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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/15/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
tedw
(9/15/01; 23:32:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 61605)
Gold and the shape of things to come
http://www.usagold.com
I have been told that there are 1 billion muslims in the world. While it is true that not all of them are of the insane Islamic Jihad variety, a significant number are.
For the sake of argument let us hypothesize 1%. That would mean there are 10 MILLION radical,fundamental crazies to deal with. How many are actually crazy enough to become kamikazees of one type or another?Again, let us hypothesize 1%. That would mean a 100,000 potential sucidial crazies to deal with. And those spread across the Globe in dozens of different countries. While no one knows the exact numbers, these conclusions dont sound far fetched to me. That being the case (or worse) what are we in store for?
SOMTHING LIKE WHAT ISREAL HAS BEEN EXPERIENCING. Wave after wave of terrorists attacks,followed by reprisals, followed by still more attacks. A seemingly unending cycle of violence.
We seem to be dealing with a type of person incapable of repentance (when was the last time you hear a terrorist apologize for his actions?)
There appears to be a type of Muslim cleric who uses the techniques of mind control on angry young men to persuade them to these acts. Completely hypnotized by these Satanic men, masquerading as representatives of God,these angry young men are deceived into thinking they are going to paradise for blowing up innocent victims. What could be more evil?
I see nothing but a continued cycle of violence in the future. American attacks against those who harbor terrorists may actually create more support for them in some Islamic circles. Yet to do nothing would also encourage more attacks.
Im afraid I cant be optimistic. Retaliation hasnt stopped the problem for Isreal, and I dont think it will for us.
One lone terrorist with a suitcase full of Anthrax or smallpox cannot be guarded against.
Im afraid the shape of things to come is escalating violence throughout the world.
Gold has always been a harbor of safety. For your sake, and the sake of your family, you should have some. Prudence dictates it.
Solomon Weaver
(9/15/01; 23:17:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 61604)
Letter to Mr. President
If anyone out there on the forum has a way to get a little bit of the attention of the people in Washington, maybe you could forward this letter for me.
Dear Mr. President
Beneath the rubble in New York are a little bit more than 100 million ounces of silver.
Silver was once the coin of our great nation, and our new technologies of communication flow along circuits made with silver. Gold is perhaps the metal of wealth, but silver is the metal of technology. These two beautiful metals...symbols of our national strength of wealth and technology.
The silver now buried in New York is unlike any other....it has suffered the same fate as our lost citizens....fortunately for the silver, it is not flesh and blood, and in due time, it will be recovered.
When it is, I would propose the following:
A new medal of bravery and sacrifice, fashioned out of pure silver, and inspired by the olympic metal our athletes earn. This metal shall be given to each of the families of one we lost on Sept 11, 2001, and may also be given to those who we lose in our coming efforts.
In addition, 300 million pure silver medallions of 1/3 ounce each (a little larger than a quarter dollar)with the identical design as the medal of bravery and sacrifice. These medallions may be sold to the public as a sign that a small piece of sacrifice must be made by each of us.
There are also about a million ounces of gold in the same place which could be used to make similar medallions of higher value...perhaps to be given as gifts to members of other nations who come to our aid in this effort.
I realize that certain people hold title to that gold and silver, but have hopes that many or all of them might be persuaded to allow the government to purchase it....after all, were it not for the large amount of money the government will pay to remove the rubble this metal could just as well be at the bottom of the ocean as far as the owners are concerned.
Poor old Solomon
Solomon Weaver
(9/15/01; 22:15:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 61603)
The ill association of gold?
Mr. Gresham
Gold has been so worthless lately that I have a hard time seeing how Bin Laden could do much financing of global mayhem with it.
I am often surprised at how centered this forum still remains sometimes on an American view of gold and all its conspiracies.
Drugs and Oil seem so much bigger to me in that regard.
By the way....if they do rebuild something beautiful on the spot where the twin towers are, I hope they can find a way to make the glass mirror facing to shine like gold.
Poor Old Solomon
Sierra Madre
(9/15/01; 21:49:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 61602)
Educate the kids in the value of gold...
We never talk about kids here. They hold the future in their hands, and for those of our readers and posters who have kids, may I make a suggestion that you put gold coins in their hands.
Gold has a talismanic virtue. It has a deep spiritual connotation. Mankind are fascinated by gold, and have been throughout the ages, in all places. It does seem to me that the attraction of gold is almost "built-in" to the human psyche.
So, let your kids handle it. When you and I are gone, your children will remember that clearly.
Something that did the US a lot of harm, was Roosevelt's prohibition on owning gold. A couple of generations grew up, never having seen or held a coin. That made a kind of empty hole in their education.
That's all for tonight. My best wishes to all.
Sierra.
Tam
(9/15/01; 21:08:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 61601)
Kevin Klombies is calling for $350 gold soon.
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/klombies/klombies091501.html
There are two guys I follow and read every word they write. Steve Saville and Kevin Klombies. They think in a similar way but often come to different conclusions. They are the best I know of. Kevin Klombies has been calling for a lower stock market for 15 months and higher gold. His lastest piece calls for $350 gold soon. And I think everyone will be surprised by how soon, soon may be.
And seasonally it's the best time for both gold and silver. Ignore manipulation, they are going higher. Soon.
uponroof
(9/15/01; 20:55:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 61600)
Mr Gresham
Thank you for your thoughts...
Heard a report that Osama was playin the market before the planes hit. Yup. Shorted some stock that he knew was gonna get smoked by his planes. Not sure if he cashed out yet but I know he was trying to.
Gold is bigger that that a-hole. It is something that all will be after in the coming future given the new rules. The fact that Osama is holding, if he is, is not gonna make a difference when paper burns.
