Centennial Precious Metals, Inc: Serving Gold Coin & Bullion Investors Since 1973
(Home Page)	(How to Buy Gold)	(Gold Coin Images)	(Daily Market Report)	(Live Gold Price)
(First-time Buyers)	(News & Views)	(ABCs of Gold Book)	(Gold IRA)	(Buy Gold Coins Online)
(European Clientele)	Online Information Packet			(About Us)

Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...

The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/18/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Journeyman (11/18/00; 23:58:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41733)
Radical treason @Goldfly msg#: 41731

Hey Goldfly!!!!

Watch posting that kind of radical rabble rousing propaganda stuff here will ya. It violates my tender sensibilities!
This here's America. We can't have people just going around doing what they want! (Had a cop tell me exactly this once.)

What ya want -- get tried for treason??

Regards, j.


tedw (11/18/00; 23:36:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41732)
Grave times in the republic
http://www.usagold.com

A media who uses MIND CONTROL to convince millions of Americans that an election that was won is not over, coupled with a left-wing political party attempting to overthrow the elected Government of the United States by voter fraud and biased left-wing Justices.

In the event, that Bush does not take office, I,for one, will consider the new President illegitmate. And we will all be completely justified in not paying our taxes to a government that has taken by power by stealing an election.

These are grave times for the Republic.

Goldfly (11/18/00; 23:36:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41731)
We hold these truths to be self-evident
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

ORO (11/18/00; 23:31:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41730)
Camel - shortage are result of government action
The expected shortages in oil are a result of a lack of investment in this area in the last 15 years. The lack of investment is a result of government policies that are substantially those of Democrats and the result of the government dictated monetary system imposed by FDR himself. This monetary system is the primary culprit in the economic disaster approaching. It is one that the US government imposed on us, the people, and forced on the world as a whole.

Ronnie, though not my hero by any stretch of the imagination, did a couple of things right. Where he could reach consensus, he had regulations removed. Where he could not, he managed to reduce funding sufficiently so that regulation was minimal because of a lack of regulators. Where opposition to deregulation and to weakening of it was not too great, or where momentum in expansion was too heavy, he managed to slow things down some. The same regulatory structure that was put together by Democrats is exactly the cause of the current mild energy crisis and a contributor to the upcoming general economic crisis.

The regulatory agencies have taken a long while to recuperate from the Regan cuts, but have managed to widen their authority and the resources at their disposal (i.e. their cost). They are now far enough advanced that a slight additional loading of the regulatory burden will cause whole industries to close down and disappear.

The main reason we have had no substantial new electric production, why no new coal derived energy is available, why there is only one coke plant in the US, why there have been no more refineries built since the early 80s, and why natural gas demand is so high - is government - Federal government, pursuing Gore's political agenda. And at the State level where "not in my back yard" was the "will of the people" - to which their representatives and government regulators responded.

Government decision making is damaging in nearly all instances, it is particularly so when it is in industrial and economic matters. The main reason is that regulation prevents independent judgment, replacing it with prescribed and proscribed actions. Thus resources are wasted not because of bad judgment, but because of a complete lack of judgment. Where discretion is left in the hands of the regulator, the regulator will "sell" the decision in his own interests, or pursue it according to his own ideological agenda. In both cases, the economic outcome is not a concern of the government decision maker, and his effect is that of a millstone on a swimmer.




ThaiGold (11/18/00; 23:14:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 41729)
A Salute to Our Military
http://www.rense.com/general5/dropdead.htm
[snip]
In some counties, half or nearly all the ballots were
rejected, many of them military ballots that apparently
didn't have postmarks.
 
From the U.S. Code:
 
TITLE 39 - POSTAL SERVICE PART IV - MAIL
MATTER CHAPTER 34 - ARMED FORCES AND
FREE POSTAGE Sec. 3406. Balloting materials under
the Uniformed and Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting
Act
 
(a) Balloting materials under the Uniformed and
Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting Act (individually or
in bulk) - (1) shall be carried expeditiously and free of
postage; [=== hence, often no postmarks]
 
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL
PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES
 
CHAPTER 29 - ELECTIONS AND POLITICAL
ACTIVITIES Sec. 608. Absent uniformed services
voters and overseas voters
 
(a) Whoever knowingly deprives or attempts to deprive
any person of a right under the Uniformed and
Overseas Citizens Absentee Voting Act shall be fined
in accordance with this title or imprisoned not more
than five years, or both.
 
[unsnip]

My Comment:
===========
As a young US Airman, in 1960, it was my first opportunity
to vote in a Presidential Election.
I was much dismayed, to learn that my one-vote was negated
by numerous dead-voters in Mayor Daley's Chicago DemMachine
precincts.
Some things never change.
And I find this most reprehensible.

ThaiGold


Camel (11/18/00; 21:59:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41728)
Saint Ron
I would like to add one other thing about Saint Ronald. Anyone with a pea for a brain saw all this energy crisis stuff coming thirty years ago. The awareness of it was widespread in the late 60s and early 70s among people in all walks of life including I am sure many on this forum. This awareness was put into public policy during the Carter administration in the form of progressive fuel efficiency and alternative energy programs, all of which were dismantled during the Reagan Administration. Hardly anything better illustrates the ignorance and spitefulness of this man. Now according to many on this forum we are on the verge of a catastophioc meltdown of our financial and economic system due in large part to the projected shortages of oil that will occur in this decade.Must we suffer more of this kind of incompetence.

elevator guy (11/18/00; 21:00:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41727)
Correction
Its been years since I heard about this stuff, so its slightly fuzzy.

Gun was in Vince Foster's right hand, but he was left handed, a fact that his executioners were not aware of.

Mr Gresham (11/18/00; 20:53:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41726)
Probability
http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/recount/
Here's a dissertation on how likely the Florida (and other) results were to be so close, with coin flips of N "voters" determining each race.

"By this analysis, it would not be at all remarkable if this voting method gave one candidate a lead of 1784 votes (Bush's lead over Gore in Florida on Nov. 8). But it would be remarkable for these random coin tosses to keep the odds to within 300 votes -- the odds against this are about ten to one.

"For those who want to know: the vote spread after N tosses will be an even integer L; the probability that a particular integer L results is C(N,(N+L)/2)/2^N, suitably adjusted for odd N. This can be estimated as being about sqrt(2/Pi/N) exp(-L^2/2/N). "



Farfel (11/18/00; 20:43:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41725)
(No Subject)
@PH in LA...responses to your rhetorical questions

Which side was it that brayed so loudly
about keeping the present election process out of the courts while at the same time running straight to federal court
seeking an injunction against continuing hand counting? A request so absurd and obviously self-seeking that it was
denied twice?

<<< What choice did the Republicans have? The Democrats, bought, paid, and owned by the trial attorneys of America, are racing to the Democrat-influenced courts on every single electoral issue. The Repulicans don't stand a chance, the high courts in this land are all owned by the Democrats >>>>>

Which candidate moaned about "fuzzy math" when it was his own figures that didn't add up? When the
only thing fuzzy was that candidate's own understanding of mathematical concepts?

<<<< Which party keeps crowing about a non-existent budget surplus, comprised of funds BORROWED from the Social Security adminstration? Which party does NOT want SS funds invested in the stock market (because in reality they are no longer available to be invested, now comprising the so-called budget surplus?) Answer: Democrats >>>>>

Which candidate signed legislation in
Texas in 97 that provided for hand counts in close elections while presently whining about how unfair and politically
biased they are?

<<<< Hand counts for the ENTIRE state of Florida would be acceptable, but the Democrats only want hand counts in Democrat districts. How fair is that?

Furthermore, the Democrat-biased TV networks influenced the Florida election result in favor of Democrats by releasing early results showing a Democrat victory, thus discouraging tens of thousands of Republicans from voting in the panhandle of Florida. Just imagine how many thousands of Republicans decided to head straight home from work after Dan Rather and his ilk proclaimed a Democrat victory ONE whole hour before polls closed in the panhandle? >>>>

Which candidate spent months on the campaign trail braying and crowing about "compationate
conservativism" after he himself as govenor had reduced his final review of death penalty cases from his predecessor's
thirty minutes to fifteen minutes? Who brags that he has never commuted a single condemned man's (or woman's)
sentence and never will? What's "compationate" about that?

<<< What's compassionate about telling murder victims' families that the killers have been set free on solely legal technicalities created by the plethora of trial attorneys who dominate today's Democrat Party? Since when does compassion for killers now outweigh compassion for victims families? Democrats are more concerned about perpetrators' rights than victims' rights. Is it any wonder that 95% of blacks support the Democrats, given that blacks commit the majority of violent crimes in America? >>>>>>>>>>>>>

The list of examples of this kind of rhetoric (and thought processes) could go on forever. It has been the main
stock-in-trade of the Bush family since George Herbert Walker (Mr. Out-Of-The-Loop, Ex-CIA Chief) Bush was so
(thankfully) briefly president. There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that his son will behave any differently. In fact,
he has already embraced this concept by selecting flunkies from his father's ranks such as James Baker and Cheney to
continue to do so.

<<<< Yes, I much prefer the Clinton flunkies like Warren Christopher, a man so patently senile and scatterbrained that it is almost like watching a Saturday Night live comedy skit to see him in action.

It is so much more impressive to see Gore choose Lieberman as his flunkie, a hypocrite who professes to be an Orthodox Jew, yet supports the Democrat agenda of promoting a gay lifestyle in America plus abortion on demand. So it is quite obvious he picks and chooses his "orthodoxy" as he sees fit. Of course, Gore likely selected Lieberman in a cynical maneuver to get the Jewish vote in New York and assist Hillary in her bid for the Senate.>>>>>>


No, you would be better advised to look into your heart and ask whether the solution you offer to the Democrats'
transgressions is not actually worse than the disease.

