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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/17/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

SHIFTY (1/17/2001; 21:37:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 45814)
Cavan Man / barnacle bill
DOW and NDQ Closing Averages
One average or the other will be up say, 68 and the other will be down 68 or so, like today.


That is what inspired the PONZI. One would be up 50 the other down 50 and each day or two it would reverse. Lots of smoke but they failed to go much higher.

In looking back to( SHIFTY (04/08/00; 00:12:28MDT - Msg ID:28297)
you can see just how far they have declined.

NASDAQ 4446.45 + DOW 11111.48 = 15557.93
15557.93 divided by 2 = 7778.96


The first Ponzi was and is still the all time Ponzi high.

:)

$hifty





barnacle bill (1/17/2001; 21:10:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 45813)
re: DOW and NDQ Closing Averages
I have not noticed it. Maybe the Plunge Protection Team has side bets running to see which team members can make the numbers match.

megatron (1/17/2001; 21:03:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 45812)
Thaigold
Do you remember exactly what days the SEC and CTRC chairmen are "resigning" (fleeing)? I think it was early FEB.

rc (01/17/01; 19:33:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 45811)
Gold hoards
@Peter Asher
Confidence for confidence, my own hoard consists of a few one oz Kruggerrand, Maple Leaf, Johnson-Mattheys and Engelhard ungots + a good portion of Silver 1oz Maple Leaf. All safely stashed away. We are definitely not big guys.

As for the confiscation, I don't think it posssible anymore. Common people have no trust anymore in their government. To try to confiscate their gold again will just provoque civil disobedience if not worse.

CoBra(too) (01/17/01; 19:32:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 45810)
@ Peter Asher
... Sir Peter,
I'm stunned to have to deliberate your, as I can only deduct, ethnical phrases, such as black- or brown out's, regarding the Peoples Republic if Kalifornia. A state spawning Golden Gates (Neither Bill, nor Nash) Bridge's across a soundless Sound; Mind you, never mindless, since Silicon Valley will be swamped by Silly Con Heights - always happened in these parts - as electricity was mis-taken for ethnicity.
Seriously - Sir Peter, don't take me for mis-connected ... I'm just mal-adjusted to survive powerless -
-cb - in distress 2!

PS: It's not starting - it's only the beginning of the
end game.


Peter Asher (01/17/01; 18:56:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 45809)
It's starting!
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/abc/20010117/ts/calif_officials_impose_rolling_blackouts_1.html

Wednesday January 17 06:52 PM EST

Calif. Officials Impose Rolling Blackouts

By ABCNEWS.com

For the first time in the state's months-long energy crisis, officials ordered power
companies to shut off electricity to parts of California.

After weeks of warnings, rolling blackouts became a reality for California
residents today when regulators ordered utility companies to turn off the
power to thousands of people in parts of the state.

The blackouts were ordered shortly before noon local time in areas of
northern and central California and affected between 200,000 to 500,000
Pacific Gas and Electric Co. customers in the San Francisco area, and
thousands more in Sacramento, Modesto and Turlock. California regulators
lifted the blackout order around 2 pm local time but said they planned to reissue the rolling
blackouts at around 5 pm during the peak power period. Terry Winter, the CEO of California's
Independent Systems Operator - which controls the power for most of the state - warned
consumers that they should find ways to cut back their power use or the blackouts could go
beyond today.

"I hate to say this, but if people don't conserve and really make a concerted effort to not use
power, we're right in the same situation tomorrow," Winter said.

San Francisco, Sacramento Affected

The blackouts are controlled by individual utilities which turn off circuits inb local eras for an
hour at a time. Downtown San Francisco felt the blackouts immediately as automated teller
machines shut down and at least two students got stuck in an elevator at Hastings School of Law.
Traffic lights went black in several San Francisco Bay communities, and people were seen
calling on their cell phones to check if their homes were without power. Others were making
calls to find out which restaurants were going to be without power so that they could make
proper dinner reservations. In a San Jose sandwich shop, lunch was served with the doors open
so that light could seep through.

Despite several close calls in recent weeks, today was the first time the Independent System
Operator had failed to scrounge enough electricity at the last minute to avoid outages. Utility
companies were trying to avoid cutting power to blocks with essential services such as
hospitals. Meanwhile, ISO officials said the blackouts are necessary to prevent other blackouts
in neighboring western states.

"We need to make sure that we do not drop below an unacceptable level and put the system at
risk, which would actually put the overall western United States at risk of a blackout," said Jim
Detmer, the ISO's managing director of operations.

Hipplebeck (01/17/01; 18:49:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 45808)
Cavan man
I know exactly what you are talking about. I think it is the professionals way of working the market to fleece the public.

CoBra(too) (1/17/2001; 18:40:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 45807)
@ CM - and a bit off topic ...again!
... the golden "liqua", or better coctail hour, or better described as the hour of Joschka Fischer, Germany's golden green SecState., hauling the great coctails of Molotow in 68 and getting away, while confessing to sway terror in the way of Cohn-the "Bendit" and Schmidt-Klein, the anti semit and raider of OPEC in Vienna. Well they only killed 3, to Joschka's glee, since the others were abducted to Algier's and obstructed the plans of Yamani!
So now we hear -terror is near and may be forgiven, if the need for political opportunity is a given - fact to keep the socialistic rule intact.
Molotow Joschka, was preaching to hate and debate, the Johnnie's come late to the conservative plate, as Austria has missed the times of the great Kohl's and Thatcher's, and was therefor abandoned to history, which condems the late!
Oh, well - getting off topic ever more - Mr. Schroeder, losing some of his staff to mad cow desease - was sore and may just want to ease the pressure on Joschka and release the same on - according to the WA - on the market of gold and blame the terrorists of (68-) old for ruining the standard of gold.
ALL told - the London pool of gold was solidly sold on behalf of the bold fiat paper stronghold. And to the end, spend another Cent, you can't afford to abort.
... und die Moral der Geschicht - glaub an keine Dollars nicht! - Kauf lieber Gold und bleib ihm treu, das sondert Wezen von der Spreu! (anyone interested in a translation please refer to cb2's copyright) - best to rest the case and test rest...




Cavan Man (1/17/2001; 18:35:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 45806)
DOW and NDQ Closing Averages
I've made this observation before and after the close today I must repeat. There have been many occasions where one average or the other will be up say, 68 and the other will be down 68 or so, like today. Does anyone else see this?

Hipplebeck (1/17/2001; 18:33:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 45805)
(No Subject)
I spent a couple of weeks in San Diego recently. The weather was perfect, but
way too crowded. I went down there to try to straighten out a friend who is
so caught up in gambling on the stock market and who has been smoking so much
crank that she is a mess. That part of the trip turned out to be a disaster.
After working out a plan to divest her positions, instead of selling stock
and working her way out of the market, she began short selling. I got so
upset I had to leave. Luckily my parents live up near L A so I spent the rest
of the time with them. That part of the trip was wonderful.
She has lost $900,000, yes, you read that right, $900,000 in less than a
year. After I got out of there, she shorted heavily and then when Greenspan
unexpectedly
raised rates, she was caught by surprise like everyone else. Ameritrade
cashed out her positions and now she owes them money. She is trying to sue,
but good luck, I think those brokers have themselves covered. Now she is
talking about cashing in some cds so she can play some more and get her money
back. She won't listen to reason, probably because of the speed she is
taking, so I guess she will have to lose everything before she wakes up. Sad.


Leigh (1/17/2001; 18:27:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 45804)
No, Miro, Wrong Station!
http://www.wmal.com
(This is a reply to Miro on Kitco): Dear Miro: You're thinking of WMAL-ABC radio in Washington. It is definitely not a National Public Radio station! National Public Radio is the PBS of the airwaves, and it has a definite liberal leaning. Your friend, Leigh (from Loudoun Co.)

Sorry, MK. I'm not registered at Kitco, but I wanted to clear this up for Miro.

Peter Asher (1/17/2001; 18:18:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 45803)
rc

ThaiGold is making jokes about our personal hoards. My huge stash of ten Eagles, ten Philharmonics, eleven 0.24 sovereigns, two .01 Phils and one 0.2 Angel is safely ensconced in the safety deposit box since pre Y2K. We felt if it came down hard, that rural homes could be targeted .

I personally believe there will no confiscation no matter what. This is based on the fact that in 1933 Gold was legal tender at a fixed price and in those days of meager worldly knowledge the population mostly was willing to accept FRN's without much protest. Back then, they didn't have a clue that they were being swindled out of an asset that was to be worth much more in the future. That is no longer the case. Trying to confiscate Gold now from vast hordes of gold holders and hoarders, who would be aware of where the POG would be headed in that event, would be met with full blown rebellion; in and out of court.

Leigh (1/17/2001; 17:55:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 45802)
WorldNetDaily Article on Gold
Wow, I was just looking over the WorldNetDaily article on gold. I said this morning that it was an advertisement, but you know what? It is listed as WorldNetDaily Exclusive Commentary!! That means they found Blanchard's research paper on 10 reasons to own gold so compelling that they printed it as a story! THAT is fantastic, and it's just possible that goldbug pressure on WND caused them to see the truth!

Trail Guide (1/17/2001; 17:48:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 45801)
Comments
Hello everyone!

Randy, between your posts and all the others I must make some time to discuss. I hope to be free most of tomorrow and friday,,,,,, will cover several topics including a general comment about MY's great formulation of the money world around us. Also, will explain what I tried to get across about Black Gold.

TrailGuide

slingshot (1/17/2001; 17:40:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 45800)
The Big Picture.
O.K. Lets see now.
Trucker crashes into state capitol steps.
Kalifornia has rolling blackouts.
O.P.E.C. cuts crude 1.5mb Go strategic reserve!
World Net Daily 10 reasons for gold. Words Out!
Gold and silver at bargain prices.
Three full page advertisement in my city paper
to buy gold and silver coins at 2-7 face value.

Do not attempt to adjust your television for the talking heads are doing their spin.
Can you see the Big Picture.

To ThaiGold. 10kw/d.c.storage battery/ inverter to
a.c. Need solar panel to battery to
maintain storage and decrease 10k.w.
run time. More bang for your buck.
SlingShot.