Mr Gresham
(9/15/01; 20:46:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 61599)
uponroof, Sierra, lamprey
One indicator that all of our seemingly-slightly-paranoid vigilance about the Dollar cabal demonizing gold is reality-based, will be if Osama's finances are "investigated" and found to contain any reserves of AU, which he allegedly uses to carry out global mayhem. Then we will be branded all those nasty things you suggested, and will count ourselves wise to have kept our profiles low all these years...
Mr Gresham
(9/15/01; 20:36:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 61598)
Derivatives vs. Physical (The Payments System)
Pardon me, I'm winging it here (so correct me please, but not too harshly), to tumble out my thoughts conjured at a somewhat boring deck party at someone's house at which nothing of interest was discussed...
Suppose I am right about paper markets tanking, and I have winning puts to collect upon. If I sell, then the OCC (Options Clearing Corp.) owes me X dollars.
1) OCC must be solvent.
2) OCC's bank must be solvent.
3) OCC's bank pays my broker, which must be solvent (SIPC?).
4) My broker's bank must be solvent.
5) My broker sends me a check. I deposit in my bank.
6) My bank must remain solvent until funds clear.
7) I cash my check and receive green stuff. It must maintain value, until I can turn it into something physical: food, real estate, or you-know-what.
And that's for a winning bet on market direction. So much for hedging. So much for leverage. The payments system holds up, like a multi-storied building, until it pancakes at the collapse of any of its links.
Ordinarily routine, each of these steps. But like getting a cell phone call out of a collapsed building, or water supply in a city under shelling, the ordinary disappears under crisis.
They have used each clever buttressing of the financial system, to pile on more systemic risk, because somebody carves a buck out of each transaction level. Moral hazard be damned. The fees of today are sufficient reason...
I'm sure I'm overstating the precariousness here, but by how much?
Mr Gresham
(09/15/01; 20:20:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 61597)
John Doe
Your brilliant collection of all the events puts it all together as usual. If that is the correct motivator behind all of this, then we are glad you are with us to present the unified picture. I am not convinced of your picture (and what action would I take?) but I am able to hear it, and I want us to always have all scenarios available to us, so that when evidence arrives, we can sort it into those available, instead of having to re-invent our worldview from scratch in fast-moving times. Thank you.
Netking
(9/15/01; 20:15:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 61596)
Attack 'could come this weekend'
http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily_news/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm
Snippet:
AMERICA geared up for war yesterday with Donald Rumsfeld, the Defence Secretary, warning the country's servicemen that they would be called on to vanquish "powerful and terrible enemies" in the months ahead.
The rallying call came as defence officials said an attack on Afghanistan, which has given safe haven to Osama bin Laden, could come as early as this weekend. . . "
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/15/watt15.xml
-----------------------------------------------------------
Meanwhile the Philadelphia daily news published a photo (per top link)of maybe the true face of evil behind last weeks actions. - Netking
Mr Gresham
(9/15/01; 20:00:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 61595)
Money supply growth
http://www.bearforum.com/cgi-bin/bbs.pl?read=181288
Chart at link.
auspec
(9/15/01; 19:55:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61594)
The Invisible Hand
I do not speak for GATA of course, but Doubt VERY seriously they would spring anything loose during this current calamity. They are way too sensitive to the possible perception that gold is CAUSING current market woes. I, also, look forward to these well timed surprises.
The Invisible Hand
(9/15/01; 19:34:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 61593)
Is Monday GATA day?
I hope I don't come over as unfeeling, sadistic or sarcastic, but GATA said recently that it had a scoop which it would disclose at the appropriate moment before October 09.
If Wall Street reopens on Monday, would that not be the appropriate moment to disclose it?
Again my apologies if it would be improper to suggest this.
John Doe
(9/15/01; 19:27:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 61592)
(our) ignorance is (their) strength
Where to begin. I hate writing these things, but they must be said, and I wish to whatever God that exists that every opinion I express here were completely untrue. I've tried posting these opinions on another forum and they were immediately pulled. Maybe it's just too close to the truth, maybe it's too close to the event, or maybe that forum has a unique interpretation of the first amendment or fear of reprisal, I dunno. Anyway, USAGold, at least for now, seems to remain uncensored. Let's hope it stays that way. Unfortunately, as scarce as Truth has been these past years, the old canard that Truth is the first casualty of war is...well...true.
Without warning, several thousand innocent people were heartbreakingly, horrifyingly, violently murdered in broad daylight and living color on Tuesday. Several thousand wives/husbands/children were left without spouses/fathers/mothers. Additionally, three aging, fully amortized, iconic buildings were totally destroyed or severely damaged. Those are the only facts that will ever be "presented" in this whole ordeal.
Apparently, we've entered WW3.
All modern wars, though couched in blood-lust, patriotism, righteousness, and madness, are calculated events with clear goals. The goals of this war are as follows:
1) Bring down the current, quasi-US-centric monetary order, to be replaced by a single issuing authority.
2) Demoralize the US psychologically, financially, economically, and militarily, thereby completing the overthrow of its nominal Constitutional-Republican form of government.
3) Establish a world army under the direction of a global authority, i.e., a world government, or at least takes massive steps toward that end.
4) Reduce the world population by some meaningful percentage (this might come later, after the war).
5) Secure all remaining global oil reserves, to be allocated as seen fit by the global controllers.
Rather than a "sleeping giant", America is more of a R*thschild/R*ckefeller-owned, carelessly driven, incontinent pack mule, and has been for at least 100 years. The mule has been increasingly stomping about and urinating on not a few nations the past 50 years, and has found a special preference in keeping the Mid East at a low boil. The pack mule has just been kicked in the groin. As has been planned, there will be much braying and blindly kicking about to follow. None of this has been at the request of the citizens of America, for the flesh and blood that makes up this beast of burden are normally quiet and content to mind their own business. But not anymore, not for the foreseeable future.