<<< The disease is EIGHT years of Clintonism and it is time to remove ALL Clintonites from the presidential office before the contagion destroys the country >>>>>>>>

This will likely be a process that you will find much harder to endure than I do... After all, I never had my own picture taken with President Clinton, or any other president.

<<<<< I've had my picture taken with Clinton, Hillary, Gore, Senator Bryan, Senator Reid, Governor Miller, etc., etc. I had my wife take them off our walls years ago, hide all the pictures in a drawer, far out of sight of our company. I have had a lot of contact with Democrats over the years and have no illusions as to who they are today >>>>>>>>

But certainly, if George Jr. does manage to slink his way into the oval office without counting votes in Florida that were hand counted at the legally-sanctioned request of the very counties where those ballots were cast, you may rest assured that for many people in this country, as well as around the world, he will never be anything more than just another "Wannabe President of the United States of America".

<<<<< And if Gore uses his gang of Democrat attorneys to gain the presidency, in the same sleazy manner that his impeached partner in crime utilized pornographers like Larry Flynt et al to retain the Presidency, then for many people, Gore will never be anything more than another Clintonite who did whatever was necessary to gain the Presidency of the United States. >>>>>>

When you think about it, guys like this are a dime-a-dozen, just like
ambitious little rich guys with George Jr.'s pathetic qualifications.

<<<< What's wrong with being an ambitious rich guy? I thought the main candidates from both parties are ambitious rich guys? Didn't Al Gore arrive in this world with a silver spoon in his mouth? Wasn't Al Gore the son of a prominent wealthy politician? Who the hell are you kidding? Spare me your fake populism.

As for pathetic qualifications, it seems to me a certain governor from Arkansas was voted President of the United States WITHOUT any foreign affairs experience whatsoever? Is that why his administration enabled Wall Street to conduct so many currency raids against various global regions and destroyed so many foreign economies? Is that why his administration aided and abetted the destruction of key global commodities (like gold) and hobbled so many commodity-dependent Third World nations. Because he had no clue that great American Presidents are not simply concerned with domestic economic issues, they are also concerned with raising the economic welfare of the ENTIRE free world? >>>>>>

At the same time, "the republican party definitely does NOT stand for the little guy or blacks or jews or rednecks or
techies or lesbians or whomever, they only stand for power at any cost."

The know it.

They admit it.

The brag about it.

Do you agree with them now, to support them even as you lamment the democrats' unspoken embrace of their same own
avowed philosophy?

Is your own philosophical inconsistency so complete as to embrace the same avowed republican philosophy that you
eloquently condemn in the Clintonites?

<<<< As I stated in previous posts, both Parties are insufferable and repellent in many respects, and a third party is absolutely imperative in this country, ideally led by some compelling individual who is an amalgam of Nader, Ventura, Trump and Perot...their best qualities, NOT the worst.

Again, I am not in love with Republicans nor Democrats, but I feel the country needs to swing to the right (NOT too far right, mind you), away from the past several years of politically correct liberal fascism.

Again, I will restate that support of Clintonism is distinctly different than support of true Democrats. Unfortunately, the Democrat party has been entirely corrupted by Clintonism and your opacity with respect to the transmogrification of your beloved Democrat party is pathetic. I find it impossible to respect your point of view, it is both so tendentious and deluded as to be incomprehensible. Maybe you have an uncle, some influential Democrat who slips you a fat check every month...or are you the personal recipient of some kind of Democratic pork program? I just do NOT understand your unyielding embrace of Clintonites, especially since you also claim to be a gold investor. Which Americans do you think led the charge for IMF gold sales? Rubin, Gore, and Clinton, that's who!
Which party would likely impose environmental restraints upon the domestic mining companies so strict that most would be compelled to shut down? Answer: Democrats.

Now I am also NOT in love with gold mining companies, and I believe they should be held to higher environmental standards...but if the intent of the Democrats is to turn gold into rubbish, and close down all the domestic gold mining companies (except Barrick), then they should have stated as much very clearly years ago, such that gold investors like myself could have made our hasty exits WITHOUT suffering huge losses as a consequence of the stealth war against gold conducted by the Democrats.>>>>>

Thanks

F*

Cavan Man (11/18/00; 20:03:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 41724)
Canuck
That's exactly what my wife says.

Canuck (11/18/00; 19:50:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 41723)
US election
Hope everyone listened to the governor of Montana today, was on CNN at about 2:00pm eastern.

The man, with honesty beaming from his eyes, explained the corrupt magnitute of the manual recount.

Al Gore, the Democrats and the Clinton administration, IMHO, are hiding something. Something is very grave, the Democrats are not allowing the Republicans to take office.

elevator guy (11/18/00; 19:36:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41722)
Before we kiss and make up with the demmies....
There are 30 very suspiciously dead people in Clintons past, including Vince Foster, lets stop and look at that for a minute.

right handed, gun found in left hand.

Dried blood found dripping DOWN face, yet body found with feet elevated. Body dumped there after the execution.

Was due for testimony on Clinton scandals within a few days.

Hillary searched his office for something at 4pm, body found by park service at 6pm. How did she know it was safe to probe around?

Park service declared it a suicide, in a mad rush to judgement, totally ignoring the facts.

A new FBI director was appointed by Clinton, either the day before, or the day after, or very close to the execution. The new director refused to investigate this, and left it in the hands of the super competent park service, who has years of experience investigating these things, and lots of resources. (Yeah right!)

Guns are not found in the hands of suicides, but this gun was.

No fingerprints on the gun, not even Vince Foster's. (Gun was wiped clean)

No dirt on his shoes, even though he was in a wooded area. Just carpet fibers. (Body was carried and dropped there)

When the CIA does a hit, autopsy results are inconclusive.

But when the thugs from Arkansas do a hit, it looks like a pack of children.

Republicans are no better.

AG runs the country.


Cavan Man (11/18/00; 19:23:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41721)
PH (aka Sir "Brave Fish")
You forgot to mention the monthly tally of innocent Iraqi children. How could you be so callous?

I see your point. If I am way beyond politics and caring about same then, I shouldn't have made the comment I did. Well, I stand before you subdued. At the core, my real problem is with the culture (or lack of) in this country. My real problem is that I am increasingly quite sad when I reflect upon the rapid devolution of morals, ethics and values in this country. You see, I am a keen student of history; perhaps too much so. I keep comparing days of yesteryear with contemporary American society. Sorry, I am a genuine throwback and really was listening to Kate Smith. I see the error of my ways. I was using Mr. Clinton's presidency as an icon for my dissatisfaction. I believe that is called "displaced aggression" or something of the sort. In my mind, I am fighting a losing battle and will suffer you no more with this monologue. Nice jousting with you; I am leaving the field.....DQ

Mr Gresham (11/18/00; 18:49:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 41720)
You guys!
Boy, you guys sure get worked up over something you weren't very excited about a couple of weeks ago.

Just the fact that it was statistically so close has gotten everybody else very emotionally overwrought. "Victory is within our grasp!" is the cry of the day.

Our knights of table round have longer views and larger hearts than the paltry contests before us today. Ooops, gotta go...

PH in LA (11/18/00; 18:37:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41719)
(No Subject)
C-Man:

Any Jedi knight who calls genocide and treason "foibles" while focusing on right and wrong; and calls someone who commited crimes against humanity and later "couldn't remember" anything about it, a "good and decent man" has a serious credibility problem when he tries to talk about "the single most corrupt administraion in the entire history of he US Presidency".

But you don't have to take my word about it. Just thinking about it ought to clarify things.

PS. Although you seem ready to take my bait, I certainly am not trying to aim my remarks at you personally. Hope you have a nice weekend!


auspec (11/18/00; 18:33:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41718)
PH in LA
I don't plan on adding but a few comments to the ongoing war of philosophies and political allegiances. For the most part we each end up selecting our favorite recepients of current crony capitalism. Little changes and not much meeting of the minds. What would be the expected result of putting Shawn Hannity and Alan Derschowitz together for a few hours? We are worlds apart, my friend, even though we obviously must share some deeply held beliefs to be meeting in this locale.
With this election issue, on this site, you are a "fish out of water" by your own choice. Obviously an independent, persistent, and brave fish at that. I commend you. On the other hand, I have deeply held convictions that make me, also, ashamed of the last "8 years". I feel that you do have a level of respect for that as long as it is not forced down your throat, am I right? Just because I express disdain for a particular "camp" doesn't mean it is being FORCED upon others, merely freedom of expression. You are perfectly free to ignore everything a particular poster puts up, and vice-versa.
I must commend the current US powers that put up these two candidates for our choice. Approx 50% of the voters are compelled to vote for their guy because they can't stomach what the other guy stands for, and the end result to some degree is the status quo. I am not for the status quo but could not vote for a Libertarian Prez because I had to vote against the wooden guy. The same number of people were repulsed by Son of George.
Bottom line? Our country is mega miles down the road of crony capitalism. There is some interweaving of cronies as well as some significant differences, but we are basically picking our favorite interests, or dissing our least favorite ones. None of these guys are worthy of being our crony, by definition an "intimate companion" IMHO, at least not to the point they have yet proven.
A conversation yesterday with an English gentleman has changed my outlook on this election to some degree. The end result will be that we have a President that IS supported by approx 50% of the VOTING {the others get what they deserve} population. That is all that is required by the Constitution and it will be sufficient! Now if we tear down our hallowed halls in the process that's another story. Q? How long can you stay out of water??
auspecfully yours

Cavan Man (11/18/00; 18:30:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41717)
On Topic
Hello Trail Guide
I wish you and your family the very best.

