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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/17/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) site steward (9/17/01; 23:11:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 61820) Building better perspectives in a Big World http://www.usagold.com/goldenchalkboard/gc_Turkey.html The link above is for megatron, who threw in the towel moments ago. I have a friend in Istanbul who takes exception to your comment, "gold ain't goin anywhere but down for a long long time."Have a look. Good perspective is just a click away.Kind regards,R. Black Blade (9/17/01; 22:58:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 61819) NYMEX plans short energy/metals sessions all week NEW YORK, Sept 17 (Reuters) - The New York Mercantile Exchange said in a statement Monday it plans to run abbreviated energy, natural gas and metals trading sessions all week this week. NYMEX announced the following schedule (all times Eastern) for NYMEX division contracts: - natural gas 10:30 a.m. to 1:45 p.m. - crude oil 10:45 a.m. to 1:45 p.m. - Brent crude 10:30 a.m. to 1:45 p.m. - heating oil 10:50 a.m. to 1:45 p.m. - gasoline 10:50 a.m. to 1:45 p.m. - palladium 9:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. - platinum 9:35 a.m. to 12:35 p.m. Black Blade: The smell of absolute FEAR grows stronger. It appears that control is slipping away and shorter trading periods are desired. Black Blade (9/17/01; 22:43:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 61818) Asia Relieved Wall St. Plunge Not Worse http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/010918/business_markets_global_dc_1.html Snippit:SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Asian markets opened higher on Tuesday, relieved that Wall Street's biggest-ever points plunge was not worse and buoyed by a round of central bank rate cuts, but the specter of global recession could not be shaken. Black Blade: This article is right about one thing, the Working Groups on Financial Markets and several company buybacks appear to have minimized Wall Street losses. There are persistent rumors that the Japanese government through the BOJ is involved in buying stocks on the Nikkei in a Very Big Way. It should be noted that many major Japanese banks are rumored to be insolvent and are soon to be audited by the IMF after being denied access to the Bankers books. The delay begs the question if the time was used to "Cook the Books," or as they say in the business, build a "Lie Log." Just a few questions being asked. megatron (9/17/01; 22:32:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 61817) Gave up ,Forum After the negative reaction to gold/silver today from the almost unbelievable manipulation of the POG, I have decided that nothing can now stop this insanity short of nuclear war,in which case gold/silver will be worthless anyway. There is no way they will allow the case to get to discovery after this weeks events,no way. All of my gold and silver assets are going to be liqudated to buy property. I am embarrassed to be part of the same race as Alan Greenspan and the JPMORGAN ownership,Bin Laden, et al.Any person that could unwittingly watch an entire class of people and investor be destroyed for their own insane machinations and delusions could only be classed with the lowest forms of life on earth. As far as the POG it is now clear they intend to collapse the entire worlds financial structure in order to get the maximum amount into the hands of their filthy breathren. I hope Greenspan Rubin and Summers suffer the same kind of horrific fate other innocent people have. I will be laughing HEARTILY. Too bad. They actually could have done the world a favor instead of forcing their crazy religious lunacy on people like me. Mark my words, esteemed individuals of the proudest group in the USA, gold ain't goin anywhere but down for a long long time. Gimli_ (9/17/01; 22:28:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 61816) Asia Markets Bounce Back--Nikkei up almost 4% http://finance.yahoo.com/m2?u Europe stocks up today. Asian stocks up tonight. Gold going down a bit. US markets should rally tomorrow. THX-1138 (9/17/01; 22:21:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 61815) The Rats have been fleeing the ship for months!!!!!! http://biz.yahoo.com/t/g/gs.html Check out the past insiders at Goldman Sachs who are selling off their shares. Black Blade (9/17/01; 22:19:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 61814) USD Getting Ripped A New One! http://www.mrci.com/qpnight.asp The US Dollar index is getting hammered tonight, as well as everything else. Stock futures are up modestly which is interesting as when this happens it is the institutional money also known as the "Smart Money", shortly after the NY open there is a sudden reversal by the "Dumb Money." We shall see what happens, still it looks to get interesting as stock indices are still grossly overvalued by any rational measure. The DOW needs to drop at least another 1900 pts, thea Nasdaq by another 800 pts, and the S&P by another 350 pts before rational historical valuations are reached. We have a long way to go. Goldfly (9/17/01; 22:05:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 61813) PH What? Has gotten into you? uponroof (9/17/01; 22:00:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 61812) slingshot/goldquest/auspec http://spas12.com/index.htm Greetings slingshotThe problem is not so much physical shelter.I live in a 200 year old stone farmhouse, with 18 inch walls, that will easily withstand almost anything less than a direct hit. Of course if the wind is blowing my way and anthrax or radiation is on board nothing will help outside of some serious survival gear. More to the point... The problem won't just be the initial attack (whatever form it comes in). It'll be my 'neighbors' who's 2 x 4 paper and plastic developement shacks, built by young Ricky Rocket crews in 3 weeks, won't withstand or keep out anything. There will be major panics with kill or be killed rationale. Hate to say it but I might not have enough 12 guage shells to ward them off as they will not be asking for a cup of sugar at my front door. More like through the window in the middle of the night for everything I have.Think that's crazy? A scene from a movie that could never happen in real life? Well, was that a movie we watched on 9/11?This forum is very intellectual and most impressive in the financial awareness arena. But as far as street smarts I'm not so sure. Try to imagine what will happen if an unforseen life threatening danger is wafting through the air of a major city or even state. Ever wonder what a few million city folks panicing at the same time looks like? In fact after 9/11 it may be possible to create a major panic by just calling in a threat, without any real bomb. Hummmmmm. Maybe it'd be better to avoid those situations and move to a safer location. Brave, frightend, smart, stupid, you decide. Yes, reminds me of what my old man told me: "There's a very thin line between brave and stupid". Eventually I learned the lesson. Suggest you all think out what could happen in your neck of the woods (especially major city folks) and devise an emergency exit plan for your family. Not how to run from the enemy but how to survive to fight another day. I pray those plans never have to be implemented but I believe within 10 years they almost certainly will.In fact isn't that one reason why we own gold?Again sorry to be so dismal. This is my last post on the subject. Just had to point out a few things. goldquest! I was wonderin where you went. A pleasure to speak with you again my friend. Any small potatos gold/silver mines for sale in Idaho? If I'm moving it's gotta have some underground reserves. Love that SPAS but it's a dang heavy gun (8 lbs). Made for banging around when carrying outdoors in bad conditions etc. Nice link about it above. Hey buddy, as a Vietnam vet how do you see this 'patriotic' issue. Your opinion would be much appreciated. Breif or detailed. Thanks buz. auspec your last post #61803 was brilliant and much appreciated. Especially the last paragraph. Well said and thanks. PH in LA (9/17/01; 21:47:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 61811) How's this for a start? http://www.prodigitalrecords.com/start.html Message for the CIA:Check out the link for suggestion on a good first step in the war on terrorism! Netking (9/17/01; 21:38:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61810) "2nd U.S. wave of strike will be against Iraq" - says Israel http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75512&contrassID=3&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0&itemNo=75512 Snippet:"According to Israeli military assessments, the second strike wave - after attacks on Osama bin Laden's organization in Afghanistan - will likely include actions against Saddam Hussein's regime. If this happens, Iraq is likely to fire ground-to-ground missiles at Israel . . . " BR549 (9/17/01; 21:35:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 61809) AEL (msg#: 61802)---- AEL-"As a collectivity*, we cannot steal, cheat,bomb, starve, double-cross, and otherwise treat others like scum,for decades, without incurring "blowback", sooner or later, in one form or other, and without... yes... *deserving* it."BR-"blowback",yes...*deserving* it?" So we deserved the attack on 911? These words like the one's in quotes of my last post to you, are YOUR WORDS duplicated exactly in your last post, not my words. I suggest that if you wish to copy someone else's thoughts and post them, that you read them very carefully first and make sure that you agree with all of them.Your words along with the idiocy of these murderers not being faceless cowards (they were brave?) speaks for the collective mentality of the lightweight second guessers with no solutions to terrorism or anything else that exists here and around the world.God Bless America and its allies in their long upcoming battle against terrorism.BR549 Netking (09/17/01; 21:25:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 61808) "Saddam may be THE target" - R James Woolsey http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/17/wirq17.xml Mr R James Woolsey, former director of the CIA says Saddam may be target Americans are looking for. Snippet:" . . . investigators should revisit the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Centre. A few years ago, the facts in that case seemed straightforward: The mastermind behind the bombing, who went by the alias Ramzi Yousef, was in fact a 27-year-old Pakistani named Abdul Basit.But late last year, AEI Press published Study of Revenge: Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War Against America, a careful book about the bombing by the AEI scholar Laurie Mylroie.The book's startling thesis is that the original theory of the attack, advanced by James Fox (the FBI's chief investigator into the 1993 bombing until his replacement in 1994) was correct: that Yousef was not Abdul Basit but rather an Iraqi agent who had assumed the latter's identity when police files in Kuwait (where the real Abdul Basit lived in 1990) were doctored by Iraqi intelligence during the occupation of Kuwait.If Mylroie and Fox (who died in 1997) are right, then it was Iraq that went after the World Trade Centre last time, which makes it much more plausible that Iraq has done so again. . . " Black Blade (9/17/01; 20:40:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 61807) RE: annie - O'Reilley and Patriotism Annie,When I first saw O'Reilly I thought that he was interesting, even amusing. The more I watched , the more I realized that he is an idiotic self-absorbed buffoon. The stck market has nothing whatsoever to de with patriotism. Buying Gold and Silver is most patriotic as it is "Constitutional Money." Ever hear the words "Not worth a Continental?" I rest my case! Cheers!