The attacks were spectacularly, brilliantly, demoralizingly executed, most likely, by de facto Islamic terrorists. But yet, like the Lusitania was "allowed" to be sunk, like Pearl Harbor was "allowed" to be bombed, the WTC was "allowed" to be destroyed. That's the heinous beauty of this technique. Some mindless tools of some other mindless tools, "the enemy", actually do the dirty work and are directly, as opposed to ultimately, to blame. At that point, it is barely necessary to incite the world (or at least the US) to war. The world screams for it. The enemy is then personified (Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler/Tojo, Usama bin Laden) and then, paradoxically, simultaneously dehumanized (a la Kraut, Jap, Towel-headed-fanatic).
This theater of war will consist of several Mid East nations, some/most of them with substantial oil reserves, including Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan and possibly the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Libya, and Algeria. Eventually, China and Russia will likely be involved as either allies, foes, or both. The core allies will be the US and likely Britain. Europe (its eastern border now conveniently semi-secured with NATO occupation) as with America in the prior world wars, will for the most part stand aside until the late middle/end, for it is the keeper of the new monetary order. Japan will probably get to sit this one out, unless China enters as another "enemy".
The possible initial sequence of events could be something like:
- US escalation (large, sloppy bombing raid)
- Terrorist escalation (more iconic monuments destroyed or biological/nuclear event)
- US escalation (overwhelming bombing raid or small yield thermonuclear)
- Terrorist escalation (biologic or nuclear event)
- US escalation (ground forces and eventual quagmire)
- Terrorist and/or Russian and/or Chinese escalation
- US effort in danger of collapse
- UN-led unified international force enters theater on multiple fronts
As war is largely unpredictable, there are many variations to the above. If we go down this path, I truly hope the global social fascists ( I call them Glazis) are as omnipotent as advertised, for this really could slip from their grasp. The last time an all-out conflict was expressed in terms of Moslem vs. Christian was during the Dark Age Crusades. Maybe we've already moved into another Dark Age and we just haven't realized it yet, but undoubtedly, stepping in this direction could well seal our fate in that respect.
Now we know why the lame, conventional remake of the Pearl Harbor story was recently released to theaters. Now we know why GWB was given the election and fitted with an experienced, war-oriented cabinet. Now we know why Boeing's headquarters were suddenly and inexplicably moved out of Seattle (I fear for that city or at least the Boeing facilities there). The insane policy of arming and training Arabic operatives now makes sense. The Clintonian disarmament and intelligence/technology give-away now makes sense. Now the continuous agitation in the Mid East makes sense. Now the ludicrous, senseless ramping of US markets is understood. Now the facade of peace without substance makes sense. Now the excessive debt & derivative burdening of the US dollar makes sense. Now the near-bankrupting of world commodity production and mothballing of US commodity production makes sense. Now the total absence of rational US energy policy makes sense. And now the introduction and timing of the Euro makes sense. The banking/government cartel once again gets off scot-free for mismanagement. "It's the war, everything would have been okay if not for those !@#(*$*&%'s. It's not our fault", complete with crocodile tears.
The curse of studying history is eventually having to bear witness to the same sordid manipulations transpire while innocents are unjustly caused to suffer wherever they may live. The Ministry of Plenty has about bankrupted us with debt; the Ministry of Truth's doublespeak, already abundant, now flows unrestrained from the telescreen; the Ministry of Love is salivating at the new, carte-blanche opportunities for surveillance, detention, and death; and the Ministry of Peace is gearing up for blood and oil and more blood.
"War is Peace"
"Freedom is Slavery"
"Ignorance is Strength"
"Power is not a means; it is an end." - George Orwell, 1984.
slingshot
(9/15/01; 19:26:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 61591)
Attack on our freedoms
Cobra2
Is it possible to absorb the government intrusions on our freedom to obtain our objective which is to defeat terrorism?
Should these intrusions have no Sunset Provisions (From another post) Will there be a Civil War in this country for the protection of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution?
Slingshot
Netking
(9/15/01; 19:26:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 61590)
BR549 - Islam
BR549(61580)Excellent point Sir I was going to mention this a day or so ago. In my country they had a TV interview with some followers of Islamic religion "someone from among them" who also made the point that NO true believer of those Islamic religious beliefs would take anothers or their own life in that way.
CoBra(too)
(9/15/01; 19:11:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 61589)
National Emergency vs Tragedy!
Monday - will be a crucial day, for the financial markets that is, at least to decide the very short term direction - as the long term trend has been established long before 911. Even if the The Powers That Be may have somewhat curbed the Bust after longest Boom of mis-allocated moneys. Though reality was settling in as no one can control markets forever, even as gold as a lever was
left out in the cold.
Monday, will also be a crucial day for the USA, as the patriotic public will crave for retaliation against an invisible enemy. It may offer the President unlimited power in the name of 'a national emergency' as the country's freedom has been attacked.
"War against America", is the unison war-cry of the media following the atrocious and barbaric acts on sacred US soil as it never happened before - and therefor the Americans rally to fight a war! Against whom? Except, they accept a war against their own freedom, liberty and humanity. And then the terrorists may have achieved more than they could have hoped for ... As this will be the day when the world will change in reality!
God bless US all - cb2
lamprey_65
(9/15/01; 19:03:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 61588)
A "full court press" - pun intended
http://www.thestreet.com/funds/smarter/10001093.html
Now for Jim Cramer's cheer at TheStreet.com...
(I have to give Jim some credit though --- it's awful hard to give a rousing cheer while your holding your nose, heh, Jimmy?!).
----
"Larry Kramer, a friend who edits CBS Marketwatch.com, has urged everyone to buy stocks on Monday to show the terrorists that they are not going to win. I agree with that sentiment.
At the same time, I know that I have to be true to what I
would do as a money manager, and I know that performance, not patriotism, is what I am paid to deliver. Patriotism is personal and financial decisions are personal. I cannot urge you do something that I would not think is good for you, and I recognize that any attempt to try to move the market in some direction, any direction, without the fundamentals, will not stand and could hurt you..."
