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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 10/16/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

beesting (10/16/00; 22:26:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 39189)
Some follow up on the Gold mining scheme.
Thanks again Sir auspec for your input, and thank you too Sir Gandalf # 39171, glad you had a good laugh, laughter is the best medicine, they say.

Now, to go back to my original post on the Gold mine, lets ask ourselves this simple question:
Why do investors invest?
My answer would be to build wealth, or at the very least preserve wealth.I believe the Gold mine operation I described today would be the only investment, that I know of that would true-ly be as good as Gold!!! Why? Because it's shareholder paper backed by "REAL" Gold! Sir auspec, I'm true-ly grateful for your feedback because it shows the biggest concern to share holders would be the safe keeping of Gold assets and credibility of whoever ran the operation is of the utmost importance.
I wasn't sure if the whole plan was legal.
What is happening to paper wealth worldwide as I write this?
Again my answer; Paper wealth is being eroded by the minute worldwide,mainly because it represents someones debt. My proposed Gold mining operation HAD NO DEBT! The share holders would be what shareholders were originally intended to be,"partial OWNERS of the company." A clause could be entered on each and every shareholder certificate,"REDEEMABLE IN GOLD!!! If the price of Gold rose to certain levels, or if the shareholders voted for it dividends(anybody remember what that used to be?)could be paid in Gold or paper.
I still think it's a good idea, and I'm going to talk to the mine owner,Pete about it.
Thanks for Reading.....beesting.

Hugh Akston (10/16/00; 22:09:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 39188)
The different personality types, according to MBTI
http://www.keirsey.com/cgi-bin/keirsey/newkts.cgi
I recommend anyone interested in personality types go to this web site and take the test for yourself. You may be amazed at how accurate it is. They also have explanations of all the various types.

It's interesting to note that all of Rand's heroes were NT's and most of her villains were Fs of one sort or another. Personally, I've never met an F whose life wasn't seriously messed up in some way. That's understandable, because they don't use rationality to make decisions; they use their feelings as tools of cognition.

Of course, feelings are important. They should be taken into account in deciding what the right course of action is. But the final decision has to be made rationally, at least if you want the best possible results.

megatron (10/16/00; 22:03:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 39187)
Midas Milligan
Unless of course your smart enough to be trading of-shorr.

megatron (10/16/00; 22:00:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 39186)
Midas Milligan
I am a stock trader also interested in small cap gold/silver plays. One thing you should not forget about and to me this of utmost importance, gold/silver bullion ARE NON- VISIBLE CAPITAL GAINS. This cannot be stressed enough. Any stock you trade in an on-shore account will be accessed by you know who when it comes time to you know what. A substantial difference will have to be made on the stocks in order to equal the secure non-visible transaction
that will take place in a gold/silver bull run.

REVELATION (10/16/00; 21:46:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 39185)
CANYON RESOURCES/MIDAS MILLIAGAN
Canyon res. is a high speculative bet. I hope you have
a strong stomach. A stock like that could cease to exist
in a hurry. I wish you luck, sounds like your a little green
under your toes. Sometimes the odds are better in Las
Vegas. You might get the same results or increase your
odds playing craps.

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 21:42:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 39184)
The Friends of the Dollar are the enemies of Gold. They are....
those few people who think, and profit, and thus are responsible for the increases in production of all goods and services. The more goods and services they produce. and profit they make, the stronger the dollar becomes, since it's strength is based on the total supply of goods and services, instead of, and thus against, the supply of gold. The stronger the dollar the lower the demand for, and thus price of, gold. So the friends of gold must destroy the mind to destroy the dollar and make the price of gold rise. How do you destroy the mind to accomplish this? You convince it to stop, to quit, to "shrug" or go on strike against the dollar world it, an "Atlas" supports. You tell it to sell it's paper assets and instead invest in gold. So if you want to raise the price of gold it's time to convince Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Jack Welch, Ross Perot, and all the rest down the line etc...etc..."scabs" the producers and profit makers who befriend and support the dollar at the expense of the price of gold and thus you, to join you and your mind on strike. For further explanation I'll refer you to the novel Atlas Shrugged.

Parsifal (10/16/00; 21:13:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 39183)
Seems the New Economy does not pay taxes
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/14017.html

We previously shared some discussion on the subject of Microsoft and Cicso not paying taxes. Seems it is true.

Here are some links that provide detail on the subject:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/14017.html

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/14016.html

http://www.fool.com/news/foth/2000/foth001016.htm

http://www.sjmercury.com/local/center/cisco1010.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/10/09/MN3707.DTL

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 21:01:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 39182)
Response to TownCrier
Let's suppose I buy 1000 ounces of gold for 270,000$. If the price of gold rises to 4800$ an ounce I can sell it for 4.8 million dollars. If I invest the 270,000$ in Canyon Resources, a gold company, I can buy 500,000 shares at 50 cents a share for 270,000 and sell it at 30$ a share for 15 million dollars using a conservative p.e ratio. Gold paper is a derivative and derivatives give you more leverage than buying physical gold plus margin. Paper gold is safe because it's tied to the company's gold reserves. If you are investing billions of dollars like Buffet and Gates etc... you buy the physical because there isnt enough gold paper to buy at reasonable prices due to lack of liquidity.

RAP (10/16/00; 20:59:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 39181)
3rd temple
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_fosterj_news/20001016_xnfoj_third_temp.shtml
'Third Temple' event stymied
Jerusalem police prevented march to holy site

REVELATION (10/16/00; 20:52:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 39180)
MIDAS MILLIGAN and ALL
Revelation has both physical and paper gold. Anyone
who carries paper without the physical may have no
insurance at all. Like anything else, moderation for
both. But don't be without physical. My holding
consist of 70% physical and 30% mix of juniors
and major mining co's. This way I am not playing
any wild cards. I have some leverage, but I am
sure to have the insurance I will need when the
time comes. Physical gold is still the ultimate personal
survival insurance policy of choice. Nothing else comes close. Fools come and go, but physical gold and silver
remain. Mining companies is more in the form of gambling.
Physical is not. Draw your own conclusions, and hope
your right.

tg (10/16/00; 20:40:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 39179)
from the Guardian
Michael Adams
Monday October 16, 2000

President Bill Clinton is threatening to interfere
once again in the search for a peace settlement in
the Middle East. If possible he should be kept at
arm's length by the UN secretary general, Kofi
Annan, whose quiet diplomacy has begun to make
peace look like a possibility. If Mr Clinton now
tries to elbow him aside and to reassert America's
control of what should be an international
operation, he is likely to fail as he has failed
before. If that happens, it will be tragic for the
people on both sides, Palestinians and Israelis,
for whom a settlement would have brought relief
from violence and misery and despair.

But one need feel no sympathy for Mr Clinton,
whose motivation in bringing together Arabs and
Israelis has always seemed to be his own personal
ambition to score a foreign policy triumph that
might rescue his tattered reputation. In pursuing
that ambition, he has masqueraded as a mediator,
an "honest broker", while all the time he and his
team of Middle East advisers have worked,
sometimes openly and sometimes surreptitiously,
to advance the interests of Israel.

It would be more accurate to say that they were
pursuing what they took to be the interests of
Israel - whereas in fact they were helping to
produce the result that we see today: a result
tragic for the Palestinians, damaging to the Middle
East and likely to be disastrous for the Israelis as
well. Israel will never be secure until it can win
the goodwill, or at least the tolerance, of its Arab
neighbours. It must be obvious to everyone that
this fictitious "peace process" has only intensified
the frustration and bitterness that have found
expression in the present Palestinian uprising.

The Americans have not merely failed to achieve
their stated aim of an equitable settlement
between Israel and the Palestinians. Ever since
Mr Clinton persuaded Yasser Arafat to shake hands
with Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, on
the White House lawn in September 1993, the
American president and his advisers have actually
made a just settlement harder to achieve.

Before that meeting there was already a perfectly
adequate framework for peace, in the shape of UN
resolutions 242 and 338. What was needed was to
implement these resolutions, which called on
Israel to withdraw from occupied territory in
exchange for recognition by the Arabs of Israel
and its right to exist behind secure borders. But
as the Israelis built settlements all over the
occupied territories it became apparent that they
had no intention of withdrawing.

For a time, the Americans professed to regard the
UN resolutions as the basis for the artificial
"peace process". But gradually they dropped any
mention of them, and as the years passed ( and the
Israeli settlements multiplied ) , they led the
negotiations further away from the United
Nations. They resisted every attempt to involve
the Europeans or the wider international
community in the search for peace in the Middle
East. When the Palestine question was debated in
the UN security council, the Americans
invariably came to the defence of Israel, even to
the extent of vetoing resolutions critical of Israeli
policies that had the unanimous support of the
other council members, including Britain.

All this has encouraged the Israelis to think
themselves politically invulnerable. Confident of
the unfailing support of the US, they could ignore
UN resolutions, annex East Jerusalem, build
Jewish settlements on Arab land, deny the
Palestinians freedom of movement, invade
southern Lebanon and bombard whatever targets
they chose, up to and including Beirut - all this in
defiance of their obligations as members of the
UN. This is a scandalous catalogue of illegal
activity, in which the underlying responsibility
has been that of the US, made worse by the
pretence that President Clinton, Madeleine
Albright and the rest of them were acting in the
interests of peace and justice.

So what next? A way must be found to break the
US monopoly over Arab-Israeli negotiations and
to return the search for peace to where it belongs:
the UN. This is what the Europeans should aim for.
They have never made use of the influence they
possess, and it is time they - especially Britain -
played an active role instead of tagging along
behind the Americans.

It is not a matter of being anti-American or
anti-Israeli. The fact is that between them Israel
and the US have colluded in a policy designed to
favour the Israelis, rather than produce a
balanced peace that would take account of the
interests of all the peoples concerned.

Whether such a peace is still possible, now that a
spark has set light to all the pent-up resentment
over the failure of the American "peace process",
it is impossible to say. Certainly it will not be
easy, so the sooner a new initiative is taken, the
better. The fact that the secretary general of the
UN has taken the lead makes a good start. Now let
Britain lead the other Europeans in lending him
their support. And, if possible, keep Mr Clinton
and Mrs Albright out of the picture.

