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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 12/18/1999 All times are U.S. Mountain Time View Yesterday's Discussion. Black Blade (12/18/99; 23:24:51MDT - Msg ID:21298) Some reports I've seen are more depressing for Au industry. http://thebullandbear.com/resource/index1.html Found at the Bull and Bear. Also a dated (Nov. 98) article from our host MK in the archives at: http://thebullandbear.com/articles/1507-gold.htmlMine Production Will Remain Flat for Next Four Years High Cost and Marginal Mines to Close Despite gold prices that averaged $37 per ounce less than in 1997, world gold mine production grew 3 percent in 1998 to reach 82 million ounces. However, declining exploration expenditures and the closure of high-cost mines are lowering projections for future gold production, according to World Gold Mine Production, 1998-2002, published by The Gold Institute.The 3 percent increase was mainly due to rapid development and expansion of low-cost mines in Peru, Indonesia and the United States. Worldwide, production is forecast to increase only 1 percent by 2002, and is contingent on South Africa expanding its production by 4 percent to 15.6 million ounces in 2002. If South African mines do not increase production as forecastwhen gold was at $285 an ouncethen worldwide totals would decline. Unless prices increase, the report noted, production will likely decline 1.5 to 2 percent per year for the next few years."Unless prices recover, a more substantial global decline in production will occur in the 5 to 10 year period as existing sites are mined out and not replaced by new discoveries due to the severe cuts in exploration spending that are occurring today," the report stated.Among the world's largest gold producers, Australian miners are forecasting a 12-percent decline by 2002. Canadian miners expect a 10-percent decline and U.S. miners forecast a 6-percent decline by 2002. Worldwide, the top five countriesSouth Africa, United States, Australia, Indonesia and ChinaWill produce 46 million ounces or 55 percent of the global output by 2002. Canada, which is currently in fourth place in production, will be replaced by Indonesia by 2000, if current expectations are realized.The report highlights trends in gold production. In recent years, for example, development of new low-cost mines such as Pierina and Yanacocha in Peru, Porgera and Lihir in Papua, New Guinea, Grasberg in Indonesia and Cortex and Meikle in the United States have helped to lower production costs. In addition, they have accelerated the search for other high-grade ore bodies in their surrounding areas. As high-cost mines close in the coming years, these and other mines, such as Pascua in Chile and Batu Hijau in Indonesia, will replace them.Because of lower gold prices, the industry is undergoing consolidation, creating fewer but more efficient mining operations. "This will lead to closure of marginal or unprofitable mines as the acquiring companies seek to best organize the consolidated assets," the report stated. "The trend, at least in North America and Australia, is toward the industry being dominated by only a handful of players. Also, unless fortunes change soon, some smaller companies with high-cost operations will be forced to join the growing number of junior companies that shut down completely because the acquisition by large producers is impeded by the liability costs of mine closure and reclamation.Editor's Note: The Special Report, World Gold Mine Production, 1998 2002 is available for purchase from The Gold Institute, Ste. 240, 1112 16th St., NW, Washington, DC 20036, (202) 835-0185, fax (202) 835-0155. Golden Calf (12/18/99; 23:10:05MDT - Msg ID:21297) Trying to be helpful http://www.sightings.com/politics5/golan.htmTedw....Zionist propaganda.....?Will the outcome effect gold....?Some people just like use labels, it makes them feel better....never fully understood why. Black Blade (12/18/99; 23:05:59MDT - Msg ID:21296) A little something to think about tonight befroe you go to bed.....sweet dreams. With 13 more days to go......................Y2k would be the perfect time for terrorism, cyber-terrorism, and warfare. And while the highly over-valued US equities markets are most vulnerable to really bad news. While the US authorities are distracted by computer failures, terrorist activities, possible breakdown of the petroleum production, refining, and distribution systems, etc., etc., etc. those around the world who are unfriendly towards US interests may take advantage. The US military and law enforcement are spread out, outnumbered and concerned about their own. If mayhem should break out, then would it not seem that y2k with all it's uncertainty be the best time to strike? Saddam has created some increased volatility in the petroleum markets by not "playing ball" with the UN. Mainland China could move on Taiwan, N. Korea has very little to lose by moving on S. Korea while it's people suffer with famine, Drug-cartel and marxist paramilitary could move in force on Bogota and surrounding regions, and India and Pakistan could blow up anytime. The following article shows that one alledged terrorist was caught entering the US recently (out of how many?), 13 more in Jordan (out of how many?), and the list goes on and on. It could be just a number of coincidences in a very visible volatile world that we live in. The Seattle Space Needle may have been a target. SEATTLE (MSNBC.com) -- A man arrested earlier this week as he attempted to enter Washington state from Canada was carrying more than 200 pounds of explosive materials and sophisticated timing devices, sources told NBC News today. Authorities said they fear the man was involved in planning millennial-related terrorism and that an unknown number of accomplices may already have slipped into the country. A top counterterrorism official in Washington, who spoke on condition of anonymity, called the arrest "a very big deal." Fled when asked to open trunk. The 28-year-old suspect, who was carrying a Canadian passport and two Canadian driver's licenses, was taken by Lear jet from the Clallam County Jail to the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport today in advance of an expected appearance in U.S. District Court in Seattle in the afternoon. So far, he has been charged by the U.S. Customs Service with misrepresentation and failure to be inspected. The French-speaking man, who authorities believe to be of Algerian descent, was arrested Tuesday as he was attempting to enter the United States at Port Angeles after taking a car ferry from Victoria, British Columbia. When U.S. Customs agents asked him to open the trunk on his rented car, he fled on foot. He was taken into custody several hours later, about five blocks from the ferry terminal. Authorities found 200 pounds of a white substance in the trunk that was subsequently identified as a nitrate compound, two bottles of flammable liquid and four black boxes containing "very sophisticated timing devices" made of circuit boards and Casio digital watches, sources said. Authorities say the explosive powder is similar in composition to the ingredients used in the fertilizer bomb used in the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City. The use of a Casio watch as a bombing timer was pioneered by Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing and a follower of Saudi-born Osama bin Laden, the fugitive financier of terrorism. Booked into motel near Space Needle Meanwhile, The Seattle Times, quoting unidentified law enforcement sources, reported that the French-speaking man was booked into the Best Western Loyal Motor Inn on Eighth Avenue, within blocks of the Space Needle. A man who answered the phone at the motel declined to confirm the man had a reservation, referring a caller to the U.S. Customs Service. Asked if authorities suspected that the popular tourist attraction, site of an annual New Year's fireworks show that draws thousands of revelers, was the target of a terrorist attack, one source told the newspaper, "Obviously, it's an inference you can draw." However, other law enforcement sources quoted by the Times said the man also was carrying maps and tourist brochures for Washington, Oregon and California. The man carried a Canadian passport with the name Benni Noris, and a Canadian driver's license with another name, Mario Roig, giving an address in Montreal, sources told NBC. They said, however, that he is believed to an Algerian. Linked to jihad group? Coincidentally, Montreal police on Thursday held a news conference to announce that they had arrested 11 members of the city's Algerian community who are members of an international crime ring that uses proceeds from its activities to fund the jihad -- the Muslim holy war -- in various countries. Andre Poirier, a spokesman for the department, told MSNBC today that investigators had been contacted by U.S. authorities to see if the man arrested in Port Angeles was linked to the group. "We are looking to see if there is any link between those persons who have been arrested and that person trying to go through the border, but at this moment we are not able to determine if there is a link," he said. Authorities are on alert. U.S. authorities already are on alert for potential terrorism at millennial celebrations, both here and abroad. Already this month, authorities have arrested alleged terrorists in California and Florida for allegedly plotting to blow up public facilities in connection with the change of the millennium. Two men who were members of a militia organization were arrested Dec. 3 in Sacramento, Calif., accused of plotting to bomb a suburban propane-storage tank, allegedly in hopes of causing the imposition of martial law as a first step in inspiring a revolution against the U.S. government. They currently await trial. In Florida, another militia leader was arrested Dec. 8 and charged with plotting to steal explosives to blow up transmission towers and power lines. A federal grand jury indicted Donald Beauregard, 31, on six charges of conspiracy, providing support or resources to commit terrorist acts, and four weapons violations. 