Pandagold (1/17/2001; 17:27:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 45799)
Europe's Century
Knowing both sides of the pond, but now living on the European side, I can say - ignore the rhetoric about there being much division in Europe. Ignore the doom and gloom on the 'sick' Euro.

Sure there are differences, and there is jockeying for positions, and there is some 'attempt at hanging on the 'the old', but, in spite of everything, Europe is on the move, and the EURO will be a strong currency, and Europe a great place to be for the forseeable future.

Europe is where it will all be happening. It's ALIVE! You can feel it.

Gold will start to firm once the Euro establishes a dollar parity ( I said 'establishes' not reaches) which won't be to long away. This has all been planned by 'the movers and shakers'. Britain WILL adopt the Euro - again, ignore the rhetoric to the contrary.

China will move close, economically, to Europe, and she will be instrumental in forming a close union of the Asian nations.

But, it will be Europe's century



Randy (@ The Tower) (1/17/2001; 16:49:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 45798)
The former SecTreas certainly is no mental midget
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010116/n16172008_2.html
Speaking to MSNBC, Robert Rubin said, "I think inevitably, when you've had an extended period of good times, imbalances and excesses develop ... and now we're going to have to have a period of unwinding until those imbalances and excesses work their way out of the economy." More importantly, he made this point: "I don't think there's any way to know whether this is going to be a soft landing or a hard landing."

Please appreciate also the deeper meaning in the Reuters article's concluding remark:
-----His advice to the incoming economic team of the Bush administration was to determine what contributed to the eight-year period of high growth rates and "try to stay on that path moving forward."-----

Meaning, he himself does not know even now, or is not giving it up -- you decide! But seriously, try this "contribution" on for size: inflationary practices coupled with blind investor confidence positioned most importantly against an international backdrop in which no one was willing to allow the U.S. "applecart" to be upset.

But with the successful launch of the euro, there is a whole new fruitstand in town. The institutional conditions necessary for the U.S. economic phenomenon of the past decade are now gone and the "good times" therefore should not be expected to continue as before. It is time to change horses if one is expecting to take the "path moving forward".

Call Centennial. They have fresh horses.

Cavan Man (1/17/2001; 16:44:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 45797)
@CB2
You can drink all the "liqa" down in Costa "Riqa" but it ain't nobody's business but your own! Cheers. I am having a glass of "dollarized" Chilean Merlot; not up to French Bordeaux standards but, a real thirst quencher after 700 miles!

rc (1/17/2001; 15:36:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 45796)
Black gold hoaders
@Thai Gold
In my mind neither you nor Peter are considered black gold hoarders. According to your definition I am one as well. So I am totally uninterested in your hoards. Be modest, it can't be enough as to change any trend in the gold price situation. I think you are goldbugs, unless otherwise stated. I believe that, a real goldbug won't sell his hoard unless he has a very strong incentive to do so. A 3,000% for exemple. And a real goldbug will never sell his ware when the price decrease unless he is in very, but very big trouble. Do you fit in such a scenario?

BTW what do you mean by White Gold? Whatever it is, I understand you are ready to get rid of it for a 100% profit. Not bad anyway. But, that way, you are certainly not going to depress the price of your white gold.

As for the gold sent by the French in Indochina : It could not have been very much considering that most French gold was already in the USA to pay for war supplies. Whatever the amount, it must have been confiscated by the Japanese who where cleaned dry by the Americans. So the most probable spot for that gold now must be in the USA.

What I call black gold hoard are such things like the Yamashita (hope the spelling is right) gold treasure, supposed to be stolen all over in Asia. To whom? Well! Suppose to be everywhere in Asia. It seems that Yamashita was a very frequent traveller. The amount varies according to the writer, from a few hundred tons to several thousand tons. As of late it seems that Marcos got his hand on at least part of that treasure. Still nobody has ever seen it. Rumors. While I agree that there must be some gold stashed somewhere in southern Asia, it doesn't, by a long shot, get close to the reported figures . And then, one more question. Do you believe such people are eager to get rid of their gold at these bargain prices? They must be philantropists.





Topaz (1/17/2001; 15:33:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 45795)
VanRip (1/16/2001; 12:22:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 45737)
Hi VanRip,
...and we thought Gold shorts were DENSE!
That project was (I believe) originally intended to de-couple the two Au Atoms - no mention made of success/failure in that area - keep watching, glimpse at the future.

Pandagold (1/17/2001; 15:17:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 45794)
2004

I was going through some investments mags which I had acccumulated over the last twelve months prior to throwing them out. I was amazed at how much that year 2004 cropt up in various articles as being some crucial time at which certain events on the financial world stage will come to fruition.

I wonder............

ORO (1/17/2001; 15:12:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 45793)
Randy - Figures of gold in antiquity
Randy, to put this in perspective of time, 1300 is a very late date to start collecting statistics on gold. Europe, in which these statistics were collected was just over (or close to) its low point in population, economic activity, and definitely in commerce, where gold was used most intensively (silver was the main metal of trade within Europe of the time, gold was used mostly in "international" trade).

The bulk of commerce was in the far East, on the Southern coast of the Mediterranean, and within the Americas. Europe was but a spec on the map of global commerce in the late Roman and early Middle ages. Only the end of Byzantine supremacy, once challanged by the New Zoroastrian Mohammed, gave Europe a rise in relative importance.

It should also be noted that by the time there were government mints, there were also mintages of gold and silver substituting for them. There was a PBS program about American coinage recently that shows the huge variety of coins and notes issued by the government, banks, and mining companies during the Civil War. Nary a copper was to be found as the coin shortage demonstrated Gresham's law to perfection. Metal was hoarded, notes of all kinds were used in trade, and none expected payment in full by either of the sides to the conflict. Notes were discounted to face value, and prices skyrocketed in terms of government and bank notes. The great curiosity was the trade coinage, where companies minted their own coinage rather than provide the raw materials to the mint. Though no reason was provided in the program, I would hazard to guess that none would trust government to return hard currency (coin) for anything provided to the mint.

This same issue holds in warring Europe of the time late middle ages and on. It would have been foolhardy to come to the mint, as the strapped treasuries of all principalities made any and all attempts to fund their aggression or defense. Europe was not a place where one would admit to owning anything of value if it were not behind tall walls and protected by armed guards and soldiers.

Furthermore, Europe and the Mediterranean have leaked gold and silver into the Orient since time immemorial. Up to the late 19th century, the tradesmen of the West had nothing but gold and silver to trade with the Far East. Even today, the pattern continues to some extent despite all manner of financial inventions and political coercion. As a result, Europe and the Mediterranean were forever losing gold. Thus when Rome lost its gold mines in Sardinia, Egypt, and elsewhere, and had been minting gold coins with nearly no gold content for years on end, the Western Empire collapsed. The Eastern Empire continued on in a fixed social and religious society where there was no change for 5 centuries, slowly depleting its remaining grandeur. Silks continued flowing from the Far East, and precious stones came with them, gold continued flowing the other way. After the fall of the Western Empire, the times of widespread gold use in Europe were well over, and were just coming back by the 1300s, as the Crusades brought trade back to Europe.

To give the lie to the 150 tonne estimate, Byzantine Emperor Anastasius I raised the Imperial hoard BY 160 tonnes during his reign. Due to the early Emperors of the East retaining control of the African gold mines (Egyptian and Ethiopian, and West African), and the rather frugal government practices they inherited from Constantine I, the currency – the Solidus of 0.2 ounces of gold (re the 20 Franc gold piece) remained just the solid gold coin that it was throughout the Eastern Empire's heyday till Islam attacked. The lack of inflation had kept trade in "good money" going on at the best terms of trade throughout the 5th to the 10th centuries.

Needless to say, if the Imperial hoard could be increased by 160 tonnes in one lifetime with only a simple tax, the gold in use through that period within the Byzantine provinces alone must have been that much greater in volume. Wealthy Western Romans, the few remaining by then, moved their fortunes to the East as well as they were able. They were part of the drainage of wealth from the Italian peninsula.

Since banking at that time was not a substantial practice, the amounts of gold circulating had to be great multiples of the Imperial coffers. What the multiple was? I wouldn't know. I can venture a guess that natural cash balance preferences have not changed much till the 1800s and guess that it was on the order of one to two times average annual income, and having a tax rate of 10% to 20% would bring the gold quantity circulating to 300 tonnes (treasury holdings after Anastasius’ death) divided by 10% to 20% and times one to two - giving some 1500 to 6000 tonnes, and in any case having been in the range of around 4000 tonnes, +100%, -50%. The figure assumes that one year's taxes were kept on hand at his death. Byzantium was very much agriculturally driven and thus highly seasonal in tax revenue, thus providing an incentive to hold a hoard sufficient to cover this tax revenue.

Furthermore, it should be noted that during this period, Attila the Hun was bribed by the Eastern Emperor not to attack, by making payments in gold. The gold was taken back east of the Steppes where it would eventually trade for the silks, spices and gems of South East Asia, China and India. These are the end points for gold and silver, and forever were so. Likely, this will continue as it always has.

This is on top of the Persian Susanaite's hoards, those of the Thai and Viet nations, and of China, the various Indian states, and the Spice Islands, not to speak of the South American gold. .Remembering that the latter were recipients of gold flows from pre-Helenic days going back to the Old Kingdom of Egypt, and pre-Babylonian times of Ashur.

Again, the problem with taking data from the various Royal mints is that seldom were the Royal tax men far away from the mint, and taking gold there was a rather dangerous affair most of the time. Furthermore, gold coins circulated for centuries after their mint dates, thus making the mint's operations minor relative to outstanding gold, and not at all telling of anything but for a perhaps minor portion of the gold supply.

Large holders and traders of gold used bars for trade rather than coins, and would not have had a need to go to the mint in the first place. This is true today as it ever was. When the conquistadors were collecting gold and shipping it to Spain, they only minted into coin the ammounts spent locally and in transport, the rest was melted into bars and shipped in this form.