Michael Adams is a research fellow in the politics
department of Exeter University and a former

auspec (10/16/00; 20:17:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 39178)
beesting #39175
Hello Friend beesting,
Short & sweet- You gotta have the goods proven before anyone is going to buy the stock or provide a loan even in Vancouver { at least in current market}. When a gold mania is upon us most any project can find financing of some sort.
The comments about not BUYING future production were made in jest, poking fun of the hedging mess we are in.
World class projects are currently on hold for lack of interest and financing. This is shake-out time and only the strongest companies are going to survive, very hard times. The contrarian now says load up on something with staying power.
OK- say you could find someone willing to buy X amount of stock {that is the problem}. This could turn out to be quite lucrative with 2 blessed events: 1- You get appreciation of the gold CPM will graciously sell you. 2-You are able to make a clear profit over expenditures on the mining operation. Gold stocks are "burning matches" and very few are successful.
My bottom line-Sell stock of any type you can {who will put up $1,000,000 for all shares of auspec intl.?} We will buy 90% gold from Michael, and of course have founder's shares and many options. Odds are as gold goes where it belongs we will succeed greatly. Worse case scenario- all those fools that bought shares in rtmauspec inc. lose all their investment. We lived it up in the meantime with perks and salaries. Welcome to historic Vancouver! {Actually own lots of "Vancouver" stocks so much of this is, again, on the lighter side}. This is all where the expression comes from that a gold mine is a "hole in the ground with a liar at the entrance.
I would like to be one of your paid officers once you have sold this stock.
Best to you Sir beesting

SHIFTY (10/16/00; 20:16:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 39177)
A Joke

A devoted wife was taking care of her husband, who had been slipping in
and out of a coma for several months. When he came to his senses, he
motioned for her to come near. "You have been with me through all the
bad times," he said. "When I got fired, you were there to support me.
When my business failed, you were there. When I got shot, you were by
my side. When we lost the house, you gave me support. When my health
started failing, you were still by my side. You know what?" "What dear?"
she asked gently.
"I think you bring me bad luck."

TownCrier (10/16/00; 19:34:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 39176)
Sir Midas Mulligan, you said...
"Town Crier, my mind is limp and passive, but I still actively think with it just like any others like me do."

I do not doubt for a minute the veracity of that, and as such, you would be doing us a service to elaborate how it is that you rationalize your following claim:

"Unless you're very wealthy it makes more sense to invest in paper gold. The physical is only for those who are so wealthy that they can't invest in paper due to liquidity problems."

beesting (10/16/00; 19:29:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39175)
Hi Sir auspec # 39169
auspec (10/16/00; 18:35:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39169)
Beesting/ Mine
Greetings Good Sir,
Am I missing something? How do we know the FUTURE production of this mine, reserves etc?
Otherwise would be buying stock relating to a "hole in the ground with a guy with his hand out at the
entrance". That was interesting a few times, but even I catch on eventually.
OK say there are plenty of reserves, say 5 yrs worth. Gotta find a source of money, need a
feasibility study and so on. Without a great internal rate of return no funding coming. You have it all
WRONG, you need to SELL your future production not BUY it. They will run you guys off the
planet for such a scheme. You're trying to turn USAGOLD into the Anti-Bullion Bank. Michael will
be kicked off the net and we will all lose our "intellectual p-nut gallery". Better just buy some
physical like the rest of us. Best to you!

beesting comment:

Thanks for the input! With the $100,000 extra cash from the sale of stock, exploration could be performed as needed, at the mine.
Why should I sell my future production at below production costs which would quite quickly bankrupt the whole operation?
If I were a farmer, yes I would have to sell my production before it spoiled, as a producer of Gold(which has some of the longest "shelf" life known)why not legally keep the fruits of your labor safe-ly in your own safe keeping? All the stock holders of this operation could easily see on the quarterly reports just exactly how much their shares are worth.
Instead of a pure Gold mine, why don't we call it a combination Gold mine/Savings Bank(remember banks operate on fractional reserves).Does that make more sense? The biggest Gold mines are making their profits from "paper Gold"(deritives)not the sale of metal.

P.S. I'm not the owner of the mine, and don't want to be, but if the plan is feasable I wouldn't mind being a shareholder.....beesting.

Cavan Man (10/16/00; 19:27:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 39174)
Intel
Stock is down 12% today and 53% since August. Hey, it's only money!

Cavan Man (10/16/00; 19:23:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 39173)
Town Crier
Looks like we'll have to make another reservation at the "Hotel Silly" (c/o "Harris"-Barney Miller).

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 19:09:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 39172)
About physical vs paper gold
Unless you're very wealthy it makes more sense to invest in paper gold. The physical is only for those who are so wealthy that they can't invest in paper due to liquidity problems, or those who are paranoid doom and gloomers.

Gandalf the White (10/16/00; 18:59:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 39171)
Listen well, Sir Beesting !!
auspec (10/16/00; 18:35:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39169)
Beesting/ Mine
Greetings Good Sir,
==
Auspec answered you while I was ROFL !! If you want to see some other similar mines, I can show you a bakers dozen not too far from your home.
<;-)

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 18:53:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 39170)
Response to Hugh Askton and Town Crier and general message
Professor, this is John Galt. Midas Mulligan let's me use his name for this forumn. It's good to here from you. I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you because as Ayn Rand said, "Emotions are not tools of cognition". Feelers, as opposed to thinkers like us, can not grasp reality and thus can't know or grasp gold and it's value today since they have no means of cognition, no mind. They will surely buy it though when it peaks in price.
Town Crier, my mind is limp and passive, but I still actively think with it just like any others like me do. So YOU CAN SUCCUMB to having a limp, passive mind like mine and actively engage in thought and discussion with yourself or others. I just don't like feeding emotionalist parasites energy from my mind. Let them get it from those willing to be their victims whom we strikers (minds on strike) call scabs.
Feelers (exmpls of) and Thinkers who are good friends
(Peter Keatings) vs (Hank Reardens)
Tiger Woods vs David Duval
Derek Jeter vs Alex Rodriguez
Bill Clinton vs Bill Gates

I'm an independent contractor mobile billboard driver. I just got a contract for work out of town for a few weeks, but don't know where yet. Might be my last post for a while, but if so I'll be back. And in case you didn't know already, 1st gold rush was 1hr north of Atlanta in Dahlonega. Ga. in 1829 to add to what I said earlier about Sea Island and Ga.Tech.

auspec (10/16/00; 18:35:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39169)
Beesting/ Mine
Greetings Good Sir,
Am I missing something? How do we know the FUTURE production of this mine, reserves etc? Otherwise would be buying stock relating to a "hole in the ground with a guy with his hand out at the entrance". That was interesting a few times, but even I catch on eventually.
OK say there are plenty of reserves, say 5 yrs worth. Gotta find a source of money, need a feasibility study and so on. Without a great internal rate of return no funding coming. You have it all WRONG, you need to SELL your future production not BUY it. They will run you guys off the planet for such a scheme. You're trying to turn USAGOLD into the Anti-Bullion Bank. Michael will be kicked off the net and we will all lose our "intellectual p-nut gallery". Better just buy some physical like the rest of us. Best to you!

White Hills (10/16/00; 18:32:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 39168)
Beesting Msg#39164
Sign me up! White Hills

nickel62 (10/16/00; 18:30:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 39167)
Welcome Hugh Akston I found your post very interesting regarding the Myers-Briggs
personality profiles. I had thought something along the same lines but then one of the first several posts pointed our that other types also can be suspicious of movements in the very basic element of their survival like money. I do think that their are probalby a great deal of NT s here at he forum, which is interesting in and of itself but there also appears to be a fair recognition of others as well. I will tell a little story of the nature of types to illustrate the point. When I first got into the study of personality types and decided that it would be a wonderful way for me as a widower to better understand my teenaged children I joined the chat room support groups of all the personality types of my three oldest children so that I could better understand not only their personality type but how they would want to be treated excetra. The only problem was my daughter who at fourteen was my major concern was an ESTP a type that is very much a doer and always looking for excitemnt. Not exactly what a single father wants to hear from his only daughter. So I signed up immediately at the chat sight and waited for someone to post. Weeks became months and now almost a year and no one, not a single person has joined the club. All the other clubs have members but this personality type has no time for this feely touchy stuff and as far as I can see no interest in talking about it. So maybe we are the collection of people who care about what is happening to our montetary future and we post because to us it is important. As far as my fourteen year old daughter goes I gave up trying to understand her and am now spending all my efforts trying to keep her as interested in sports as I can for as long as I can.

nickel62 (10/16/00; 18:14:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 39166)
You know maybe if we all worked real hard at making the true information available about how this market manipulation
Is being done we could achieve the Nast level of impact. The cartoonist from the last century really stirred the pot on the politicans of Tammy Hall in New York City who were so currupt they became an icon for corruption to this day. The cartoonist charactures of them made their actions so obvious that even the youngest and most unsophisticated reader understood who was screwing who. The myteries that have been revealed to all of us throught the great minds that share at this forum should be translated like those old cartoons into concepts that are so elegant in their simlicity and impact that even our children will understand how the game is played. Collectively between us we have much understanding and some wisdom perhaps this is an acheivable goal. I would so like to have the American investing public understand the scam that is preying on them so they can walk with some fragment of their retirements still intact while the paper rolling investment bankers are still holding their undistributed underwriting and like the junk bond underwriters are doing right now have it forced on them as it goes to zero. Perhaps a quixotic quest but one that might well find support here among the others who share my views. Plus all of us have much to learn from each others experience so in trying to make it understandable to all we will enhance our own knowledge.

Gold, get some. And then get more understanding and share it with others who are as of yet unaware.

auspec (10/16/00; 18:08:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 39165)
Cornerstone for 3rd Temple?
Does anyone know if the cornerstone for the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem was layed today as scheduled? Hasn't exactly hit any headlines I've seen. Thanks.

beesting (10/16/00; 17:52:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 39164)
A Grass Roots Way to Raise the Physical Price of Gold!
First a disclaimer:
This post is in no way ment as a solicitation of any type!

Dedicated and hopefully read by Sir Yukon Gold Miner!

