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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 10/16/1999 All times are U.S. Mountain Time View Yesterday's Discussion. HopeingII (10/16/99; 23:55:31MDT - Msg ID:16627) October 22 *>>>>------ $ 324.75 --------+> I estimate this closing price on October 22 for the following reasons.1) I believe there truly is a huge short position in paper Gold.2) I believe that many that are short think they can continue doing what they have been doing for the past two or three years and drive the POG down to the point where they can cover without sustaining large losses.3) I believe that as we get ever closer to January 1st 2000 the demand for Gold will continue to grow and there will be more and more buyers entering the market.4) I believe that these two opposing camps will result in a modest increase (approximately $10.00) by the end of next week. TEX (10/16/99; 23:51:25MDT - Msg ID:16626) Tossin My Hat Into The Ring >>>>>>>>>>>.........356.00.........>>>>>>>>>>!OK, I'm tossin my hat into the ring. As far as how I came up with that figure..........Its a flat out blind guess! I have no idea as to what I am doing. Odds are....and with that kind of attitude.....I'll win!Adios Amigos and see you in the winner's circle! ET (10/16/99; 23:37:12MDT - Msg ID:16625) Y2k - continued Implications Public Response. Public behavior in both the runup to 1 January and in response to Y2K-generated failures, whether real or perceived, will vary widely and could have significant economic and political implications. In developing countries, populations have minimal access to Y2K-vulnerable public services, and those who do are accustomed to frequent breakdowns. But countries with crowded urban populations could experience significant unrest if outages are prolonged. The reactions of urban populations in developed countries are harder to gauge. Because of widespread media attention and high public awareness of the issue, we expect that the risks of panic—before and after the date rollover—are higher than in countries with lower interest in Y2K. Possible risks include hoarding, heavy bank withdrawals, safehavening financial assets, and purchases of guns and other equipment to ensure personal safety. Public reactions will depend to a great extent on how the media represents the issue. Inaccurate reporting or hyping minor inconveniences could stimulate disruptive public behavior. We judge the threat of Y2K-inspired social unrest in developed countries to be low, but protracted delays in resolving problems with basic services, especially banks and utilities, could provoke demonstrations. Malevolent Actors. The extensive publicity surrounding the Y2K phenomenon and the millennium, the increased vulnerability of critical infrastructures, and the resultant potential for disruptions in services could invite state and nonstate actors, including mischief-makers, to conduct attacks against the United States or US interests abroad, or against other perceived adversaries. Humanitarian Crises. Y2K-related malfunctions have the potential to cause or exacerbate humanitarian crises through prolonged outages of power and heat, breakdowns in urban water supplies, food shortages, degraded medical services, and environmental disasters resulting from failures in safety controls. Russia, Ukraine, China, Eastern Europe, Egypt, India, and Indonesia are especially vulnerable, due to their poor Y2K preparations and, in some cases, the difficulty of coping with breakdowns in critical services in the middle of winter. We are also concerned that Y2K failures in chemical plants—which are often located in urban areas—could result in environmental degradation and hazards to the nearby population. Even the poorest countries rely on essential services that are computerized to some extent, such as power, telecommunications, food and fuel distribution, and medical care. Remediation work in these sectors, however, has proceeded slowly. Few governments outside the West would be capable of managing widespread humanitarian needs should they arise from a breakdown of basic infrastructure in their countries, especially in urban areas. Although many have systems experienced in delivering medical and social services following natural disasters, Y2K failures present a more complex challenge because of the potential for multiple and simultaneous "disasters" within specific countries and around the world, taxing the ability of international organizations to help. Y2K failures in necessary emergency communications systems and in needed medical and social services would compound difficulties mobilizing emergency responses. Some foreign governments and businesses will look to the United States and its better prepared infrastructure to overcome Y2K problems abroad. We expect to see "safehavening" of financial assets, routing traffic through US computer and telecommunications networks to avoid local bottlenecks, using US transportation facilities to move international trade, and calls on the US military to intervene in humanitarian crises. Challenges for Intelligence Y2K is a particularly challenging issue for analysis because of the uneven understanding around the world of the vulnerabilities of computer hardware and software, the unpredictability of cascading failures among interconnected systems, and the self-interest at all levels in either overstating or minimizing Y2K preparedness. We have seen in recent months an increasing number of statements by countries and commercial enterprises that they are now prepared for Y2K, and we expect to see more such claims in the remaining three months of the year. While progress has certainly been made on many fronts since I testified to this Committee in March, not all of these readiness claims are credible, and it is a challenge for us to sort out the truth. Commercial enterprises marketing Y2K remediation services and governments soliciting external assistance have an incentive to overstate the Y2K problem. At the same time, fear of stimulating panic, sensitivity about disclosing security vulnerabilities, and concerns about legal liability are incentives to downplay the risks of Y2K failures. In some cases, our uncertainty about Y2K preparations in a country or sector has led us to conclude that there is an increased risk of failures. For example, in open societies with high popular interest in Y2K issues, a paucity of information about efforts to prepare public services is likely to indicate that authorities have paid insufficient attention to potential problems. Y2K has a unique capacity to produce multiple, simultaneous crises. Its probable impact, however, is difficult to assess. We have an uneven understanding about global and national infrastructures, and the reactions of decisionmakers and the general public in a Y2K-stressed environment are also uncertain. Furthermore, the impact of Y2K failures will depend, to some extent, on the context in which failures occur. While manageable under normal circumstances, some outages and breakdowns would assume much greater significance in the event of heightened political tensions, severe weather conditions, or an ongoing humanitarian emergency. The Intelligence Community continues to work closely with key policy consumers to ensure that policy makers are kept informed of our best assessment of foreign Y2K developments between now and year's end. ET (10/16/99; 23:35:25MDT - Msg ID:16624) Y2k http://www.odci.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/pr101399.html NIO for Science and Technology Statement October 13, 1999 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement for the Record Senate Special Committee on the Year 2000 Technology Problem Foreign Preparedness for Y2K Lawrence K. Gershwin National Intelligence Officer for Science and Technology Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee, I am pleased to have the opportunity to provide the Committee with the Intelligence Community's latest assessment of the status of foreign preparedness for Y2K. We recently published a comprehensive, classified National Intelligence Estimate on foreign Y2K efforts, and we are continuing to focus on this evolving issue to ensure that policy makers are as prepared as possible for the potential consequences for the US and our allies of international Y2K failures. This assessment is essentially a "snapshot" of the current state of international preparedness for Y2K. As countries continue their remediation, testing, and contingency planning activities, and as we get more information, some of our observations will change. Efforts to address potential problems vary widely both among and within individual countries. For example, the United Kingdom has a highly successful government awareness campaign which has spurred industry, commerce and government agencies to take steps to correct Y2K problems. At the other end of the spectrum, when Indonesia's national electricity board was recently asked by an Indonesian newspaper about its Y2K preparedness, they replied that they can observe what happens at midnight 1999 in Western Samoa, New Zealand and Australia, and still have six hours to make plans. * The quality of corrective work varies greatly among countries and sectors and, in some cases, remediation work introduces new flaws that go undetected due to limited or faulty testing. Moreover, time for effective corrective action is running out. Even if remediation work has taken place, there may be insufficient time left for testing, identifying problems that emerge, and follow-up remediation. Industry experts believe, in many cases, effective testing can take two to three times as long as remediation. The availability of funding and technical expertise in foreign countries to analyze vulnerabilities and carry out remediation and testing will continue to be a major impediment. The public and private sectors will increasingly focus on contingency planning for coping with the impact of Y2K failures after 1 January and prioritizing repairs. Where effective prevention action has been taken in advance of 1 January, disruptions will likely be random, temporary, and of localized impact. In the absence of effective remediation and contingency plans, Y2K-related problems could cause widespread, possibly prolonged disruptions in vital services that could have serious humanitarian and economic consequences. Y2K failures will occur before and as the date rollover approaches, peaking on 1 January and persisting well beyond that. In some countries, such as Russia, it will likely take a significant amount of time to overcome Y2K failures. Russia, Ukraine, China and Indonesia are among the countries most likely to experience significant Y2K-related failures. Countries in Western Europe are generally better prepared, although we see the chance of some significant failures in countries such as Italy. Major economic powers such as Germany and Japan are making great strides in Y2K remediation, but their late start and the magnitude of the effort suggest that even these countries are at risk of some failures. Canada, the UK, Australia, Singapore, and Hong Kong are very well prepared and have a lower chance of experiencing any significant Y2K failures. Regional Overview The Americas. The level of Y2K preparedness varies widely among foreign countries in the Americas and even among sectors within individual countries; Canada—working closely with the United States on sectors where national interests are highly integrated such as electrical power—emerges as the best prepared. Most national governments in Latin America have established commissions to coordinate preparations within the public sector and to increase general awareness, but efforts in many cases are late, underfunded, and weakly enforced. Some disruptions of basic public services—including utilities, telecommunications, public health, and social welfare—are likely throughout the region, but we are unable to judge their potential scope or duration. We consider it unlikely that these disruptions will affect domestic stability or US interests in this region. Europe. European countries, with the exception of the United Kingdom, got a late start in assessing, repairing, and planning for contingencies related to the Y2K problem. Nearly all European governments have national Y2K programs in place, and most are working very hard to minimize the significance of Y2K-related problems. However, we are concerned that some have not allotted adequate resources to remediation and testing. Remediation efforts are the most advanced in the finance and telecommunications sectors Russia and Ukraine. Russia and Ukraine are particularly vulnerable to Y2K failures. They got a late start in remediation and lack sufficient resources to identify and correct problems--virtually guaranteeing that the countries will suffer economic and social consequences for some time. Both countries have old capital stock, much of which has not been upgraded since the Soviet era. They are further impeded because of their perception that a limited computer dependence largely "protects" them. Areas of greatest risk are strategic warning and command and control, nuclear power plants, the gas industry, and the electric power grid. Middle East & North Africa. Most countries in the Middle East and North Africa recognize Y2K as a computer hardware and software problem, but started later in dealing with the potential problems with embedded chips and interconnected systems. The oil companies, banking sector, and large multinational companies are best informed and are conducting remediation and testing. Government institutions, small businesses, the health sector, and some public utilities lag because of funding shortfalls, a late start in addressing the problem and, in some cases, a misunderstanding of the nature and scope of Y2K vulnerabilities. Y2K-related failures will occur, especially in public utilities, although we cannot yet judge their scope or duration. Urban areas will be most affected. Africa. With the exception of South Africa, other countries in sub-Saharan Africa were late in recognizing the Y2K problem but are developing preparations to deal with it. Because many Africans—especially in rural areas—expect little from government, interruptions in services are unlikely to spark unrest. Asia-Pacific. Preparations for dealing with Y2K problems across the Asia-Pacific region vary greatly. The Asian countries that rely heavily on advanced technology for power generation, communications, and transportation have had comprehensive Y2K programs under way for some time. Most countries with moderate reliance on computers are aware of potential Y2K problems and have begun assessment and remediation efforts. The sectors with the most advanced programs for dealing with Y2K are banking and finance, civil aviation, and telecommunications. The sectors least prepared, as a general rule, are railroads, ports, medical services, and small- and medium-sized enterprises. Impact on US of Y2K Failures Y2K-related disruptions and failures can affect US interests in three ways: * They may have a direct impact. Some foreign infrastructures and vital sectors are directly linked to those in the United States either physically or through computer networks. * They may have an indirect impact. The United States depends on the uninterrupted flow of many raw materials and finished goods for its economic security and national defense. In addition, diplomatic and military operations depend upon host-nation infrastructure support, including telecommunications and electric power. * They may have broad national