided the income tax ever since, leaving it to be paid instead by the middle and lower classes.* -condensed from Bill Benson's research report on the ratification of the 16th Amendment, "The Law That Never Was," Volume II (1985), pages 122-135. <http://www.givemeliberty.org/features/taxes/philanderknox.h tm>

Now you're thinking, "Look Journeyman, if as suggested by "The Law That Never Was," the sixteenth was never legally ratified, how did it become law?" Well, that's why Philander was the boy to watch --- he declared it ratified, appropriately _by fiat_, and then promptly left office. He got away with it because everyone assumed it must have been legitimately ratified by the requisite number of states. Apparently no one checked very closely, at least not until Benson and Co.

NOTES:

1. Find and read a copy of "A Pen Warmed Up in Hell" by Samuel Clemens, otherwise known as "Mark Twain," for a highly inflamatory and very informative account of some of this. He was invited to witness a particularly henious machine-gun massacre of Filipino tribal women and children in person.

2. According to Clinton's Office of Management and Budget (OMB), if the growth of the federal deficit isn't stopped, children born after 1992 will pay between 84% and 94% of their income for local, state and Federal taxes. -Rep. Donald Manzullo, R-Illinois, C-SPAN, 17 May 1995 ~3:57:40 PM. This figure has been repeated by many others, including John Kasich, R-Ohio, Ross Perot, (_FACE THE NATION_, 4 Feb., 1996) etc. and is attributed to page 24 or 25 of the Clinton 1994 budget in a section entitled "The Prospects for Inter-generational Warfare"

Regards,
Journeyman


lamprey_65 (09/18/00; 18:51:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 36906)
Question for the board
http://imcg.wr.usgs.gov/usbmak/ic8517.html
Found this link while doing research on my hobby - gold panning. This is a dated government publication and most of the information is still valid, however, the section quoted is now part of history.

My question before I post the lengthy quote: Why did the Feds allow private ownership just as the U.S. defaulted on its gold obligations? There has to be a connection, just too convenient to be mere coincidence...or was it?

"When selling gold, the owner must comply with a number of requirements laid down by the Federal Government and
administered by the Department of the Treasury. The following statement relating to gold in its natural state, gold amalgam, and retort sponge was issued by Treasury's Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations in January 1969 and sums up the pertinent gold regulations then in effect:

"Gold in its natural state" is defined in the Gold Regulations as being gold recovered from natural sources, which has not been melted smelted or refined, or otherwise treated by heating or by a chemical or electrical process. This gold may be purchased, held, sold, transported within the United States, imported or held in custody for domestic account only without a Treasury Department license under the provisions of Section 54.19 of the Regulations, regardless of the amount involved.

Gold in its natural state which has been recovered from natural sources in the United States and which has not entered into industrial or monetary use, may be exported without a license. In connection with the exportation of such gold, the exporter is required to execute and file in duplicate a certification on Form TG-34 on which information is required concerning the amount, source and description of the gold, and the consignee. Copies of this form are available from the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations, Department of the Treasury, Washington, D.C. 20220. The executed form should be filed in duplicate--the
original with the customs office at the port of export and the copy with the Office of Domestic Gold and Silver Operations.

Pursuant to amendments to the Gold Regulations which were effective March 18, 1968, the U.S. mints and assay offices no longer purchase gold from private sources.

Gold in its natural state and gold amalgam may be melted, smelted or refined or otherwise treated by heating or by a chemical or electrical process only pursuant to a Treasury license or without a license within the limitations contained in Section 54.19 of the Gold Regulations, as explained below.

Gold amalgam results from the addition of mercury to gold in its natural state. Gold amalgam produced from domestic sources may be dealt with in the same manner as gold in its natural state.

In addition, gold amalgam may be heated to a temperature sufficient to separate the mercury from the gold (but not to the melting temperature of gold), without a license by the person, or his duly authorized agent or employee, who recovered the gold from natural deposits in the United States or a place subject to the jurisdiction thereof. The retort sponge (amalgam cake) resulting from the heating of the amalgam may be held and transported by the person who mined or panned the gold, without a license, except that he may not hold at any one time an amount of retort sponge produced by him which exceeds in fine gold content 200 fine troy ounces.

Retort sponge produced by a miner or panner may be sold to a person holding a Treasury Department gold license authorizing the purchase of such gold, or to unlicensed persons provided that such unlicensed persons do not hold, at any one time, more than 200 fine troy ounces of gold. Persons other than the miner or panner, who acquire retort sponge, may sell the gold only to the holder of a Treasury license.

An unlicensed person may not retort gold purchased by him from miners or other persons, nor may he sell the retort sponge resulting therefrom.

Gold in melted or treated form may be sold or disposed of only by persons and concerns operating under a Treasury gold
license authorizing the disposition of gold in such form.

In addition, buyers of gold may also be required in some States to hold a State license.

The dollar value received for gold will vary somewhat since the introduction of a two-level price system in 1968. Previously the U.S. Treasury had purchased gold for $35 an ounce, less a small charge for service and melting. Currently, one price exists for official monetary transactions at $35 an ounce while another exists for private transactions based on open-market demands. The price paid to the private seller of gold will depend not only upon the fineness and purity of the gold but on day-to-day market fluctuations. Financial pages of most newspapers and industry trade journals should be consulted for latest price quotations."


lamprey_65 (09/18/00; 18:38:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 36905)
Today's Fleck
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/insight/contrarian/index.gsp
"Greasing the wheels. . . Speaking of rising oil prices, my friend Colin Negrych recently offered a succinct description of the present inflationary environment created by the Fed and other central bank pranksters:

The G-7 seems to expect it can print all the money required to paper over every financial market crisis that erupts in the hopes that propped up asset markets will greatly increase aggregate demand. Yet they seemingly expect increased aggregate demand not to translate into demand for commodities, especially oil. In short, they hope to limit the inflationary consequences of their monetary ministrations to asset prices where inflation is roundly welcomed rather than being seen as the threat history has repeatedly and clearly demonstrated it to be. The current price of oil reflects the fact oil production and delivery
capacities have not kept pace with the growth in demand for energy which resulted from monetary madness. Oil prices manifest what central gold sales and bond purchases
disguise: inflation."