13 arrested in Jordan. Law enforcement sources quoted by Reuters said the man had apparently been staying in Vancouver for about a month. The Seattle Times reported that the man had been identified, but that his identity was being withheld by authorities. One law enforcement official said the case was getting much attention in light of this week's arrest in Jordan of 13 people believed to be planning to carry out New Year's related "terrorist" operations in the kingdom. The suspects arrested in Jordan reportedly had links to bin Laden, whom the United States has accused of masterminding the bombings of two U.S. embassies in East Africa last year. "That case is certainly in the backs of the minds of a lot of investigators," the official said. "All this bin Laden-Y2K is scaring people." Last weekend the United States warned its citizens traveling abroad through the start of the New Year and the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan to exercise caution, citing "credible information that terrorists are planning attacks." Black Blade (toshin Kuro Kosai): ...........Then again maybe Australia will attack New Zealand to break their sheep monopoly and steal their kiwis :-) lamprey_65 (12/18/99; 22:19:40MDT - Msg ID:21295) The "Good Old (GOLD) Days" http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=221449451 A reproduction of a $10,000 Gold Certificate.Will we ever see them again?Lamprey Peter Asher (12/18/99; 21:31:46MDT - Msg ID:21294) Hey, Dragonfly Nice to hear from you. Thanks! I'm glad the splitting went well. If you run out of trees, come on up to our place. Got plenty of Broadleaf Maple and Alder. I'll drop 'em, we both cut, you split and stack 1/3 and take the rest.Yeah, I know it's too far away, but it's a nice fantasy. Canuck (12/18/99; 21:21:32MDT - Msg ID:21293) Number Six Fort Knox doesn't have 8,500 tonnes of gold.How are you, thanks for responding. I have more questions that I'll send later. Back to above ...Here's a thought I propose to you and everyone. England has 715 tonnes, less sold , less committed. Canada, my homeland,brave, lost souls had a 100 or two tonnes and we have sold most (I think our reserve is at 1700 grams now), the Swiss have 1,300 tonnes (big player), the Dutch have or deemed to have somewhere between 300-600 tonnes, Kuwait sold a big 79 tonnes, rumoured to be a majority stake and Joe Country has 300 tonnes and Jane Country has 400 tonnes, blah, blah, blah.Here's the question, doesn't it seem to be disproportionatethat the USA has 8,500 tonnes????? JLV (12/18/99; 21:20:01MDT - Msg ID:21292) (No Subject) Y2k Y2k status reporting by Mnternational Monitoring.http://www.intl-monitoring.com/news.htm dragonfly (12/18/99; 21:13:06MDT - Msg ID:21291) Peter Asher ( msg id 21281 ) Nice reasoning. The last bit about 'hanging together' or 'hanging separately' recalls the post about the Farmer problem and the Pogo quote about finding the enemy. Had an old friend, now long gone, who was a hard money man and had been a 'boomer' (die sinker) by trade. He was a sit-down striker in the 30's up in Flint, and over the years became wealthy buying GM stock. Old Frank told some funny stories about trying to convince his fellow union members that if they would just individually buy stock each paycheck then pretty soon they would have a different kind of clout. Imagine workers on the board of directors he said. They couldn't. Same thing probably applies to gold. Just have to simply buy it. The maul / wood-splitting tip was very helpful. Works great. Thanks again.dragonfly Matrix (12/18/99; 21:11:48MDT - Msg ID:21290) For those of you outside matrix Taken from the book of revelations , Chapter 3 vs 17 to 19"....17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent...."This is for those of you outside the Matrix, who can see and believe what others around them cannot. Canuck (12/18/99; 21:08:50MDT - Msg ID:21289) Vox : RTC's I'm in the telephony/voicemail/IVR world.RTC's are cool if they can count 99 to 00. The 'patches' I install is a very small (300k) file (bootable) that allows a RTC to indeed count from 99 to 00. The actual file tells the RTC to 'count' from 99 to 100; the 1 from 100 is then dropped/ignored. The dilema as I understand it, is that RTC's, by default, can't count past 99. Number Six (12/18/99; 21:05:58MDT - Msg ID:21288) Do we have any gold in Fort Knox or not??? http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0022aY Check out this link...[snip]No. Pure and simple. And if there is any there it does not belong to the American Public. And here's why: Firstly we are, as the post says, talking about only $70b. These kinds of amounts of money do not take long to accumulate, even back in the 1920s. (Just as an example the US Debt in 1913 when the Federal Reserve was set up, by 1920s it was $24b). To understand gold and the American monetory policy, it is crucial to understand the Federal Reserve. In 1913 when the Federal Reserve was set up it was granted, as an unregulated, unaccountable, unauditable, non-tax paying completely private instituion, the exclusive monoploy to issue its own "bank" note which would be used as the US currency (can you believe that). Their note was to be backed by (amongst other things) the US gold reserves and payable to them in gold by the American Government! If you do not believe it is private then besides reading the Federal Reserve Act, or examining the 12 shareholders see Court Case proves Federal Reseve's Status as a Private Instituion "Congressman Louis T. McFadden served twelve years as Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency. On June 10, 1932, in the midst of the Great Depression, he addressed the House of Representatives, asking for investigations of criminal conspiracy to establish the privately owned 'Federal Reserve System'. He requested impeachment of Federal officers who had violated oaths of office both in establishing and directing the Federal Reserve -- imploring Congress to investigate an incredible scope of overt criminal acts by the Federal Reserve Board and Federal Reserve Banks. He refers to crimes including Broad, ongoing subversion of democracy; Conspiracy to remove the gold behind our currency to the foreign principals of these banks; the Financing of foreign military expansion in Germany and Japan with the very same gold removed from our public reserves [evidently, in preparation for WWII]; And conspiracy to bring about the Depression itself. " His speech is a seminal piece of work and should be required reading for all to understand why the Constituional Framers (who made Central Banks like the Federal Reserve unconstituional), Jefferson, Jackson and others upto McFadden have all warned against such Central Banks. Another seminal piece of work that must be also read is The Comming Battle written in 1899 which describes from the congressional record and other source documents the games that the European Banker Families have played since America's Declaration of Independence and their three prior attempts to the Federal Reserve to establish Central Banks. I have given some exerpts in Has any one else.... Read them. They will blow your mind away (and it may never be the same). They make Tom Clancy novels look like kindergarten stories. I have quoted below some important parts of McFadden's speech to give you a summary of the Federal Reserve and its control over the gold reserves. The complete speech (from the Congressional Record) is at: McFadden Speech to House of Representatives (there is some editorial at the beginning of the above web page which you can skip if you wish). ------- EXERPTS FOLLOW ---------Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a government board*, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt. The depredations and iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks acting together have cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the People of the United States; has bankrupted itself, and has practically bankrupted our government. [*Although Mr. McFadden refers to the Federal Reserve Board as 'a government board', the chairman and seven board members are appointed by the President (rather than election). The board altogether is not bound either to take or comply with directives from traditional democratic channels. This has