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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/16/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 23:48:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 41646)
Recap and Synopsis
Cronus, like Al Gore etc.. are iron willed power lusters who hate the mind and thus seek to control Atlas/Prometheus
Atlas, like Dick Cheney, Gates etc.. are steel willed small souled/(ego) honest minds which naively support Cronus power lust. They like to control nature, not men.
Prometheus, insincere sinners or saints, like Clinton and Carter, are oily golden appearing slick power lusters who use the mind to create dependency and kill Giants/ego's. Black hearted but appear gold hearted.
Giants, sincere independents with smaller minds than Titans but giant gold hearts and souls. Able to act as SINCERE saint or sinner if necessary for purposes of survival. admirer of Atlas, despiser of Cronus and Prometheus. good as gold and thus nearly indestructible.
Olympians, Perfect gold minds and hearts. Immortal and indestructible. Conquerers of Cronus and Titans but friends of Atlas (conquer them by convincing Atlas to quit supporting Cronus and Prometheus with his mind) Seek to undermine dollar by withdrawing Atlases support of it with his prodigious productiveness. So gold wins in the end as it's indestructible unlike iron and steel, gold mind that is. A gold heart is nearly indestructible.
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 23:28:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41645)
Profound wisdom from Zeus, (John Galt) leader of Olympians.. perfect minds with absolute ego's
Cronus, or statist envious mediocrities like Gore etc... are devoid of personal values, goals, and interests which makes them selfless, egoless, iron willed power lusters.
Atlas, or honest thinking capitalist producers and achievers like Gates/Dick Cheney/Perot etc... are steel willed but have small ego's which Cronus uses to enslave to support his dollar against gold and his rationalized force against perfection/individual rights, ie. his statist "warden-like" power lust, and which Prometheus uses to steal and create dependents and kill/depress independents, ie."kill Giants" which is why Reagan/M.J Fox/Scwharzenager/Ford/Dana Carvey all are ailing healthwise.
Prometheus, or dishonsest clever thinking socialist parasites (sinners or saints)/Giant killers like Clinton and Carter have oily slick wills to "slime","molest" and destroy the ego. They are the "SuperEgo" if Cronus is the "ID" with black hearts which they make appear golden to fool the public.
Giants are honest thinkers but have smaller minds than Atlas, but have giant ego's or gold/sincere hearts and souls and are victims of Cronus and Prometheus' malicious dishonesty, and Atlases folly/gullibilty to original sin that makes him support their anti-ego/ideal world. ie. "sanction of the victim", is what Ayn Rand called it, urging him to to shrug to eradicate Cronus and Prometheus, ie. Statism and Socialism (man hatred) freeing the mind and ego from rationalized/criminal force. Giants are independents who may act as sincere gold hearted saints or sinners in order to survive. Examples are Reagan-Bushes
Olympians,are perfectlyhonest thinkers with absolute ego's. They seek to undermine Cronus and the Titans by undermining the dollar by getting Atlas to withdraw his support of Cronus and Prometheus or "shrugging" by letting go of the/their world and dollar for gold. example is me. conquer by undermining just as Prometheus seeks to do to Giants except do to all with Atlas and Giants eventual approval.
Tree of Life
(11/16/00; 22:21:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41644)
Cronus and Titans vs. Giants and Olympians
Call it by whatever name. Some say it is the harlot against the beast. Until the plan is complete the harlot will co-operate with the beasts. Harlot, the US-UK-IMF-Saudi Arabia-Kuwait (New World) axis is still in bed with the beast, the Franco-German-BIS (Old World) until the price is bagged (the World). Then they will tear at one another to give way to their real king. A case of perfecting the use of Hegalian dialectic. Paper and gold are but intermediaries, the ultimate tool is energy to control the nations and food to control the people.
ThaiGold
(11/16/00; 21:54:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 41643)
Attn: MK/CPM
Sierra Madre (11/15/00; 23:43:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41575)
MK/CPM:
Sierra Madre's post about a forthcoming Mexico 1oz silver
Legal Tender coin seems to be of great significance.
Will you be able to obtain/offer them to CPM customers.?.
ThaiGold
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 21:53:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41642)
A social experiment by Zeus at Publix grocery store
I saw the cashier was a Promethian Titan. That means a satyr against Giants or idealism/perfection/gold and for mediocrity/statism/paperdollar. So I openly expressed my idealism to invite her attack. She bit the bait and sneered at me saying openly to all in the store in a satyrical manner, "stay here a play with us, crazy boy". I attacked her back like a Clint Eastwood calling her worthless etc.. and then studied the reactions of a Cronus like medicority and an Atlas like perfectionist to confirm my convinctions, as both gave me the don't mess with my fellow Titan look because our perfect minds are superior to your Giant/ imperfect mind and perfect ego.(like they all did to John Rocker) But I gave them the tight smiled I'm not a Giant you pathetic Cronus and Titans, I'm Zeus, leader of the Olympians, and my mind and soul/ego are both perfect, and I've come to conquer you and your small mediocre ego and dollar. I going to short squeeze you short sold spritual munchkins/Lilliputans, and they could only look dumbfounded at me as I walked away telling myself that I don't endure these fools and their pathetic insolence gladly.
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 21:34:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 41641)
Corrections
Cronus and the Titan's (paperbugs) have crucified the Giants (goldbugs) on a cross of paper, a wood cross, not a cross of gold. A cross of gold is what we Olympians will use to conquer Cronus and the Titans freeing the Giants from their wood/paper/dollar cross putting all on a gold standard which Cronus and Titans oppose but Olympians and Giants favor except only the Olympians have the mind power to do so. Giants can only win battles against Cronus and the Titans but they can't conquer them, "win the war", because their minds are short relative to the minds of the Olympians, Cronus and the Titans, though their souls equal the Olympians and are vastly superior to the souls of Cronus and the Titans.
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 21:32:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41640)
Corrections
Cronus and the Titan's (paperbugs) have crucified the Giants (goldbugs) on a cross of paper, a wood cross, not a cross of gold. A cross of gold is what we Olympians will use to conquer Cronus and the Titans freeing the Giants from their wood/paper/dollar cross putting all on a gold standard which Cronus and Titans oppose but Olympians and Giants favor except only the Olympians have the mind power to do so. Giants can only win battles against Cronus and the Titans but they can't conquer them, win the war, because their minds are short relative to Olympians, Cronus and the Titans though their souls equal the Olympians and are vastly superior to the Titans.
Canuck
(11/16/00; 21:27:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41639)
@ Galearis
I'm not worried about the 'sprinkling' of metal in the yard. I have engineered and designed a 'auto-amoured-anti-detection' surveillance system in my yard.
I have 6 automatic weapons nailed to fence-posts around the property. A self-designed 'video-scanner' PCB is mounted to each weapon. The boards are connected via fibre-optic cable to a central server. The server then feeds a dozen or so Pentium 6, 3333Mhz P.C.'s throughout my house to monitor the backyard. I have 21 inch flatscreen, touchscreen monitors that upon recognition of an enemy in the yard can be deployed to armour the system. Upon a simultaneous CTRL-ALT-DEL keystroke command I can 'remove' a villian from the backyard.
I must leave now, my PC is reminding me of a timed defragmentation process and I must get the dog from the yard.
Talk to you tomorrow.
elevator guy
(11/16/00; 21:24:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41638)
@Galearis
OK, I hear and respect your opinion.
It was fun disscussing it with you.
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 21:16:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 41637)
The whole world has sold it's soul and money short to mediocrity and the dollar against perfection and gold
That's what causes everyone (Cronus and Titans), except goldbugs (Giants and Olympians), to be afraid and guilty and thus be bullish on stocks and bonds. (When you sell yourself/soul short to gold/perfection you fear it and act against it) Atlas, the Titan mind like Gates etc..., has sold his soul and money short to Cronus mediocrity like Gore etc.. for the privilege of supporting the world. Prometheus, the Titan criminal mind like Clinton etc..., has sold his soul and money short to Cronus mediocrity statists like Gore etc... for the privilege of robbing Atlas and supporting parasitical dependents. The Giants, like Reagan/Bush/Lieberman have sold their mind short to Cronus mediocrity statist like Gore etc.. in order to keep their soul and money long in gold and thus they rebel against and oppose the Titans but can't conquer (but can win battles against like Reagan & U.s hockey team in 80 did) the Cronus statist mediocrities. The Olympians like me are like Giants except we didnt sell our mind short to Cronus like the Giants and are thus destined to conquer Cronus and the Titans freeing the Giants from their cross of Gold by establishing a gold standard. We will do so by conquering Atlas because his mind supports their/this rotten world and the dollar against our ideal perfect world, a world of individualism, independence, freedom, ego, and happiness, and gold.
ET
(11/16/00; 21:13:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41636)
Mr. Gresham
Hey Mr. G - I concur with Elwood. Mises had a lot to say and he writes in the older style with an economy of words. I personally prefer the textbook rather than the online version. Just yesterday we find part is missing but I'm sure they'll have it back up soon.
Like Rothbard's "Man, Economy and State", I found the easiest and most fulfilling way to read was one section a day. It gives you time to think about how timeless these two writer's thoughts were. I treated them more as a college course.
Old Journeyman thinks Mises might be a bit dated but I think if he sat down and read the entire "Human Society" chapter he would change his mind. People are just now coming to understand the brilliance of "Human Action". Happy reading!
Canuck
(11/16/00; 21:12:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 41635)
Confession
I pulled a real dork move a month ago. I bought into a long shot that is going bankrupt, apparently on the verge of getting re-financing, hoping for a 3 or 4 'bagger'. The deal went sour, I lost a grand. Not a huge chunk of money but I was getting greedy, the 4 'bagger' I thought,"...would get me lots of silver...". I dragged my sorry ass into the 'silver store' and bought $1,000 worth of silver. It's tucked away and I remind myself, " Don't pull that paper stunt again, but the metal and play the waiting game." I am convinced this game has a given outcome, paper burns, metal does not.
Canuck
(11/16/00; 20:58:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41634)
@ Galearis
...safety deposit box(es) I might add (bragging, getting a nice nest egg of silver to complient the 'yellow').
Silver, which is hedging the gold, which is hedging the gold stocks, which is hedging the oil stocks, which is hedging the paper(tech stocks).
A great big damn hedge, however as time rolls I do find 'assets' shifting down to safer 'money'; real money.
I hope to be safely in 'metals'(physical) when the paper burns. Metal, no matter the discussion, is the bottom line.
Galearis
(11/16/00; 20:58:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 41633)
@ Canuck...
Now that's what I call a good dealer...(for silver, MK)
Hold onto that one, sir Canuck. My dealer charges about $1.50CAN over spot for smalls. $0.50 over per for larger weight.
(I haven't looked at paper silver lately so it may be a ball park situation in price at his store too.)