This is an expansion of a post I made many months ago,which drew some agreement from Sir Journey Man.

PART ONE......THE MINE!!!
As I have mentioned here before I live in the western U.S.A. in an area where some very small Gold mining is still going on. Since my last post on this subject I've made a point to become a lot better acquainted with a local friend I'll call "Pete".
Pete is retired but is an owner in some capacity(partner I think)of a producing Gold mine.The mine runs straight into hard rock for about 100 feet, makes a left hand turn, and drops straight down for about another 100 feet.You see the owners for about the last 60 years(?)have been following a vein of high concentrate Gold.The vein varies in width from about one inch to eight inches, says Pete.On both sides of the vein is an extremely hard greenish volcanic type rock. Pete is drilling and chipping this apart, to follow the Gold vein.Pete is also building an elevator to move himself and ore up and down easier.Electric lights are also installed. Pete didn't give me an estimate of the amount of Gold that has been mined over 60(?) years but lets just do an estimate. 5 ounces per month for one year would = 60 ounces per year, times 60 years would = 3,600 ounces. At $275 per ounce Gold it comes out to just under 1 million dollars or $990,000.

PART TWO.....THE IDEA!
The reason the mining is going on at a snails pace is, it costs "BIG" money to hard rock mine(equipment,EPA,etc.) also the low price of Gold is not helping. Now I have some background in finance, so I'm going to present this idea to Pete:
Using past performance at the same rate as future production, we'll say the mine is currently worth 1 million dollars. So, without any additional information available at this time, lets under write one million dollars worth of stock, and offer it to the public, of course still retaining controlling interest of the mine.

PART THREE......THIS GOLD MINE vs OTHER GOLD MINES!
Now, to be legal the mine has to issue quarterly & Annual (progress) Reports.In the past "values"($) of listed stock close-ly followed earnings and projected earnings, reported in the earnings and assets section of annual and quarterly reports. Now for those still reading, please pay close ATTENTION NOW!!! All previous Gold mines and many listed companies have diminishing assets as time marches on.Hence the total value of the whole company should diminish(including share prices, unless there is new expansion) over a period of time.
This proposed company, if they are successful in raising 1 million dollars is going to BUY with the funds raised from the sale of stock(hope-fully from USAGOLD) $900,000 worth of physical Gold, and use only $100,000 for mining expenses and SAVE all the Gold they mine!!(adding to assets)
So, lets say this happens quickly and by the next quarterly report the company is "debt free" and the assets now total $1,900,000.
This time the company issues an additional $5,000,000 worth of stock, and when it sells buys another $4,900,000 worth of Gold.(from USAGOLD)
Again, things happen quickly and by the next quarterly report the company is still debt free with assets of $6,800,000, and able to issue more stock. Repeating and expanding as quickly as time and finances allow.
The next purchase could be somewhere around $25 million! Well folks thats about 3 tonnes of Gold at todays prices!
I'm sure by this time the physical "POG" would be rising as others would get wise to this scheme, causing our companies stock to skyrocket along with the price of Gold!

Does anyone see anything wrong with this scheme?
Comments Welcome!......beesting.

TownCrier (10/16/00; 17:50:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 39163)
Growth in China
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/money/regb2_1017.html
HEADLINE: China's economy grows 8.2% in third quarter

The chief economist for Dresdner Kleinwort Benson in Hongkong said, "Consumption is taking on a life of its own and is driving the economy," as the first three quarters of the year revealed retail sales to be up 9.9 percent. Fueling that spending was increased wages from additional hours of workers as industrial output climbed by a record 12.8 percent in July and August.

Can you imagine the potential for gold consumption as this nation makes additional progress to liberalize its gold market?

Hugh Akston (10/16/00; 17:47:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 39162)
MBTI personality types
I hope I'm not too late to join in this discussion, as I find the MBTI personality type of a person highly predictive of his approach to life. Personally, I'm an NT, and so are almost all of my friends, as is my wife. I suspect that almost all gold bugs are NT's. After all, if you're a Sensor or a Feeler, you aren't likely to be able to or be interested in looking underneath the covers, so to speak, of the current fiat money charade.

beesting (10/16/00; 17:41:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 39161)
A Grass Roots Way to Raise the Physical Price of Gold!
First a disclaimer:
This post is in no way ment as a solicitation of any type!

Dedicated and hopefully read by Sir Yukon Gold Miner!

This is an expansion of a post I made many months ago,which drew some agreement from Sir Journey Man.

PART ONE......THE MINE!!!
As I have mentioned here before I live in the western U.S.A. in an area where some very small Gold mining is still going on. Since my last post on this subject I've made a point to become a lot better acquainted with a local friend I'll call "Pete".
Pete is retired but is an owner in some capacity(partner I think)of a producing Gold mine.The mine runs straight into hard rock for about 100 feet, makes a left hand turn, and drops straight down for about another 100 feet.You see the owners for about the last 60 years(?)have been following a vein of high concentrate Gold.The vein varies in width from about one inch to eight inches, says Pete.On both sides of the vein is an extremely hard greenish volcanic type rock. Pete is drilling and chipping this apart, to follow the Gold vein.Pete is also building an elevator to move himself and ore up and down easier.Electric lights are also installed. Pete didn't give me an estimate of the amount of Gold that has been mined over 60(?) years but lets just do an estimate. 5 ounces per month for one year would = 60 ounces per year, times 60 years would = 3,600 ounces. At $275 per ounce Gold it comes out to just under 1 million dollars or $990,000.

PART TWO.....THE IDEA!
The reason the mining is going on at a snails pace is, it costs "BIG" money to hard rock mine(equipment,EPA,etc.) also the low price of Gold is not helping. Now I have some background in finance, so I'm going to present this idea to Pete:
Using past performance at the same rate as future production, we'll say the mine is currently worth 1 million dollars. So, without any additional information available at this time, lets under write one million dollars worth of stock, and offer it to the public, of course still retaining controlling interest of the mine.

PART THREE......THIS GOLD MINE vs OTHER GOLD MINES!
Now, to be legal the mine has to issue quarterly & Annual (progress) Reports.In the past "values"($) of listed stock close-ly followed earnings and projected earnings, reported in the earnings and assets section of annual and quarterly reports. Now for those still reading, please pay close ATTENTION NOW!!! All previous Gold mines and many listed companies have diminishing assets as time marches on.Hence the total value of the whole company should diminish(including share prices, unless there is new expansion) over a period of time.
This proposed company, if they are successful in raising 1 million dollars is going to BUY with the funds raised from the sale of stock(hope-fully from USAGOLD) $900,000 worth of physical Gold, and use only $100,000 for mining expenses and SAVE all the Gold they mine!!(adding to assets)
So, lets say this happens quickly and by the next quarterly report the company is "debt free" and the assets now total $1,900,000.
This time the company issues an additional $5,000,000 worth of stock, and when it sells buys another $4,900,000 worth of Gold.(from USAGOLD)
Again, things happen quickly and by the next quarterly report the company is still debt free with assets of $6,800,000, and able to issue more stock. Repeating and expanding as quickly as time and finances allow.
The next purchase could be somewhere around $25 million! Well folks thats about 3 tonnes of Gold at todays prices!
I'm sure by this time the physical "POG" would be rising as others would get wise to this scheme, causing our companies stock to skyrocket along with the price of Gold!

Does anyone see anything wrong with this scheme?
Comments Welcome!......beesting.

TownCrier (10/16/00; 17:29:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 39160)
For those of you who HAVEN'T yet succumbed to making your brain "totally limp and passive"
http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3RIWMIEEC&live=true&useoverridetemplate=ZZZUGORQ00C&tagid=ZZZ1XPDX70C&subheading=uk
Anybody care to venture a thought as to how long the UK will abide by these losses?

This FT article reports from London:
"Sony on Monday blamed sterling's value against the European single currency and the rising cost of doing business in Britain for 400 job losses at its plant in south Wales.

"The announcement, which follows 350 job losses at Hitachi's plant near Cardiff, prompted claims that inward investors are beginning to think seriously about diverting investment to continental Europe because of the euro problem."

They are feeling the pinch from the difficulty to export to continental Europe. Ahhhhhhh...the marvelous vagaries of international exchange rates...

A pattern and cause for concern seems to be welling up among Japanese companies fretting over the UK's commitment to the euro. The general secretary of the trade union body TUC Wales, David Jenkins, said, "We believe that with the current strength of the pound and without a clear commitment to the euro, we will see a drift of investment on to mainland Europe, probably to the new emerging countries which are about to join the EU."

Farfel (10/16/00; 17:16:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 39159)
Letter to the Philadelphia Exchange concerning Phelps Dodge
Recently I was provided the criteria necessary to include a company in the XAU.

However, I find these Exchange rules to be preposterous, given the dire circumstances in the gold industry.

The main issue is this: why does the Philadelphia Exchange adhere to such rigid rules, yet other exchanges will change rules on the spin of a dime to adjust to new emerging circumstances?

For example, when palladium started to go through the roof, the NYMEX instituted new 150% margin rules designed to eliminate the speculation.

So why can't the Philadelphia Exchange recognize the unusually bearish nature of the gold market and ADAPT its rules to the new situation?

Of course, gold investors know the answer: we are faced with yet another egregious double standard, one designed to benefit the gold shorts to the detriment of genuine gold investors.

If you give a damn about the matter, then write to these corrupt clowns and give them a piece of your mind.

Thanks

F*

---

feedback@phlx.com

Dear Sirs:

Please do NOT bother to send me the litany of your criteria for companies' inclusion in the XAU.

You are well aware of the troubles facing gold producers today, not to mention their many thousands of investors.

YOUR RULES WERE NOT HANDED DOWN BY MOSES FROM MOUNT SINAI. THEY CAN BE CHANGED, THEY CAN BE ADAPTED TO A NEW SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

Your rigidity with respect to the Exchange's XAU criteria is simply another categorical indication of Wall Street's aim to bankrupt an entire industry sector and an entire class of investors; furthermore, by your actions, it
is obvious that you wish to exclude gold as an investment for the sake of protecting the enormous gold short positions of Wall Street's major bullion banks. Those enormous gold short positions have been documented by numerous
analysts in the industry.