Pandagold (1/17/2001; 15:11:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 45792)
Saddam's crock

You.ve got to admire the guy. You can see why 'they' wanted him out of the way. It would have been so much easier doing business, and getting your own way, with a house-trained puppet


WEDNESDAY JANUARY 17 2001

The Gulf War: Ten years on

Multinationals circle around Saddam's crock of gold

BY CARL MORTISHED, INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS EDITOR

IRAQ is the crock of gold for oil multinationals and no one should be surprised that Shell is flirting with the regime that guards the world's second-largest oil reserves.
Iraq is exporting a tiny fraction of its potential output, its exports restrained in part by lack of investment but also by presidential diktat. Under the UN oil-for-food programme, the country can export some 2.3 million barrels per day, but at present the state oil marketing organisation (Somo) is demanding illegal kickbacks of 40 cents per barrel. Exports are down to almost a quarter of normal levels as big oil companies shy away from the dubious deals, leaving only a trickle entering the market.

For the Iraqi President, oil exports are a carrot and stick to wave next week at the new man in the White House. It is an irony appreciated by Saddam Hussein that most of Iraq's oil ends up in US refineries. With a wave of the presidential hand, Iraq could pump an extra 1.5 million barrels into the market, causing prices to plummet, confounding Opec's price strategists but delighting American motorists.

Iraq could export much more still and it is the bigger prize that entices Shell and others such as TotalFinaElf. Thierry Desmarest, the French company's chairman, has his pen poised over a contract to develop Majnoon and Nahr Umar. These oilfields alone could yield 1 million barrels per day if sanctions are lifted.

Iraq has proven reserves of 112 billion barrels — about half of Saudi Arabia's known resources — but oil analysts reckon that the true picture is several times that level.

"With full exploration of the Western Desert, Iraqi reserves could easily double, bringing them up to Saudi Arabia's level," Julian Lee, of the Centre for Global Energy Studies, said. He believed that the country could double production rates quite quickly, with a large number of oilfields explored and mapped but undeveloped.

For oil companies that expect to drill ten dry wells for every success, such certainty is mouth-watering and Iraqi oil is onshore and therefore cheap to produce.

Apart from TotalFinaElf, Russian and Chinese oil companies are the most active negotiators in Iraq.

American oil companies will not even show their noses in Baghdad while sanctions prevail and a big cut in Opec production this week will put pressure on the US President to secure energy supplies for Americans.




CoBra(too) (1/17/2001; 15:00:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 45791)
Randy and MK - it's awesome -
... almost nothing to add!
... except "I've got the liquor, but the Sheriff got it quicker... let's see, shan't we? cb 2 a degree ...

Randy (@ The Tower) (1/17/2001; 14:26:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 45790)
Best lessons are often the simplest: Dollars are everywhere...these coins are not.
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
...you either have them, or you don't (at ANY price). ---End of lesson.
-------
Given the current economic backdrop, can you envision a sudden surging future demand for dollars? I cannot. Dollar flight and gold demand is the more likely.

This is why tangible gold is held by people and by central banks alike...because past earnings of wealth are too valuable to be entrusted to guardianship by paper currency units.

Cavan Man (1/17/2001; 13:58:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 45789)
Imperial Sugar Company Files For Bankruptcy
"Imperial Sugar Company, the number one US sugar producer, filed for chapter 11 protection from creditors tuesday amid heavy debt the company has blamed on heavy losses and high costs for energy and raw materials."

Excerpted from today's St. Louis Post Dispatch

I am beginning to see many references in print to the corporate debt problems cited by PIMCO. Also, the FT today has a number of interesting articles. I do believe, whoever is pulling everybody's strings (in Europe), is positioning the puppets out of harm's way. I do believe FOA is authentic.

The Hoople (1/17/2001; 13:31:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 45788)
Housing starts,permits tomorrow 8:00
One of the most highly anticipated housing report comes out tomorrow. Even with the December month being the most heavily "seasonaly adjusted" some are thinking 5-7 % down. I think the actuals could be 12 - 20 % off judging by all I know. Interesting Home Depot is selling off just prior,could smart money have a whiff already? Stay tuned

Randy (@ The Tower) (1/17/2001; 12:02:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 45787)
That MK guy sure knows what he is talking about! We see it here...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010117/n17200813_2.html
From Reuters: "O'Neill acknowledged that the first line of defense against economic weakness was monetary policy, controlled by the Fed, not fiscal policy."

See this, in case you have been sleeping for weeks:
"Two weeks ago, the Fed launched its first strike against the recent sharp slowdown in the economy -- a surprise cut of half a percentage point in the two key rates it controls. The Fed was concerned that production and sales were slowing too rapidly and consumer confidence was waning."

To be sure, the U.S. will NOT be allowed to follow in the footsteps, repeating the Japanese experience. Therefore...

"We shall have the hyperinflation."

ian451 (1/17/2001; 12:01:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 45786)
truck driver (grasshopper) runs amok
It was here in the People's Republic of California. I believe it was just as the assembley was getting out. I got my latest power bill from PG&E, perhaps he did too.

At $11.74, it was nothing to write home about. Just shows what a bit of conservation can do. I throw on a polar fleece when it gets chilly rather than turning on the heat, never use the dishwasher, and turning out the lights when I'm not in the room. The laptop (always on) uses little power, and for kicks I've been cooking on the coleman propane stove rather than the apartmrnt's electric one. Used the money I saved to pick up a little more of the shiney stuff.

Randy (@ The Tower) (1/17/2001; 11:47:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 45785)
One step closer to "euro"
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010117/n17436367_2.html
The several pieces of the puzzle are found here...put them in place to see an early picture of the future taking shape.

HINT: You need focus on this primary issue--Whose debt HAS it been (institutionally, that is) as the key, and with whose debt shall it now be substituted?

Two related thoughts to ponder:

"We cannot both hold the same breath of air."

-AND-

Shall we save the banks, sir?
"We shall have the hyperinflation."
Excellent choice, sir.

Randy (@ The Tower) (1/17/2001; 11:20:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 45784)
Excellent! Here is only a small excerpt from MK's FULL report today
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
(accessible via the URL given above)

". . . As a result, Treasury policy occurs at the margin with a universe of political possibilities that can't possibly be covered at Senate hearing except possibly in the here and now. More often than not, it is the perception of Treasury policy that is important -- the public relations angle -- more so than any "policy" per se.
. . . . . But the only dollar policy that matters is the one that starts with the Fed -- its policy on currency issue. . . . As reported here regularly the Greenspan Fed has created vast seas of green currency which have floated the equity markets of the world including our own. But these dollars have also fueled an international inflation the likes of which has never before been seen on this planet.
+
Monetary policy does not "occur." It "haunts." And though the nations of the world can juggle their interest rates and thus the value of their currency relative to the dollar, if they do so while inflating the issue of their own currency, all they have done is masked that "haunting" and subjected themselves to the inflationary policies of the Fed. All the world's citizens -- save those of deflation ridden Japan -- will see their currencies deteriorate against goods and services as a result.
+
So much the better for gold, which is not subject to this sort of gamesmanship, but gamesmanship of a different sort which has a predictable conclusion. You cannot restrict the value of a commodity without eventually causing supply tightness, demand growth and eventually a price explosion. ... There comes a day of reckoning..."
-----------------------

Let me assure you that this small glimpse I have offered does not do proper justice to conveying the quality of the report in full--and of the many others like it offered regularly at the **Commentary & Review** page reserved as a service for Centennial's clients and subscribers.

If you have an interest in gold or in keeping informed on the gold market but have not yet established a business relationship with Centennial Precious Metals, I urge you to consider beginning your tax-deductible subscription today. Then, let Centennial help you diversify your paper-dominated portfolio by putting the lasting power of gold into your hands.

Journeyman (1/17/2001; 10:22:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 45783)
Could it have been an ant? @Peter Asher msg#: 45754

Sir Peter!

Could that truck-driver been an ant a bit upset at being robbed to support grasshoppers? He showed up at the door of the organization who does such robberies!

And, which state-capital was it, if you could indulge my curiosity?

Regards,
Journeyman


Journeyman (1/17/2001; 9:37:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 45782)
Bush's Sec. of Treas. O'Neil changes mind, supports strong dollar @ALL

CNBC reports this morning that Bush's Secretary of Treasury designate O'Neil testified that he will support the strong dollar policy of his predecessors.

Perhaps they've been brought up to speed on the dangers of foreigners unloading dollar denominated everythings once the value of the dollar is perceived to be dropping relative to those foreigners' own "home" fiat currencies - - - OR gold.

Perhaps the fact that Bush Sr.'s James Baker III had weakened the dollar to "good" effect and "Dubya" proposed a known "strong dollar" opponent as Treas. Sec. got media play necessitates "counter propaganda." Or perhaps they now see (after Bush's te-ta-tay with Greenspan) that there's no safe way to weaken the dollar? At least not directly in the glare of public scrutiny.

Regards,
Journeyman


Journeyman (1/17/2001; 9:14:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 45781)
Double Standard? @Black Blade, ALL

LONDON (FTMW) -- Some observers, like analyst Ken Landon at
Deutsche Bank in Tokyo, believe the metal's [gold] drop to a low
of $263.50 this week is good news for financial markets. At that
price, *GOLD HAS LOST 8 PERCENT OF ITS VALUE IN DOLLARS IN THE
PAST YEAR.* -Thom Calandra, Gold's fading allure, FT
MarketWatch.com [from Black Blade (1/17/2001; 6:20:41MT -
usagold.com msg#: 45775)
http://www2.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?nu=1&source=blq/y
hoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B3A1FCDE9%2DBD28%2D4886%2D9481%2DD6DC2C75C80
8%7D

- *The dollar at its low was down 11 yen, at 120.3 yen per dollar
from 132 yen per dollar yesterday. *THIS IS BETTER
THAN AN 8% DROP IN THE DOLLAR, THE BULK OF THIS HAPPENING IN
ABOUT THREE MINUTES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.* This is an
"astounding drop" in the world's largest currency.
_-MSNBC etc., 7 October, 1998 _ -"This is the biggest one
day dollar drop in 25 years." _-Kathy Jones, Prudential
Securities, 7 October, 1998_

The Contrast: Paper-gold (even manipulated) loses 8% of it's
value in one year. The dollar loses 8% of it's value "in about
three minutes in the middle of the night." This is why - - -

They [much of Europe and the Middle East] do not see any
advantage in holding the currency bonds of one country, as a
reserve asset of future payment, over holding physical gold as a
reserve asset in full payment. The fact that the debt reserve
asset pays interest is little more than a joke in
these banking circles. *Any paper currency, the dollar
included, can fall in exchange value against your local
currency far more than the interest received!* ...
_<http://www.usagold.com/ANOTHER_PAGE.html>_-FOA (Friend Of
Another), 17 Sep 1998, (fwd) from USAGOLD.COM

AND it can happen A LOT FASTER! -j.