Thanks for the info on the over $1000 for transactions. I will keep it in mind.
And don't forget to bury some scrap metal over your backyard/wherever stash. In fact bury a lot of scrap around. Not the sterling stuff though.(smile)
Regards,
G.
Elwood
(11/16/00; 20:49:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 41632)
Mr Gresham (11/16/00; 18:28:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41619)
http://www.mises.org/humanaction.asp
Mr. G, please accept some humbly-offered advice. When reading Human Action for the first time it's better to skip the first 200 pages or so then come back to them later. For such a profound treatise, small chunks, taken with a healthy dose of introspection are best.
Regards,
Elwood
Canuck
(11/16/00; 20:47:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41631)
@ Galearis
Good guy in Ottawa; anything above 5 oz. he charges per ounce. Example, a couple days ago he was selling 10 oz. for $76 CDN. Ten oz. bars are my personal favorite, my reasoning? I am assuming a 'ten bagger' for silver, thus $770 for a 10 oz. bar. I have heard 'the feds' want to hear about foreign exchange deals greater than $1,000.
Secondly, I keep silver in the safety deposit box, gold is buried, I hope I remember where!
Midas Mulligan
(11/16/00; 20:45:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41630)
Be a bull .... ill tell you why
It's time for goldbugs to buy stocks and bonds because I'm going to revive the bull market. A bull market is a subconscious angry reaction against perfection using hatred of, or rebellion against, mediocrity/imperfection as an excuse. Thus it is an irrational love of paper dollar assets (saints like bonds, sinners like stocks) and an irrational hatred of gold, which is perfect, money. Only the non saint, non sinner, non mediocre independents like gold and these are Giants who are crucified by the Cronus medicority statists and their Titan supporters. (example Gates is Atlas Titan while Clinton is Promethian Titan) My prescence as Zeus the perfect Olympian angers and scares Cronus and the Titans into a bull like rage causing stocks and bonds to soar and gold and the Giants to be attacked and depressed. So I'm investing my money in calls S&P etc... and then I'm going to make my prescence felt to Cronus and the Titans to get them into a fear and guilt ridden bull market rage against gold and for paper so I can use them to drive up my calls. Then I'll sell my calls and buy gold and repeat this cycle over and over until I've accumulated lots of gold. Buying gold is how you conquer Cronus and the Titans because the purchase of gold drains value and potency out of the dollar which is what keeps them going.
Canuck
(11/16/00; 20:39:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41629)
Silver
I just read Ted's comment on silver. I like Ted Butler but I just don't see his numbers. How does he feel there is some enormus multiple of above ground gold than silver?
Cavan Man
(11/16/00; 20:13:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41628)
FT (today)
Toyota announced they will not make a profit during next two years from their operations based in UK due to currency woes.
Galearis
(11/16/00; 20:04:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 41627)
@ Sir OregonBeerForce (I really like THAT sound!)
Ted's article.....
Yes Ted's really the MAN when it comes to silver.
But to try to answer your question, I really do not think it makes any difference what form in which you buy your silver. Except: one troy ounce coins are slightly more expensive by a factor of + or- 30% premium added because they are hedged and because there is also collector demand for them. Some would believe this to be a liability should the enlikely event occur of government confiscation. ("They" may consider paying not silver spot but face value during the coming chaos.)
I prefer bullion wafers. A troy ounce is a troy ounce after all. You can also buy 5, 10, 50, 100, and 1000 oz bars. (Take a friend or two if you buy the last one). In Canada there is no tax on bullion. The larger the bar, the closer to spot one can purchase them. This is obviously a factor of differences in liquidity related to weight - the smaller bullion items being more easily "spent".
Find yourself a good coin/bullion dealer. Often they can give you a better deal than a bullion bank (that may add questionable bar charges etc - and they may keep records too - which you don't want!!! Last tip: don't keep this stuff in a bank safety deposit box. Bury it somewhere.
Hope this helps. And welcome to the forum.
G.
Canuck
(11/16/00; 19:57:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41626)
Comment
You know....there's something going on that we don't know about.
I have never seen a tornado........I wonder if it's going to be like that?
Bonedaddy, that was agrave post, that bad?
Journeyman
(11/16/00; 19:38:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 41625)
Thanx for context @ET
Hi ET!
Thanx for the context on Mises quote. I really hate it, but I think he IS a little out of date, or at least this is one thing he has sort of slightly wrong. I guess he just wasn't _completely_ omniscient about everything when he wrote Human Action in 1949! Only held up completely for 51 years. Bummer.
I'll post when I get it all together -- or think I have.
Regards,
Journeyman
P.S. Did get to gold -- late last night in msg#: 41578.
Tree of Life
(11/16/00; 19:37:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41624)
Agenda for the World
To Pandagold and Christopher:
Excellent Post. By now, if we are looking at the whole global financial manipulation as purely for financial gains then we are all deluding ourselves. I have been taught there are three important biblical principles towards money:
Ecclesiastes 10:19 "but money is the answer for everything."
Proverb 22: 7 "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender."
II Timothy 6: 10 "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."
If we want to know the truth we must understand money but our hearts must be free from it. It is commonly known that the word money comes from the French word "moneie" which comes from the Latin word "Moneo". "Moneo" represents the pagan goddess "Juno Moneta". Throughout man's history money is worshipped, "Genius & Juno" in Roman times, "Zeus & Hera" in Greek times and "Baal and Ashtoreth" in Old Testament times. Juno, Hera and Asthoreth is one and the same the goddess of fertility and the goddess of war. Take a close look at the seal of the Bank of England and also the great seal of America at the back of the one-dollar note. You will see both the man (seal of BOE) and the eagle (USA) hold on one hand the weapons of warfare and the other the symbol of harvest. Only deep religious belief can bind man to go beyond personal ambitions to foment schemes through the past two hundred years to create a unified global power that transcend national boundaries.
What is the agenda then? Go no further than the recent Millennium Conference – a one-world government. The Club of Rome has in the sixties designed that the world is to be governed through ten regions. They are:
1.North America - NAFTA
2.Western Europe - EU
3.Japan
4.Australia, South Africa, and the rest of the market-economy of the developed world.
5.Eastern Europe, including Russia
6.Latin America
7.North Africa and the Middle East
8.Tropical Africa
9.South and Southeast Asia
10.China
This will be achieved initially through armless conquest, i.e. through money powers (rider on the white horse) . Through recent financial history we know that Mexico was taken hostage in 1994, Japan in 1995. The attack of SE Asia was initiated in 1997 (continuing) and Russia in 1998. The launch of the Euro in 1999 was for the pan European conquest. It looks the rest of Latin America will be hit in 2001. We are waiting to see whether the master plan of one world government foretold to Mazzini on August 15, 1871 concerning the use of two revolutions and three world wars will indeed happen. Objectives for World war I & II already accomplished. We note, particularly world war III is to be invoked through a conflict in the Middle East.
As a bible prophesy student, I read with enthusiasm God's message in the Book of Revelation.
I have come to realized a long time ago that even if I totally use all my left brain for logic and my right brain for creativity, to even synchronize the alpha waves of the two lobes I can no more than harness 5% of my brain's capacity. I learned that my input through sight, sound, smell, touch and temperature senses are too limited and so I humbled myself to seek God. In his mercy, He led me to Christ and the truth is revealed. I now accept the highest form of knowledge comes only from God's revelation and the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
lamprey_65
(11/16/00; 19:18:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41623)
Market crash could be right around the corner, folks
October is over -- where's the rally? Well, that must be what the dipsters are wondering at this moment...of course, they are blaming the market's current troubles on election foibles. This is just nonsense, of course...it's THE EARNINGS (or lack thereof), STUPID!
The Nasdaq is trying to find 2700 for short term support...but the big houses (led this weakend by Abby Cohen) are trying to slow the process so as to buy time to dump more shares at higher prices. Just another example of price fixing in the markets...something we know plenty about on this forum. Option expiration is tomorrow and they can't even keep the latest rally attempt going until then?...
Looks to me like the jig is up.
Oh, anyone notice how whenever Gore has good news in Florida the markets sell off and the dollar comes under pressure?
dragonfly
(11/16/00; 18:46:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 41622)
Gold Mine Controversy in Montana
http://sln.fi.edu/inquirer/gold.html
The following is an excerpt from the link above.
-----------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
COOKE CITY, Mont. - Henderson Mountain is littered with the ghostly remains of long-dead mining ventures - dilapidated log cabins; collapsed wooden towers that supported tram cars; rusting machinery used to sift the ore that was supposed to make men rich beyond their wildest dreams.
On a brisk summer afternoon, Jim Barrett stands amid this wreckage at 8,800 feet, watching a poisonous orange stream of acid mine drainage trickle out of a decades-old mine shaft. This tableau of the boom-and-bust West looks like ancient history, failed dreams that are beyond resurrection.
But just a few yards from Barrett stands a corrugated-metal building that is very much of the present. It belongs to Crown Butte Mines Inc., and it represents a 1990s version of the Gold Rush. Crown Butte says that the old prospectors just missed striking a lode that holds an estimated $600 million in gold, silver and other metals; the Canadian-controlled company plans to hollow out Henderson
Mountain and go after the trove.
There is, however, a hitch, and an enormous one at that. The New World mine site lies less than three miles from Yellowstone National Park. And Crown Butte's mining plans have touched off furious opposition around the country, with critics saying the venture threatens not only America's greatest national park, but also one of the West's most scenic rivers.
President Clinton has been drawn into the controversy. So has the United Nations. Crown Butte executives seem stunned by the fierce campaign being waged against them. Through it all, one thing seems clear: The definition of wealth in the West is changing rapidly. Here in Montana, it's the beauty of the hills themselves - and not necessarily the gold that's in them - that means more to many local citizens.
"The majority of people don't see any reason to have a mine in this spot - it's just not acceptable to do this today," said Barrett, who heads a local group, known as the Beartooth Alliance, that is fighting the proposed mine. "We've seen the boom-and-bust economies. Now we've got a viable recreation- and tourist-based economy here.
"There's no fundamental reason to endure that kind of long-term pollution for some gold and a short-term profit. There's no such thing as a good mine in this place."
It is, in fact, the site that has brought so much heat down upon Crown Butte Mines. Henderson Mountain, which rises to 10,300 feet, is in the Beartooth Range 2.5 miles from the northeast corner of Yellowstone Park. Opponents argue that Crown Butte's plans are so sweeping that they threaten not only the park but also the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness and the Clark Fork of the Yellowstone River, Wyoming's only National Wild and Scenic River.
In essence, Crown Butte plans to hollow out much of Henderson Mountain, extract gold and silver, and then pack some of the waste rock and byproducts, known as tailings, back into the mountain. Critics maintain that acid mine drainage from Henderson Mountain threatens three watersheds, including Soda Butte Creek, which flows into the Lamar River - one of the most beautiful valleys in Yellowstone Park.