So spare me your litany of Exchange rules. Either recognize the necessity of ADAPTING those rules to current negative circumstances in the gold market or else be ready someday to face the consequences of your actions to harm an entire class of gold investors.

Very Truly,

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 16:29:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 39158)
response to nickel 62
Emotion is great if it's based on, secondary to, absolute reason just as paper currency is great if it's based on, secondary to, gold which is absolute money. Otherwise both are primary, instead of secondary, and therefore evil or irrational. My emotions and paper money, are of course secondary derivatives of my mind and it's knowledge of gold, and thus good. Unlike the general public, I am not an "irrationally exuberant and euphoric paperbug". To the contrary, I'm a rationally exuberant and euphoric goldbug who desires to live not die. The problem with communicating by writing is that it's impossible to control the connotation of what you say.

Cavan Man (10/16/00; 15:52:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 39157)
Great Story @ Bloomberg
It's about the $86 BILLION loss on investor equity in the 40 largest merger/buyouts this year. Sorry cannot get the link but it is a good read for the bears (da'bears).

Cavan Man (10/16/00; 15:46:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 39156)
nickel62 39155
What he said.

nickel62 (10/16/00; 15:27:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 39155)
It is always important to not allow ourselves to become overly emotional and open to criticism as extremists.
Perhaps Mr. Midas Mulligan would like to compose himself a little.

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 14:55:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 39154)
additional notes
and Steve, democracy is unlimited mob rule that created the mess which you talk about and all other messes. That's why we need a gold standard, so we can replace democracy with a representative republic which protects individual rights against the whims of the public. To achieve such a government and economy will require that our current corrupt system fail so that those who own gold can rise to power and use their gold gun to lay down the Natural and Constitutional Law so to speak. The sooner those who still
think and produce stop and quit the sooner this will happen.
Now I just consciously and clearly and explicity learned about the power of my mind, which is the power to drain emotion from emotional people, early this past winter. That's when oil prices began to rise and markets began to fall. I lost control of my motor and mind from late may to late august and markets took off as oil fell. But I corrected my error and since then markets have been falling as oil has been rising. This will continue because I'm in full control of my mind and motor now. Don't expect stocks to go down every day and oil to rise every day, but expect the trend in stocks to be steadily down and in oil to be steadily up. Eventually the Fed will have to respond by raising rates and this will set the stage for inflation and a rising price of gold. Be patient as my mind is a slow draining motor and society is a sea of non-thinking static energy, or emotional people with their irrationallly exuberant dollars hoarded in stocks.

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 14:40:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 39153)
Response to Steve and detail explanation of my "John Galt"- like motor/mind
Steve, your wasting your time, effort, and energy fighting primary emotion. Emotion, by it's nature isn't real but reactionary, and statists are all emotional reactionaries against the mind, including yours. It's you and every other thinker that created them and support them by your thinking and actions. You are like Dr. Frankenstein, they are like Frankenstein because you made them whether or not you know it, and they hate you for it and live to destroy you and your mind through an ever increasing amount of force, ie. taxation, regulation, and private property confiscation against you. To only escape you have is to do what Ayn Rand said to do in "Atlas Shrugged" and shrug, which means quit thinking, producing, and fighting them. Go on strike against them so to speak and invest all your money in gold. If you must work to support yourself then get a low level job like I have. I drove a cab the last 5 years and now I drive a mobile billboard. For further explanation read "Atlas Shrugged" and "For the New Intellectual" and all the rest of Ayn Rand's books.
Now about my motor, the static energy converter which is my mind. I make my brain totally limp and passive. When I do this I'm able to periodically drain static energy or emotion from emotional people. I can feel their static energy or emotion come through my ears into my brain which then converts it to energy for me and those other minds on strike (passive) like mind. When I say passive I mean physically, I still think while my mind is passive. I can't control when I drain them but as long as I keep my mind passive it happens periodically and randomly for brief moments usually between 2 to 10 minutes.

SteveH (10/16/00; 13:53:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 39152)
repost
repost:

Shooting Down Democracy

by Jason Hutchens

[ back to table of contents ]

After first doing the right thing by looking to the United States Congress for help in regulating industries such as tobacco and firearms, the federal government and many states are now directing their efforts toward the civil courts. Having failed to get their way by constitutionally provided means, advocates of greater government regulation over a number of legitimate industries are making an end-run around the democratic process. Civil suits are quickly becoming an acceptable means to force unfavored but perfectly legal industries to settle huge lawsuits by essentially accepting new taxes and regulations their attackers could not persuade the American people to impose through their duly elected representatives.

This approach offers them a number of distinct advantages. First, the courts determine a winner and a loser often much more quickly than Congress. Second, if the plaintiffs do not receive the desired verdict in one court, they may well succeed in another. And if all else fails, they can take advantage of the appeals procedure. For the federal government and the states, the process resembles gambling�they may lose on the first deal, but they still hope to win on a later hand. Finally, the defendants in these cases have to pay the litigation costs out of past profits, whereas the federal and state governments can pool huge resources to bring and pursue these suits. This disparity in resources can and has made some corporations within the targeted industries make settlements and concessions that they would not otherwise have made.

This type of activity by the federal government and the states may seem innocuous, but it presents a fundamental threat to America's representative democracy. One of the cornerstones of our form of government is the principle of separation of powers, the division of governmental authority into three branches. The legislative branch makes the laws, the executive branch enforces those laws, and the judicial branch interprets the laws and administers justice. Allowing one branch of government to intrude too far into the role of another invites an inherent abuse of power. The three branches of government were designed to check each other, thus preventing abuses by any branch.

What the federal government's executive branch and the states are essentially doing is asking the courts to step in where Congress has refused to do their bidding. They are trying to make law. Each time this occurs, the courts tread in water reserved for Congress. As citizens, we elect the Congress to represent us, and if they do not keep our interests in mind, we can decline to send them back to their jobs after their term in office has ended. Judges, however, are appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate. Consequently, they are not accountable in the way the Congress and president are, which is why the Constitution does not allow them to set public policy. They would have too much freedom to set it according to their own agendas without the consent of the governed.

Hence, regardless of one's feelings about the tobacco and gun industries, this type of activity by the federal government and the states should concern every citizen. Such behavior blatantly subverts the legitimate legislative process, bypassing the protections that the process was designed to ensure: open and zealous debate over the issues and most important, accountability for the decisions that are ultimately made. Bypassing the Congress puts policy determinations in the hands of a few judges who make decisions based not on an understanding of the popular will, constitutional authority, and a legislator's individual conscience, but instead on their own reasoning, emotions, opinions, and biases, without the benefit of debate and electoral accountability.

One objection to the legislative process, of course, is that it can be slow and unresponsive, but this is part of the system's brilliance. The legislative process serves to ensure that public policy determinations are not quick, knee-jerk reactions to ephemeral social pressures and mob psychology. Instead, it ensures that public policy develops over time and by the consent of those governed by it. Therefore, by allowing a few unelected and unaccountable judges to decide the nation's public policy directions, the executive branch of the federal government, using the lure of big financial prizes to ensure the cooperation of state governments, is systematically removing the citizenry from the decision-making process. This trend is a sure threat to the representative democracy that has made America the envy of the world.

(The author is a research assistant at the Hudson Institute's Crime Control Policy Center.)

beesting (10/16/2000; 13:27:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 39151)
Trying to make sense out of currency fluctuations.
On Sept, 22,2000 all the worlds currencies gained in value, as the U.S. dollar lost value. I know Sir ORO could figure out what exactly happened much better than me, but let me take a wild guess.

Using this definition of "The Floating Exchange Rate":

""Currencies strengthen or weaken based on a nation's reserves of hard currency and Gold,its international trade balance......etc. etc.""

Now what also happened on Sept. 22 the British Pound jumped an astonishing(for one day)7 U.S. cents, and has kept its value until the last few trading days.

This is what I think happened, but remember it's an opinion only:

England, a few weeks before Sept.22 had bought some U.S. electric utility companies in the northeastern U.S., with total figures in the transaction into the billions.Sept.22 may have been the settlement day for the transaction.
Pounds were exchanged for dollars, but the U.S. FED..(because of continuing U.S.dollar strength, caused by oil being bought worldwide with U.S. dollars)..instead of adding billions in Pounds to the U.S. dollar reserves, bought Euro's enmasse with the Pounds driving the price of the Euro up, and on the books only, losing the billions in dollar value of the sold utility companies.Big time currency traders got wind of the deal beforehand,and by buying Euro's before settlement and selling after settlement, made a killing.Now the U.S. owned Euro's may still be in limbo somewhere, or the currency traders(hedge funds)may have bought a lot of them and are holding them(Euro's)offshore so they wouldn't show up as U.S. dollar reserves.How did the Japanese fit into all this? I don't know,maybe some kind of silent partner, to the whole deal they're money(Yen) has kept about the same value throughout all of this.

Which brings us back to today!
Again most currencies are now losing value as the U.S.dollar gains, simply because oil is still payed for in dollars worldwide.All this transaction did was buy a little time.

Why am I writing all this? Only to show how easy it would be for some to manipulate paper money on a world wide scale.

Those in the Know are Buying Physical....Gold....beesting.

milos (10/16/00; 13:10:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 39150)
Autocorrelation and the St.Louis FRB
From Monetary Trends October 2000;
Titled - Are the Fed and Finacial Markets in Sync?
One would get the impression of dissociated events based on the question, but the answer summarized in this cover message is;
"Still, since 1994, FOMC actions generally have not taken markets by susprise-the Fed and finacial markets apparently are in sync."

I guess other idiots like me read this baloney!

Journeyman (10/16/00; 12:52:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 39149)
Do people really get what "they" want? @Aristotle, ALL
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/MONEYbrief.html

The following is excerpted from the link provided by ji (10/15/2000; 8:22:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 39057). Thanx ji!! It's excellent work, as is typical for Attorney Becraft.

This excerpt shows an interesting piece of history -- where the hard money clause in the constitution came from -- and, I think, that people don't really want paper money --- most people just go along, trusting the folks in control to do what's best. We know how that turns out, and ALWAYS has. (Caveat: genuine change DOES sometimes happen. For example if the monetary "authorities" controlled their emissions of paper currency, fiat would work. Are they this time?)