Gandalf the White (09/18/00; 18:16:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 36904)
>>>>-------$ 277.90--------->
GC0Z Friday settle price is going to be an indication of better things ahead. Even though the world Stock markets are sinking like the proverbal rock the bright yellow glow of Physical Gold will force the paper gold into the upper range of the last week.
<;-)

USAGOLD (09/18/00; 17:23:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 36903)
Falling Volumes. . .
http://live.altavista.com/scripts/editorial.dll?ei=2184787&ern=y
Gold Losing Market Maker as Top Banks Merge
___________________________________________

The Reuters' article linked above and dated September 15th, 2000, supports views and offers something of a confirmation for views I posted at the Daily Market Report last week on what I believe could be circumstantial evidence that the gold carry trade may be unwinding. If true, I would consider such an unwinding extemely bullish for the yellow metal OVER THE MEDIUM TO LONG TERM, as I discussed in that analysis.

Some of you may have seen this article, others maybe not, so I thought I would put up here just to be sure as many people as possible read it.

The key paragraphs are the last two:

"Analysts say the falling number of counterparties in the bullion industry limits the scope for official, producer and speculator activity.

'You've lost Republic, Swissbank, and now Morgan or Chase. And there'll be more where that came from because they're trying to cut costs and raise efficiency," added the London-based analyst."
---------


I might add that there is likely an additional interest in reducing risk. After these speculators do hang there hats in banking institutions. Those words " worldwide physical gold demand" keep echoing in this hall, and I can't help but think that more than one CEO at these banks is wondering if the risk/reward ratio is still intact. My feeling is that it is not.

One last little observation from the article:

"The macro gold market is getting smaller -- that is worrying for market participants," said a London-based analyst.

TownCrier (09/18/00; 16:53:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 36902)
Comment for Sir Beowulf
"If 5-10 producers would show up and just place bids at $5 to $10 below spot knowing they probably won't get any gold then their bids will be counted in the subscription rate and would make it look like a large turnout occured. If the cabal wants to give every goldbug and gold producer the finger, then we should give it right back at them by shocking the sale with an astounding number showing up for bidding."
------
While this sounds like an interesting publicity stunt on the face of it, I think you might be underestimating the ability of the media to spin the news against your desired outcome. Please consider this:

The auctioned gold will be allocated at a price representing the base point for the cummulative 25-tonnes being sought with bids higher than all others participating.

In THEORY, London is the base of a fully-operational gold market that in THEORY should be able to supply 25-tonnes repeatedly as necessary on any given business day to whomsoever would desire it at prices near the AM or PM fix. So in THEORY, there should be no legitimate reason that anyone should go to the trouble to participate and submit bids, especially not with bids that are any higher than the London fix. (Significantly higher bids would instantly signal that the confidence in the theoretical gold market is collapsing and only physical positions have merit.)

Barring that signal being sent at this particular auction, the allocation price will be near the London fix. Meanwhile, your plan would indeed result in a tremendous oversubscription to the auction...a huge "buying interest" (beyond the allocated 25-tonnes) that the media would be very quick to point out was entirely, by definition, at bids that were only LOWER than the auction's allocation price level. The media spinmeisters and ususal suspects would jump all over this in their standard attempt to turn gold sentiment lower...the nature of the game.

RossL (09/18/00; 16:47:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 36901)
#### GOLD MEDALS GUESS ####

1. USA, 43
2. China, 21
3. Russia, 16


JavaMan (09/18/00; 16:44:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 36900)
Hello Marius...

I was trying to say that releasing oil from the SPR wouldn't have a significant impact on prices or the void left by foreign oil drying up. In other words, its not a substitute for a real energy policy as per your "higher prices are what is needed if there are to be incentives to explore/extract more oil, develop alternative sources of energy, etc." Looks like we agree.

On another note, I was surprised to see and hear several mentions of the negative effect of the low Euro on US business, especially, high tech. This seems to have come out of nowhere. Makes for an interesting situation, no?




RossL (09/18/00; 16:16:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 36899)
>>>>-------$ 276.10--------->

Contest 2: Gold futures will move listlessly sideways this week, allowing us to exchange more federal reserve notes for gold coins at rock bottom exchange rates.


JavaMan (09/18/00; 15:48:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 36898)
***********"CONTEST #2"************
on September 22, 2000, (USAGOLD's Birthday) at the COMEX close the exact gold price on the December contract will be >>>>-------$272.00--------->

It seems that the POG is due for a rise but, short term, this could be offset by negative BOE publicity leaving the price pretty much where it is.

Hah! I'm starting to sound like some kind of analyst! And now for a look at those pork bellies...


TownCrier (09/18/00; 15:38:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 36897)
The Central Banking Insider has been updated!
http://www.usagold.com/centralbank/current.html
At the link given above (permanently found on the HomePage and the Daily Market Report page) will take you to the first installment for September. Here's a sample of notable news to be found there...

***Total international reserves up by 9%***
According to the IMF annual report released on September 15, total international reserves (which include gold) increased by 9% during 1999 and stood at 1.6 trillion SDRs. Developing foreign exchange reserves rose by 12% to SDR 766bn...