- Black Blade Cavan Man (9/17/01; 20:30:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 61806) Hello auspec May I be the first to say what a superb reply you just made to annie? My only disagreement is with the timing. I believe the horizon you reference where the rubber meets the road is much nearer than we realize. Two things are certain for US citizens:1. Much higher inflation2. Much higher taxes1 + 2 = bad news.My nose is in the history books also and has been for many years. Kind regards......CM Max Rabbitz (9/17/01; 20:25:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 61805) Significant Correction The following statement "I think Islam considers self sacrifice in war the same as suicide." should read "I do not think Islam considers self sacrifice in war the same as suicide."Is there a demonic gnome in the system that steals words after I post? Max Rabbitz (9/17/01; 20:16:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 61804) Netking, Curious, and the FBI http://www.fbi.gov/ Netking msg#: 61669) responded to me "Is Christ (& Western Christians) weak Sir? No. . . . they need to remember that after laying his life down like no other, Christ rose again from the dead(more evidence on this than on Cesar existence), this would have taken tremendous "intestinal fortitude" an event no other "religious leader" has ever emulated. . . many are proud to be counted among the number."Max: Christianity is perceived as weak and tolerant of "decadence." High rates of out-of-wedlock babies (what we once called bastards), divorce, crime, corruption (like market manipulations), etc. Of course, Islamic fundamentalists also strongly criticize Arab governments for corruption and decadence. Now we can criticize Islamic fundamentalists for brutality and evil. Curious said "Are the comments that suicide is against Islam a propaganda show to attempt to fool the public? I do not think so......... Are the leaders of Islam afraid of being killed if they speak out?" Max: I think Islam considers self sacrifice in war the same as suicide. However, the Koran can be interpreted in many ways. And yes, the leaders of all countries with significant fundamentalist populations are at risk. When people are under great stress from overpopulation, climatic change, water shortages, economic decay, corruption, and unemployment they will try to find a way out. Fundamentalism provides hope. Robert Kaplan has written several books and essays on the coming chaos in this region. Islamic fundamentalists provide a utopian vision for the most desperate and/or hateful.My understanding of Islam comes mostly from those I have worked with for the last 15 years. All are devasted by what has happened. Beyond the threat to their personal safety addressed by our President today they are deeply reflective. I am not easy on them. Can Islam tolerate diversity and respect the rights of other religions? It tolerates Christianity and Judaism (as inferior to Islam) but not other religions and thus Islam may not be compatible with the diversity I so value in our world. Sometimes I think of Islam as the Klingons in Star Trek. Islam was founded on the sword. Let's hope Cap'n Kirk can handle them without resort to the warp drive. Most Muslims in America are some of the mot decent people you could hope to meet. We need their help in confronting this evil. Last week I reported to the FBI someone I worked with about 3 years ago. This was not easy to do. I was accused of being a bigot. He is a scientist, a plant pathologist from Somalia. But he also was a very religious fundamentalist Islamic who several years ago had in private conversation spoken highly of the Taliban. He was highly interested in politics. I asked him why he was in this country if he thought we were so decadent. He was here to learn. He is still here, in the New York area. The American people do not understand the number of secret organizations and networks operating in this country. Much of this comes from the many "third world" wars/conflicts going on and the inevitable intrigue involved. Islamic groups support one side (Eritrea) over another (Christian Ethiopia), Sudan north over Christian south, Somali clans, Albanians, etc. These groups are here. They spy on and intrigue against each other and us. Our open immigration policy needs to be revistied. We must learn to discriminate against those who hate us or who do not share our values. The FBI has a web site where information can be reported (see above). I understand that some people are concerned with civil liberties. Providing names of people who might know something and could help and does not violate anyone's civil liberties. Let's not wait until those suitcase nukes start going off in Washington, New York and Norfolk Navel Shipyard. auspec (9/17/01; 19:54:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 61803) annie If you listen to Bill O'Reilly for very long you will come to understand that he has NO expertise in the intricacies of the financial markets. Many of his comments are shallow, naive, and misguided, in spite of the fact he does so much good in so many other areas. The shorts get a bumb rap as they perform a most ligitimate market function, for example: who is most likely to form the floor under a market collapse and turn the market higher? You got it, those buying back their short positions. We all buy and sell, some merely reverse the order. One may NOT short stocks w/o capital backing this position, and it is merely the bubbleoniacs that disparage the shorts. Shorting is really quite simple, but so few do it, as so few go against the crowds anyway. Every buy must have a sell, it's ridiculous to praise the buyers and castigate the sellers, it just goes to show you how far away from honest markets we actually are.How long can the manipulations continue? They can and will go on for an extended period of time, especially in a war economy. Everyone cheers these actions as though there were some type of free lunch, but of course this cannot be the case. Printed money means a detriment to the US$ and any other G7 country currency that so participates, inflation in its classic sense. They will mostly all do it in synchrony to obscure their actions, that's the nature of the beast. Gold will sniff them out. I am apparently not smart enough to understand all the deflation talks, as it seems so contrary to the the typical resorts of the CBs. I do, however, see some sectors inflating while others undergo deflation, mostly according to debt overloads and the unwinding of same. Inflation and deflation are largely monetary events at their roots, as you know, yet the prices of various services and/or products may behave totally differently under a given -flation.Bottom line to your questions, the manipulations have a long term time horizon, but the manips are extremely inflationary. They will go till the first/last derivative domino collapses our system as we know it. Then they will continue with the replacement financial fiat{?} system. I really don't object to SELECTIVE smoothing as this week actually calls for, the problem is that nothing has been done selectively, but has been ongoing and frauduloligarchial {don't try looking that one up. Peter would be proud, no?}As far as a response to recent terrorism, retaliation is a must as this enemy will take a lack of it as weakness. Nothing good shall come of this but a deadly escalation that will lead to the 'twinkling of an eye' event. Please remember WHO was attacked in this tragedy, besides simply innocent civilians as well as military personnel. This hit the bankers and their 'capital center' VERY hard, IMF, Globalists, Insurers, Derivative Masters, and who knows which major financial 'bosses' were present. They cannot be real pleased other than the opportunities they will now have to expand their power bases. Current patriotism is wonderful, but I doubt it will be sustained over the years required to attemp to clean up terrorism. The populace does not turn from pampered and soft to steely hard and determined in that short of a period of time. The flags and songs will give way to 'Who Wants to be a Millionaire?' in short order. Please remember the Soviet's utter failure in Afghanistan, as well as how unlikely an allegiance/agreement is to hold up with the likes of Pakistan. Nothing good will come of this currently declared 'war', terrorism will NEVER be wiped out and is more likely to expand as this scenario plays out.As for me, I will fight what I perceive to be evil until I breathe no more. There is much evil on both sides of this conflict, and our current fraudulent and manipulated money system as well as those who sustain and profit from it at the expense of the common worker, will not receive my allegiance, at least not blindly. My America is in the history books, and that is the one that has my eternal allegiance. If one thinks that is un-American or unpatriotic, that is their privilege, but my calling is to a higher source still. For example, with today's 'patriotic buying' of stocks, that is nothing more than a vote of confidence in the Rubin's, Green$pans, and others that have brought us to the edge of this cliff, where a single 'straw', however heavy or light, can fell our financial house of 'stacked deck' cards. I cannot participate, sorry, too much is known. It's all to blatantly obvious as the insiders cash out while Joe and Jane pitch in.Yes, annie, these are most interesting times. Things are happening, actually on a smaller scale so far, that I have been expecting for quite some time. Nothing good shall come of this.Most kind regards,auspec AEL (9/17/01; 19:52:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 61802) BR549 (9/17/01; 17:17:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 61782) BR: "So if we can expect whatever the terrorists dish out Doesthat not imply that we deserved 911?" Sir, the issue was (your words): "those innocent people that weremurdered by those cowards" -- i.e. the 5,000+ people who gotkilled, and who were of course innocent *as individuals*; they ofcourse did not deserve to be killed, and only a monster wouldsuggest otherwise. Now, however, you are switching the subjectfrom those *individuals* to the collective "WE" (the USA) -- whichcan not only *expect* such atrocities to occur, but very likelydoes *deserve* them as well (though I cannot say for sure, notbeing God; I call them as I see them, imperfectly). If that iscorrect, then the collective USA owes a huge apology to those whodied, which would best be expressed by removing the root causes ofthe catastrophe. *As a collectivity*, we cannot steal, cheat,bomb, starve, double-cross, and otherwise treat others like scum,for decades, without incurring "blowback", sooner or later, inone form or other, and without... yes... *deserving* it. It is aterrible tragedy that many innocent individuals must suffer anddie in the course of this entirely-predictable outworking.