Aristotle, I think the worst you can say of "the people" is they trust what the self-serving bankster/government mouth-pieces tell them. True, that's a very serious mistake, but do you condemn them for trusting --- or the so-called "leaders" like Philander Knox, et. al. (who habitually lie, cheat, and steal) who regularly mislead?

All that follows is from attorney Becraft.

===========================================================

The first paper money experiment in colonial America
occurred in 1690 when Massachusetts, anticipating a need to pay
soldiers sent to war in Canada, made the first emission of paper
money. After the soldiers returned from this unsuccessful
invasion attempt, they received their pay in this scrip; see
Craig v. Missouri, 29 U.S. 410 (1830). The direct result of this
improvident experiment brought Gresham's Law ("bad money drives
out good money") into operation and such specie as existed in the
colony soon departed for use in England. Notwithstanding the
apparent adverse effects of paper emissions, the supposed short
term benefit was noticed by other colonies and over succeeding
years, they repeated the same experiment. In May, 1703, South
Carolina engaged in this same expedient. Thereafter, New
Hampshire followed in 1709, Connecticut in June, 1709, New York
in November, 1709, Rhode Island in July, 1710, Pennsylvania in
March, 1723, and Maryland in 1733. The remainder of the colonies,
particularly Virginia, seems to have escaped the urge of the
dreadful expedient of paper money.[2] George Bancroft noted that
the colonies, once addicted to use of paper money, continued with
further emissions which only proved to be disastrous.

During the period when many of the colonies were emitting a
paper currency, the value of the notes of one colony constantly
fluctuated against the value of all other colonial notes. This
uncertainty in value was directly proportional to the number and
amount of the emissions made by any particular colony; the
results were certain and caused the destruction of trade and
commerce as well as confidence in the medium of exchange. This
was aptly demonstrated by the example of Rhode Island. In 1743,
Rhode Island issued "bills of credit" wherein 27 shillings in
paper denomination were alleged to equal one ounce of silver. But
in 1751, the Rhode Island General Assembly devalued these bills
to the point where, at law, 54 shillings in paper were
exchangeable for one ounce of silver. Undeterred by the ill
effects of devaluation, the Assembly thereafter made the exchange
rate equal 64 shillings of paper for an ounce of silver. Not only
did the colonies violate the express dictates of Oresme and the
common law by making paper be money and not gold and silver, but
they further violated the law against debasement and debased
their paper.

In 1751, one of our founding fathers, Roger Sherman, the
very man who made Article 1, � 10, cl. 1 a prominent part of our
Constitution, was engaged in business in Connecticut. While so
employed, he extended credit to a merchant from Rhode Island, who
later attempted to discharge his liability to Sherman with Rhode
Island paper money. Sherman refused, and a legal controversy
thereafter ensued. While Roger Sherman plead in this suit that
the law required specie payment, the Rhode Island merchant
defended himself on the basis of custom of the people. The
decision in the case was in favor of the Rhode Island merchant.

Sherman was incensed at the verdict and decided, in the
great tradition of Oresme, Cotton, Locke and Blackstone, to
espouse his views in book form. In 1752, Sherman wrote a short
treatise entitled A Caveat Against Injustice, or An Inquiry Into
the Evil Consequences of a Fluctuating Medium of Exchange. This
treatise of Roger Sherman, in addition to its value in noting the
injustice and inequity of a fluctuating medium of exchange, is of
immense value in determining the true intent and meaning of Art.
1, � 10. He demonstrated that the viability of commerce was
dependent upon traders and businessmen exchanging their goods and
commodities for currency of intrinsic value. Such businessmen had
surrendered property of specific value in order to accumulate the
commodities they were selling. At the time of sale, the contract
price of the goods sold included the cost of such goods as well
as a return for the labors of the businessman. If the currency
utilized to effect this commercial exchange was without intrinsic
value, or its intrinsic value was being deflated by actions of a
sovereign government, the businessman was being unfairly and
unjustly deprived of his property and labor. Sherman concluded:

"But if what is us'd as a Medium of Exchange is
fluctuating in its Value it is no better than unjust Weights
and Measures, both which are condemn'd by the Laws of GOD
and Man, and therefore the longest and most universal Custom
could never make the Use of such a Medium either lawful or
reasonable."

"And instead of having our Properties defended and
secured to us by the Protection of the Government under
which we live; we should be always exposed to have them
taken from us by Fraud at the Pleasure of our Government,
who have no Right of Jurisdiction over us."

"But so long as we part with our most valuable
Commodities for such Bills of credit as are no Profit; but
rather a Cheat, Vexation and Snare to us, and become a
Medium whereby we are continually cheating and wronging one
another in our Dealings and Commerce ... we shall spend a
great Part of our labour and Substance for that which will
not profit us."[3]

While Roger Sherman had concisely stated the reasons and
need for a stable currency of specie, he was denied the
opportunity to remedy this vicious problem until he attended the
Constitutional Convention in 1787.

Larry Becraft, Huntsville, Alabama, (Last update: September 1,
1999) http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/MONEYbrief.html

=================================================

Regards,
Journeyman

justamereBear (10/16/00; 12:37:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 39148)
Beesting re Greenspan 39141

I read the key phrase in that comment as
"key was to let the free markets work unhindered."

I think the man is covering his A$$. Which in turn means that he foresees trouble, and knows that while the fed can influence the market, it cannot control it. This in turn leads me to believe that should the fiat market tank, they will be much quicker to impose draconian measures.

Damn, I had hoped they would bumble along a bit. Going to have to be real nimble to keep ahead of them.
Buy physical.

wolavka (10/16/00; 11:28:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 39147)
slow on comex
Everyone left and went to million family march, especially G. S. floor traders.

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 11:12:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 39146)
Reply to Beesting's message about Greenspan speech from Sea Island,Ga
Sea Island, Ga. is the most golden of the Golden Isles
(Cumberland, St.Simons, Jekyll, Sea, and some smaller ones) along the gold coast of Georgia, and is accessible by car (5hrs) from my home in Atlanta by way of the golden isles parkway. I think Greenspan was responsible for the legalization of gold ownership in 1974?, and has written the best definition and explanation of the gold standard I've ever seen in the Ayn Rand Lexicon. And congratulations to Ga.Tech football team for their victory Saturday over Wake Forest. The school colors are old gold and white and their fight song, along with the famous I'm a Rambin Wreck from Ga. Tech, is Up With the White and Gold, which I like even better.

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 10:42:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 39145)
How John Galt motor works in real life
The perfect mind is the mind that excepts no compromise with irrationality. It excepts only perfection which means no force or fraud, just freedom to think and act for yourself. That means no initiation of force, no taxes, no economic regulations, and no economic public property, but instead all trade done my mutual consent for mutual benefit. The world we live in is emotional and against a perfect, or normal world. It is a barrier against the perfect, or normal mind. The perfect mind can convert this barrrier of static energy into kinetic energy by being totally passive. When the emotionalist feel that the perfect mind is passive they can't react against it and drain it like they can the imperfect, or active, minds. The perfect mind drains them of their emotion/energy instead and converts it to energy for the friends of the perfect mind. The more emotion/static energy the perfect mind takes from the emotionalists and converts, the more energy the emotionalists must take from the imperfect minds who respond by creating more of the energy they lose by thinking and producing more. That's why the price of oil and interest rates are rising, the markets falling, and the demand for, though not yet price of, goods and services and gold are rising.

Cavan Man (10/16/00; 10:40:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 39144)
The Euro
There are more (market) unsettling comments from Mr. D today with regards to potential intervention and valuation etc.

You've got to hand it to the ECB; playing the game this way. They're not playing the conventional game. They are playing a different game and they are making the rules. Problem for them is, the rest of the world including their own informed constituency is not on that (ECB) board.

How long can they keep fiddling and dancing before the next move?

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 10:25:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 39143)
When market meltdown begins ... answer to Revelation
The market meltdown, or Titanic sinking, has already begun. If the Fed inflates market bubbles by lowering rates it also pricks them by raising rates ("the iceberg"), which it's been doing. "Don't fight the Fed", in either direction, is the wisest Wall St maxim. The price of gold simply follows direction of interest rates. Contrary to popular belief, however, raising rates creates inflation not fights it, causing a mutually reinforcing upward spiral in interest rates, inflation, and the price of gold. A reversal of what's been happening since 1981 when interest rates peaked.

TownCrier (10/16/00; 10:20:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 39142)
Currency report: US dollar higher on Japan's corporate bankruptcy
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/articles/2000/10/16/market19088.htm
The yen fell to 108.09 per dollar on the release of figures showing Japanese corporate bankruptcies in September have increased by 9.5 percent over this time one year ago.

beesting (10/16/00; 09:52:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 39141)
I Think Mr. Greenspan also has a Golden Nestegg,From the Sound of This Speech!

Monday October 16, 9:22 am Eastern Time

Greenspan: Settlement Needs
Overhaul

SEA ISLAND, Ga. (Reuters) - Federal Reserve Chairman Alan
Greenspan said on Monday the clearance and settlement process
for U.S. equities and other corporate securities was outdated and
in dire need of overhaul.

Addressing a Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta conference, Greenspan warned that failure to
modernize the system could create serious capacity problems, and even compromise the entire
equity market when ******trading volumes jump in times of increased volatility.

``Already there are signs that trading volumes are straining the capacity of the infrastructure,'' he
said.

``Many fear that, without a complete re-engineering of the process...further increases in trading
volumes, driven in part by the ongoing decimalization of equity prices, will soon result in serious
capacity problems,'' he added, noting that such developments ``clearly must be a significant concern
for policymakers''.

Equity and other securities trades are usually settled by the third business day after the trade occurs,
but growing trading volumes -- driven by the development of new technology -- has led to errors
and delays in settlement and thus increased risk to all participants, Greenspan said.

``Furthermore, should capacity problems emerge because of a *******volatility-induced spike in trading
volumes,******** the equity markets themselves could be compromised,'' Greenspan said.*********

He said efforts by the Securities Industry Association to shorten the settlement process from three to
one business days ''deserve support and encouragement''.