***Debate over foreign reserves***
At Jackson Hole, there was also a general agreement that countries must opt for either fully fixed exchange rates or floating rates, but avoid a halfway house of a managed exchange rate. It was then pointed out: if central banks are not supposed to intervene, why do they have huge reserves? However, for all the debate this subject generated at the conference, this is not a new subject.
+
[TownCrier's note: This is such an easy concept to grasp, why do they struggle with it? Simple thought reveals that because a national central bank can typically print national currency at will, it is only the reserve assets that have domestic and international bargaining power in the event that confidence is lost in the national currency. The simple concept is that the reserve assets (foreign exchange and GOLD best of all) represent the meaningful savings account of the nation's government. And the lesson to be learned is: if your own currency is of dubious merit for use in this meaningful "savings account", then the same can be said of other national currency. That is what makes gold the best reserve asset of them all.]
+
Despite seeming consensus about the "uselessness of reserves", central banks continue to accumulate foreign exchange as can be seen in the latest IMF annual report - and this is not just in developing countries, but also developed. The ECB is discussing intervention - and putting its toe in the water (see above note). At a seminar held by Central Banking, it was argued that the essential purpose of reserves is to provide confidence - to provide confidence in the external value of the currency, to provide confidence in a country's credit rating, and to preserve the central bank's reputation and esteem as a major player in the financial markets. Reserves are not just there for intervention purposes. Politics also play its part. Also, more countries see reserves as a fund for future generations...

***ECB sells dollars, but "not intervention"***
The ECB has said that from last Thursday and over the next few days, it will sell the EUR 2.5bn in interest which it has accumulated on its foreign exchange reserves since the start of 1999. Once this has been done, the ECB will repatriate interest earnings on a regular basis...

***Iraq prepares to "dump the dollar"***
The government of Iraq have revealed that it is preparing to replace the dollar as a means of payment in overseas transactions. It is thought that the government may begin to use the euro for foreign transactions...

Cavan Man (09/18/00; 15:27:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 36896)
USAGOLD
The recent issue of News and Views is excellent Thanks!

Galearis (09/18/00; 15:10:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 36895)
@ Al Fulchino
Little news items like these are always worth a chuckle, yes? But at least there is nothing "subliminable" about them. Alex Baldwin should perhaps read this forum a little - he might come to the conclusion that none of the candidates are wearing any clothes.

Happy Birthday USAGOLD!

Beowulf (09/18/00; 14:54:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 36894)
BOE Sale and producer involvement
I think the producers staying away from the sale is the
wrong thing for them to do. If the BOE is going to keep the
price of gold low with these sales by scaring the market
then the producers should stick it back in there faces. The
BOE wants the lowest possible price, so the producers should
show up and give them that low price. The market wants a
high subscription rate but has priced in a possible 1.3
times oversubscription. If 5-10 producers would show up and
just place bids at $5 to $10 below spot knowing they
probably won't get any gold then their bids will be counted
in the subscription rate and would make it look like a large
turnout occured. If the cabal wants to give every goldbug
and gold producer the finger, then we should give it right
back at them by shocking the sale with an astounding number
showing up for bidding.

Cavan Man (09/18/00; 13:17:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 36893)
ORO
For those of small, average and great means, what is a prudent positioning strategy at this juncture?

Thanks in advance for your time and comment...CM

TownCrier (09/18/00; 13:13:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 36892)
Hear ye! Hear ye! A call to contest! A birthday celebration and great gold giveaway!
http://www.usagold.com/acontest.html
To celebrate the approach of September 22nd, marking the second anniversary of the birth of the Forum here at USAGOLD, we have organized several games of skill and luck for your participation...with prizes of GOLD to be awarded to the several winners.

Click the link to see the contest rules, and let the games begin!

wolavka (09/18/00; 13:04:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 36891)
oro BRAVO
reporting level cftc comex 200 contracts
position limit 3000 net in spot month.

Futures will run, margins increased to force out longs.

settled in fiat.

options kaputt.

ORO (09/18/00; 12:32:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 36890)
The Question of Whom - THC
The gold markets contain both paper and physical players. The banks have discretion to serve the customers in the proper ratio to their importance to themselves and to the governments who chartered them. Most important are the oil based customers of banking, to whom most governments are indirect (through local private purchase of oil) or direct customers. Some particular individuals and families also carry much weight and will have bank discretion and regulatory discretion in their favor. Presumably, these already carry a strong balance of physical gold and have been among the beneficiaries of credit expansion through the past century.

The clearest presentations of the significance of discretion were presented in the US before and after WWI where first national charters were granted to particular banks and later the Fed was created by the same groups, who remain the shareholders. In the days of the big trusts the structure of an industrial group was a number of corporations coupled to a bank. By government favor, the few banks at the center of industrial combines like these could finance the takeover of competition by either direct purchase (using unlimited credit) or by "predatory" competition, whereby unlimited credit was available to the combine member but was not available to the competition. Chase made Standard Oil possible, Morgan made US Steel possible, Rothschild made Royal Dutch/Shell possible, etc..

The bankers carved up industries among themselves and did not compete at all. The purpose of the various banking and industrial laws was to enforce the non-compete agreements of banks and industrial conglomerates built around banks by their issue of infinite credit. The purpose of the bankers was to create monopolies, and they used the regulatory power of governments to enforce them and avoid competition from upstarts.

The structure was copied in Japan's Kairetsu, in Korean Chaebol, and in German corporate structures as well (actually, the German structure may have been the original from which others were copied). Just as the original bank charters were given to a favored in-group the cross holdings were also enforced by government through capital gains taxation that made the disentaglement of conglomerates impossibly costly (this was done at a later stage). Speak to any educated person in the "developing countries" that does not belong to the ruling elite, and they will tell you of the total corruption of their own governments and of the US State Department and political leadership that press the "developing economy" governments to favor these same banking organizations and their local partners.

For most of us, there is no such favor expected. Even some very big fish are not going to get their gold contracts honored in gold. Instead, there will be an attempt to print up enough credit to fill up the margin accounts in order for the holders of futures contracts to buy the bullion on the market. The limit would be the encroachment of filling margin accounts on the scale of capital. As the game played out at the TOCOM and NY paper palladium markets; through forced settlement and by excess margin posting requirements, so too will it play in gold.

The Morgan move of its bullion banking to London may have to do with jurisdictional shopping, in that London may offer a kinder regulatory and legal environment in which to selectively default on delivery obligations.