---------BR: "There is no sabre-rattling here. No war mongering."There is sabre-rattling and war-mongering everywhere, to anastonishing degree. The article below, which should have beenmerely a bizarre clip from some Dr Strangelove-type item offiction, actually appeared in major media. "The time has come [todeliver] nuclear strikes against the instigators and perpetratorsof the attacks"! This man, Thomas Woodrow, is certifiably,clinically insane. And he is not the only one.http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20010914-87723680.htmThe Washington Times, www.washtimes.comTime to Use The Nuclear OptionThomas WoodrowPublished 9/14/01The time has come for the United States to make good on its pastpledges that it will use all military capabilities at its disposalto defend U.S. soil by delivering nuclear strikes against theinstigators and perpetrators of the attacks against the nation'spolitical capital and the nation's financial capital................ Netking (9/17/01; 19:49:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 61801) Boxman Howdy Sir Boxman(61796). Yes, good points.The 4.92% fall for the day would have certainly been been somewhat greater if there had been no rate cut of 0.50%.I had posted (earlier today) & suggested a drop of 6-10% for the day, the fact that we were down well over 7% and recovered to 4.92% in "these conditions" given also how long the market has been closed is a minor win for the PPT. Cheers Netking PH in LA (9/17/01; 19:47:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 61800) Thinking outside of the box. http://www.larouchepub.com/pr/2001/010914kosyakov_lar.html The following excerpt from Lyndon LaRouche's site is from an interview with a Russian Secret Service professional. I hope that the pros surounding our president are as capable and intelligent as this guy. I doubt it though. After all, the president's father is the former head of the CIA and he is still trying to explain why the CIA supported bin Laden all those years. "Kosyakov: You see, in evaluating the situation one fact stuck out. It is known, that there were telephone calls from the airplanes. One of the passengers that called was a professional journalist. But, the media has not made any mention of a description of the terrorists. None of the passengers who called said, for example, "we have been hijacked by Arab terrorists." Not one of them described what the terrorists looked like, their accents, pronunciation; nothing caused the callers to want to characterize them in some way...."Q: Couldn't the secret services conceal this information?"Kosyakov: These were private phone calls, which not even the FBI could keep secret. The conclusion suggests itself, that the outward appearance of the hijackers in no way distinguished them from the rest of the passengers. Only then, would a person fail to mention any features of the hijackers. This suggests that the hijackers looked Caucasian."There is also another fact, pointing to this. The criminals left a big lead: a rental car was found, left at the airport out of which a plane was hijacked, filled with the Koran, and flying manuals in Arabic. But then look: Not a single organization has claimed responsibility. That means, the terrorists want to conceal their identity. So, given such professionalism, given such extreme care, how could such an error be permitted? This hardly fits with the minute detail of the planning of the action."All this points to the conclusion, that the criminals wanted to leave a false trail. The secret services will pay no attention to ordinary Americans or Europeans, but will look for Arabs."Q: But isn't the practice of self-sacrifice typical of Muslim culture?"Kosyakov: You are quite correct. But who told you, that the dead hijackers were not Muslims?... Based on the information we have, analysis might lead us to the conclusion, that the perpetrators were American or European followers of radical Islam. Meanwhile, the real criminals are being saved for the next actions. For it is quite clear, that a combination is being played that has several moves."Q: You mean, you think there will be new attacks?"Kosyakov: Unfortunately, I think we must prepare ourselves for new acts of terror, in a different form, but just as effective. Our estimates indicate that ships could be used to ram hydroelectric infrastructure. Imagine a dam being hit by a passenger ship, or a tanker with two or three thousand tons of oil. It would inundate a couple of cities with a population of a million and a half, plus burning oil on top. Or another possibility: train lines under the Hudson River, which could be exploded from above or below. And water would rush into the tunnels."Q: You say the attack will be in America?"Kosyakov: Yes. First of all, the terrorists want to demonstrate their skill. Secondly, remember, that besides the airplanes, also an automobile was blown up. So, what would have prevented the terrorists from also simultaneously blowing up a couple of automobiles in Europe, if they are preparing to carry out actions all over the world? No, the target was America, and the civilian population in particular.... But I want to repeat: the fact, that the terrorists are not claiming responsibility, indicates that they will strike again and again. Until the second stage is reached—the stage of global conflict. This is the goal of all these actions. At that point they will reveal their authorship, in order to obtain a mobilization reserve..."Q: What is the probability that American intelligence will be able to find the leader of this operation? Or, will they just give the public some cover story?"Kosyakov: The probability is high. There are people, there are the apartments where they were located, and so there is a trail, of course. Through the perpetrators, the organizer may be found."Q: And who is it? Bin Laden?"Kosyakov: Hardly. Sure, some conversation of his was intercepted, where someone reported about hitting two targets. That would indirectly support his involvement. But he is not the ideologue. he is too visible. Those who could organize all this are too clever, to be so visible." goldquest (9/17/01; 19:47:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 61799) uponroof We have room for you partner, here in Idaho! PS, bring your Franchi Spas! You know who! slingshot (9/17/01; 19:23:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61798) Preparation Time Now that we will strike against some terrorist encampment we should take a look at the time it will take to prepare.Sort of getting your Ducks in a row. Compared to Desert Shield/Storm I belive the time is very short. The USA is going alone and the agreements needed between countries for minor support comes willingly.Around the corner are the Holidays and the event in the stock market today could be a sign for retailors who depend on Holiday sales to keep them afloat.Consumer Confidence?The time to own Gold is more important than ever.To touch on another point on being a coward if you flee danger.There are no cowards in this situation! Only frighten people.I live near a dangerous installation and I am not going to let that bugger scare me out of my home. Put it this way. Your home offers more protection than out in the open. and the winds can spread radiation over wide areas. If you live close to one of those POSSIBLE terrorist targets I would not worry. One place is as good as another.I must admit you all are very calm considering the events that may befall us. Thats speaks well for those at this forum.Slingshot AllanC (9/17/01; 18:43:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 61797) To allyou flag wavers Don't get me wrong. I do not for one minute have anything but disgust for this evil, terrorist deed, and sympathy for the victims and innocents. But some of us, including you BR49 should not get carried away with words. Referring to the people who commandeered the planes as COWARDS is an untruth. That insults the English language.Do we know the meaning of the words cowardice? Why are they cowards? Because they won't come out and fight like men? Their puny weapons against our myriad of high tech weapons? Give me a break will ya....Would you BR49 be so willing to comandeer a plane into the center of Kabul and take your own life? I think not... It's easy for us sitting in the comfort of our homes and watching TV to get out the flag and get carried away with our anger, as our mind gets clouded by our intense feelings. Now go ahead and lynch me if you want..... Boxman (9/17/01; 18:40:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 61796) Netking msg# : 61786 - Today, tomorrow http://navigation.helper.realnames.com/framer/1/262/default.asp?realname=Drudge&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edrudgereport%2Ecom%2F&frameid=1&providerid=262&uid=200967796 Netking posted:<<What would Wall street have gone down if there wasn't a rate cut of %0.50?What about the SM tomorrow, more of the same, a rise or consolidation?