But he also noted that the task of overhauling the system was up to the private sector, not to
policymakers. ``It has never proved wise for policymakers to try to direct the evolution of markets,
and it strikes me as especially problematic at this juncture,'' he said.

The powerful central bank chief said the key was *******to let free market forces work unhindered.

``Equity markets will inevitably shift capital from the losers to the winners,'' he said. ``In most cases,
the losers will fade away without placing any burdens on their creditors. But some undoubtedly will
fail. This is a tendency that should not be resisted.''

Greenspan's speech, transmitted via videolink to the Atlanta Fed's Financial Markets Conference in
Sea Island, Ga., did not address the outlook for the U.S. economy or short-term interest rates.

Comments:
Please read carefully where you see this********!!
It sounds to me like Mr.Greenspan has been reading some of these forums and fully expects volatility in equities of all types.
Wouldn't the "paper" Gold market be called an equities market, or am I reading too much into this speech?....beesting.

nickel62 (10/16/00; 09:44:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 39140)
REPOST FROM KITCO which is a copy of the NYTIMES article on Paper moey
You can see why they want to get out of the paper $1.00 bill business at treasury and replace it with the more durable golden looking coin. If these counterfiters are having trouble making money at less than a dollar a piece the Feds are probably having trouble keeping their costs down too. There is no inflation though. In ancient times the debasement of the currency would go on until it reached the value of the base metal they were putting into the coins. Paper therefore led to whole new realms of opportunity in the pursuit of bankrupting a currency through debasement. It appears there might be some limits in the costs of even paper.

EJ (Oops. Here's the NYT article on counterfeiting...) ID#85100:
Copyright � 2000 EJ/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Sssssh. Don't tell anyone I posted it. My favorite line:

"Bolanos, who has been hunting counterfeiters in Colombia for two decades, attributes this in part to the country's weak laws. The maximum penalty for a conviction is six years in prison, but under the Colombian penal code, any sentence up to six years can be exchanged for a cash fine."
-EJ

Drawing an envelope from an inside pocket of his leather jacket, Fabio slides out a
fresh $100 note and, clasping it gingerly between thumb and forefinger, holds it up to
the bare bulb. "It's a good one," he says. "High quality." He hands it to his friend, a
cocaine-and-arms dealer, who turns it over in his fingers and nods. We are in a house in north
Bogot�, the capital of Colombia, which is the principal source of counterfeit bills in the United
States. After a series of negotiations that led me downward through Bogota's underworld, I
was introduced to Fabio, who agreed to explain to me the process of counterfeiting and the
business choices counterfeiters make.

During the late 1970's and early 1980's, Fabio, who requested his last name not be used for
this article, counterfeited U.S. dollars and other currency in the back room of an apartment in
Bogota. While he was by no means the biggest player in the industry, he estimates that over
the course of seven years he flooded the world market with low-to-mid-quality fake bills that
had a face value of more than $100 million. He now works as a middleman in the counterfeit
distribution industry, a chain of commerce that leads from the barrios of Bogot�, Cali and
Medellin to the streets of New York, Newark, Miami, Buenos Aires, Tokyo, London and
Madrid.

The first thing Fabio tells me is that, of course, the excellence of the finished product depends
on a combination of skill and costs, as with any manufacturing enterprise, and the first
spending decision a counterfeiter has to make concerns paper. The base paper of choice
among counterfeiters is the $1 note. Through a bleaching process, the bill is washed of its
ink, so that what remains is blank U.S. Treasury paper -- the perfect texture and weight, the
correctly colored microfibers embedded in the paper, everything but the paltry denomination.

Fabio studies his $100 note, which he picked up on the city streets earlier in the day, and
guesses it came from the greater Cali area in southwestern Colombia, where the best dollar
workshops are located. Its makers made a critical cost-cutting decision, he says. They chose
to use Venezuelan bol'var notes, a paper with decent texture and durability, rather than $1
bills.

It's a significant cost-saving measure, since a 10 bolivar
note is worth about 1.5 cents. Multiply this by 20,000
bills -- the size of a standard shipment -- and the
counterfeiter has already saved himself $19,700 when
compared with a run built on $1 notes. ( Though a $1 bill doesn't always cost $1; a
drug-trafficking cartel recently found itself with too many $1 bills on its hands and was
unloading the notes for 70 cents each. ) Fabio estimates that the $100 fake in his hand cost
somewhere between $2 and $2.50 to make and would fetch at most about $17 in Colombia.
Final sale price, after the bill had been smuggled into the United States, might be between $35
and $40. Had the same crew used a $1 bill or illegally obtained currency paper, and had they
employed the same level of workmanship and detail, the note would cost about $3 or more to
make but would be sold in Colombia for as much as $22 and in the United States for $50.
The shoddiest bills Fabio has come across had a top price in Colombia of only a few bucks
and probably never even left the country. "Cardboard," he scoffs.

abio comes from a criminal subculture with a rich and very productive tradition. Of the
$52.7 million in fake currency seized during raids or recovered from circulation in the
United States during 1999, a remarkable 34 percent was identified as
Colombian-made. During the same period, Colombian investigative agencies, with the
cooperation of the U.S. Secret Service, shut down 16 factories in Colombia and seized $16
million in false U.S. currency.

"The Colombian counterfeiter has great ability," observes Lt. Col. Eduardo Bolanos, chief of
the economic-patrimony crimes division of Colombia's national investigative police force.
"Colombian criminals are world specialists in assassination, cocaine and falsification."
Bolanos, who has been hunting counterfeiters in Colombia for two decades, attributes this in
part to the country's weak laws. The maximum penalty for a conviction is six years in prison,
but under the Colombian penal code, any sentence up to six years can be exchanged for a
cash fine. A recent change in the criminal code, which goes into effect next year, will make
counterfeiting a crime eligible for a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison, closer to the
15-year maximum in the United States. While the law-enforcement community is optimistic
that the change will hinder the counterfeiting industry, Fabio isn't convinced. "A quien le
gusta, le sabe," he says, an expression from his home state of Caldas that roughly translates
as "To each his own."

According to Bola--os, an entire industry of falsification has
arisen in Colombia during the past 30 years. "It's a culture
of counterfeit," he says. "Clothes, videos, CD's, drugs,
household products, the most up-to-date dolls, Pokemon,
stuff like that. They're even taking fake Levi's blue jeans to
the States and selling them." In the mid-1980's, Colombian
counterfeiting also developed a symbiotic relationship with
the cocaine trade. In one arrangement, Bola--os says, the Cali drug cartel used false dollars to
buy coca base from easily duped indigenous coca growers in Bolivia and Peru. The demand
for dollars to buy base stimulated the growth of the Cali workshops, and Cali remains the
source of some of the finest fakes in the world.

That said, in most cases, a small group of associates -- three or four people, perhaps -- operate
independently and may do business with larger criminal cartels. That was Fabio's
arrangement. He began his counterfeiting career in 1970, peddling small quantities of dollars
on the street. Eventually he moved into production with three friends, one of whom operated a
small offset print shop out of his home in a working-class neighborhood in Bogota. The shop
ran as a legal business by day, "producing fliers, stickers, funeral announcements, that sort of
thing," Fabio says. At night it became a money factory.

In this age of high-tech computers, digital scanners and commercial-quality film processors,
Colombia's counterfeiters still use old-fashioned mechanical methods to churn out their notes.
Both Fabio and his drug-trafficking colleague say they know of no one producing counterfeit
money in Colombia with technology more modern than offset machines. The process is this:
a counterfeiter first creates actual-size photographic negatives of a note's front and back, then
cleans up each negative with a jeweler's precision. The images on the negatives are burned
onto a series of photosensitized aluminum plates, with each plate showing different details
from the bill. Then the plates are run through the offset printing press, so that one set of
details is layered on top of another. No matter how high-quality the paper is, the finished
product will amount to nothing if the photographic negative is shoddy.

Smaller operations generally contract out the making
of the negatives and plates. Today, Fabio says, a
contracted set of negatives can cost anywhere from
$750 to $2,000, depending on quality and quantity,
and the plates cost another $500 to $1,500. Only the
larger operations that control production as well as
distribution have the money for the equipment to make
negatives. The better the equipment, of course, the
better the result.

As for the offset presses, Fabio's team employed a
midcentury, American-made machine. Most
Colombian counterfeiters, law-enforcement officials
say, use archaic castoff machines from the United
States that have been retooled in Colombia after a life of legal use in the States. Some
top-of-the-line machines cost more than $100,000, but Fabio says he has commonly seen
machines that cost about half that. According to anticorruption investigators, they most often
come across machines worth only a few thousand dollars each, though they say that the
declining number of old offset machines on the market has inflated their price.

Part of the reason that counterfeiters have been slow to modernize, says Col. Miguel Evan
Cure, a top anticounterfeiting investigator for Colombia's Administrative Department of
Security ( D.A.S. ) , is that over many years they have developed a complex skill. "They're
artisans," Cure says with undisguised respect. Jim Mackin, a spokesman for the Secret
Service in Washington, agrees that the best fakes come from offset machines, not computers.
"Genuine currency is printed, not scanned or duplicated," he says. "Real plates are used in the
manufacturing of real currency."

There is also the matter of cost. High-quality computerized equipment that would allow
production of near-perfect offset-ready film might cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Nonetheless, the use of computers and scanners to produce fakes is spreading rapidly in the
United States. Forty-six percent of all fake bills seized or passed in the United States were
produced through computer or inkjet processes, says Mackin, up from just 1 percent five
years ago. To date, only one unfortunate fellow in Colombia has been caught counterfeiting
with a computer and scanner. Says an official at the United States Embassy in Bogota, "His
downfall was that he was using a counterfeit bill to make other counterfeit bills."

ith the heavy tools in place -- plus top-grade paper cutters, electronic money
counters, communication equipment ( mostly pagers and cell phones ) and guns
and ammunition for protection -- the rest of the process depends on patience and
precision. Fabio says it might take several weeks for a team to develop a good shipment of
bills. "You can lose a lot of paper at the start as you try to get everything right," he says.
"After that, it's like making bread rolls."