I am curious. How do the "Giants" of this world react to all of the silly business of US politics? Do you endeavor to profit from it?

Thanks....CM

Cavan Man (11/18/00; 18:13:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41716)
No, PH in LA....
your entire message got through to me (Kate Smith singing in background "I wish you love.")

PH: I am no longer political. I have (Jedi-like) transcended politics. My focus is on right and wrong; good and evil as in, "There's a right (not wing) thing to do; just do the right thing!" IF we had leadership at the national level of political office, perhaps I would suffer a trivial political affiliation.

You are right about the Reagan/Bush foibles. I agree. However "wrong" that administration was at the time, Mr. Reagan was a good and decent man and a very good leader IMHO; Bush, a caretaker/professional administrator.

Mr Clinton et al, well, you don't have to be an Athonite Monk to look in his/their eyes and know that something is very, very wrong. I tell you this: when the history of this administration is written by academic historians, it will be recorded as the single most corrupt administraion in the entire histroy of he US Presidency. But, I give Mr. Clinton the benefit of the doubt because, the manner in which he has held office and in fact, reflected upon the Office of the President of the United States is merely a manifestation of the severe degree of moral decay in our culture (which I sincerely lament).

When we all die, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon atheist, agnostic etc (sorry if I've missed anybody) we will stand before the "dread judgement seat" of our Lord and God. That my friend is something to be truly anxious about. Kindest regards.....CM

PH in LA (11/18/00; 17:32:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41715)
(No Subject)
Cavan Man:

I'm glad to see that some of my message got through but sorry to see that much was missed also. You refer to the "last eight years of the "politics of division (I believe that is a Clinton classic)" as if the cause for "the gathering animosity in this country" lies at the feet of Clinton and the democrats.

What I have tried to point out is that the roots lie much deeper that this. The four years prior to the Clinton years served up much worse conditions and corruptions than even Clinton's tenure. And no American citizen should forget that the sorry spectacle of a president hounded politically by years of Whitewater investigations (that in the end failed to come up with anything substantial on the first family, as it was originally intended to do) and an impeachment trial prosecuted to the bitter and useless end by republican leaders themselves guilty of extramarital affairs, who in one case was shown to have even paid for an abortion for the object of his affections, in spite of carrying about a political posture against abortion for years.

Today's polarized electorate is the product of actions on both sides; not just Clinton's "politics of division". Arguing about whose side is worse can lead to some serious differences of opinion. Frankly, I am sick to death of hearing the far right's weak-minded posturing and self-seeking hypocrisy. My commentary is only intended to counterbalance the often rabidly irrational Clinton/Democrat bashing served up here as if it were the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I think that lying about genocide (in Central America) and treason (Iran Contra) are far more serious matters than lying about cigars and sex. I intend to continue to bring up these themes as long as others quip so casually about Clinton and company with an air of invincibility as if uttering uncontestable truths. Those who know me (feel free to ask Farfel) from other conflictive discussions, can testify that I will not be intimidated or frightened into silence (not that I even suspect that you would advocate this.) Nor will I remain silent in the face of self-rightous or self-serving, logically inconsistent points of political view.

Thank you for reading!

wolavka (11/18/00; 16:13:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 41714)
fwiw
y2k2001 are not covered. you will see more problems than y2k 2000. GGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!

Journeyman (11/18/00; 16:08:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41713)
Perception is all, psy-war, and spin @Pandagold, Sierra Madre, ALL
Pandagold msg#: 41686 "Questions and Answers" & Sierra Madre msg#: 41709 "Various thoughts..."

I think you're both right on point. As you suggest, Pandagold, it is largely true, particularly these days, that "it is was is perceived, and not what is, that matters."

That's why the cutting edge of business and particularly government is "spin." And as per the following quote:

"In all my experience, I have never seen such a concerted, coordinated, propaganda campaign as the one being waged against Yugoslavia by the U.S. Government and the establishment. Every government wages psychological warfare, not against the enemy, but against their own people. ... Let's not let the government psychological warriors, with the willing cooperation of it's media cohorts, win this war without opposition." -Saul Halperin, KNPR rebroadcast of L.A. Anti-War Teach-In, 05-31-99, 4:35pm EDT

psy-ops (or psy-war) -- as you suggest Sierra Madre -- is the first line of offense that the would-be hierarchist government masters use against us.

Here are a couple of confessions. First, the need:

"I do feel that the same domestic public opinion will be
needed because this [bombing Serb civilians] will be
difficult, this will be long, this will be painful.
And the degree of the domestic public support will be
decisive to the outcome." -Former Carter Sec. of State
Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, CNN, 24 Mar 1999, ~5:51:30 PM EST

Next one of the methods (a favorite one):

"Well Jim, it is very important in a democracy that you
have the support of the people. One of the reasons why
George Bush had to demonize Saddam Hussein was to get
the support of the people, and Bill Clinton has done
the same thing, Vice President Gore has done the same
thing with respect to Milosevic." -Raymond Tanter, Fmr.
Natl. Security Council Staffer, WATCH IT!, MSNBC, 2 Apr
1999, ~11:56:45 AM EST

But once people know someone for a liar, especially a good and subtle one, they begin to discount all information from that source. Thus, once the term "spin doctor" entered the common lexicon, the liars, ah, spinners, especially the political ones, have put themselves and their successors at an inherent disadvantage. This is similar to my Polish friends who regularly told me they believed the oppostie of what the government told them.

Of course, they still have the advantage of largely controlling the microphone -- and the advantage of the big lie. AND the advantage of a large part of the American population rendered gullible by government schools. Fewer all the time, I think.

It seems to me that ALL battles from now on will essentially be information battles or psy-ops, at least to begin with.

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. Looking forward to lesson 2, Pandagold!!


YGM (11/18/00; 15:38:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 41712)
McAlvany Report......Gore & Presidential Impact
http://www.mcalvany.com/specialreports/oct/elections.html
This scathing report will open many eyes if only read...YGM

Full report in link....

Cavan Man (11/18/00; 15:30:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 41711)
PH in LA
Thanks for illustrating quite vividly the division and the gathering animosity in this country. You see how current events have become emotional kindling? The last eight years of the "politics of division" (I believe that is a Clinton classic) have landed us where we are today. Lets get back to the monetary discussion and leave politics 101 out of the forum. This continuous banter is very distracting. Let us recognize the surreal for what it is and let's deal with it as clear thinking investors. There is not a damn thing any one of us can do but vote and/or run for office. I've voted. I (for reasons similar to Plato's) am not running for office. Government is not on our side--never will be. I know you agree with that viewpoint so why waste keystrokes? As MK would say, "let the discussion continue".

I mean no disrespect and value your viewpoints highly.

YGM (11/18/00; 15:25:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 41710)
Don McAlvany on 'GORE & CHRISTIANITY'
My Apologies for long post.....
This is a snip from a Don McAlvany report recently....It needs to be READ by everyone who thinks BIG ALICE is OK!...
"COMMANDER IN CHIEF MATERIAL"????? You decide.....& my apologies to Mr McAlvany for copying his stuff here w/o url.
Read on.....YGM.
--------------------------------------------------------
Message 23195 of 23253 [ Reply ] [ Forward ] [ View Source ] [ Delete ]




Subject: McAlvany "Report Excerpt"...GORE & CHristianity...


3. AL GORE DISDAINS IGNORNANT CHRISTIANS - Gore blasts those ignorant
Christians who he says "are afraid to open their minds to teachings
first offered outside their own system of belief." He has especially
harsh words to say about fundamentalists and other Christians who
believe wholly in the Bible. According to Al Gore, by refusing to
accept that "the earth is our sacred mother," these Christians have
become a threat to the survival of humanity. They are blights on the
environment. To believe in Bible prophecy is "unforgivable" says
Gore. "Not only is this idea heretical," he writes, "it is an
appalling, self-fulfilling prophecy of doom."

[ED. NOTE: So, if you are a Christian who believes in the prophetic
writings of Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, etc. the would-be President
of the United States says you are "heretical." Will such soon be
classified as "hate speech, hate crimes, or hate thoughts" along with
opposition to abortion and homosexuality? Are we on the threshold of
persecution of Christians who believe in the Bible - including Bible
prophecy, Biblical warnings against homosexuality, baby killing,
etc.?]

4. GORE AND THE TEMPLE OF UNDERSTANDING - During the Christmas
season, The Temple of Understanding in New York City holds no
Christian service. Instead it celebrates the winter solstice. There
is no communion. But goats, horses and other animals are led to the
altar to receive blessings. Camels and elephants walk the isles as
worshipers march to the alter with bowls of compost and worms. In the
middle of this pagan zoo, Vice President Al Gore delivered a sermon
in 1994 in which he said, "God is not separate from the Earth."

[ED. NOTE: Gore was actually speaking at the Gaia Institute, which is
at the Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine. The Temple of
Understanding is located there as well.]

Those who worship at the Temple of Understanding follow the teachings
of activists like Peter Singer, the father of animal rights. He
wrote, "Christianity is our foe. If animal rights is to succeed we
must destroy the Judeo-Christian religious tradition." Helen
Caldicott of the Union of Concerned Scientists said, "…Capitalism is
destroying the Earth." Maurice Strong said, "Isn't the only hope for
the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn't it
our responsibility to bring that about?"