>>Netking, there was much more that was actually planned.Snippets from the above link:<<The US Federal Reserve and Wall Street's powerful investment banks are preparing to spend billions of dollars to support the US stock market>><< A secretive committee - the Working Group on Financial Markets, dubbed 'the plunge protection team' - includes bankers as well as representatives of the New York Stock Exchange, Nasdaq and the US Treasury. It is ready to co-ordinate intervention by the Federal Reserve on an unprecedented scale>><<In addition, US regulators are prepared to ease rules that prevent companies from buying their own stock.>><< Tony Jackson, director of UK equity strategy at investment bank ING Barings, believes there may be an emotional tide of support for Wall Street this week, but that it will be shortlived. He said: 'Some people are talking about a "patriotic rally" that could lift the Dow by 1,000 points on reopening. I don't think it will be that high, but it will certainly go up, perhaps several hundred points.>>There was also some talk of limiting short orders. If all of these strategies were implemented, even to a lesser degree than indicated, it would seem to me that the markets would have tanked to a much greater degree than they did. annie (9/17/01; 18:36:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 61795) Bust the budger? O'Reilly, whom I usually respect, just said that shorting the market made him sick.Sorry. I have to think that markets should be based on capitalistic concepts.I'm a patriot, but... BR549 (9/17/01; 18:27:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 61794) Just because we are at WAR doesn't mean there is a bankster's Holiday (yet) Cannuck---Would you believe that manipulation of the POG must be maintained by the Fed in order to keep the value of the $ as high as possible on the world market, especially in the new strategy of "bust the budger" hyper-inflation?Regards,BR549 annie (9/17/01; 18:22:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61793) @Canuck All things are possible with unlimited power to "print" FRNs. If one can sell short gold that one does not have, what is the end?And. Yes. I have wondered the same thing. How can they keep going on and on. It's amazing. annie (9/17/01; 18:17:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61792) @Auspec Glad to see you back. I firmly believe that all markets are being controlled at this point. How long can it continue?I am for a war against terrorists--not just the ones involved in this particular attack--but, I do not want the wholesale anihilation of all Arabs. These are interesting times in which we live, no?Welcome back, friend. annie uponroof (9/17/01; 18:13:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 61791) If there ever was a time for gold..... this is it. Let's not forget there's this little matter of U.S. retribution ahead. How would you like to calculate bombing then the following terrorist retaliation into this fragile market. On Friday the market reacted to a taliban warning. Wait till one or more of the OPEC nations condemns U.S. strikes. Terrorist attacks on major cities will have a lasting damaging affect on urban real estate values. Real Estate is thee last U.S. economic stronghold. If RE goes down, this economy is cooked. Meanwhile Japan and the rest of the world are looking less and less to the U.S. for economic guidance and strength. Russia is well on the way to a gold backed currency and may turn out to be ahead of the curve as global competitive currency devaluation looms. Hyperinflation is almost as sure as another terrorist attack.Our luck is up....Jacks are down. btw-I live close to Philadelphia and about 10 miles from a nuclear power plant. Don't think I haven't thought about moving to the sticks of Montana. Does that make me a coward? I don't think so. Love to get in a fight with someone but how do you fight airborne biological or radiation death? You folks that live in or near cities....are you ready to throw your 'important items' into your car and make a dash for safety, leaving all else behind? Probably hit grid lock traffic before you get 3 miles. Sorry to be so happy-go-lucky. Just thinkin out loud. Canuck (9/17/01; 18:12:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 61790) Help please! Can someone please explain to me (and maybe there are others) how it is even possible that the price of gold is up a limp 14 dollars after all the world has gone through in the last 7 days?If the answer is simply that the 'powers that be' are 'managing' the books then the next question is are the books going to become 'unmanageable'. I'm getting the 'quibblies' again.Canuck. auspec (09/17/01; 17:44:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 61789) Midas on JPM/C How can anyone come out and proclaim $264 gold right after our President exclaims the U.S is at WAR, unless they are told to do so, or they know the market is rigged? This is ridiculous and is once again another affront to the notion of free markets in the U.S.My take on it is that Morgan must be petrified - scared silly that the bank could collapse at any time as a result of their outrageous derivative positions.You can bet your bottom dollar JP Morgan was one of the big sellers in New York today after a surging gold registered a $293.25 London PM Fix.JP Morgan Chase could not be too happy either to see the 30 year bond rate RISE over a half a point today even as the stock market was tanking.I strongly suggest Café members keep their eye on the share price of J.P. Morgan Chase which broke down technically by breaking below $36, violating staunch technical support. It closed today at $35 1/4 and has broken below its 50 and 200 day moving averages. If this stock breaks hard from here, the financial system in the U.S. is in trouble! Of course, these guys are a hypocritical and lousy lot all the way around.Below are the insider equity trades from Mr. Douglas Warner, former JPM chairman. Positioned as he was in the stupendous JPMC interest rate derivative run up, now at $17 trillion dollars notional value, Mr. Warner could well appreciate the rising risks associated with holding an interest rate derivative book based upon the absence of volatility in the gold and currency markets. His personal gain from these trades exceeds $50 million dollars. What did he know and when did he know it?Now that the world has changed, who in finance is willing to take a low volatility trade in interest rate derivatives, because that is the bet that it appears that J.P. Morgan ( or our government) has made? We go full circle back to Gibson's Paradox again. The essence of J.P. Morgan Chase's gold and interest rate positions is that the dollar stay strong, gold price be calm, low and subdued and that interest rates stay down with little volatility.It was the enormous increase in the volatility of the option derivatives that caused so many financial problems for LTCM and Ashanti (during the aftermath of the Washington Accord September, 1999 gold price explosion). There wasn't anyone to take the other side of their trades. They could not get out and still be economically viable. They were trapped.The horror show of last week may have trapped J.P. Morgan Chase, or their backers, in a similar kind of predicament! ENDComment: JPM/C sickly and yet to remove their boots. nickel62 (09/17/01; 17:43:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 61788) I am sorry I meant to address the last comment to my friend... BR549...Good luck with your viewpoint. nickel62 (09/17/01; 17:40:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 61787) You and I are never going to agree. I have nothing positive to add to your opinion. So good luck to you. I wish the world was as simple as you hope it is. Netking (9/17/01; 17:24:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 61786) Today, tomorrow . . . . What would Wall street have gone down if there wasn't a rate cut of %0.50?What about the SM tomorrow, more of the same, a rise or consolidation? slingshot (9/17/01; 17:24:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 61785) (No Subject) He who has the Gold makes the rules.He who wins the War writes the Books.Plenty of sayings going around these days.Maybe the one by Teddy Roosevelt.Walk softly, But carry a Big Stick. The stick is getting bigger!Slingshot sourdough (9/17/01; 17:22:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 61784) Thumbs up for gold stocks http://business-times.asia1.com.sg/companies/story/0,2276,21685,00.html? Mr Gresham (9/17/01; 17:20:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 61783) Sad, but True, Story of Life Mr Gresham (9/17/01; 13:23:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 61759)You cannot appear to be challenging the group's in-binding ("team spirit") cohesiveness head-on in a time of crisis. Education needs to be done consistently, and, like buying and selling market trends, almost in reverse of the crowd's mood.A "correct" position, imparted incorrectly, is not, finally, a bringing of "intelligence" to the group. Logic brings up the rear here, sad to say.You need to take into consideration the individual, and the sense of threat felt by both individual and group. You cannot lead the group in a better direction, if they do not trust you are trying for their better interest. What wins that trust is unique to each situation, but hammering them with "shoulds" is a proven non-starter.A idea leader who gets too far out ahead, soon finds he has no followers. (Or else gets fragged. ;) BR549 (9/17/01; 17:17:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 61782) Sorry, I was wrong. I think it was the citizens from over 60 countries who were murdered on 911 AEL (9/17/01; 16:36:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61778)BR post---"Those innocent people from among 40 countries that were murdered by those cowards on 911 DID NOT deserve it."AEL-"OF COURSE they did not deserve it! NO ONE whose words I have posted has said that, or even implied it. And certainly I never said or implied it."Prior AEL post-"Some day it might actually dawn on someone in this country that the grown-up but unwelcome answer is that the terrorists attacked us because they were paying us back for what we started. Let us hear no more about how the "terrorists" have "declared war on America." Any nation that allows a criminal chief executive to use its military power to slaughter civilians in unprovoked and legally unauthorized attacks for his own personal political purposes can expect whatever the "terrorists" dish out to it."BR-So if we can expect whatever the "terrorists" dish out" Does that not imply that we deserved 911? I think your post was very clear in its intended meaning. There is no sabre-rattling here. No war mongering. Wake up—we either eradicate terrorism now or be destroyed by it in the future. Get out of the Viet Nam mentality and smell the stench in Manhattan. We are at WAR! Get it?nickel62 (9/17/01; 