The favored few - particularly oil interests, would get their gold, the rest will get a set number of dollars that will correspond to a particular "official" gold price. After this occurs (or a little before), the physical gold market will transform the "street" price of gold as if all dollars from settlement of the contracts are bidding for new mine supply, and as if all of the monetary base is competing for the above-ground stock of gold.




DaveC (09/18/00; 11:47:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 36889)
Al Fulchino (9/18/2000; 7:07:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 36880)
I will donate Federal Reserve Notes only.

My gold I keep for myself.


Leigh (09/18/00; 11:21:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 36888)
Representative Ron Paul
Just received this e-mail:

Representative Ron Paul and other members of The Liberty Group will be giving speeches about the United Nations, national sovereignty, and H.R. 1146 during 5-minute, special order speeches on the House floor this evening. We anticipate the 5-minute, special order speeches will begin around 6:30 ET. They will be a part of C-SPAN's regular coverage of the U.S. House.


Rockgrabber (09/18/00; 09:56:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 36887)
(No Subject)
Mother Bank says "Rising oil prices may dash East Asias ""remarkable"" economic recovery."

What The Heck? How can one not have a recovery if their system is inudated with loans that become available for them to use when these loans are somehow worth something. And they call it remarkable.. Why because they were behind it?? Does that make it remarkable??

Cage Rattler (09/18/00; 09:38:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 36886)
A Philosophical Question...
Can financial markets finally reject and abolish a major historical political decision? I am referring to a political decision in the broad sense, not to any politician's decision. (An example is the euro project)

wolavka (09/18/00; 08:53:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 36885)
new york close
Dec gold should close today 276-and magic #.

not for investment advice.

wolavka (9/18/2000; 7:34:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 36884)
Happy B day Gold
approaching magic # 277.40 in dec

Sharefin (9/18/2000; 7:29:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 36883)
For ORO
Oro,

Thank you for response to my inquiry regarding the concept of gold bonds. Your response has cleared up my doubts regarding the "gold bonds" concept. I appreciate your generous sharing of your time.

I would imagine that:

*If gold bonds are indeed popular among CBs/major international organizations, then in order to satisfy the demand, most of the volume must be on the OTC market.
*The gold bonds are clearly not backed up by a system that would insure delivery in physical gold, and from this standpoint they are probably used as a way to "hedge" against an increase in the POG without actually buying gold and forcing the price up.

Wishing you and all here a wonderful day,

THC



wolavka (9/18/2000; 7:29:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 36882)
paper mkts
Two sides to the coin, also two side to derivatives.

Futures and options:

One will burn for sure.

Trail Guide (9/18/2000; 7:22:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 36881)
Happy B-Day USAGOLD!


This forum has covered a lot of ground during it's time. But in an off take from a famous saying;

---we have miles to go before we sleep--- (smile)

Talk about good words; when reading ORO (9/18/2000; 5:53:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 36874)

I am reminded of another great thinker that said
---give me a place to stand and I can move the world-----

Of course that original thought was referring to physical leverage. ORO's post is the kind of solid rock from where Another places his wealth building pry - bar. Very few will gain from using such a bar in real life, because one has to have a heap of mass behind it. Oil is that mass that's
moving the paper fraud into the open! ORO, you have said it all in that post.

ALL;
I am close to distilling a lot of input and am about to start replying to some of the comments and questions sent my way. In today's markets we are trully seeing "leverage in action".

thanks
Trail Guide




Al Fulchino (9/18/2000; 7:07:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 36880)
This from Drudge, plus I will throw in some gold to help him move
MUNICH, Germany (AP) - If George W. Bush (news - web sites) wins the U.S. presidential election this November, he may not be the only one moving into a new house.

Kim Basinger said her husband, actor and Democratic party activist Alec Baldwin, was serious when he said he would leave the United States if the Republican wins.

``Alec is the biggest moralist that I know,'' she was quoted as saying in Focus magazine, which hits newsstands Monday. ``He stands completely behind what he says.''

Asked if she'd move with him, Basinger said: ``I can very well imagine that Alec makes good on his threat. And then I'd probably have to go too.''



DaveC (9/18/2000; 6:50:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 36879)
Reasons for Swiss Franc Tank Journeyman (9/17/2000; 3:22:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 36821)
http://www.capitalinsight.co.uk/Home/Article.asp?ArticleFile=130900swissy.pdf
Good article on net capital investment flows leaving Switzerland in the last 15 months. About 30% of Swiss GDP left the country for investment elsewhere.

I have a hard time believing either interest rates of gold sales are the result of the current currency devaluations versus the dollar.

I think it's investment flows, join the mania, coupled with excessive borrowing to service debt. Currently $4 USD of new debt required to increase GDP by $1 USD.

With Bond and Note futures breaking down are I write this all heck should break loose soon. Everything I see in my charts points to reversals in gold, silver and european currencies and also the Aussie $.



Black Blade (9/18/2000; 6:08:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 36878)
@SteveH
Just headed out the door. - Just printed your post and taking it with me. Hope to read it while drowning "flies" this morning. Keep it up. Maybe I'll take my SKS with me for some fun, then off to hunt dove this afternoon. Thanks - Black Blade

Black Blade (9/18/2000; 6:04:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 36877)
***********"CONTEST #2"************
Two, on September 22, 2000, (USAGOLD's Birthday) at the COMEX close the exact gold price on the December contract will be $273.80.

There'll be confusion over the BOE auction and low subscription. Gold price will be directionless as "analysts" decry the demise of gold, and proponents see the process as – a sham!




SteveH (9/18/2000; 6:03:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 36876)
Hmmm!
Michael,

I have made many posts about gun control but always try to tie it into gold control. So thanks for the kind words.

The plight of the two-member working families can be directly attibutable to closing the gold window in the US in 1971 and to the extending printing of US dollars with no gold backing. As inflation ate away at the table of most Americans the couple had to send not only its man to work, but its woman too in order to satiate the ever inflating dollar. Oddly, our society changed its view of the working woman and equality in order to overcome the social mores of women in the workplace. I just wonder how many people realize that a goodly portion of their lives are spent combating inflation caused by a lack of US monetary discipline and the dollar being depegged from official gold? Is it possible that equality of the sexes was caused by going off the gold standard? Nahh, couldn't be...could it?