Crown Butte also plans to dispose of up to 5.5 million tons of additional tailings by covering them with water and placing them in an enormous impoundment that would occupy the valley next to the mountain. The impoundment, which would be sealed in by clay and a layer of plastic, would be three-quarters of a mile long, 70 football fields in area, and 90 feet high. Critics say that, given the intense
seismic activity and enormous landslides in the Fisher Creek valley, the impoundment could burst, sending a toxic river of waste into the Clark Fork.
Crown Butte argues that the impoundment technology, which has been used in Canada and Scandinavia, is safe and that its venture will clean up old mining sites now polluting the area.
President Clinton was pulled into the controversy in late August when he flew over the New World site and later issued a two-year moratorium on federal mining claims in an adjacent 4,500-acre area. The decision doesn't directly affect the New World mine. But Clinton said earlier that he was "very worried" about the mine. "No amount of gain that could come from the mine could possibly offset any permanent damage to Yellowstone," he said.
Still, the President said state and federal officials must await the completion this fall of an environmental impact statement before making a decision. The U.S. Forest Service, which is part of the Department of the Interior, and the Montana Division of State Lands are working on the impact statement; either agency could prevent the project from going forward.
From Sept. 7 to Sept. 11, an international inspection team from UNESCO visited Yellowstone to determine if the world's first national park should be declared a World Heritage Site in Danger because of the proposed mine. UNESCO uses such a designation to call attention to threatened areas around the world; Yellowstone was designated a world heritage site in 1978.
ET
(11/16/00; 18:40:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41621)
Serbia Deploys Peacekeeping Forces to US
http://www.theonion.com/onion3641/serbia_deploys_forces.html
From the article;
"For democracy to take root and flourish, it must be planted in the rich soil of liberty.
And the cornerstone of liberty is elections free of tampering or corruption," Kostunica said.
"Should America prove itself incapable of learning this lesson on its own, the international
community may be forced to take stronger measures."
ET
(11/16/00; 18:36:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41620)
Nation Plunges Into Chaos
http://www.onion.com/onion3641/nation_plunges_into_chaos.html
From the article;
"Alan Greenspan, who established the Fed-In-Exile in Paris last Friday, has announced a freeze on the
markets until order can be restored. He has temporarily fixed the value of the U.S. dollar at $15 Canadian."
Mr Gresham
(11/16/00; 18:28:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41619)
Bonedaddy, ET, Pandagold
Thanks, Bonedaddy, for a sharp summary of our situation. Since Y2k preparations, I haven't thought in terms of threat assessment; I'm not used to it, it's new territory, and I've gotta make myself practice _occasionally_ looking at my surroundings that way.
ET -- Thanks for the von Mises passages. He really seems to be the missing hole in my education and attempts at philosophy. He addresses the liberal-conservative dichotomy today and has a corrective for just about everyone's blind side. Gotta read more. Now where did I have that link to the text of Human Action?
Pandagold -- I have a weakness for good writing in English like yours. I'll have to read you again and ask for clarification, as we've been told about "agenda"s of different types and levels of alarm. What's interesting to me is that, while you make religious references elsewhere, you do not label the "agenda" as one of those ancient, conspiratorial ones requiring the ardent opposition of the faithful. Function of being British rather than American, I guess? Me, I have a mild curiosity about most of those theories, without ever having landed on believing in any particular one. I look forward to reading your further insights offered here.
dragonfly
(11/16/00; 18:17:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41618)
Prospecting
http://www.goldprospecting.net/pages/recent.htm
That's me in a few years. Just putzin around diggin up nuggets. Suppose that's a good enough reason for an unconcealed carry permit? Ahh, the good life!!
Regards,
dragonfly
Bonedaddy
(11/16/00; 17:54:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41617)
Hard landing? Get hard currency.
http://www.iht.com/articles/1602.htm
Patience, patience, it isn't a train wreck we're on the alert for. Picture a large ship, listing ever so slightly, a little more each day. The current economy is an ideal, a wispy feeling, not an objective fact. When stock holders will buy stock with out expecting dividends in return, the market is built on hope alone. A dividend is the only rate of return. Those not seeking dividends are seeking price appreciation alone. But without dividends to compare to price (P\D ratio), there is no mechanism for price discovery. With no mechanism for price discovery, how does one assess risk vs. return? The new pricing mechanism is run by momentum. The new paradigm, it has been called. Well, the SS Paradigm is taking on water.
Bad news out weighs good news in the world now. Energy prices could drop by 30% and still be heavy enough to sink this ship. The Mid-East is in a horrible mess again. Who knows where the U.S. Presidential election will end up? Shake off the disbelief! This is really happening. One of the main reasons people freeze in life treatening situations is that their minds cannot conceive that the event is really happening.
Please my friends, this is critical to any type of survival: Train your mind to assess threats. Prepare appropriate responses to the threats. Practice the responses until they are reflexive.
When the event unfolds, you say to your self:
I thought this would eventually happen, and here's what I'm going to do about it. Your reflexes take over and you don't panic. Scared is normal, panic is bad. Prepare not to panic.
Gold is really inexpensive right now.
wolavka
(11/16/00; 17:25:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41616)
night moves
I think that was a song? well base looks good in dec gold, see if we can run it tonite, objective 270. looks good
dollar closed upside gap , one last push here and it's finished.
Big trade wars coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! seeing lay offs and real estate flood mkt.
Hard times are coming!!!
OregonBeerForce
(11/16/00; 17:16:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41615)
Galearis re: silver
Good article from Ted Butler. I've wondered myself why more of the big players have not tried to set off a short squeeze in either gold or silver considering the relatively low volumes. Maybe they don't want to make the wrong kind of enemies?
But I have a question about silver investing: why are bags so much more popular than bullion? Is it because people are planning on using the coinage as money if the dollar system breaks down, or because they are easy to sell? I've been planning on buying some silver to go along with my small gold holdings, but with the price so cheap I don't see any reason not to buy bullion bars. Am I overlooking something obvious here? Does it sell in 100oz bars? Thanks anybody who feels like responding.
wolavka
(11/16/00; 16:53:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41614)
This political thing
is sick. Secret service better ask for pay raise. This is not going to end as you expect.
ET
(11/16/00; 16:46:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 41613)
Journeyman
Hey J - just a followup concerning the anarchy question even though our friend JavaMan is unable to continue.
Mises' second section under Human Society regards "A Critique of the Holistic and Metaphysical View of Society" in which he presents his views concerning government via Diety. ORO has done a great job in relating the problems in this area.
Mises said, "They (the supporters of government via theology or the pseudo-religions; socialism, statolatry and nationalism), are forced to ask people to accept credulously their ideological system and to surrender to the authority they consider the right one; they are intent upon silencing dissenters or upon beating them into submission."
As Elwood noted, Mises rarely minced words! He continues;
"Of course, there will always be individuals and groups of individuals whose intellect is so narrow that they cannot grasp the benefits which social cooperation brings them. There are others whose moral strength and will power are so weak that they cannot resist the temptation to strive for an ephemeral advantage by actions detrimental to the smooth functioning of the social system. For the adjustment of the individual to the requirements of social cooperation demands sacrifices. These are, it is true, only temporary and apparent sacrifices as they are more than compensated for by the incomparably greater advantages which living within society provides. However, at the instant, in the very act of renouncing an expected enjoyment, they are painful, and it is not for everybody to realize their later benefits and to behave accordingly. Anarchism believes that education could make all people comprehend what their own interests require them to do; rightly instructed they would of their own accord always comply with the rules of conduct indispensable for the preservation of society. The anarchists contend that a social order in which nobody enjoys privileges at the expense of his fellow-citizens could exist without any compulsion and coercion for the prevention of action detrimental to society. Such an ideal society could do without state and government; i.e., without a police force, the social apparatus of coercion and compulsion.
"The anarchists overlook the undeniable fact that some people are either too narrow-minded or too weak to adjust themselves spontaneously to the conditions of social life. Even if we admit that every sane adult is endowed with the faculty of realizing the good of social cooperation and of acting accordingly, there still remains the problem of the infants, the aged, and the insane. We may agree that he who acts antisocially should be considered mentally sick and in need of care. But as long as not all are cured, and as long as there are infants and the senile, some provision must be taken lest they jeopardize society. An anarchistic society would be exposed to the mercy of every individual. Society cannot exist if the majority is not ready to hinder, by the application or threat of violent action, minorities from destroying the social order. This power is vested in the state or government."
Journeyman, as you know, Mises was not by any means a proponent of big government or much of any government at all but recognized the problems with anarchy. Ayn Rand would probably have fallen closer to your position. Mises believed that eventually those in power would be tossed out of office if they drifted far from the majority view which elected them initially. But he foresaw the problems we see today;
"The liberals (classical liberals) too believe that a nation should be ruled by those best fitted for this task. But they believe that a man's ability to rule proves itself better by convincing his fellow-citizens than by using force upon them. There is, of course, no guarantee that the voters will entrust office to the most competent candidate. But no other system could offer such a guarantee. If the majority of the nation is committed to unsound principles and prefers unworthy office-seekers, there is no remedy other than to try to change their mind by expounding more reasonable principles and recommending better men. A minority will never win lasting success by other means."
That pretty much explains why we're here doing what we do. Our host at this forum has my thanks for the opportunity to try to convince people of a better way as I see it. Thanks Journeyman for a most stimulating discussion and please continue if you like. We'll be getting to the part concerning gold real soon! <g>
turkey hunter
(11/16/00; 16:20:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41612)
Bank Buying Pulls Gold to 3-Week High
http://aolpf.marketwatch.com/source/blq/aolpf/archive/20001116/news/current/sector_metal.asp
Thought someone might like to read this. Long URL hope I got it right.
Turkey Hunter
YGM
(11/16/00; 14:01:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41611)
Knallgold....
Hi back to you..
The stoneworms (tailing piles from Dredges) would remind many of the Sandworms of Dune...(looking for Spice)....
As for Gold/Drugs Medicine one might be surprised to see what I learned earlier today re Gold & Medicine from Pamp site...
Regards to you in Europe...YGM
..............................................
From Pamp.
The most significant genuine medical use of gold, developed in clinical trials in the 1920s, is in the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis. A very mild solution of gold cyanide, at a concentration of only 0.5ppm is injected into the patient's muscles in cautiously increased doses to a level of 25 milligrams per week. The gold solution inhibits the growth of the tubercle bacillus which causes the disease and considerable relief is achieved after about six months. Gold also has a limited application in the treatment of cancer, in which "seeds" of radioactive gold-198 are used.
