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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 6/17/2000 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Journeyman (06/17/00; 23:44:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 32542) Re: The power to print fiat @TedW When you're right your're right. Those folks are either intentionally or ignorantly traitorous. But remember, according to their own guidelines, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Thus we can simplify to "those folks are traitorous."Regards, J. Black Blade (06/17/00; 23:22:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 32541) Rx Gold - Californication of Nevada ;-) I know exactly what you mean. When the silver mines slowed output around Wallace, Idaho, outsiders came in to buy cheap land. It wasn't long before they Californicated it. When the stop light went up in town, it was the beginning of the end. It was a nice town, but then the outsiders wanted to change everything so that it was more like "home" with new laws, etc. In effect they just transplanted everything they wanted to get away from to their new home. It ws really down-hill when the FBI came and arrested the mayor and city council. There used to be "less than legal" casinos and Cat houses, and it appears that the city government sort of collected their taxes. The town police department was said to have shared offices in the same building as one of the brothels. Looks as if the same is happening in parts of Nevada as well. As it is, in Nevada, we still have casinos, Cat houses, and bars that never close. Unfortunately, I'm sure that over time we will get Californicated as well. Rx Gold (06/17/00; 22:57:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 32540) Leland/Goldfield I've thought I'd post a quick note in response to the piece on Goldfield, Nevada. I lived in Esmeralda County for 20 something years. I started out in Goldfield in the early 70's and lived all over the county. What was written was fairly accurate of the town and it was a great place to live. the best thing I liked about it was that you could do almost anything and there were no laws that said you couldn't. Pretty much anything was acceptable unless it affected someone else. "Don't monkey with another mans monkey". In the 70's it was just old timers and things were really easy. Since that time there have been a lot of outsiders that have moved in. they move there because of the way it is and then start to make a fuss and work to change things. first thing was that they had to have street lights, next came paved roads. They just have to make it just like back home. Of corse with paved roads people went faster and then we had to hire more deputys to keep the speed down and then keep an eye on the town overnight. It made the new people feel safer. A few days before you posted I got a call form one of the locals who said that he had a friend who wanted to buy some property there. He inquired if some of my old cabins, sheds and property were for sale. I gave him a price but have not heard back from him. I see now that there must have been alot of people around and maybe he thought he could pick up something with buildings from someone who didn't live there anymore. I checked with a friend down there and he said that they mostly sold property in the washes and other BAD places. There is a reason that nobody lives in the washes in the desert. It was interesting to 'go back' to Goldfield. thanks for the post.Rx Gold tedw (06/17/00; 22:38:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 32539) The power to print fiat money http://www.usagold.com Aristotle et al:Whether the Federal Government has the right to print paper money is , I beleive, an important point. Of course, they presently have the power, but then again so do clandestine counterfeiters.It is important I believe that we talk clearly and concisely on the issue.I have looked at the constitution and the documents of that day. The constitution says (paraphrase) that the federal goverment only has the powers expressely granted to it. It says the states do not have the power expressely prohibited. Therefore, "Congress has the power to COIN (not print) money and the states are prohibited from making anything but gold and silver coin a payment in debt"These consititutional phrases (Supreme Law of this countryactually) when coupled with the statements from the constitutional convention that it was their intention to elimate the evils of paper money make it clear what the law is. The law is Congress has the power to Coin money and the states are prohibited from collecting anything but gold and silver coin.That is it simply. And for good reason. The Founders were trying to protect us from paper money.Since the Constitution can only be legally changed by amendment and this hasnt happened, then the government is violating the law.What could be clearer?In the interest of honesty and clarity, we should say the government is operating outside the law. We should say their activities are not lawful. We could even go so far as to say their activities are of a criminal and traitorious nature. For those interested in a better understanding see:www.devvy.comor the court case filed by Reginald Howe of the Golden Sextant challenging the constitutionality of fiat money.The Supreme Court will not grant certiori on any money case because if they were honest they would have to overturn the present money system, and they dont have the courage to do that.In all likehood, the American Right to have honest money has been usurped never to return. We can however (at least for now) talk honestly about these things. Now, if anyone out there can point out any error in my analysis or reasoning I will gladly listen to it. However, the truth of the matter is self-evident to any individual seeking it. "Its dangerous to be right when the government is wrong"-Voltaire Leland (06/17/00; 22:18:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 32538) And, Don't Forget, Call Your Dad Tomorrow... Updated: Saturday, Jun. 17, 2000 at 22:46 CDT There's pressure when following in father's footsteps, but no better tribute than sons who want to be like dad By Richie Whitt Star-Telegram Staff Writer Happy Father's Day. Happy Follower's Day? For successful sons like Ken Griffey Jr., Peyton Manning, Grant Hill, Brett Hull and even George W. Bush, today is for thanking dear ol' dad for the familiar footprints following a Hall of Fame path. But for relative failures like Pete Rose Jr., Gary Nicklaus and Marvis Frazier, it's Dad's Day with a hint of Sad Day. Hand the old man a tie, maybe mow his grass, then again lament the stress of having to perform in the suffocating shadow cast by a peerless pop. Like famous father, not quite like son. "The last thing you want to do is be an embarrassment to your father, especially if you're following him," said Florida Marlins outfielder Preston Wilson, son of former New York Mets outfielder Mookie. "We have a saying, `When you leave the house, you're taking your name with you. So come back with it the same way you left with it.' "Yeah, I'd say that's pressure. But if you use it right, it's also very powerful." From Jose Cruz Jr. to Cal Ripken Jr. to former TCU baseball player Matt Howe (son of Oakland A's manager Art Howe), father-son combinations are as plentiful as 2000 home runs. So commonplace is the copycat kid that at last year's Class A California League All-Star Game, only injuries prevented a starting outfield of Garry Maddox Jr., Bobby Bonds Jr. and Gary Matthews Jr., reprising the talented San Francisco Giants' outfield of their fathers in 1973-74. Fathers Know Best, they aren't always easy to follow. While sons such as Donnie Nelson, Oakland A's outfielder Ben Grieve, Oakland Raiders defensive back Anthony Dorsett and Stars sniper Hull spend another Happy Son-Day trying to trace dad's positive tracks, they also must live with the accompanying baggage of labels, expectations and constant comparisons. "I'm proud of him and he's proud of me, but my name has hurt him more than helped him," Mavericks head coach/general manager Don Nelson said of his son Donnie. "I was not a normal father to him. I traveled a lot, and plus I'm just a little wacky. It's a tough thing to follow your father. People assume Donnie's had a paved road, but it's a lot of pressure and a lot to overcome." Some athletes are being challenged by negative -- or even absent -- father figures. Tennis legend Steffi Graf and gymnast Dominique Moceanu had their money mismanaged by dad. Golf icon Tiger Woods and budding tennis stars Venus and Serena Williams were saddled with unrealistic expectations by oppressive fathers. French Open champ Mary Pierce has witnessed her verbally abusive pop banned from events. And Fort Worth product and Phoenix Suns center Oliver Miller prospered without a dad at all, having not seen his father since his imprisonment for the death of an uncle. "I'm not going to lie, it was real hard growing up without a dad," said Miller, who credits finally controlling his weight problem to being responsible for his two children. "That's why I'm going to always be there for my kids. If they want to play basketball, fine. But I'll support them whatever they want to do. Just being there for them is the big thing." But some sons -- such as Donnie Nelson -- argue that following famous footsteps isn't an automatic bye to success, either. The family transition may occur naturally in `Sanford and Son', but the bread crumbs aren't always so visible along the sports trail. "The hardest thing in coaching is to get your foot in the door and my name helped me do that," said Donnie, an NBA assistant for six years who was once named the Mavericks' coach-in-waiting by his father but will now likely land his first head coaching job in a city other than Dallas. "But other than that, it hasn't done a thing for me." While the roots of a recognizable name can heighten the degree of difficulty for the children, they can also open otherwise locked doors of opportunity. "It's definitely an advantage having a name," said Indiana-based sports psychologist Edward Hirt. "Other things being equal, they're going to get a shot. But in the same breath, comparisons are inevitably going to be made. A lot of times, fathers would like to see their sons carry on in their footsteps in terms of occupation or a hobby -- take over the business, work together. But it seems it works a lot better at the hobby level than it does at the professional level because they don't have their own identity." Athletes who choose to duplicate