Food for thought.

And here is another thought for those into protecting gold:

RIGHT TO CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON

The Myth

Anti-gun proponents often use the expression, "There is no right to carry a concealed weapon." At first glance, most of us (whether anti-gun or pro-gun) cannot readily present a pro or con argument against such a phrase. Why? The phrase catches one off guard – the phrase is accurate in so far as it presents a phrase that does not exist in any constitution. If it doesn't exist in any constitution, state or federal, then it might just be true. The phrase is actually too simplistic to properly represent the truth. Its simplicity is its strength; its weakness is its distance from the actual value that it tries to place in disrepute. So it is time to put this phrase in its proper place; it is not a phrase that shows merit. It is catchy phrase without proper intrinsic worth.

The Reality

In fact, "Concealed weapons are an individual right." Why? The Federal Constitution and most State Constitutions specify the individual right to keep and bear arms. In order to avoid the "collective" versus "individual" rights problem, let us focus on the US v Cruikshank case in which the Court ruled that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) is a right that does not need any constitution for its existence and pre-dates the Federal Constitution. As such it is a fundament or natural right and is inherent in People's basket of rights that belong to the people and not the State.

The RKBA, whether as a member of the militia or for self-defense, as presented in the Federal and most State Constitutions, does not specify how or where the right can be exercised. Because it is a fundamental right, it must be viewed firstly as unlimited. Yet, most state and Federal courts have determined that the individual RKBA can be limited by what is called the Right of Reasonable Police Power or RRPP. The RKBA is a higher right than RRPP except where the State can show a particularized or proven threat of an individual. The burden is on the State to show it and where there is no particularized threat, the RKBA must prevail – that is the nature of an individual right.

Many courts have found that the RKBA with pistol or rifle can be reasonably restricted from possession or bearing by felons. Courts view this as reasonable because felons (even non-violent ones) have shown that they are a particularized threat by way of past behavior. No higher court has determined that the bearing of an arm by a non-felon, law-abiding citizen can be reasonably restricted without violating Constitutional protections unless there is a particularized threat. This is the issue currently before the Federal 5th Circuit Court in Texas in US v Emerson – did Emerson represent a particularized threat and if not, does the 2nd Amendment protect him?

So too, the bearing of concealed arms is protected as an individual right, unless the state can show a particularized finding of a threat by a person. The Constitution does not tell how one can or cannot bear an arm. It does not say that bearing of concealed arms is not protected. The RKBA means the bearing of arms commonly used for the defense of self or the state with weapons that are through historic practice commonly used for that purpose, meaning pistols, knives, and rifles (see State v Kessler (OR) and People v Brown (MI)).

Only in the case of felons (and now those convicted of misdemeanor domestic violence) have the courts deemed it appropriate to prevent a person from bearing of a pistol or rifle – concealed or otherwise.

The License
Most states have enacted concealed carry licensing laws. They first take away the full-time right to carry a concealed weapon by making it illegal (felony or misdemeanor) to carry a concealed weapon (including an open weapon in a vehicle) without a license. The license is the state's reasonable way to assure itself that the person who bears a concealed weapon is a "proper person" or non-threatening person. A proper person is simply one who has no history of violent or behavior that would show them to HAVE BEEN a threat. For a licensing procedure to deny licenses to bear concealed arms for those who might be a threat but have no history of felonious or mental disorders, is tantamount to treating them like felons based on the mere belief or mistrust that someone will misuse a weapon before they have misused a weapon – this is denying one a fundamental right without cause or merit. It is unreasonable.

The license is to keep one "arrest free" for the mere bearing or possession of a concealed weapon (pistol in most cases) carried for the purpose of the militia or self-defense of oneself or the state. It is not a license to use a weapon as we all have that right -- if it is for self-defense – even felons. It is just the right to bear it without interference by the authorities.

The concealed weapons license procedure is the State's way of ensuring that only persons with no mental or violent past (that can be shown or proven) get a license to bear a concealed weapon. The process of getting a concealed weapons license is a reasonable exercise of police power by the state to ensure that violent or unstable persons (with a record to prove it) can bear a concealed weapon. If the State cannot show this particularized finding of a person being a threat, they must grant a license – to do otherwise is to presume that one will misuse the right to keep and bear arms with no substantiation other than the bias of the license granting authority.

Unrestricted v Restricted Licenses
When a State gun licensing authority practices granting unrestricted licenses to just law-enforcement officers and only restricted or no licenses to other citizens, it is practicing prohibition (part or full-time) or oppression of a fundamental right. The reasonable use of police power is in the finding of a particularized or historical evidence of a threat that warrants denial of a fundamental right. Where the State cannot find the threat, it cannot deny the license or practice restricted licensing. The practice of restricted license by place or time is the same as saying that one is a threat at certain times or places. As the State is neither responsible if it fail to protect a citizen nor can they predict when a citizen will need protecting, any partial restriction -- in time or place -- of a concealed weapons license is the same as a part-time prohibition of a fundamental right. The practice of prohibiting or unreasonably restricting ordinary citizens’ licenses is an abuse of discretion by a concealed weapon licensing authority.

DISCRETION
Where concealed weapons licensing laws grant discretion to licensing authorities by way of vague statements, the State must take extra judicial and legislative oversight over the authorities by ensuring that any discretion is limited to the determination of particularized finding of threat. Any discretion used to create local rules in ultra vires or in excess of their investigatory authority in which they create additional rules restricting licenses by citizen class or by geographic region or by type of profession or by "need" for a license are practices of prohibiting (partially or full-time) the fundamental RKBA.

Any act or rule that does not focus on determining a past finding of a threat is simply beyond the discretionary authority inherent in the RRPP as it reasonably regulates the RKBA. Where there is no finding of a particularized threat, there is no longer any discretionary authority to a licensing body.