also been established in the court case sited above] It has done this through the defects of the law under which it operates, through the maladministration of that law by the Federal Reserve Board, and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it. (snip) Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are United States Government institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders. In that dark crew of financial pirates there are those who would cut a man's throat to get a dollar out of his pocket; there are those who send money into states to buy votes to control our legislation; and there are those who maintain an international propaganda for the purpose of deceiving us and of wheedling us into the granting of new concessions which will permit them to cover up their past misdeeds, and set again their gigantic train of crime. Those 12 private credit monopolies were deceitfully and disloyally foisted upon this country by bankers who came here from Europe and who repaid us for our hospitality by undermining our American institutions. Those bankers took money out of this country to finance Japan in a war against Russia. They created a reign of terror in Russia with our money in order to help that war along. They instigated the separate peace with Germany and Russia, and thus drove a wedge between the allies in the World War. (snip) It was, therefore, on the advice of others that the iniquitous Federal Reserve Act -- the death warrant of American Liberty --became law in his [President Woodrow Wilson's] administration. In 1912, the National Monetary Association, under the chairmanship of the late Senator Nelson W. Aldrich, made a report and presented a vicious bill called The National Reserve Association Bill. This bill is usually spoken of as The Aldrich Bill. Senator Aldrich did not write the Aldrich Bill. He was the tool of European-born bankers who for nearly 20 years had been scheming to set up a central bank in this country, and who in 1912 had spent and were continuing to spend vast sums of money to accomplish their purpose. The Aldrich Bill was condemned in the platform upon which Theodore Roosevelt was nominated in the year 1912; and in the same year --when Woodrow Wilson was nominated -- the Democratic platform, as adopted at the Baltimore Convention, expressly stated: "We are opposed to the Aldrich plan for a central bank. This was plain language. The men who ruled the Democratic Party then promised the people that if they were returned to power, there would be no central bank established here while they held the reins of power. Thirteen months later, that promise was broken; and the Wilson administration, under the tutelage of those sinister Wall Street figures who stood behind Colonel House, established here in our free country the worm-eaten, monarchical institution of the "King's Bank," to control us from the top downward, and to shackle us from the cradle to the grave. The Federal Reserve Act destroyed our old and characteristic way of doing business: It discriminated against our one-name commercial paper -- the finest in the world; it set up the antiquated two-name paper which is the present curse of this country, and which has wrecked every country which has ever given it scope: It fastened down upon this country the very tyranny from which the framers of the Constitution sought to save us. One of the greatest battles for the preservation of this Republic was fought out here in [President] Jackson's day, when the Second Bank of the United Sates -- which was founded upon the same false principles as those which are exemplified in the Federal Reserve Act -- was hurled out of existence. [You can read about the whole episode in The Comming Battle. Jackon's veto message, which destroyed the Second Bank of the United States can be read at Andrew Jackson's Veto Message] After the downfall of the Second Bank of the United Sates in 1837, the country was warned against the dangers that might ensue if the predatory interests, after being cast out, should come back in disguise and unite themselves to the Executive, and through him acquire control of the government. That is what the predatory interests did when they came back in the livery of hypocrisy, and under false pretenses, obtained the passage of the Federal Reserve Act. (snip) It has been said that the draftsman who was employed to write the text of the Federal Reserve Bill used the text of the Aldrich Bill for his purpose. It has been said that the language of the Aldrich Bill was used because the Aldrich Bill had been drawn up by expert lawyers, and seemed to be appropriate. It was indeed drawn up by lawyers. The Aldrich Bill was created by acceptance bankers of European origin in New York City. It was a copy, and in general, a translation of the Reischbank, and other European central banks. (snip) Not all of the Democratic members of the Sixty-third Congress voted for this great deception. Some of them remembered the teachings of Jefferson. Senator Henry Cabot Lodge wrote as follows: 'The bill, as it stands, seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency.' In the 18 years which have passed since Senator Lodge wrote that letter of warning, the government is in the banking business as never before. Against its will it has been made the backer of swindlers in all parts of the world. Through the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks the riffraff of every country is operating on the public credit of the United States Government. Meanwhile, and on account of it, we ourselves are in the midst of the greatest depression we have ever known. (snip) A few days before the Federal Reserve Act was passed, Sen. Elihu Root denounced the Federal Reserve Bill as an outrage on our liberties; and made the following prediction: 'Long before we wake up from our dreams of prosperity through an inflated currency, our gold will have vanished, and no rate of interest will tempt it to return.' If ever a prophecy came true, that one did. It was impossible however, for those luminous and instructed thinkers to control the course of events. The Federal Reserve Act became law the day before Christmas Eve in the year 1913. And shortly afterwards, the German international bankers, Kuhn, Loeb & Co., sent one of their partners here to run it. In 1913, when the Federal Reserve Bill was submitted to the Democratic caucus, there was a discussion in regard to the form the proposed paper currency should take. The proponents of the Federal Reserve Act, in their determination to create a new kind of paper money, had not needed to go outside of the Aldrich Bill for a model. By the terms of the Aldrich bill, bank notes were to be issued by the National Reserve Association, and were to be secured partly by gold and partly by circulating evidences of debt. The first draft of the Federal Reserve Bill presented the same general plan, that is, for bank notes as opposed to government notes -- but with certain differences of regulation. When the provision for the issuance of Federal Reserve Notes was placed before President Wilson, he approved of it. But other Democrats were more mindful of Democratic principles; and a great protest greeted the plan. Foremost amongst those who denounced it was William Jennings Bryan, the Secretary of State. Bryan wished to have the Federal Reserve Notes issued as government obligations. President Wilson had an interview with him, and found him adamant. At the conclusion of the interview, Bryan left with the understanding that he would resign if the notes were made bank notes. The President then sent for his Secretary, and explained the matter to him. Mr. Tumulty went to see Bryan, and Bryan took from his library shelves a book containing all the Democratic platforms, and read extracts from them bearing on the matter of the public currency. Returning to the President, Mr. Tumulty told him what had happened, and ventured the opinion that Mr. Bryan was right, and that Mr. Wilson was wrong. The President then asked Mr. Tumulty to show him where the Democratic Party in its national platforms had ever taken the view indicated by Bryan. [Evidently the President was unapprised even of the basic party position on the issue.] Mr. Tumulty gave him the book, which he had brought from Bryan's house, and the President read very carefully plank after plank on the currency. He then said, "I am convinced there is a great deal in what Mr. Bryan says," and thereupon it was arranged that Mr. Tumulty should see the proponents of the Federal Reserve Bill, in an effort to bring about an adjustment of the matter. The remainder of this story may by be told in the words of Senator Glass: The only other feature of the currency bill around which a conflict raged at this time was the note-issue provision. Long before I knew it, the President was desperately worried over it. Some of his advisers told him Mr. Bryan could not be induced to give his support to any bill that did not provide for a 'Government Note.' There was in the Senate and House a large Bryan following, which, united with a naturally adversary party vote, could prevent legislation. Certain overconfident gentlemen proffered their services in the task of 'managing Bryan.' They did not budge him. When a decision could no longer be postponed, the President summoned me to the White House to say he wanted Federal Reserve Notes to be 'obligations of the United States.' I was for an instant speechless. With all the earnestness of my being I remonstrated, pointing out the unscientific nature of such a thing, as well as the evident inconsistency of it. [Entirely unqualified.] There is not, in truth [unqualified] any government obligation here, Mr. President, I exclaimed. It would be a pretense on its face. Was there ever a government note based primarily on the property of banking institutions? Was there ever a government issue, not one dollar of which could be put out except by demand of a bank? The suggested government obligation is so remote it could never be discerned, I concluded, out of breath. 