security implications. Foreign Y2K-related crises have the potential to involve US military and civilian components in humanitarian relief, environmental disaster recovery, or evacuations. The direct impact on the United States of Y2K-related disruptions and failures in foreign infrastructures will be limited. There are several reasons for this. First of all, Canada, the country to whose infrastructure we are most tightly linked, is well advanced in Y2K remediation and unlikely to export significant problems to the United States. Second, the global payments system is unlikely to experience significant failures, because most of the developed countries appear well prepared in the banking and finance sector. Financial institutions in most emerging markets, however, as well as those in less developed countries, may experience failures because they started the remediation process later and because they are experiencing scarcities of resources and technical expertise. * Even well-prepared institutions, however, will still be impacted if disruptions occur in domestic infrastructures—especially electric power and telecommunications. They are also exposed to Y2K problems in the information systems of their customers, vendors, and smaller banks to whom they are linked. Third, we are highly confident that Y2K failures will not lead to the inadvertent or unauthorized launch of a ballistic missile by any country. If Y2K failures do occur, we are concerned about the potential for Russia to misinterpret early warning data—especially if we were in a period of increased tensions brought on by an international political crisis. Russia and the United States have agreed to establish the Center for Year 2000 Strategic Stability at Peterson Air Force Base, Colorado. The Center will provide a venue for sharing information on missile and space launches collected by US sensors across the year 2000 date change in order to prevent any misunderstandings resulting from Russian early warning failures. Finally, the United States is unlikely to experience a significant disruption in oil deliveries because our key suppliers appear to be Y2K ready. Major multinational firms have been in the forefront of remediation and testing efforts, and operators of oil terminals and tankers have been similarly active in correcting Y2K vulnerabilities. While we probably will not be directly impacted by foreign Y2K failures, breakdowns in foreign infrastructure could impact US interests overseas: our official and military presence overseas, US businesses, and the welfare of countries important to us. Disruptions and failures in telecommunications, electricity generation and transmission, and transportation pose the greatest threat because of their fundamental importance to all other critical services. Sector Overview Telecommunications. Although a high priority for most countries, efforts to remediate Y2K problems in the telecommunications sector in many countries, particularly developing countries, have been hampered by inadequate funding, a shortage of skilled personnel, a late start, and the need for lengthy remediation and testing. We estimate that only a few countries are on target in remediating and testing their telecommunications systems. Networks elsewhere are likely to experience problems ranging from minor inconveniences to serious disruptions. Experts are concerned that minor failures could cascade, causing a network to become degraded over time. * The interconnections among many time-sensitive systems make it more likely that a Y2K problem in one system will cause problems in a system with which it is connected. Problems in telecommunications would also affect other sectors, such as power and national defense. Failure to complete Y2K remediation is likely to result in outages that could affect the United States and foreign countries in significant ways. They could cost telecommunications operators considerable money in lost revenue; affect the operations of government, the financial sector, the military, industry, and the energy sector; and exacerbate regional tensions. Communications disruptions will damage US businesses and official activities that depend on host-government support. Many well known companies that follow Y2K preparations list countries such as Russia, China, and Italy as likely to have telecommunications problems and we have no reason to disagree with these assessments. Some countries—such as Russia—are likely to be so poorly prepared that widespread telecommunications failures will likely occur. Electric Power. Localized blackouts lasting possibly up to a week and regional brownouts of much shorter duration are likely to occur in Russia; however, the city of Moscow is unlikely to experience serious disruptions. In western Europe, some countries are likely to experience localized blackouts; however, a cascading failure throughout the region is highly unlikely. * Each of the different elements of the electric power sector—generation facilities, transmission and distribution networks, telecommunications, protection systems, and consumers—forms a complex interrelationship that could cause a systemwide failure even if there were significant failures in only one element. Some electrical power grids in Europe and Asia—where Y2K remediation has been inconsistent at the national and local levels—are likely to experience outages. Foreign Nuclear Power Plants. Y2K failures affecting nuclear power plants fall into two categories: problems that occur outside the nuclear plant (for example, voltage and frequency fluctuations or the collapse of the electricity grid) or, less likely, problems that occur inside the nuclear plant that affect generation capability. Of these two, the first is by far the more serious because nuclear plants depend on off-site electricity to operate. Loss of off-site power or large fluctuations of voltage frequency on the grid would lead to an automatic shutdown. In the event that a prolonged outage occurs, this would require, among other things, that backup systems supply power to pump coolant through the reactor core for about a week until the reactor is below fuel melting temperatures. Therefore, Y2K problems impacting generation capability in conventional plants can affect nuclear plants by causing frequency or voltage fluctuations leading to a possible collapse of the electrical grid. Similarly, Y2K problems within equipment on the grid itself might cause problems leading to the disconnection and shutdown of nuclear power plants. We judge that those Y2K problems occurring within nuclear power plants probably will pose no direct safety problem because almost all plants have analog, electro-mechanical safety systems that will shut down the reactors if anomalies are detected. Y2K problems in digital non-safety-related systems within the nuclear plants, if they occur, would most likely lead to a reduction in generation capacity or shutdowns. These Y2K-initiated shutdowns presumably could be conducted in a safe manner, but digital systems experiencing Y2K problems could produce false data that would then be displayed to operators, increasing the chance for operator error and, potentially, accidents. Internally-generated Y2K problems that caused a shutdown could also contribute to instability of the electricity grid by removing generation capacity from the grid. Therefore, Y2K problems at one nuclear power plant could contribute to problems at surrounding power plants. Soviet-Designed Reactors. We are most concerned about the safety of Soviet-designed nuclear plants, including Chernobyl-type reactors in Russia and Ukraine, due both to inherent design problems of these plants—for example, lack of total containment systems—and to the lack of detailed data on Y2K remediation plans and contingency plans. * Nonetheless, we judge the chance of a nuclear accident on the scale of Chernobyl is extremely low. The combined effects of possible Y2K-generated internal failures and external power problems (loss of offsite power) increase the risk of a nuclear incident, particularly if operators believe they can compensate for Y2K malfunctions or for power supply reductions in the grid by overriding plant safety systems. Similar operator actions led to the accident at Chernobyl. At this late date, remediating and testing all Soviet-designed nuclear power plant systems before yearend is not feasible, particularly given the age of the computer systems and the fact that many of the original manufacturers have gone out of business. However, countries possessing these systems have made significant efforts to identify their Y2K-related problems and are working hard to minimize the effects. Moreover, significant international attention and assistance has been beneficial. The chance of a nuclear incident in Russia, Ukraine, or another state with Soviet-designed reactors during the Y2K rollover is low. It is, however, higher than normal because of the likelihood that the power grid could experience failures, leading to a reliance on emergency power supplies of questionable reliability, because of the possibility that auxiliary generators are inoperable due to maintenance problems or a lack of sufficient fuel, and the potential for erroneous data leading to operator error. In the worst case, this could cause a meltdown and in some cases, an accompanying release of radioactive fission gases causing localized contamination. Gazprom Gas Deliveries. The dependence of Russian and European markets on gas deliveries from Russia's Gazprom is of particular concern. We know that several countries in Europe have extensive facilities to store natural gas and, in some cases, are preparing to increase their stored reserves in anticipation of possible disruptions in gas supplies at yearend. We cannot, however, estimate the sufficiency of these reserves should Gazprom deliveries be reduced due to Y2K failures. This would depend, in part, on the successful operation of the local pipeline distribution system. Locally severe gas shortages may occur in Russia, Ukraine, and in parts of Central and Eastern Europe due to reduced pipeline efficiency resulting from Y2K problems. Western Europe is at less risk due to greater attention to storage, contingency plans, and remediation of other infrastructure on which gas supply depends. Transportation. Y2K problems can emerge in the transportation sector from failures in rail, highway, ports and shipping, and civil aviation services as well as from disruptions in electrical power, telecommunications, and the distribution of fuel. Because transportation systems cross national borders, noncompliance of neighbors can cause interruptions in the systems of compliant countries. Information on the potential impact of Y2K on foreign transport services and facilities has been particularly difficult to acquire, and much of it is still being gathered by international organizations and private groups. Moreover, much of the data is self-reported with little independent analysis. We lack critical details necessary to make confident judgments on problems likely to be encountered in the sector. Commerce. Because of the increasing dependence of the US economy on "just-in-time" distribution systems, interruptions in trade flows are important to us.The lack of Y2K preparations—and even awareness—within small- and medium-sized businesses throughout the world indicates that larger enterprises, which have conscientiously addressed their own Y2K problems, may experience delays and disruptions due to failures in the systems of key business partners. Lack of financial resources and technical skills in many cases is preventing smaller companies from undertaking remediation, and failure to take timely action will put some of them out of business. We are also concerned about possible Y2K-related disruptions in countries planning major tourist events—for example, Italy, Egypt, Brazil, and the Caribbean—should local infrastructures experience significant failures. Other countries may experience a dramatic decline in normal tourist flows—and foreign exchange—because of concerns about Y2K-related disasters. Implications Public Response. Public behavior in both the runup to 1 January and in response to Y2K-generated failures, whether real or perceived, will vary widely and could have significant economic and political implications. In developing countries, populations have minimal access to Y2K-vulnerable public services, and those who do are accustomed to frequent breakdowns. But countries with crowded urban populations could experi ¯Ý °À³A d © DD (10/16/99; 23:34:10MDT - Msg ID:16623) Gentleman, Start Your Engins - It appears we have a contest ------------>>>>>>>>>>$345.01------------>>>>>>>>>>>>>When it comes to understanding charts, support levels and the like, I'm like a fat guy in a wet suit doing a marathon.In other words, I don't look good doing it. In any case, a number of people have said that $345 is the next major support level for gold and that if we break that, we go to the $375+ area. Is this true? I have no idea. But I'd like to test the theory. By the way, would $375+ create any more stress in the old short shorts? Probably not. I understand everyone's short shorts are already covered. Or is that buried? Best, DD Tomcat (10/16/99; 23:13:44MDT - Msg ID:16622) Silver, law, ORO, FOA, TC, MK, Peter A. >>>>>>>------$316-------+>>>>>>My guesstimante is based on my feelings that the shorts are going to get at least another week or two on rollovers. The forward rate is positive (FR= LR-IR) which means those who want their gold back are going to be asked to wait. And what other choice do the have but to wait? Long term I am very bullish on both Au and Ag. Regarding my continuing optimism for Ag. It's not based on a whole lot of data. It's the old street part of me. I figure there will be a period of time when gold will not be available. During that time there will some silver available and there will be some folks who will take silver as a substitute. It will be an emotional time for buyers and they will pay the priec. Just MHO.FOA, your discussion on Ag a day or two ago finally allowed me to get your view on silver. Thanks for that discussion and all the other recent posts.ORO, did I read a post that referred to you writing a book? If so, it would be a great contribution. I would buy many copies.law: Welcome. Tell us more about yourself.TC: Some really great coverage this week. Thanks.MK: Just finished reading "Hitler's Banker". Good read. I was interested in how H. Schact helped Germany beat inflation in 1924. He did it in only 12 months!! By 1926 he had Germany starting to boom again. I am also reading Chernow's House of Morgan. Peter A: Nice to see you back. ORO (10/16/99; 22:41:30MDT - Msg ID:16621) SteveH -Morgan http://home.earthlink.net/~amn/charts.html The last chart should give you a kick if you remember what we were talking of re Morgan. ORO (10/16/99; 22:23:09MDT - Msg ID:16620) Mike55 Golden Truth Since 1969 in one form or another.Since 1937, originally. THX-1138 (10/16/99; 22:14:27MDT - Msg ID:16619) Some people are just so stubborn and hard headed. I have been sending the GATA news articles to a lot of family members. My retired uncles response to the last one I sent (article 256) just makes me shake my head. This is a summary of what he said "I am not sure a gold cartel could do anything. Why should the increase in oil price have anything other than to reduce the price of gold?If oil prices climb it would make sense to own oil stocks especially the big ones that have their own oil fields. I feel once we get past next january that gold will fall back to about $280 per ounce."Guess he is still mesmerized by Wall Street. He told me I should invest in Banks, and perscription drug maker companies. I told him to buy gold, and at one time gold stocks (have since been selling them to get physical). Even told him my thoughts on why the market would fall and why gold would rise. He still doesn't get it.Should I just let him take his beating with or rest of the Sheeple or continue to badger him? Guess that's why I am buying gold, to rescue some of my soon to be poor family members. The Believer (10/16/99; 21:51:51MDT - Msg ID:16618) Oct.22 >>>>----$387.50----+> I should think we will see the war really rage thisnext week. The shorters will be seen pounding the POG, butthe tide will be turning more and more toward ourshores. Very powerful people these shorters of gold...butas said in the past, pride goeth before a fall....And what a fall it will be my friends. watcher (10/16/99; 21:41:45MDT - Msg ID:16617) Ross L I will try to track down where I came across this comment.I was at kitco and gold forum lurking this AM . Anglogld doesn't seem to fit this typecasting in my mind either.Maybe poster got name of co wrong.I'll check it out. Golden Truth (10/16/99; 21:30:26MDT - Msg ID:16616) TO mike55 I found "ROLLOVER" at a video rental shop that carries a big selection of older movies. I to could not find it at the regular places i.e Blockbusters etc. Even though they had it in their computors. On my rental copy it says 1981 Orion Pictures'starring Jane Fonda and Kris Kristofferson.On the back of the movie jacket there is an ISBN 0-7907-0256-8 this is probably for the Book?Anyways it's a very interesting movie which links the Oil for GOLD deals to the financial world.Since this movie was made in 1981 i'd say this has been going on since the 1970's.Enough said, other than this is a Fiscal Titanic,and the whole World is along for the ride!P.S you won't like the ending unless you have more GOLD than you can carry, or at least your weight in GOLD.G.T Peter Asher (10/16/99; 20:55:38MDT - Msg ID:16615) Bonedaddy, law! Bonedaddy, Very nice story! I'm sure Leigh will enjoy telling it to her children at bedtime. Great tale for home schooling kids about Gold.law; thank you for the recognition. ---P. pa kua (10/16/99; 20:55:03MDT - Msg ID:16614) >===>=====>=====> $293 <=====<======<=======< In the 1960's and 70's I supported legalization of gold ownership and a gold standard for the USA. Today we seek a "new money" for a digital world. Successful ongoing experiments in some communities and regions (as in southern France) suggest a form of barter offers the best possibility for developing sound monies, functioning in a complimentary way with international currencies. The manipulation of currencies by powerful interests in this century has facilitated the control of science, technology and education by the few, which has encouraged global conflicts. The technological progress and the society of today is a shoddy result compared to what it could have been and might become if ideas, technology and resources had not been suppressed, stolen and controlled by selfish interests. It has placed the human race and the environment at risk of destruction.The three-year manipulation of gold we have just witnessed is a portent of war. Governments need gold to prepare for war; they have used the bankers to bankrupt the mines. Those who desire absolute power and control consider war or economic shocks a necessary means. The adoption of a gold standard today would be in a form that serves the governments in power, another way of manipulating the currencies to benefit the few to the detriment of the many.The Arab proverb runs, The neighbor before the house: The companion before the way.True, as ever. So, also, the Bard's Sonnet, which contains the lines," Mark how one string, sweet husband to another,/Strikes each on each in mutual ordering." The choices that face people everywhere in their ordinary lives are becoming more closely related. "The fraud of currency," as FOA describes it, is one. When we reach Philadelphia the different ways become one. watcher (10/16/99; 20:52:21MDT - Msg ID:16613) Peter Asher/RossL Sorry for delay in response to your posts .Was out for the day Peter Asher, Did not say that their hedge would not be settled. I was infering that a deal may have been arranged to settle their account with the fed. We have seen a similar thing done with LTCM where there was an off market transaction.The difference here could be a deal where the fed settles or buys there hedge book and in turn a company would then promise them that gold that was hedged over a predetermined period at a determined price in the future. This is only a postulation that presumes that the fed is actually trying to lock in as much gold (future) as possible by these deals before the price rise coming This would not change the inevitable . Between all the gold sold forward and shorting that has gone on these deals would not change the fact that with current demand not being met with supply and no cb sales with many buying back hedges and covering shorts and investment money coming in that hasn't been in gold market and future years of supply already sold these transactions are a drop in the bucket. I still see a price increase many many times current price in not so distant a future and am personnally looking forward to this future for me and all who were forced to endure this manipulation these last few years. Ross L read this on kitco . was a direct quote from company Peter Asher (10/16/99; 20:49:30MDT - Msg ID:16612) The usual suspects Yahoo! NewsTop Stories HeadlinesTuesday October 12 5:33 PM ETMaine Gets Taste of Y2K GlitchBy DAVID SHARP Associated Press Writer PORTLAND, Maine (AP) - State government got its first Y2K surprise months early when owners of 2000 model cars and trucks received titles identifying their new vehicles as ``horseless carriages.'' Despite millions of dollars spent to ensure state computers are ready for the year 2000, computers in the secretary of state's office got confused over the 2000 model year designation. As a result, some new vehicle owners or lien holders got titles to ``horseless carriages'' instead of cars or trucks in April. The case demonstrates the problems that can occur when computers misread the year 2000 as the year 1900, which is what happened in the secretary of state's office. Since the computer thought the model year was 1900, the titles were printed with the ``horseless carriage'' designation used for vintage vehicles produced before 1916, said Secretary of State Dan Gwadosky, whose office oversees licensing and registration of vehicles. About 800 passenger car titles and about 1,200 tractor-trailer titles were issued with the error, Gwadosky said. Since few people pay cash for cars, most of the titles went directly to banks and financial institutions. ``Most of them chuckled and said we need a clean title as soon as possible,'' Gwadosky said Tuesday. Gov. Angus King did not know of the problem until reporters asked him about it Tuesday. He said there is no guarantee computers will work properly but he said the state doesn't envision widespread problems with state computers on Jan. 1. ``The major systems that effect health and safety are in pretty good shape,'' King spokesman Dennis Bailey said. ``We're pretty sure if there is a problem, it will be this kind and not something serious.'' AEL (10/16/99; 20:34:53MDT - Msg ID:16611) inflation http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001ajv I hope this mans wrong, CRASH COMING and WHY.From the Prudent bear forum. The four possible, nay five possible outcomes and theirprobabilities: 1. Grand Super Cycle crash from here to triple figures: 20% 2. Sideways Greenspan/Yardeni Bear for 3.5 years: 10% 3. "Reversion to Mean" crash (Super Cycle?) c/w dowside overshoot to~3000 and recovery to ~5000, erasing "New Era" moral hazard: 67% 4. Final Blow-off to New Highs: 3% Oh yes, and lest we forget: 5. PC really does change Human Nature, thus creating the NewParadigm: 0% And now a few words from ex-AK-Broker Current Market News 10-15 Welcome to the promised land. I've always been amazed how yearsof analytical work come to fruition at once. Now is just such a time.Take your phone off the hook. Put up the "do not disturb sign." Callin sick, and pay attention to this. The PPI was released this morning. It was up an astonishing 1.1%.That's over 12% annualized. The core rate -- the one Wall Street wastelling you would not be affected -- soared 0.8%. All the b.s. we'veseen in the PPI reports has finally come to roost. Consumer foods prices were up 1%. Energy goods, up 2.2%. Gasoline wasup 2.2%. Heating oil, up 6%. But this is not energy-based inflation.Passenger cars soared 2%. That's after all those months where Iscreamed that prices were soaring. Finally, they couldn't hide it anylonger. But this is not the part of the report that is causing panicat the Fed. Inside information I have says Greenspan got an advance warning ofthe report. Here are the sections that triggered his astonishingwarning yesterday. Intermediate energy goods were up 1.8%. But crudegoods were up a whopping, gone-crazy 5.1%. Crude goods less food andenergy, up 2.2%. Non-food materials, up 7.6%. Incredible numbers, myfriends. But it gets even better. Let me give you the unadjusted numbers. They are staggeringeconomists the world over. Unadjusted finished goods, up 3.2%. That'san incredible 40% annual inflation rate. Not in Brazil, but in theUnited States. Less food and energy, up 1.7% unadjusted. Even morestaggering, crude goods unadjusted were up 16.1%. Non-food materialsunadjusted up 30.2%. There's no inflation?? BULL. Inflation is out of control. It's nowembedded. It's bubbling to the surface, and the U.S. economy is goingto hell. Already, as I write this report the Dow is down nearly 200points. U.S. business inventories and sales were also reported today. FromJuly to August, this number was up 1.3%. From August 1998 to August1999 it was up an astonishing 9.2%. Inventories were only up .3%.Which means businesses are unable to keep up with the runawayeconomy. The August stock to sales ratio is now at 1.32. The lowest amount ofinventory to sales, American business has ever held. Greenspan's warning last night, to American bankers, was the mostincredible speech any central banker has ever made. Greenspan will godown in history for making one of the gravest mistakes of any FedChairman. He did not raise rates early, when he still had a chance tostop this runaway bubble economy. Greenspan needs to stop cocking around here. He needs to raise rates.Now, fast, and repeatedly. He has a flat-out crisis on his hands. Theleast of which is the stock market collapse. He's on record warningAmerican bankers about a stock market collapse. Truth is, Greenspanis petrified the crash will melt down the U.S. financial system. Sohe took a greater risk. He allowed inflation to become embedded inthe U.S. economy.For over ten years, I've warned about the danger of a U.S. stockmarket bubble crash. It's here. You need to trade this. I'm notscrewing around. More important, the Fed and the markets are notscrewing around. By the time everyone else realizes the U.S. economyis going down the poop shoot, it will be too late. 10-15 Today the stock market suffered its biggest trading loss inover a year. The dollar plunged against the Euro, German Mark, andJapanese yen. T-bonds were up, yields were slightly down, on a flightto quality. Panicked traders sought a safe haven. The Dow fell 267 points. 2.6%. The S&P500 cash fell 36.01 points, to1247.41. That is a 2.8% drop. The NASDAQ plunged 75 points, to 2732.Down 2.4%. For the week, the Dow fell 630 points. That is its biggestweekly decline ever. Declining stocks outnumbered gainers by nearlyfour to one. 2400 stocks fell. 687 were up. We saw an equal number offalling stocks to rising on the NASDAQ. Early indications I have say this week saw the biggest dollar outflowfrom mutual funds ever. All this action took place on huge volume.908 million shares traded on the NYSE today. I was in the market the entire day. The only way to describe today'strading activity is "panic". Huge losses were booked. I mean huge.This is not the end of the move. It is the start of the Wall Streetwipeout you and I have been planning for. At one point today, the Dow was below 10,000. Only panicked,manipulated buying by club members kept the Dow above 10,000 at theclose. I don't care what kind of spin you see. This is an unmitigateddisaster. It is truly round one, in what will turn out for us to bethe most glorious event of our lives. This week's losses on Wall Street rippled around the world. Stockmarkets in Europe, Asia, and Latin America all fell, as Greenspanwarned about the bubble stock market wipeout. In the coming days andweeks, the market will not go straight down. There will be rallyattempts. But as you see, buying for the long haul, regarding everydip as a bargain hunting opportunity, is no longer the psychology ofthe market. How serious is this drop? One indication is that the White House feltthe need to reassure the markets that everything is great. Not once,but several times. White House National Economic Counsel Head GeneSperling said he expected "quite solid U.S. economic growth in the3rd quarter of the year." Hey, Gene, I have news for you. 3rd quarteris done past. The stock market looks forward, not backward. He said,"the U.S. remains in a sound growth and low-inflationaryenvironment." Obviously, besides all his other problems, he can'tread. Wall Street's and the Clinton administration's response ispitiful. More important, despite these record-setting downturns, the stockmarket is still grossly overvalued. It has a long, long way to fall. ...... more at the link......... Leigh (10/16/99; 20:09:17MDT - Msg ID:16610) Goodnight, All Wow, the conversation is getting really interesting tonight! Wonderful poem, CoBra! Loved your story (as always), Bonedaddy! We've all got to rise and shine early to be at our battle stations by 8:50 (Eastern), so I'm off to bed. Tomorrow sounds like a fun day!! NORTH OF 49 (10/16/99; 20:01:25MDT - Msg ID:16609) Sorry! That last post was addressed to "Canuck"No49 NORTH OF 49 (10/16/99; 19:59:42MDT - Msg ID:16608) As I'm Sure, "Crock Dundee" would say "Now THAT'S an arrow"!No49 Twice Discipled (10/16/99; 19:59:02MDT - Msg ID:16607) *>>>>------$328.40--------+> Just praying that it doesn't shoot up too high before, I can get my money out of the grips of those lying, cheating bankers on Tuesday. Leigh (10/16/99; 19:58:01MDT - Msg ID:16606) FOA Ditto Canuck, and gogold on Kitco says FOA's one scary dude because he knows what he's talking about. Canuck (10/16/99; 19:51:11MDT - Msg ID:16605) FOA msg #16574 After the PPI release on Friday (8:30am Eastern) I felt a sudden surge of euphoria so large that I knew everything I had looked for in the past 16 months was validated. My quest for knowledge (initially Y2K) led me to USAGOLD, the scope of conversation here at this forum borders on unimaginable and it truly is a credit to all the people who shed light on such a vast array of topics.My knowledge has grown from near nothing to a hint of an understanding of economics, finance, history, and a multitude of other subjects. I thank everyone, I thank Mr. Kosares and last but not least I thank FOA. You are cool under pressure. You are the man. I am up and down like a yo-yo and I credit this to my age or experience or possibly to my genetic ability to handle this craziness. I hope that someday I can walk in the footsteps of a giant like you.P.S.Oct.22Due to announcement tomorrow, CPI