16:30:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 61777)---" Jingoism is not a defense for failure to think!" BR-So think! The USA is being prepared for the awful war that is inevitable. The World Coalition must destroy terrorism. If Clinton had taken the action needed back when bin Laden first attacked the WTC, then we would not have to do this now. Prepare the country, then prepare the world. Strad Master (9/17/01; 16:25:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 61776)---Great post!BR549 AEL (9/17/01; 17:01:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 61781) BR549 (9/17/01; 16:04:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61775) To my mind, the saber-rattlers and warmongers are theones spouting "anti-USA propaganda". But that depends onone's conception of what the USA IS: republic, or empire.If it is the latter, and if it *ought* to be the latter,then I am wrong, and I shall join the chorus........."Hail Caesar!""HAIL BABYLON!" nickel62 (9/17/01; 16:47:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 61780) Strad Master, With all do respect I don't differ with the article you posted.. The point of the earlier article that AEL posted was that in all honesty the US military has been used as a political tool that few would not recognize as self serving by our political elite. The numerous uses by the Clintoneestas serves as ample example of that. What were we supposed to think the bombings on the eve of Mr. Clinton's political problems didn't really hurt civilians? Or that they just happened to occur when they did? The National Review article is also an important viewpoint. I am in favor of the US retaliation, I just insist on a degree of honesty from our leaders as they send my children off to war. BR549 (9/17/01; 16:39:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 61779) The NY State Pension Fund--- Anybody catch the Treasurer of the State of NY this morning on CNBC before the market opened? After the interview of all of the "I can't pass a camera without saying something NY politicians", he was next up. He said that we was prepared and was going to invest a "substantial portion" of the NY State Workers Pension fund into the market today. Remember the genius out in Orange County that bought options to the tune of a $1BB+ lost to the taxpayers. When asked in court why he did it, his response was that maybe he wasn't as good an investor as he thought he was.Well, maybe you NY State retirees can live off of your social security. Whoops, that may be gone now too. If the Treasurer had invested the entire pension stash into gold, at least they wouldn't have lost the substantial sums that they surely lost today.BR549 AEL (9/17/01; 16:36:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61778) BR549 (9/17/01; 16:04:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61775) "Those innocent people from among 40 countries that were murdered by those cowards on 911 DID NOT deserve it."OF COURSE they did not deserve it! NO ONE whose words Ihave posted has said that, or even implied it. Andcertainly I never said or implied it.Distinguish, please: 1) UNDERSTANDABLE, and 2) JUSTIFIABLE.(NOT the same. Copische?) nickel62 (9/17/01; 16:30:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 61777) BR549 Jingoism is not a defense for failure to think! Strad Master (9/17/01; 16:25:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 61776) And now... for an opposing view... AEL In response to your posting of Samuel Francis's (I think sorely misguided and even demagogic) anti-war article, here is an opposing viewpoint by Daniel Pipes, one of the most respected commentators and scholars on the Middle East situation I am aware of.War, not "Crimes"by Daniel Pipes National ReviewOctober 1, 2001<http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pipes100101.shtml>http://www.nationalreview.com/01oct01/war_pipes100101.shtml"Make no mistake: The United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts." So spoke President Bush in his address to the nation soon after the catastrophic events of September 11.I agree with the president's sentiments but disagree with two specifics in this statement. First, there was nothing cowardly about the attacks, which were deeds of incredible ˜ albeit perverted ˜ bravery. Second, to "hunt down and punish" the perpetrators is deeply to misunderstand the problem. It implies that we view the plane crashes as criminal deeds rather than what they truly are ˜ acts of war. They are part of a campaign of terrorism that began in a sustained way with the bombing of the U.S. embassy in Beirut in 1983, a campaign that has never since relented. Occurring with almost predictable regularity a few times a year, assaults on Americans have included explosions on airliners, at commercial buildings, and at a variety of U.S. governmental installations. Before last week, the total death toll was about 600 American lives.To me, this sustained record of violence looks awfully much like war, but Washington in its wisdom has insisted otherwise. Official policy has viewed the attacks as a sequence of discrete criminal incidents. Seeing terrorism primarily as a problem of law enforcement is a mistake, because it means:* Focusing on the arrest and trial of the dispensable characters who actually carry out violent acts, leaving the funders, planners, organizers, and commanders of terrorism to continue their work unscathed, prepared to carry out more attacks.* Relying primarily on such defensive measures as metal detectors, security guards, bunkers, police arrests, and prosecutorial eloquence ˜ rather than on such offensive tools as soldiers, aircraft, and ships.* Misunderstanding the terrorist's motivations as criminal, whereas they are usually based on extremist ideologies.* Missing the fact that terrorist groups (and the states that support them) have declared war on the United States (sometimes publicly).* Requiring that the U.S. government have unrealistically high levels of proof before deploying military force. If it lacks evidence that can stand up in a U.S. court of justice, as is usually the case, no action is taken. The legalistic mindset thus ensures that, in the vast majority of cases, the U.S. government does not respond, and killers of Americans pay little or no price.The time has come for a paradigm shift, toward viewing terrorism as a form of warfare. Such a change will have many implications. It means targeting not just those foot soldiers who actually carry out the violence but the organizations and governments that stand behind them. It means relying on the armed forces, not policemen, to protect Americans. It means defense overseas rather than in American courtrooms. It means that organizations and governments that sponsor terrorism ˜ not just the foot soldiers who carry it out ˜ will pay the price.It means dispensing with the unrealistically high expectations of proof so that when reasonable evidence points to a regime's or an organization's having harmed Americans, U.S. military force can be deployed. It means that, as in conventional war, Washington need not know the names and specific actions of enemy soldiers before fighting them.It means retaliating every single time terrorism harms an American. There is no need to know the precise identity of a perpetrator; in war, there are times when one strikes first and asks questions later. When an attack takes place, it could be reason to target any of those known to harbor terrorists. If the perpetrator is not precisely known, then punish those who are known to harbor terrorists. Go after the governments and organizations that support terrorism.It means using force so that the punishment is disproportionately greater than the attack. The U.S. has a military force far more powerful than any other in the world: Why spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year on it and not deploy it to defend Americans?I give fair warning: The military approach demands more from Americans than does the legal one. It requires a readiness to spend money and to lose lives. Force works only if it is part of a sustained policy, not a one-time event. Throwing a few bombs (as was done against the Libyan regime in 1986, and against sites in Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998) does not amount to a serious policy. Going the military route requires a long-term commitment that will demand much from Americans over many years.But it will be worth it, for the safety of Americans depends ultimately not on defense but on offense; on victories not in the courtroom but on the battlefield. The U.S. government needs to establish a newly fearsome reputation, so that anyone who harms Americans knows that retribution will be certain and nasty. Nothing can replace the destruction of any organization or government that harms so much as a single American citizen.To those who say this approach would start a cycle of violence, the answer is obvious: That cycle already exists, as Americans are constantly murdered in acts of terrorism. Further, by baring their teeth, Americans are far more likely to intimidate their enemies than to instigate further violence. Retaliation will reduce violence, not further increase it, providing Americans with a safety they presently do not enjoy.Daniel Pipes sends out a mailing of his writings approximately once per week.To subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list, go to <http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/dplist>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/dplistAll articles are also available online at <http://www.DanielPipes.org>http://www.DanielPipes.org BR549 (9/17/01; 16:04:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61775) Two posters here take exception. Goldquest, you are right on! nickel62, AEL, jinx44--I was under the impression that this was a Gold/PM's site with the economic study of the Federal Reserve thrown in along with some other economics for good measure to anticipate or agree on the accumulation of physical metals.Previous statements---"The bombing of innocents by the U.S.?" "We are stupid children who deserve a spanking.?" "Some day it might actually dawn on someone in this country that the grown-up but unwelcome answer is that the terrorists attacked us because they were paying us back for what we started?" Those innocent people from among 40 countries that were murdered by those cowards on 911 DID NOT deserve it. I am "hanging my head" as I am physically ill. I also resepctfully suggest that there are many sites where this anti-USA propaganda is much more appropriate than here.BR549 Netking (9/17/01; 16:03:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 