'Exactly so, Glass,' earnestly said the President. 'Every word you say is true. The government liability is a mere thought. And so, if we can hold to the substance of the thing and give the other fellow the shadow, why not do it, if thereby we can save our bill?' [an incredible case of confusion.] SHADOW AND SUBSTANCE! One can see from this HOW LITTLE President Wilson knew about banking. Unknowingly, he gave the substance to the international banker, and the shadow to the common man. Thus was Bryan circumvented in his efforts to uphold the Democratic doctrine of the rights of the people. Thus the "unscientific blur" upon the bill was perpetrated. The "unscientific blur" however, was the fact that the United States Government, by the terms of Bryan's edict, was obliged to assume as an obligation, WHATEVER currency was issued! Mr. Bryan was right when he insisted that the United States should preserve its sovereignty over the public currency. The "unscientific blur" was the nature of the currency itself, a nature which makes it unfit to be assumed as an obligation of the United States Government! It is the worst currency, and the most dangerous this country has ever known. When the proponents of the act saw that Democratic doctrine would not permit to let the proposed banks issue the new currency as bank notes, they should have stopped at that. They should not have foisted that kind of currency, namely an asset currency, on the United States Government. They should not have made the government liable on private debts of individuals and corporations; and least of all, on the private debts of foreigners." (snip) Before the Senate Banking and Currency Committee, while the Federal Reserve Bill was under discussion, Mr. Crozier, of Cincinnati, said: "In other words, the imperial power of elasticity of the public currency is wielded exclusively by these central corporations owned by the banks. This is a life and death power over ALL local banks AND ALL BUSINESS. It can be used to create or destroy prosperity, to ward off or cause stringencies or panics. By making money artificially scarce, interest rates throughout the country can be arbitrarily raised -- and the bank tax on all business, and cost of living, increased for the profit of the banks owning these regional, central banks -- and without the slightest benefit to the people. These 12 corporations together cover the whole country, and monopolize and use for private gain EVERY dollar of the public currency -- and all public revenues of the United States. NOT A DOLLAR can be put into circulation among the people, by their government, without the consent of, AND ON TERMS FIXED BY, these 12 private money trusts. In defiance of this, and all other warnings, the proponents of the Federal Reserve Act created [vested this power in] the 12 private credit corporations, and gave them an absolute monopoly of the currency of the United States -- not of Federal Reserve Notes alone, but of all the currency... the Federal Reserve Act providing ways by means of which the gold and general currency in the hands of the American people could be obtained by the Federal Reserve Banks in exchange for Federal Reserve Notes -- which are not money... but merely promises to pay money. (snip) Mr. Chairman, if Dynamit Nobel of Germany wishes to sell dynamite to Japan to use in Manchuria or elsewhere, it can draw its bill against its Japanese customers in dollars, and send that bill to the nefarious open discount market in New York City, where the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks will buy it and use it as collateral for a new issue of Federal Reserve Notes -- while at the same time the Federal Reserve Board will be helping Dynamit Nobel by stuffing its stock into the United States banking system. Why should we send our representatives to the disarmament conference at Geneva while the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks are making our government pay Japanese debts to German munitions makers? [A prelude to W.W.II.] (snip) Why should the public credit of the United States Government and likewise money belonging to our National Bank depositors be used to support... WHY should our National Bank depositors and our government be forced TO FINANCE THE MUNITION FACTORIES OF GERMANY AND SOVIET RUSSIA? Mr. Chairman, if a German in Germany wishes to sell wheelbarrows to another German, he can draw a bill in dollars and get the money out of the Federal Reserve Banks before an American farmer could explain his request for a loan to move his crop to market. In Germany, when credit instruments are being given, the creditors say, "See you, it must be of a kind that I can cash at the Reserve." Other foreigners feel the same way. The Reserve to which these gentry refer is our reserve which, as you know, is entirely made up of money belonging to American bank depositors. I think foreigners should cash their own trade paper and not send it over here to bankers who use it to fish cash out of the pockets of the American people. Mr. Chairman, there is nothing like the Federal Reserve pool of confiscated bank deposits in the world. It is a public trough of American wealth in which foreigners claim rights equal to or greater than those of Americans. The Federal Reserve Banks are agents of the foreign central banks. They use our bank depositors' money for the benefit of their foreign principals. They barter the public credit of the United States Government, and hire it out to foreigners at a profit to themselves. (snip) Mr. Chairman, when you hold a $10 Federal Reserve Note in your hand, you are holding a piece of paper which sooner or later is going to cost the United States Government $10 in gold -- unless the government is obliged to give up the gold standard. (snip) Immense sums belonging to our national bank depositors have been given to Germany on no collateral security whatever. The Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks have issued United States currency on mere finance drafts drawn by Germans. Billions upon billions of our money has been pumped into Germany --and money is still being pumped into Germany by the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. [prelude to W.W.II] Her worthless paper is still being negotiated here and renewed here on the public credit of the United States Government, and at the expense of the American people. On April 27, 1932, the Federal Reserve outfit sent $750,000 belonging to American bank depositors, in gold, to Germany. A week later, another $300,000 in gold was shipped to Germany in the same way. About the middle of May, $12,000,000 in gold was shipped to Germany by the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. Almost every week, there is a shipment of gold to Germany. [Although it is obvious removal of gold from the public reserves would preclude redeeming these obligations [whether or not this gold was removed to foreign principals of the Federal Reserve Banks], nevertheless, no credible party has ever argued the Federal Reserve made any bona fide attempt to preserve its capability to redeem their paper as they were obligated to, while in fact they purported to be charged with overseeing the sanctity of the public reserves. In fact, the 'Federal Reserve' was inherently directly involved in every such removal of gold reserves, as the 'Federal Reserve Act' itself set up this conglomerate of 12 private banking institutions as direct agent of gold disbursements. Mere paper issued by the 'Federal Reserve' itself was used to move our former public gold reserves to serve foreign objectives.] (snip) The magnitude of the acceptance racket, as it has been developed by the Federal Reserve Banks, their foreign correspondents, and the predatory European-born bankers who set up the Federal Reserve institution here and taught our own brand of pirates how to loot the people... the magnitude of this racket is estimated to be in the neighborhood of $9,000,000,000 [nine billion dollars] a year. In the past ten years, it is said to have amounted to $90,000,000,000 [ninety billion]. (snip) Mr. Speaker, on the 13th of January of this year, I addressed the House on the subject of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. In the course of my remarks, I made the following statement: "In 1928 [year prior to stock market crash], the member banks of the Federal Reserve System borrowed $60,593,690,000 from the Federal Reserve