Regards,
Journeyman


SHIFTY (1/17/2001; 9:06:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 45780)
tedw
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21363
Todays best investment: Gold
Analysts cover 10 reasons to purchase precious metal in today's market

Good story.

Thanks

$hifty




Perplexed (1/17/2001; 8:54:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 45779)
HOLTZMAN


Hello My Friend


No umbrage taken, at least by me. It was just an opportunity on my part to tell, as Paul Harvey would say "The Rest of the Story" or at least the story as perceived by some of us on this side of the pond.

There is no reason to feel that your post is no longer deserving of HOF recognition, nor that you should in the future walk on egg shells.

I, like you can only present one point of view, and I certainly harbor no delusions that mine is always correct.

I was disturbed by what I considered an overreaction by HBM
to your previous post, and was preparing a response, when Peter Asher posted his, which I considered the ultimate incapsulation of the problems inherrent in opening the forum to specific interpretation of any of the various religious beliefs. Again, Thanks Peter.

I, you, and many more of the participants appreciate the fact that our religious (or lack thereof) beliefs color the interpretation of every scrap of information which is processed by our brain, is reflected in our correspondence, and thus without specifics, is itself important information.

As most of the long time members realize, The Declaration of Indpendence is my passion.

While this forum is dedicated to economic matters, with an accent of gold, I have stated that in my view the problem confronting not only this nation, but the world, is a governmental system, which, with periodic tweaking, dates back perhaps 10,000 years.

That system is now in the process of collapsing around our ears, and gold is only one of the many balls that "Merlin" must keep floating. When one hits the ground, this circus has just finished its run.

So while you express confidence in the eventual stability of our political system, I see a house of prostitution, fulfilling James Madisons statement that "Democracy is the most vile of governments, and generaly is a violent in its end, as it is short in its duration," right before my eyes.

We fought a war against a government ordained of God, if you believe the propoganda, and justifed the killing of the Kings troops with the statement "That all men are created equal."

This was both religious and governmental blasphemy of a system which dictated that some are created Kings and others slaves. Some make the law and others are "subjects of" or subjected to laws over which they have no say.

To compound the blasphemy, Jefferson then added "governments are created by men, deriving just power from the consent of the goverened."

Conditions at the time precluded the establishment of this government in its entirity. It's not possible to stop a train moving at 90 miles per hour in its tracks, and neither was it possible to instantiously counteract forces which had been common practice for thousands of years, merely by declaring them to be wrong.

It has taken us a little over 200 years and several wars including, as you mentioned, one fought amoung ourselves to free enough of the minds of current generations to at last establish this government of individual soveriegns. In my opinion we are on the cusp of this event.

This portion of land was not only blessed with every element required to be self sustaining, but was, and continues to be blessed with forward thinking and courageous people from every corner of the globe.

As you pointed out it seems that Americans possess a knack for finding solutions to problems with the potential of destroying the unity of the nation.

We have just finished celebrating the achievements of Martin Luther King, a later day patriot, without whose contributions the cohesion of this nation could not have survived.

Contributions toward individual soveriength paid for with his blood, a price common to many other freedom fighters, not only in this nation but worldwide.

Holtzman you are a self described Apiest, I am a self described Diest, and there is not a day goes by that I do not reflect upon my good fortune.

I can envision no better heaven than being given a beautiful building site, everything required in its construction, the ability and opportunity to construct anything I choose, the freedom to enjoy it, a family of love and a mind that gives me instant access to my creator, and above all the conciousness to recognize and appreciate.

This in my opinion is worth doing everything within my power to extend to following generations.

It will not happen immediately nor will it occur without hardship and the shedding of more blood, however, when it happens within this nation, those nations who do not follow will soon find themselves in the modern day equivilant of the stone age.




ThaiGold (1/17/2001; 7:30:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 45778)
Laos: Black Gold
Attn: Peter Asher / Anyone
Do you recall, here in the Forum, about Spring of 1998, there
were a couple of posts mentioning "off to Laos to check up on
some highly secret discoveries of rare Black Gold".?.

At the time, it went mostly unnoticed by us and no further comments or questions were posted by anyone about it.
We of course were unfamiliar with that terminology and most
thought it was a new geological form of the element gold. And
brushed it aside mentally as scientific nonsense.

Now, we learn of the French having supposed shipped all their
later to be, Black Gold to "Indochina" circa WWII for saftey(?).
Laos; Cambodia; and Vietnam were at that time Colonial
possessions of France collectively known as French-Indochina
and so maybe there's something to all this that we missed.

Laos, today, remains a relatively "closed" society, still under
a tight Communist form of Government, and doesn't report any
gold reserves to the WGC. They (Laos) remain quite aloof and
independent from China; Vietnam; and formerly USSR control
or benevolent relationships. Possibly that Black Gold, if they
still have it, allows them to remain secure in their isolation. It
may pay-the-bills as they dribble it out in underground ways.

If anyone in the Forum was/is or recalls the Laos/Black Gold
postings, lets try to paste them back into this new discussion.

ThaiGold




ThaiGold (1/17/2001; 6:44:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 45777)
Duck Hunting Season
Attn: Black Blade
If it walks like a duck; and talks like a duck...
Be careful. It might be a politician in flight.
Shoot anyway, ... Just in case.


Black Blade (1/17/2001; 6:24:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 45776)
RE: ThaiGold
Sounds to me like you could become one big cozy warm happy Ant! ;-) Cheers, off to slaughter some ducks, only 3 more days left till duck season ends.

Black Blade (1/17/2001; 6:20:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 45775)
Gold's fading allure
http://www2.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?nu=1&source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B3A1FCDE9%2DBD28%2D4886%2D9481%2DD6DC2C75C808%7D

Metal's drop may bode well for stocks, bonds
By Thom Calandra, FT MarketWatch.com

LONDON (FTMW) -- As the Romans used to say, fire tests gold, adversity tests strong men. There's plenty of adversity for gold investors these days. The price of the metal at $265 an ounce has left the shares of gold mining companies in tatters. Some observers, like analyst Ken Landon at Deutsche Bank in Tokyo, believe the metal's drop to a low of $263.50 this week is good news for financial markets.

At that price, gold has lost 8 percent of its value in dollars in the past year. "The 8 percent decline in gold since January 2000 tells me that inflation is headed lower in 2001, which is a welcome change from the uptick in inflation in 2000," Landon says from Tokyo. "All else equal, a decline in inflation will be bullish for U.S. stocks and bonds this year."

Indeed, Landon believes the decline in gold's price to a 16-month low means that most investors believe President-elect Bush's pick for U.S. Treasury secretary, Paul O'Neil, will continue a strong-dollar policy. A strong dollar generally discourages investors from buying gold. Yet for all the gloomy signs for gold, some signs are appearing for a sustained rally of the metal, and for depressed gold mining stocks.

Gold, of course, is that soft, chemically inert metal that for almost 3,000 years has been used as a form of trading currency and worshipped -- by Rome, Constantinople, Greece, and of course, Ivana Trump. Gold's price 20 years ago climbed to $800 an ounce after inflation scares around the globe. It's been downhill ever since.

That may be about to change. First off, we're seeing rising demand for gold. Physical demand from Arab countries, India and elsewhere is exceeding mine supplies by more than 20 percent. Next is price. Gold is close to a 20-year low. Can it go lower? Sure. But many companies, like South Africa's Anglogold (AU) , the world's largest gold miner, and California's Homestake Mining (HM) , have tightened their belts by slashing production and marketing costs. Which leads us to consolidation. Of late, there have been very few gold mining mergers. More change is on the way. Salomon Smith Barney's analysts in New York expect a wave of cross-border combinations in coming years. "The takeover of Battle Mountain by Newmont Mining (NEM) , and he proposed merger between Franco-Nevada (of Canada) and Goldfields Ltd. (of South Africa) (GOLD) may signal a scramble for partners," Salomon's precious metal researchers said in a year-end 2000 report.

And finally, there's the dollar. If the U.S. dollar slips against major currencies, gold will benefit as a financial haven. Some see the dollar's decline against the euro in the past several weeks as a harbinger of dollar weakness. Gold bugs like to point out that there are only 125,000 tons of the metal above ground in one form or another. Much of it is in the vaults of central banks. The amount of steel or aluminum produced each year dwarfs gold's limited supply. Salomon Smith Barney sees a massive deficit" in the gold market - physical demand for the metal exceeding mine supplies and gold scrap.

Such a deficit comes as demand increases from Arab countries, which are using their greater oil prices to buy the metal for jewelry and for investment, some analysts say. The gap in supplies also is happening in the face of regular central bank sales of gold, led by the Bank of England. In a Washington agreement in September 1999, 15 European banks effectively stated their levels of future gold auctions and lending.

If the world sees a global recession this year, or greater inflation, investors could rush to the metal and to gold companies. A 30 percent move in the price of an ounce of the dense metal could double the prices of stocks such as Newmont Mining, Barrick Gold (ABX) and Anglogold. Gold stocks, as seen in a five-year chart of the Philadelphia Gold-Silver Index above, are depressed beyond belief.

Not everyone is crazy for gold. Larry Edelson, editor of The Safe Money Report in Florida, sees the price of the metal flirting with a steep drop. Look for a test of $252. If that breaks, you can expect gold to fall to my long-term target of $225," Edelson says. "Silver looks horrible too. " Landon, senior currency strategist for Deutsche Bank in Tokyo, says, "If you assume a climate of disinflation, then I would say that the price of gold will not go up, but would go down."