---
Nice try Jim.
slingshot
(9/15/01; 18:53:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 61587)
Goldbugs Choice
Who ever said that the life of a goldbug would be easy?
Sierra has a valid point. Don't fall over Sierra. I have read some commentary as to what would happen if the markets collapsed and one suggestion was the blame would be placed on the Goldbug. It is a possibility. I presume the editorial was written by a goldbug and goes to show that we think instead of react to situations. As we plan for difficulty we lower our fear level. It will be fear that places the blame on us. In that case the goldbug has a choice. To run and hide,or fight. Who? The government? Your neighbor? The percentage of those who own gold to those who do not is in the lower percentile I'm sure. I would like to think that the Goldbug would be the one to turn things around by his saved infusion of wealth. Insuch a negative world, I feel pretty positive.
Slingshot
Mr Gresham
(9/15/01; 18:33:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 61586)
"Buying stocks at the opening"
http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/invest/extra/7853.asp?special=msn
No comment.
lamprey_65
(9/15/01; 18:06:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 61585)
Almost forgot...Sierra
...and you MUST get your weekly dose of smarmy Louis Rukeyser, the man who has found a thousand ways to make fun of and castigate "gold bugs".
lamprey_65
(9/15/01; 17:59:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 61584)
Sierra Madre
Didn't you know that gold ownership is evil and unpatriotic?
Guess we'll have to send you back for some more psychological (de)programming (uh, that means CNBC, CNN, NY Post, NY Times, Wall Street Journal, etc...your choice)
Sierra Madre
(9/15/01; 17:51:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 61583)
Just sniffing something in the wind....
I refer to uponroof's post at 9 am No. 61555 which contains the following phrase:
"These irresponsible actions now create a systemic risk of gigantic proportions as individual investors move to remove gold from the market, quite possibly like never before, and trigger a collapse of major banks around the world."
So, I expect that a collapse of major banks around the world will be blamed not on the previous irresponsible actions, but ON THE INDIVIDUAL INVESTORS WHO MOVE TO REMOVE GOLD FROM THE MARKET.
Do you see what I am driving at?
Sellers will be blamed for the market crash...buyers of gold will be blamed for torpedoing the banks. Crazy, but that's the sign of the times. People kill the messenger, as usual.
I can visualize goldbugs now transformed into evil people, a "threat to our way of life", "sabotagers of our economy".
"Allies of the TALIBAN!"
+++++++
For months and years we have heard repeated opinions that the next "crash" or Depression would be the trigger for a war.
Well, it has happened; we just didn't expect it in this way.
It doesn't look like life will go on as usual, this time.
Did you notice that prudentbear.com has been silent these days? Of course, who wants to hear DISMAL FORECASTS in times of stress? They have very "prudently" been silent. It would not take much to provoke some nut to call them "Anti-American". Sign of the times.
Thanks for reading.
Sierra Madre
lamprey_65
(9/15/01; 17:50:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 61582)
In a word, SICK
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/2163.htm
Here's another patriotic cheerleader...this time from the NY POST.
...Feel like I'm back at a high school pep rally -- Go Team!
(Oh, but this time we REALLY need to win 'cause we've all got BIG money riding on the game and...could ya help a fella get out of some sticky positions?)
The sad part is -- Americans are suckers for the ol' rally around the flag routine....works every time. The economy is falling into a pit - even before last Tuesday - but, BUY BUY BUY!
Last week -
1. Unemployment claims up sharply (higher than expected)
2. Manufacturing utilization down more than expected
3. Consumer confidence down - more than expected
4. Ford and GE warn on earnings
5. Airlines and hotels are, after Tuesday, in trouble.
And how do you think foreign investors feel now about putting their money over here? hmmm.
Yeah, what a bargain ;-)
---
BTW - I have no shorts on, nor do I own any puts...but I do own shares of one insurance company...no, I would not recommend a buy on it at this time.
Gandalf the White
(9/15/01; 17:46:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61581)
ONE should not be sooooo absolute with the use of the word "ONLY"!!!!
BR549 (9/15/01; 12:27:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 61568)
The only mutual funds showing a profit are the so called bear funds. The leading ones are showing 25%+ gains since Jan 1.
=====
BUT Sir Briar'Rabbit look at AmerCent Global Gold which is up over 20+% this year !! (or are you thinking that IT is a Bear Fund ?)
<;-)
BR549
(9/15/01; 17:01:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 61580)
The Fox News Channel gets it right again
Expert in Islam says that The Koran prohibits suicide. That the murderers on 911 were committing a sin via creating hundreds of orphans since Mohammed was protective of orphans because he had no father. That the scumbag (my words not his) bin Laden has used religion to obtain loyalty from his uneducated followers. He suggested an educational program so people here in the U.S. will understand that the suicide bombings of a few fanatics is not representative of true believers in the Koran. We must separate the murderers from the good UAE and other ME people who sympathize with victims of terrorism.
I agree.
BR549
R Powell
(9/15/01; 15:32:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 61579)
What's goin on, what's goin on
www.lind-waldock.com
Here's a message from the Lind-Waldock.com website to explain some of what's goin on.
Lind Message Board
Important information regarding New York futures exchanges and other markets
1. The New York Board of Trade (NYBOT) has determined a tentative schedule for all of its products when trading resumes at its Comdisco Backup Trading Facility in Long Island City, NY and its European trading floor in Dublin, Ireland. The date and times are subject to change. All of the NYBOT markets are tentatively scheduled to begin trading at the exchange's backup trading facility on Monday, September 17, 2001 with the following hours established for each market, NY time: Cocoa 7:30 AM to 9:00 AM --- Coffee 9:30 AM to 11:00 AM --- Sugar 11:30 AM to 1:00 PM --- Cotton 1:30 PM to 3:00 PM --- FCOJ 3:30 PM to 5:00 PM --- NYFE & CRB 9:30 AM to 4:15 PM. Trading for all FINEX products is tentatively scheduled to resume in Dublin 3:00 AM to 9:30 AM New York Time. New York trading is scheduled for the Backup Facility from 10:00AM- 3:00 PM New York Time.