The most widespread belief in the medicinal benefits of gold persists in India, where it is used in Ayurvedic medicine for many ailments such as sclerosis, cirrhosis of the liver and hardening of the arteries. An official allocation of about 75 kilos a year has long been made to India's pharmaceutical manufacturers for these remedies.
Metallic gold is biocompatible with the body and resists corrosion. It has found increasing application in dental and biomedical applications such as crowns and bridges, implants, pacemaker wires, etc.
Galearis
(11/16/00; 13:00:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41610)
A new one from Ted Butler on silver/gold
www.doomgloom.com
I thought this an important read and worth the bandwidth...
Enjoy
G.
WEEKLY COMMENTARY
November 13, 2000
I received this letter recently from silver analyst, Ted
Butler: I hope you read and enjoy it.
Dear Jim:
I'm glad to hear you are getting the word out on silver, and
that the response has been good. I want to see you sell a
bunch of silver. Putting people into silver right now will
result in them making great gains. As you know, I don't
think people have much more time to take advantage of
these low prices.
To make the case for silver one of the things I wanted your
customers to see was how much more gold there is in
inventories around the world, than there is silver. Of the
125,000 to 175,000 tons of gold mined since the dawn of
civilization, I would use a low ball figure of 50,000 tons
currently in bullion form. 50,000 tons isn't too high, when
you consider that the Central Banks are listed as owning
30 to 35 thousand tons alone. In fact, there is probably
more than 50,000 tons. There's 32,000 ounces of gold in a
ton so that equals 1.6 billion ounces. There are 1.6 billion
ounces of gold in world inventories. Compare that to 120
million ounces of silver.
That's right, silver has a verifiable world bullion
inventory of maybe 120 million ounces. This would
include COMEX warehouse stocks (the largest stockpile
in the world), all other world commodities exchanges, and
all known government stockpiles. COMEX silver stocks
are down 250 million ounces to under 100 million ounces
over the past few years, a drop of 70%.
To account for all the private, non-reported silver, let's
now triple the amount of bullion silver in the world to 300
million ounces. Now I know that we produce many more
ounces of silver each year from mining, than we do gold.
And I know that over the course of world history, we have
produced many billions more ounces of silver than gold,
but all those extra billions of ounces of silver have been
consumed in the past 50 years. Because of a half century of
consuming more silver than was produced, there is a lot
less silver left than gold.
There is more than five times as much gold in the world as silver. If people were aware of that, as you must make
them aware, they would switch from gold to silver in a
heartbeat. Let's face it, one of gold's major attributes
is its
known scarcity. All the gold mined since the dawn of man
would approximate the dimensions of the Washington
Monument. Gold is a scarce commodity. But silver is five
times scarcer. Its supply is one-fifth the size of the
Washington Monument. Gold should explode in price
soon. But it will be nothing like silver.
There is five times as much gold in the world as silver, but
that does not begin to tell the true story. The price of gold
is 55 times more expensive than silver. Jim, I want you to
take the price of gold and multiply it by the number of
ounces in inventory. $265 per ounce times 1.6 billion
ounces. That comes to $425 billion. There is a gold
inventory in the world of $425 billion.
Do the same equation for silver. $4.70 per ounce times
300 million ounces. That equals about $1.4 billion total
world silver inventories. We have $425 billion worth of
gold in the world (probably much more) versus $1.4
billion worth of silver (probably much less). The real
Gold/Silver Ratio is not 55 it's 300. Let me state it this
way - there is 300 times more gold than silver in the world
on a straight dollar comparison. In other words, the value
of all the gold in the world is priced more than 300 times
all the silver. This is one of the reasons that I insist
that the
price of silver is wrong. One of your main responsibilities
is to sell value to your customers. You can't provide a
better value than to get them into silver.
95% of all the gold mined in a year goes into jewelry or
bullion equivalent investment. Only a small percentage of
gold is consumed industrially. That's why the world still
possesses just about all the gold ever mined. By that
measure, a reasonable headline might read. "Gold in
Existence Hits 5000 Year High Point". Silver, on the other
hand, sees its entire world mine production consumed
industrially, and then some. ("Then some" means we also
consume a big chunk of remaining inventories
industrially). This industrial consumption has continued
unabated for 50 years. Thus, a reasonable headline for
silver might read, "Silver World Inventories Hit 250 Year
Low Point". Where do you think your customers are likely
to find the most value?
Just to put this dollar value comparison of gold and silver
world inventories into a different perspective, consider
this - a $1 move in the price of gold, changes the dollar
value of gold inventories by an amount greater than the
total value of the entire world silver inventory. One dollar
in gold equals a change in gold inventories of $1.6 billion
dollars, while total silver world inventories are worth just
$1.4 billion. Pretty amazing, eh?
Jim, please don't interpret this as a diatribe against gold.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I like gold here.
It's got value and explosive price potential. Even though I
look at things through my commodity analyst,
supply/demand eyes, I can see why people like gold. It is
no one else's liability, its anonymous and there isn't much
of it. But you can say the same things about silver. And
with silver, you can add that its total amount in existence is
shrinking. In fact, the dollar amount left amounts to
one-third of 1% of the dollar amount of gold in existence.
Think about that - the dollar value of world silver
inventories is only .3% (point three percent) of the dollar
value of gold inventories. Did you know that?
Facts like this are what you must convey to your clients.
Gold, along with silver, has been manipulated and
artificially depressed in price. Gold will rise in price. It
may, in time, double or triple in price. But it is very
unlikely, in my opinion, to see the ten and twenty fold run
that silver will experience. It's no easy task to get an item
valued at $425 billion to jump to $4 or $8 trillion. Getting
an item worth $1.4 billion to jump to $14 or $28 billion is
relatively, no big deal, especially one in a chronic
shortage. My biggest concern about gold's price movement
is that if gold starts to run, the world governments still
control sufficient quantities that can be released to contain
the price. In silver, no entity could contain a real surge in
physical demand.
If you can get enough of your customers to buy silver, this
may break the back of the silver manipulators. This silver
manipulation will end, when the market can't provide
enough real metal at the artificially depressed price. Get
enough clients to own silver and you may be instrumental
in ending the silver manipulation. However, when silver
explodes, most eyes will focus on gold. That's because
silver and gold go hand in hand. There are not many times
in history that their prices don't track one another. If
silver
explodes in price, people will look for reasons. Market
participants will ask how it was possible to explode from
a dead market to a vertical move. Those reasons will be
centered upon leasing and the short positions. People will
recognize that the silver market was manipulated – the
price explosion will be the very proof of the manipulation.
These conditions exist in gold as well. There will be a
very strong connection between the manipulation in silver
and gold, once it is obvious that silver was manipulated. I
firmly believe that silver will set the price of gold free. I
can't stress enough to you the latent power in silver. It will
explode like a steam boiler.
There are other things worth mentioning about silver
today. This year something is going to happen in silver that
hasn't happened in half a century. For the first time in over
50 years, the U.S. government will go from being a steady
net supplier of silver to the market, to a net consumer. This
is a potential block-buster. Using conservative numbers
the USG supplied to the market 3 billion ounces, or 60
million ounces a year for 50 years, via coinage and
inventory disposals. For the last ten years, the amount
supplied has dropped to 10 million ounces a year, as the
stockpile has approached zero, primarily because of the
silver Eagle and Commemorative coin programs. In order
to continue these popular coinage programs, the USG will
now have to buy silver to have these coins produced, to
the likely tune of 10 million ounces a year. From supplying
10 million ounces, to needing 10 million, is an immediate
20 million ounce net swing in total impact on the
supply/demand equation. It's like having a huge silver
mine shut down unexpectedly and permanently. The U.S.
government supplied, on average, 60 million ounces of
silver a year, for fifty years, at a rough average price of a
buck an ounce. They will supply 0 per year for the next 50
or 100 years, no matter how high the price goes. That's a
permanent change in the silver supply/demand equation.
Here's another consideration. The depletion of the U.S.
government's once fabled silver stockpile, renders
impossible any attempt by the government to cap prices
when demand hits the market. They still have 265 million
ounces of gold (so they claim) and they wouldn't hesitate
to use it, in an emergency – just like they tapped the
Strategic Petroleum Reserve for political and price
reasons. They cannot do this with silver.
Just one last thing in closing - sort of a confession. People
have asked me over the years, ‘Why doesn't someone big
come along, and just buy up the remaining silver in the
world?" This is a highly legitimate question which I
attempt to answer by saying, they don't want the headaches
that befell Nelson Bunker Hunt, who tried in 1980. Lately,
I could answer that Warren Buffett, the world's most
successful investor, did do it. (Although, I don't think Mr.
Buffett still holds real silver, but silver lease paper).
Well, the confession is this - I don't care to see a
mega-investor make a play in silver. Not only would such
a concentrated holding be subject to possible forced
liquidation by regulatory authorities (like happened to
Hunt and perhaps Buffett, too, I think), but seeing some fat
cat score big in the silver market (especially if he did it on
my research), wouldn't make me happy. I'd much rather
see a bunch of regular people bring home the silver bacon.
Not only would a bunch of investors be impossible to be
talked out of their position, seeing great numbers of people
make money in silver, would be an intense pleasure for
me.
Jim, there isn't much time. Never before in history has
there been such a confluence of bullish factors for a
commodity. There's been a deficit each year for 10 years.
The world's former largest holder of silver, the U.S.
government, is officially running out. There exists the
largest short position the world has ever seen in any
commodity. On top of this silver leasing has already
dumped two full years of future world mine production on
the market. It can't be sold again and it must be repaid.
World inventories of silver are at a 250-year low point
and that goes back to before the U.S. was even a nation.
All this, plus the lowest inflation adjusted price for silver
in 5,000 years tells me this is a powerful case. Get your
clients into silver now. If you accept my premise that only
5% of any particular asset class is available for purchase
by long term investors over the course of a year, that
means that maybe only 5% of the $1.4 billion worth of
silver inventory in the world, or a piddling $70 million,
can be bought by your clients without impacting the price.
Please get a move on - the hour's getting late. This is a
once-in-a-lifetime story.
Ted Butler
Galearis
(11/16/00; 12:47:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41609)
@ elevator guy
Religion in schools
At the risk of engendering the wrath for off topic behavior on the forum... I'll keep this brief and hope you do not feel it is my measure of the importance you hold for the subject.
To begin with I am an agnostic. My geology background would tend to infer this - as would the experiences and training that goes with this subject area.
I do not wish or mean to diminish the importance of religion for others in my position for it being part of "education". I want to be clear on this.
In my opinion ANY religion should be part of a healthy home life. In an increasingly cosmopolitan world, however, the rationale for the addition of religious "education" to education in a public school setting would seem to me to be a missplaced one. If in a school there is a uniformity of ANY religious beliefs that does not infringe on other institutionalized belief systems, then I cannot really disagree with it, if that is what parents want. However, should the time allotment be such that there is a displacement of curriculum in other areas (say geography) parents should probably be concerned.