Black Blade: Uh-Oh! Thom Caladra is "dissing" gold ;-) Yeah, just what we need. More bearish gold articles. OK, not entirely bearish.


tedw (1/17/2001; 6:18:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 45774)
Todays best investment: Gold
http://www.usagold.com
Article in Todays worldnetdaily at worldnetdaily.com

ThaiGold (1/17/2001; 6:08:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 45773)
Electricity; Yeti; Black Gold; and other Myths
Attn: Black Blade (1/17/2001; 5:24:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 45769)
Black Blade:

You wrote:
[snip]
No one has even prepared for the inevitable. Gold, real estate, etc. are tops, also get out of debt while you can, and Y2K-style gear is not a bad idea either. We watch Kalifornia and make fun of them as Grasshoppers, but they are only the most visible so far.
[unsnip]

During the winter of Y2K, I installed a 10KW diesel alternator
and 450 gallon storage tank at my remote off-grid ThaiRanch
in (yuk) Northern Kalifornia's mountains. Much to my delight,
I found that I could generate my own electricity and store it
as DC in the Battery Bank, then invert it back into 120 AC to
meet whatever power needs were required. And the cost was
far less per KWH (KiloWatt Hour) than that charged to grid
users in the not-so-nearby surrounding PG&E homesites.

Perhaps the answer to the future.?.
Does that make me a Grasshopper, an Ant or a Sasquatch.?.

ThaiGold






ThaiGold (1/17/2001; 5:40:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 45772)
Hoary Hoards for the Hordes
Attn: rc (1/17/2001; 5:26:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 45770)
rc:

You want proof of Black Gold hoards.?.
I think Peter is not about to disclose all his holdings to you.

However, I can offer to you, as much of my Black Gold hoard
that you'd care to buy, and at only for twice the COMEX/Spot
price of White Gold. Is that a bargain, or what.!.

But please do not ask to purchase any of my Black Silver. I
need to polish it first.

ThaiGold


ThaiGold (1/17/2001; 5:29:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 45771)
Only Three More PPT Days
...Time is Short for the Shorts...
The Clinton Administration's PPT (Plunge Protection Team)
has only three more business days.
After that... It'll be the BPPT.?.

Was it Ted Butler that reported and complained strongly to
an unreceptive CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Commish)
that there were only four big-players holding a massive short
position in the Silver (yuk.. there's that word again) Futures
Market (COMEX) that exceeded the entire silver mine output
capabilities of all the functioning Silver mines in existance.?.

Do you suppose those Shorties are getting a bit jittery as the
Bush transistion may put some backbone in the lethargic
see-no-evil CFTC under new management Jan 20 2001.?.

Just looking for possible reasons the why s-word is going up.

ThaiGold


rc (1/17/2001; 5:26:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 45770)
Unrecorded Gold hordes
@Peter Asher
I agree with your sentence : unrecorded gold hordes. Do you mean hoards?

IMHO the evidence of such hoards are so flimsy as to be irrelevant. I just can't take them into account. To believe that such hoards really exist, I need some more solid proof.

Black Blade (1/17/2001; 5:24:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 45769)
It's not just in Kalifornia either
NEWS BRIEFS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Power is so tight in the Pacific Northwest that Bonneville Power Administration, the region's biggest supplier, is faced with a potential shortfall of 3,000 Mw, while the regionwide deficit amounts to an estimated 400-600 Mw. If Washington, Idaho, and Oregon experience a normal winter and no generating plants are out of service, the area will 'squeak' through the winter season, says Mike Hansen, spokesman for BPA.

From Steven King's PetroDispatch (Hey, ya gotta like a guy who has a "Black Gold Portfolio")

Anticipated warmer weather again caused US natural gas prices to dip, NYMEX natural gas for February delivery declined 23.6¢ to rest at $8.47/Mcf. The commodity focus is on a week-long price rally ahead of the OPEC meeting this week expected to slash crude supplies. At the meeting in Vienna on Wednesday, the producers' cartel is expected to agree to slice crude output to shore up sliding oil prices ahead of lower spring demand. Consensus among cartel members is growing for a cut of at least 1.5 million bpd, or around five percent. "All our figures indicate that there has been oversupply of crude over the past few months and stocks at the level of the consumer have risen sharply," OPEC Secretary-General Ali Rodriguez said on Monday in Vienna. U.S. Energy Secretary Bill Richardson in Paris on Friday said $30 a barrel, the current price of New York crude, was not an acceptable price. Richardson has been touring the Gulf Arab states to persuade cartel members not to slash supplies when the group meets. However, he is ineffectual. "We do not believe that cuts in production are needed," he told a news conference in Kuwait after talks in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the UAE and Kuwait. "But we are realistic and recognise that there might be some modest cuts. We have asked for as small a cut as possible, this is being considered by OPEC ministers." Kuwait's Oil Minister Sheikh Nasser al-Sabah, often seen as a price hawk, said a cut of 1.5 million bpd, a figure supported by OPEC kingpin Saudi Arabia, was "acceptable." Iran, Venezuela and Indonesia weighed in on Monday to push for a cut of at least 1.5 million bpd.

Black Blade: I still submit that this energy crisis is the trigger that will begin a cascade effect on the economy. It is only beginning, and it will be brutal. Hard assets will be key. We will be very lucky if it is as tame as the 1970's energy crisis. No one has even prepared for the inevitable. Gold, real estate, etc. are tops, also get out of debt while you can, and Y2K-style gear is not a bad idea either. We watch Kalifornia and make fun of them as Grasshoppers, but they are only the most visible so far. This problem has been brewing across the nation for nearly 20 years and is finally bubbling to the surface. Wealth preservation is key, and PMs are portfolio insurance.



Black Blade (01/17/01; 05:10:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 45768)
Commissar Davis of the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia Solve Crisis with Stroke of Pen!
BAKER HUGHES RIG COUNT FOR WEEK ENDED JAN. 12:

Natural gas rigs working in the US and Canada: 886, up 24 over previous week and up 248 over the same period a year ago.

Black Blade: Not enough rigs to alleviate the crisis. Going to be some cold winters over the next few years and a lotta frozen Grasshoppers.

California Gov. Gray orders 5% cut in power use
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fulfilling a US Energy Department mandate, California Gov. Gray Davis said the state will cut peak demand 5% -- or 1,600 Mw -- "within the week." US Energy Sec. Bill Richardson included the conservation measure as a condition for extending an emergency order requiring electricity generators to continue providing power to California. Under the order, the California Independent System Operator (ISO) must submit a progress report to the Energy Department by Tuesday. The reductions cannot include power saved
during curtailments by interruptible load customers who agree to having their electricity cut off in exchange
for lower rates.

Richardson initially ordered 75 generators and marketers in the West to sell surplus power for $64/Mw-hr to California, when the ISO declares an emergency. He issued the order after some generators declined to sell power for fear they wouldn't get paid by California's cash-strapped utilities. Negotiations, meanwhile, are continuing among Gray, federal government representatives, and power industry executives on how to resolve the state's electricity crisis. The parties are attempting to craft a solution that includes buying power in the future under long-term contracts and resolving a cash flow crisis for Pacific Gas & Electric Co. and Southern California Edison Co. that has brought the two investor-owned utilities to the brink of bankruptcy. In a statement, Gray said the conservation measures will reduce strain on the electric power grid and reduce the state power bill.

Provisions in the plan include: A reduction of energy use by the Department of Water Resources, one of the state's largest users of electricity. The agency will cut its peak load by at least 450 Mw-hr and up to 1,200 Mw-hr under certain conditions. The agency also will supply up to 150 Mw of power during peak load hours.

¨ Reductions at peak of 200 Mw in energy use by state government, including prisons, state office buildings, and the University of California and California State University system. The General Services department will shut down lights and heating and air conditioning systems at 5:30 p.m., reducing electrical consumption by 40% at peak. In addition, 50 Mw will be saved by continuing operations of state-controlled cogeneration plants and running existing emergency generators throughout the state during emergencies.

-- Stepped up coordination with federal agencies with California facilities to coordinate emergency load
reduction efforts by the University of California and California State University systems.

-- A California Energy Commission-led effort to reduce peak load reductions by cities and counties by 300 Mw.

-- A statewide public outreach campaign coordinated by the Consumer Affairs department and state departments to promote energy efficiency through newsletters, letters, web sites, and public forums. The state also will launch a publicity program with the California Science Center to reach its more than 1.3 million visitors, and conduct education campaigns with other museums and institutions.

Black Blade: Yeah, that'll work. Good Luck!



Leigh (01/17/01; 05:08:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 45767)
Gold Investing Headline at WorldNetDaily
"Today's best investment: Gold"
(It's only an advertisement, but it makes a great headline! Thanks, Blanchard!)

ThaiGold (01/17/01; 04:32:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 45766)
Ooops: Math Error
...Sorry...
It's late. Silver POS was up 1% Tuesday, not 10% as I wrote.


ThaiGold (01/17/01; 03:58:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 45765)
Silver: Drumming it Up Again
Reference to: ThaiGold (01/15/01; 02:22:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 45671)
All:

Two days ago, I posted several url/links to some charts that
have odd similarities and odder dis-similarities. Maybe some
of you saw them. (see above reference post #45671)

Tuesday we saw more evidence of what I mentioned as "Silver
seems to be marching to a different drummer".

Take a look at these two long-term charts, if nothing else:

http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/GOLD.GIF
-and-
http://users.sisna.com/ThaiRanch/EagleRanch/SILVER.GIF

On Tuesday, Gold plunged (was PPT'd) downward, yet Silver
went UP over 10%.

Silver shares PAAS didn't budge, despite favorable news that
they were getting online with some new South American mine
sources. But HECLA (HL/nyse) leaped 11% and is now 50%
higher than it was a scant three weeks ago.

I continue to believe that POS (price of Silver) will lead POG
(price of Gold) in the coming meltup of both. Silver will be the
detonator to the explosion. Looking at the two charts (above)
one can see that whatever cabal has been holding POG down,
does not seem to effect POS in timing nor depth/direction.

Could it be that Silver is more fundamentals-driven and less
manipulated, and is now showing signs of breaking out as the
severe shortage of physical silver becomes known to more
astute investors.?. And has suffered mostly, in the past as
simply being down "because sister-Gold is down.?. That all
may become a thing of the past, as little brother Silver shows
her the way. Obviously learning from rich-cousins Platinum
and Palladium.

Bye the way, I'm Talking My Book. I own shares of HECLA
and have recently swapped *all* my Physical Platinum for tall
stacks of Silver 1/oz Englehard "Prospector" rounds. All that
glitters is not necessarily Gold. I hope I've done the right move, at the right time. That would be rarity of itself.

To make matters worse (?) I've also quadrupled my holdings of
HECLA in the past three weeks. Will I ever learn.?.