dad, whether gently prodded toward it or even discouraged from it, agree the namesake can be both advantageous and dangerous. "There's built-in pressure for sure," said Rangers TV analyst Tom Grieve of his son, Ben. "The only special treatment his name earned him was getting to be [Rangers] bat boy at age 10. In his career I'm sure players and even coaches have watched to make sure he wasn't using his name as a vehicle to shortcuts. You can have the name like Griffey or Bonds, but the only way you get the respect is through talent and hard work." Better to be born with a flawless swing than a famous name. "I don't feel like anyone has handed me anything," Anthony Dorsett, son of former Cowboys running back Tony, said during last season's Super Bowl week when he played for the Tennessee Titans. "People have teased me and said the only reason I made it to the NFL is because of my dad, but the film doesn't lie. [Tennessee Titans owner] Bud Adams doesn't pay me any more money because I'm Tony Dorsett's son. Everyone can't come in as Heisman Trophy winner. I knew I was going to have to make my own way." To these four fathers, there's no better tribute than watching their sons succeed via a combination of talented genetics and hard work. And to their rising sons, no more significant rite of passage than pursuing their dynamic dads. DON NELSON Nelson spent his early fatherhood joking, grousing or gone. While Don was a traveling forward with the Boston Celtics' dynasty, Donnie grew up wondering why dad usually wasn't around and why people wanted his autograph when he was. "It was different, and not too good honestly," Donnie said. "At games or events all the dads would show up except mine. That was tough." The payoff: Donnie often went to old Boston Garden and rebounded for players like John Havlicek and Dave Cowens after practice. And, of course, he was passed enduring basketball bloodlines. "Dad didn't push me, because if he would've I would've rebelled," Donnie said. "I fell in love with basketball on my own terms. Of course, the free chocolate donuts and milk with the Celtics didn't hurt." Though Donnie has recently lost some of his identity working on Don's ridiculously large coaching staff in Dallas, the father-son relationship is stronger than ever. The two see each other every day, Donnie's children often go swimming at Grandpa's, and last week Don enjoyed one of those magical weekends that President Calvin Coolidge envisioned when he proclaimed the third Sunday in June as Father's Day back in 1924. "We went back to Wisconsin with all the kids and the 11 grandkids," Don said. "It came a little early for Father's Day, but it was as neat a day as I've ever had." BOBBY HULL Though Brett and Bobby Hull have not always seen eye-to-eye, their mutual respect is as strong as the family's slap shot. "It's awesome to be compared to Dad," Brett said shortly after topping Bobby's 610 NHL goals last season. "He was such an explosive skater and had such a flair for the game. We emulate people. You are around them so much and see them so much, watch them so much. It's no different than when I watch some of the expressions my kids have. It's like, `Wow, where did they pick that up?' And, it's exactly the same things I do. My whole game is him, well, except for probably creativity." The Hulls share other similarities, including nicknames -- Golden Jet and Golden Brett -- and the unprecedented achievement of being the only father-son duo to score 50 goals in an NHL season, a feat each accomplished five times. But, other than in hockey terms, Brett rarely talks openly about his distant dad. Or vice versa. "Yes, I want him to break my record [of 610 career goals]," Bobby said last season. "I want him to get more than anybody else who has ever played because he's better than anyone else that played. Even me. I'm not sure I could've done what he's done." TOM GRIEVE Ben Grieve's father didn't push him to be a baseball player, though he was always willing to toss him a Wiffle ball, play catch, or take him to old Arlington Stadium where he could shag flies from Ruben Sierra and get hitting lessons from Bobby Valentine. Somewhere between blueprint plan and happenstance coincidence, Ben fell in love with baseball and became a star at Martin High School, drafted by the Oakland A's as the No. 2 overall pick and the 1998 American League Rookie of the Year. "I tried to be obvious that I wasn't forcing him to like it, but he liked it anyway," said Grieve, who spent a decade as the Rangers' GM after a decade playing for the Rangers, New York Mets and St. Louis Cardinals. "He was living the dream life of a 10-year-old boy, running errands for Steve Buechele and listening to stories from Geno Petralli and Bobby Witt. But the important part was that he was mature enough to realize it, and to use it." With Tom in '66 and Ben in '94, the Grieves became baseball's first father-son combo to be first-round draft picks. The two play golf about 20 times in the off-season and talk about once a week during the season, with the conversations more father-son than TV analyst-player. "I don't want to be one of those pushy, well-intentioned dads who winds up confusing their kids with mixed signals," Tom said. "He's got plenty of good coaches. If he wants baseball advice from me, he knows he just has to ask. But more importantly, I'm there for him as dad. I'm proud of him as a baseball player. But I'm more proud of him for the man he's grown up to be." TONY DORSETT Tony and Anthony Dorsett were blessed with similarly blazing speed, yet they took drastically different tracks to the NFL. While Tony was one of the nation's best high school running backs and a Heisman Trophy winner at Pitt, Anthony was a modestly recruited defensive back who played one season at Richardson Pearce High School. Tony only backed Anthony's desire to be a football player after he proved a dedication to be a student. "At an early age I could already see the pressure of big-time sports and I know what I went through, and I wasn't going to force my child into that," Tony said. "I needed him to be a good student and a good person, not an athlete. He's a well-rounded person who always understood that being Tony Dorsett's son didn't mean he had to be an athlete." The Dorsetts in January became the first father-son combination to start in a Super Bowl. As a breakaway running back, Tony led the Cowboys to a Super Bowl XII title in the 1977 season. Wearing his dad's No. 33, Anthony started for the Tennessee Titans in Super Bowl XXXIV. "I never looked at my dad as the great football player that he was. He was just my dad," Anthony said. "I didn't realize until I got older that the things he did were so impressive." To dad, there's no better crown. And to son, no bigger challenge. Richie Whitt, (817) 390-7760 Staff writer Jennifer Floyd contributed to this article. Send comments to richie@star-telegram.com (Fair Use For Educational/Research Purposes Only.) Rx Gold (06/17/00; 21:58:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 32537) test test Leland (06/17/00; 21:52:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 32536) Mucho Kudos to David Cohen, too http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_00/dvcohen061900.html . Leland (06/17/00; 21:06:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 32535) WoW! Bill Murphy, You've Done it Again! http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_00/murphy061900.html . Sierra Madre (06/17/00; 20:39:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 32534) Aristotle and other kind readers I am pleased to find that my comments, regarding the adoption of a parallel silver coinage in a "small Country", have provoked some thoughts. Many thanks!I have for you some interesting news: a Fund is in process of creation - not in the U.S. - which will operate as follows: Funds by investors will be wholly invested in physical gold and silver bullion, in a proportion yet to be determined. On a daily basis, and even intra-day, this proportion will vary with the ratio between the value (in dollars)of gold and silver. When gold rises,relative to silver, silver is bought to bring the dollar invested value back into the pre-determined proportion. When silver rises, relative to gold, gold is bought with the same object.Thus, investor's interests are always in physical precious metals. There is no question of "cashing out" into dollars, which the great majority of investors cannot do efficiently, that is to say, to their advantage. The private, individual investor at present is always tempted to cash out into paper currency, and generally makes mistakes. Or if he does not cash out, he may see the dollar value of his investment shrink, which produces anxiety.On this and other sites, it is always evident that precious metals investors are perpetually agonizing over whether to invest or wait, and whether to cash out into dollars, or wait.This new idea for a Fund, eliminates those worries. A specialist trader is always carrying out these decisions for you, with the stipulation that selling or buying one metal, involves buying or selling the other. End of worries!This Fund bypasses the paper dollar!The creator of the idea, envisions many competing Funds doing the same thing. This would be an end-run around the Bullion Banks and their paper gold!A study carried out by me, using actual silver and gold prices over seven years, produced very satisfcatory results, both from a dollar investment point of view, and from the point of view of accumulating increasing quantities of precious metals, using the variations in ratio as a kind of "ratchet effect" where each metal pulls up the quantity invested, one against the other.I plan to be one of the first to invest in this Fund, substantially. I am really tired of just having a precious metal cache just sit there. This way, it is put to work to grow. No further need to forego paper interest. The Fund will grow naturally and safely from variations in ratio which are continuous.Perhaps by year-end, this Fund will come into existence. Or if someone aggressive latches onto the idea, maybe sooner!Thought you might like to think about this. Have a pleasant weekend! JavaMan (06/17/00; 20:32:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 32533) No market intervention here... http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000616/n16210307_3.html "NEW YORK, June 16 (Reuters) - The first draw on the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) in more than four years and U.S. senators clamouring for more, pushed sky-high U.S. crude prices