Religion (and politics - unless political science) should be kept within the family relm.
It is as simple as that.
Best regards,
G.
TheStranger
(11/16/00; 12:27:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 41608)
From Today's Wall Street Journal
TheStranger's note:
Gold is near multi-decade lows. In the past year, demand for thirty-year government bonds has pushed the yield down 100 basis points. Meanwhile, prices for high yield corporates have fallen dramatically. Obviously, A LOT OF MONEY is betting on a low inflation, slowing economic scenario. This is a dangerous game, if you ask me. Yes, the U.S. economy is slowing. But, clearly, inflation is NOT. Anyone buying 5.75% thirty-year bonds, with inflation running close to 4% (and rising), will soon be regretting it.
Anyhow, I am pasting the excerpt below because virtually all of what it describes has been discussed here at the forum for many months. It can be very expensive waiting around for the rest of the world to get onto an investment story, but this article at least shows that somebiody is coming around.
**********
November 16, 2000
Federal Reserve Keeps Rates Steady,
But Still Sees Inflation as a Danger
By YOCHI J. DREAZEN and JACOB M. SCHLESINGER
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
WASHINGTON --
...For much of this year... the economy has given off some worrisome inflation signals. Wholesale prices have been well-behaved, but consumer prices have been marching steadily higher.
Core prices, which exclude the volatile food and energy sectors, have increased by 2.8% so far this year, far higher than the 1.9% inflation seen in 1999.
Danger of Weaker Dollar
Wage and benefit costs, meanwhile, appear to be moving higher amid one of the tightest labor markets in the nation's history.
With productivity advances moderating, businesses' ability to handle the added costs without raising their prices seems likely to diminish.
A weaker dollar also could push prices higher. Import prices have been steady or declining in recent years, giving American consumers access to lower-priced foreign goods and making it harder for domestic manufacturers to raise their prices...
Sierra Madre
(11/16/00; 12:12:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41607)
Thai gold...about the New Flash on Silver
I'm glad you picked up on it, Thai gold!
There is no url at present.
I am HOPEFUL that this event will prove extremely important.
I could say much more, but unfriendly ears are listening. Let them remain uninformed, skeptical, amused, unbelieveing. Why alert them?
Think about the item, Thai gold, you don't really need a url
You know what it signifies.
Play Beethoven's "Pastoral".
Sierra
OregonBeerForce
(11/16/00; 12:04:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41606)
auspec
Thanks for the welcome. I did't get back to my computer yesterday to respond. In the interest of not straying too far from the gold discussion I'll make this short. The OBF was founded by some of us who like drinking way too much and it sort of stuck and attracted more like individuals. We just started brewing our own and so far so good. I'll keep an eye out for the Ron Anejo, sounds very interesting. Perhaps another form of "black gold"?
I too wonder if small scale, local trades like the Venezualan oil deal will be seen as a challenge to the US's goal of "dollarization" of the entire region. Hugo Chavez seems to place the people of Venezuala ahead of the interests of Uncle Sam and may be trying to spread his influence and thinking to his neighbors. Considering he was one of the architects of the OPEC supply cuts, I wonder just how long he'll be around, if you know what I mean.
Cheers,
OBF
USAGOLD
(11/16/00; 11:38:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 41605)
Mystery Gold Buyer Jolts Market
http://finance.news.com.au/common/story_page/0%2C4057%2C1199956%255E462%2C00.html I ho
Adding to my report at the Commentary & Review this morning, I am beginning to think that what happened overnight -- the 10-15 ton gold purchase -- had to do with an Australian mining company buying back a hedge. When they sold gold forward they also bought the AUD as part of the hedge. In unwinding the hedge, they would sell AUD and buy gold. I would say there is a strong probability that this was the reason that this major transaction went down as it did. That view could change of course as information comes in, but that's what it looks like. If so, this would be significant in that it may hint at margin calls on the currency aspect of the hedge. It follows we could see more of this as the Aussie downdraft feeds on itself through margin call liquidations.
What we have is another aspect of the 'footsteps of giants' scenario -- it appears that gold is being bought behind the curtain at these absurdly low prices to pay back gold loans. Luckily, this report leaked and I caught it last night through our own news feed at the Daily Market Report page. Perhaps we can get Randy to take a break from setting up our Christmas jewelry page sometime today to explain some of the details -- his mathematical bent is much more applicable in something like this than my instincts.
Those who haven't seen my Commentary & Review might gain from a visit there today. I hold firm in my conviction that there will come a point where the physical will be very difficult to find to meet these hedges -- and that is the great fear of the bullion banks (and the mining companies) and dictates every move they make. When that day comes, gold will launch like nothing ever seen before. In the meantime, the best strategy is to accumulate the physical, sit back and watch the show. This cannot be played over the short term with options and futures for reasons covered at great depth here by a number of posters.
lamprey_65
(11/16/00; 11:17:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 41604)
Weakness today in the XAU
Phelps Dodge is down big today -- skewing the XAU once again.
Knallgold
(11/16/00; 11:04:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 41603)
Gold drugs?
I thought we have war on drugs and war on Gold and now this?
Knallgold
(11/16/00; 10:58:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41602)
Klondike report
Last week there was a report about the biggest Goldrush of all times, 100 years ago in the Klondike.This came on a european TV station called "Arte",a rather lefty but nonetheless independant (compared to other mainstream channels).
It is amazing,there are still some washing Gold there,more for the fun and freedom than for the profit which merely pays off the costs.The landscape looks funny with all this old "stone worms".The "main city" Dawson (sp?) is still there,many old Gold washers living there.
I kept thinking of our Yukon Gold miner here (hi YGM).
Environemental issues were also discussed but mostly from the miners side which critisized the greens heavily.
In an interview ,two of the miners said the magic words "Gold is money" and "Gold is in a way the world currency"
hey, its long ago I heard that in the media!
In the trailer of the report in all the thanks to xyz etc.I catched also (unfortionately not in all details) "Bundesamt des Innern",a part of the Swiss Governement.
dragonfly
(11/16/00; 10:52:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41601)
Back on track.
http://www.newswise.com/articles/1999/7/GOLD.TXM.html
The following is an excerpt from the link above. Maybe arthritis sufferers are riding the "Fifth Horse".
---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
A researcher at Texas A&M University who has examined the precious metal for decades has uncovered new possibilities for gold during his work on the luminescence properties of the substance.
Dr. John Fackler, Distinguished Professor of Chemistry who has conducted research on gold for 25 years, has observed that when placed in an excited state, gold particles can become phosphorescent, and the light produced under such circumstances could be beneficial in medical treatments and in industrial usage.
Fackler's work, recently published in The Chemist, a chemistry research journal, deals with gold properties and gold compounds. He says that although gold drugs
to treat rheumatoid arthritis have been around for years, scientists have never known how gold helps some people suffering from the disease. The light-emitting
properties of gold compounds could provide answers to that question.
By studying how gold emits luminescent light, Fackler says it may help to learn how the metal becomes an effective arthritis remedy.
"Most arthritis patients are missing certain cell enzymes," Fackler says. "Drugs using gold provide relief. We've learned gold may work by controlling the formation of
a substance called peroxy nitrate. The luminescence studies of gold have shown that both of the natural substances that produce the peroxy nitrate poison are
controlled by the gold.
Fackler, who has had more than 100 articles published relating to gold chemistry, adds that gold drugs are not for everyone. "They only help about 25 percent of arthritis patients," he confirms. "Usually, about 75 percent of rthritis patients can't take gold drugs because of an allergic reaction or some other medical condition.
"But for the 25 percent who do take the gold drugs, they are heaven sent. For these people, gold drugs are very effective in relieving pain.
"Why gold has been an effective treatment in this disease is really not known" he adds. "The mechanism of gold drugs is something that we still don't understand very well." Fackler said some countries, such as Australia, have experimented using gold drugs in cancer chemotherapy treatments, but such treatments are currently not available in the United States.
The industrial uses of gold luminescence, Fackler says, are potentially widespread. Besides photographic film where it has been used for many years, it could be used in video cameras that require very low lighting capacities, digital cameras, night vision devices, "just about anything that picks up light and needs to magnify it,"
he explains.
Regards,
dragonfly
ET
(11/16/00; 10:33:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41600)
Stranger, Journeyman
Hey Stranger - how ya been? You wrote;
"I move we try a little harder to stay on topic around here. Everybody has an opinion about everything, it
seems. Which is great. But the forum can be a valuable source of information about the financial markets
when it is used properly."
Can I assume that it is your opinion that the "financial markets" are what are of importance? <g>
Actually partner, I've found the discussion since this US election to be one of the most interesting here in quite awhile. We seem to be getting close to what actually drives society and its values. I would humbly suggest that somewhere along the line we may even find the value of gold in society. Your statement above seems to regard financial markets as the topic of discussion here as gold might be put in terms of those markets. I'll have to admit that if we are only going to consider the price of gold as being on topic, I don't think it will lend itself to much of a discussion. Of course, that's just my opinion, and as you correctly note, everyone seems to be full of these things regardless of merit.
I think we as a society have lost track of standards, gold not being the least and likely the most important of all. It seems it is becoming apparent to some the problems that occur when society is not firmly anchored in its values. We have seen on this forum many attempt to voice their opinion as to why things no longer seem right with the world, this election just being the latest case in point. All in all, I think this is the value of this forum. We all approach life from a different point of view, eh?
Journeyman - will attempt to get back to you concerning Mises after awhile. I have to go earn some gold. <g>
TheStranger
(11/16/00; 08:53:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41599)
Gold Rallying
It is great to see gold rallying today. I'm reminded of the old adage, "never sell a dull market short".
TheStranger
(11/16/00; 08:47:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41598)
Idea
I move we try a little harder to stay on topic around here. Everybody has an opinion about everything, it seems. Which is great. But the forum can be an valuable source of information about the financial markets when it is used properly.
Yes, I know, I am guilty, too. I just think the extraneous material has started to take over lately, and I don't want to see that happen. I hope everyone will forgive me for saying so.
Thanks.
Journeyman
(11/16/00; 08:24:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41597)
Inside info @Pandagold
Hi Pandagold!
Been following your posts. You seem to have perspective. Is this just because you're wise, or do you have a foot in the door with TPTB?
I mean that loosely, since I agree with you there is an "AGENDA FOR THE WORLD" and "The people who are responsible for directing it, I am sure, from their writings (you will have to search for these) believe it is their destiny to bring it in fruition for the good, in general, of mankind, and, in particular, for themselves, and kin."
And can you direct me to some of "their writings?"