on Tuesday and freak show developing at Comex, the Oct. 22 gold close, IMHO, will be in neighbourhood of: \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\__________________\\\\ -----------------__________________ $$$ )))) $399 U.S. ////////////////// //// mike55 (10/16/99; 19:44:29MDT - Msg ID:16604) Golden Truth, Re: Rollover GT -- I've been trying to find the video "Rollover" you've mentioned. According to your posts, it sounds interesting. I'm in a large metro area, but have had no luck at the mega-stores, Mom & Pop shops, or public libraries. Did you rent or purchase the video ? Perhaps an online source to buy? TIA. mike55 (10/16/99; 19:37:56MDT - Msg ID:16603) >>>>>>------ $322.40 ----------> Since I won't be able to post tomorrow, I can't wait to see if there's any substance to the GATA cartel rumor. While the Dow will show continued strains of confidence next week, I believe the gold shorts will continue to do everything in their power to keep the lid on gold, and accordingly it will rise only a few dollars for December. I also believe next week's stop-gap to be short-lived as the weeks following will see the dollar/gold exchange rate rising toward year end. Thanks to all here -- this is far and away the best site on the internet! law (10/16/99; 19:35:24MDT - Msg ID:16602) Mining stocks, 1st time poster, appreciation http://www.goldsheet.simplenet.com DD, where are you? Boy DD!! I have to concur with you--"There's something powerful in FOA's posts--they combine an intellectual and experiential message based in philosophy, psychology, history (including geopolitical and cultural), economics, finance, and many other disciplines, while wrapping it in warmth, compassion, understanding and humor.Also: ORO and Yellin -- your synthesized depth of reason, logic, and comprehension are terrific...as is the thought provoking analysis of MK, TC, SteveH and many others at this forum. The viewpoints, perspectives, and humor of Peter, Leigh, Tomcat, Goldspoon, Goldfly, Gandalf, Farfel, Black Blade, Beesting, Journeyman, RossL, Bonedaddy, Richard, YGM, and the many, many others here, make this a wondrous meeting place.I may not be able to add much...so much has already been said, but will share some thoughts as I can.DD and Skip: I can certainly identify with your experiences in business and investing. You expressed the human factor well!RossL, GT: I think Watcher may have confused Anglo with Normandy?FOA: The illumination of the various types of gold markets has been much appreciated!For those of you interested in mining stocks--I have subscribed to newsletters and researched this area for 20 years--see the above link.I thought the "system" was on the verge of collapse 20 years ago. I tend to agree with Farfel..."the powers that be" can create many "dollars" that they have used as duct (duck) tape and bandaids. But, I think the "jigs" up!!!The tape and bandaids are losing there adhesion.The Best to all...a lurker no longer.Oh Yeah! The price of gold Oct 22 ----> $338.20 Hipplebeck (10/16/99; 19:33:39MDT - Msg ID:16601) Leigh Put some arrows around that 400 or so Leigh (10/16/99; 19:30:39MDT - Msg ID:16600) Hipplebeck Hi, Michael, thanks for your kind words. No, I'm not going to make a prediction, but I imagine the price will be on the high ($400 or so) side. Just my guess.I couldn't let a week go by without making a little dig at megatron. He's like a bad little brother you can't help teasing. He's probably snarling at his computer screen and saying awful things. Hi, megatron, have you clicked on executiveorders.org and e-mailed your Congressman yet? Maybe a little rebellious activity will soothe you. Hipplebeck (10/16/99; 19:30:30MDT - Msg ID:16599) Just thoughts Sometimes when I read the posts here, I feel like something big is going to happen at any moment.Then , depending on what happens to me during the day, if I get distracted, that goes away.I know we have all built and use, what is to me, a completely ridiculous monetary world, and that someday the crunch must come, because it is obviously built in. The world is what you make it, and sometimes is is downright embarassing to be one of the human beings that made this mess. I'm sure glad to know there are people out there who see things in a similar manner as I do.Michael Hipplebeck (10/16/99; 19:14:39MDT - Msg ID:16598) Hi Leigh I think you've got a lot of class.I've been here about 3 months, Studying, Watching, Learning,and contributing, so I've seen some of your posts.Have you made the Oct. 22 guess yet?Michael. Snug Harbor, Oklahoma. elevator guy (10/16/99; 19:13:04MDT - Msg ID:16597) Clarification, that makes sense. (cents?) *>>>------$350.00----------+> elevator guy (10/16/99; 19:11:17MDT - Msg ID:16596) POG on Friday, COMEX, NY close. *>>>------$350----------+>Reasons to be bullish.There is so much truth in the air, it cant be suppressed. If every tongue would stop, the gold itself would start to sing. (My apologies, Tim Rice)FOA is exposing the future. Bill Murphy is exposing the present. Michael Kosares is housing the troops. The shorts are shakin' in their boots, like "deer staring into the headlights" (Thx, B.M.) They can't cover now, and they certainly can't cover later. They might as well bend over and kiss their a*s goodbye. Possible cartel forming. (Hope there is good news on this tommorrow) Gold is still trading at depressed prices, compared to when the fix began in earnest, and only just now beginning to rise to its true status as reserve currency/backing. Equilibrium price is said to be $600/oz, but after rising to that level, and the dollar is coughed up around the world, it will soar until we can see just how bankrupt and worthless the dollar is, like so much confetti. Lease rates remain very high, strong demand, and now with the advent of the Euro, there is no reason why the ECBs have to play any more dollar games. They can now blast away at the dollar, without rocking their own boat. The jig is up, and next week we are going to rock and roll! Leigh (10/16/99; 19:06:39MDT - Msg ID:16595) megatron megatron, your language in that last post makes you sound like you've done too much partying yourself this evening. Your analogies are good, but your choice of words is deplorable. summicron (10/16/99; 18:43:11MDT - Msg ID:16594) >>>>>> ----- $312.50 ------ <<<<<<< I failed to put the standard arrows before my best arrow, so I am repeating my prediction. I am pessimistic for the next week because I think the gold shorts will put up a desparate fight to save themselves and will hammer the price down repeatedly all week, and that on Oct. 22 it will end up at $312.50. Then, the following Monday, it will start to rise so powerfully that no short selling will any longer be able to hold it back. Bonedaddy (10/16/99; 18:42:43MDT - Msg ID:16593) A tale for the kindred spirits.... WHO IS IT? WHO COMES TO AWAKEN ME FROM MY REST? Well…er…uh… it me.. bonedaddy…COME CLOSER, STEP INTO THE LIGHT AND LET ME HAVE A LOOK AT YOU. BONEDADDY, HUH? WHAT KIND OF NAME IS THAT? SOUNDS PRETENTIOUS TO ME. Well, it 's a nickname actually, I chose it for myself. It's slang for the leader of a tribe of savages.JUDGING FROM THE LOOKS OF YOU, THE TRIBE MUST BE PYGMIES, WHAT DO YOU WEIGH, 120 SOAKING WET? One thirty, if its any of your business. Besides, I chose the name in your honor. You're the bonedaddy of the whole currency tribe! ME, THE LEADER OF ALL CURRENCIES? HA! SON, I'VE BEEN OUT OF CIRCULATION A LONG TIME, BUT WHAT PLANET HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING ON? THE TRASH THAT PASSES FOR CURRENCY TODAY RETIRED ME A LONG TIME AGO. YOU'RE WASTING MY TIME, MOVE ALONG. Well actually, that "trash" that passes for currency, is the reason for my visit. There is more and more of it every day. There are an incredible amount of dollars and all kinds of stocks and securities that are acting like currency. There's even paper gold!WHAT, PAPER GOLD! WHY, THAT'S PREPOSTEROUS! THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS PAPER GOLD! PEOPLE MAY AS WELL BE TRADING PAPER SUNSHINE! HOW DID ALL THIS NONSENSE GET STARTED? Well, I can't say actually. It's rather complicated for me, but I think it was greed at the root of it. There are plenty of people around who would trade in paper sunshine if they thought they could make a buck at it. GREED ALWAYS MAKES PEOPLE GULLIBLE. BELIEVE ME, I'VE SEEN PLENTY OF GREED IN MY TIME. WELL, I SUPPOSE IF THERE WERE ENOUGH GULLIBLE PEOPLE, A MARKET COULD BE MADE IN BOTH BLUE SKY AND SUNSHINE. Yes. That appears to be exactly what has happened. And that is precisely why we have to get you back in circulation. There has been so much blue sky and sunshine sold to so many people that everyone forgot about storms. SO, A HARD RAIN WOULD WIPE OUT A LOT OF PAPER SUNSHINE THEN? I believe that is exatly our position right now.WOULD THAT BE SO BAD? Well, I suppose it depends on your point of view. Today many more people than ever before have everything they own in paper sunshine. It'll probably wreck the world for a while.YES, A STORM WOULD BE TRAGIC THEN. AS YOU KNOW, I WAS CREATED AGES AGO TO SERVE MAN AS REAL MONEY. SO, I'LL ARISE NOW AND DO MY DUTY. I'LL WARN YOU NOW, MY METHODS CAN BE BRUTAL, IT WON'T BE PRETTY. Yes, I think I understand, but there's really no one else who can do the job. ONE MORE THING. REMEMBER THIS FOR AS LONG AS YOU LIVE. I'M ONLY MONEY. I CAN BE YOUR FRIEND, BUT NEVER, NEVER, LET ME BE YOUR MASTER! megatron (10/16/99; 18:24:41MDT - Msg ID:16592) greenspan He's starting to look like the drunk at a party who keeps turning the music up. Shares are overvalued? Thankx Alan, what a genius! The rise in gold was the phone call from the neighbors, silver will be the cops beating the S##t out of him on the front lawn, and the collapse of the dollar will be the bill from the hospital. HA HA HA you phony socialist gov't statist ASS@@@@ole CoBra(too) (10/16/99; 18:15:51MDT - Msg ID:16591) A limerick? from the Vienna Woods There once was a standard of goldThough some have revoked it!As I was brutally toldWhen still I was a kid.The bankers of standingPeddling fiat insteadAre in for hard landingSystemic risk ahead!The system of paper in a new paradigmWhereby piling on debtWhich we can't ever redeem("und alles ist hin" - J.N. Nestroy)Is the new age concept.But once the bubble starts burstingAnd there's nowhere to hideYou realize you've been thirstingTo wellcome the golden tide! Cheers - CB2 - late Sat. nite gidsek (10/16/99; 18:12:41MDT - Msg ID:16590) MRM "Knock on wood but I have yet to lose a penny in the precious metal markets."You must be terribly lonely!gidsek :-) Black Blade (10/16/99; 18:05:21MDT - Msg ID:16589) Quabbin....Irish news. Just a short note here. If you were Irish, wouldn't you want gold to drop, even crater right before each and every Brit auction? Just to slam it home to the Brits as a little revenge over that potato thing awhile back ;) Trebor (10/16/99; 17:53:52MDT - Msg ID:16588) (No Subject) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003F4J/o/qid=940117642/sr=2-1/002-4732703-6013010 Click on "DIE WALKURE" to hear the GATA music Leigh (10/16/99; 17:44:25MDT - Msg ID:16587) Quabbin Boy, is that writer going to be surprised next week! He'll be eating his words and gobbling the Pepto-Bismol! GO GATA!!! MRM (10/16/99; 17:34:53MDT - Msg ID:16586) Oct22 <<<------342.79------>>> Hey it's just a guess but with all the rumors out there who knows. Who woulda thought we'd be where we're at just a month ago or so. It will be interesting to see if the Midas rumor pans out. I started buying physical just over one year ago. I bought a junior stock 8 months ago which I sold last week for a nice profit (but what a ride). I used the profits to buy another stock this week. Knock on wood but I have yet to lose a penny in the precious metal markets. I'm looking for a lot of problems with America's debt this fall and extending. The sharks smell blood and it's crush time. Next week will be interesting indeed.I heard some wild man was giving away silver for first time posters. Thanks MK!!! Thank you even more the education that I have received from this forum. Quabbin (10/16/99; 17:26:15MDT - Msg ID:16585) From the Kitco news links... http://www.kitco.com/_a/news/2161.htm This one was written in an Irish pub after a loooooong night of drinking. Do not read it without a bottle of Pepto nearby.Ugh.Q. Trebor (10/16/99; 17:23:53MDT - Msg ID:16584) One of the music sites is busy try the other Try one of each. Sorry for any disappointment. TownCrier (10/16/99; 17:22:54MDT - Msg ID:16583) Exploring the inner core of Anglogold New York--Oct 14--Anglogold of South Africa is concerned the enormous rally seen in gold over the past month won't be sustainable as it has introduced instability into the market, said Kelvin Williams, executive director for the company. ---Bridge News (Reprinted at USAGOLD by permission, no further reproduction without permission from Bridge)The key element of that piece is clearly the concern over the instability aspect. And specifically, that instability is manifested in the books of both financial institutions and producers who have contracted lots of business with other parties under the medium-term prospects of prices much lower than they are today, including the additional treats of higher prices to come. His warning seems to be clearly a plea to their counterparties to please find ways to cooperate with all those having upside-down forward books...otherwise the industry-wide instability would threaten the viability and sustainability of a "new gold market" going forward. And clearly, this is what the "long" gold counterparties would want, so his comment should be seen as a bargaining device. If Anglogold is taking action (or inaction) on their forward books that would seem counter to the common-sense direction, it may just be that there's a bigger purpose to be served, and expectation of lower gold prices is not among them.Mr. Williams is also head of Rand Refinery Ltd, and was quoted by Reuters during the unveiling of the Krugerrand 2000 coin: "Investors in North America, Europe, Asia and the Far East, as well as in South Africa, who do not hold some gold within their portfolios, may well rue the day if the unexpected should occur within the first decade of the new millennium."Notice the time frame...he doesn't say something "unexpected" withing the first hours, days or weeks of the new millennium. He says the first DECADE. Clearly that's not a Y2K thing, but something else. And that's interesting on another level, because if you're worried about something unexpected taking place that would be so significant that you must either plan for it or else "rue the day," only two timeframes are important:1) immediate short-term, or 2) the rest of your lifetime.Why on earth would he say "decade?" If you take into account his earlier concern for sustainability, a picture begins to take shape that he may be somewhat "in" on things to come.He said decade because, first, he didn't want to send the wrong signal that the reasons are Y2K related. And second, because if you are an insider, you know enough not to narrow the field of revelation too much on developments that are significant enough to warrant them being kept currently in the back rooms and dark alleys. He may know very well that the timeframe is two years, say...with the introduction of euro coinage in 2002 (just to make an example, not a prediction), but he wouldn't say in his speech..."Investors in North America, Europe, Asia and the Far East, as well as in South Africa, who do not hold some gold within their portfolios, may well rue the day if the unexpected should