Sierra Madre (11/18/00; 14:17:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41709)
Various thoughts...
1. I see where ET quotes D.Bardallis who mentioned the Oklahoma bombing.
I must express this, FWIW:
Do you recall that just before the Oklahoma bombing, there was a surging movement in favor of CITIZEN MILITIAS? There was a groundswell favoring them.
Then came the bombing.
The result: the militia movement collapsed from one day to the next.
A Thought: Could this have been a psy-war operation? People I talk to refuse to believe it. "Impossible!"
2. I quote ORO:
"I don't think that FDR style socialization of the country and dismantling of the constitution would be accepted again as a
cure for anything. Even if it is a total economic collapse with a third of the country out of work. A core "free market"
group - people like us - find no excuses for government - and will loudly blame it when the time comes."

My views:

When the disaster strikes - a scenario involving a collapsing dollar, stock market and bond market; insufficient energy; spiralling interest rates and prices, collapsing employment and shut-down of industries - the population will be crazed by fear and numbed by drugs.

Those in power will HAVE to turn to extremely activist (i.e. interventionist, Socialist) demagoguery and policies. Which will only make matters worse, of course. "The people" will demand action, action now.

Forget the Constitution or any sane recommendations by a "core free market group". Fear, panic, will wipe out all restraint in government action.

Mexico has lived through this - 1995. But the Mexican people are relatively manageable, and they rely on family ties to survive. Poverty is familiar to them.

The American people are unfamiliar with poverty and distress. They will not be able to handle desperate times.
They will go mad with fear and its companion, anger.

A big war? Check out the World Net Daily piece on the overflying of a carrier group in the China-Phillipines-Japan theatre, by Russian planes; just reported. The U.S. is short on oil. The military is debilitated. War, this time, would mean a wipeout of the U.S. mainland. Not a very palatable alternative. Bombs are supposed to be used on someone else's territory, and watched on CNN. So the alternative of another great war doesn't seem so possible, to me.

Perhaps the mayhem would be less under a Bush presidency; but as I see it, the U.S. rulers, either under Bush or under Gore, will be forced to restrict freedom greatly and to adopt VAST new government powers and activities. The problem: to hold together 280 million Americans and keep them from cutting each other's throats.

The worst problems would probably present themselves in the urban areas, which voted mostly for Gore. "Bread and circuses!" was the formula in Imperial Rome, for the same reason. The countryside is dispersed, the raging crowds will be in the cities. "SOMA" - the happy-making drug dispensed by the rulers in Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" - would be the thing to keep the masses passive.

Time to keep a very low profile and survive.

It's going to get quite ugly. I hope I'm wrong.

Finally, 3. Thank you Black Blade for the invaluable updates on the energy situation. Excellent postings!

Best wishes to all,

Sierra.

PH in LA (11/18/00; 13:58:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41708)
Message for Farfel
Greetings, Farfel;

Your disillusioned bitterness and antaganism towards the democrats for the lack of concordance between their words and their deeds falls far short of giving the effect you would like it to have. The reason for this is simple!

You continue to insist the it is DEMOCRATS that do this, while at the same time conveniently and carefully overlooking the fact that it has long been the other side that practises this tactic to perfection. Which side was it that brayed so loudly about keeping the present election process out of the courts while at the same time running straight to federal court seeking an injunction against continuing hand counting? A request so absurd and obviously self-seeking that it was denied twice? Which candidate moaned about "fuzzy math" when it was his own figures that didn't add up? When the only thing fuzzy was that candidate's own understanding of mathematical concepts? Which candidate signed legislation in Texas in 97 that provided for hand counts in close elections while presently whining about how unfair and politically biased they are? Which candidate spent months on the campaign trail braying and crowing about "compationate conservativism" after he himself as govenor had reduced his final review of death penalty cases from his predecessor's thirty minutes to fifteen minutes? Who brags that he has never commuted a single condemned man's (or woman's) sentence and never will? What's "compationate" about that?

The list of examples of this kind of rhetoric (and thought processes) could go on forever. It has been the main stock-in-trade of the Bush family since George Herbert Walker (Mr. Out-Of-The-Loop, Ex-CIA Chief) Bush was so (thankfully) briefly president. There is no reason whatsoever to conclude that his son will behave any differently. In fact, he has already embraced this concept by selecting flunkies from his father's ranks such as James Baker and Cheney to continue to do so.

No, you would be better advised to look into your heart and ask whether the solution you offer to the Democrats' transgressions is not actually worse than the disease. This will likely be a process that you will find much harder to endure than I do... After all, I never had my own picture taken with President Clinton, or any other president. But certainly, if George Jr. does manage to slink his way into the oval office without counting votes in Florida that were hand counted at the legally-sanctioned request of the very counties where those ballots were cast, you may rest assured that for many people in this country, as well as around the world, he will never be anything more than just another "Wannabe President of the United States of America". When you think about it, guys like this are a dime-a-dozen, just like ambitious little rich guys with George Jr.'s pathetic qualifications.

At the same time, "the republican party definitely does NOT stand for the little guy or blacks or jews or rednecks or techies or lesbians or whomever, they only stand for power at any cost."

The know it.

They admit it.

The brag about it.

Do you agree with them now, to support them even as you lamment the democrats' unspoken embrace of their same own avowed philosophy?

Is your own philosophical inconsistency so complete as to embrace the same avowed republican philosophy that you eloquently condemn in the Clintonites?

Journeyman (11/18/00; 13:53:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41707)
Neutrality slipping, blood pressure rising @ALL

I'm sorry, but it's increasingly difficult to remain neutral and gleeful during this circus. It's ultimately very good for the cause of individual freedom to have the circus to continue -- which it will undoubtedly.

But Farfel is much too positive toward these things things from the Gore campaign that call themselves "democrats."

It's not that they have determined to "win at any cost," it's not that they are obviously cheating by manufacturing, changing, mis-labeling, etc. votes -- they're just a little better at these things than the Republicans.

What drives me off the scale is that they regularly invent new variations of "blaming the victim." THEY do it, then blame it on who they do it to.

Lately, for example, after demanding recounts, blocking certification through court orders, etc., etc., etc., the Gore things now claim the Republicans are trying to slow down the process. [blood pressure 200 over 90]

Typically, democrats also claim the republicans are "partisan," when the recounts are overseen by (two democrats + one republican)*2 and three democrats [the make-up of the three canvassing committees overseeing the recount.] Typically also, apparently the republicans don't quite know how to handle the charge of "partisanship." Perhaps they know it's true OF COURSE -- but by some congenital flaw in conservative's brains, can't recognize partisanship when exhibited by their opponents. [blood pressure 220 over 110]

And finally -- I'm headed out the door to the emergency room -- the democrats claim it is irresponsible for the republicans to point out that the democrats are, by gum, CHEATING THEIR DISGUSTING PARTISAN IRRESPONSIBLE ASSES RIGHT OFF, so much so that many of them will have to carry those little inflatible "donuts" around with them the rest of their lives whenever they plan on sitting down.

I know I'm hopelessly old fashioned, but I think that especially under such circumstances as these, those who CHEAT are irresponsible, and those who know about it and DON'T report it are equally as irresponsible.

Regards,
Journeyman


Journeyman (11/18/00; 13:01:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 41706)
"Rule of law" @ALL

Cynicism alert! You're about to read what just may be the truth -- and to the "western mind" it may be quite troubling.

To paraphrase Stalin, "Laws don't determine justice. The people who interpret laws determine justice."

That is, there is NEVER "the rule of law." It is ALWAYS "the rule of men."

That is it should be clear, especially to anyone who is following this really great election debacle, that to the extent we wish to rely on "laws," we are actually relying on the judgement of those who write, and more particularly, the judgement of those who enforce and interpret them.

Regards,
Journeyman


Hi-Hat (11/18/00; 12:53:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41705)
Money Market Money
As a cornerstone of investment prudence going forward
DO NOT leave your funds in run of the mill money market
funds.

Bank and Brokerage funds should be held in the Government
Asset backed ones.

Many of these money markets are backed by an asset mix of pure garbage.

The net asset value (NAV) is formulated and proclaimed to be a 1.00 on a monthly basis. There could come a time when
they are "adjusted" to be lower than a dollar.

The banks themselves warn you that these money markets are not Government insured.

Now is the time to heed their WARNING.

lamprey_65 (11/18/00; 12:04:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 41704)
DaveC
Yes, I agree - let's not overthink the politician's "will to power"...

Both candidates are sure of their abilities to handle ANY situation which might arise.

Unfortunately, I believe the Dems have the upper hand going forward. Let me explain.

I think many here would agree that the good times we've seen since '95 are over. These good times were fueled mainly by excess Fed liquidity, foreign inflows of capital, low commodity prices, expanding debt levels, and an ever growing stock market bubble. These conditions no longer exist. We now must unwind the excesses.

If the above is accurate, would a Republican Presidency prove successful. I doubt it. The Republicans will have control of both houses of Congress along with the executive branch...Americans will blame them for the coming hard times.

So, what if Gore wins? His strategy will be to blame the Congress for not carrying through on his programs designed to help us poor, suffering citizens. The majority of Americans LIKE big government. This is NOT the country Washington, Jefferson, et al. created.

It's a no-win situation for the GOP.

JavaMan (11/18/00; 10:41:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41703)
(No Subject)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_keyes/20001118_xcake_pursuing_j.shtml
This guy is a voice crying in the wilderness...too bad he didn't get the nomination...

"We must encourage our fellow citizens to renew their devotion to Declaration principles. If we fail, all our attempts to live in peace and good order will eventually fail as well. There will come a time, much like the present difficulty, perhaps, when we will suddenly realize that men with power have decided that the time is right to use it, but we have forgotten why they should refrain. Then there will come a rush to exit all the connections of trust and cooperation upon which our free institutions depend. "The devil take the hindmost" will be our new creed in that day but, in fact, he will take us all.