This present period in history has similarities to the historical period when trade moved into the "mercantilist" phase from the previous period when it was dominated by the local trading villages, which spent centuries smashing dyeing vats and stealing looms to keep the trade from escaping into the countryside.
I fear it will come to a "bad" end this time, as in a certain sense it did then, because of the way it is being similarly distorted. The mercantilist phase was morphed into just a larger market-place jurisdiction in order for governments to be able to collect more taxes --- and protect their clandestine tax collector/businesses, especially their favorite ones. This concentrated that power you accurately identified as more powerful than armies, providing funding for those wars that you so eloquently dissed in a previous post. That was you wasn't it -- sometimes I have a problem keeping track.
There are other similarities to the evolution from village-dominated trading to market-nation-state dominated trade. There are also many dissimilarities as well of course.
Regards,
Journeyman
wolavka
(11/16/00; 08:14:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41596)
the short pigs
have built resistance in dec gold at 270 then 272.50 then 276.
elevator guy
(11/16/00; 07:43:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 41595)
@Christopher
Very poetic and encouraging. Thank you.
Lets consider the reason that this site is here.
It is not primarily a sounding board for Christians to express their faith, but it is a place of learning about gold, primarily. And by offering this service, it may help MK to survive. So lets be all things to all people, and be mindful of the place we are in.
I wish I had some great education, or financial insight, such as ORO, and thereby to add to the benefits of this forum, but alas, I am but a lowly elevator man, and only come to drink in the knowledge of others.
elevator guy
(11/16/00; 07:36:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41594)
@JavaMan, and ORO, who never reads me. (smile)
All this political stuff going on has gotten me a little off-topic, so I beg the forgiveness and indulgence of the host and guests, for voicing opinions that could be best said and received on a different forum. (but what fun is it to preach to the converted?)
I would have to agree that there is no absolutely eternal and correct form of earthly government. Thats exactly what I beleive. (Administered by men, that is)
If absolute power and decision making authority is the most effective and efficient gornverning method, then it would be absolutely corrupted by the person administering it. Unless that person was someone special, but I digress.
JavaMan, you honor me, which humbles me.
Wishing everyone the best, and please get the real gold, refined in the fire.
Christopher
(11/16/00; 07:34:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 41593)
Elevator Guy #41576
We have forgotten the face of our Father.
We have forgotten that we are the created, not the Creator.
It comforts me so, when things seem chaos all around, when the world seems to wobble as if it has finally reached the tipping stage. When all is madness, when all seems impenetrable darkness, it is good to remember that those of us who were called are strangers here. Our citizenship lies not in this country or that, not even in this world. But in another land where the light shines and darkness does not exist. Where the Christ is our Lord and King, and where gold, so precious to us in this world, meanly cobbles the streets and alleyways.
This too shall pass. Let us remind ourselves, of the eternal truth.
In the beginning was the Word...John 1:1
Orville Goldenbacher
(11/16/00; 07:11:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41592)
wolavka
you are correct, Sir....May we all have a nice day ;)
It's ALIVE!!!!
btw, i really enjoy your posts!!!
Pandagold
(11/16/2000; 6:33:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 41591)
Beesting - your answers, and some.....
Let me answer the simpler ones first:
Scottish Pound: Some of the main banks in Scotland have issued their own notes for many, many, years, so you get more than one design. They have always been legal tender along with the British pound note. Very few stray south of the border, mainly because there are so few that once you get away from Scotland, people, shop assistants, etc., are unfamiliar with them, and also could not give them back to others in change, they would have to be returned to the bank.
These little differences, though, help to make life more interesting, and colourful. In certain parts of Wales, schools still teach the Welsh language, people speak it, and it is used in place name markers along side the English.
You ask will the Scottish pound ever differ in value from the British pound. There are probably a few ‘odd-ball’ nationalists around who would like to think so. They still live in ‘cookie-tin’ land. (Romantic labels on Scottish shortbread (a sort of cookie) tins, complete with heather, kilts and claymores).
But reality is that, sooner, or later, there will be only one currency in all Europe – the Euro. Yes, goodbye German Mark, French Franc and, eventually the British Pound. In 2002 the EU will start to use Euro currency (at the present the Euro has no actual currency, as such – nothing you can jingle, or rustle, in your pocket).
Before I go any further, it is best that I mention here something that is VERY, I repeat, VERY important. It is because of the lack of knowledge, or acceptance, of this that people get confused about what is happening in the world. Most people are looking at the individual pieces of a giant jig-saw puzzle, instead of seeing the big picture. THERE IS AN AGENDA FOR THE WORLD. This agenda is not new, it may get modified slightly according to the way a wind is blowing, but in essence it holds firm.
I cannot argue as to whether this agenda, when it is fulfilled, will be a positive one or a negative one. The people who are responsible for directing it, I am sure, from their writings (you will have to search for these) believe it is their destiny to bring it in fruition for the good, in general, of mankind, and, in particular, for themselves, and kin.
Only when you understand this, does all what is happening, and has been happening, make sense. When you ‘see’ the big picture, you can almost tell what is going to happen next, before it happens.
The secret of the martial arts is that by turning your opponents strength of movement against him, you don't have to be physically stronger than he, just more skilful in foreseeing his next move, and using it against him. The same principle enables the few to conquer, and control the world.
There is a golden rule that has held fast throughout the centuries, and unless the son of God comes back down to earth, and this time ‘wins’, it will last into future centuries: - He who has the gold (or most gold) makes the rules. Emblazon that on your mind.
A large, well disciplined, and trained army can win a battle, but it is money power that wins wars. The Roman army in its day was invincible, until Rome ran out of money.
The German Army in 1939 was the best equipped, best trained, and the best disciplined in the world. It weakened only when the coffers started to run dry, and fresh, almost unlimited, amounts of money, was thrown against it. Money buys information, raw materials, and develops technology.
I hope you have managed to take in what I have been trying to say here. If one's mind cannot accept this, then it is difficult to understand what is going on. Almost everything is inter-related, and that is what makes it difficult to explain truthfully, and clearly, things in isolation. But I can understand, if anyone doesn't accept these explanations, it is a lot to take on board, when our minds have been programmed to see everything in small pieces.
Back to the rest of your questions. Certain goods have been rising in price in Britain, and world wide, for some time now. However, basic essentials, like food have remained fairly static. However, no great rises like 15% since the pound started to weaken (only slightly).
It is my belief that we are in a transition period of allowing the dollar to go into R&R while keeping economic power in the hands of Western ‘democracies’. Any sudden movement from dollar to Euro would unleash chaos in the fragile framework of the financial system that has built over the last decades of wild excesses – derivatives, debt and dollar money supply.
Money can move, today almost at the speed of light. One of the reasons gold is being held down (there are always other reasons), is to ensure there is no escape for the money flow that would endanger the Euro, and weaken the dollar until the transition has a firm hold.
You must understand that within this agenda, very few countries act alone. The UK is controlled more or less by the same ‘system’ (note I am careful with my choice of words) that controls the US. So the selling of the gold by the Bank of England was not a capricious act. It was well timed and thought out, and is part of an overall strategy.
The pound is being prepared to join in the monetary union of the EU ( take no notice of the rhetoric from politicians, they are as meaningful as the oohs, and aahs at a wrestling match). The pound WILL decline, it is meant to. The dollar will also decline, in the near future.
If you want a little prophecy for the future it is this: there will be three main currency blocks – Dollar, Euro, and a Yuan (Asian block dominated by China). The one thing that could upset this is that Western (mainly US organised) interference in Chinese internal affairs causes civil unrest to a point where, from the ensuing chaos, China will be broken up into, probably three segments (a la Russia). If this went wrong (and it probably would) it could unleash tremendous devastation in the Pacific Rim, and this time, the USA would be on the receiving end of the firework display. It would be short, sharp, and bloody.
China, in spite of US media coverage at times, is NOT a belligerent nation, she doesn't go around poking her nose into other people's affairs. Before anyone brings up Tibet, that is a special case, and you need to see and understand both sides of the coin before argument. It is so easy to be led by Hollywood (they are experts at it) into seeing some anti-Chinese, way-out. romantic, emotional, idealistic, but untruthful, version of events.
If China appears paranoid at times, this is not without just cause. She is well aware of the CIA dirty tricks brigade, as so many other countries have learned to their cost. In all fairness to the CIA, it is only a tool, and others act with it in unison – MI5, Mossad, etc. They are all ‘at it’. It is an ongoing part of ensuring the success of the agenda.
As I have said, it will either turn out to be a very good thing, or a very bad one, only time will tell. We get no clues from nature, except that there is some semblance of order, and, it seems, the fittest survive by adapting and having a good advanced warning system.
You may feel I have strayed from the path, or rambled on too much, but believe me,. I have left much more unsaid, than said; yet there is relevance.
It doesn't really matter whether you accept every detail. If I have helped you to step back from the canvas and see the whole picture from a distance, and not focus too much on the small parts of the whole, then my time in setting this out has not been wasted.
JavaMan
(11/16/2000; 6:25:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41590)
All...
For better or worse, this thread certainly has generated some interest! Unfortunately, I have become painfully aware that I don't have the time to respond to so many good thoughts with the thoughtfulness and thoroughness they deserve and must excuse myself from the thread.
Journeyman, you have championed your position well and I honestly don't know how you find the time! I didn't really consider myself your "opponent", just one with an different view.
Bonedaddy, your msg#: 41574...great post, Sir.
ET, beesting, dragonfly, your thoughts and participation are appreciated.
ORO: My personal religious convictions compel me to prefer a man who share's my faith in God in any endeavor over one who doesn't.
elevator guy, your msg#: 41576 - A beautiful post! If I may..."the "evolution" of our society continues its downward spiral, and education will not be our substitute for salvation."...
"it behooves all rational individuals to make themselves aware of truth which has eternal consequences, to take action, and there is no other subject of so grave and immediate importance, so much so, that all other pursuits fade away in contrast to the all-encompassing eternal reality of God. No other subject has such vital importance."
In other places, even today, people are "removed" for such bold public statements. Thanks.
I submit that elevator guy's msg#: 41576 and Bonedaddy's msg#: 41574 are HOF material.
Thanks all...
wolavka
(11/16/2000; 6:22:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 41589)
face it
It all happens from above. Have a nice day!!!!!!!!!
dragonfly
(11/16/2000; 6:14:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41588)
Mr. Gresham, Journeyman, ORO, JavaMan
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC06/Mollner.htm
See if you like this one on the Mondragon cooperatives.
Thanks for your responses.
Regards,
dragonfly
Black Blade
(11/16/2000; 5:11:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41587)
Opinions are like ....., everybody has one.