occur within the second year of the new millennium."TownCrier's bottom line: The more you know about gold and the more you know about money and currency, the more you want to have real gold. Trebor (10/16/99; 17:20:16MDT - Msg ID:16582) Offical GATA Bombshell music (ore it should be) Maybe it has to be a cut and paste.http://www.futurenet.com/classicalnet/reference/works/w/wagner-valkyriessound.html Trebor (10/16/99; 17:13:21MDT - Msg ID:16581) Offical GATA Bombshell music (ore it should be) http://www.futurenet.com/classicalnet/reference/works/w/wagner-valkyriessound.html Saw this in SI This should be the GATA "fight" song.http://infoseek.go.com/?win=_search&sv=M6&lk=noframes&nh=10&ud9=IE5&qt=wagner&oq=&url=http%3A//www.zazz.com/wagner/&ti=Richard+Wagner+on+the+Web&top=click Die Walkure CoBra(too) (10/16/99; 17:12:47MDT - Msg ID:16580) Gold Cartel - cui bono? I recall having suggested a cartel of the major gold producers to restrict supply, similar to OPEC before summer and got legal flac from most posters. The main difference was that oil was in oversupply, whereas the physical gold supply was in deficit for many years - since the late 80's at least.The intent of the message was to restrict "future" or paper supply from the only real and capital intensive source - the miners -, since it was clearly only a matter of time, when the bonus of cheap financing will backfire. Both, in the anticipated price depreciation of the pledged collateral as in the attraction to the derivative "hedge fund" mob. But the attraction of carry trades, be it Yen, SFR or Gold, is the exponential leverage.The financial establishment, thriving on better thy neighbour in terms total return by taking on ever more risk exposure - the derivative (risk) exposure of the US money center banks is probably more than $50 trillion!, not acccounting for (ab)normal credit risks (like 125% mortgage finance at peak of a bubble!!!) - as reached hist(o)erical proportions. So has the gold carry trade. The globalization & dollarization has arrived "at the end of the rainbow" and instead of finding the pot of gold - they're just finding a pot full of (nuts)future paper promises.Humpty Dumpty can't even fall from the Wall (St.) - the Wallwas built on a reversed " 'oval' overblown egg-bomb-shell"!So, on't crack your head - crack the hedge (nest)egg and go gold!!! beware of the debris -CB2 Leigh (10/16/99; 16:59:55MDT - Msg ID:16579) GoldyLocks Guy Great poem! We have some wonderful poets here on the Forum -- you, Bonedaddy, Peter, and others. I'm glad you're here with us, though you're not going to win the prize because apparently the POG is going to go ballistic next week. You're going to treat us to a DESERT if we come to Tennessee? Are you part Arab? No, you can't be, not with those GoldyLocks! Leigh (10/16/99; 16:52:31MDT - Msg ID:16578) Tomorrow's Announcement You guys, this is hard waiting until tomorrow! I'm scarcely going to sleep tonight for wondering what's going to happen. Then I'll be going to church right after announcement time, so I won't see what everyone has to say. THEN we have to wait till tomorrow night to see how the markets react.....!!!!! Golden Truth (10/16/99; 16:51:34MDT - Msg ID:16577) TO F.O.A Just a quick Hello! and wanted to say i was just looking at the dollar gold charts,before returning to the forum here to find you reminding us all about the chart you posted here a couple of days ago and told us to watch it.Great minds think a like,** man do i wish that were true because you are truly awesome!!!!The movie "Rollover" and account #21214 still playing through my mind. Thanks as always :-) G.T Goldy Locks Guy (10/16/99; 16:31:48MDT - Msg ID:16576) oct 22 >>>>>>> \\\\\\\\>>>>>>>>>>>=============== 328.50 ===============>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ////////OK....is that purty or what?Yep...I'm a newbie..and loving it! (I'm also a man of 35 if your interested) And I want to win that Gold piece. I saw the limerick that our other precious poster wrote and just felt inspiration swell inside of me....So, for your entertainment alone, I offer you my little ryhme. (ladies, get your tissues before going any further...it's a real tear jerker)There once was a people empassionedWho longed to see justice for GoldThey were called barbaric and old fashioned"You're crazy" by most they were toldBut steadfast in faith they believedAs Wall Street continued to boastThat once the BULL was conceivedThe stock market would surely would roastThe fire would not be stoppedThe dollar would look like a ghostInvestors realize their fortunes are croppedTheir savings nothing but toastBut there's a lesson you can learnEven now it's not too lateIf from Bubbles and Bonds you quickly turnGreat wealth can be your fateSo liquidate your stockBuy some gold that's tried and trueIt's a shelter from the stormThat's just started passing throughI just love this forum and have signed up because maybe I won't have to hop all over the internet searching for miniscule tidbits about the markets and what's going on.I like this forum also because we all have a common bond...and for the most part that makes us friends..right? I've been trading in precious metals all year and have loved it, even in the shakey times, and have always believed that Gold will play a major part in the world once again..(After everyone has borrowed and leveraged their life away, but still...)Anyway, I'm just hoping I can come up with some more cash soon for getting more gold at this current price....(315 + or -)I must apologize to everyone for guessing the correct price for gold on the 22nd...(they might as well go ahead and send me the prize now.) Perhaps after the POG rises alittle more, you all can come to TN and I'll treat you to dinner...and maybe a desert.OK...enough is enough...It's late and I feel dangerous. Again, thanks to all of you poster who know more than I do. I appreciate all the insight, right or wrong...it makes for a well rounded intellect in the precious metals market.Take care and keep up the great posts! Goldylocks AREM (10/16/99; 16:25:08MDT - Msg ID:16575) LEIGH, Bonedaddy, North of 49 http://executiveorders.org/ Thanks for your kind support and enthusiasm for stopping Clinton's unconstitutional attempts at taking over our government.I worked up a chain letter version of my posting (first one) this morning. I plan to send it to every one on my mailing list. Hopefully it will spread like wild fire.I hope that everyone will feel free to copy it and use it.==================================(Subject) Clinton is Bypassing the US ConstitutionDid you know that President Clinton has signed over 300 executive orders since assuming office in January 1993?By using executive orders and declarations of emergency, President Clinton is vastly increasing the power of the national government over us. He is also concentrating more power in his hands alone by taking the legislative power that rightfully belongs to the 535 men and women of the United States Congress.With each stroke of his pen, he is effectively rewriting our Constitution. He is, with each stroke of his pen, effectively erasing the sacrifices made by American troops throughout our country's history who defended – not rewrote – our ConstitutionFor example:Presidential Decision Directive 25 enables the U.S. military to be moved under U.N. command without congressional approval. Executive Order 12919 directs cabinet officials to take over all aspects of the economy during a declared state of emergency. It effectively puts the entire United States under the control of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Currently, the U.S. operates under 14 states of emergency. Executive Order 13133, titled "Working Group on Unlawful Conduct on the Internet," was issued Aug. 7, 1999, stipulating that a group of agency heads will define "unlawful conduct." This deliberate erosion of our freedom and our constitution can be stopped. Congressman Ron Paul of Texas has introduced a comprehensive bill - The Separation of Powers Restoration Act, HR2655. If enacted, HR 2655 would :* Repeal the War Powers Resolution and end all states of national emergency. * Require that treaties and executive agreements purporting to assign powers not amongst those specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution would be non-binding. * Require that the president, in issuing executive orders, cite the specific congressional enactment and the constitutional authority on which it's based. * Prohibit delegation of power to a foreign government or international body when no such delegating authority exists under the Constitution. * Grant legal standing to individual members of Congress, state officials and private citizens who believe a presidential executive order is unconstitutional. Each of us can help get this vital resolution passed, and it's easy to do. First, click on web site http://executiveorders.org/It will provide more information on this resolution and will tell you if your Congressman is a sponsor. If he/she is not a sponsor, it will make it easy to urge that action. (NOTE: If your Congressman does not have a public e-mail address, you can find his web site by clicking on to http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.html )Next, make copies of this e-mail message and send them to all of your friends who value their freedom. We must act now before it is too late. FOA (10/16/99; 16:23:27MDT - Msg ID:16574) Comment http://www.decisionpoint.com/DailyCharts/00goldDXY.html Once again I ask everyone to take a good look at the above chart. I offered it some days ago as a witness to what is about to take place. To date the dollar has fallen and US stocks have begun a revaluation that is far from over. Both of these trends will continue as the whole financial system changes it's tools of valuing assets. The gold chart shows no signs of falling as would have been the case in recent years. Yet everyone sees this recent slowdown in advancement as a sign that the BBs are again working the will of the CBs. They are not! Indeed, is the fall in lending rates a sign that fresh gold is being supplied to cover the shorts? I tell you the lending arena of the gold market is frozen in loses. Today the lease rates offer little direction because none of the major gold sellers have covered or intend to if they can help it. Yes many of the paper shorts have covered, but the thousands of tonnes of gold contracts have yet to be made whole for the "originator". Is this how the game is played? Consider this as you watch the gold charts. Two types of contracts exist in these numbers that will create the crisis. These are mixed in with "clean" deals. Yet they (90% of the short gold) create the real demand that will drive prices much higher unless the paper markets are sold into oblivion. First, some are held by actual gold lenders (mostly private entities) that are now demanding a speedy end to these relationships. Mostly this gold was put "in play" not for the low returns but for the "fees and favours" bullion would generate. So, in order for these lenders to be made whole the gold must be purchased by the dealer in the open market or it must be borrowed from someone else to complete the transactions. The "BB dealers" have the option of arranging this return as able. Presently they are doing neither as they wait and assess the situation. This process is a game we now play as they wait for gold to fall and new supplies become available. All the while the lender sweats his position. Understandably, they fear for the return of their gold at all. If defaulted on, they will most likely receive a cash payment that theoretically could be used to replace their gold. Still, if this process begins, a mad rush to buy gold using "default payments" would telegraph a full crisis into the trading arena. Gold would soar long before any large portion of bullion could be brought. Second, many contracts are outright "naked short" in that it's the contract creators responsibility to supply gold when the term ends. In this position, usually gold was never lent or sold into the marketplace. The deal was little more than a play on gold falling with the writer risking the firms capital to profit making the difference in the gold price. Often a long time physical holder brought his fully owned bullion into this play and received most of his cash back plus a contract to receive gold (unallocated??). His gold could be sold outright or held by the bank as partial reserves to cover the writing of many other "naked short" contracts. This was the real engine that sucked private gold into the "supply for fabrication" deficit. In the process paper gold was sold to drive the prices down. All of the new investment demand for gold was supplied using a glut of paper instead of physical gold. Unbelievable as it may seem this is where Another said years ago that gold was falling because so many people were buying it! What seemed nuts then is understandable today. In any event, the holders of these contracts are the ones that will be demanding "allocation" as they withdraw their investment funds from the falling stock and financial markets. Just as above, the physical markets are so tight that in order to close these deals, gold must be borrowed. That is if lenders can be found!Onward: We have entered the largest gold bull market in history. The Major world central banks have made it extremely clear that this bull will run as never before. Michael Kosares pointed people to the WGC site for an explanation of the recent "agreement", yet no one must not have read it for they still talk about CB and BB lending. People, it's not happening! This small lag in the price spike is only about shorts in major trouble trying to assess how they can bail out. Here is a partial breakdown of the parts we should grasp. See the site for a full write up.http://www.gold.org/Gra/Pr/Wr991006.htmWorld Gold Council Review of:The Washington Central Banks Agreement on Gold 26 September 1999--First, it is an explicit signed agreement among the European central banks, which goes well beyond earlier 'clarifications' about their gold holdings by central bank governors. ---------it has been signed by each central bank governor, all of whom (except the Bank of England) have legal responsibility for their gold reserves.----------- During the recent fall in the gold market nothing was said to clarify to the public. All of the "official deals" were done for political reasons. Read our USAGOLD HOF site for background. Once the Euro was born, the reasons to drop the price of gold were removed. However, during this entire, multiyear operation, an enormous "sideline play" of selling gold developed. These people never would openly give their reasons for "coat tailing" the fall in gold. None of them understood why gold was falling and still don't. We can understand why they continue to think gold will fall as they have bet the bank on that outcome. The very ones in this sector are the same entities that will suffer the most as the IMF/dollar world is destroyed. For them it's going to be a double hardship. Today, the ECB/BIS has "openly stated for all to see" that gold will fall no more! It is indeed interesting that we spent but a few months below $280 and will now zoom through $500 in no time at all. Note these next items:--It is our understanding that the Agreement will be monitored by the Bank for International Settlements (BIS).--------The International Monetary Fund and Bank for International Settlements are to abide by the 'spirit' of the agreement-----Perfect!!!---The US has already announced its intention not to sell or lend gold and Japan followed suit the day after the Agreement was announced.