The common practice in states that have "good reason" or "proper person" or "other proper reason" criteria in their laws simply are standardless criteria that grant unfettered discretion to licensing authorities that time and time again results in abuse by discretionary authority. These are vague standards that allow licensing tribunals to inject bias (and where an authority is only law enforcement persons, this bias can be extreme bias).

Bias of a concealed weapons licensing tribunal fails to pass due process muster. Where a tribunal shows bias in granting only restricted licenses or not in granting any license to the "people" it violates a persons federal and state Civil Rights because it uses the color of law to deny a constitutionally protected right to due process, possibly equal protection, and to the RKBA.

THE RIGHT TO CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT
In conclusion, the RKBCW (the right to keep and bear a concealed weapon) is an individual right that is part of the greater RKBA. The only reasonable limitation of the state is to ensure that persons who can exercise that fundamental right are persons who have not show by way of past criminal or mental disorders that they are a threat. Any further limitation by the state, either by a practice of granting restricted licenses to persons who are not a particularized threat and whose reasons are for full-time self-defense, is a prohibition (part or full-time) of the RKBA and contravenes the essential nature of a constitutional individual right. That is not to say that a licensing tribunal cannot grant restricted licenses to those who request a restriction but they cannot grant restricted licenses to those who meet all non-ambiguous criteria and whose reason is self-defense. The practice of determining license class (restricted or general) based on who needs defending is not within the scope of a tribunal whose sole purpose is to determine past history. Suitability must be presumed until abuse of the RKBA is shown.

It is easy to see now how misleading the phrase, "there is no right to bear a concealed weapon" really is. The RKBA is only limited by reasonable police power. Reasonable means filtering those persons who are a particularized threat. Any further discretion or restrictions are prohibitions of a fundamental right and become a Civil Right violation when licensing tribunals exceed their discretion. There is a right to keep and bear concealed arms. It must be vigorously protected by the legislature and the courts.


SteveH


Black Blade (9/18/2000; 5:54:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 36875)
***********"CONTEST #1"************

If I, a USAGOLD "poster", were to name the one specific development or event that would break gold out of this price range, it would be higher energy prices. Why? My thoughts are that as the effects of higher energy costs are felt through the economies of the world, the ripple effects will build up into a massive tidal wave of inflation, worry and despair. The peoples of the world will look for safe haven and defensive investments. Gold has always been safe harbour in the past, and will be so again. We are only beginning to see the first ripples appear with higher petroleum prices, higher utilities rates, lower earnings on Wall Street attributed to higher energy costs, and public discontent as demonstrated by the recent protests in Europe. The forces that currently cap the POG, are slowly but surely going to lose their grip. Higher energy prices have always preceded each postwar recession, it will be no different this time. Gold will surely shine as the mass of humanity seek safe harbour from the coming economic storms.





ORO (9/18/2000; 5:53:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 36874)
Sharefin - THC -"gold bond"
The basis of the concept is that the bonds held in tandem with a futures contract till maturity make the bond into a gold bond. This makes the holder of dollars into a buyer of bonds and the payoff into a gold payoff. The buyer's dollars are absorbed into bonds, and the interest payout is absorbed into the margin account at the holder's futures account as contango falls with approach of expiration.

For a custodial central bank holding of a well connected foreigner, the dollars used to buy bonds are absorbed by the Fed, who will hold the bonds in the central bank's account.

In this way, the gold obligation is that of the international banks (and erroneously considered "good" relative to US gold obligations) and the dollar obligation is "good" because it is that of the dollar's printer.

One should remember that the constituency of the central banks is their bank brethren. Those to whom the banks are beholden are also those to which the central banks will cater. Those to whom the central bank's chartering government is beholden, are also those to whom the banks will cater. Thus gold obligations of the global banking system of the Bretton Woods period were rightfully seen by the US as an obligation of all central banks to redeem currency in gold. Why the US should be the only one to do so when the bulk of dollars are not traded with the US but among the foreign nations was lost on Nixon and company, as it was on the Milton Friedman crew who suggested that the causality of value was from dollar to gold rather than the other way 'round, thus ignoring history and the teachings of Von Mises.

The Chicago school was deeply in the view that banking demand (for debt payment) provides currency with value. That such demand was dependent on past supply and the prospect of future supply, creating a circular dynamic that maintained solvency only while credit volume grew was lost on them. The value of the currency was provided by its hook to gold at a fixed parity. The currency itself, however, had no value despite the demand for debt payment. In fact, in order to maintain solvency in the system, the currency had to be on a decline trend in value relative to gold in order for the system to retain solvency.





Black Blade (9/18/2000; 5:38:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 36873)
"Morning Wakeup Call!" - just Passing Through This Morning - Gone Fishing!
Sources: Various
THE EASTERN FRONT:

Asia Precious Metals Review: Spot gold quiet ahead of auction By Polly Yam, BridgeNews Hong Kong--Sept. 18--Spot gold continued to move within a narrow band of U.S. $272-273 in Asia on Monday in extremely sluggish trading, as players were reluctant to take fresh positions ahead of Tuesday's 25-tonne gold reserves auction by the Bank of England, dealers said. They said dealers were divided regarding gold's price movement after the auction, discouraging players from opening positions. The price of silver, platinum and palladium hardly moved during the Asian trading. "Players were waiting (for Tuesday's gold auction)," a Hong Kong-based dealer said. He said players didn't want to be long or short, as gold's next movement was unclear. Some Hong Kong dealers see the sale price of the auction below $272 per ounce, while others expect the sale price above $273. Japanese dealers and analysts expect the sales price of the auction to range at $271-$273 given strong U.S. dollar against major currencies. Gold price could rise on short-covering if the sale price of the auction is above $273, some dealers said. Spot platinum and palladium eased in sluggish trading, dealers noted. On the Tokyo Commodity Exchange (TOCOM), platinum futures were mixed in boxed movement despite the news of the possible strike in South African major platinum producer Anglo American Platinum Corp. Ltd.(AMPLATS), TOCOM dealers said. The strike, if it will be proceeded, isn't expected to last long given the fact that the gap between AMPLATS and its workers on pay increases is small, the dealers told. TOCOM palladium futures fell sharply in thin trade, they noted. The relatively stronger yen against U.S. dollar triggered TOCOM players to buy gold futures Monday, TOCOM dealers said. But trading of TOCOM gold futures was thin prior to Tuesday's scheduled gold auction by the Bank of England, the dealers said.