more than 60 cents lower Friday."No long term energy policy either. ORO (06/17/00; 19:40:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 32532) Aristotle - actual government I agree with you and with Journeyman on the normal incompetence of government. Yes, bankers have their limits of power too. They are unlikely to bend government far against its interests, and unlikely to demand what would be a sufficiently unpopular action, or when propaganda proves ineffective. Where government employees have an interest in NOT solving the problems facing the public they will perform badly. Where the purse strings are concerned and where there has been wide success in deception (THE major tool of governments with armed citizens), the most ruthless and the most effective employees are found. These are particularly focussed on tax extortion, terrorization of weak resistors, and the smearing of credible threats.The best attorneys are found in the FBI and the IRS, and a few other agencies. Though seething with incompetence at the lower levels, these agencies have "crack teams" that are politically led and have bred a feeling of brotherhood among the agents and officials. These are loyal to each other and some are loyal to the political organization that hired them into the agency. When they mess up, they band together to hide the misteps and will do so thinking that they are the "good guys". They think their mission to enlarge their power and protect their public image is reason enough to lie in court, in congressional hearings and in public reports. Quite frankly, I would not believe anything an agent of any of the law, revenue and security agencies says; everything about the agent is a fraud, beginning with the agency's unlawful existence, its unlawful authority provided by unlawful statutes of congress and unlawful presidential executive orders, and thereby the agent's claims of authority, and by being a part of this kind of agency, his claim of dedication to truth, justice, the public interest, fairness, etc. can be ignored.All of these agencies operate outside the constitutional limitations on government and rely on deception of their victims and the courts to put intended victims under their jurisdiction. Though I have said of Lincoln, Wilson and FDR that they are the the worst presidents this country could have ever had and that their actions and those of the congresses that approved can be easilly categorized as treason and cowardice, respectively. However, I will quote Lincoln's words shortly before his assassination:"I see in the near future a crisis arising that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned, and an era of coruption in high places will follow and the money power will continue its sway by appealing to the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed. I feel more anxious for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of the war."He was right. FDR's "new deal" turned the republic into a democracy and removed the constitution from restricting day to day government. Instead of prosecuting the fraud of the bankers and dismembering the Federal Reserve for its failure, the fraud was made to stand by annulling the bank's liabilities, and then the gold of the public was forcibly stolen from them so as to avoid the public's use of gold in competition with banknotes.However, since FDR, the major interest groups that got their way were those that delivered votes (unions, government employees, and some ethnic and religious organizations) and those of the Federal government itself in its everlasting pursuit of greater power. In the hubbub of interests lobying for their slice of your pie, many corporate/finance interests lost out and the partnership with government has been in a slow process of reversal ever since. HI - HAT (06/17/00; 19:21:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 32531) BERSERCK BYZANTIUM We Are So Sophisticated We've Indexed Madness As USAGOLD wrote yesterday in Market Report, in an Einstein Model who can know when critical mass will be reached ?I believe the economic steward genius fiduciaries have a very good idea. Hence the inflation statistics fudging, and some of the reason for the gold manipulations.It is INDEXING. This could be the final straw. Once inflation reaches a point where various "interests", clamor for indexing, we will be at critical mass.Indexing will not do for the World's Reserve Currency.If and when this has to be introduced into all the mathematical equations of all the levels of economic strata (derivatives, etc.), the thundering Niagara is going to interupt the party boat real quick. Aristotle (06/17/00; 17:50:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 32530) Oldgold and the Fed Study http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/ifdp/1997/582/default.htm I wouldn't be too hasty to get my skivvies in a bunch over this Fed staff report. If it is not in fact a commentary on the 1997 International Finance Discussion Paper, then it is likely nothing more than a rehash of the same tired brainstorming by Henderson and Salant.As to the veracity of these staff papers and their impact on actual policy, here is what the Fed has to say about them--"Staff working papers in the International Finance Discussion Paper (IFDP) series are preliminary materials circulated to stimulate discussion and critical comment. The analyses and conclusions set forth are those of the authors and do not indicate concurrence by other members of the research staff or the Board of Governors. References in publications to the International Finance Discussion Paper series (other than acknowledgment) should be cleared with the author(s) to protect the tentative character of these papers."Though this paper has an ominous sounding title, "Can Government Gold Be Put to Better Use? Qualitative and Quantitative Effects of Alternative Policies," I wouldn't worry about the topic overmuch. Given enough time, these staffers will study everything under the Sun. Here's an example of some other earth-shattering research--"The Current International Financial Crisis: How Much Is New?""The Effects of Weather on Retail Sales""Monetary Policy Independence in the ERM: Was There Any?""Should America Save for its Old Age? Population Aging, National Saving, and Fiscal Policy""Long Memory in Emerging Market Stock Returns""Are Oil Shocks Inflationary? Asymmetric and Nonlinear Specifications versus Changes in Regime""Do Pension Plans with Participant Investment Choice Teach Households to Hold More Equity?""The Banking Industry and the Safety Net Subsidy""Minimum Wage Careers?""When Would Educational Standards Help Improve Scholastic Achievement?"Peace of mind. Get you some...Gold! ---Aristotle beesting (06/17/00; 17:15:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 32529) More on Silver(or Gold) Circulation in a Small Country. http://www.egroups.com/message/GoldWorldNet/158?&start=156 To:Sierra Madre,Solomon Weaver,Journeyman,Aristotle,and anyone else who thinks, and believes the little people can change the Fiat system, and go on a real Gold or Silver monetary system. Please click above link....beesting. Aristotle (06/17/00; 17:06:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 32528) Journeyman and ORO Journeyman, on my comments on government and bankers towards ORO yesterday, you said--"Sir Door Mat, you mentioned something like paranoia..."Whoa...hold the phone. I would be very reluctant to use such a strong term that would also imply a degree of "nuttiness." My expression was more of wonder at how one could harbor such impressions of awesome (and evil) power at the hands of these "adversaries" without, in my words of yesterday, being "paralyzed into inaction by fear." It has been my experience that the perceived powers conveyed upon the likes of bankers and various governmental leaders are largely unwarranted. You, Journeyman, have actually done a marvelous job of articulating my personal perception on the matter in your earlier post today. You said--"I have a touch of such paranoia myself, but it's tempered by the knowledge that for the most part governments, because they're not subjected to market comptetion, operate pretty much as the lazy bumblers we normally percieve them to be. They do have some good people, but their main tool, seeing as how they are handily outnumbered, is intimidation. They pick on a few, usually the less informed and politically vulnerable and make examples of them..."In the end, it is the humble billions that are the force to be reckoned with. To live the most successful life, on average, one must be in tune with the thoughts of the people moreso than being concerned with the secret thoughts of bankers and politicians.Gold. Get you some, and ENJOY life on your terms. ---Aristotle Aristotle (06/17/00; 16:16:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 32527) Hill Billy Mitchell--and subsidies I think you've focused on the wrong element of subsidy in your recent example.In a 50% tax bracket, the Government is not providing half of the personal $1,000 donation to the church.From the church's viewpoint, it is quite simple. It has a personal check from HBM for $1,000. Period, end of story.You are being needlessly confused by the admittedly very confusing process of claiming tax deductions. Look at it another way.Let's say I'm the government, and I exact my tax toll for those in the 50% tax bracket by breaking half of the limbs I find them to have at the end of the tax year. If you have two arms and two legs, I will break one of each. However, if you have given up your legs as a donation to the church, when I come to your door, I see that you only have two arms, at which point I break one. Have I, as government, somehow subsidized the church by not traking down your former legs and breaking one of them? And in a closer parallel to your example, I certainly did NOT contribute one of my own governmental legs to the church.No, if any subsidy exists, its that I DON'T visit the church in order to break half of the limbs that I find there in exactly the same manner that I do to everyone else.On another vein, how do you and Journeyman avoid this subtle subsidy in the form of the U.S. Trade Deficit? Every citizen of the country is effectively granted a thousand dollar per year subsidy because our government has in the past managed to secure itself as the issuer of the world's reserve currency, and as a result, we can import $1,000 worth per person of more goods than we export without suffering the inflationary effects of the dollar excess (for the present time, ending soon at