2. Resulting from limitations of New York trading floor capabilities, all existing New York contracts GTC orders that you have previously placed with Lind-Waldock will be cancelled, including FINEX products, which will continue to trade in New York and Dublin. Until further notice, we will be accepting market orders only for all New York markets. Those order will be accepted on a "not held" basis.
3. The LindConnect system will begin accepting orders placed on-line for NYBOT and the COMEX/NYMEX ACCESS system, as well as Chicago markets on Saturday, September 15. Orders placed for an open outcry session of COMEX/NYMEX will be rejected until such time as when open outcry resumes. We will continue to post messages on our web site when we have more information from the COMEX/NYMEX on when and how they intend to resume trading. The access you are currently being provided to NY markets is the highest level that member firms are capable of under these extraordinary circumstances.
4. At this time, it is planned that US equity index products will reopen for trading on the Chicago exchanges Monday, September 17. Open outcry trading of CMEs U.S. equity index futures will begin at 8:30 a.m. Chicago time. GLOBEX electronic trading of CMEs equity index products - the E-mini S&P 500 and E-mini Nasdaq-100 Index will begin at 8:15 a.m. Chicago time. CBOT stock index products for Monday, September 17 are scheduled as follows: Open outcry, 8:30 a.m. to 3:15 p.m., electronic trading on the CBOT A/C/E system, 8:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Chicago time
5. As it did on Friday, open outcry trading of CMEs interest rate products will close on Monday at 1 p.m. Chicago time, rather than the usual 2 p.m. closing, with foreign exchange products closing at 2 p.m. as usual. Also, as it did on Friday, GLOBEX electronic trading of interest rate and foreign exchange products will conclude at 2 p.m. Chicago time on Monday. CMEs commodity products will trade at their usual times on Monday. CBOT Open Outcry Financial products will trade 7:20 a.m. to 1:00 p.m., Monday, Sept. 17. The CBOT A/C/E electronic system will trade financial products from 8:00 p.m. Sunday, September 16 to 1:00 p.m., September 17
6. Please continue to refer to this web site for important updates and scheduling changes.
R Powell
(9/15/01; 15:26:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 61578)
Lamprey_65
Thanks for the info. Incredible!
I've been wondering if misplaced patriotic fervor would ramp up the markets next week. I believe your right in thinking the insiders will encourage this and then sell into it at higher prices.
However, perhaps if they rally high enough, I'll also be forced to buy. I'll buy an October mini-S+P put!
Rich
megatron
(9/15/01; 15:19:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 61577)
sad but true
As far as I can see the most patriotic thing any American could possibly do is launch or join a class action lawsuit against the COMEX and the FED. That litle stunt on Fri. was so unbelievable, even the Hunts must have been shocked.
BUT! BUT! BUT! NEVER FORGET, THERE ARE NO CONSPIRACIES,WHAT YOU SAW TUES DIDN'T EXIST. NO ONE APPARENTLY IS SMART ENOUGH TO ORGANIZE A SOPHISTICATED PLOT AGAINST GOLD OR ANYTHING ELSE. CAN YOU BELIEVE ANYONE SAID THAT?
lamprey_65
(9/15/01; 14:58:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 61576)
Once again, a TOTAL LACK of SHAME!
http://cbs.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B7F39B936%2D33AF%2D45CB%2D8619%2D2628513E1513%7D&siteid=mktw
Let's see, I should buy stock to TRY and prop up the markets so the big players won't lose their you know what's and they can later sell out at better prices becauses the economy STINKS and is getting WORSE!
I think I've seen it all now (I hope).
Netking
(9/15/01; 14:33:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61575)
Continental Airlines - "Airline financial crisis, schedule down 20%, employees to reduce 12,000"
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010915/bs/attack_airlines_continental_dc_2.html
A little more(& a link) on what Cavan Man mentioned in #61570, this after Ansett(in Au)layed off 16,000 in the last 48 hrs(http://smh.com.au/news/0109/15/national/national1.html)
------------------------------------------------------------
Snippet:
Continental Airlines, the nation's fifth largest carrier, said on Saturday it will reduce its long-term flight schedule by about 20 percent and will be forced to lay off about 12,000 employees after the hijacking attacks on the United States.
Continental cited a drastic decline in demand for air travel caused by Tuesday's terror attacks and the operational and financial costs of dramatically increased security requirements.
``The U.S. airline industry is in an unprecedented financial crisis,'' said Gordon Bethune, Continental chairman and chief executive officer . . . ."
Black Blade
(9/15/01; 14:09:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 61574)
RE: Gresham - Gen Massood
Snippit:
On Thursday, the Afghan opposition forces named Gen. Mohammed Fahim, an active leader of the opposition since 1973, to replace Massood temporarily. Abdullah said Fahim was named as military commander of the opposition. Massood moved quickly to rally warring factions against the Taliban, forming a northern alliance that has fought to prevent the Taliban from gaining full control of Afghanistan. But animosities within the alliance run deep. The opposition comprises small groups mostly representing ethnic and religious minorities. When it ruled between 1992 and 1996, fighting sparked by internal feuds destroyed vast neighborhoods of Kabul and killed 50,000 people, mostly civilians.
Black Blade: If true - Then let's hope that General Mohammed Fahim is up to the task and can pull the factions together. If the US helps then they could be in trouble as we are untrustworthy and rarely if ever live up to our word.
Mr Gresham
(9/15/01; 13:47:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 61573)
Massood Gone
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010915/wl/afghanistan_massood_15.html
Sounded like a pretty cool guy...too bad.
Black Blade
(9/15/01; 13:36:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 61572)
RE: dragonfly, CB2, annie, etc.