ThaiGold





ThaiGold (01/17/01; 03:08:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 45764)
Electricity Storage
Attn: Black Blade / All
Recently, I've read read a few "analysts" of the Electric
Shortage say that "Electricity is one commodity that cannot
be stored" hence the market price becomes very volatile.

That's not altogether true: HydroElectric power can and is
"stored" as water-level behind the source dams. During wet
season, the water levels are built up to capacity, while in
the dry season they can then be drawn down as needed.

Tonight, Governor Gary Locke (Dem) of the Washington State
was on live statewide PBS TV with his monthly "Ask the Gov"
roadshow. Several phone-in viewers asked him questions about
the current state of State Current. (puns intended)

He mentioned that all of the State's dam(n) water levels are
precariously low for this time of year. At only 75% of the
usual storage capacity, and more drought is expected to
make the situation even worse, by the dry season when it is
normally needed.

He went on to mention that Washington continues to sell lots
of "excess" electricity to California during the winter and
then intends to buy it back from the California grid later
in the dry season. They've always done that. But wait...
California won't have any to send back to Washington, and
are forcast to not even have enuf for themselves.!.

He may be in for a big surprise. And the Washington utility
customers will not appreciate having severe electric prices
and black/brown outs at that time because of their stupidity
of selling our stored electricity (water levels) now to help
California get out of their jam. And of course, to make fat
exhorbitant profits now in doing so. Only to realize later,
that they themselves will need to enter/compete in the sky-
rocketing power markets to make up the shortfall.

Are these State "experts" so shortsighted everywhere that
they cannot see more than 2 days into the future at any time
or are they just naturally inept.?.

Next, I might mention that Governor Locke suggested two
things to totally alleviate the current shortage:

(1) Return to Daylight Savings time sooner, so as to delay
the onset of darkness and the peak load period an extra hour

(2) Everyone should think about turning their porch lights
on an hour or two later each evening.

With thinking like that, it's no wonder he was resoundingly
re-elected by the Washington State GrassHopoCrats. Or is
it Grass HippoCrits.?.

ThaiGold



Black Blade (01/17/01; 02:57:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 45763)
Report: Bush Says He May Cancel Late Clinton Moves
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010114/pl/bush_dc_4.html

NEW YORK (Reuters) - President-elect George W. Bush has promised a quick review and a possible rollback of some of the most ambitious initiatives of President Clinton's last days in office, The New York Times said in its Sunday edition. In an interview at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, Bush said that chief among the steps he would review were regulations putting nearly 60 million acres of the nation's forests off-limits to development. ``I understand the Western mentality and I want the Western mentality represented in this administration,'' Bush told The paper. Reporters for the Times spent nearly three hours with the president-elect on Friday, and a package of their articles was posted on its Web site on Saturday. ``We've got lawyers looking at every single issue, every single opportunity'' to reverse actions taken by Clinton in the waning weeks of his presidency, Bush was quoted as saying. The former Texas governor, who is to be sworn in as the nation's 43rd president on Saturday, also said he was considering a new, tougher approach toward Russia that would limit aid for its conversion to a market economy. Such a move would end an eight-year effort by Clinton to use U.S. direct financial aid to Russia to coax the country toward reform. Bush suggested he would try to stop the money, except for that used to dismantle nuclear weapons, until Russian President Vladimir Putin cleaned up corruption and enacted economic and legal reforms. ``It just seems like to me that we don't want to be lending money and/or encourage the lending of money into a system in which the intention of the capital is never fulfilled,'' he told the newspaper.

Abortion Turnaround

In what would be another sharp reversal of Clinton administration policy, Bush signaled that he was inclined to use an executive order to stop the flow of American money to any international organizations that provided abortions in foreign countries. ``Organizations that promote abortions are organizations I don't want to support'' with taxpayers' dollars, he was quoted as saying. In each of the areas mentioned, particularly forest policy, he acknowledged that he would face resistance, and in some he foresaw legal restraints. He was also reported to be: -- Hoping to keep his Inaugural Address at the U.S. Capitol to just 12 minutes, based on the message that ``we can be a unified America.'' But he said the theme was not related to his slim victory in the Electoral College and his loss in the popular vote to his Democratic rival, Vice President Al Gore -- Planning to quickly introduce his plan to cut taxes by an estimated $1.6 trillion over 10 years as a single bill, perhaps modifying it to deepen benefits in the next few years to stimulate a slowing economy. Asked if he was willing to negotiate the size of the cuts, Bush shot back: ``The answer is no. I think it's the right number.'' -- Having second thoughts about having commented so enthusiastically about the Federal Reserve's half-point reduction in short-term interest rates early this month. ``I kind of read the feedback and tended to agree with it, frankly,'' he told the paper and suggested that he might not publicly evaluate future Fed actions.

Black Blade: WOW! Just all kinds of news that has a profound impact on our lives. It would be interesting to see how George Dubya reverses Bubba's Executive Order signing marathon over the last few weeks. The environmentalists will go ape**** over this. Sounds like a lotta fun. Meanwhile, I will continue to slowly gather up gold and silver bullion at bargain basement – fire sale prices. This real world events are more fun that watching television.



Black Blade (01/17/01; 02:47:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 45762)
Showdown at the Kilowatt Corral
http://biz.yahoo.com/st/010116/21468.html
TheStandard.com

By Scott Harris
As an oilman, George W. Bush never had much luck looking for black gold in the fields of Midland, Texas. But as a politician, he struck a gusher when he tapped the energy business, drawing serious dinero from Texas giants Enron, Dynegy and Reliant. No other industry worked harder to elect Bush president, and none expects more in return.
As those companies rake in profits supplying electricity to power-strained California, their cozy connections to the president-elect are turning the West Coast's energy crisis into a political showdown between the Lone Star and Golden states. More than local pride is at stake: If the lights go out in California, the state could drag the whole economy into recession. California Gov. Gray Davis, a Democrat and potential Bush rival in 2004, is talking tough, accusing "out-of-state" power companies of exploiting deregulation's failure to conduct "legalized highway robbery." Davis is threatening to seize control of power plants if what he sees as profiteering doesn't stop. Even if he's bluffing, a brewing consumer revolt could restore regulation of electricity via a ballot initiative in 2002.
Meanwhile, the energy feud has Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Phil Gramm (R-Texas) squaring off over Feinstein's proposed bill that would force the federal government to impose a wholesale price cap on electricity out West. Powerful Texas pols like Rep. Tom DeLay, the Republican House whip, and House Majority Leader Dick Armey are expected to join Gramm in fighting Feinstein's bill.

The Bush administration also may find other loyalties tested. California is the center of the new economy, and Silicon Valley executives who supported Bush are anxious to avoid problems like the blackout last June that cost companies tens of millions of dollars in lost productivity. It all has Dubya and company on a longhorn of a dilemma. How to save California while protecting his favorite industry's beloved - and highly profitable - movement toward an ever-freer marketplace?Bush's ties to the industry run deeper than an offshore rig's anchor. His father was in the oil business and so were his vice president and commerce secretary nominee. Campaign finance reports show that during the 2000 campaign oil and gas companies gave $1.7 million in direct contributions to Bush - 15 times what they gave to VP Al Gore. This did not include millions more in unregulated "soft money" donations to the GOP or the sponsorship of the Republican National Convention.

Enron, the huge Houston energy broker and Bush's chief corporate patron, provided $820,000 in soft money to the GOP and more recently donated $100,000 toward the Bush inaugural. Its top execs, Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling, also chipped in $100,000 apiece. Enron CEO Lay was rumored to be on the shortlist for the post of energy secretary. That appointment went to former Michigan Sen. Spencer Abraham, a Republican who was defeated in his bid for re-election in November. (In 2000, the only politicians who received more energy money than Abraham were Bush and New York senate candidate Rick Lazio.)

What galls Californians is that the Texas power companies have made billions in revenues thanks to the Golden State's runaway markets, pushing investor-owned utilities Pacific Gas & Electric and Southern California Edison to the brink of bankruptcy and prompting blackout warnings. Meanwhile, Enron's revenues nearly tripled to $30 billion between October 1999 and October 2000. But there is no hard proof that the companies have functioned as a cartel to create artificial shortages and keep prices sky-high. Energy company executives say they're just charging what California's screwed-up market will bear. The chief problem, they add, is that no new power plants have been built in California for more than a decade, despite a booming economy that has spiked demand for electricity. Davis' harsh words let his own constituents know who was wearing the white hat as he led a posse of California leaders to a Jan. 9 summit at the Clinton White House. Participants report those negotiations produced progress toward long-term contracts that should keep California's computers humming and its utilities solvent. The most dramatic development came the following day with the abrupt resignation of Federal Energy Regulatory Commission Chairman James Hoecker, a Clinton appointee who in December ridiculed advocates of stronger regulation as "charter members of the Flat Earth Society." His expected replacement, Republican Commissioner Curt Hebert, surprised Californians by promising that rate caps would receive stronger consideration. Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer, however, has pledged that the new president won't retreat from deregulation: "He has shown deregulation can and does work. That's what happened in Texas." For Davis, though, California's deregulation has been "a colossal failure." Returning home from Washington, he spoke of seeing "a light at the end of the tunnel." But unless the emergency measures pay off, California's ornery electorate could bring dark days ahead for Bush's energy buddies.

Black Blade: Time to politicize this problem, work out meaningful solutions later. What a bunch of buffoons! Kalifornia created their own mess, let them deal with it. Problems are solved when people suffer enough to demand that solutions be found. Unfortunately, Commissar Davis, Sen. Diane Fine-swine, and others will demand that others in other states bear the burden and they just might get their way. There's a lot of votes in Kalifornia. Good time to protect your wealth with gold and other hard assets before the SHTF.