a theatre near you). That's a tough "subsidy" to avoid! But in the end, it will take care of itself, and let's hope you are safely on the sidelines with Gold.Gold. Get you some, because subsidies of this kind can't last forever. ---Aristotle oldgold (06/17/00; 16:09:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 32526) US GOLD SALES? Something for the "wise men" here to consider. From the PRIVATEER: But Maybe Some People DO Believe It On June 12, a short article appeared from Bloomberg about a report released by an "economist" who works for the Fed. We have seen no follow up on this article anywhere, except for a couple of mentions of it on Kitco's Discussion Group. The gist of the report was that it is about time that the world's Central Banks stop messing about and get together and sell ALL their Gold. Apparently, the report was prepared in May by this Fed staffer. From the reaction to it so far, we would conclude that no one is taking it seriously. Well, we take it very seriously indeed. In fact, we are devoting the upcoming issue of The Privateer - published on June 18 - to this subject. Why are we taking it seriously? Because the person who prepared this report works for the Fed. People who work for the Fed do NOT release reports like this to the media without having obtained prior approval from the highest levels. We have seen no comment on the report from anyone inside the Fed, or anywhere else in the U.S. Government or Administration. We can recall arguments about getting rid of all the Gold and having done with it - stretching all the way back to the late 1960s - when several Government representatives went on record as stating that once the "support" of the Dollar was removed from Gold, the metal would fall from its then mandated $US 35 oz level. We recall having seen predictions that it would fall as low as $US 5.00. It didn't. Mr Nixon could have just gotten rid of all the Gold in the lead up to August 15, 1971. He didn't. Instead, he "closed the Gold Window" and refused to redeem the U.S. Dollar for Gold - at ANY price. On the surface, the present proposal is just as ridiculous as it has always been. But the timing of the proposal, and its source, is anything but ridiculous. It comes from the Fed, the U.S. Central Bank, which is presently on the horns of a desperate dilemma as it watches the Dollar drop while knowing that another rate hike on June 27-28 would likely prove highly damaging if not fatal to the flagging U.S. stock market. But the timing and the implications of this proposal go far beyond that, which is why we are devoting the upcoming issue of The Privateer to it. Will this proposal resurface, and will it be acted upon? There's no way of knowing. Can the U.S. "persuade" the rest of the world to go along with it. We don't think so. And if the proposal IS acted upon, will it decimate the Gold price? We don't think it will. At present prices, the entire U.S. Gold holding (claimed to be 262 million ounces, a figure which has not changed for more than 30 years), could be bought for $US 75.64 Billion. That's about ten weeks worth of U.S. trade deficit, or enough to keep the U.S. government running for about 2 1/2 weeks. One thing is for sure, the plot is thickening fast. Do you remember the actual statement at the top of the "Washington Agreement" released by the Europeans back in September 1999? This was the agreement which awoke Gold from its slumber: "Gold will remain an important element of global monetary reserves." Perhaps the Fed can convince them that it simply ain't so. What do you think? Aristotle (06/17/00; 15:53:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 32525) tedw--maybe this will (or maybe this won't) help you rest a little easier As a product of your recent historical research, you've produced these words and thoughts--"At the convention they elimanated forever (they thought) the federal government right to issue paper money. They gave Congress the power to "COIN money" and prohibited the states from making "anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt".All of the above being indisputably true, would someone tell me where congress gets the authority to have paper money printed?Can it be that the entire US Government ignores the Constitution and operates unlawfully? Tell me that it isnt so." ----Here's my take on the situation. While our government is most assuredly NOT operating within the SPIRIT of the law, they are seemingly operating within the cracks between the letters of the law. Here's my case.While states were prohibited from making "anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt", can it be said that the States have violated that prohibition? It seems to me that it was the FEDERAL government, not states, which made the paper money a legal tender.And as for Congress being given the authority to coin money, there certainly was no mandate that said they HAD to do so. So in a sense, we have Congress today exercising their right/option to NOT coin money...at least, to not coin circulating Gold and silver currency. Having the issuer (the Fed) of our paper currency exist in the grey area as a quasi-governmental/quasi-corporate entity futher insulated the matter from some of the sticking points in the Constitution.If you don't like it, please don't spend your valueable energy directed at me specifically. I didn't make the rules. I merely try to thrive nonetheless within the parameters that exist, and to strive for meaningful change wherever possible.Gold. Get you some and make YOUR world a better place. ---Aristotle JavaMan (06/17/00; 15:50:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 32524) Hill Billy, hope we can agree to disagree... 1) The local church has "voluntarily" placed itself under the jurisdiction of the state and in fact has become a creation of the state by applying for tax-free corporate status.JavaMan: Actually, I believe the Church is NOT under the jurisdiction of the state which it might otherwise be if it accepted government funds. This is why, for example, a church can (still) display a nativity scene at Christmas time whereas municipalities, universities, community colleges, and other organizations that accept government funds can be denied such freedoms. 2) For those who heed to the scripture a very clear rule has been broken, for the scriptures clearly prohibit the taking of anything from the gentiles (he that hath an ear to hear let him hear)JavaMan: I suspect you may be confusing a message to the Jews for a message to the Church. Would you please provide a scriptural reference for #2? 3) The church by becoming a creation of the state is now subject to the state and depends on the state for its very existence as an entity.JavaMan: The Church was "created" as revealed in the book of Acts and has no dependence on any state for its existence. It has, so far, survived 2000 years of varying degrees of persecution. On the other hand, if the state doesn't like the message coming from a particular church, (note lower case "c") it may pull its tax exemption status but this is nothing compared to the persecution of Christians in other parts of the world. Furthermore, given sufficient incentive, the state could probably be successful in shutting down a troublesome church altogether but that would have no impact on the survival of the Church. 4) Pastors have a vested interest in the level of contributions flowing into the church which determines the availability of cash with to pay the pastor's salary and living expenses, ergo the pastor would not be in a position encourage any church behavior which would displease the government who subsidizes the church.JavaMan: I sure hope not! Perhaps some of the TV evangelists (smile), otherwise, such behavior would be clearly inconsistent with scriptural teaching.5) The donor has been deceived into believing that he or she has tithed when in fact the reimbursement by the subsidizer has cut to gift from the donor in half.JavaMan: When I give money to the church, I interpret my tax break as the government saying "we have no right to tax this money" so the donation is deducted from my taxable income. I, and most others I think, follow the directive from the Bible, "one tenth", not some IRS regulation. 6) The motivation of the donor has the possibility of having been compromised by the simple fact that a tax deduction is available. The gift in other words might not have been made or might not have been quite as large had not the tax deduction (subsidy) not have been available.JavaMan: See my response to #5.7) All parties involved are, as a result of this subsidy, controlled by the government in an area where our founding fathers would never have dared imagine. Freedom of religion has not been infringed upon. The freedom has simply been voluntarily relinquished.JavaMan: see #1 and #3.tedw, what I find most interesting about your #32521 is the statement: "Can it be true that the political science classes throughout America dont teach the students the truth?"That IS quite a feat, isn't it? Leland (06/17/00; 15:47:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 32523) Oh My! Oh My! Hill Billy Mitchell, don't give up! I've got four differentUSA uniforms in my closet. I ain't going to give up, and pleezzzee don't you or anyone else think we're completelygone to hell! It's all up'ta what we teach our children.Be a Teacher, not a Quitter. Amen. Aristotle (06/17/00; 15:18:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 32522) Journeyman and Sierra Madre Hello JourneymanI couldn't help but notice your plea on behalf of Sierra Madre for a response to his silver-related questions. I normally wouldn't touch a silver topic with a ten-foot keyboard, but seeing how closely it was related to a response I gave Totalamateur yesterday, it seems reasonable to offer an extra thought or two. I noticed your own reluctance to offer advice on the merits of your qualifications. With this precedence you've established, I reckon that since I AM going to comment, I had better explain my qualifications to do so.I balanced my checkbook...again.Now that I've firmly established myself as more qualified than most national treasury officers, I can proceed with authority. To begin, I would suggest having a quick look at yesterday's #: 32490 to Totalamateur. It was a rather short post anyway, but in a nutshell, here were his core questions and my responses.He asked, "What is the best thing a small country can do to play it safe in the face of a collapse of the US$?"I SAID: Run a trade surplus, and also get rid of excess dollar holdings before the collapse occurs--use them to buy Gold and other capital necessities. [I can't emphasize the trade *surplus* enough!