Banks on their 15-day promissory notes. Think of it! Sixty billion dollars payable upon demand in gold in the course of one single year! The actual payment of such obligations calls for six times as much monetary gold as there is in the entire world. Such transactions represent a grant in the course of one single year of about $7,000,000 to every member bank of the Federal Reserve System. (snip) Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its power. But the truth is that the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the government of the United States. It controls everything here; and it controls our foreign relations. It makes or breaks governments at will. No man, and no body of men, is more entrenched in power than the arrogant credit monopoly which operates the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. These evil-doers have robbed this country of more than enough money to pay the national debt. What the National Government has permitted the Federal Reserve Board to steal from the people should now be restored to the people. The people have a valid claim against the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. If that claim is enforced, Americans will not need to stand in breadlines. Homes will be saved. Families will be kept. What is needed here is a return to the Constitution of the United States. The old struggle that was fought out here in Jackson's day must be fought over again. The Federal Reserve Act should be repealed; and the Federal Reserve Banks -- having violated their charters -- should be liquidated immediately. -- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), December 18, 1999. Peter Asher (12/18/99; 21:05:17MDT - Msg ID:21287) ALL U.S. PORTS PUT ON HIGH ALERT http://www.drudgereport.com/flash.htm The U.S. Customs Service has placed all 301 ports of entry into the United States on high alert following the arrest of an Alergian in Washington state. Canuck (12/18/99; 20:51:30MDT - Msg ID:21286) Hlime #21254 'Sir Harry',Loved your message. I've spent 6 months doing the wood, heat, water, food and necessity thing. In the last couple of months I've gathered the whiskey, vodka, coffee and cigarette thing. Now, I'll be warm and fed and not bored.The wife has been buying into the Y2K thing big time in the last 60 days; she's been staching too. I tested her the other day, "...dear, we really should get a good first aid kit and medicine, ...you know, aspirin, and the stuff you use ...you know..". She came home with $300 worth of first aid kits and aspirin and vitamins and echinacea(sp) and gingko beluga and st. john's wort and 800 miles of toilet paper; she's crazy but I love her.When Y2K hits, my contribution to the city will be free craping over at my place.Me no likey cold cabin either. Number Six (12/18/99; 20:29:04MDT - Msg ID:21285) GFD - where did it go...? Allegedly Germany - I posted the Turk article over on Timebomb 2000 and got a lot of interesting replies - I'll post the link and some snippets in a little while... GFD (12/18/99; 19:40:19MDT - Msg ID:21284) So Where Did Go? The Gold, that is..From Fort Knox, that is..That Lyndon Dumped, that is..If LBJ actually did dump 8000 metric tonnes of the US treasury where did it all wind up?? Or, given that gold tends to stay in vaults, who owns it?Or way more importantly, who leased it? Or even way more importantly than that, who bought 10,000 tonnes from those lessors?And why is it that I keep getting this sneeky peeky idea that someone bought a whole lot of gold for the US Treasury in recent times, or the US Fed.If you were Al and you knew all of this and you knew that hedge funds were dumping gold what would you do? Especially if you were a dyed in the wool bug?FWIW (which may not be a lot...) Al Fulchino (12/18/99; 19:22:08MDT - Msg ID:21283) Gasoline Rebates :FWIW Got a call from a friend/competitor yesterday. He called to see if Mobil had stopped its rebate that rewards for increases in volume. "No," said I, "as a matter of fact I know they are in place until at least Jan 31.00." He related that Shell/Texaco had suddenly stopped their rebate program. I can only think of three reasons this would happen.a) Supplier wishes to make more money off of its dealers.b) Supplier wishes to make profits smaller for its dealers, who may then take a walk like so many EXXON dealers did a few years back. Thus, Oil Company can cheaply take stations.c) They know there is NO reason to use a rebate program for what it is intended. To INCREASE market share. Oil shortage on the way??? If so, then why try to increase market share.FWIW PH in LA (12/18/99; 18:14:17MDT - Msg ID:21282) Questions About America's Gold On several occasions going back as far as one year ago, the subject of the gold in Fort Knox has been raised here. At the same time that GATA is demanding a formal public audit of America's gold reserves, James Turk proclaims that "We have a Right to Know (about America's gold reserves)". <http://www.fgmr.com/right2know.htm>As long ago as July 15, 1975 Dr. Peter Beter, a Washington insider who published a series of Audio Tapes that were widely heard on radio at that time, also voiced credible allegations that the gold in Fort Knox had been stolen. <http://www.l0pht.com/pub/tezcat/Beter/Beter02.txt> A complete index of all the Beter material can be found at: <http://www.l0pht.com/pub/tezcat/Beter/> There is much material on the Fort Knox gold, even though some of Beter's other questions and allegations seem a little far-fetched from our present vantage point in time.In any case, in his 2nd audio tape Beter mentions: "Why was it a secret? After all, the law requires an annual physical inventory of the nation's gold reserves. This law has been generally circumvented and ignored..."James Turk, in his recent commentary "We have a Right to Know" (cited above)states that it would be expected that audits of the gold held by the federal government be carried out periodically, as is the case with other federal assets. Yet, according to Turk, US Treasury Secretary Summers has so far refused to so much as comment on the matter, even when it was brought to his attention by a member of Congress. The whole question of the nation's gold reserves, where they are stored, and whether they belong to the Federal Reserve or to the Treasury seems to be an area that is not well-understood. In the popular mythos, it is widely believed that America's gold is stored in Fort Knox, as it almost certainly was at one time. Dr. Beter thought it had been moved, probably to bank vaults in New York state. Certainly, it is well known (confirmed by FOA) that prior to 1971, large quantities of gold were shipped out of the country as per demands by the London Gold Pool. James Turk details the theory of a scheme-gone-bad on the part of President Lyndon Johnson in his commentary "Thinking the Unthinkable" <http://www.fgmr.com/unthinkable.htm>, and reports have long circulated on the internet of sworn statements by retired military personnel that large military shipments of gold were made to France at about this same time. It may seem unlikely to some that thousands of tons of gold are still housed in Fort Knox, but it does not seem to be something that the US Treasury Department is prepared to admit. Why?Reginald Howe has publically wondered if the Federal Reserve has been selling and/or leasing gold and/or gold options. Would the Federal Reserve have the legal right to do such a thing? GATA has cited their right to do so "in the course of normal business deals" but claims that this would not include doing so to "bail out" parties to deals gone (or about to go) bad. FOA has commented here that such action on the part of the Federal Reserve is extremely unlikely inasmuch as there are too many people with sufficient resources at their command who would like nothing more than to expose such malfeasance on the part of the Fed for their own reasons.Yet the questions refuse to die: Are America's gold reserves still intact? Are they held in any central location that would lend itself to a formal public audit, whether or not such an audit were required by law? Could the Freedom of Information Act somehow be used to clarify just who does own America's Gold Reserves? After all, it is often enough pointed out that the Federal Reserve is a privately-held corporate entity separate from the Federal Government and the US Treasury. Which one of them takes precedence in ownership of America's gold? Could an audit of America's gold reserves be made at all? It seems like the real problem would be in following the accounting trail to determine who actually owns the gold, more than one of sampling, assaying and counting bars of gold held in a central location, although this would also have to be done at the same time.A call for the public audit of America's gold reserves would amount to little more than a grandstanding public relations coup unless the question of who actually owns the gold is addressed at the same time. Perhaps the Freedom of Information act could be brought to bear on this question. Certainly, a considerable amount of professional expertise and/or legal background would be needed just to raise the issue in a credible manner to the proper authorities. In recent private