Against these dangers, we must establish again our explicit, national adherence to the principles of human equality and common pursuit of justice under God that the Declaration proclaimed. We must do so in ways that empower and encourage the humble confidence in decent citizens of every description that they can trust those around them to join the work of building communities of civility and justice. For there is only one thing truly necessary to build a community, and that is the sharing of the spark of understanding that we are God's children, and bound to do his will together."

dragonfly (11/18/00; 10:05:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41702)
Tug of War Just a Set-up ????
DaveC, Black Blade, ET, SteveH, All


Just watched a Democratic strategist on Fox News (not formally affiliated with the Gore campaign) describe how he has been contacting his long-term networks in states that don't mandate electors votes going for the candidate who won those states and how these networks are "identifying" electors who are potentials for either switching their vote or abstaining.

Sure seems this is way bigger than Bush and Gore.

The interviewer was particularly "aggressive" and repeatedly focussed his questioning on the aspect of whether or not this guy's intention (Bob Beckell??) was to cause a "constitutional crisis".

Could Sherman Skolnick be right?

Regards,
dragonfly

Cavan Man (11/18/00; 09:46:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41701)
Hello ET
Counting, counting; Bush is still in the lead. Although he's no bargain, I am just beginning to get a little upset with the Democrat's efforts to undermine what is admittedly a narrow victory.

ET (11/18/00; 09:29:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 41700)
David Bardallis
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/bardallis3.html

Presidential Tug-of-War Is Good for
Liberty

by David Bardallis

It looks like Don Goreleone and the crime family known as the "Democrats" are
trying to steal themselves a presidential election. They've dispatched a cloud of
lawyers and politicos down to Florida and, true to the Clinton tactic of "legal
spamming," will continue to file lawsuits, hold demonstrations, and babble about
"the will of the people" until a beguiled nation awards Uncle Al his precious
presidency.

Could this be the last peaceful transfer of power we enjoy in America? Are fair
elections passe? From now on, will presidential aspirants and their factions
conspire to off their rivals in the grand tradition of the Roman Emperors?

If so, lovers of liberty have reason to mourn for the final remnants of their beloved
Western heritage, which includes the towering achievements of limited government
and the rule of law. On the other hand, we Americans have always had a way of
making lemonade out of lemons. Let's look at this from another angle.

A government's ability to rule relies on its citizens’ belief that its rule is legitimate.
If Al Gore and his minions succeed in manipulating the election results to their
favor, an incoming Gore administration will face the daunting prospect that at least
half of the country – the half that voted for Bush – views it as illegitimate. Add to
that half the millions who, out of disgust or indifference, didn't bother to vote, as
well as the third-party voters, and you have, perhaps for the first time, a majority of
Americans who believe the federal government rules unlawfully. And with all of the
alarums and excursions provided courtesy of the Democrats, a Bush
administration might not have a much better time of it.

Of course, the federal government as presently constituted operates well beyond
the bounds set for it in the U.S. Constitution and will continue to do so, no matter
who sits in the White House come January. However, decade after decade of
arbitrary edicts and capricious ukases from a largely unlimited government has
resulted in a blooming consciousness among the American public that something is
wrong.

One dramatic example of this rising consciousness comes to mind. Following the
Oklahoma City bombing tragedy, every media talking head in the land could be
seen screaming loudly for new federal powers to investigate and prosecute
"right-wing terrorists." Even Rush Limbaugh was suddenly decried as an instigator
of violence. After weeks of this ham-handed propaganda, an April 1995
Time/CNN poll found not only that 61 percent of respondents believed the
government already had adequate power to investigate terrorism, but a majority--52
percent – believed that "the federal government has become so powerful that it
poses a threat to the rights and freedoms of citizens."

I don't put much stock in polls, but nevertheless I continue to find these results
noteworthy. In the face of the largest, most hysterical propaganda campaign
against political conservatives that I can remember, the propaganda outlets’ own
polls still seemed to be showing that majorities weren't buying what they were
selling. Even more importantly, the polls seemed to be showing plenty of people
willing to say what I bet even more are thinking: the government has overstepped
its bounds and is out of control.

So let the political class bicker and argue over their latest "constitutional crisis."
The more they publicly break the rules while making fools of themselves, the more
ordinary Americans will realize just how ridiculous it is to trust any of them with
the large amounts of power and authority that we've ceded to them over the years.

Either way this electoral cookie crumbles, it looks like the real winner could yet be
liberty.

November 18, 2000

David Bardallis is co-editor of LexNatura.Net, a conservative, Catholic journal
of politics and culture.

elevator guy (11/18/00; 08:06:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41699)
Here's a funny line from the past!
This was reportedly spoken over the phone in a bitter state politics race a few years ago, where one party mnember was talking to a state official, and the state official defiantly fires back in a Southern drawl-

"Listen you s.o.b., it dont matter what you say, because its not the vote that counts, it how we count 'em"

Hipplebeck (11/18/00; 07:43:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41698)
(No Subject)
I just saw a chart showing that US oil inventories fell steadily from the beginning of 1999 to the end of 1999 to their lowest point. I also remember that the US government was assuring us that we had nothing to worry about because everyone had stockpiled for Y2K and that we needn't bother with it. An out and out lie.

DaveC (11/18/00; 07:28:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41697)
Price Inflation Through Regulation
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/18/business/18SAFE.html
"This is the largest regulation that OSHA has ever issued and probably more costly than anything else that the Federal government has done in the workplace," said Patrick J. Cleary, vice president for human resources policy at the National Association of Manufacturers. "It's enormous."

This article is about OSHA setting regulations for business under the guise of preventing repetetive injuries. Remember how the Americans With Disabilites Act has been stretched to cover whatever it is someone wants it to cover.

Well here comes another one of the same.


DaveC (11/18/00; 06:39:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41696)
Counting Indentations
http://www.detroitnews.com/2000/politics/0011/18/politics-150190.htm
In one piece of welcome news for Gore, Broward officials announced they would use a more expansive standard in evaluating whether voters meant to mark their ballots for one candidate or another.
They will begin counting indentations by candidate names, not just fully or partially punched boxes. The change could increase the overall number of votes counted, a majority of which are expected to go for Gore, based on the overall election results.
Aides to Gore were projecting Friday night that the vice president's 48-vote gain in 132 Broward precincts would grow to 250 or more when all 609 precincts are counted. They based the figure on the number of ballots in those precincts where the machine tally showed no vote for president.


You're not in Kansas anymore.


Pandagold (11/18/00; 06:30:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 41695)
He's no fool
Let anyone who thinks Saddam is a fool think of this:
Do you realise how much this guy can make for himself, and his friends ( on the derivative markets) just by opening his mouth? He watches how the game is played, as we all should, then it's monkey see, monkey do.

As my little messages try to get across. Stop trying to fight the system, don't get uptight, because things are not going the way YOU want. You are not going to change things. Watch the flow of the river - incidentally, it ALWAYS flows to the sea, then go with the flow.

Money (serious money) always flows to the 'sea' of greatest return for the least risk, anything else is an overlow to swampy ground. Just stay in the main stream and don't fight the flow (or the fed).

Black Blade (11/18/00; 06:21:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41694)
A Country Divided
http://www.SierraTimes.com/images/e2000map.jpg
Don't think that this country is divided? Check out the link! WOW!

DaveC (11/18/00; 06:16:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 41693)
Clinton Gore Motis Operandi
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20001117.shtml
Gore - More Desperate, More Ugly
By Thomas Sowell
11-18-00


It was only a few words among the millions that have been spewed out through the media about the presidential election, but they were among the weightiest -- and most chilling -- of these words. A front-page story in the Wall Street Journal mentioned in passing "a quiet intelligence-gathering operation" begun by the Gore camp, "checking into the backgrounds of Republican electors, with an eye toward persuading them to vote for Mr. Gore." Those who vote in the electoral college are not legally bound to vote for those whom the voters in their states voted for. But if the Gore operatives are merely trying to "persuade" Bush electors to defect, then why this hush-hush digging into the past of these electors?

All this is going on while the Gore spokesmen are saying on TV at every opportunity that "every vote should count." But a Bush voter's vote will not count if his elector who actually votes in the electoral college decides to vote for Gore, rather than have some scandal from his past made public.

This is only the latest in the desperate and ugly tactics used by the Gore camp, in order to take the presidency by all means necessary. Nor is this a new tactic for the Clinton/Gore administration.

It was used against Congressman Bob Livingston and Chairman Henry Hyde, whose old extra-marital affairs were dug up and made public on the eve of the impeachment hearings. It was used against Linda Tripp, whose confidential personnel files were made public, with an assurance from Attorney General Janet Reno that the person who made them public would not be prosecuted.

This is the same administration that kept Wen Ho Lee in solitary confinement for nine months without a trial, on grounds that he was so dangerous to national security that he could not be allowed at large -- and then dropped the vast majority of the charges against him when time came to put up or shut up in court. This supposedly dangerous man had been free as a bird for months after the security breach that he was accused of had taken place, before he was suddenly locked up -- and he is now free as a bird yet again after all but one of the 58 charges were dropped.

This extraordinary punishment without conviction caused something equally extraordinary -- a public apology in open court to Mr. Lee by the federal judge who had sent him to prison. The judge had done so on the basis of dire national security claims made by the Clinton administration, claims which the judge now said turned out to be completely misleading.

The "politics of personal destruction," which Bill Clinton has publicly deplored, has been his method of operation for years, going all the way back to his days as governor of Arkansas. Al Gore has now taken over the techniques of his mentor, with his operatives' innuendoes about Ralph Nader's sex life on the eve of the election and their digging up George W. Bush's minor brush with the law 24 years ago.