Source: Bridge News
NYMEX Oil Review: Crude jumps on tight heating fuel supply
New York--Nov. 15--Crude oil futures jumped Wednesday following data showing supplies of heating oil are extremely tight heading into the winter heating season. Dec crude oil ended up 73 cents at $35.60 per barrel, while expiring Dec Brent on London's IPE rose $1.24 to $33.93, both 1-month highs.
Black Blade: DITTO!
US' Richardson says $30 still too high for oil prices
London--Nov. 15--1135 ET--U.S. Energy Secretary Bill Richardson said Wednesday that U.S. $30 per barrel is still too high a price for oil but OPEC's four production hikes so far this year may not be enough to bring prices below this level.
Black Blade: What a different tune he is whistling lately. Billy just doesn't get it! It is mostly refinery and distribution capacity restraints. Couple that with refiners who don't want large inventories of oil, and the only result is higher POO.
IEA chief: OPEC price mechanism no substitute for free market
Paris--Nov. 15--0953 ET--The price-band mechanism used by Organization for Petroleum Exporting Countries to help modify the price of oil is "no substitute" for a free market, Robert Priddle, chief of the Paris-based International Energy Agency, said Wednesday. "We don't have a lot of faith in a price mechanism," he said. "We'd like to see a much freer market on the production side for oil without a cartel." TotalFinaElf chief says no physical shortage of oil in market
Black Blade: Not an option as OPEC is here to stay. Remember that it was the French who were most opposed to independent Arab states. It was during the Paris meetings after WWI that former Brittish Liaison officer Thomas Edward Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia) along with Arab King Feisel sought independence for a Greater Syrian state as reward for helping the Allies take on the Ottoman Turks during the war. The French and to some extent the Brits were opposed. During a break in the marathon discussions, he watched as two French maintenance men were oiling a chandelier in the hotel lobby - then it hit him - "It's all about oil!." At least that's the story.
London--Nov. 15--0515 ET--There is currently no physical shortage of crude oil in world markets, TotalFinaElf chief executive Thierry Desmarest said Wednesday. Current high oil prices have more to do with psychology than genuine market fundamentals, Desmarest told the annual Oil and Money conference in London, adding that he expected to see a fall in oil prices after at the end of the northern hemisphere winter.
Black Blade: He should tell that to Billy Richardson. I don't expect to see prices fall all that much. The producers really do like the new profit picture and are likely to squeeze a few more dollars.
Black Blade
(11/16/2000; 4:37:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 41586)
Build a fire, get a glass of brandy, and bundle up.
Petroleum Prices set to go even higher!
Gas outlook
The US Energy Information Administration remains concerned about winter gas supplies and prices, but US producers are optimistic. EIA recently reported that increased drilling has begun to boost supply. The government agency revised its estimates for 2001 production growth to about 350 bcf, up from 240 bcf in previous outlooks. But it says this winter's gas prices will still be about 90% higher than last winter. EIA said the winter still is expected to be colder than the last two. Heating degree-days (HDD) are projected to be 10% above last winter's HDD, which were well below normal.
Meanwhile, near-term gas prices have fallen from $5/Mcf in the first 3 weeks of October to about $4/Mcf. EIA said it expects spot and futures prices to remain "quite sensitive" to indicators of demand or supply changes, such as weather or storage. It said although high oil prices have contributed to the current strength in gas prices, the predominant reason for these sustained high gas prices was, and still is to some extent, perceptions about the supply situation going into the winter.
Storage
Storage injections have increased due to warm weather in the last half of October. The downward tumble in spot prices over the last few weeks may be evidence of this, EIA said. Underground working gas storage levels were about 8-9% below year-ago levels. Assuming normal weather for the remainder of the heating season, EIA says wellhead prices this winter should probably stay above $4/Mcf levels. But November may prove to be the key because it is generally the last month available in the year for injections into storage. Given the low state of natural gas inventories, a cold month would curtail net injections and could send spot prices over $5/Mcf again, EIA said.
With a colder winter in the works, the agency predicts gas demand will be 5.1% higher than last winter. It estimates
net imports of gas will rise about 12% in 2001.
Producers view
Skip Horvath, Natural Gas Supply Association president, recently told a meeting of the National Association of
Regulatory Commissioners that "producers are doing everything we can to increase our production and bring more natural gas to market." Horvath said, "We are confident that natural gas supply will meet the winter market demand, and that the pipelines and distributors will get the gas to customers. We have a record number of rigs drilling new natural gas wells, and today we have more gas in storage than we needed during the cold winter of 1995-1996. Although supplies are tight, the market is working."
Horvath said gas production is highly competitive, since there are more than 8,000 producers and the largest 10 companies only represent 33% of all production. He said prices are determined in a free marketplace, and history has shown that over the long term, customers benefit from a competitive gas market. He also said since Federal Energy Regulatory Commission Order 380 was implemented in 1984, gas industry competition has resulted in direct savings to the consumer of $600 billion.
Horvath said, "Due to the complexity of permitting and drilling new wells, patience is needed while the production sector responds to these price signals, a process which can take anywhere from 3 to 18 months. Government intervention in the form of price caps will only harm consumers by creating the very gas shortage we all seek to avoid."
Black Blade: This report is a bit out of date as prices have advanced to over $6.00 Mbtu. Mr. Horvath does not seem to know that the draw-down in NG supplies has continued throughout the summer months as well due to increased energy needs. He bases his assumptions about adequate NG supplies on old data and the "Old Economy." The so-called "New Economy" is very energy intensive. The nation has recently had a cold snap and now petroleum prices are rising as OPEC says enough is enough. Meanwhile NG prices are rising in sympathy to other petroleum markets. $8.00 Mbtu NG is very likely before year-end and possibly much higher. Also NG drillers are looking high and low for old drill rigs, drill crews, etc. Virtually all new energy supply will come from NG-fired power generating plants. This could portend shades of 1973 and stagflation all over again. Interesting times lie ahead.
SteveH
(11/16/2000; 4:14:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41585)
CNBC and CNN election pundits
What a bunch of dorks!
Anybody in their right mind figured out that Harris was going to do what she did and only one CNN report got it right before the fact. The rest of them had no clue -- all lost in their own rhetoric and party lines. Now all the commentators say she has forced it into the courts. No...she did her job, did what she was supposed to do, used non-arbitrary and non-capricious discretion and made her decision. This will be very hard for the Dems to overturn. Only by a showing of extreme bias will they be able to do it, imo and she didn't show that.
The Gore camp argument of let all the votes be counted is getting old. Has anybody figured out what the statistical variance is for accuracy by machine v hand of a card meant to be read by machines and not by humans? I can't help but think that the more the vote is counted, let's say 10 times, that 6 times it would come out for Bush and 4 times for Gore, except each run causes more vote-cards to be damaged thus changing the accuracy of the count on subsequent counts.
ThaiGold
(11/16/2000; 2:31:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 41584)
GoreSpin & ...
...No Judge Can Be Considered to be Impartial in Politics...
The latest Gore tactic is claiming that machine counted punch
card ballots are wholly inaccurate, and therefore only manual
recounts are now acceptable.
Hogwash. If that's the case, then every punch card ballot, in
every precinct, in every county, in every state, should be also
manually recounted.
Next, we are told that an elected public official (the Florida
Secretary of State) cannot be trusted to be impartial, in doing
her job according to existing crystal-clear state statutes. So
Gore insists that only a Judge can rectify such partiality.
Hogwash again. There is no such thing as a publicly elected
or politically appointed Judge that wouldn't in some way be
partial to his political flavor in making a political decision.
GoreSpin... Rhymes with ........, and I'm fed up with it all.
ThaiGold
ThaiGold
(11/16/2000; 1:35:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41583)
Need link to that Silver news item...
Attn: Sierra Madre / Mexico Silver Coins / Legal Tender
Sierra Madre (11/15/00; 23:43:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41575)
News Flash!
In an unprecedented move, the Bank of Mexico - the Mexican Central Bank - has announced that one troy ounce .999 silver coins produced by the Mexican Mint, founded 1535, are on sale at $60 pesos a piece(about $6.35 U.S.)tax free, through some 2,500 bank branches of the banking system, in Mexico. The announcement was made via national Mexican T.V. chain T.V. Azteca, in a beautifully produced promotional "spot" of 60 secs. duration. The coins are legal tender in Mexico and have no face value.
Comment: I believe the coins will be snapped up in a matter of days, exhausting the stock.
Exsultate, jubilate!
Sierra
======================
An amazing news item. Do you have a url link to that.?.
Thanks, if you can post it.
Journeyman
(11/16/2000; 1:32:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 41582)
Thanx for the questions @justamereBear (11/16/2000; 1:17:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41580)
Hi justamere!
Thanx for the questions. I think I have answers -- I'm working on an attempt to unify a lot of stuff in this area I've been mulling over for a long time. May take a day or two, but this is one thing I WILL get to!
Regards and good night!!
Journeyman
P.S. And THIS time, I really mean it!
Journeyman
(11/16/2000; 1:22:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 41581)
Nice work! @ORO (11/16/2000; 1:03:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41579)
Hi ORO!
In light of the last paragraph of your above post, to wit:
"The most substantial point is that the last type of person one would want in government is one so
imbued with self-righteousness and the conviction that his position is right in the most absolute way,
and should therefore be imposed over all. While the normal government official can be weighed upon
by bribe or threat to act in the actual long term interests of the people (free markets), the righteous
might not be swayed by either, nor by argument. Thus the righteous government official is incapable
of bending his view of "right" to correspond with the reality of the chosen and preferred interactions
of the governed."
You might find this little excerpt from "Hierarchy in the Forest" tantalizing:
"Sometimes the ethnographer merely sums up a pattern of behavior or cites a single instance as an example. Truly rich descriptions like those of Lee are rare; in most instances the details are sparse--as when it is simply reported that Netsilik Eskimos once executed a shaman who began to dominate them (Balikci 1970)" -Christopher Boehm, Hierarchy in the Forest, pg. 47
Regards and good night!!
Journeyman
justamereBear
(11/16/2000; 1:17:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41580)
tedW 41558 Jouneyman
Tedw
It is unclear exactly what you are speaking of. You can buy or sell the dollar against almost any currency (eg the pound) However I would think you are speaking of the US dollar index, which is a supposedly trade weighted basket of 22 currencies. It is supposed to mimic the trade flows around the US dollar. In my opinion I does not. If it did, the Canadian dollar would be much more prominant than it is, (because Canada is the US's largest trading partner, both in volume of goods, and value of those goods and services, despite the common wisdom to the contrary) and secondly it does not often change, but as you can guess, the recent rapid change in oil prices have altered the direction and amount of US dollars and where they flow.
Sir Journeyman
I regard you as one of the better posters here, not only because of your courtesy, reasoned and concise arguements, but also that, by and large, I agree with your thinking and logic.