}He asked, "If a country suddenly declared that they returned to the gold standard, what would happen to their currency and how would it affect the price of gold?"I SAID: As you've stated it, their currency would *become* Gold, and their specific action would DEFINE their price of Gold. As for the Gold's purchasing power, well, that would depend on the collective economic psyche--the shopping decisions--of that little nation's population. However, if they "overvalued" Gold compared to the rest of the world's population, they would be flooded with Gold from the rest of the world in exchange for the nation's exports. Soon, the nation would experience a Gold inflation, and the "overvalued" condition would wane.He asked, "When the dollar collapses, it seems that anyone having a sizable dollar debt would be happy and able to repay that debt with cheap not to say worthless dollars. Is this a correct assumption?"I SAID: It is only correct insofar as the "anyone" that you've mentioned will possess the means with which to acquire these newly cheap dollars. On a national scale, a net exporter could; a net importer could not. (And I ended by saying "These same thoughts may also apply to those of you who have been mulling over a small nation returning to a silver standard.")Expanding these comments to address Sierra Madre's questions specifically--he said/asked, "The next question is equally important: if the price rises ever so slightly, this will encourage more hoarding (saving) and the process will be reinforced. The price going upwards until the population's appetite for silver is quenched - at who knows what level."Well, again as said to Totalamateur, the monetary standard would define the "price." As Americans we don't really talk about the changing "price" of the dollar, do we? The issue is really one of purchasing power, as mentioned above. Having a sizable savings in a sound monetary asset implies security and flexibility for the future. Is there any way to predict at what point individuals' appetites for this cozy condition will be satiated?Sierra Madre said/asked, "Given the circumstances we have mentioned: will the new monetary use being given to silver by the population of this "small country" actually be the determining, marginal factor that sets the price? In this case, the price is no longer determined in New York, but in "the small country" which is using silver as currency."Again, in this context we really need to break the habit of thinking in terms of dollar "prices" for the particular currency being used. In this conjecture, its silver, but consider a parallel example of a Korean shopping with a purse full of wons (Korean currency). When she appoaches the fruit stand, she doesn't care what New York bankers determine as the dollar "price" of the won. All that matters is the dynamic that takes place between the guy with the apples and the lady with her purse. If they can reach a mutually acceptible bargain, wons for apples, then the deal is done, and we can now know the "price" of each in terms of the other. Using this example, if we replaced the apples with Gold, it is in this sense that we would see the very high value placed on Free Market Gold.This is a good moment for an aside. Yesterday Black Blade shared a Reuters article with us in which market analyst Andy Smith demonstrated how much a fool he is willing to make of himself in public. Andy was making the pathetic case that somebody had better pony up millions of dollars in marketing to save the demand for gold, saying it was risky to assume that the physical demand of India would always be there. Then A.S. went on to say, "The relationship between the stock market or insurance market and GDP growth is strong. But as GPD is growing, the real price of gold is falling, yet gold demand is falling too and that's not good. All of this shows there is enough to worry about. As countries get richer, inflation falls, so the demand for inflation hedges falls too." What little Andy omits in his public display of propaganda is the level of worldwide (and primarily Western) Gold demand that is being diverted into paper Gold substitutes such as futures contracts and options. These "investors" may actually THINK they have added Gold to their portfolios of wealth, but in fact they only added yet another variety of paper to their assortment of social contracts which are all subject to risk from human failures. I say, "Eliminate the Gold derivatives, and you will eliminate this Western misperception, thus enhancing physical demand without spending millions of dollars marketing the physical to compete better with the paper derivatives."That's probably enough for this post.Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle tedw (06/17/00; 15:16:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 32521) Oh my god,is it really true? http://www.usagold.com Someone please refute Hill Billy Mitchells statement that the entire US Government is operating unlawfully.Can it really be that the Federal Reserve has no authority to print paper money? Can it be true that the entire Federal Judiciary lets them get away with it?Can it be true that the democrats and republicans never say a word about it? Can it be true that the political science classes throughout America dont teach the students the truth?Can it be true that the average American has been HYPNOTIZED into believing all this things are not so?Someone please tell me we dont live in a world gone mad. Hill Billy Mitchell (06/17/00; 14:37:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 32520) Re: the Pogo post at Kitco @Leland (06/17/00; 10:50:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 32514)Before reading the post which you made available to this forum I had already come to the conclusion that any property owned by an American citizen is unsafe from confiscation no matter where that property is located. Also any property owned by a non-American citizen is unsafe if located in the U.S. The only solution is to remove the property from the U.S. and accompany the property and give up your citizenship.I am not willing to go that far. My citizenship is worth more than my property to me. My property rights derive from my citizenship. If my property is taken from me illegally I still have my citizenship which gives me the right to start over.The Black Avenger says, "Pick a better country." If I were to find one I would be in a dilemma, for at my age I would not be able to once again go to war for my new country to preserve my newfound freedom.Boy what a mess this world is in today. Who shall deliver us? I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord.HBM Hill Billy Mitchell (06/17/00; 14:17:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 32519) Ignoring the Constitution tedw (06/17/00; 10:17:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 32512)You ask, "Can it be that the entire US Government ignores the Constitution and operates unlawfully? Tell me that it isn't so."It is so! State governments operate unlawfully as well. Sorry, you shouldn't have asked.HBM Hill Billy Mitchell (06/17/00; 13:43:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 32518) The naked truth Subsidies @ JourneymanTo my knowledge the most subtle of all subsidies:The 501(c) (3) tax deduction for religious organizations:For those who "voluntarily" comply and willingly place themselves under the jurisdiction of the income tax reporting requirements of the Internal Revenue Code (by filing and signing an income tax return) a special and very complex subsidy is available. Donations (so called charitable contributions) to charitable organizations are deductible from taxable income in order to determine the amount of tax owed.There is a catch. In order for the contribution to be deductible the donee must be qualified as a 501(c)(3) organization. A 501(c)(3) organization is one that meets certain criteria spelled out by the Internal Revenue Code. If these criteria are met then the organization will be classified by the IRS as an exempt organization and will not be subject to income taxes. There are other tax exemptions which apply such as sales tax and property taxes depending upon the various laws in place at the location in which the organization is domiciled. The exemption from tax can be withdrawn by the taxing authority, the IRS, at any time that a determination is made that the organization has violated the rules promulgated by the taxing (regulating) authority, the IRS.Once an organization, ie, a church, places itself under the jurisdiction of the Internal Revenue Code by applying for status as a tax-exempt religious organization that church has an advantage (in the area of generating funds) over other churches and religious organizations which have not applied for the tax free status. How many times have you heard this-- "Your donation is fully tax deductible". There are those who would not give to a church or religious organization any substantial amount were the donation to be classified as non-deductible for income tax purposes. This very fact alone would tend to entice unsuspecting "religious groups" to seek 501 (c)(3) recognition.The greater subtlety lies in the disguised nature of the transaction as regards the donor. For simplicity's sake let us assume that the donor (voluntary taxpayer) is in the 50% tax bracket. If the donation is in the amount of, let us say, $1,000, we may now ask, from what source did the $1,000 charitable contribution derive?The answer:1) $500 was contributed by the taxpayer in question2) $500 was contributed by the governmentHow so? At the time that the contribution is made all funds derive from the taxpayer; however the taxpayer is reimbursed 50% or $500 at the time of "voluntarily" filing his or her income tax return. The taxpayer thinks he has given $1,000 "to his church", when he has in fact entered into an arrangement rather like that of a partnership. The government says, "If you donate to an organization which has the government's blessing, you will be reimbursed for, in this case 50% of that donation in the form of a reduction in your income liability. This is not unlike the government grants which we see everywhere today, ie. if you will come up with the first million dollars the government will match it.We have all kinds of difficulties involved here none of which have developed by accident.1) The local church has "voluntarily" placed itself under the jurisdiction of the state and in fact has become a creation of the