Black Blade: Tomorrow is the BOE gold-give-away. Expect the auction not to be heavily oversubscribed as the major players are content to sit this one out. So don't expect a lot of activity in the gold pits today. Also in London town, Captain Tony looks like he's ready to down with the ship (SS Britannia) as the fall-out over high oil prices continues.

INDIA’S UTI TO TRY TO LURE WOMEN WITH GOLD.
—Aradhna Dayal
India's leading mutual fund company is looking to attract female investors with a fund offering income distributions around the festival of the investor's choice, and redemptions in gold. Unit Trust of India is aiming the fund at both working and non-working women in India—who are the main festival-celebrators and consider gold as personal wealth. The Millennium Grihalakshmi Unit Plan is likely to have huge consumer appeal, and be a path-breaking venture for the Indian fund market, say fund managers. Growing economic independence has created a cash surplus as huge as INR40 billion (US$875 million) amongst the working Indian female population, said SK Dasgupta, chief general manager-marketing at UTI in Mumbai.
Besides resident and non-resident Indian females investing into it themselves or on behalf of another woman, men can buy the scheme as a gift for their wives, daughter or mothers. Keeping an investment option for men is necessary, as despite office-going women increasingly making their financial decisions themselves, men still control the purse strings and make up the primary investor base in India, said Dasgupta. Rival fund marketers said they are increasingly seeing calls for more female-targeted products from their brokers and agents, and the Grihalakshmi fund, if successful, could trigger a spate of such products in India. Others such as Pitambar Chowdhary, senior v.p.-marketing at SBI Funds Management, were more keptical. "The question is whether there are any specific investment needs [of women] that are different from other investors or from existing investment vehicles, and our feedback has not yet revealed that." Grihalakshmi will invest in fixed-income instruments, and has a minimum investment of INR5,000 (US$109). The fee structure has not been firmed up yet. Besides regular returns, Grihalakshmi investors can go for a Festival Cash Option, whereby they get an annual lump sum close to the time of a festival chosen by them. "This way, they [women investors] can have the returns just before, say, Diwali or Christmas, to spend it the way they like. It'll be ‘their’ money," noted Dasgupta. Diwali is the Hindu festival aimed to usher in wealth and prosperity in the household. Gold redemptions, however, are going to be trickier. It will go against the cultural grain of buying gold through family jewelers in India, and unless UTI can offer it at prices lower than the market rate, it may not find many takers, say fund managers. Dasgupta said no details on the gold redemption option have been firmed up yet, with the scheme still being in the proposal stage, and UTI needing several approvals from the Reserve Bank of India and the Indian government before it can implement the same. UTI will market the fund through its 107 branches and offices and 75,000 agents in India, and potentially through roadshows abroad. The country's largest fund house, UTI has INR720 billion in assets under management.


Black Blade: When trolling for babes, what better bait than gold! Actually the idea of redemptions in gold is a good idea. There have been calls by some who hold shares of gold stock that they would like their dividends paid in gold.

THE AFRICAN FRONT:

BBC MONITORING INTERNATIONAL REPORTS: ZIMBABWE FACES "TOTAL ECONOMIC COLLAPSE" SAYS MAJOR INVESTOR
BBC Monitoring Service - United Kingdom, Sep 16, 2000,
Zimbabwe's single largest foreign investor, Anglo American, has warned that the country faces total economic collapse unless decisive steps are taken to reverse the slide, a South African newspaper reported on Saturday.
'Saturday Business Report' said it was the first time an Anglo American executive in Zimbabwe had made such a critical statement in public. Philip Baum, the chief executive of Anglo Zimbabwe, told a meeting of the Confederation of Zimbabwe Industries that uncertainty over security of tenure owing to illegal farm invasions, the breakdown in the rule of law, government mismanagement and collapsing infrastructure were the main reasons for the collapse. He said the mining sector was particularly badly affected by the government's economic mismanagement. He warned that 90 per cent of gold mines were at risk of closure. Seven major gold mines have already shut down in Zimbabwe.

Black Blade: Nutcase Mugabe was in New York last week and was served with papers in a lawsuit filed by representatives of those persecuted by the Mugabe regime. It would appear that there could be a bit less gold coming to market.

AngloGold expects 'unenthusiastic' response to UK gold auction

NEW YORK — The forthcoming Bank of England gold auction is likely to receive an "unenthusiastic" response from the marketplace, similar to the market's lacklustre response to the July gold sale, AngloGold marketing executive director Kelvin Williams said. The SA gold producer itself will not take part in the auction on Tuesday, he said. Echoing the sentiment of many other gold market industry players, Williams described the auction format as an anomaly and a disruptive force in a liquid, traded market. The auction method elicited a lukewarm response at the July 12 auction, when the bank sold 803 600 ounces. The UK treasury auctioned gold at $279,75 an ounce, about $3 under the London AM fix of that day. The auction also attracted less interest than previous auctions and was only 1,3 times oversubscribed. "I suspect the London market will be as unenthusiastic (at the upcoming auction), but that remains to be seen," Williams said. The UK treasury announced on May 7 that it is to sell about 125 tons of gold in a programme of five 25-tonne auctions during the year in July, September, November, January and March. It plans to sell a total of 415 tons, reducing its reserve to 300 tons.— BridgeNews.

Black Blade: DITTO!