The Ansary article says what I have tried to say. Afghanistan is fragmented politically. The Taliban control most of the country and the people by force. They use fear and force to rule. They have enforced a perverted form of their vision of Islam upon the people. There are mass executions. Women have been prevented from working in the professions. There have also enforced the ancient practice of female castration. The Taliban are fanatical fools who have taken over Afghanistan and most Afghanis would like nothing more than to get rid of them.
Last Sunday rebel general Ahmed Shah Massood, the leader of the opposition to the Taliban's hard-line Islamic rule, survived a suicide bombing attack. Two Algerian Taliban sympathizers posed as journalists and attempted to assassinate the general. He was the most successful leader against the Soviets occupation of Afghanistan and was a grateful friend to the US even though we abandoned him like so many others in the past. The US has a history to abandoning our friends - the Montonyard in Vietnam, The Kurds and Shiites in Iraq, and the Afghanis in Afghanistan. No one in the World trusts the US for good reason.
There have been attacks on Kabul probably in response to the assassination attempt and also to instill fear on the Taliban rulers that the US was responding to the WTC and Pentagon attacks. Rebel Gen. Ahmed Shah Massood leader of the northern-based opposition to Taliban rule, survived a suicide bombing attack Sunday. The Taliban denied any role in the attack. The bombing in northern Afghanistan killed Massood's aide as well as the bombers, two men posing as television journalists. Massood, 48, has led a fractured collection of groups who fought each other when they ruled much of Afghanistan for four years until the Taliban took control in 1996.
Perhaps we would do better to arm and support the opposition if at all because we now backed ourselves into a corner by choosing sides in a region where we have absolutely no business getting involved. Now we have calls to suspend the Bill of Rights (as if that hasn't effectively been accomplished already) and to ignore the limitations on government as outlined in the US Constitution (as if that hasn't effectively been accomplished already). I have said it in the past, the ancient Chinese curse is oh so appropriate - "May we live in Interesting Times."
- Black Blade
Get PM portfolio insurance soon, we could see things get much worse as US layoffs rise exponentially, businesses suffer greatly, and war looks ever more likely.
AEL
(9/15/01; 13:26:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 61571)
Laptop Bombadiers Take Note
http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Glade/1613/
A supplement to Mr. Ansary's article...
Why Do Afghan Children Need Us?
by Yama Rahyar
This page is dedicated to the children's hospital of Kabul.
"Every day the children are complaining that they are cold ... but
we have no fuel, no wood, nothing," says Maulvi Hajji Nasruddin,
administrator of the children's hospital in Kabul, Afghanistan.
The children of Afghanistan need our help.
Because of the current political situation, most of the foreign
aid groups have left the city. After decades of warfare, the
people of Kabul need assistance from us.
The children's hospital in Kabul is in dire need of supplies; the
pharmacy is bare, and with winter setting in, the hospital is
cold.
Workers load firewood onto a steel food trolley and push it over a
mile to the hospital, in order to provide what heat they can. The
only ambulance has been locked away on the compound of one of the
many aid groups that left the city earlier this year.
Children are without shoes, adequate clothing and blankets.
"Every day the children are complaining that they are cold ... but
we have no fuel, no wood, nothing," says hospital administrator
Maulvi Hajji Nasruddin.
"We have no way to get anything. ... We have only God."
And they have you and me. Help us get clothing, fuel, and medical
supplies to this hospital. Your contribution today is badly needed
and greatly appreciated. All contributions are tax deductible.
How Can I Help?
e-mail us
Cavan Man
(09/15/01; 13:02:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 61570)
Continental Airlines
Just announced 12K layoffs.
AEL
(9/15/01; 12:39:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 61569)
Who Is Bin Laden?
http://www.antiwar.com/rep/chuss10.html
Who Is Osama bin Laden?
by Michel Chossudovsky
Centre for Research on Globalisation
September 13, 2001
.....
.....
.....
Concluding Remarks
Since the Cold War era, Washington has consciously supported Osama
bin Laden, while at same time placing him on the FBI's "most wanted
list" as the World's foremost terrorist.
While the mujahideen are busy fighting America's war in the Balkans
and the former Soviet Union, the FBI - operating as a US based Police
Force - is waging a domestic war against terrorism, operating in some
respects independently of the CIA, which has - since the Soviet-Afghan
war - supported international terrorism through its covert operations.
In a cruel irony, while the Islamic jihad - featured by the Bush
administration as "a threat to America" - is blamed for the terrorist
assaults on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, these same
Islamic organisations constitute a key instrument of US
military-intelligence operations in the Balkans and the former Soviet
Union.
In the wake of the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, the
truth must prevail to prevent the Bush administration together with its
NATO partners from embarking upon a military adventure which
threatens the future of humanity.
BR549
(9/15/01; 12:27:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 61568)
Price Fixing
Solomon Weaver (msg#: 61564)—
The only mutual funds showing a profit are the so called bear funds. The leading ones are showing 25%+ gains since Jan 1. The leading volume long fund is down about the same percentage. It has always amazed me that the volume of the stock market has increased so much in the past decade via programmed trading. Volume creates commissions which the stock brokesters love.
One of the primary advantages for those who choose to invest long is to hedge the downside by buying a put. If the underlying stock goes down past the strike price, then although you are losing money on your long position, you will be making money from your options, a fairly inexpensive insurance policy. So if the new rules limit short sales, longs will risk a lot of exposure on the downside. The equity types will rationalize this by malarkey such as "investor's should be in for the long run". The remainder of your questions pose interesting dilemmas for the limit of free trade and controlling the laws of supply and demand which should regulate the market. Once price fixing begins where does it end?
By the way I do not invest in equities, only physical gold which I buy long.