Black Blade (01/17/01; 02:09:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 45761)
Another Power Alert Called in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) - State power officials declared another electricity emergency Tuesday morning as several plants reported a shortage of natural gas. Southern California Edison told federal regulators it didn't have the money to pay its $596 million wholesale electricity bill. The California Independent System Operator, keepers of much of the energy-starved state's power grid, called a Stage 3 alert after reserves dipped below 11/2 percent. A Stage 3 alert could lead to rolling blackouts if reserves drop still lower. Last week, a Stage 3 alert was called when the biggest storm to hit the state in three years cut electricity generation at a key nuclear plant. The alert was dropped back to Stage 2 on Friday, when more power became available from other states. The new Stage 3 alert was expected to be in effect all day. A shortage of natural gas was forcing many power plants in Southern California to switch to oil, ISO spokesman Patrick Dorinson said. Power producing problems are possible and could worsen the power shortage, he said. Also Tuesday, Southern California Edison Co. told the federal Securities and Exchange Commission it would temporarily suspend payment to the state Power Exchange, which manages the wholesale buying and selling of electricity, and power suppliers. The company reported it would run out of cash Feb. 2 because its debts for buying electricity total nearly $1.5 billion and its cash reserves total only $1.2 billion. ``SCE is attempting to avoid bankruptcy,'' SoCal Edison said in its filing. The move came a day after the a major power generator, Dynegy Inc. of Houston, threatened to take So Cal Edison and Pacific Gas & Electric Co. to bankruptcy court if they didn't make payments due this week. The filing came as the Assembly prepared to consider legislation that would let the state buy electricity and sell it to utilities, which have amassed billions of dollars in debt buying energy in a California market unhinged by deregulation and supply shortages. Gov. Gray Davis said the state will try to sign long-term contracts with the electricity wholesalers to buy power and sell it to utilities. The state believes it can negotiate better prices than the utilities, which have seen their credit ratings plummet in recent months. PG&E and SoCal Edison say they have amassed more than $9 billion in debt as they buy energy at record-high wholesale prices and sell it at rates capped by state deregulation rules. PG&E officials said Monday that they would pay their $40 million bill due this week. The utility has approximately $500 million in cash, a spokesman said, with a bill for about $580 million due Feb. 1.

Black Blade: These Grasshoppers sure aren't about to get any breaks are they? I suggest that they get warm blankets, a camp stove, and a couple of flashlights - don't forget the batteries. Oh yeah, maybe build a power plant or two, and drill offshore of Santa Barbara for starters. The Ants may feel free to disregard the foregoing.

Black Blade (01/17/01; 02:00:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 45760)
Dynegy says may push Calif. utilities into bankruptcy

HOUSTON, Jan 16 (Reuters) - Dynegy Corp. (NYSE:DYN), a Houston-based natural gas and power provider, reportedly is considering filing bankruptcy proceedings against California utilities Southern California Edison and Pacific Gas & Electric if they fail to pay for their electricity supplies. The Los Angeles Times reported on Tuesday that Dynegy said time was running out and that a joint petition by three creditors would be enough to start involuntary bankruptcy proceedings. Dynegy officials were not immediately available for comment on the newspaper report. ``When and if they (Edison) default on Thursday, it puts us in a position where we have to take them into bankruptcy and I'm sure others will be right beside us,'' Dynegy President Stephen Bergstrom was quoted as telling the newspaper. Bergstrom refused to say how much money Dynegy was owed. Dynegy has stakes in California electricity generation plants with a combined capacity of some 3,500 megawatts. On Tuesday, Southern California Edison, a unit of Edison International (NYSE:EIX) , said it was suspending at least $596 million of payments due to creditors as it faces soaring costs to buy electricity in the wholesale market. Under California's electricity deregulation rules, the company has operated under rate caps that prevent it from passing on those costs to consumers.

Pacific Gas & Electric, a unit of PG&E Corp.(NYSE:PCG), faces a similar dilemma. California Gov. Gray Davis has been racing against the clock, trying to broker a deal with the utilities, their suppliers and state lawmakers under which the state would buy power cheaply, using its good credit, then sell it to the utilities at cost. But Dynegy's Bergstrom told the Los Angeles Times, ``If we can't get this bill through in the next two days this will start to unravel.'' Reliant Energy Inc.(NYSE:REI), another Houston-based company which has some 3,800 megawatts of generation capacity in California, has said that recent events cast doubt on the ability of the California Independent System Operator (Cal ISO) and the California Power Exchange (Cal PX) to make payments on behalf of California utilities to power suppliers. Reliant said in a Jan. 8 statement that the balance due to Reliant from the Cal ISO and the Cal PX had varied seasonally from $5 million to $270 million over the past 12 months.

Black Blade: Golly Gee, didn't Abby Jo Cohen and friends tell everyone that energy wasn't important anymore since we have the "New Economy?" Come on now, trot out the old girl to reassure everyone. Better do it quick before there isn't any electricity to see it on television or hear it on radio. So much for the "New Economy."



Black Blade (01/17/01; 01:54:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 45759)
Calif. declines PG&E plea for help natural gas

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 16 (Reuters) - California's Gov. Gray Davis has turned down a plea from Pacific Gas and Electric Co. for state help to buy natural gas for its 3.8 million gas customers, a spokesman for Davis said on Tuesday. The San Francisco-based subsidiary of PG&E Corp. (NYSE:PCG), struggling to fend off bankruptcy in the midst of California's worst-ever energy crisis, asked Davis on Jan. 10 to intervene on the utility's behalf after over half of the utility's gas suppliers said they would not sell PG&E gas for February delivery unless the utility paid for it in advance. `The state is not going to provide emergency assistance (to PG&E),'' Davis's spokesman Steve Maviglio said. He said Davis asked President Bill Clinton to invoke provisions in the 1978 U.S. Natural Gas Policy Act that gives the Energy Secretary emergency powers to order out-of-state gas producers to continue selling gas to the utility. A Pacific Gas and Electric spokeswoman said the company was conferring with its lawyers on the decision but declined to comment on these latest developments. The troubled company -- which has piled up more than $6 billion in wholesale power costs it cannot pass onto its customers due to a price cap imposed by the state's deregulation law -- has secured only a ``small amount'' of the one billion cubic feet of gas it needs in February.
If Pacific Gas and Electric is unable to secure all of its needs for next month it could be forced to cut some amount of gas service to non-core customers, like industrial users, the spokeswoman said. The needs of core customers, like residential and small business customers, will be met and would only be reduced if service to all non-core customers had been cut and all the gas in the utility's three storage facilities was exhausted, an unlikely event at this time.
Last week two of the utility's suppliers stopped selling gas to the utility for the rest of this month, citing its financial difficulties. To make up the shortfall due to the absence of these suppliers and to meet all of its customers gas needs, Pacific Gas and Electric has been drawing gas from storage facilities. PG&E, whose credit rating was slashed on Tuesday to junk bond status by Moody's and Standard & Poor's, has warned creditors that California's severe electricity shortage and 1996 deregulation law capping what PG&E can charge customers at a fraction of what it must pay in wholesale market, have nearly drained the company of cash.

Black Blade: I had heard from an acquaintance in Kalifornia that most employees that he knows that work for PG&E and Edison Intl. were selling out of company stock plans where permissible. There appeared to be a "rush for the exits" mentality he said. Also, Edison went into technical default today as it declared that it will not make debt payments starting today. Looks as if NG and electricity suppliers are about to turn out the lights on the Grasshoppers. Even in state independents such as San Jose's Calpine are in fear of being required to agree to being "regulated" by the state or face take-over through some act of imminent domain law imposed by Commissar Davis. Should be very interesting over the next few days. Funny thing, when computer prices were high, the state didn't threaten Silicon Valley this way. Hmmm…


Black Blade (01/17/01; 01:44:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 45758)
RE Peter Asher
I read your post about the possible Grasshopper gone berserk. As I was listening to the radio tonight, there was speculation that there was some connection to the high-energy costs and the truckers’ attempt at "disrupting" the state assembly. Strange days indeed.

- Black Blade

Black Blade (01/17/01; 01:40:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 45757)
'Strong Dollar' Policy in Doubt

By Mariko Hayashibara

TOKYO (Reuters) - The yen kept the pressure on the dollar and the euro on Wednesday on robust Japanese demand and lingering uncertainty about U.S. commitment to a strong-dollar policy. The currency also picked up steam on the major crosses, thanks mainly to hedging and bond-redemptions by Japanese investors. But while Tokyo dealers see a possibility of the dollar retreating below 116 yen, most dismiss its current downswing as a temporary correction after a blistering five-yen rally in just two weeks. ``The 120-yen barrier can't be broken that easily,'' said Hideyuki Tsukamoto, manager at Fuji Bank's foreign exchange department. ``I'm a yen bear, but even I didn't expect the yen to go that low so quickly.'' The dollar hit a 17-month high of 119.39 yen on Monday, only to recoil as far as 116.90 on Wednesday afternoon. It picked up in late trading, standing at 117.30 yen compared with 117.65 yen late in New York on Tuesday. ``Many Japanese importers and investors are waiting for a chance to buy the dollar as its rally up to now was so fast that they missed out,'' Tsukamoto said. Stop-loss sell orders were rumored at 116.80 yen and a clear fall below that level should pave the way for the dollar to dip below 116 yen, dealers said. The euro earlier dropped just below 110.00 yen slipping from a 15-month peak of 113.19 yen scraped last Friday in London. At 1:24 a.m. EST it was at 110.43/55 yen with support of 109.50 yen. Market unease ahead of a crucial confirmation hearing for incoming U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill prompted dealers to waste no time snapping up profits on the dollar. The market has been awash with rumors that O'Neill will temper or even abandon the United States' long-standing strong-dollar policy in the belief that a weaker currency will stimulate exports.

Many analysts and dealers doubt he would go that far, but since O'Neill's views on the dollar are completely unknown, the risk could not be ruled out entirely. O'Neill's hearing in the Senate starts at 1430 GMT. Another factor driving the dollar down was yen-buying related to redemption of foreign-currency denominated bonds, although the amount was not believed to be substantial, analysts said. There were also reports of a vague rumor about a troubled U.S. hedge fund. Dealers pointed to demand for yen from Japanese life insurers and trust banks, which were rumored to be hedging their foreign-asset exposure, particularly against the single currency. Hedging is instinctive for Japanese investors, who have repeatedly seen the value of their offshore assets eroded by a strengthening yen. ``For many investors, it's a chance to earn profits from the perspectives of both forex and bonds, as bond prices rose recently after the U.S. rate cut and with a weakening yen,'' a trust bank dealer said. That in turn encouraged speculators to test the dollar's downside. Some also saw support for the yen in the fact that Japanese share prices had stopped sliding, for the moment at least. After collapsing last year, the benchmark Nikkei 225 index (.N225) has steadied above 13,500 in recent sessions, buoyed by hopes of government help and Toyota Motor's decision to buy back 250 billion yen worth of its own shares. Changes to the Basel accord on bank capital requirements proposed on Tuesday proved significantly less threatening than expected to Japanese banks, which was seen as good news for the yen.