AngloGold goes for a strut on US catwalk

Designers incorporate gold in garments
FOUR young African designers who showed their clothes at New York Fashion Week at the weekend incorporated gold wire, beads, mesh and chains into the clothing, taking AngloGold's efforts to promote its product a step further. The designers were the winners of M-Net's African Design contest, which was co-sponsored by AngloGold on condition it was used as a vehicle for gold jewellery and accessories. AngloGold has previously cosponsored M-Net's Face of Africa modelling contest and has festooned models with spectacular gold jewellery at fashion shows in SA and abroad. But the New York Fashion Week designs incorporated gold into garments for the first time. AngloGold also provided gold jewellery for the models to wear. New York Fashion Week, the US's leading annual fashion event, attracts fashion and accessory media, clothing buyers and designers, retailers and distributors. AngloGold spent about R1m on the designer collection and gold products for the event. It drew on the SA gold jewellery manufacturing industry, especially its new relationship with Ora Africa, the gold chain manufacturer in which AngloGold bought a 25% stake. AngloGold marketing director Kelvin Williams said the group's participation in the New York event gave it the opportunity to put gold products "right there among the leading fashion trendsetters". The group wants to reposition gold as a desirable lifestyle statement, not just the ordinary, more conservative product stocked by jewellery retailers. "We want to position gold as new, different and outrageous to encourage the fashion industry to think about what it can do with the metal," Williams said. He said the designs had achieved considerable coverage for gold in magazines such as Vogue and Harpers and had elicited positive comment from fashion commentators. Gold jewellery accounts for 80% of annual demand for gold worldwide. AngloGold has been on a campaign to promote demand for the metal in the past couple of years. In addition to its fashion activities and investment in jewellery manufacturing, the group is launching an e-commerce initiative, Gold Avenue. Williams said gold producers had not done enough to sustain demand for the metal and ensure it did not go out of fashion. In an environment where consumer product manufacturers spend hundreds of millions of dollars to promote their products, gold producers have to find strategic ways of leveraging limited marketing spending to position their product. AngloGold spent $15m last year on marketing, with two thirds of this going to the World Gold Council, the industry body which lobbies governments and central banks but is supported by producers accounting for slightly less than 30% of the world's gold output.
AngloGold has raised its marketing budget this year and about half of its spending will go on its own marketing initiatives.

Black Blade: Huh? What? That's Marvy Baby! Well looks like platinum jewelry has really gained a lot of acceptance so why not push hard on gold too. Somehow I just can't picture AngloGold CEO Bobby Godsell rubbing elbows with this crowd.

Meanwhile, looks like the Kiwi and Aussie pesos got thoroughly crushed and may head lower. This makes gold sales from OZ a bit more likely, but then, the gold medals at the Olympics are only gold plated fakes. The Brit Slider is about to go under $1.40 as we head into BOE gold-give-away time and oil taxes take their toll. At least the Euro is holding up a bit and actually gaining slightly on the USD. Asian and European markets are all in the red. Looks like mayhem on could be the name of the game on Wall Street as overnight equities trading is all bearish and S&P Futures are down –2.20, Fair Value down –4.44. Petroleum is mixed with NG down modestly -$0.12 at $5.08 Mbtu, as the tropical storm "Gordon" in the Gulf of Mexico had little effect on operations. Brent North Sea is up slightly +$0.05 at $34.01/bbl, Light Sweet Crude is up +$0.03 at $35.95/bbl and skirting the $36.00/bbl resistance level. Everyone awaits the opening of trade in New York to determine a sense of direction. However, heating oil is likely to come under heavy pressure as fall and winter season approaches. The Big-Picture view is that refinery capacity is extremely tight and any additional oil will have to find a home until someone can deal with it. Hurricane season is just getting under way so who knows how things will play out. Au is up +$0.50, Ag is unchanged, Pt is dinged for a buck, and Pd is hammered down -$18.00.



WAC (Wide Awake Club) (9/18/2000; 5:26:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 36872)
The Downfall of Optical America
http://www.yowusa.com/Archive/September2000/18SEP00a/18sep00a.html
This is an interesting article by Marshall Masters. Worth a read. Check out the link.


Our world economies are reeling as oil prices continue to skyrocket as tensions in the Middle East, the primary source of the world's oil, continue to mount. Those who tell us that our world economy possesses the inherent strength to cope with another oil crisis and the resulting wars are playing an optical game designed to mask the real facts that lie just below the veneer. Should the current tensions between Iraq and Kuwait or those between the PLO and Israel spill over into war, our optical civilization will fall like a house of cards and if the unthinkable really does happen, what will happen to us - the little people?

The Not So Obvious Signs
When we go the filling station, the prices tell us that there is a new economic trend and something is happening. We've had problems like this in the past, and we later came to learn that they had usually resulted from a false crisis engineered for political and monetary gain. But this time is different, because the shortage of oil boils down to the pure economic equation of supply and demand. On a worldwide basis, the production of oil is higher than it has ever been for the last twenty years and yet this supply simply isn't enough to supply the energy demands of a world with more than 6 billion souls and counting.

.....We all know what our house of cards looks like from the outside, but what does it look like from the inside? When we look at it from that perspective, we can see the weakest points and surmise what will happen should a sufficient number of those of those weak points fail. These failure points are often subtle and so we must look at them with an unfiltered mind that is open to alternate realities besides those we've come to expect.

For example, if you live in a newer neighborhood walk around a bit, and take note of the many cul-de-sacs. If civil order breaks down, and the government needs to land helicopters in your neighborhood, the cul-de-sac is an ideal landing zone. This because the dimensions of cul-de-sac a helicopter landing pad make it a perfect landing zone for a UH-60 Black Hawk to touch down. The obvious reason is of course a humanitarian one, such as airlifting accident victims.

However, the very same cul-de-sacs could also be used air mobile Justice Department SWAT teams or U.N. Peacekeepers to collect law-abiding citizens who happen to fit an arbitrary "enemy of the state" profile for transport to a Federal interment camp. This couldn't happen -- right?





Chris Powell (9/18/2000; 0:01:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 36871)
Snakes writing before the gold earthquake
http://www.egroups.com/message/gata/537
Reg Howe analyzes the strange events of
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happening in the markets.

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