BR549
auspec
(9/15/01; 12:26:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 61567)
Midas' Perspective
Snippet from today's Midas:
It is hard to imagine a less attractive scenario for investors in the stock market. What is worse is that economic conditions are likely to deteriorate sharply from here on in.
The Fed just pumped in $100 billion into the financial system. The inflation implications of this maneuver are obvious. The stark implications for the already over-valued dollar are ominous. Central banks around the world will do what they can to stem the fall of the dollar, but even if they are effective, it will only work in the very short term.
For a very long time Café members have heard it here that it was my opinion that exiting from the stock market would prove to be the right thing to do and that to be heavily invested in gold and the gold shares was the way to go.
Chris Powell and I have spent years now crying out to our political leaders to do something about the gold fraud before some event out of the blue set off a gold melt up that could rock our financial system - due to the massive gold short positions of the short-sighted bullion banks and central banks. We have been paid lip service to date.
Americans have no clue of the gold horror show out there because the U.S. mainstream press embargoed reporting GATA's documented claims to placate the high and mighty bullion banks. The U.S. public is going to be shocked and blindsided when the price of gold goes north of $1,000 per ounce.
Rockgrabber
(9/15/01; 12:24:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 61566)
U.S. Atack, makes good exuse for gold default
When the newspaper price reads $300 but you are not able to buy gold for that price, as there is a "paper price" and "physical price" that will seperate, as has been discussed here. I think this event was seen as pro-active by the cabal. This is what they needed, an exuse for the finacial disaster that has been looming. Now they have it, let it go. Can you now see paaper gold defaulting? If anybody has the figure for how many times greater the paper gold market has been expanded over physical, I would love to see it. I wonder how many people this week will try to leverage even more paper gold over physical gold, and expand it even more. Time to take delivery I assume!
annie
(9/15/01; 11:53:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 61565)
Mr. Ansary's article/CoBra2's comments
I was glad to get the opportunity to read Mr. Ansary's article. I had heard of the "toughness" of the Afghani people, and just assumed that many (of course, not all) were aligned with the Taliban. They are, in a sense, being held hostage in their own country. That is very sad, indeed.
My interpretation of the phrase, "Do we have the belly to do it" was that we will--as he said--have to use ground troops. No antisceptic (for us) bombing campaigns and missle launches. And reprisals via more terrorist attacks. Possible withdrawal of some who are presently allied with us against terrorism. Perhaps even the overthrow of some ME governments that are (too) friendly to the US.
Having lived in Pensacola, FL--a true military town--I have known many military families. These people are keenly aware that not all the people of Afghanistan are their enemy and would be resistant to actions that would involve the killing of innocent civilians. I think that their goal would be to liberate the people from their oppressive leadership.
I have no illusions. A campaign of this magnitude cannot be conducted without any civilian deaths. And having read Mr. Ansary's article, I will be even more cognizant of who these civilians are--a people who have been kicked while down. But I will support a war that is directed at terrorism itself by eliminating as many terrorists as we can identify and hunt down. I do not require that the terrorists be associated with this particular attack--but, for me, those hunted and killed must be terrorists--not civilians.
What I am trying to say, in summation, and I think I speak for many of the "conservative", i.e., pro-military, Americans, is that our military will be trusted to conduct this campaign in as "honorable" a manner as possible--with as few civilian deaths as possible. And, my hope would be, that the people of Afghanistan be liberated and aided in returning to prosperity in every way posssible.
If you're thinking I'm niave--I probably am. But when it comes to war--and this is war--I am like most Americans, I think.
My generation is one that was scarred by the war in Viet Nam and Watergate. We have seen political battles conducted in a take-no-prisoners style. We have seen young men who were drafted to fight "for their country" spit upon when they returned home from battle.
But, finally. I have lived to see patriotism in America. And I do not see it as insiduous, as some may. I see it as a coming together like I have never seen in my lifetime. And I hope that it leads to a good end.
I pray that it will not become a slash-and-burn policy of destruction of the innocent along with the guilty.
Whatever your personal religious beliefs, please join me in that prayer.
Solomon Weaver
(9/15/01; 11:44:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 61564)
Short Questions
RE: The announcement that Wall Street will open Monday with some new rules.
I am just a poor old Philosopher…so these questions are simple.
1. How many average investors really understand what a "short sale is"….I know it took me a little while to really understand how some profit on the down side. (I must admit that the main reason I don't short sell is that I tend to believe in the underdog….so I buy cheap and wait).
2. How many politicians understand that even if it sounds evil, short selling provides a natural mechanism to correct against upside volatility? It also allows day trade structures which provide volume liquidity (always a buyer and a seller to meet).
3. If the regulators have agreed to limit short selling….does that mean ALL short selling…or only some kind of short selling…in if contextual, who decides where the line is?
4. I shall certainly take this to mean that "during the period of special rules" it will not be allowed to short the stock of the large "almost" unhedged gold mining firm that I own shares of (who happens to HQ in the beautiful city of Denver). Or the silver company I own along with Bill Gates….
5. Oh, and I also wonder if this "pro-long/anti-short policy" (for defense of net capital value) will kindly be extended to markets for such important items as coffee, oil, gold, silver, copper, etc. where the producers of those products make livings (and hopefully profits) based on the trade value of the good they produce.
6. I also hope that the short selling rule will apply to the "sale of Euros or Yen as well as Dollars" …
7. And what happens when the go back to the "normal rules"….do they do it all at once in all markets? Do they tell us well ahead of time?
8. Oh, and the last thought….I was just wondering, you know in these times of "out of equilibrium events", if the ability to short sell is an important tool to any hedge funds…you know…maybe if they can't "borrow and sell" they will need to "sell something else they have"…and the effect could be worse in the end.
But I am perfectly confident that those guys who are much more educated than this poor old Philosopher have figured this all out.
POS
CoBra(too)
(09/15/01; 11:33:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 61563)
@ jinx 44 - Bill of Rights -
Great essay - and exactly what I mean.