state by applying for tax-free corporate status.2) For those who heed to the scripture a very clear rule has been broken, for the scriptures clearly prohibit the taking of anything from the gentiles (he that hath an ear to hear let him hear)3) The church by becoming a creation of the state is now subject to the state and depends on the state for its very existence as an entity.4) Pastors have a vested interest in the level of contributions flowing into the church which determines the availability of cash with to pay the pastor's salary and living expenses, ergo the pastor would not be in a position encourage any church behavior which would displease the government who subsidizes the church.5) The donor has been deceived into believing that he or she has tithed when in fact the reimbursement by the subsidizer has cut to gift from the donor in half.6) The motivation of the donor has the possibility of having been compromised by the simple fact that a tax deduction is available. The gift in other words might not have been made or might not have been quite as large had not the tax deduction (subsidy) not have been available.7) All parties involved are, as a result of this subsidy, controlled by the government in an area where our founding fathers would never have dared imagine. Freedom of religion has not been infringed upon. The freedom has simply been voluntarily relinquished.Please ignore the theological implications if they do not apply to you. Do not ignore what this set-up is all about.What can be done?a) cease from "voluntary compliance"b) be ever vigilant to avoid any and all subsidies. A subsidy by its very nature always has strings attached.As Ernie Chelland says, "nothing is free."NOTE: - To simply abstain from claiming your donations, as a deduction on your tax return does not transform you into one who no longer receives a subsidy. If you file a tax return "voluntarily" you not only, put yourself in line for and immediately receive various subsidies, but you also enable your communist government with facility to grant subsidies to whomever else they desire to control via the redistribution process. " TO THOSE ACCORDING TO THEIR NEED FROM THOSE ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY."Regards,HBMPS: Journeyman please tell me that this exposure of the truth is not repulsive to you. I am feeling rather lonely today. Hill Billy Mitchell (06/17/00; 13:39:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 32517) Naked folsehood--Naked truth Repost:"naked falsehood is only repulsive. What we know to be a lie cannot command our respect…There is in the very framework of the soul an impossibility of feeling toward known falsehood the same as if it were truth. The structure of our being revolts against it. Untruth can only gain credence and acceptance by being so disguised as to appear to be the truth. Falsehood can have no power over us until we are led to believe and conclude that it is the truth…Falsities and treacheries confront us unblushingly at every point. People not only make falsehoods, speak falsehoods, print falsehoods, and believe falsehoods; but they EAT THEM and drink them, and wear them and act them and live them, and make them one of the great elements of their being…A man cannot move, or open his eyes without encountering falsehood and lies. In business in politics, in social life, in professions, and even in what passes for religion, such untruthfulness reigns, that he who would be true scarcely knows any more whom to trust, what to believe, how to move, or by what means to keep his footing, amid the ever-increasing flood of unreality and deception". (emphasis in caps added)The above quote issued exactly 100 years ago. (The Apocalypse, by Joseph Augustus Seiss, originally published in 1900 by C. C. Cook, and reprinted and copyrighted in 1987 by Kregel Publications, Inc., pp. 451-452)___________________________________________________________________________________The naked truth:The post, which follows this post, is the naked truth. I do hope that it will not be repulsive to the readers on this forum. HBM Journeyman (06/17/00; 12:49:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 32516) ALL @Sierra Madre If Sierra Madre is serious about his/her persistent requests for assistance and suggestions, we should do our best to respond.I've been giving this serious thought, but don't feel I have a solid enough understanding of the problems of reconverting in the current fiat world to advise policies that could adversely affect hundreds of people, let alone millions. When I get a better handle on the problem, I'll post what I think, with appropriate ceavats, but I feel certain that other readers and posters here would be willing to put serious effort to putting Sierra on track - - - or at least in touch with people who might be more able to research the problem more thoroughly. Perhaps some at Mises org. or Cato might be willing to take on the problem if we can't here.ORO? Aristotle? Trail Guide?Regards,Journeyman Leland (06/17/00; 11:38:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 32515) This One Reminded Me...The Last Time I Got "Throwed"...From the FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM Updated: Saturday, Jun. 17, 2000 at 01:56 CDT The cowboy way: Present, past ride side by side on trail By Jennifer Radcliffe Star-Telegram Staff Writer Garland Fugitt was as determined as an old-time Texas cowboy -- not even having his fingertip ripped off could persuade the Fort Worth man to miss yesterday's 25-mile Chisholm Trail ride. During lunch on the trail, he boasted of his battle wound, which was wrapped in gauze, and he insisted that he felt no pain. The top of his middle finger was torn off hours earlier as he helped a friend saddle a horse. "I took it in, but they said they couldn't reattach it," said Fugitt, executive director of the Tarrant County Sheriff's Posse. The ride was part of the 24th annual Chisholm Trail Round- Up, a weekend in the Stockyards that celebrates the history of Fort Worth and its place on the Chisholm Trail. The similarities to the western ways of yesteryear were not absolute. Modern cowboys used cellphones and two-way radios to coordinate travel plans. The clicketyclack of horse hooves was drowned out by the roar of passing pickups and 18-wheelers. The riders were accompanied by MedStar's first team of mounted emergency medical technicians. With saddlebags full of medicine, bandages and modern-day equipment, the team made its debut at the ride. The team's services were needed after only 2.4 miles. A 35-year-old Lewisville woman was thrown off her horse about 45 minutes into the ride. The technicians reached her almost immediately after the fall. They examined her and loaded her onto a stretcher. "If we have the equipment there, they can get the best care -- instead of waiting for an ambulance to get there," said Lena Rittenbury, a member of the team. The woman was taken to a Denton hospital and is expected to make a full recovery, officials said. Her name and condition were not released. Team members said their services may be expanded to other events, as well as search and rescue tasks. Members said they are working to find a company willing to make custom saddlebags for heavier equipment. "We come to you in an ambulance. We come to you in a helicopter. Why not by horse?" said team member Roxann Martinez, who was riding Poco Junior, a 14-year-old chestnut quarter horse. Much of the team's work yesterday involved treating problems such as dehydration. Riders grew weary because the horses took more than two hours longer than expected to arrive at the Stockyards. This is the first year for the route from Texas Lil's Dude Ranch in Northlake to the Stockyards. It's the longest distance for the ride in recent years. Luckily, the weather stayed relatively cool, said Dallas resident Gary Janek, who has participated in the ride for eight years. "The wind is blowing, The sun's not shining so bright," he said. "It's great." Riders said they were happy to stretch their horses' legs. It was unclear whether the horses were equally happy. "That's Leo," said Rendon resident John Williams, introducing his 14-year-old horse. "He wants to go to sleep." It is Leo's 10th year in the ride, and every year he gets slower, Williams said. "He doesn't really care much for trail rides," he said. "He just gets bored of them, so he walks so slow." "We should have named him Pokey," said his wife, Sheila. The ride offers old-timers and newcomers to Texas a chance to learn about their roots, John Williams said. "It lets them see really how hard people had it back then, having to go everywhere by horseback. It makes you really appreciate what you have," he said. That may be what keeps people coming back year after year, said Bill Miller, the trail boss. "There's a lot of tradition here," he said. Jennifer Radcliffe, (817) 685-3875 Send comments to jradcliffe@star-telegram.com (Fair Use For Educational/Research Purposes Only.) Leland (06/17/00; 10:50:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 32514) Thanks to "Pogo" at GOLD-EAGLE, we can Now see Where our Government is Looking for More Grabbit The Box 6/16 21:33 Posting re the IRS (pogo) Jun 17, 12:32 Box, this is a lot worse than your European source is saying. I was on a marketing trip 2 weeks ago in the Bahamas and met with the head of the Nassau branch of a medium size Swiss private bank. He told me the Govenor of the Central Bank of the Bahamas had met with IRS officials who informed him of a plan to create quote - qualifying jurisdicstions and qualifying institutions - unquote. Qualification requires an audit by a big five firm of the institutions accounts (all accounts, not just American accounts) with an opinion confirming proper know your customer documentation (i.e. no drug money/money laundering etc.), supervision of operations including money tranfers, oversight etc. Failure to qualify wouuld trigger an automatic 30% withholding on all securities transactions by the non-qualifying institution in the US. In the case of jurisdictions, qualification entails a more subjective assessment (translate as political) by the IRS. Of course, no institution can be qualified in a non-qualifying jurisdiction. Right now, this is the number one foreign policy issue in every offshore financial center (OFC). If implemented, this IRS program provide a direct threat to the continued viability of the OFCs both from increased costs to qualify and by undermining confidentiality of client accounts. That, of course is exactly the intention of the IRS. In the longer