61774) "Nerves push gold price to 2001 high" - Sydney morning herald http://www.smh.com.au/news/0109/18/biztech/biztech14.html Snippet:"Nervous trading ahead of the reopening of New York's Wall Street markets overnight pushed the Australian dollar spot gold price to its highest level this year.Yesterday it hit $574.35 an ounce, reconfirming gold's status as a safe-haven investment in times of unrest.The price, $13 higher than the last previous high of $561.33 an ounce in May, came after the spot gold price rallied more than $US7 an ounce to $US294.50 in Sydney trading.With fears that Wall Street would open with heavy losses after last week's terrorist attacks, investors sought out secure investment sectors like gold.The Australian Gold index was one of only two indices to finish higher yesterday after the broader market shed almost 5 per cent. . . "------------------------------------------------------------They aint see nothing yet, prepare for the stampede into Gold! - Netking Netking (9/17/01; 15:56:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 61773) Australian gold sector continues turning on it's head . . . . http://afr.com/companies/2001/09/18/FFXE3450QRC.html Snippet:"Delta Gold and Goldfields on Monday added further impetus to the rapidly consolidating Australian gold sector, announcing their agreement to merge to create a company with a market capitalisation of $825 million and more than 1 million ounces of production.The cost-driven wave of consolidation sweeping across the sector has in recent weeks included AngloGold's bid for Normandy Mining - which will swallow up Australia's largest gold producer - as well as Sons of Gwalia's takeover bid for Pacmin Mining Corp, while the sale of WMC's gold assets is seen as imminent.Delta and Goldfields are targeting cost savings of $15 million a year, mostly through rationalisation of head office operations and from substantial synergies achievable from their complementary operations around the Kalgoorlie region of Western Australia. They are also expecting benefits from increased liquidity, greater investor coverage and beefed-up financial strength to pursue organic and external growth opportunities. . . . " nickel62 (9/17/01; 14:58:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 61772) The talking heads are about to exhaust their ability to pander to patriotism ... to rally the market..God had better watch out because he is next in being invoked as a "reason" to buy stocks. Perhaps since it has become unpatriotic to sell stocks, we can take it a step further and make it a cardinal sin? nickel62 (9/17/01; 14:55:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 61771) AEL I thought your post was one of the most important I have seen in quite awile.. I have been sending it to most of my friends and my son who is studying in europe at the moment. I want them to focus on the unvarnished reality and not on the ridiculous spin that the main line press is trying to con us with. I am frankly surprised that a poster here would take offense with your posting of that article. Isn't it the same feelings that most of us had as we watched the travisty of what our "bombings of innocents" had become under our prior administration..Unfortunately the Clintonestas were just more blantant in their abuses, the prior administrations had much to explain on their own. Netking (9/17/01; 14:39:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 61770) Galearis / Randy Good comments guys, I guess we will see the market current flow rapidly in a particular direction from this point forward with respect to the USD, Wall Street & property etc etc on the one hand & the PM group in another direction on the other hand.My thoughts are to sell remaining paper PM's in the short term (over anything from a few days to a few months) depending on specific conditions. Physical Gold & Silver: I will only sell some as a "last resort". If I see paper burning at such a rate to produce the prices we know it can for physical Au & Ag, I can't think of any other asset I would want to diversify into with those funds. All FWIW. - regards Murray PS: "I knowww Nuseeeng!"-Schultz. Galearis, I enjoyed 'Hogan's Heroes' too, the best! site steward (9/17/01; 14:37:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 61769) Gold getting favorable treatment in the news From Reuters today:The search for safety spurred gold bullion to its highest level since March 1, 2000. Gold was fixed at $293.25 an ounce on Monday in London, up from the morning fixing of $291.00, and well above last Friday afternoon's $285.75 fix.[...]"The practical part of bullion and what it has traditionally served as has always been that store of value in uncertain times. Bullion, more so than gold equities, has typically served as the store of value," said Barry Allan, a mining analyst at Research Capital. "The real driver here is global uncertainty. That has led to bullion being the store of value here."--------Aditionally, George Topping, a mining analyst at Sprott Securities Inc, was quoted as saying, "I think gold is really the only game in town. Looking across the board at the other sectors, I really don't see any others that have any prospects of moving higher through the remainder of the year at least."Stay one step ahead of the herd and diversify into gold before rising prices attract the additional interests of the investing public looking desparately for a "winner" immune to counterparty performance or the need for competent management in an increasingly difficult economic climate.R. Ten Bears (9/17/01; 14:32:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 61768) truth is stranger than fiction The share-market over the last decade has vacuumed up the savings of workers, the elderly, and widows and orphans. Now in an effort to squeeze out the last dollar, the shills are appealing to patriotism and admonishing that saving is the "hoarding" of dollars. The accommodating central bank has lowered interest rates to a level which produces negative real interest rates (if calculated using accurate inflation numbers).Bankers and their cronies who are responsible for the bubble will blame the unfolding debacle on Arab terrorists. Truth is stranger than fiction-tragedy on a grand scale. KarenSue (9/17/01; 14:29:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 61767) Galearis's question My thought:"at what price spot does one start to "liquidate" into the non-asset?"Only after debt foreclosure and then only when volatility levels off so that the buy sell spread becomes reasonable. For most physical holders, liquidation into the new non-asset of the day, "the Euro" will not happen until metals again lose their luster. For the smart few, the hard assets to be purchased with the new hegemonic currency will be contracted for, simultaneously or nearly simultaneously, at conversion of physical to the fiat.Only meKS site steward (9/17/01; 14:21:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 61766) Not stated, probably overnight repos. Fed adds $57.25 billion http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010917/nat000256_1.html NEW YORK, Sept 14 (Reuters) - The Federal Reserve said on Monday it added $57.25 billion in temporary reserves to the banking system as the central bank pours cash into the financial system to keep it functioning in the wake of last week's attacks. On Friday, the Fed added $81.25 billion...---In the wake of today's "reaction" by the FOMC, the Federal Reserve is now monetizing collateral indiscriminately at the giveaway price of three percent. As we ratchet up to the next inflationary level of existence, history will record that people found protection for their savings in the form of gold. Will you be among them?Centennial can help.R. KarenSue (9/17/01; 14:16:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 61765) The ax will fall PredictionO'Neill's days are numbered. If you are going to say something unimportantly untruthful, you must say it with conviction. Move over for James Baker.Only meKS AEL (9/17/01; 14:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 61764) jinx44 (9/17/01; 12:54:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 61758) Ohmigod! I've been exposed! Weasely enemy of Westerncivilization that I am! I hang my head in shame!;-) site steward (9/17/01; 14:09:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 61763) Galearis asks the million-dollar question: "at what price spot does one start to "liquidate" into the non-asset?"My immediate reaction is that there are too many individual factors to account for (person by person) that makes it impossible to provide a meaningful specific suggestion regarding the price at which one may deem it appropriate to sell their metal.Generally speaking, a "nest egg" of savings (such as gold or other liquid funds/assets/cash) provides security and peace of mind. Each person must decide for themselves what level of savings is appropriate given the reliability of their source of regular income and reasonable expectations for the future performance of their savings' purchasing power.And in light of this, we all somehow find the personal point at which we either sacrifice current lifestyle (forego purchases) to build up additional savings, or else sacrifice current savings to fund the purchase of improvements to our current lifestyle.A key starting point is to ensure that the asset chosen for your savings is one of quality -- one that won't vaporize at such times of unexpected crisis when you need it most as a safety net against potential loss of your regular income stream. R. nickel62 (9/17/01; 14:08:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 61762) The little circle of stock market icons at the close of the market took place at the NASDAQ Photo Op Center US Treasury Secretary, O'Neill's comments were so inane that even the talking heads of CNBC pulled the plug and switch to an announcement of the market wrap. O'Neill gave a lame thumbs up to a market that clearly had failed to allow the normal Plunge Protection Team to take much credit for their activities today. Gandalf the White (9/17/01; 13:45:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 61761) Looks as if the PPT may be able to recover somewhat at the END ! My GUESS is DOW ending at Down 666 on the day!