But there still remain important spending decisions to be made along the way. Fabio points
out the security strip running through the $100 bill in his hand, the fiber that reads "USA 100
USA 100 USA 100" along its length. While most counterfeiters use a light print to give the
impression of a strip, others will laboriously thread a material in between the two thin sheets
that are used to make up the bill. The job of making those strips is almost always contracted
out, he says. He knows of only one artisan in Colombia, a very busy "miniaturist," who does
that work. A set of 100 decent strips can cost about $40, though the cheapest are made of
similar material to the plastic tear strip found on a cigarette-box wrapper. "The guy who
doesn't include that security strip won't get anywhere," Fabio cautions.

Inks, too, range in price and, like everything else, are for sale on the black market. According
to lithograph printmasters, the basic inks sell for $15 per kilogram of powder. But those can
smear easily, Fabio says, so better counterfeiters prefer to splurge for special magnetic and
security inks that approximate those used by federal printers. On the black market they sell
for upward of $750 per kilo, enough for 500,000 bills. ( Antifraud authorities couldn't confirm
that price, and several legal lithograph professionals winced at it in doubt. ) Fabio also says
that there is now a special ink on the black market that gives the numbers in the corners of the
new-

series bills a shiny, now-it's-green-now-it's-black effect, which counterfeiters normally achieve
by dumping metal shavings or a metallic powder into ordinary ink.

The so-called optically variable ink was one of several design and security features that made
their debut in 1996, when the United States Treasury began to issue new, higher-security
notes. Other changes included the larger, slightly off-center portrait, a watermark and new
microprinting details. "The U.S. has had to make changes to its currency because, well, we
Colombians are total geniuses," exclaims Martha Muriel, spokeswoman for the D.A.S. When
I ask Fabio whether he thinks the new features have impeded production of fake dollars, an
impish grin flicks across his face. "If today they make a new one in the United States," he
confides, "the day after tomorrow it'll be ready here."

Ready, perhaps, but not perfect. As they did with the security strip and the ink, counterfeiters
have conjured approximations of the security devices in the absence of the real materials and
techniques. A good watermark, for instance, continues to evade counterfeiters, since real
watermarks are integrated into the bill during the papermaking process. The best
counterfeiters can do is apply a pseudo-watermark by making a light print of the image on the
bill.

The most difficult details to duplicate are the microprinting, fine-line printing patterns and the
U.S. Treasury seal. "The Treasury seal is usually the big giveaway," says Patrick Convery of
the counterfeiting division of the Secret Service in Washington. "It won't have sharpness, or
sometimes the pointy ends will be jagged. The stars in the center won't appear to be stars;
they'll just be dots." To reproduce those details with precision, the best counterfeiters often
enlarge the photographic negatives of the bill to several times their normal size and spend
hours touching up the lines.

On close examination, Fabio's $100 bill is less astounding. The Treasury seal looks passable
when placed alongside a real bill, but the green is a bit darker than it should be and the cables
on the scale are frayed. The microscopically thin lines behind Benjamin Franklin's portrait
and etched in the sky above Independence Hall are even but broken in several places. The
words "The United States of America" printed on Franklin's lapel look perfect, but the
microprinting -- USA 100" -- printed repeatedly within the numeral 100 on the portrait side
of the bill -- is blurry. Also, the watermark doesn't have the strong presence of a real one; the
delicate grace is gone from the calligraphic lines bordering the top and the bottom, and the
green color of Independence Hall lacks its usual tonal depth.

Still, there's no question the bill would have duped me and many other people, particularly
Americans who, according to the Secret Service, inspect their currency far less closely than do
foreigners who trade in dollars.

Fabio holds up the bogus note and tilts it back and forth beneath the light. The numeral 100
in the corner shimmers green, black, green, black. "That's really good," he says admiringly,
and smiles at the beauty of it.

Oilman (10/16/00; 08:47:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 39139)
ZENIDEA - 39131
You may like to check the South African Rand as well. It is also hitting new lows against the US dollar, which should be good for the profits of the gold mines.

Oilman (10/16/00; 08:40:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 39138)
SteveH - 39134
A notional value of all bank-held derivatives of $39 trillion is by any means impressive. The actual value-at- risk (VAR) should, however, be lower, as there should be considerable offset in the derivatives held. The situation is complicated by the fact that in times of stress (read: market crash), the volatility and liquidity parameters on which the VAR calculation is based, tend to work against the risk assessment. Typically, the VAR will be under-estimated in a crisis situation. What is fascinating, is that never before in the world's financial markets has there been such a large derivatives market relative to the underlying markets. Furthermore, it should be born in mind that not everyone loses in a crash situation. If the player is astute enough, and maybe just plain lucky, he can gain out of a market crash!

REVELATION (10/16/00; 08:40:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 39137)
MIDAS MILLIGAN
O.K. then, when do you expect this market/dollar
meltdown to begin ? For how long and what will
be the price of GOLD ? Also, do you have any
timing models of when to exit ? Are you sure
the events above will indeed happen or how
would you rate this in percentages of this happening ?

Thank You

Midas Mulligan (10/16/00; 08:17:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 39136)
Response to aunuggets and Revelation
I expect a market and thus dollar meltdown, but it'll just shift dollars and purchasing power from those who now own paper stocks, bonds, etc..to those who own gold. Gold will ABSORB all the excess fiat paper as it's price soars and thus keep the economic system from the doom and gloom 20's Germany and 30's America scenario. Also, I think your forgetting that most of those who own gold are capitalists, so when gold rises they will rise to power and be able to remove all the govt controls on the economy ("The Era of Big Govt is over") that suppress and stifle thought, production and economic growth, or to quote John Galt at the end of Atlas Shrugged, "The road is cleared". That means output of goods and services will soar as those who own gold sell their gold at it's peak to the public and then invest their dollars in the economy, incluing stocks, bonds,etc at their low. So that's why there is no need to worry about paper gold vs physical gold. Those who own gold "are prepared" to borrow from the boy scout motto.

ET (10/16/00; 07:56:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 39135)
Peter, Strad, 714

Hey all - thought I would add a bit concerning the AIDS 'crisis'. These diseases, AIDS, cancer, etc. are for the most part avoidable given simple lifestyle/dietary changes. This has been known for over a century and practiced by the Natural Hygiene advocates. For some background read Harvey Diamond's series "Fit For Life" which includes a new book just out this year.

Diamond argues that the medical treatment industry has a vested interest in not curing medical maladies but prescribing drugs instead. He further claims that some food industry participants are less than truthful concerning their products. Essentially, Diamond claims what you eat and how you eat it are what make you sick. Your body will naturally keep itself healed if it is not overwhelmed with toxins introduced through a poor diet. Diamond claims you can live virtually disease free your entire life and live a much longer life as a result.

In health as in other aspects of life, if you want to understand the problem, follow the money. Disease is a big business.

SteveH (10/16/00; 05:48:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 39134)
Repost
www.kitco.com
repost:

Date: Mon Oct 16 2000 05:13
SlangKing (CyclePro) ID#293152:
Copyright � 2000 SlangKing/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
Bank Derivatives: The 2nd Quarterly Report of the Bank Derivatives Fact Sheet from the U.S. Treasury Office of the Comptroller of the Currency ( OCC ) , has been released. The notional value of all bank-held derivatives is over the $39 Trillion mark. While it is true that this total amount is not exposed outright by U.S. banks, however it must be recognized that systemic and credit risk is entirely feasible since many of the derivative possitions are in illiquid OTC swaps and options. The extent of this risk is debatable. But if you look at the two most outragous individual bank examples: Chase Manhattan Bank and J.P.Morgan, you must ask yourself what level of risk is possible. For example, the total notional derivatives on the books of Chase Manhattan is almost $14 Trillion while bank assets are only $320 Billion, J.P.Morgan has booked $9.5 Trillion derivatives with bank assets of only $174 Billion. With asset to derivative ratios of only 2.3% and 1.8% respectively, one must ponder the question... is it possible in a significant market reaction ( stocks, interest rates, or currencies ) for these bank's counterparties to default on 2.3% or 1.8% of their derivative value? If so, it would completely wipe out each bank's assets. If 2% is deemed too extreme and a lesser counterparty default loss is more appropriate, then envision what would happen if only a 1/2% loss is achieved, this would wipe out 25% of each bank's assets. This alone could be enough to spark a run on the banks, Federal Reserve bailouts, and certainly a panic-effect carrying over to the value of the U.S. Dollar, Bond and Interest Rate markets, Stocks, Gold, and many other commodities.

http://www.geocities.com/~CyclePro/Charts/SP500/Outlook.htm

shame, he says he's giving it up soon

Canuck (10/16/00; 04:40:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 39133)
@ Steve H.
I apologize for the confusion Friday night. I must be more careful; it leads to rumours.

The 'quote' I submitted was an example of a press release TO BE if the introvention continues as in the actual goings on in Taiwan.

My post was unclear, sorry that I mislead you.

JustamereBear picked up on thinking in his response in message #38988 (Saturday morning, Oct.14th).

Canuck.

Zenidea (10/16/00; 04:02:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 39132)
Just a we note
Gata is great !, always on the ball, but at the Kiki table
one thing in the " Has the Australian Government joined the Exclusive club ?" document; one paragraph sticks out not quite correct . i.e that says in essence the government has been hamstrung by the opposition ( Labour ), and the Democrats .
In Aussie one has a thing called Hansard , a registered
tape come transcript of all that has been said by all parties whilst in power and opposition. In House !. to which the public whom may be interested are privey to watch this said as it happens on TV . A freeedom huh ?.
I venture to suggest that after visualy seeing Hansard and reading the transcripts , one might easily call the opposition hypocrites for opposing that which they intended to do in the first place , Flog off to the people that which we already possess as this govt is doing .
The reality is that the public are pissed off at privateization , saying in essence " why are you trying to sell us something that we already own ?".
Its the old game of Duelopoly ...... good cop, bad cop
just as in the movies . Never before have I seen so many angry politicians as a result of a mere demonstration in the recent past as of university students chanting the slogan "Liberal /labour no choice !" The common Sheeple believe what they read here in the media unfortunately ,
but times are a changing :).
Some however , dont belive a dam thing that has been said by the polly until it has been proven or disbelieve anything that has been said by a polly until it has been disproven and reap rewards from the impartiality of it.
One thing I percieve may well be for sure , they are not fools as the media might have the majority believe.