correspondence to me, Reginald Howe, proprietor of the Golden Sextant website <http://www.goldensextant.com/> commented: "As to whether the over 8000 metric tons that should be there actually is, I have no strong opinion. However, there are enough suspicions floating around that I would think an audit would be a good idea just to clear the air. Nor do I see any reason to think that an audit would be impracticable or unduly difficult. Actually, it should be pretty simple. In this connection, it would be interesting to know how the EMU or IMF handle the question of audits."FOA, do you or Another know how the Europeans handle the matter of formal audits of gold reserves? How do other governments assure their citizens that a nation's gold reserves are indeed intact and safe?All these questions will take center stage the moment the price of gold rises and the dollar comes under attack as the world's currency in light of the role played by the gold backing of the euro. In the meantime, they seem especially relevant to forward-looking thinkers here at USAGold. The truth is that as citizens, we do have a right to know. Why do we even have to ask? Peter Asher (12/18/99; 17:35:52MDT - Msg ID:21281) RossL, Marius, Town Crier Pardon the inadvertent pun, but using SUV's as an analogy for commodity speculation is comparing apples to oranges.A commodity is a raw or basic refined materiel used and/or consumed in the production/consumption of goods. Every commodity is available form multiple sources and all those sources deliver an identical, or very similar, product. Those sources compete predominantly by price. An SUV is a manufactured product that competes, (even depends on the fact of a sale) with broadly similar others. Price is only one of a multitude of factors in an equation composed of size, shape, style, power, handling and comfort. This activity may create a profit or loss, and that is in fact speculated on by a device known as The Stock Market.So, to move on to the subject per se, which I believe is; how paper speculation comes to control the price of a commodity rather than supply and demand. As this phenomena is most pronounced in our core subject, Gold, that commodity serves best to peruse this controversial activity.When a speculator writes/creates a paper futures contact he is making a commitment to deliver 100 oz. of gold at a certain time, for a certain price. He hopes to not have to fulfill that commitment by virtue of the buyer of that contract being able to purchase the 100 oz. on the open market, for less money, on the delivery date. We continue to see this becoming a self fulfilling prophecy by the quantity of paper contacts written, creating a perceived supply glut in the market.The thing is though, that nobody is forced to sell their gold at any particular price. The market place effectively succumbs to this paper contract influence and capitulates to the financial or physical needs at hand. What would happen if Monday morning every holder of physical gold said "No way, you want my metal, you pay me $1000 per 0z.!" I assure you that the physical market would control the paper one quite throughly. That this does not occur is perhaps as much a matter of market place momentum as it is the need of gold holders for cash money. Perhaps it is as simple as: Since they are not willing to "Hang together." they all "Hang separately." HLime (12/18/99; 17:28:45MDT - Msg ID:21280) RossL Yes tundra flowers are 55 gal drums. They come in allcolours and from a distance they will look like a patchof flowers. Greenie meanie tree hughers hate em.TPTB = the powers that be.Harry barnacle bill (12/18/99; 16:49:14MDT - Msg ID:21279) How safe is gold? http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/tools/post.html Your home will be the first place they will look for gold.I live in Minnesota; and the Canadian border isn't thatfar away. I buried my gold in Canada, then I told everyoneI've been telling to buy gold, what I did. Good Luck!Barnacle Bill Netking (12/18/99; 16:45:59MDT - Msg ID:21278) Y2K from "12,000 YEARS OF ELLIOTT WAVES" 12,000 YEARS OF ELLIOTT WAVES (Marion Butler,Joseph Miller & Daan Joubert)Excerpt; "...In our considered opinion, Y2K will most likely turn out to be one of the biggest problems civilization has faced since thebeginning of recorded history on a global scale. It will likely be the trigger, if another is needed, that could propel theworld into a chaotic and violent bear market worthy of the previous Grand Super Cycle (1776-1998) and X-Wave(1000-2000) bull market it will correct. If the problems and disruptions Y2K can inflict on humankind turn out to beanywhere near as bad as the pessimists predict, and this trouble is piled on top of a world economy and world stockmarkets already in trouble and headed lower, we can see the negative ramifications. It will pay prudent individuals tomonitor both Y2K and the current stock market developments closely. People who live through the next few yearswithout taking reasonable precautions will fare much worse than those that do..." RossL (12/18/99; 15:37:51MDT - Msg ID:21277) AllanC - How safe is gold Allan - it's not safe if your neighbors know about it! Al Fulchino (12/18/99; 15:17:06MDT - Msg ID:21276) What is gold? USA GOLD Forum is by my definition a place to carry on and learn all there is to know about gold. But what is this thing we call gold? Is it simply a precious and unique metal? Not to me. While I learn so much from the Aristotle's the Oro's and all the other names that I SHOULD recognize, but won't, in order to simply save time, I wonder if we shouldn't just forget about derivatives, paper gold, cabals and GATA for just a moment. Just for a moment lets take time to simply acknowledge that "real gold" is your family, your freedom, your country, your God and many other things too numerous to mention. To me the metal gold is an interesting thing, but nothing more than a tool. Look around you. What are those things you wish to protect and cherish? Those are real gold. Let's not get upset if FOA's road to $30,000 doesnt fit our timetable, or if TedW feels a certain way. See things for yourself. Noone here has ever given me reason to be mad at them for simply writing down thoughts. And it is silly to criticize anyone here just for their thoughts. Just scroll on if you don't like what you see, and leave it to the host to handle, if it becomes personal. He is pretty fair from what I can glean. In the end I "love it" when I see anyone's thoughts. I always wonder where this or that person is coming from. And I hope this wasn't preachy. I just have the sentiment if we talk someones ideas away from the table because we do not like them <aside from personal attacks>, then the discussions cease. Then where are we? Al Fulchino (12/18/99; 15:02:37MDT - Msg ID:21275) Peter A Peter, I too hope it is not "one of many". There are many stories of terrorists that have lain in waiting for years. Thank you for all your writings here and lets hope your west coast is as safe as my east coast. -Al Al Fulchino (12/18/99; 14:58:15MDT - Msg ID:21274) tedw and predictions As far as I can see, what Ted referenced is a reason to own gold. I am not sure what the ruckus is regarding his post. Do any of you here see FOA's "ROAD TO $30,000" as a leisurely walk to your riches? beesting (12/18/99; 14:45:22MDT - Msg ID:21273) msg # 21267 May truth and justice guide you in your chosen profession Sir Canamami......beesting. Canuck Gold (12/18/99; 14:32:51MDT - Msg ID:21272) RossL (12/18/99; 13:17:22MDT - Msg ID:21266) FYI. TPTB - The powers that be.CG AllanC (12/18/99; 14:18:04MDT - Msg ID:21271) How safe is gold Marius,re your message 21244Gold buried in your backyard is extremelly safe from confiscation.The next safest is your home safe, provided you haven't left a paper trail leading to it.After that, a safe deposit box, provided you can see the confiscation coming and withdraw it before all the boxes are sealed. rsjacksr (12/18/99; 13:40:57MDT - Msg ID:21270) SORRY.... GOT TO GIT RID OF AOL........ Sorry about repost. Got cut off at the knees by my (un)favorite AOL site during transmition rsjacksr (12/18/99; 13:34:32MDT - Msg ID:21269) Y2K and other related topics http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/finan.htm For what it's worth. …I don't know from where I got this.. so if I'm repeating someone else's post … I apologize.But this site has a lot of Y2k related info, including an essay on RTC (real time clocks) and a software download for checking it. Remember to check downloads for viruses FIRST. I think it's worth a look see.Also found under same linkReference web sitesThese sites are provided for information, but it is not possible to guarantee their reliability, safety or security. You should take appropriate precautions against unsafe advice, software, viruses, etc. and you are advised to seek the advice of a suitably qualified IT professional. http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/freesw.htm rsjacksr (12/18/99; 13:24:19MDT - Msg ID:21268) Y2K and other related topics http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/finan.htm For what it's worth. …Don't know where I got this.. so if I'm repeating someone else's post … I apologixeBut this site has a lot of Y2k related info, including essay on RTC (real time clocks) and a download for checking it. Remember to check downloads for viruses FIRST. I think it's worth a look see. canamami (12/18/99; 13:19:11MDT - Msg ID:21267) Further to my post#21260 Now I go on a true posting holiday. See the below Reuters article. There are also some French language Reuters articles on the Montreal ring:Montreal Police See Theft Ring Link To Guerrillas MONTREAL (Reuters) - Eleven men are awaiting trial in Canada in connection with the funding of Algerian extremist groups operating in France and other countries, police said Friday. Police said the men were arrested in September on charges related to more than 5,000 thefts over the past several months of laptop computers, cellphones and other valuable items from vehicles in downtown Montreal. Police said the men are suspected of funneling money garnered through the thefts to Islamic guerrilla groups overseas. RossL (12/18/99; 13:17:22MDT - Msg ID:21266) Sir Harry I'm from the city. Please translate. What's a "tundra flower"? A 55 gal drum?Also, What does TPTB mean? (In Sir Peter's message from last night.) tedw (12/18/99; 12:13:51MDT - Msg ID:21265) Zionist Propaganda http://www.usagold.com This is in response to TG accusation of "Zionist Propaganda"I am neither Jewish nor a Zionist. And my remarks on this forum were related to gold (see last item in my list, I waspredicting a rise in the price of Gold due to world events)You cannot make peace with the Hitlers, Saddam Husseins, and Haffaz Assads of this world. They are Psycopaths without conscience who only understand FORCE. The Wall Street Journal I referenced makes the point that the current peace attempt with Syria is like Neville Chamberlains attempt to make peace with Hitler, and I agree.All this is relevant to the price of Gold. The price of Oil is certainly relevant to the price of Gold.I think we are seeing an unfolding of events which will lead to another (would it be the fourth of fifth?) attack against Israel byArab extremists. I do not see any real statesman like AnwarSadat on the horizon. Certainly Haffiz Assad is not Anwar Sadat. Peace is not acheived by giving Hitler the Sudentanland nor is it acheived by giving away strategic military positions (the Golan Heights) to an enemy who has not had a change of heart.All this is relevant to the price of Gold. Renewed war willhave an impact on the price of oil and gold no doubt.By the way TG, are you an anti-semite? Vox (12/18/99; 11:40:58MDT - Msg ID:21264) All re The Internet "Goldmine" I received a Tech Stock Investing magazine that referred to certain Internet stocks as potential "goldmines". I find it interesting to see how deeply gold is embedded (and not in chips!) in the psyche of humanity.Be prosperous ............Vox in deserto RossL (12/18/99; 9:35:44MDT - Msg ID:21263) Speculation, Yes and No Sir Townie, I would like to make one more comment on yesterday's discussion on speculation. Thank you for taking the time to explain yourself in messages #21233 and #21234. Also thanks to Sir Marius #21244 who is thinking along the same lines as I.Now for some quotes from the messages by Sir Townie:Quote:Surely you agree that pricing of the SUV does not depend upon the presence of speculators bidding on some derivative of that whole, do you? The same holds true for the parts, all the way down to the raw materials. Unquoteand also quote:The reason the final price of the SUV isn't affected by speculators in an ORDERLY market is that the price of the whole is comprised of the sum of its parts, of which have been rightly determined. And because futures are a zero-sum market, it doesn't matter to the SUV buyer whether the component price-fluctuation gains or losses are absorbed by the part manufacturer or by a speculator as a result of the prices moving rightly higher or rightly lower from where they were a year ago.UnquoteI believe you are assuming that the SUV maker is perfectly hedged in those markets. If that is not your assumption, then you may be making an error of collectivist thinking in your evaluation of a zero-sum market. I hope that's not the case. In the real world, markets are not always orderly, and a SUV maker wishing to transfer his price risk through a futures market may not be perfectly hedged. The transfer of risk through a hedge program requires a speculator to take the opposite side and assume risk.Another quote from the messages by Sir Townie:Quote: Those of us here at The Tower are very thankful for much more than our business relations with MK at Centennial Precious Metals. We are also a steady customer, with intentions to continue acquiring gold throughout the duration of such a rare moment in a lifetime when fortune smiles broadly upon you with adequate awareness required to act upon the opportunity. Cheap gold is not an "oppportunity" to those who remain unaware of the conditions discussed at this round table as casually as one might discuss the weather. Without action, there is no opportunity...only history to reflect upon.Unquote Those among us who are buying gold coins and stocking up on canned goods are speculating! We are concerned that these items will be unavailable in the future or the prices will be higher. I don't view this speculation as being bad, although some will think it's looney. I think someone who would bet the family farm by speculating on NASDAQ stocks is nutso. That person probably thinks the same of me. The point is, speculation is an integral part of human action, and therefore of the markets. Acting on opportunity is a speculation. Without it life on this Earth might be pretty dreary and dull. Markets are not perfect. Some market players use the political process to tilt the game in their favor, resulting in un-free markets. It will take a lot of effort to undo that damage. SteveH (12/18/99; 9:35:01MDT - Msg ID:21262) ORO http://www.cftc.gov/tm/fcm/fcmdata9909.htm Check this out. What do you make of the link? canamami (12/18/99; 8:50:28MDT - Msg ID:21261) Reply to Cavan Man Thx for your kind comments of several days ago, but I fear you over-emphasize my knowledge of gold, the markets and related (and unrelated) matters. The bottom line: I'm a rank amatuer. I'd be celebrating large market gains right now if I knew what I was doing, not bemoaning losses. Now to a long posting moratorium. Happy Holidays, all. canamami (12/18/99; 8:43:16MDT - Msg ID:21260) Reply to Peter Asher This is one of the dirty unspoken secrets (actually neither secret nor unspoken, just underreported), namely that lax immigration laws and the loss of effective border control has resulted in the presence of untold terrorists and terrorist groups in North America. On various occasions, dedicated (and underpaid) border control officers have intercepted such intended projects, sometimes by gut instinct (no big background intelligence) and sometimes by plain, old dumb luck.I've always felt that the computer-glitch Y2K business was wildly overemphasized, certainly concerning North America. I still have some vague fear of Soviet or other ICBM's crashing into North America due to computer error, but I live in an "A" target, and I'm going to be here New Year's Eve, having a good time, so I guess I'm not too concerned. However, one real concern is that nut-case Islamic fundamentalist extremists will want to break up the Christian and secular millenium celebrations (remember, its only a new millenium in the Anno Domini and - new expression - Common Era world, not in the Islamic or other worlds). That's why the pyramid event was cancelled in Egypt: Islamic fundamentalists hate the pyramids (manifestation of a false religion) which draws Western tourists, and there were security concerns. silent runner (12/18/99; 8:38:07MDT - Msg ID:21259) ft knox gold mmmmm missing gold...maybe we need a "remote viewer" to check this out. Peter Asher (12/18/99; 7:57:47MDT - Msg ID:21258) From Drudge Report http://www.nypostonline.com/news/19914.htm Is this only one of many? canamami (12/18/99; 7:13:13MDT - Msg ID:21257) Fort Knox Gold Audit I just read Turk's article. Does anyone know if Fort Knox gold was used in the 1970's gold auctions? If it were, obviously an audit would have been conducted in the 1970's. Is there a US equivalent to the Auditor-General, who reports critically on the nation's books once a year? In my experience in and with the Canadian government, it is very rare that a letter is unanswered. I'm actully now somewhat intrigued by this business. My understanding is that there is in the US the OMB (executive branch accountants and economic prognosticators (sic?)) and the Congressional Budget Office. Perhaps the Congressional Budget Office should be used or approached (Republican control of the Congress) with respect to the gold audit issue. Mr Gresham (12/18/99; 7:12:36MDT - Msg ID:21256) THE Great Depression I guess this hopefully-brief note goes under the heading of the "conceits of modernism" or thinking oneself modern. (Despite the loss of 1920s-style confidence in "Progress", everyone still wants to think of himself as Modern."Maybe It's Part of the Paradigm?Wanna know why another Great Depression can't happen today? Just look at all the old photos in your