<;-) Galearis (9/17/01; 13:32:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 61760) @Randy and Netking Additional small personal thoughts of self protection. I too have noted the international cascade of dropping primes. Coupled with the uncertainty and currency supply problems I now have no real plan to sell my personal bullion for shrinking dollars. I have always considered it wise to plan for worst case scenarios - a reversal of this can be such a pleasant surprise - but the fiscal turmoil and resulting social impacts possible ahead would surely imply prudence. One fears a "forced sale" due to individual insolvency (unemployment, imploding pensions and the like).Really the question here during our shrinking dollar days ahead is: at what price spot does one start to "liquidate" into the non-asset? $3,000 plus gold $150 plus silver? And one had better have the purchase of another asset almost in hand to do this. The problem is...there are few assets to compare to pms.That leaves the concerns of basic needs, staples of life, food, fuel, shelter (9 mm hollow point rounds) (smile) etc. One hopes to have on hand a good supply of silver or small(er) gold wafers, silver and gold scrap in addition to heavy weight units. And a friendly neighbourhood farmer. A lot of signs of the good life will be put on hold for a long time and a whole generation of children may not understand the word "frivolous".IMO we have just had our "left field event". It will likely speed things along in the predicted direction more or less outlined by Trail Guide and ANOTHER and as I have said before, we may not like the scenery.Best regards,G. Mr Gresham (9/17/01; 13:23:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 61759) A few quick driving thoughts on The Patriotic Impulse The Patriotic Impulse is a survival instinct necessarily bred into us by evolution as bands of humans (like other primates) who need to survive. Individuals make sacrifices (some calculated, some not) for the group's survival. All well and good. (Defining your group: now that's another challenge!)Today we are seeing the individual survival instinct, when it comes to people's wealth. Those of us still in the daily workforce link those dollar tallies to hours of labor away from our families, vacations not taken, or perhaps, meals not eaten.Did you ever see the statistic from WWII about only 15% of the men at the front firing their rifles? I still have trouble getting that one through my head. You would think that they would feel VERY much a part of a group survival effort at a moment like that.Intelligence is the quality that bridges the gap between group and individual. Anytime intelligence can be shared within the group, survival is enhanced for BOTH individual and group. (Adaptability and improvisation: two cardinal military virtues, are offshoots of intelligence.)It is necessary to keep the team (society, platoon) togetherto carry out whatever conclusions intelligence reaches. So it will always be a tension between listening to the individual, and ordering him about. But it is certainly wise to make sure all individuals have contributed their best input to the decision-making process. Humanity: A work in progress, I guess... jinx44 (9/17/01; 12:54:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 61758) AEL and the sacred cow How dare you attack our sacred cow! Just who do you think you are anyway? The US can go screw up the rest of the world, if there is something in it for the govt or the big money interests. Why should we pay lip service to being a good neighbor? We are too big to fail. Why should we care about the rest of the world, as long as we get what we want? How can the anybody criticize our rapacious lifestyle when we can still get what we want?Don't spoil our natioanal fun by reminding us that we are largely responsible for the WTC attack. We don't want to hear that at all. As soon as we kill about 25,000 more dusky foreign devils, we'll all feel much better. Until the next attack.We better wake the %$#@ up and change the way we do business. I am disgusted at the trillions of $'s we have given the govt(at gunpoint)and they still cannot do anything responsible or right. We are hostages in this country to a system that has cancerously mutated from a constitutional republic to a democratic socialist dictatorship of big govt/big business cabal. We aren't much different from the rest of the world anymore. Why do we still naively believe we are? We have forgotten God and our founding fathers advice. We are stupid children who deserve a spanking. KarenSue (9/17/01; 12:50:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 61757) Belgian Re: post # 61751 Just now read Sir Belgian's post.Sir Belgian, you say:"TG's complete theory is in fact a suggestion to do something about getting things more horizontal, globally."Short, quick comment from me:Precisely!!! I have a problem with such a suggestion. My simple position is this: - such an approach is tantamount to "Nevilleism"Only MeKS site steward (9/17/01; 12:48:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 61756) For the record, here's the Fed's PRESS RELEASE on the unscheduled 0.5% rate adjustment to 3 percent Federal Reserve Press Release (Date: September 17, 2001)The Federal Open Market Committee decided today to lower its target for the federal funds rate by 50 basis points to 3 percent. In a related action, the Board of Governors approved a 50 basis point reduction in the discount rate to 2-1/2 percent. The Federal Reserve will continue to supply unusually large volumes of liquidity to the financial markets, as needed, until more normal market functioning is restored. As a consequence, the FOMC recognizes that the actual federal funds rate may be below its target on occasion in these unusual circumstances.Even before the tragic events of last week, employment, production, and business spending remained weak, and last week's events have the potential to damp spending further. Nonetheless, the long-term prospects for productivity growth and the economy remain favorable and should become evident once the unusual forces restraining demand abate. For the foreseeable future, the Committee continues to believe that against the background of its long-run goals of price stability and sustainable economic growth and of the information currently available, the risks are weighted mainly toward conditions that may generate economic weakness.- - - - - - - - - -Looking around the world, within an hour of this rate cut the Bank of Canada cut its own target for the overnight borrowing rate by a similar 50 basis points to 3.5 percent.The European Central Bank followed suit with its own 50 basis point cut, lowering the benchmark rate to 3.75 percent.Likewise, the Swiss National Bank also joined the unscheduled action to lower a key interbank lending target by 50 basis points.These institutions are not all-powerful, but in the short term they are doing what they can to keep the financial system from flying apart at the seams. In its own words, as stated above, the Fed said it "will continue to supply unusually large volumes of liquidity to the financial markets, as needed, until more normal market functioning is restored."It is not hard to envision the ultimate effect of such "easy money" upon the purchasing power of these paper currencies. Use these efforts to your advantage, taking steps to secure your future position. Diversify into gold and let the winds blow hot or cold as they may.R. Galearis (9/17/01; 12:45:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 61755) Hello NetKing Words of wisdom? From MOI? Watching these markets makes me feel like Shultz from that old POW sitcom.All I am reasonably sure of is that right now there is twice as much gold above ground than there is silver. The US, and supposedly others, are on a war footing and this event will not be a short term one.Silver is a vital metal to a war machine.The US has essentially no strategic stockpile.One hears talk about the confiscation once more of gold.They have not done this yet for silver.If I had ownership of a heavy weight of bullion in a private bank or at COMEX right now, I just might be a wee bit nervous.Just a thought....G. KarenSue (9/17/01; 12:43:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 61754) Henri Re: your post # 61730 Henri (9/17/01; 06:57:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 61730)Sir, you say to me:"Karen Sue I have… difficult time understanding your extreme reaction to Belgian's suggestion of a more horizontal approach to (I presume) global govts attempt to direct the course of financial events. It seems you are in favor of the vertical approach which (again I presume) is that government SHOULD and MUST intervene in market activities as well as international conflict resolution."And to Sir Belgian you say:"Belgian… I am having difficulty transferring these concepts to govt as in "Horizontal"...can you please clarify what you mean exactly by this. Perhaps I would be better able to understand Karen Sue's reaction to your comments."End of quotesMy response:Boy, do I have a failure to communicate! Sir Henri, my thrust is this. Horizontal (call it, bi-lateral) interaction is a hoax. There is no such thing in the present course of events. Vertical (call it, unilateral) control is all that is going on. All so-called "sovereign" entities that matter have (de facto) turned over their sovereignty to the moneyed powers. Any talk of bi-lateral or horizontal interaction between nations is a smokescreen process. All talk is for the benefit of the foolish sheep who will "work for food" when the de jure acts of sovereignty forfeiture come into play. Divide and conquer – Order through Chaos – control the economies through control of the currencies – all of this being orchestrated by a single entity, a single power structure at the top, not at all subject to national boundaries soon to become regions and no longer nations.Am I in favor of this? Absolutely not. I am not in favor of any form of Collectivism or Globalism. What I am admitting to is the accomplished fact, the point of no return that was crossed many years ago. The entity with we are faced has no national loyalties and has no limitations as to time. This single entity crosses generational lines and is very patient in its Fabianistic approach. There is no power on earth that can stop it now.Any talk of horizontal interaction is similar to the appeasement approach of Neville Chamberlain. It is appeasement and nothing more. It aids the collectivists in the same way that appeasement aided Hitler in the earlier stages of the last world war. Only slow bellies (lazy gluttons) and thoroughly brainwashed fools are willing to take the handouts offered now in exchange for liberty.Government SHOULD NOT and MUST NOT intervene in market activity. The problem is that a single entity, which has control of governments HAVE intervened to remove any hope of free market activity, without which, no personal and or individual freedom, or national sovereignty can exist.I cannot speak for my good friend, Sir Belgium. My "extreme reaction" to Belgium's suggestion has to do with my perception (very possibly an incorrect perception) that his suggestion is tantamount to aiding and abetting the hoax, the hoax that nations are in a position to choose to cooperate, when in fact, nations are simply towing the line of obedience to the single entity at the top. I do not suggest that what is about to happen can be prevented. I am saying that this time around "International Socialism", not National Socialism, has won out, that there is nothing short of supernatural intervention that could stop it, and that "Nevilleism" is cowardly and despicable to me. It takes a yellow streak or a deceived intellect to call for appeasement of a bully.At this point I prefer to be accused of being a realist as opposed to being accused of being a pragmatist. In both cases we will have slavery but one presents the willingness to die for the cause of freedom as an option while the other presents the idea of docilely submitting to slavery. If I have failed to communicate this time around, it is due to lack of ability and not due to lack of effort.Not a pretty picture, I admit. Almost alone in this, yes. Willing to die for freedom, I pray. I thank you for asking for clarification. It does me good say what has been fomenting below the surface of my thoughts for quite some time.Only meKS Mr Gresham (9/17/01; 12:38:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 61753) A personal experience at ground zero this weekend http://ragingbull.lycos.