More is involved here than "dirty tricks" or the character flaws of those who engage in them. These corrupt ways of operating are a danger to the very nature of American government. If you can steal an election by blackmailing members of the electoral college, then democracy becomes a farce.

Constitutional checks and balances mean nothing if you can blackmail anyone who would expose your illegal actions and ruin a few of them just to show that you mean business. Bob Livingston was scheduled to become Speaker of the House, but now he is not even a member of Congress.

Who would ever want to prosecute any president for anything and be subjected to months of character assassination like Kenneth Starr, including reckless and inflammatory charges that Starr had violated the law? These charges all turned out to be wholly unsubstantiated when examined in a court of law, but that did not stop them from being repeated anyway on nationwide television during the impeachment hearings.


If the government of the United States is going to be run like the mafia or a Third World despotism, what does our freedom amount to? Any of us could be thrown into prison and kept in solitary confinement for months like Wen Ho Lee, until we "confessed" to something -- however minor -- just so we could get out, and so that the administration gets off the hook legally and Janet Reno can discount our statements as those of a "criminal."

Is this America? Do we want another administration like this?


©2000 Creators Syndicate, Inc.


Black Blade (11/18/00; 06:10:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41692)
RE: Bonedaddy
I hear ya! (though I'm Libertarian). Love the "Guns and Gold" mantra. Cheers!

DaveC (11/18/00; 06:08:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 41691)
ORO (11/18/2000; 1:02:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41678)
What bugs me is why anyone would want to be president of this upcoming disaster. Could the candidates be in the dark?

I think the answer to your questions here is better understood when you realize that these are not normal, real, human beings we are watching here.

Clinton and Gore are power hungry sociopaths who have proven to us normal, real, clear thinking individuals that they will stop at nothing to get more power.

In their minds there is no problem in the US. And certainly no problem so big that they cannot solve it with more legislation and executive orders.

They believe their own propaganda. The are delusional. The only goal is to win the office and keep the balls in the air.


Black Blade (11/18/00; 06:03:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41690)
"Learn to live with costly fuel: OPEC"
http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,1419390%255E462,00.html

Economies can put up with oil prices above $US30 a barrel, Saudi Arabia's oil minister said yesterday, signalling that OPEC would not raise output soon to ease high energy costs. "Although we desire the price to be less than $US30 for continuous growth in demand for crude oil, I believe the world economy can withstand this price," Ali al-Naimi said. "The economy is resilient enough to withstand this price for a short period." The Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries declined to increase output on the weekend, arguing markets were becoming saturated. The US and other countries had called for more crude to ensure adequate supplies during the northern winter. Saudi Arabia, the closest US ally within OPEC, has previously advocated prices closer to $US25 a barrel. Oil this year has surged more than 30 per cent in New York to more than $US34 a barrel. Saudi Arabia pumps one of every nine barrels worldwide. It would guarantee sufficient exports if shortages developed, Mr al-Naimi said. The jury was out on whether OPEC would need to increase output again before its next meeting on January 17, he said. OPEC generally wants lower prices to encourage long-term growth in demand, discourage development of alternative energy sources and limit investment in non-OPEC oil fields. The group is concerned that prices will sink if it produces too much oil, as they did in 1998, sending the market to around $US10 a barrel.

Black Blade: In other words - forget about the $25 to $28 per barrel price band! Forget about cheap oil! Look out for higher prices at the pump and for virtually all goods and services. Now that the Oil Producers have had a taste of high profits, they aren't going to cave in now. Besides, the US government is in chaos and no one knows who the next prez is. The US is a bit preoccupied now and so oil production will not rise. In fact it may even slow further. Also, not much excess production capacity left. Imagine if you will a Gore presidency: No new US oil and gas exploration and production, no new refineries - in fact older refineries will retire (shut-down), and the Arab OPEC members will be thrilled to see Joe Lieberman a heartbeat away from the presidency. Imagine if you will a Bush presidency: Not one, but two former oil executives in power, expanded drilling in areas now off-limits such as ANWR (Alaska north slope area), relaxed EPA regs to encourage building new refineries, and possibly a closer working relationship with most OPEC producing countries. Either way, cheap oil is gone forever as the "Super-Giants" (World Class oil fields) are depleted and not replaced (see original Hydro-Carbon Man post).


Bonedaddy (11/18/00; 05:47:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 41689)
Saw this over at Freerepublic.com
www.freerepublic.com
One of the posters was has named the Democrat ticket as Sore-Loserman 2000.

Bd note: I refuse to call the party of the left the "Democratic" party. Tossing out ballots you don't agree with is anything but "Democratic". It will just be the Democrats to me. Or possibly the "Three S Party".
(Socialism, Sodomy,& Surrender)

I wish I were young enough to join the military. It would be great to work around a bunch of heavily armed, conservative, Americans who loathe the Clintons and Gore. (Oh yeah, I forgot, I live in Wyoming and work in the oil patch. I guess this is my little slice of paradise.)

I cannot recall observing so much uncertainty about decision of this magnatude at any time in my life. If there was ever a time to own GOLD, this is it!


Black Blade (11/18/00; 05:41:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41688)
Winter Fears Push Up Oil Price
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1026000/1026000.stm
Oil prices are close to a five-week high again, amid worries over low oil stocks in the United States, fears of a cold winter and uncertainty over Iraqi exports. In Asia and in New York, the price of a barrel of Nymex crude oil rose as high as $35.65 - up 71 cents. In London, on barrel of Brent Crude oil currently trades at $33.75.

The latest boost to prices came after the US Department of Energy reported that heating oil stocks had dropped by half a million barrels to 47.8m - nearly a third less than at the same time a year ago. Marketwatchers now fear that a cold winter in the US could boost demand for oil to levels the market cannot meet. Traders said there was actually an adequate supply of crude oil on the markets, but that high prices had persuaded many to delay replenishing their stock of oil products. Energy analyst You Jing-feng of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter predicted oil prices could reach $40 by the end of the year, if it turned cold in the US. US energy secretary Bill Richardson said on Wednesday that "crude and heating oil inventories remain alarmingly, stubbornly low".

Iraq raises the price

Another worry is the flow of oil from Iraq, which is selling its oil under a UN sanctions regime. The government in Baghdad told buyers they would have to pay a 50% premium over the official selling price into an account not controlled by the United Nations - or lose new contracts. This, however, would force traders to break UN sanctions. As most of them are unlikely to risk that, the flow of oil from Iraq could be cut back sharply from December onwards. Iraq supplies about 5% of the oil available on world markets.

Black Blade: Sounds as though some people are beginning to worry about supply and unstable producing nations. Interesting that Iraq needs a 50% premium over the selling price. Go for it Saddam! Going to get interesting.


Hipplebeck (11/18/00; 05:36:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 41687)
cnn
I don't know if anyone else saw it, but yesterday during the cnn coverage about what is going on in Florida, they quit putting the stock market numbers down in the right hand corner intermittently with the time of day. I had to think to myself that there is some agenda in ommitting the numbers, as they have always been there on other days.

Pandagold (11/18/00; 03:09:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41686)
Questions and Answers
Question: What is the best way to confound the doubters in the unity and strength of the US and its economic and political policies?
Answer: Keep the dollar strong in a time of perceived internal crisis.

Question: What is the best way to keep the dollar strong, and ensure there are no option 'safe havens'?
Answer: Hold gold, and the Euro down - in fact, better still, make them go the other way.

Question: What was the best way to stop the run on a bank?
(Come on, you've all seen those old western movies}
Answer: You stashed lots of bags of gold (or what appeared to be gold) in the windows, carried 'money boxes' in, and kept your doors open, and a smile on your face.

When, perhaps, the greatest world leader of this century (if they had let him live) J.F. Kennedy, said:- If you walk like a duck, act like a duck, and quack like a duck, sooner or later, people will believe you are a duck. He was telling you that it is was is perceived, and not what is, that matters.

Here endeth the first lesson


Black Blade (11/18/00; 01:55:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41685)
Hydro-Carbon Man Update: SPR Oil fiasco, Natural Gas and electricity.
SPR Oil

It appears that the Clinton-Gore 30 million-barrel SPR oil release will yield only about 250,000 barrels of heating oil for US citizens living in the Northeastern US. Robert S. Kripowicz, an acting assistant secretary of energy admitted to Republican members of the House Commerce Subcommittee that the administration's forecast that the SPR oil release would result in 3 to 5 million barrels of heating oil were wildly over optimistic. This is no surprise as the whole SPR oil release was politically motivated ahead of US elections. The hearings broke down amid charges of social engineering as 3 minority firms with no big oil experience had winning bids for some of the SPR oil. Two of the winning bids failed as letters of credit were not produced before the deadline.

An official at one refinery told the subcommittee that the release of the SPR oil caused transportation problems that will delay its shipment. John P. Surma, senior VP of Marathon Ashland Petroleum LLC, which was awarded 3.9 million barrels, said that the oil has overloaded a key terminal at Nederland, Texas. The result is that the oil is not likely to be delivered until December. There are bottlenecks throughout the energy system. Supply is not the real problem here, but rather pipeline capacity, tanker capacity, refinery capacity, etc. Inventories are at 24 year lows, but that is because no one wants to hold oil in a volatile market and chance a declining oil price while holding and refining expensive oil. There appears to be another strange problem. That is the Jones Act, an 80 year old law that requires refineries to use US flagged ships with US crewed ship to move petroleum products from one US port to another. The tight tanker capacity only exacerbates the problem. Government regulations – isn't it wonderful?