run, however, in confluence with an increasingly fragile US economy/dollar/securities markets/credit markets, the unintended consequences of this IRS brainstorm may be unfortunate in the extreme for onshore US holders of US securities for one simple reason. The bulk of the world's deposits are in the OFCs. And at this stage, the US needs foreign inflows much more than offshore liquidity needs to be in the US. Of all man's vices, I seem to recall hubris is the one that really whips the gods into a divine butt-kicking frenzy. Best wishes for a great weekend from Pogo's Hudson Valley hideaway. I think I hear the pool calling. Peter Asher (06/17/00; 10:44:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 32513) RadioShack plans lunar mission http://dallasnews.com/latestnews/96603_moon.html This may be the historical event that marks the beginning of the new paradigm of private enterprise. Space Mining WILL change every economic premise extant today. From Post #1863 >>>Whoever develops a method for extracting vastly larger amounts of energy from matter, without creating radiation, will make Bill Gates look like he's sleeping under a bridge. Our solar system has enough resources from the planets and the asteroids to support centuries of growth limited only by reaction mass and by the ethics of exchange. <<<There is unclaimed Real Estate out there; and all sorts of ways for nations and individuals to make laws and wars over it. tedw (06/17/00; 10:17:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 32512) Not worth a Continental http://www.usagold.com Ive been reading the history of the US Constitution and its clear from reading the remarks of the founding fathers that they were disillusioned with paper money. The Continental Congress had issued fiat money to finance the war, and the resultant inflation gave rise to the expression "not wortha continental".At the convention they elimanated forever (they thought) the federal government right to issue paper money. They gave Congress the power to "COIN money" and prohibited the states from making "anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt".It is clear beyond a doubt from an honest reading of the constitution and the comments of the day that they intended to eliminate paper money forever.All of the above being indisputably true, would someone tell me where congress gets the authority to have paper money printed?Can it be that the entire US Government ignores the Constitution and operates unlawfullly? Tell me that it isnt so. Journeyman (06/17/00; 10:15:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 32511) Governments and such @ORO, Turnaround, Aristotle ORO, I thought dissing "governemnt" was MY job!! And I thought I was pretty good at it too, but your posts yesterday leave me with almost nothing to add. FINE work. Sir turnaround, an understanding of history from your viewpoint would certainly be welcome. I'm looking forward to it.Sir Door Mat (notice the respectful capitals), you mentioned something like paranoia if ORO actually believes what he wrote about government in yesterday's posts. I have a touch of such paranoia myself, but it's tempered by the knowledge that for the most part governments, because they're not subjected to market comptetion, operate pretty much as the lazy bumblers we normally percieve them to be. They do have some good people, but their main tool, seeing as how they are handily outnumbered, is intimidation. They pick on a few, usually the less informed and politically vulnerable (that's why the jail population has the make-up it has) and make examples of them, hoping to scare the rest of us into submission and de-facto tax slavery. They don't have the time and manpower to go after very many, relatively speaking. As the metaphor goes, I don't have to outrun the bear, just one of the many victims.There are, in my opinion, two main causes for the evolution of a group of otherwise well meaning people into the destructive organizations we call "government." The first I already mentioned. "Governments," getting their income by threats, basically at the point of a gun, aren't subjected to the market forces of competition and voluntary exchange that, for the most part, keep other individuals and organizations in line.Second, I'm sorry to report, there are human genes which encourage the individuals bearing them to desire and seek hierarchical control over their fellows. In small-group human societies, such hierarchical "leaders" were kept in check by well established means: ". . . egalitarian decision making, practiced by nomadic groups that keep their leaders on a short leash, has predominated for at least the past 50,000 to 100,000 years, [Christopher] Boehm contends." "These groups vigilantly monitor and control their leaders' access to big game meat and reproductive partners . . . Collective decision making further restrains leaders' personal ambitions." -Bruce Bower, "Return of the Group," SCIENCE NEWS, November 18, 1995, p. 330.In the modern pseudo-small-group world however, these tactics for keeping those bearing those hierarchical dominator genes in check no longer function. As a result we end up with government machinery claiming to help everyone (in order to head-off a revolution) but that in actuallity functions for the "self agrandizement of the charismatic narcisist" as ORO phrased it. We end up with Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Helmut Kohl, etc.Incidentally, ORO, a very tiny nit --- governments don't really play Robin Hood, they only claim to. What they REALLY do is rob from everyone, most of the poor included (that's how many of the poor get that way), and give the loot, directly or indirectly, to their cronies, their brown nosers, suck-ups and hangers on, that is, those with political clout, and lobbists who know how to work the system. The bureaucrats take their piece in salaries, graft, etc. as the stolen (tax) money passes through their hands. Very small amounts ever actually make it through the system to the poor.Regards,Journeyman Leland (06/17/00; 09:55:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 32510) I may be Wrong...But I Think Natural Gas is the key to What Went out of Control First Friday, June 16 2000ATCO follows trend to higher ratesGas attacks heating bills By SUN NEWS SERVICESATCO Gas confirmed yesterday it has applied for an increase to its natural gas rate that will hike theaverage local user's bill by $7 per month. It will be the third rate hike in three months and goes along withrecent gas industry forecasts of higher rates over the next year. Subject to Alberta Energy and UtilitiesBoard approval, the ATCO rate in northern Alberta will become $4.382 per gigajoule effective July 1. TheEdmonton-based utility set its summer gas rate at $2.71 per gigajoule effective April 1, but hiked thatMay 1 to $3.339 per gigajoule, the current rate. The company said ongoing high spot market prices fornatural gas in North America are driving the increases. Some analysts have warned prices could go ashigh as $8 per gigajoule next winter. Natural gas prices have already increased by about 70% this yearand are expected to hike the cost of heating a home by hundreds of dollars. +I don't know long it willbe,+ Linda Cook, CEO of Shell Gas and Power, said yesterday at the World Petroleum Congress. +Wehave to take a long-term view of the market.+ Spot market gas prices stood at about $2.70 per thousandcubic feet in January 7and reached $4.85 this week. +It's all a function of supply and demand,+ saidTexaco CEO Peter Bijur, who predicted a 30% growth in the American natural gas market by 2015.Shell's studies suggest the global market is expected to increase by at least 2.61% a year for the next20 years. Cook says the pressure on domestic prices is unlikely to change until new sources of gasstart flowing from the Arctic or from liquid natural gas imported from overseas. Both of those relief valvesare years in the future - and don't even become economic until gas prices reach about $5. The pressureon the supply-and-demand suppliers is being applied largely by use of natural gas as fuel for electricitygeneration, which is increasing at a rate of 40% yearly. (Fair Use For Educational/Research Purposes Only.) Al Fulchino (06/17/00; 08:33:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 32509) Marius Gold for hot dogs? Nay. Gold as part of the discussion. :) Leland (06/17/00; 08:32:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 32508) On a Saturday Morning...It's Hard to Find...Something Worthwhile on the Internet...This one is Saturday, June 17, 2000 Inside the e-tent In an interview with the Economist Intelligence Unit, Financial Post columnist Paul Kedrosky takes aim at the fashionable jargon of high-tech gurus and argues that the old rules of business still apply Paul Kedrosky National Post You've made a reputation for yourself as a contrarian. What was the last big thing you were right about and how early did you call it? Paul Kedrosky: Well, the last big, big thing was the Y2K silliness. That's probably as big as it gets. I was probably the first major pundit to put my neck on the line with no weasel words, no waffle words whatsoever. I blamed in part our own nervousness about technology and things that go bump -- or maybe beep -- in the night, as well, as to some extent, the folks who had a lot of money to make off the general uncertainty about what was going to happen at the turn of the century to all sorts of systems -- that's a great way to build up consulting fees. In historical terms, how important is the Internet? PK: I think it's incredibly important in historical terms. I make the analogy, and I think it's the most powerful analogy I can come up with, that it's an information utility, not unlike the electrical power grid. It just happens to hum with information as opposed to electricity. In historical terms, this will be looked at as an incredibly important change, both in terms of how we structure society as well as, I suppose, more importantly, for what we're talking about, how we structure and manage businesses. I think it's a huge change, a very important change and one that's understandably gotten us very excited. What do you think is overhyped about the Internet, then, if it's so revolutionary? PK: An analogy that's become overused, but at the time sounded appropriate, is the California gold rush. An awful lot of the early prospectors came up dry, and of course the infrastructure folks, the folks who provided the picks and shovels, did very well. Something very much like that has transpired in the Net space. An