history or economics textbooks, those people standing outside the banks in 1933, wanting their money back. Selling apples or pencils. Those guys in long grey coats waiting on lines for soup. (Women didn't need to eat back then.)What do you notice about those pictures? That's right: black and white. Those folks lived in black and white times, and TODAY we live in COLOR!All of our photos today are in color, so we are Truly Modern, (and we can even take them ourselves, for about $5 a set). Now, THAT'S Progress with a capital P. Or at least modern.And we even all wear more colorful clothes, to the shopping malls and on the streets. Even people on welfare today are as colorful as rich people, maybe more. Black cars -- that's another thing! Don't know what was wrong with those 1930s people that they couldn't even get a little color into their lives; they looked so, so ... Depressed!Anyway, my diatribe against our subtle unconscious biases has gone on enough. We disconnect from the similarities across historical periods because we view them through changing media that bias us. Hardly "depressed", my father had 200 acres of green woods across from his house to play in with the other kids. His mother wore dazzling flowery hats, had elegant-enough lace tablecloths and raised brilliant flowers with her other Garden Club friends. Jobs were scarce, but as many have said about those times, "We had everything but money."[oops, hear soapbox creaking...]Today, we have more "money", and more ugliness around us. Jobs are supplied, and families abandoned. I'd call that a Depression, and it certainly has been for millions outside USA, exemplified by the annual 14 million children who die of starvation and related diseases. Apparently, the opportunity of dying in full color photospreads doesn't help them very much. Doesn't fit being modern, I guess.Next week: Mr G tells why there can never be another Hitler-type fascist dictator, with Nuremberg rallies and death camps and all.NOT! Vox (12/18/99; 6:37:48MDT - Msg ID:21255) Scrappy: re Turning Computers Off For CDC There are three potential kinds of problems related to y2k.1) those that occur in applications that look forward across the end of this year (eg: mortgages and other loans; telephone and cable billings that calculate or bill for future use). These started to become common in 1970 when banks had the first 30-year mortgages being written with maturity dates beyond the end of this year.2) problems associated with the actual rollover from 1999 to 2000. And,3) problems associated with applications that look back from the year 2000 into 1999 (eg: billing and interest calculations from banks and for services).Turning computers off before the end of the year and restarting them after the rollover may avert problems with some of the Type 2 concerns. Unremediated application programs may have a problem with the rollover from 99 to 00 and fail. Many of these same programs won't have a problem if they are started up with a "00" for the year instead of a "99". Real time clocks (RTCs) may not have problems if they are just counting and may not be affected by a change from "99" to "00". Some RTCs may not know what to do with the change and may need remediation. The suggested computer shutdown is simply to avoid the failure of application programs that won't handle the date change properly.Take it easy, Vox in deserto HLime (12/18/99; 5:49:40MDT - Msg ID:21254) DGIs and GIs on this forum? Well this old Captain would of never thunk it, must be we are onlya fortnight away from closing arguments. If you are now just gettingit about Y2K then you are in a heap of trouble pardner. It is too lateto convert paper investments into cash or physical stuff, kiss em goodbye.I was in town filling up two tundra flowers at the bulk plant. The guy in front of me paid $124 to have untaxed diesel delivered. He begged thecounter guy to deliver it asap as he was only an inch or two away fromrunning out. Now $124 will only get you 100 gallons of heating oil delivered. It was -30 today and this time of year 100 gallons will onlylast two or three weeks. This DGI may freeze to death in mid January.Meanwhile I have over 20 tundra flowers in the snow bank that are fulland 15 tons of coal, Harry no likey cold cabin.I think I will fill two more up with premium gas, 110 gallons of gasmight be a good investment. Damn it is nice to live in paradise. I do nothave to kiss any govmint rings to store what I want.Happy Holidays DGIsHarry Golden Calf (12/18/99; 4:21:08MDT - Msg ID:21253) WOW tedw (12/18/99; 3:51:01MDT - Msg ID:21251)Predictions for the new CenturyThat's the good news......so what's the BAD?BTW do you have the url for the WSJ article you refer to? tg (12/18/99; 4:17:37MDT - Msg ID:21252) to TEDW please find another forum to air your Zionist propaganda. Any attempt at peace should not be mocked.Now tell us your thoughts on gold tedw (12/18/99; 3:51:01MDT - Msg ID:21251) Predictions for the new Century http://www.usagold.com There is a good article in Friday's editorial section of the Wall Street Journal entitled "The Cape and the Sword".It is about Israels "peace" with the Arabs.I predict the following events in the new Century:1)The Syrian "peace talks" are in reality Syria setting upIsrael for disadvantage for another coming war. YOU CANNOTMAKE PEACE WITH A SNAKE.2)The Arabs will again attack Israel, and to survive Israel will use nuclear weapons on the Arabs and win. 3) China (who is already showing military evidence of transferring key military personell to the region near Taiwan) will invaded conquer the Island of Formosa.4) The Chechens will be completely wiped out in Grozny,perhaps before the end of the Century.5)Civil war (primarily racial war) will erupt in the United States of America as a result of Y2k.6)Presidential elections will not be held in the year 2000.Bill Clinton will become the first American dictator.7)The "Collapse" of the Soviet Union will prove itself to be a fraud. An American Army will be trapped in Bosnia and Kosovo, near the Soviet Border.8) China and Russia continue the Communist quest for world domination. 8)Fullfillment of a vision had by George Washington at Valley Forge over 200 years ago, which culminates in the invasion of the United States of America (do a net searchfor "George Washingtons Vision')9) Price of Gold and OIl will rise as a result of the above events.************************************************************By the way, I hope Im wrong. Netking (12/18/99; 2:41:58MDT - Msg ID:21250) Crude Oil - NYMEX http://tfc-charts.w2d.com/chart/CO/M An Interesting comparison between the monthly chart (as per above) and the weekly one below; http://tfc-charts.w2d.com/chart/CO/W ORO (12/18/99; 2:35:37MDT - Msg ID:21249) TownCrier rsjacksr IMF action TownCrier (12/17/99; 16:36:43MDT - Msg ID:21217)rsjacksr (12/17/99; 13:20:11MDT - Msg ID:21214)I worked out this structure for the IMF transaction, what do you think?The IMF, acting as a bank, can issue cash in ammounts equal to booked financial assets that include country bonds and loans - and gold. Gold reserves are the only way a bank can issue cash that is not backed by debt. Raising the gold price has a tremendously positive effect in reducing indebtedness - but it will provide an inflationary boost to the "real cash" monetary base - Originally 17.5 $B in 1933, growing only at the rate of loan default. I am collecting data about this so that I can investigate its statistical history................. .. Brazil ................. . IMF ............... . Creditor Economy*Before......... -2 $B debt ......... +2$B loan...... +2$B deposit at BIS Lent to Brazil for transaction*......... .........2 $B cash ......... 7 m oz at $48=$330 M**IMF sale ........7 m oz @ $282... +2$B loan...... +2$B deposit at BIS Lent to Brazil for transaction*........ ........ -2 $B debt........ . . .2 $B cash**IMF Buys ....-2 $B debt ......... +2$B loan...... +2$B deposit at BIS Lent to Brazil for transaction*........ ....... ..2 $B cash. ....... 7 m oz at $282=$2 B*......... ......... ......... ......... (2 -0.33=1.67 $B profit booked)**IMF Deposit................ ......... +2$B loan...... . . . . +2$B deposit at BIS *at BIS ......... ......... ......... ...... 7 m oz at $282... +1.67 $B IMF deposit (gold "backed" money created)*Brazil returns*Loan from BIS**The loan on the IMF's books was provided from the member country currency deposits and lent out to the HIPC borrower. The spent borrowings were deposited by the sellers of "stuff" to the HIPC at the BIS (directly or indirectly). Interest payments from the new deposit at the BIS reduce HIPC loans outstanding.Every time the IMF does this, they are creating money exactly the way the Fed created it when treasury picked up all the gold in 1933 and replaced it with dollar bills. - It was the only non gold "real cash" created for the $ economy since the greenback period of the Civil War. It has no liability attached to it.The table is marked with * to denote ends of lines. If the * are not at the end of the lines, copy the it to a text editor and straighten the lines up so that the only line breaks in the table are those after a *. Click Here to view yesterday's discussion.
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