DOLLAR AND EURO IN BALANCE

The dollar held a slight advantage against the euro at $0.9427 against $0.9414 in New York, but was sandwiched between bids of $0.9350 and offers of $0.9440. The dollar was aided at the margin by a 50 point bounce in the Nasdaq futures contract on Globex after Intel Corp (Nasdaq: INTC) reported results slightly better than market expectations. But the euro in turn was supported by rumors that some Asian central banks were quietly expanding the proportion of euros in their foreign exchange reserves. The rumors were fuelled by a comment from China's central bank Governor Dai Xianglong that the euro was undervalued and the bank had no plans to change euros into dollars.


Black Blade: Former Sec. Lindsey has stated that the Bush administration will be committed to a strong dollar. So who's right? I don't think any of these idiots know for sure. We will have to wait until at least January 20th to find out for ourselves.




Peter Asher (01/17/01; 00:46:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 45756)
rc (1/16/2001; 21:14:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 45751)

You are not describing the "Black Market Gold" proposed to exist by several posters. I personaly have no position on it's existence other then that it could be true.

The Gold referred to is considered to be hordes from various historical events and activities and if true would make drug lord stashes petty cash.

I was explaining to you why this, IF TRUE, would be a potential market overhang/supply and therefore not be a higher priced market. I was not promoting the existence of these hordes, only why, if they existed, they would not be creating a high priced shadow market.

If Gold were confiscated again and forbidden to be owned, THEN that would be a typical high priced Black Market as the confiscation would be due to a controlled gold value being enforced that was far lower than what would exist in a free market. Part of your confusion may be because "Black Market"could actually be an improper title for these alleged hordes, maybe they should be called "Unrecorded Gold Hordes"

Gandalf the White (01/17/01; 00:44:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 45755)
Perhaps the reason that the Philippine stock market is DOWN 6% tonight
http://www.yehey.com/
THE ESTRADA IMPEACHMENT PAGE (of the Philippines e-board)

Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 8:43:29 AM

Pimentel quits as vote rocks court

MANILA -- By one vote, the House prosecution panel lost last night its chance to open the second envelope containing information on the P3.3-billion account allegedly held by President Estrada with Equitable PCI Bank.

Senators viewed as being on the President's side openly gloated about the decision, which clearly divided the tribunal for the first time since the trial began.

"This is a shameless vote of acquittal," Rep. Joker Arroyo said when the hearing adjourned.

Volunteer private prosecutors walked out in disgust and Sen. Aquilino Pimentel Jr. resigned the Senate presidency shortly before the adjournment.

"This is a test run. This is how the Senate will vote (on Feb. 12)," Arroyo added. Earlier in the day, the peso fell to a historic low of 52.649 to the US dollar.

A noise barrage began last night in Fuente Osme--a in Cebu city as well as various parts of Metro Manila, while text and e-mail messages relayed the disappointment of Filipinos who watched Day 23 of the impeachment trial.

The protests were quickly organized and are expected to continue Wednesday.

Pimentel, who spoke last, voted for the inspection of the bank documents and immediately announced his resignation as Senate president.

"(Opening the second envelope) is the only way to determine whether or not the contents of the envelope are material... or not," he said.

A teary-eyed Sen. Franklin Drilon, who was toppled for deserting Estrada's coalition party last October, embraced Pimentel as soon as the session adjourned.

"Because of this development, I realize that the no's have it, and therefore I resign my presidency of the Senate as soon as my successor is elected," Pimentel said.

He later told reporters: "I think the decision tonight has done irreparable damage to the Senate as an institution. I cannot continue leading a damaged institution."

Estrada, the first Asian leader to be impeached, called key prosecution witnesses "liars."

The loss of the vote prompted the private prosecutors to walk out, with Arroyo saying they will report what happened to the House of Representatives.

The only other person with access so far to the bank documents, aside from Pimentel, also resigned.

"They (administration senators) don't want the truth to be revealed. I am very disappointed," said Senate Secretary Lutgardo Barbo.

Senator-Judge Loren Legarda said she will file a motion for reconsideration today. "Not all is lost," she said in televised interviews.

It was the first time the senators have voted in public in the impeachment trial, since it took only a ruling by Chief Justice Hilario Davide Jr. for the first bank envelope to be opened.

Those who voted for the opening of the envelope were: Senator-Judges Teofisto Guingona, Renato Cayetano, Loren Legarda-Leviste, Franklin Drilon, Juan Flavier, Raul Roco, Ramon Magsaysay Jr., Serge Osme--a III, Rodolfo Biazon and Pimentel.

Those against were: Francisco Tatad, Tessie Oreta, Nikki Coseteng, Miriam Santiago, Juan Ponce Enrile, Ramon Revilla, Tito Sotto, John Osme--a, Blas Ople, Gringo Honasan and Robert Jaworski.

The younger sister of Sen. Ninoy Aquino, Tessie Aquino-Oreta danced, raised her fists in jubilation and grinned broadly shortly after the voting.

Drilon, Legarda and Magsaysay approached the resigned Senate president to congratulate and commiserate.

The impeachment court spent about five hours arguing on whether or not to open the envelope, which Arroyo said will show the trail of money in the Jose Velarde account.

Defense Counsel Estelito Mendoza argued the information was immaterial and irrelevant to the case. He said the Velarde account and the Boracay mansion, which the President allegedly bought for a mistress, were never mentioned in the articles of impeachment.

Arroyo tried to argue that the entire P3.3-billion is ill-gotten. This was allegedly funded in part by P300 million from Dante Tan, P300M from Kevin Garcia, P120 million from Jaime Dichaves and P180 million from Mark Jimenez.

Since this much money was never mentioned in the statement of assets and liabilities of both Estrada and his wife in 1999, this constitutes graft and corruption, the second impeachment article, he added.

The prosecutor also claimed that the P500 million used to open a trust account with Equitable PCI came from this account.

Prosecution witness Clarissa Ocampo earlier told the impeachment tribunal that she saw President Estrada sign as Jose Velarde when she was asked to go to Malaca--ang for the signing and opening of the trust account.

"This is no joke. Where in the world can you see a President having no account in his name...the President has prostituted and bastardized the banking system, but not under his (real) name?" Arroyo told the court.

"How was he (Estrada) able to amass that amount when he (as a public official) is not supposed to practice his profession or engage in business?" he added.

Mendoza countered, however, that the House of Representatives simply wanted to "look like heroes" when they rushed the articles to the Senate even without verifying the complaint.

"And now they want the Senate to set it straight," he said.

Majority Floor Leader Francisco Tatad said the complaint was sloppily prepared when it was sent to the Senate.

Earlier in the day, a witness told the court the Erap Muslim Youth Foundation does not exist, nor does it have an office or staff.

Lawyer Oswaldo Santos said he was tasked to investigate the Erap Muslim Youth Foundation, which was created in February 2000 and later reported to have received as much as P200 million.

He began his investigation on Dec. 22, 2000, by checking all documents of incorporation of the foundation with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).

But after he checked, he said, the office address and telephone number of the foundation indicated in SEC records are that of the De Borja law office, a firm that presidential legal adviser Edward Serapio helped found.

Santos, however, while questioned by Senator-Judge Nikki Coseteng, said his law firm also allows client-firms to temporarily use their office address in the incorporation documents.

The defense questioned the credibility of the witness by asking Santos who hired him to investigate.

Santos said his office conducted the investigation for free upon the request of the prosecution.

But he said he did the investigation not for the prosecution, but "for the love of his country."

He admitted, though, that his partner, Antonio Ligon, is one of the private prosecutors in the impeachment but only as far as his testimony is concerned.

The prosecution believes that the foundation was used to handle bribe money for President Estrada. (Sun.Star Cebu/wires)

Day 23 Highlights

The Erap Muslim Youth Foundation does not exist, prosecution witness lawyer Oswaldo Santos told the impeachment court. The address given by the foundation to SEC is occupied by the law office of Presidential Legal Adviser Edward Serapio, he said.

Serapio is one of the incorporators of the foundation while former Equitable PCI Bank chair George Go is the treasurer.

The prosecution argued that the second envelope, which reportedly contained details of the P3.3-billion account of Jose Velarde with Equitable PCI Bank, should be opened if the prosecution is to prove its case against the President.

The defense argued that the document sought to be opened is immaterial and irrelevant to the case and that the impeachment court has no jurisdiction over it.

The impeachment court voted 10-11 against the opening of the sealed envelope.

Senator-Judge Aquilino Pimentel Jr. resigned as Senate president. Lawyer Lutgardo Barbo also resigned as Senate secretary. Pimentel voted in favor of opening the second bank envelope.
====
<;-)


Peter Asher (01/17/01; 00:23:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 45754)
Grasshopper runs amuck
Must have just gotten his gas bill.

A truck hauling two trailers crashed into
the state Capitol and burst into flames
late Tuesday just as the Assembly was
clearing out after an evening session. The
driver died at the scene.

It was not immediately known whether
anyone else was injured, and it was
difficult to tell if the fire had spread to the
building.

Smoke and flames billowed from the
truck, which was rammed up the Capitol
steps and nestled below the state Senate
chambers. The Senate was not in
session; the Assembly was just
adjourning.

The man driving the truck honked his horn
and roared down the street going about
70 mph before the big rig crashed into the
Capitol's south doors, said Assembly
staffer Matt Z'berg, who was walking
down the street away from the Capitol.

"He came all the way down here blaring
his horn," Z'berg said.

The truck struck the building with a "humongous fireball
effect," he said, adding that he did not see anyone get out of
the truck.

The double-trailer rig bore the name of the Dick Simon
trucking company, Z'berg said.

The driver died at the scene, said a CHP officer who declined
to give his name.

The truck, loaded with powdered milk, drove around the
Capitol block several times, then barreled down 11th Street,
which runs along the Capitol, and smashed into the building,
said Assembly Speaker Robert Hertzberg, quoting law
enforcement authorities and witnesses.



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