awful lot of folks initially in the B2C [business-to-consumer] space got a lot of capital and then beat each other's brains out, and there were no assets left for anybody to collect up. There was really no there there at all, other than a lot of marketing dollars getting spent. People like to put great stock in the daunting and towering intelligence of venture capitalists and how much time they spend looking at these investments. I'm here to tell you that it's farcical, it's not true. Everybody looks for someone else to play lead, as the jargon goes, and if someone else is willing to play lead, then everybody and their cousin on the venture capital front will pile in and fund something. So you end up with this incredible avalanche of financing for no other reason than that someone else has made, in all likelihood, the wrong decision. The exact same thing has happened already in the B2B [business-to-business] space. Sure, there's more money to be thrown around, but that doesn't mean if it's 10 times the size of the market, you can throw a hundred times the amount of capital at the space and hope you can make a reasonable return. You won't. The old world of emerging technology companies was like the 100-metre sprint, where you had maybe a dozen people competing to win the race and each of them carefully trained, highly competitive athletes. What we have now is something more like the Boston Marathon, where you have 20,000 entrants and the odds of any one of them succeeding are commensurately smaller. What mile do you think we're at in that Boston Marathon? PK: If it's in the B2C space, we've just about tagged the finish line. Most of the brands that we currently see are the brands that we're likely to continue to see, folks like AOL Time Warner, Yahoo, possibly a couple of others, Bertelsmann, I suppose. Despite protestations to the contrary, I don't think you're going to see too many new brands emerging in that space. It's just too costly, it's too hard, and the edge isn't proprietary, the edge is mostly just getting your name in front of consumers and, as we've learned, it's pretty easy to blow your financial brains out trying to beat your way into that space. So I'd say we're pretty close to the end of that game. On the B2B side, I think we're racing along pretty fast to be in the exact same position. We're already seeing a lot of rationalization with folks like BEA and webMethods, and many of the poster-boy players in the infrastructure space are busily acquiring, or are being acquired, and they're trying to find a way to effectively roll up a strategy -- to put together a company of sufficient size, scope and scale with enough proprietary technologies that they can actually do something that earns a reasonable rate of return. Why are people so willing to believe that the old rules don't apply? Why have people piled in with such euphoria? PK: It's exciting to believe you are part of a revolution. We've all drunk the Kool-Aid, we've read too many of our own press releases, we've had too many copies of Red Herring dropped on our heads. It's really exciting to believe that, unlike past generations, this is truly a world-changing time to be alive, and in many ways it undoubtedly is, but it doesn't mean that any of the so-called old rules of how you operate and run and exit a successful business have changed ... You can continue to pour capital down the throat of these things, but it doesn't change in the long run what it takes for them to be successful, which is to have some sort of proprietary edge, or some sort of unfair advantage that allows them to stay in business and earn a higher return on capital than other folks who have the exact same idea. Technology is a lousy business. It attracts an unholy number of competitors. The rates of return for all but the number one or two players in a category are atrocious. Who needs it? It's much better to sell thumbtacks. A lot of our users are senior executives forming e-strategies. Do you think they are simply following a management fad or do they really need to do something quickly or die, as the advertisements like to say? PK: I think that's nonsense. I tell people all the time, don't let yourself get stampeded into having to change your business. What is it? "If it's not broken you haven't looked hard enough." Slogans like these are all quick-buck morality stories from companies looking to make a buck, usually on your back, by forcing you to make changes. There are examples that go in the other direction but, in general, most companies that are in an unholy hurry to change their businesses need to really stand back and ask themselves why. It's great from the point of view of a service provider -- if I'm a Razorfish or a Scient, or I'm a consultant in this space whose business is premised on pushing organizations to make radical changes in the structure of their businesses, not unlike past management "fads" like re-engineering. It's easy to stampede companies, but then as an outsider, you can walk away and they're left with having to sort out the consequences. You originally contacted us in response to a three-part interview with Don Tapscott. PK: Yes I did. What bugs you most about Mr. Tapscott's analysis? PK: Well, I suppose it is this priesthood mentality. There is a language that you have to learn. The old language you knew that described your business is no longer appropriate. You need a new language, and new leaders, and I suppose new priests, who can help you understand, who can chant the right words at the right times so the right things pop out. I have a really hard time with that because it creates barriers where there need not be any. Technologists are bad enough at this stuff. They love to create new lingo to hide the fact that what's going on is actually quite simple. That's fair enough, I guess, but whenever people who are working at a managerial level start concocting all sorts of new descriptions of things that sound, when you dive under the surface, incredibly vacuous, there is no way of pinning it down to a single meaning. I pick on phrases like Don's b-webs or digital capital, which sound wonderful at the 20,000- or 30,000-foot level, but dive down and try to make it mean anything, it either turns into something you've already heard of or some other old piece of jargon that's been glossed up and had a "b" or an "e" tossed in front of it -- or it's nothing at all. It's not necessary to muddy the waters by throwing in these extra incantations that only confuse people. I call Don the Anna Kournikova of opinioneering in the sense that his words are so pretty nobody notices that he really doesn't have anything to say. No one notices that Anna doesn't play a particularly good game of tennis because she's such a bombshell. Are there any other e-gurus that you would single out as false priests? PK: I put them in a couple of camps here. There are the Don Tapscotts of the world who have become the gurus of the new economy, but then there are the retooled ones who have zipped up what they were already telling, and I'm not convinced they have a lot more to say -- folks like Gary Hammill. What's the next "new, new thing," at least in terms of hype? PK: The current new, new thing is wireless. If I had a dime for every time someone told me some fabulous wireless technology was going to change the way I did x, y or z, I wouldn't be hanging around universities at all. The new, new thing inside of that new, new thing are location-based services. That's getting everybody hot and excited -- now that we've taken the fuzz factor out of the global positioning system, combining that low-power, very positionally specific GPS with cellular telephones and various services like Vindigo. Wherever you used to want to do locationally specific advertising, you used to look at things like fly-bys with planes dragging big banners behind them. But with location-specific services, suddenly you can do that based on location. You can advertise to people all over the country -- to everyone who's currently walking by a Chinese-food restaurant, or everyone who's anywhere near a beach. So that's the current hot area ... everyone's promising that the economy's going to be transformed because now I can advertise to people based on location-specific services. People have absolutely lost their marbles over that. Source: Excerpted from a June 5 interview for the EIU e-business forum (www.ebusinessforum.com).; Paul Kedrosky is an assistant professor of commerce and information technology at the University of British Columbia and acts as a part-time consultant to venture capitalists and companies launching online ventures. Paul Kedrosky can be reached by e-mail at paul.kedrosky@ubc.ca (Fair Use For Educational/Research Purposes Only.) Leigh (06/17/00; 06:37:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 32507) PH in LA Are you suggesting that Reg Howe IS Trail Guide? Surely that can't be, since Reg Howe is a Canadian, and Trail Guide is an American. Besides, their views are not always the same on every point. Maybe they know each other, though, or maybe they'll meet at the Gold Conference. Gee, I'd be willing to go to the Gold Conference for a chance to find out who TG is! Turnaround (6/17/2000; 3:37:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 32506) ORO 2000 What else can I say to this?Sure, I can add little bits and pieces around the edges, or perhaps suggest a running mate, such as FOA, Aristotle,Aragorn III, MK, Journeyman, etc. Please do not misinterpret- I am as far from an obsequiousman as you may find out there. But I do have a deep appreciation of quality and the finer things in life.My focus these days is an understanding of how history works, perhaps I will be contributing some small token in this regard later.I salute you all, citizens. Turnaround (6/17/2000; 3:37:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 32505) ORO 2000 What else can I say to this?Sure, I can add little bits and pieces around the edges, or perhaps suggest a running mate, such as FOA, Aristotle,Aragorn III, MK, Journeyman, etc. Please do not misinterpret- I am as far from an obsequiousman as you may find out there. But I do have a deep appreciation of quality and the finer things in life.My focus these days is an understanding of how history works, perhaps I will be contributing some small token in this regard later.I salute you all, citizens. Peter Asher (6/17/2000; 1:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 32504) Test Test ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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