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CLB00413&read=6238 NJ police sgt in the rescue effort... Netking (9/17/01; 12:30:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 61752) Galearis Sir Galearis(61743)Gold down, silver up The price of silver paper seems to be rising... $4.33 now and a steep up. Let's see if it holds.-----------------------------------------------------------Netking> Sir, as a person with wisdom how might you guess that Ag will play out in the weeks ahead of us? - Netking Belgian (9/17/01; 12:19:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 61751) @ Henri (KarenSue) A practical example : vertical imposing dollar versus horizontal free-choice euro.Each new EMU-member is free to join and to underwrite the agreements. Replacement of the local currency by the euro is done in an equalizing mode. Dollar friends/victims, must deliver goods and services against a local currency that must depreciate faster than the dollar and the same goes for their debt, to be serviced and made impossible to repay.TG's complete theory is in fact a suggestion to do something about getting things more horizontal, globally.Unfortunately, all imbalances and injustices are to be exploited by collectivists to abuse the fenomenon into other unworkable extremes. Reality is more often far away from theoretical idealistic dreams. That's why we always drift to troubled waters.Gold is imo, at the center of a coming transition period.Gold, the best tool for neutral arbitrage ! ? Mr Gresham (9/17/01; 12:18:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 61750) Ramp? About time for the 2 o'clock special, do I hear it steaming up in the station now?Someday our site will be jammed like others; should we have a mirror site or hidden page (not on main USAGold menu) that we quietly write down now, and repair to on those days?How are you doing today, Randy? Good to be in the thick of it on the days when the compression of unrecognized common sense is unwound, eh? I suppose I'll spend my next financial career years leading frugality seminars, helping people write simple household budgets, and working out credit card payoff schedules (with or without bankruptcy lawyers waiting in the wings) -- finding ways to be of service... Buena Fe (9/17/01; 12:18:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 61749) presents AG is giving the world a gift! By flooding the world with $'s and propping up the markets (all) he is giving everyone who can "escape the matrix" (mentally) an opportuntity to sell and buy gold!I suspect that supplies won't last very long. site steward (9/17/01; 12:11:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 61748) External shocks are rough on bubbles already strained by an economic downturn http://www.usagold.com/goldenchalkboard/gc_stockbubble.html Prior to Tuesday's attact, the bubbles were popping because the stock valuations couldn't be justified by any underlying economic fundamentals.Given that the market has been closed for four trading days, today's downdraft in prices seems little more than playing catch-up. That is to say, even without the attacks last week, if the markets had been open we may have very likely seen the Dow and Nasdaq reduced to today's levels, albeit through five days of small losses rather than all of them compacted into one day.It seems that today's numbers account only for the passage of time in a weak economy, and the economic disruptive effects of the attack are not yet being priced into the markets.Hold onto your hats, and balast your position with gold. The monetary officials are doing their level best to provide the appearance of calm within the financial markets, thus buying you and your neighbors precious time to reposition yourself accordingly. So count your blessings and do it -- no one else is going to do it for you (but Centennial can help!)United States toll free (800) 869-5115R. Mr Gresham (9/17/01; 12:00:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 61747) JPM's Large Numbers http://www2.fdic.gov/Call_TFR_Rpts/06302001/31/31rc-l.asp?pCert=637&pDocket=0&pcmbQtrEnd=06%2F30%2F2001&paddr=60+WALL+STREET++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++&pCity=NEW+YORK+CITY+++++++++++++++++&pStalp=NY&pzip5=10260&pInstitu Quite a long link, too. We'll see if it posts... goldfan (9/17/01; 11:54:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61746) wartime economics Following is a clip from Auerback at Prudentbear.comWhat do you suppose will be the effects, how soon? of all this forecast government intervention, if it happens? Which bubbles will balloon? Will collapsing stock market bubbles reflate? will US consumer spending take off again? Will we have super inflation? Will the USD go into free fall against other currencies? Will gold finally get more than a token of respect? Will there be sufficient chaos to force a complete revision of world economic rules, so as to have less instead of more regulation? Ha!!!>>>In wartime, markets do not operate freely. There is a tendency toward increased regulation and centralised, government-directed activity, (even those governments which, under normal circumstances, would normally champion the operation of free markets). Profit maximisation, returns on capital and investment, all of these otherwise laudable capitalist objectives are temporarily subsumed in the pursuit of a broader objective. Therefore, it is not fanciful to envisage significant intervention in the markets, on a scale not witnessed for years (if ever), as another policy outcome of the attack on US soil. The rapid extension of moral hazard over the past several years has already engendered a greater socialisation of risk and a correspondingly larger role for governments in the operations of the capital markets. Such intervention has uncomfortably co-existed with notions of free enterprise and market efficiency. Generally speaking, policy makers are robustly criticised when they are perceived to be interfering with the operation of the marketplace. In the context of a wartime economy, however, such intervention becomes more acceptable politically. What is criticised in peacetime as a reckless expansion of moral hazard is now seen as a patriotic and necessary response to a national crisis. With consumer confidence in the dumps, and a heightened sense of crisis accentuating an increasing predisposition to build up personal savings, global co-ordinated easing, and a possible support mechanism for the markets themselves, all become much easier to pursue politically. Similarly, even though we may lose the consumer in the short-term, (consequently, rendering the near term air pocket in economic activity dramatic), we may get to quicker resolution of the economic crisis if fiscal restraints are now broken open globally, as we suspect they must be to meet the military objective of stable G7 economies and financial markets.Ideally, these four elements would be combined into a co-ordinated global response to last Tuesday's outrage, which would parallel the united military strategy their leaders must now all devise. The hope of the authorities is that the aggregate effect of such actions would have an electrifying impact on business and financial confidence, largely negating the economic damage threatened by the attack. It is too early to judge how effective these measures will be; the extent of collateral damage to the exchanges, the loss of human capital, the prospective liabilities of the insurance companies, all of these have yet to be quantified adequately. What is clear is that the central bankers will take off their hair shirts. There will be no further talk about "irrational exuberance" or threats to take away the punch bowl. And governments of the G-7 will commit themselves to do all they can to confront the current threat to Western civilisation, regardless of the fiscal cost. The orthodoxies of fiscal rectitude and monetary restraint are no more.<<<<Goldfan Mr Gresham (09/17/01; 11:49:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 61745) Watching http://finance.lycos.com/home/livecharts/ Bearforum seems to be down. Bloomberg is hard to get into; once you have the home page, don't click off to articles, or you'll have to wait to get back in. Do you know about keeping multiple windows open? As our links here open them, keep them open, and keep each window on a site you want to update. At about 10 windows, my PC goes on red light warning on resource use, and I have to back out of some. Usually, I'll just reboot during the day, if I want to come back to multiple windows.Gold down, silver up. Are they having to pick their battles today? Which one they will sit on? There is still not a public recognition linking crisis with gold, but then, the physical dealers would be the ones to answer that.The quote.com link above takes up some processor power with continual update, but it's the most dramatic screen to watch I've found (delayed quotes, I believe). Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (09/17/01; 11:45:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 61744) Hard assets... Easy access! http://www.usagold.com/ProductsPage.html
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