I would be interested in your reaction to the thought that in most tribal level societies, ownership of nearly everything belongs to everyone. While it is true that the hunter who brings in a meal gets the first and best cut, and where there is also a pecking order for the balance, everyone gets a share. Most questions are settled on an immediate needs basis, at least in part. That is why Manhatten went for a quantity of beads, the indians did not understand property ownership. They used the land when they felt they had a need for it. Anyone else with a need was expected to use it if they in turn had a need.
In a different vein, there are some sociological statistical analysis' that mathematically prove that a true democracy does not work in groups exceeding 50 people. The basis is that there are to many permutations and combinations of relationships possible. To have a democracy, one must be able to vote intelligently about an issue, such as who shall be a leader. If I, "A" am relating to you, "B", then there is only your relation to me, and my relation to you. We can guage fairly well what the others reaction to any given situation will be. If we introduce "C" into the equation, then the relations go up geometrically. There is an A to B (&B to A) relationship, and an A to C (&C to A) relationship, and a B to C (& C to B) relationship. If we get "D" introduced then the relationships again go up geometrically.
At these levels it is still possible to predict with some accuracy how the group, and each individual in it, will react to a given stimulii, and therefore, when you are voting on a leader, the vote can be informed. Around 50 people, the possible relationships become to complex to make a reasonable prediction as to what the group, or individuals within it will do. In other words, who can you trust about what. Everyone in the group Understands that D is a dunderhead, and weighs his vote/opinion accordingly.
That of course brings up the question, does the local village idiot deserve a vote weight equal to the most informed, and if not, how should it be weighted?
While, on balance I agree, I see these points as weaknesses in you arguements of the past few days, and would be interested in your comments as to the ramifications of these thoughts on your arguements.
j'Bear
ORO
(11/16/2000; 1:03:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41579)
JavaMan, dragonfly, Journeyman, ET - righteous government
Let me start with the idea of "righteous government". I will state outright that there is no such thing, nor is such a creature possible. If there has been some sort of striving for a "righteous" politics, then there was depravity and moral collapse built into the goal itself.
As ET has pointed out in his quote of Mises, people aggregate into societies because of the benefits of the association. Particularly those benefits of productivity resulting from the division of labor and the benefits of cooperation, which allow achievements not possible for the individual alone.
Any virtuous action would be one pursued by an individual's choice, particularly when one thinks of the martyrs of the many religions who gave up their lives in agony in order to preserve their internal virtue. Though many a cleric would contest this with the claim of "virtue is as virtue does", and claim that he should be given the authority to "make" one virtuous despite one's wishes, i.e. by violence, this does not detract from the necessity of un-coerced individual choice being the precursor to virtuous action.
Thus a government – being the possessor of overwhelming force of violence in a geographical area- can not "make" the governed virtuous, even though it demands by pain of death so many virtuous actions performed and so many sins avoided. By so doing, the government displaces the internal motive of virtue in the governed with an external motive of the threat of violence which induces the fear that would motivate people into avoiding sin and pursuing virtue.
If "righteous government" means a government composed of "righteous" people, then one must define by which criteria these people would be chosen; by which concepts of "good and evil" (introduced into theology by the Jews and Zoroastrians in the centuries prior to the Hellenistic conquests of Alexander) would they be judged "righteous" and by whom. Would the religions that do not directly associate morality with religion be excluded; meaning that they would not choose government and not be chosen into it? What about atheists and agnostics? What about the polyreligious? What about the worshipers of the anti-deity, such as Satan cults?
I would come one step further into this discrediting of the idea of a "righteous government" by saying that the historical introduction of morality into religion was recent in terms of our development, and rather than strengthen morality with religious support, it was the other way round. Primitive religion, having little to offer the vanquished peoples of Judea and the nomads and primitive farmers of Persia before Babylon (the trade between the large and rich Babylon and Egypt of the Mediterranean and China and India to the East passed through Persia and brought it to prominence) turned to take over the social concepts of good and evil. They did so because the ancient forms of religion were explanations of the forces of nature by analogy to human psychology. Thus gods were personifications of forces of nature or of events (sun, moon, tide, death, a lucky streak, motherhood, war, or wisdom) and would have human-like forms and would respond to the objects of human desires. They would take sacrifice of food, of young maidens, and money. It was when trade through Judea and through Persia brought the people in contact with new technology, with facts of science (what little there was of it), and with a plethora of other deities that religion needed a new source of justifications – thus the takeover of morality from the realm of naturally occurring social conventions and lessons of the "school of hard knocks".
The most substantial point is that the last type of person one would want in government is one so imbued with self-righteousness and the conviction that his position is right in the most absolute way, and should therefore be imposed over all. While the normal government official can be weighed upon by bribe or threat to act in the actual long term interests of the people (free markets), the righteous might not be swayed by either, nor by argument. Thus the righteous government official is incapable of bending his view of "right" to correspond with the reality of the chosen and preferred interactions of the governed.
Journeyman
(11/16/2000; 0:47:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41578)
Et tu, ET? @ET msg#: 41569, Elwood, dragonfly, beesting, ALL
Hi ET!
Good stuff from Mises -- it's not often I disagree with him, and I'm not sure I do entirely in this case either. But do you have a context for him saying an anarchist society would be victim to any individual?
Mises may be, anthropologically, a little out of date, but in the proper context, he may be correct. F.A.Hayek, particularly in "The Fatal Conceit: the Errors of Socialism" may be more current -- and gave me THE clue.
By the way, trade and wide-spread division of labor is a relative new-commer on the scene -- Aristotle (not ours -- by the way, where IS he?) knew only of isolated trade in his day, the bulk being done sporadically from farm to farm etc. only.
Amongst our small-group ancestors, (from at least 60,000 years ago to about 10,000 years ago) intergroup trade was rare and mostly ceremonial in nature. Division of labor was purely a local, social, and very informal affair -- who digs the potatoes today? OK, I'll do it. This is what leads me to suggest that in the case of _this_ Mises quote, he may be "anthropologically a little out of date."
Karl Polanyi in "The Great Transformation" is a good source for this kind of info.
More later -- this really has me burning the way-after-midnight oil!!
Regards,
Journeyman
P.S. dragonfly, thanks for the Mondragon link. Quite interesting!
P.P.S. JavaMan, that link to the burningman site is in contraditciton, seemingly, to your sort-of anti-anarchist position, demonstrating as that annual gathering has for years that apparently large numbers of essentially "unsupervised" humans can congregate and do potentially dangerous things without breaking into violent and murderous acts???
P.P.P.S. What's this all have to do with gold? Well it's my thesis that modern history is a war of hierarchical tendancies vs. egalitarian tendancies, and ever since the human population grew enough for groups large enough to support what are essentially hierarchical parasitic leaders, the egalitarian genes have been hijacked to support the hierarchist genes (a la Richard Dawkins and "The Selfish Gene"). One of the most effective ways this hijacking has been done is to replace gold with fiat currency, enabling stealing to the tune of (productivity increase + inflation rate)* money supply. And this amount is stolen EVERY year!
elevator guy
(11/16/2000; 0:32:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41577)
@Pandagold
Thanks for your post.
I wasn't fully aware of the role of the monarchy in your country. Maybe I was sick that day in school(!)
I could have sworn, that by the tone of your post, that there was a classic perspective of those ruled by a monarchy, where the affairs of that renegade colony are viewed with disdain, given the superiority of the noble fatherland.
PLEASE dont' take me seriously now! I am smiling and laughing with you here! I understand you, you understand me, so lets talk about something else.
Its fun to listen to the jabs of wit that are exchanged in your House of Lords. (Did I get that name right?) Very often more things are said with real punch, right on target, than are said on the floor of our Congress.
Sigh...I wish Bob Dornan was back in there, on the floor, givin' em hell..
At least I could feel like it all had some relevance, when B-1 Bob was gritin' his teeth. That guy pulled no punches.
elevator guy
(11/16/2000; 0:20:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 41576)
@Galearis
Thats a great background you have, being interested in so many different subjects. You are an intellectual, and I am jealous.
About religion not being part of a good education, I have to differ.
Consider my view, just for a second or two. Lets say that there is a real Creator God, and Jesus is His Son, and died on the cross for your, and my, sins. You may not beleive that yet, but just humor me a bit.
Now if this is the reality, and I am convinced that it is, then it behooves all rational individuals to make themselves aware of truth which has eternal consequences, to take action, and there is no other subject of so grave and immediate imortance, so much so, that all other pursuits fade away in contrast to the all-encompassing eternal reality of God. No other subject has such vital importance.
To not know this, is the result of poor education, where intellectually arrogant humans grope around in blindness, looking for the purpose and meaning in life.
Have you walked with me this far? Education about your Creator is the singular most important subject in any ciriculum, IMVHO. Ok, now I'm done sharing my view of the need for "religious" education in our schools.
It certainly might at least stem the tide of murders, illiteracy, and abandonment that our public schools are so good at fostering.
Case in point is Colorado, where the "trenchcoat mafiosa" shot anyone who professed beleif in God. Thats what we are raising now, intolerant psycopaths. But there was courage in that young girls heart, as she admitted her faith in Jesus, before she was shot point blank. God give me that kind of courage, to be bold about what I beleive. So maybe we as a nation have a little more going for us than I let on.
A little background on me, I was born the son of an aetheist father, and a Catholic mother, but found my reality in Jesus. My mother was a school teacher, and is well versed in so-called "higher critiscism" of Scripture. It is from this liberal environment that I was called by the Spirit to be born-again. And which experience was really a surprise to me, because I didn't know such an experience could be had, (not coming from any Bible beleiving mindset) What a great change that I went through!
But I tire of talking about me... You talk about me for a while... (smile)
It is very evident that our society is crumbling, dumbing down, and generally separating into strata of economics and intellect. One example that really irks me is common signs, maybe in a fast-food restaurant, where someone has scribbled several little signs, and taped them over the ATM card reader terminals -
"Sory, the ATMs is out of order"
Why try to fight this? This is the wave of the future, and you cant stop it. We will end up with the have-nots still huddled together, yearning to breathe free in the one corner, and meanwhile, upstairs, with a view of the sinset on the water, will be the "haves", sitting at the best tables, sipping their drinks and sharing funny stories.
In Southern California, the illegals are ALLOWED, I repeat, ALLOWED, by TPTB, to run across the border, and take their place turning the crank of our industrialized society. Its economics, pure and simple. Closing the border is only talk, and ZERO, or at most, VERY LITTLE resources will be spent towards that goal.
Intellectuals such as you are just the last conscious occupants of a once bustling land, but the "evolution" of our society continues its downward spiral, and education will not be our substitute for salvation. There will be no rennaisance of America. Only the strong will survive, those who use their minds, to avoid eeking out an existence with the reat of the mongrels, scavenging the heaps of refuse left at the close of our era.
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