Natural Gas and electricity

The biggest and most overlooked issue is not heating oil but rather the shortage of natural gas. Should this winter turn out to be a normal or colder than usual winter, then the situation could go critical. Five times as many US citizens use natural gas for heating than those who use heating oil. There is more competition for that natural gas than in the past. Virtually all of new electricity is generated from natural gas fired turbines. That means even after the winter season passes, natural gas prices are likely to remain priced higher than normal. Taking oil from the SPR does little to relieve the natural gas shortage but only discourages energy conservation by giving false impressions of an endless stream of petroleum products. This will lower prices in the short term but over the long term natural gas prices are destined to rise. Rising energy prices will be a key element in higher long-term inflation. Recent earnings shortfalls reported for the third quarter had numerous reasons given, but most clearly stated the Euro exchange rates and rising energy prices. Companies can't absorb the costs forever, and eventually these costs will be passed along and the result is inflation.

The electricity crisis has already hit hard in major population centers in California. San Diego was one of the first cities to open up to deregulation and within days of deregulation, electricity rates nearly tripled. The rest of the state was hit with rolling brownouts, including Silicon Valley, the center of the high-tech industry. Why did this happen? Simply put, power demand is driven by the technology revolution that is sweeping around the globe. Computer use currently absorbs about 15% of electricity, and that is definitely going to increase. Of course there are also the regulators who over the years have refused to pass along construction costs of power plant building to the consumer. The result has been a lack of power plant building. Environmental issues have also played a role as environmentalists have gained political power and helped to prevent the building of power plants and upgrading the energy grid. These decisions will come to haunt Californians for years to come. The CEO of PG&E the dominant Power Company in California was interviewed on CNBC. It was quite pathetic as he tried to describe how consumers would have plenty of electricity. The host Mark Haines brought up all the foregoing issues and the CEO meekly agreed. The consumer will pay one way or another, or suffer the indignity of living in third world conditions. The consumer will either pay higher rates, pay more in taxes to subsidize electricity, or swelter in this next summer's heat.

There is a natural gas rush under way. Natural gas prices have rocketed to all time highs in over the last two years. Companies are struggling to meet demand as they search for available equipment and experienced workers. Imports don't work, as it is expensive to transport natural over long distances. Old gas fields are in decline after several years of exploitation. The recent surge in demand caught many exploration and production companies flat-footed as they worried more about staying solvent during recent years. Most companies reduced exploration and production budgets, and this also hammered the equipment suppliers as well. They shelved equipment, and cut down on spending for equipment such as new drill rigs and support equipment.

Companies in the Gulf of Mexico see declines of 30% to 40% a year in mature gas fields. They haven't been able to explore for new sources or to improve mature fields. Pipeline companies and processors are in similar difficulties where equipment must be upgraded and new distribution systems built. Of course, another major problem is finding experienced workers who left the industry during the lean years. Good luck! Many became fed up after losing homes and the break up of their families when the market last cratered. Many are never coming back. Many drillers have to work short-handed as a result. The latest rig count courtesy of Baker Hughes Inc. (NYSE: BHI), an oil-field services company says that 1035 rigs were drilling last week, compared to 488 in April of last year. 833 of those rigs are exploring for natural gas. These rigs are drilling 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. With all that equipment running, there are the inevitable breakdowns. Demand is so strong that junkyard rig dealers are finally cashing in by refurbishing rigs once destined for the scrap heaps. Some rigs are constructed out of spare parts.

The result is that there isn't enough exploration and production to make up for the declining mature oil fields and the rising demand for natural gas. The end result is higher energy costs. Since energy is a vital and critical sector, prices will rise and will be passed along to the consumer. The pundits can shout all day long about the new economy and how it is different this time. It is precisely this new economy that is sucking up all this power. They will shout that petroleum isn't as important as it used to be. I wonder what they will say when they are staring at a blank computer screen? Will anyone be listening? The only thing that will be "different this time" is the severity of the coming recession that will follow ever higher energy costs.

- Black Blade





justamereBear (11/18/00; 01:52:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41684)
Black Blade 41672


Yes It is true, and as per my previous post, and with a bit of luck, he will cry all the way to the bank.



Black Blade (11/18/00; 01:50:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41683)
Canvassing Boards in Floriduh Engaged in Voter Fraud!
Many Overseas Ballots Rejected

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - More than 1,100 overseas absentee ballots were thrown out Friday as Republicans complained of a coordinated challenge by Democrats, particularly against ballots from military personnel. In some counties, half or nearly all of the ballots were rejected, many of them military ballots that apparently didn't have postmarks. Orange County, for example, rejected 117 of its 147 overseas ballots. ``The party of the man who wants to be the next commander-in-chief is trying to throw out the votes of the men and women he will be commanding,'' charged Jim Post, a Republican lawyer in Duval County, where 107 ballots were rejected. ``We had a lot of ballots with no postmarks so we had to declare them invalid,'' said Dick Carlberg, assistant elections supervisor in Duval County. Overall, counties accepted nearly 1,500 overseas ballots.

Thomas Spencer, a Miami attorney for Bush, said the GOP legal team would weigh whether to sue this weekend. ``One of the problems with those ballots is it is so difficult under Florida and federal law that you almost have to be a rocket scientist to comply,'' he said.

Democrats dismissed the GOP suggestions of a coordinated campaign, noting local election officials made the decisions. ``Rushing to a hasty conclusion and making partisan accusations is exactly what we don't need right now,'' Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Backus said. Earlier this week, Mark Herron, a Tallahassee lawyer helping shepherd Democratic presidential election lawsuits through the local courts, sent a five-page letter to Democratic attorneys throughout Florida giving them tips on how to lodge protests against overseas ballots.

Such protests must be lodged before the ballot is taken out of the envelope. The letter focused on protesting military ballots, which are assumed to be heavily in favor of Bush, and included a section on military postmarks. Herron said in an interview his five-page letter ``went to the folks we had in the field that were out there monitoring absentee ballots, just like the other side was out there. Our memo was intended to express the law of the state of Florida as we understand it and provide direction and guidance to the people who were in the field. ``I'm not the only one that did this,'' he added. ``Everybody got the opportunity to argue their case in front of the canvassing boards.''

Republicans circulated a letter dated Friday from Navy Capt. E.M DuCom, deputy director of the military postal service, who said military mail is required to be postmarked. But he added, ``There are instances when time constraints do not allow for proper postmarking/cancellation of the mail. The last flight may be departing the ship and the mail has to get on it.'' Ed Gillespie, a Republican strategist working for Bush in Florida, said 110 of 113 write-in ballots, mostly from military forces, were invalidated by officials in Miami-Dade County. He said more than half were thrown out because they had no witness or witness address listed but ``the form doesn't indicate that a witness is necessary.''

With all but about a few counties reporting, Bush was leading Gore by more than 700 votes, including overseas totals and those already certified by the state, an Associated Press survey showed. Counties have until noon Saturday to report their results to Secretary of State Katherine Harris, who will not be able to certify the election until after the Florida Supreme Court meets Monday to hear arguments about ongoing hand recounts in South Florida.

But the latest battle was over overseas ballots.

``There are more attorneys than there are ballots,'' said Bob Edwards, Chairman of the Republican Executive Committee for Walton County, where five votes were tossed out. More than three-quarters of Orange County's 147 overseas absentee ballots were rejected by that county's canvassing board. Supervisor of Elections Bill Cowles said he was shocked by that number but attributes the 117 rejections to voters failing to keep their records current. However, Republicans handed out an affidavit from the chief postal clerk of the aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy to counter Democratic challenges to envelopes without postmarks. ``It is not unusual for mail being sent by naval personnel, whether embarked on naval vessels or otherwise, not to have a postmark,'' Edgardo Rodriguez said.

Black Blade: Who the hell do those military service people think they are by rocking the boat! What did they ever do for the rest of us anyway! (Black Blade seething with sarcasm!) Looks like the Dems are doing the exact same thing that they are accusing the Reps of doing. Bizarre, but then I never understood corrupt criminal minds as those in politics. Probably a good thing that we still have the 2nd amendment - right SteveH? We just might need it eventually.




justamereBear (11/18/00; 01:39:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41682)
ORO 41678

Oro
To my mind it is quite simple why one might want to be in power at a time when there is great change, or as you call it "disaster". (which I think is a mild word)

For the "in" group, there is as much, or more, to be made, in terms of assets and power, on the downswing as there is on the upswing. Just look at who benefited when USSR went down. Much of the Yeltsin crowd probably has a good deal more now than they would have had if conditions had remained static.

j'Bear

Black Blade (11/18/00; 01:32:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41681)
ORO #41678, You could be on to something there.
You may be right. I had thought that the whole purpose of the current flood of law suits and legal maneuverings were based on Gore's attempts to discredit a potential Bush presidency. As far as the stock markets are concerned, I went more defensive by unloading techs a few months ago. I still got some Intel and a few other techs (very small positions), but mostly I'm into energy, Utes (including some telecoms), REIT's, unhedged miners and of course - PMs. I don't see much upside in the markets at present especially with stratospheric valuations and slowing growth. It's going to get a lot more ugly before it gets better. I suspect that the Dems and their Wall Street friends who operate under the guise of "The Working Groups on Financial Markets" also known as the "Plunge Protection Team" could just pull the plug if they don't get their way in this election. I'm not sure of the motives of these two clowns (Bush and Gore) and their friends in this coronation race, but it doesn't look promising. For these reasons, I've gone defensive and am staying clear of any temptation to "buy the dips." In the meantime there are screaming bargains in very profitable unhedged miners that pay decent dividends (like HGMCY and GOLD), Physical Gold and Silver, some petroleum stocks (though most have run up already), and some decent yielding REITs. Heck, I even still like Stillwater Mining even though management is incompetent, and North American Palladium (PAL) with large newly defined reserves and a p/e of 4.8. Anything else could get severely squeezed if things turn out as I suspect. I just can't imagine an honest person running for a major government office under the current conditions unless as you allude to, that the motives may be an FDR-style dictatorship should the markets falter and the people demand "something be done." What a nightmare!