---------The US had changed it's position on gold in the early spring of this year. Those that still think the US Fed is selling any form of gold short just do not understand how this market has changed. Waiting for the price to fall as "official sales" or "lending" confirm the recent price action will find you on the the outside of a bull market.---In addition Australia has said it will not sell any more gold, and South Africa is unlikely to sell part of its reserves given the government's vehement opposition to the UK sales.-----------bringing the total amount of official gold covered to 85%.--------We have but to wait and watch as the pressure rises under the price of gold!------We understand that the quotas are not transferable, i.e. if the Swiss decide not to sell 1300 tonnes in the next five years but instead only 1000 tonnes, then no other institution can sell the remaining 300 tonnes.--------So, how does one prepare for the coming historic bull market in gold. Follow in the footsteps of the only correct Giant in South Africa. Read the Gold Fields report presented here in partial review": http://news.24.com/English/Business/Companies/ENG_161017_727173_SEO.asp---Gold Fields said on Friday it had completed the repurchase of its gold hedge (forward sales) position.------------it seems inevitable to us that higher, if not much higher, gold prices are possible.-------Gold Fields continues to hold approximately 660 000 ounces of rand-gold call options at an average strike price of R2 171 per ounce.------------Thompson commented: "At higher gold prices the restrictive impact on our balance sheet and the drag on earnings from a continued hedge position would limit our ability to make acquisitions and develop new deposits". ------------ I would say that these people must be the only truly progressive miners in the world. Not only did they buy physical gold at the BOE auction, they are "LONG" gold on contract! Other miners may have "bid low" to show suport, but only Gold Fields got real gold and now is long. They not only understood where gold is going, they positioned their company as a private person should in protecting their estate. We can now most easily see the other hedged miners are trapped in the Bullion Bank web as they can do nothing. These companies will no doubt go down with the ship. If they can not unwind their position today during a standing price, they will die during the coming run!. With 85% of the official world gold holdings effectively blocked from lending and most all the private lenders wanting out of this game, how could any major forward seller close out? Price has nothing to do with it as the bullion will not be there for 5 years, if even then! These miners will now sit and watch as that gold chart (above) runs out of numbers on the upside. While everyone makes noise about how the market is still controlled to the downside, Bullion owners and Gold Fields will run with the wind of this historic "OFFICIAL" bull market. If only other miners would put on a Texas Hedge, at least there bookkeeping entries could benefit even if the bullion market cannot supply! Good Job Gold Fields,,,,,,,,,, FOA TownCrier (10/16/99; 16:18:03MDT - Msg ID:16573) Hear ye! Hear ye! A call to contest! >>>>------A REMINDER--------+> The master of the Castle, our gracious host at Centennial Precious Metals, has made it known that he will yield up gold and silver prizes--for it would please him to see the Knights, Squires, Ladies, and honest Townsmen at play upon the green fields under these golden leaves of Autumn.Good People of the land, hear ye, and may you walk away heavier with riches than upon your arrival. Your participation, comradery, and good times is all we seek...so please step to the field of play when you have prepared yourself for the simple task at hand. To wit, one arrow each, and your best effort to strike nearest the mark.THE RULES:So draw forth your truest arrow, toe the line, take aim, and let fly your best prediction for the closing COMEX December gold futures contract price (as quoted that day by TownCrier) for next Friday, October 22, 1999. All arrows (predictions) must be leap from the bow and be in flight no later than this Sunday, October 17 at midnight (Sun./Mon.) according to the clock kept at this Round Table.All entries into the contest must use standard arrows in the subject line as demonstrated here, or a reasonable replica:*>>>>------$500.00--------+>Contestants must ALSO provide a brief oratory (at least 30 words) upon release of their arrow explaining either the method of their aim, or a pleasing tale explaining what role gold or this Forum has played in their lives. These won't be judged, but we must hear your voice as you take aim at your target.THE PRIZES:To the arrow nearest the mark: One beautiful French 20 franc gold coin, bearing the likeness of lovely Liberty and a bold Rooster to usher in the dawn of a new era.To the next two nearest arrows: One silver Eagle, each.To all first time posters throughout the duration of this contest: by simply gracing us with your voice on any gold related subject, you will receive One silver Eagle, each. But you must also e-mail the Castle (Centennial Precious Metals / USAGOLD) at cpm@usagold.com to let us know that you are a first-time poster. We will confirm the record, and the precious metal will be yours for sharing your time and interest in this most important of monetary subjects.LET THE GAMES BEGIN! RossL (10/16/99; 16:08:50MDT - Msg ID:16572) hedgebooks Hedgebooks are not all the same. If a mining company bought puts, they could let those puts expire worthless. If they sold calls, their exposure is unlimited. If they sold forward, they can just deliver the physical. The need to restructure a hedgebook is not mandatory, it just depends!!! Golden Truth (10/16/99; 15:55:18MDT - Msg ID:16571) TO RossL Hello RoosL, I think that comment reported by "Watcher" is a head fake. I can't think of a better way to catch all the other mines (Barrick) short by saying one thing and doing another! I listened to Bobby Godsell when our "M.K" posted the telephone # for a conference call that took place when Bobby Godsell went over to England, and wanted to meet with P.M Tony Blair. About the impact of Englands GOLD sales on SouthAfrica and of course M.R Blair didn't show.One thing i do remember is his deep accent and he sounded like a guy who meant business. I,am sure he still remembers being "shunned" by T.blair etc.So i,am having real trouble believing Watchers statement,also i have not seen him post to defend his position or answer your question. I have to wonder why Watcher would even post something like that. With nothing to back it up or a link for all of us to at least,, look at for ourselves before leaving this forum.A statement like that flys right in the face of "GATA" and would they not have seen this also, including everyone that wants the P.O.G to be crushed down. They would use this as weapon against us big time!!!Personally i don't believe it,**** 1st reason. I don't believe Bobby Godsell would "rollover" i think he has had enough of the GOLD manipulation crowd.***2nd reason is i don't think Bill Murphy is a fool and since the announcement is tomorrow morning theres no way that GATA is unaware of Anglogold deciding not to cover thier hegdes, give me break, i can and will not believe this "rumor" but it does make me wonder where it started and why??? We will find out tomorrow who's right and who's wrong here!!We haven't come all this way for nothing this is going to be a battle royal.We will never surrender!!!! Time to sharpen the Axe. :-> G.T USAGOLD (10/16/99; 15:49:44MDT - Msg ID:16570) Farfel & PH in LA... Many of gold's luminaries are congregating in Denver as this is written for the Denver Gold Group conference which begins, I believe, on Monday. I have not heard anything myself about any announcements but that doesn't mean anything..South Africa still represents a significant amount of the roughly 2300-2400 tons international output despite SA's slow decline -- about 500 tons. Between Anglo and Gold Fields, roughly 300/325 tons is produced by those two companies alone. All of South Africa accounts for about 20% plus of production. So South African producers alone can deliver quite a blow to the hedgers if they so wish. I don't completely understand Anglo's positioning in this thing and haven't from the start. Bobby Godsell to me is a mystery. He fights hard for the yellow metal but his own company has a substantial hedgebook (from what I can gather.) However, if you had substantial reserves and a long term outlook, you might be willing to sacrifice that book for a huge increase in the value of your reserves. Also, Anglo is very diversified now and not just a gold producer. So it has room to move in the interests of South Africa and its stockholders. It is an interesting company. With the recent shakeup in the industry, I don't know what percentage of current production Anglo and Gold Fields command but it is substantial. TRemital -- one of the real experts on gold mining who posts here -- told me one time that these prices could take 25% of the production out of the market if they held at the lower level (Below $275). Nobody until recently ever thought about how much production would be taken out of the supply/demand tables by an increase in the price. A comment I made in my Daily Report, to the effect that Ashanti had to be the first gold mining company to be on the verge of going out of business because the commodity it produced entered a bull market, drew some chuckles and comment. At first I didn't grasp the significance of the comment beyond making an interesting point. A shrewd corporate executive however might get the idea that by reducing output and driving the price up they could force the shutdown of mines all over the world and make them ripe merger pickings, as the Ashanti and Cambior situations so clearly and dramatically illustrate. ( Note that others in the mining industry, particularly Gold Fields, have expressed an interest in Ashanti if the Lonmin deal should break down.) Such a move would also greatly enhance in ground reserves for the unhedged producer or the producer with its hedge book under tight control. Of the 2400 tons produced in 1996, Barrick produced about 100, Normandy 45 and Ashanti 32. I don't know all the companies short the market -- and disastrously so -- but I do know there's enough out there that you could not just create situation where they would be forced to cover, but a situation that could very well put them out of business -- and in a hurry. I would equate a "cartel" with moving the queen to the center of chessboard in front of ample, well-positioned support. The weaknesses have been revealed; its only a matter of having enough capital and staying power to protect your flank. What the Ashanti debacle demonstrated is how fast a company could go from a highly recommended darling of the industry to severe financial trouble and on the verge of shutting down. What would the value of your reserves be IN THE SHORT TERM if you could put 10%-20% of your competitors' production to sleep. Some thoughts on a snowy Saturday afternoon in Denver town............Figures based on Gold Fields Mineral Services Gold 1997 report -- the only reference I have at home.As always, this is all open to comment and refinement.....I don't know if a cartel is forming and the legal, logistical and tactical problems attached, but I will be watching with a great deal of interest as this thing unfolds.I hope GATA has good and reliable sources, because if this is true it could be a major development. I have not seen any verification from any other source, so let's not get too excited until we see something tangible. At the moment we will label it a promising and interesting matter for discussion. RossL (10/16/99; 15:33:40MDT - Msg ID:16569) hedgebooks/anglogold/rumors from the dark side http://www.anglogold.com/ I did a quick search and couldn't come up with a press release from Anglogold saying they weren't going to clean up their hedgebook...Bill Murphy has been touting the stock of Golden Star. Later that stock was trashed by some poster on another forum, and that trashing was repeated here.I suppose this would be a good time to reiterate that nobody should make investment decisions based on posts to this and other forums on the net. You just don't know who to believe. There are agents from the dark side in our midst!!! I tried the link above and it wasn't working for me right now. YGM (10/16/99; 15:13:12MDT - Msg ID:16568) Journeyman & What Gives? What Gives?---from a purely unacademic stance I'd say the answer is simple. A.G. is a member of that most powerful of Institutions, Banking. Do you not think Bankers have more personal money (especially recently) in PMs and Bullion than anyone knows. The end result of this next set of worldly financial crises is probably unknown to them, but they ALL realize "He who Has the Gold, Makes the rules"I personaly don't doubt that the BIS and many CBs' have made more $$$ and Gold thru this entire mess (bubble) than any of the more known culprits, ie: G Sachs et al. Maybe we shall see vast increases in Gold Assets & Physical Holdings by BIS and others in the next round of accounting. Who knows, they can hide anything. Point is the AGs' of the world know the history and the future of Gold better than any of the mortal sheep, and they've accumulated all they can, of that I'm very sure. Now who will Goldbugs turn to for Banking services? Same people, New Rules. Regards--YGMps: remember I said 'unacademic'>(:)) Journeyman (10/16/99; 14:54:41MDT - Msg ID:16567) SIRS FULCHINO & GOLDSPOON, I am indeed honored! Many thanx to Sirs Fulchino & Goldspoon for nominating "WHY GOLD HAD TO GO" (Message ID# 16513) for USAGOLD'S Hall of Fame. It would be a real kick to have my efforts included with those of the "giants" who post here. I have one question: Should "WHY GOLD" actually "make the cut," will I have the opportunity to clean it up a bit? A few misspellings, etc. seem to have somehow ;> crept in. Regards, Journeyman Peter Asher (10/16/99; 14:47:06MDT - Msg ID:16566) hedgebooks/anglogold (Watcher #16549) So, the mining outfits are saying "I'm not covering, not me, got a plan with the hedge book, etc." Sure! The old joke was that the three biggest lies were "The check is in the mail; I won't ----: And -- --- is beautiful." Now we can move to the head of the list "We're not going to cover our short positions." Anyone who believes that, should look into the IPO I'm floating offering shares in the first ever suspension bridge , built over the East River between Manhattan and Brooklyn!Nice try, fellows, But as they say, "Money talks and B.S. walks." Journeyman (10/16/99; 14:37:07MDT - Msg ID:16565) GREENSPAN: Mystery wrapped in an enigma Whoa! That one really got garbled! I'll try again. SORRY! I recently stumbled across Alan Greenspan's essay, very effectively defending the gold standard, somewhere on the internet, but stupidly failed to bookmark it. The essay appeared originally in "Capitalism The Unknown Ideal", I believe, a compendium of Ayn Rand's followers' work. Has it occured to anyone how truly surreal it is that Alan Greenspan, originally a member of Rand's inner circle -- and at least originally a consumate goldbug --- is the Chariman of the Federal Reserve? ....................... ........................................................................... Say you're the most powerful, most influential organization in the world, governments at your beck and call. And you're looking for a CEO. In the past, your business has depended on manufacturing "concept" money which depends on surpressing gold. You can afford, obviously, the very best CEO money can buy in the whole world. You obviously do a THOROUGH background check on every applicant. Would you miss an applicant's early writings, published and widely circulated? How about his regular pro-gold comments, which he still makes, such as: ............................................ ........................................................................... "I'm one of the rare people who share a nostalgic view about the old gold standard as you know, but I must tell you I am in a very small minority amongst my colleagues on that issue." -Alan Greenspan to US House, July 22, 1998, 11:45am ............................................................ .......................................................................... Do you pick someone who has EVER advocated or defended your anathema, the gold standard? True, Greenspan is articulate, etc. -- but there must be other candidates equally as articulate who NEVER espoused the gold standard and would never even consider it. What gives? ........................... .......................................................................... Regards, Journeyman Journeyman (10/16/99; 14:28:17MDT - Msg ID:16564) SIRS FULCHINO & GOLDSPOON, I am greatly honored! Ideal", I believe, a compendium of Ayn Rand's followers' work. Has it occured to anyone how truly surreal it is that Alan Greenspan, originally a member of Rand's inner circle -- and at least originally a consumate goldbug --- is the Chariman of the Federal Reserve? ....................... ........................................................................... Say you're the most powerful, most influential organization in the world, governments at your beck and call. And you're looking for a CEO. In the past, your business has depended on manufacturing "concept" money which depends on surpressing gold. You can afford, obviously, the very best CEO money can buy in the whole world. You obviously do a THOROUGH background check on every applicant. Would you miss an applicant's early writings, published and widely circulated? How about his regular pro-gold comments, which he still makes, such as: ............................................ ........................................................................... "I'm one of the rare people who share a nostalgic view about the old gold standard as you know, but I must tell you I am in a very small minority amongst my colleagues on that issue." -Alan Greenspan to US House, July 22, 1998, 11:45am ............................................................ .......................................................................... Do you pick someone who has EVER advocated or defended your anathema, the gold standard? True, Greenspan is articulate, etc. -- but there must be other candidates equally as articulate who NEVER espoused the gold standard and would never even consider it. What gives? ........................... .......................................................................... Regards, Journeyman PH in LA (10/16/99; 13:28:26MDT - Msg ID:16563) Sunday's bombshell announcement from GATA ??? http://www.egroups.com/group/gata/256.html? Bill:Check out the URL above. RossL (10/16/99; 13:17:19MDT - Msg ID:16562) hedgebooks/anglogold Watcher said:"Yesterdays press announced that anglogold would not be settling its hedge books at this time .The reason being that they think the prices at time in gold are in their opinion unsustainable.It seems clear now that they have come up with other arrangements to now offset the risk of an upside move in POG.To see what happen to ashanti and remain that hedged would not make sense. A move to a 600 dollar pog would be destructive if not a death blow."Watcher, where did you get this information? According to the latest Bill Murphy/GATA message, AU was one of the group pushing for a gold "cartel"... Bill (10/16/99; 13:17:13MDT - Msg ID:16561) Sunday's bombshell announcement from GATA ??? PH in LA. Just curious to hear about this. Glad everyone is ok down there in LA. Didn't feel anything up here in Sac of course. nickel62 (10/16/99; 12:46:31MDT - Msg ID:16560) Thanks Black Blade for info on Inco and Dayton Mining I didn't know the current management of Dayton had a background at Pegesus Gold. The current management was brought in by the revolting shareholders about fifteen months ago when they won a shareholder proxy fight against the McWatters/Minorco group who had taken the company after the disappearence of the origional founder.I am uncertain of the exact significance of the managements recent purchase of additional puts during the recent run up in golds price. They must have thought the price was going to go back down. i hope they have listened to the changes in the market and don't seek to hedge too much more in the future. The news in the third qurter press release that they are hoping to pay off the last of the debt by the first quarter of next year. For long time owners that would be a welcome event since the heavy debt load left by the prior management led to the collapse of the stock during the last two years. with 351,000,000 million shares outstanding it is going to take higher gold prices to get this stock moving,but it seems to be trading about 1 million shares per day which should clean out most of the weak institutional holders who just want to forget they ever bought this stock. The new shareholders seem to include some savy investors which I take as a positive.The total market cap is about thirty million and no debt. The market capitalization in 1996 was north of hundred million.Gold of course was north of $400/ oz. Anyone who has any knowledge of the available gold supply on the Andacollo property in chile this would be very helpful in analyzing the current upside potential.The stated reserves had to be reduced if I remember correctly from about 1.2 million ozs. of gold when the gold price dropped through $350 / oz and large parts of the open pit reserves where no longer veiwed as being economic at the lower gold price. If gold does reverse anfd return to the higher 300's then the stated reserves could be reversed and increased from the 800,000 oz level of the current enviroment to somewhere near the prior level. Is there anyong=e who knows enough about this prroperty or open pit mining in general to say whether or not the reservse would have been permently lost do to the necessary high grading that would have most likely gone on to keep this small producer going over the last several years.I know at one time they were talkking about a super pit improving the total economics of the Andacollo property. I guess this was dropped in the crisis that has consumed the last two years. As far as Inco Voisey Bay is concerned it was origionally touted as being worth $30-$40 /share when the mine went into full production. That was with a capital investment of about $1.4 Billion US to build the mill'smelter,refinery? and inferstructure of the mine.It seems to me that if a large portion of this capital investment is no longer needed that the return to both the inco shareholders and the Inco Voisey Bay shareholders should be higher and realized sooner than previously thought. The savy investors Franco Neveda/Euro Nevada picked up the Freidland block of twenty five percent ownership when the stock of Inco Voisey Bay was trading at $3.75 about a year and a half ago.The stock is currently $7.00 US and has about 26,000,000 shares outstanding that is a little less than Inco paid Diamond Fields for the property in august 1996. About 82% less.Anyone that has any insight into this current situation and whether or not FN has increase their ownership would be appreciated.Freeport McMoran Copper and Gold seems like a screaming buy to me with both copper and gold likely to increase price over the next several years.The government is going to be reticent to nationalize this property if they want to continue to attract the needed capital not only in the mining sector but the much larger oil sector. Most international investors would look askance at a grab of the Grasberg assets,but I'm sitting in the US and am perhaps misreading the situation in Indonesia. Any help would be appreciated. Tanglewild (10/16/99; 12:16:56MDT - Msg ID:16559) Cambior news http://cambior.com/english/1_releases/index.htm Looks to me like they're in pretty deep...This is a news release from them 10/15 concerning hedging elevator guy (10/16/99; 10:26:35MDT - Msg ID:16558) Earthquake! Thanks for you sentiments, Goldspoon. The earth was at first violently fluttering up and down, vertically, rattling windows, and jiggling things about. Then the earth started kind of a rolling motion, and you could feel the house sort of tip back and forth. The water in the pool was a good indication of this. As the earthquake started, the water was agitated, without long waves. Then as the earthquake progressed to a rolling motion, the waves sloshed from one side of the pool to the other, growing longer in unison, and spilling much water onto the concrete deck. Once, during an earthquake, while in a 12 story building in Anaheim, looking out at the earth, I could see the "waves" of earth movement, causing phone poles and structures to dance in concentrated bands, as ripples of surface earth movement sweept through the terrain. When you are on top of the epicenter, you feel an up and down motion. This causes ripples of wavy motion away from the epicenter. Imagine a pebble dropped into a pool of water. Thats it! But of course this effect is not true to all earthquakes, depending on a myriad of variable factors. Well, I don't know if anyone is interested in the "flavor" of earthquakes, but there it is. Makes a lot of windfall elevator work for us. But this one was in the boondocks. -Shucks! Can we get set up in time for the gold cartel?How fast can you get your house in order for the changes soon to sweep over the world?Kind of makes me shiver! Go gold! Black Blade (10/16/99; 10:22:37MDT - Msg ID:16557) Nickel62 and Inco I hold a few shares of Inco. They are continuing with their exploration projects in Labrador. The question of building a smelter and mill site operations while under the current nickel price environment continues. They would rather mine and ship concentrate to existing operations until the price inmproves. The government didn't like the idea, meanwhile the unemployment picture in Labrador is still dismal. The Thompson Mine is continuing with closure operations, and a strike may or may not be imminent at some of their operations. I haven't heard much else since last month.Dayton (DAY) Produces at $195/oz and has the Andacollo Mine in Chile. They expect to mine 138000 oz next year. I think that they have a few former Pegasus gold people involved (Pre-bankruptcy). They seem to be well regarded. Hedging Status The recent increase in gold price and accompanying volatility has raised concerns in the financial markets with respect to gold company hedging programs. Dayton's hedge position is structured to provide downside protection while not significantly limiting the upside. This has been accomplished primarily through a program of puts which expire at the end of this year. During the recent rally in the gold price, Dayton acquired an additional hedge position of spot deferred contracts equivalent to approximately three months gold production or 5% of reserves. As at October 12, 1999, Dayton's gold hedge position consists of 21,000 ounces of puts at US$340 per ounce and 35,000 ounces of spot deferred contracts (priced between US$260 and US$301 per ounce) at an average of US$276 per ounce. Dayton Mining Corporation holds a 100% interest in the Andacollo Gold Mine located in central Chile, and trades on both the American Stock Exchange (AMEX) and Toronto Stock Exchange (TSE) under the trading symbol DAY. PH in LA (10/16/99; 10:02:14MDT - Msg ID:16556) Earthquake Update Goldspoon:Thanks for thinking of us here in LA. I can personally report that everything is fine here... We were awakened at 2:45AM... Scared the cats... No other damage or injuries...Now doing everything possible to prepare for Sunday's bombshell announcement from GATA. All hands on deck!!! Battening down the hatches... Major storm warning... taking all precautions... hoping for the best... PH in LA NORTH OF 49 (10/16/99; 09:57:39MDT - Msg ID:16555) AREM, Bonedaddy, and Leigh http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/whiteunbus.htm Good Morning folks. I should know better that to stick my nose into another Countries business--especially politically orientated, however, your posts concerning Executive Orders (Especially yours Bonedaddy, conderning UN intervention and gold confiscation) brought to mind a URL I had seen about 6 months ago. The above link is not the one I was looking for, but for your information, this is of the same context. The one I was searching for, which I evidently deleted, contained several aerial photos of literally hundreds of vehicles in this same compound.Just a little something to get the paranoia juices flowing!No49 Trebor (10/16/99; 09:42:00MDT - Msg ID:16554) The value of $10,000 bill FOAWhen the $10,000 bills were in use the dollar was convertable at 21.47 $/ozThis means that at current gold pricesthe $10,000 in 1910 has a 1999 value of $150,000 Leigh (10/16/99; 09:29:36MDT - Msg ID:16553) Bonedaddy, AREM Good for you, Bonedaddy, for helping out the cause of executiveorders.org. You're right; they are keeping tabs on us. There are times when this frightens me, but I try to keep my mind focused on our Founding Fathers, who had to endure tremendous suffering to make our nation free. Our battle for freedom will not be won without persecution and even death. However, we cannot shrink back; we must fight loudly and publicly for freedom. Let's don't make Ron Paul and his supporters fight this battle by themselves! canamami (10/16/99; 09:27:29MDT - Msg ID:16552) Question re Contest This is a question for MK and Town Crier, which I had intended to ask at the time of the last contest. Does "midnight, Sunday, October 17, 1999" mean the cusp between Saturday and Sunday, or that between Sunday and Monday?Thank You. Goldspoon (10/16/99; 09:19:21MDT - Msg ID:16551) elevator guy...PH in LA Hope everything is fine and will be OK keep your head covered for awhile... my prayers with you all...Goldspoon....London train wreck, Mexico floods, New York virus and Market crash, a major volcano eruption is close...Goldspoons bones.... Major Cities are still in peril..with events continuing to escalate.....My prayers are with you all.. God Bless and keep you from harms way....Goldspoon... nickel62 (10/16/99; 09:07:50MDT - Msg ID:16550) Thank you Gold Power and Megatron For your help. My knowledge of goldenstar goes back to when the company was run by David Frenel and David Fagan both of who have left sometime ago. Is there anything left of the former properties that this company used to control. Atna Resources and Expatriate Resources used to control the Wolverine Deposit in the Yukon and last I heard were trying to merge it into the Cominco discovery next door that had a lower grade 12 million ton discovery that didn't have the high selenium problem this would have the potential of making the very high grade Wolverine deposit processable by blending it with the ore of the Kuth de Kayah (Cominco's) deposit.These deposits were valued at over a hundred million dollars US in 1996. The last I heard was a press release several