Zenidea (10/16/00; 03:21:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 39131)
How fortunate this unfortunate news is.

Dollar breaks two more record lows
From AAP
16oct00

17:39 (AEDT) THE dollar
continued to take a battering
today, posting its second
record low of the day in late
afternoon trading.

Traders said the local currency
recorded a new low of
$US0.5255 around 1655 AEDT.
In morning trade it hit a low of
$US0.5260.

At 1700 AEDT the local unit
had recovered slightly to be
trading at $US0.5260/65, from
0.5303/08 at Friday's close.

Citibank Australia head of
foreign exchange trading Nick
Waite said continuing selling
pressure from both local and
offshore players and the euro's
struggle to rally from its lows
drove the local currency to its
new lows.

"There has been a large
amount of Japanese selling of
Aussie/yen that has also
helped it down," Mr Waite said.

"I think the concern down here
has to be that if the euro
manages to rally the Australian
dollar might follow suit, I don't
think too many people would
want to be short Australian
dollars down at these levels."

At 1700 AEDT the local unit was also at 56.86/94 yen from 57.04/11
at Friday's close, 0.6164/69 euro from 0.6146/51 and at 0.3623/29
British pounds from 0.3607/13.

It closed at 1.3210/40 New Zealand dollars, from 1.3237/66 at
Friday's local close.

Traders noted some options positions set at 52.50 US cents which
are to expire in New York trading tonight could weaken the dollar
further although it is likely to keep some support at current levels.

"It could test lower (than 52.50 US cents) but I would be very
surprised if it did," Mr Waite said, adding that the local unit would
probably trade in a 52.50-53.10 US cent range tonight.

The euro could also lend further support.

"I don't think early Europe is going to be selling the euro aggressively
down here and that could lend support to the Australian dollar," Mr
Waite said.

Locally, at the end of the local session the euro was at
$US0.8538/43 from $US0.8626/31 at Friday's close and at 92.26/31
yen from 92.78/83.

The US dollar closed at 108.04/09 yen from 107.55/60.

On the Reserve Bank of Australia's Trade Weighted Index at 1600
AEDT the dollar was steady with Friday's close at 49.0 points.

justamereBear (10/16/00; 03:06:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 39130)
714 re post 31928

Good advice. Harder to do than say. (smile)

SteveH (10/16/00; 02:09:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 39129)
I don't see any magic here, although... (RossL, check it out)
http://www.sharelynx.net/Charts/Dow-Oil-Ratio.gif
(oil v dow chart)

...there is a noticeable plunge in oil in 1985 and that seems to earmark (on the chart) a more dramatic rise in the DOW. Then gradually and more from 1996, the DOW and oil rise together. Interestingly, that is the same time oil separates from gold's tracks.

I also see three tops on the DOW in the last few years (a triple top).

714 (10/16/00; 01:51:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 39128)
Just don't go overboard, justamereBear
As my father used to say, "Moderation in all things."

714 (10/16/00; 01:31:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 39127)
Whoops, try this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/medical_notes/newsid_413000/413496.stm

714 (10/16/00; 01:30:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 39126)
re: AIDS
This turned up on BBC's website this morning:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/medical_notes/newsid_413000/413496.stm

HIV apparently can be traced back to 1959. In the 80's, I recall a newspaper article about a St. Louis boy who died sometime in the 60's from a mysterious ailment, and from which the MD had saved a tissue sample. He subsequently tested it in the 80's and turned up AIDS/HIV. Fwiw.

Strad Master (10/16/00; 01:19:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 39125)
I take it back...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=s_sf_b_as/102-9759955-9516105
After posting I went over to Amazon to check on the Duesberg book and found that it is still readily available. Good!

Strad Master (10/16/00; 01:16:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 39124)
For Peter Asher and others interested in the subject
http://www.duesberg.com/
Iatrogenic AIDS deaths caused by AZT is relatively old news, having been put forth as early as 1995 by Dr. Peter Duesberg. His seminal book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" came out in 1996 and almost immediately disappeared off the shelves since its message was so "politically incorrect". Nevertheless, the scholarship backing his views is impeccable and his arguments are certainly medically and scientifically compelling. Anyone with an open mind on the subject ought to get ahold of a copy, although I don't know if that's possible or not. Having gotten stuck today trying to cross to the other side of Hollywood through tha annual "AIDS Walk", this is a topic fresh in my mind. While AIDS is certainly a tragic illness, the greater tragedy is that its politicization has directly resulted in so much unnecessary suffering and death. Beyond that I wonder, when I see so many people out on a long trek to support AIDS research, how many of them might expend the same energy marching in support of flu research. The flu, after all, kills more people every year in the US than does AIDS.

justamereBear (10/16/00; 01:10:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 39123)
714 ji nickel62 replies

**714 post 39102 Germany
Many thanks for the personal data.
Obviously I see a worse future than many here at the forum, and I have been gathering as much information as I can. I also have some insurance in place (to top up my holdings) that I suspect I will only be able to collect in fiat. (but not be able to convert to physical) Alternative mediums then become important, and having alternatives in mind seems a smart thing to think about.

I have made good headway in sources of supply, and storage of flour and sugar, some limited headway on tobacco, and none in chocolate, which I had better get on to.

Thanks for your input

** ji 39100 Tile
I guess I'm getting a bit senile, because once you posted, I recalled that definition.

This was in regard a court judgement, about a case in which some land was sold in the south during the US civil war, which had a mortgage payable in dollars. After the war ended, the dispute arose as to whether the remaining balance was payable in the now worthless Confederate dollars, or in the valuable Union dollars.

The court, in its judgement wrote that,..... "in TILE circumstances", the amount was payable in Union dollars. As I said at first I thought it was a typo, but it was repeated, so I began to wonder.
All said, I don't see how that might fit, altho you never know.

Thanks for the info.

** Nickel 62 39080
I keep forgetting I am a plan for the worst, and hope for the best, kind of guy, and much of the world isn't. Moreover, I often get carried away with it. As I said above, I feel this situation has the potential to be much worse than many people who were not alive in the thirties can conceive.

Personally, I think that a "get your gun and guard your stash" scenerio is not very workable, but I have run across many who do.

If I am standing on a railway track, and see a train roaring down on me, if I manage to get off the track even 2 seconds before the train arrives, I am safe.

I am also experienced enough (read old) to be mindful of the adage that anything that can go wrong, will. I hope to use information to get me off the railway track should a train come.

elevator guy (10/16/00; 00:38:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 39122)
Hello, everyone...
I've been too busy to post, but stop in to read now and then. I sure appreciate all the great thoughts in here...

Many posters are obsessed with the collapse of the dollar. And if the dollar goes south, they may well be able to trade their gold for goods and services in the chaos that will ensue.

The posts of the "dollar doomers" hoover about the cyber landscape, like vultures circling the sky, waiting for the death of the living.

But what will life be like, if the dollar has to finally face the music? AND/Or if OPEC accepts Euros?

All transportation will be exhorbitant, and all goods and services associated with transport. (gee, thats about everything!)

All little refinements of our culture will be swept away, and only the lucky ones will have solace in their underground bunkers.

Yikes!! Hold the phone! Thats not what I want for the United States! (apologies to the world at large)

Lets not pray for the collapse of the Federal Reserve Note just yet. Because if it undergoes a major devaluation, our lifestyles will change drastically.

Maybe we should labor for a system where the paper currency is less variable, and try to salvage the extant financial infrastructure.

Naww!

gidsek (10/16/00; 00:36:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 39121)
megatron ... Javaman
I did see a post about the intervention in the Taiwanese market on another forum. Someone had cut/pasted it and added an addendum about Greenspan buying futures and neglected to make clear the point at which the news story ended and the fiction began.

This is other than the Crudele article.

gidsek

Peter Asher (10/16/00; 00:29:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 39120)
J-bear, Cavan Man, ClintH:
Subject line left out below

Peter Asher (10/16/00; 00:28:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 39119)
(No Subject)

I haven't abandoned the AIDS history post, just got into too much background and was barely started after 2 pages. Need to start over and t's tricky to tell it without getting R-rated. Then today was a three generation, all-hands home improvement workout. I'm still reading today's posts.

Strangely enough, just now the following was received. As Robin is the editor for "Non-toxic living" on the ODP search engine, the author sent this to her.

----- Original Message -----
From: Marvin R. Kitzerow Jr. <marvin_r_kitzerow@yahoo.com>
To: Robin Asher <info@peterasher.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 8:31 AM
Subject: ODP Feedback - Alternative AIDS treatment

> You will find the answer for the optimal care in reversing all AIDS
indicator illnesses and thus the panacea for curing AIDS at:
<aidsindictment.com> There are thousands of HIV positive persons surviving
AIDS, that date back to the alleged origin of AIDS in 1981, by practicing a
lifestyle similar to the protocol as outlined in "The AIDS INDICTMENT"!
>
> In the book you will read why I refer to the AIDS epidemic as "THE MOST
COLOSSAL, DIABOLIC MEDICAL BLUNDER OF ALL TIME" and that the over 450,000
U.S. AIDS mortality victims died of iatrogenic poisoning by their
physicians
and not their HIV status!
>
> You will read that aggressive compulsion to treat persons suffering only
with immune dysfunction with a criminally, fraudulently licensed drug that
was not fit for human consunption, is the primary cause of death in all of
the patients who were treated with this drug. The drug that has been forced
on to nearly 100% of the persons who tested positive only to antibodies and
not a virus (HIV), since 1987, is Zidovudine AZT which is actually
pharmaceutical genocide!
>
> There are over 40,000 HIV positive persons who have been surviving AIDS
over 16 years by refusing all of the traditional treatments of choice with
chemotherapy or alledged anti-viral drugs. It is so blatantly obvious that
the AIDS patients who have died, died of their medical treatments and not
HIV.
>
> Read "The AIDS INDICTMENT"
>
> Marvin R. Kitzerow
>

REVELATION (10/16/00; 00:16:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 39118)
JOURNEYMAN
****EXACTLY****

The public is seeing a mirage in relation to the price
of GOLD.

714 (10/16/00; 00:00:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 39117)
Journeyman
Lots of luck!

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