SteveH (11/18/2000; 1:13:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41680)
I dashed this off to CNN
I have been tuning in of late to see your coverage of the election. I have a few observations regarding your coverage.

Your experts don't all have a clear view of the legal issues.

Your legal experts seem to favor Gore, which support what I observe is CNN's more leftist bent of late.

As I see it (and I am not even a lawyer), the issue will boil down to discretion and intent of the legislature in putting a one-week time limit on the vote. All other issues are subterfuge and your participation in pushing the "make every vote count" to the American people without properly showing how every time their every vote gets counted as many get discounted. In other words, Florida's law of a one-week limitation on vote certification is meant to prevent multiple re-recounts. You have been led down this path by a strong democratic party machine who have learned the art of spin and you are the ones often times being spun.

The rule of law that Mr. Gore speaks has to do with the recounts and their desire to unduly influence a Florida official (Harris) whose duty it is to certify the vote after seven days.

Finally, you have not (that I have seen anyway) got an unbiased interview from statisticians who would probably tell you that if you counted the ballots 10-times, you would get 10 different results and that the election is within the margin of error that neither a hand count or a machine count is capable of distinguishing a true winner. Since you have failed to uncover that likely hypothesis you play into the hands of a one more hand count or a hand count after two machine counts will be the most accurate. I don't believe that it is statistically possible. How about convincing the public that 10-counts are better than three or four. Then we will know for sure.

You need to focus more on the intent of the 7-day rule for certification and point out that its purpose is prevent the very fiasco that the "every vote count" Gore spin has started. Why do you think there is a time limit? To prevent needless recounts.

Harris will be the key to this. The courts will support her discretion right on up to the supreme court of the United States. If they over turn her discretion than this will set a bad precedent for all other officials who must face hard choices fairly every day.

Black Blade (11/18/2000; 1:02:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41679)
"Arctic Refuge Fate May Hinge on Presidential Result"
From Steven D. King's Daily PetroDispatch,

This is a standard cookie cutter piece which most news services have on the shelf to pass for "new cutting" news. The liberal bias of the news media is evident by such statements as, "The fate of a stretch of tundra in northeastern Alaska hangs in the balance as the final presidential votes are tallied a continent away."

Bush wants to allow oil drilling in a 1.5-million-acre section of the 19-million-acre wildlife refuge, which industry advocates say could hold a Prudhoe Bay-sized bonanza. The majority of Alaskans and especially important, a majority of the Native Americans on the North Slope, side with Bush, a onetime oil industry executive.

Gore wants to preserve the area, the calving grounds for the huge Porcupine caribou herd and an important habitat for other Arctic wildlife. Of course, he ignores facts gathered from the Prudhoe Bay caribou herd which is much larger now.

Congress in 1995 did pass legislation to pry the refuge open to oil drilling. But President Clinton vetoed the bill and the issue was part of a standoff that caused the federal government shutdown. Months ago, conservation forces launched a drive to convince Clinton to use his last weeks in office to declare the refuge's coastal plain a national monument. Whether it would be legal to designate the coastal plain as a preserved monument is a matter of debate.





ORO (11/18/2000; 1:02:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41678)
Black Blade - why run for the office?
What bugs me is why anyone would want to be president of this upcoming disaster. Could the candidates be in the dark? Could Gore be after an attempt at setting up shop as populist dictator like FDR? To push his crazed agenda and keep the country in perpetual depression like FDR did before and the Japanese LDP did this decade?

I don't think that FDR style socialization of the country and dismantling of the constitution would be accepted again as a cure for anything. Even if it is a total economic collapse with a third of the country out of work. A core "free market" group - people like us - find no excuses for government - and will loudly blame it when the time comes.



It seems that the possibility of his coming ahead was discounted by his own people early on, and his come-back came as a surprise to Democrats, and they mounted a full blown attempt to get him in after having given up on him earlier.

If Gore is not really attempting to win, which is what I thought before the last few weeks preceeding the election, when Bush seemed to be taking things easy - expending the minimum effort, and Gore was making a real blitz, campaigning intensely - then what he is trying to do is undermine the Republicans so that they would not be able to respond to the upcoming economic disaster with anything that may work. I guess he is laying the groundwork for sabotage of the Bush presidency and the Republican Congress so that they will be discredited by the voters not only because of the economic disaster, but because of the inept response the Republicans will manage with a weak "mandate" and minimal power in congress.

I don't really worry much about stocks. Core Tech stocks will be hauled to the trash heap after the ESOP programs no longer pump up reported profits through stock appreciation. But in many sectors there will be profits enough to allow nominal stock price appreciation. The stock market didn't just tank in nominal terms since the 1966 peak, but continued trying to mount DOW 1000 for ages. Real returns in the stock market were negative, but nominal returns were positive for most people because of the dividends provided. It has been said before that a good stock is allways better than a bad currency, I expect that to be true in the future as well as it had been in the past.



SteveH (11/18/2000; 0:35:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41677)
a few items
http://216.46.231.211/credit.htm
repost snippet from above link. And we thought the cpi was under 6%. I believe the cpi converts housing to rental of housing in order to avoid inclusion of such mundane matters as real (estate) inflation.

--snippet--

Tuesday, The Los Angeles Times ran a story written by Daryl Strickland titled "Home Prices Continue to Rise in Region."

"Los Angeles and Orange County home prices grew at a torrid pace in October over the same month last year, suggesting that the tumult in the stock market and emerging signs of a national economic slowdown have yet to faze the region's housing market. Last month's surging prices--marked by double-digit percentage gains in nearly every housing category--also set the stage for robust home sales in the last two months of the year, a time when the market typically tapers off.
The median price for homes in Orange County soared 16% from October 1999 to a record $284,000. The median in Los Angeles County grew 10% to $203,000, according to a report released Monday by DataQuick Information Systems, a La Jolla research firm."

The article stated that the continued real estate boom was related to record employment of California workers, with 16 million employed through October, as well as wealth effects from selling stock and stock options. Another factor was a shortage of homes on the market, with only 3.3 months currently available. The article also quoted DataQuick's John Karevoll: "I think we're due for continued price increases and high sales levels. I don't see anything changing."

The California Association of Realtors reported that "the median price of an existing, single-family detached home in California during the third-quarter of 2000 was $247,450, the highest on record…the median price in Santa Clara hit $532,710, a 28.4% increase from the same period a year ago. For the entire state, the median price increased $27,690, or almost 13%, from a year ago. Condo prices jumped $23,230, or 14%. Prices rose sharply in virtually all regions and price levels. There was also yesterday's Business Wire story, "California Luxury Home Values See Largest Gains of the Year." "According to the Index, the average value of a Bay Area luxury home during the third quarter of 2000 jumped 14.5% over the previous quarter and passed the $2 million market for the first time in history…third quarter index figures also reflect a 33.3% increase since the beginning of the year…"

Again, it is just stunning how the unfolding collapse of the technology bubble has to this point simply created greater amounts of cheap credit to exacerbate an historic real estate bubble. This creates a major problem for the Fed. And with continued excess mortgage finance feeding directly into destabilizing housing inflation, it is another clear of example of how our system has seen "bad lending drive out good." As I have written before, the current U.S. financial system could not be more dysfunctional with its unrelenting fueling of asset inflation and speculative bubbles. I will conclude with an interesting exchange between Bloomberg and Chase Manhattan's Vice Chairman Jimmy Lee:

"What we've got now is a ‘stealth’ credit crunch because it's snuck up on people. Someone said it's worse than the 1998 credit crunch and maybe we don't know it yet because it hasn't affected the consumer. But it shows up in credit spreads. The credit spreads in many asset classes are wider than they have been since 1991 and that has seized up many of the asset classes."



SteveH (11/18/2000; 0:32:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 41676)
a few items
supremecourt@flcourts.org
Here is what I jotted off to the court:

Your Honorable Court,

The eyes of the nation are upon you. Please bear in mind that yours will be the biggest decision of any court any where or anytime in the history of our country.

Not that a non-lawyers opinion should matter but...your decision will also have great bearing on all future "discretion" of an administrative official for a long time. It is my belief that Ms. Harris, in her discretion, should be upheld -- the law of Florida is clear in that the legislature thought to put a time limit on ballot certification to prevent the very event that you know must decide. Was the legislative intent of the one-week limitation on certification to prevent recount after recount? Does Ms. Harris's discretion stand judicial scrutiny? I believe the answer to be yes and yes.

Good luck.

Farfel,

Well spoken sentiment. "Every vote count" is better expressed like the fortune cookie game where you add "in bed" at the end, except in this case, you add "for Mr. G." Try this game with Mr. G's comments. You will be amazed how accurately it too reflects your thoughts.

And to think, should he win the election we will have to go through this ridiculousness for four years whilst he tries to take away other rights, whilst the banking industry melts down.





ViewYesterday's Discussion.

Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.

Centennial Precious Metals Gold coins & bullion since 1973 P.O. Box 460009 Denver, Colorado 80246-0009 We educate first-time investors!

We invite you to contact our trading desk for quotes and purchase information. 1-800-869-5115 00-800-8720-8720 6:00am to 6:00pm MtnTime; Mon-Fri admin@usagold.com

USAGOLD Rated A+