months back saying it" was only preliminary" whatever that means. The Freeport McMoran Copper and Gold property is in Irian Jyia a contested island in Indonesia so the political risk is significant but the copper and gold deposti is one of the richest in the world and is also the largest tax payer in Indonesia. Seems to me the very large and extremely underpopulated Irian Jyia might well be retained by the military government in the new "democratic" Indonesia. As far a confiscation goes I would love to hear comments from any knowlegable posters because in my opinion this is the major risk of this property. The cash cost of the copper from the deposit is supposed to be around 12 cents US with the world price of copper around 80 cents US.Of cousrse this is after the value of the gold that the ore contains is credited against the cost of the copper. Seems to me with the rest of the world copper production consolidating Phelps Dodge/Cyprus/Amax/Asarco? and world wide copper use recovering, analysis of this stock seems worth while. Especially considering the risks of some of the unproven juniors that are being recomended currently.I have been told by management that the Voisey Bay property might well progress this fall especially now that the political situation in Labrador had been ameliorated by the successful re-election of the main protagonist. The bad news is that the amount of the production probably would only be half the origional production target. Even this amount would be very profitable if ther is no cost of the construction of a smelter and refining investment required.Anyone that can add to this your information would be greatly appreciated. True capitalism needs informed investors.What better time than now to be informing ourselves when all of us benefit. watcher (10/16/99; 09:01:16MDT - Msg ID:16549) hedgebooks/anglogold Hi all,Yesterdays press announced that anglogold would not be settling its hedge books at this time .The reason being that they think the prices at time in gold are in their opinion unsustainable.It seems clear now that they have come up with other arrangements to now offset the risk of an upside move in POG.To see what happen to ashanti and remain that hedged would not make sense. A move to a 600 dollar pog would be destructive if not a death blow. Barrick gold has also declared they would not cover and that all hedge books are not created equal.Sounds like an excited school girl who cannot yet reveal who her new boyfriend is but just can't keep quiet. One answer is that they are not worried about their hedge books because their banker and boyfrien is the fed The fed in allowing or making the POG go up has exposed the vulnerability of hedging such as ashanti gold and is arranging to buy their hedge book in an arranged deal. If the offer they are proposing is to buy their book for a future delivery and to protect them from the downside this would fill their coffers with gold with future supply for years to come as they go from company to company making these arrangements. This would be a good time and price to do this as most hedges are under water or the company doesn't have the funds to cover them. Anglo gold gave the cold shoulder to Bill Murphy of GATA and this might be the answer why . I don't believe that every deal is the same and the offer to each company is probably based on their books . Once this process is completed in the not to distant future then the price will be allowed to rise again. The last few days has shown that they are still able to control the price to some degree with probably the help of friends. Comments or input welcomed always. Goldspoon (10/16/99; 09:01:03MDT - Msg ID:16548) Good Doctor Phos.... Your Prognosis is a most interesting one...obviously from one of the finer schools of thought and advanced Medical Science and Learning....Me thinks Doctor Greenspan has mistreated this paitent to such an extent as to constitute Malpractice??? The medications he has perscribed only served in hiding the symptoms of a high fever inflation virus.. All the while an infection was allowed to rage and get progressively more dangerous... He saw troubling warning signs but was preplexed as to what to do..He then tried to talk the patient into being well...Dr. Greenspan said to the patient "It is obvious you are delerrious and suffreing from irrational exeuberance"... However my diagnostic tools can pick up no signs of inflation.... this puzzles me.. it must be a new strain and it's detection is difficult.... However i fear you are sick none the less... So take a little interest rate hike and call me in the morning....and try not to get to excited"..Doc Goldspoon says..The paitent will suffer gravely from the inaction of DR. Greenspan... he was correct.. it is a different strain of the inflation virus... it is systemic.. and will agressivly flare up all over the patients body at once...it is a sneaky strain..positioning itself under the nose of DR. Greenspan masked by higher productivity, economic relocations, company restructuring and the Asian contagin... The mistreatment by Dr. Greenspan of the disease may prove to be fatal...the patient is very ill and in deperate need of an imeadiate Gold shot....Doctor?? Bonedaddy (10/16/99; 08:42:29MDT - Msg ID:16547) Arem, Thanks for the link! Everyone, please, we will have to fight this battle eventually. Tactically, we have a much better position now. Please use the link to contact your member of Congress. Then forward the link to as many friends, in as many different states as you can. This is a referendum on the clinton presidency and all presidents to follow. One man cannot control this much power. I guarantee you that your lives will be impacted by your choice, for better or for worse. And probably sooner than you think. You're already "marked men", the powers know much more about you than you would wish to believe. The UN will come for your gold, standing in your front yard, shouting orders at you in a forigen tongue. Begin the fight, here and now! Trebor (10/16/99; 08:39:54MDT - Msg ID:16546) Test Test Goldspoon (10/16/99; 08:19:53MDT - Msg ID:16545) ORO Congradulations Sir.. on your book aspirations... You have a keen mind with much to share... Your book would be a slow reader though... You compress so much knowledge in such little space... This causes me stop and ponder on my own with each new concept...Elaberate more on the concepts (assume i know nothing of which you speak)... Just constructive criticism... i will purchace a copy and read happily cover to cover... advice taken or not...Best Wishes...Goldspoon Phos (10/16/99; 08:16:36MDT - Msg ID:16544) Contest >>>>=====$308=====>It's only a guess. The stock market seems to be coming down with a bad case of bubble inFLUtion and is starting to look a little pale. Dr Greenspan had provided a couple of vaccinations to avert this but it was too little, too late. He wasn't even sure that there was any bubble inFLUtion around. But it looks like there was some just around the corner, and the stress of all that bubbling had damaged the immune system and it looks like the disease might be progressing. How virulent is this version? Another vaccination now could do more damage than good and put the patient in the hospital, so the good doctor has put it off. Last time (1929) the patient ended up in intensive care. Now, poor old gold had just started getting better after a long bout of shorting fever (with extensive bloodletting/leasing). The CB quacks bled the poor devil until he was a basket case but finally decided that it wasn't good policy, the patient might not improve, and removed the catheter. Now that he is finally in recovery, a new infection comes along to challenge his wasted body. And he is still fighting off the shorting fever. I fear he may catch the inFLUtion from the other patient for a while but I am sure he will strengthen later and grow into a strapping lad we can all be proud of. Mind you, I hope he doesn't catch it at all and just keeps improving. Goldspoon (10/16/99; 08:09:38MDT - Msg ID:16543) 2nd nomination Journeyman (10/15/99; 19:47:38MDT - Msg ID:16513)Congradulations... Sir Journeyman.. your observations on history are enlightening and well written.. let it be known that i also wish to capture this nugget in the Hall of Fame... Leigh (10/16/99; 08:01:05MDT - Msg ID:16542) Chris Powell Chris, thank you to you and Bill Murphy. I'm glad to be back in lemetropolecafe.com. You guys are heroes, and I hope you have a wonderful weekend! Goldspoon (10/16/99; 08:00:30MDT - Msg ID:16541) Leigh...thanks for the help Leigh says....Doc GoldspoonDear Dr. Goldspoon: It's CANUCK, not me, who has a tummy ache tonight. He's probably been feasting on his Y2K stash of candy bars.Goldspoon says...Leigh, thanks for being my wonderfull stage assistant!!! and for helping me demonstrate to others and provide some levity as well. i know you understand and are at peace...i just enjoy your company on stage...you are always frank and say exactly what is on your mind... i find this refreshing... You make me and many others smile....My message was aimed at Canuck,Canami and others....sorry if i took to many liberties...Profound wisdom from Leigh..."Owning gold is a very comforting thing. All of us can rest easy tonight, next week, and throughout whatever Y2K brings knowing that we have coins that are "payment-in-full." They're also extremely beautiful and desirable. I truly feel for those who are suffering and fearful tonight, but I can't help wondering whether even now they would believe the truth about gold. You know, I think the problem with a lot of people is that they have no imagination -- they can't imagine a world that might be changed at all from what it's like now. The world has to actually change and they have to see it for themselves before they can even begin to believe what we're trying to tell them -- and then it'll be too late." Canuck (10/16/99; 5:54:50MDT - Msg ID:16540) To: Hipplebeck, Journeyman, PH in LA, Goldspoon, Leigh & Goldspoon By now you all know that the U.S. Producer Price Index figures released today were far more bullish for gold than anyone imagined. The dollar was beat up and the equity markets were trounced around the world, yet gold was allowed to rally only $2 by certain malign forces. If that did not hit you over the head today about what we are dealing with, get a checkup with a top brain surgeon. Our camp has been victimized far too long. I would like to echo our sentiments: WE ARE MAD AS HELL AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee certainly will not stand for the government bailout of the cartel that has ruined so many companies, shareholders, and miners to suit its own greed. Thanks for the words of encouragement last night, it helped.Farfel,You nailed it pal!! Excerpt from Gata Msg #256-----------------------------------------------------At 7:50 a.m. Central Daylight Time on Sunday morning GATA and the "right flank" will make an important announcement to every gold company shareholder in the world. -END------------------------------------------------------I had a feeling that my ranting and raving last night wasa waste of energy. The Gata msg above contains a paragraphor two of the 'unexplained' non-movement of gold yesterday.All,Saturday morn 7:45 am Eastern, looks like a cool, crisp golden day. Have a nice week-end!!Canuck Leigh (10/16/99; 5:32:55MDT - Msg ID:16539) AREM Thanks for your link to executiveorders.org. I used it this morning to send an e-mail to my Representative. To all: The website is very easy and FUN to use, and this is an extremely important issue for us to pursue. elevator guy (10/16/99; 4:05:04MDT - Msg ID:16538) Earthquake! Did I mention that it was 2:45 in the morning? (Middle of nappy time) elevator guy (10/16/99; 4:03:42MDT - Msg ID:16537) Earthquake! We just had a big earthquake out here in the LA area. It struck about 2:45 local time. As I am writing this, the house is rolling once more, during an aftershock. What a wake-up call! Did anyone else feel it? AREM (10/16/99; 2:51:08MDT - Msg ID:16536) Fight Back Now - Before It's Too Late! http://executiveorders.org/ With the looming market crash and Y2K ahead of us, there is a high probability that our government will be taking drastic steps to curtail our freedoms, confiscate our gold and our guns and maybe even other assets. However, it is doubtful that these tyrannical actions will be enacted by congress. Most likely they will be done by our benevolent President using Executive Orders. The following are a few examples of Clinton's Executive Orders.Presidential Decision Directive 25 enables the U.S. military to be moved under U.N. command without congressional approval. Executive Order 12919 directs cabinet officials to take over all aspects of the economy during a declared state of emergency. It effectively puts the entire United States under the control of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Currently, the U.S. operates under 14 states of emergency. Executive Order 13133, titled "Working Group on Unlawful Conduct on the Internet," was issued Aug. 7, 1999, stipulating that a group of agency heads will define "unlawful conduct." President Clinton has signed over 300 executive orders since assuming office in January 1993. The number doesn't include the presidential directives (which are kept secret), the various initiatives -- such as the Clean Water Initiative -- that also provide a way for the administration to make end runs around Congress and justify federal intervention in state and local governments. By using executive orders and declarations of emergency, President Clinton is vastly increasing the power of the national government over us. He is also concentrating more power in his hands alone by taking the legislative power that rightfully belongs to the 535 men and women of the United States Congress.With each stroke of his pen, he is effectively rewriting our Constitution. He is, with each stroke of his pen, effectively erasing the sacrifices made by American troops throughout our country's history who defended – not rewrote – our Constitution"The only solution is a comprehensive bill -- authored by Rep. Ron Paul. It is HR 2655 -- the Separation of Powers Restoration Act." Paul introduced HR 2655 this July, with co-author Jack Metcalf, R-Wash. It builds on House Concurrent Resolution 30 which Metcalf introduced in March, but which failed to get out of committee. HR 2655 is far broader than its predecessor. If enacted, HR 2655 would: Repeal the War Powers Resolution and end all states of national emergency. Require that treaties and executive agreements purporting to assign powers not amongst those specifically granted to the federal government by the Constitution would be non-binding. Require that the president, in issuing executive orders, cite the specific congressional enactment and the constitutional authority on which it's based. Prohibit delegation of power to a foreign government or international body when no such delegating authority exists under the Constitution. Grant legal standing to individual members of Congress, state officials and private citizens who believe a presidential executive order is unconstitutional. Now, before it is too late, each of us can help to get this House Resolution passed. Click on to the above Web site. It will make it easy to find out if your congressman is a co-sponsor if this resolution, and if not, help you to send him/her an e-mail message urging this action. We're not helpless sheeple, we've got the Internet!!!AREM Click Here to view yesterday's discussion.
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