As I've already heard yesterday by CNBC interview with the CIA Head (I believe)- something akin to depending upon what more liberty Americans may surrender, we'll be able to guarantee more security!
Oh, sure, as now is the time to re-gain liberty and stand fast to the drain of the same - that may be the real patriotic response, as the reality of usurpation of the global economy by misguided administration is leading to slavery. ... and don't let anybody use the excuse of this atrocious attack to back the policy of hegemonial paper currency - even backed by last superpower supremacy - unfortunately ... cb2
jinx44
(9/15/01; 11:06:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 61562)
The terrorists are winning.............from the Vigo-Examiner
The knees of Congress are jerking spasmodically already and we haven't even bombed anyone yet. The real casualty will be our liberty, as it always has. LP
*****************************************************
Sent: September 14, 2001 08:26 PM
Subject: FIGHT BACK WITH THE BILL OF RIGHTS.
September 14, 2001
ALERT: A BILL OF RIGHTS CULTURE IS THE ONLY ANSWER
Black Tuesday and the Passive American:
A BILL OF RIGHTS CULTURE IS THE ONLY ANSWER
"We must give up some of our freedoms to help combat terrorism."
The predictable words -- and actions -- are beginning to spew
from political, military, and law enforcement officials and
their supporters. For safety, for security, for the greater
good, they somberly tell us, we must comply with their agendas.
To be protected from terrorism we must submit to more
restrictions -- on our ability to travel, our freedom from
arbitrary searches, on the privacy of our communications, on
our right to bear arms, on our ability to conduct business
hidden from the prying eyes of government.
* Sen. Judd Gregg (R-New Hampshire) has called for a global
prohibition on encryption products without backdoors for
government surveillance.
* Travel regulators have banned knives on planes. (Does this
mean even the pilots can't protect themselves and passengers
against hijackers?)
* ISPs who were reluctant to cooperate with the FBI's
invasive Carnivore program are now rushing to comply.
* The Senate has, in the wake of Black Tuesday, voted to
increase the FBI's authority to tap the phones of anyone
suspected of terrorism. As we've seen by all these other
random restrictions, we are ALL suspects in the eyes of the
U.S. government.
* Perhaps most ominously of all, the *Washington Post*
quoted House Democrat Leader Richard Gephardt (D-MO) as
making the self-contradictory, but entirely predictable
statement, "We're in a new world where we have to rebalance
freedom and security. We can't take away people's civil
liberties . . . but we're not going to have all the openness
and freedom we have had." The Post
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28636-2001Sep14.html)
then went on to describe how every war or crisis of the last
100 years has been use to increase government power -- often
in the most draconian ways.
Freelance supporters of the Surveillance State are rushing
to urge everyone to comply. One liberal talk show host
responded to callers who complained that Big Brother
policies at airports were a problem, "Big Brother is the
only thing holding us together!"
He offered no evidence to show how Big Brother made us safe
on Tuesday, September 11.
WE MUST THINK FREE, NOT PATRIOTICALLY JERK OUR KNEES
Soon we may be at war. And as always at such times, we'll be
expected to "pull together," "do what our leaders tell us is
necessary," and sacrifice more freedom in the name of
"safety and security" or patriotism. And, as the reality of
the Day of Horror seeps in, who doesn't feel an urge to
strike back, to "get behind our government," to "show those
murdering bastards they can't push Americans around," and to
"do whatever it takes to defend the greatest country on
earth"? -- even if that means sacrificing individual liberty
to "the cause."
Whatever happens from here on out, we need to remember that
Big Brother is NOT holding us together -- that he never can
and never will. We must remember that the kind of
restrictions on the liberties of ordinary Americans that
were entirely ineffective in preventing the attacks of
Tuesday, September 11, 2001 will not magically prevent
future attacks merely because their severity is increased.
What did all of Big Brother's efforts do to prevent
Tuesday's slaughter? The violations of freedom we've already
been subjected to in the name of safety -- airport x-rays,
ID checks, disarmament, body searches, and the whole gamut --
became a sick a joke when the day arrived that we needed
them to protect the country against the world's worst
criminals. In fact, Daniel Pipes of the Wall Street Journal
was quick to point out how the government's reliance on mass
eavesdropping and tracking actually diverted resources from
more effective anti-terrorism methods, such as actually
studying and infiltrating genuine terrorist groups.
Yet now the government proposes a giant national effort to
do more of the same -- to impose more ineffective, wasteful,
and oppressive mass surveillance and restrictions.
New restrictions on the freedoms of non-violent people will
do nothing to make America or the world safer. They'll make
us less safe, as well as less free.
There are at least two reasons for this.
The first is that more restrictions, and more power placed
in the hands of government, will simply, in the long run,
create more rage and therefore more desire to strike
violently. (As we also saw, some restrictions, like those
that forbid armed citizens on planes, also make it harder
for Americans to protect themselves and their country.)
The second is something we observed, tragically, though cell
phone calls from four doomed, hijacked planes: the fatal
passivity and dependence that seems to be becoming the norm
in American behavior.
THE PASSIVE, UNTHINKING AMERICAN
It appears now that a handful of heroic passengers on one
flight, having learned via telephone that two other hijacked
planes had already smashed into the World Trade Center,
decided not to allow themselves to be used as weapons of
war. These passengers on United Flight 93 attacked the
hijackers who were in control of the plane. Doomed in any
case, they ended up dying in the woods and fields of rural
Pennsylvania, rather than passively allowing their captors
to get away with an even more horrendous mass murder.
We also know that, on at least one other flight -- American
Airlines Flight 77, which smashed into the Pentagon --
passenger Barbara Olson learned from her husband, U.S.
Solicitor General Theodore Olson, of the World Trade Center
catastrophe. During two separate calls, Mrs. Olson (a well-
known author and conservative television commentator) asked
her husband what the pilot -- standing next to her in the
back of the plane -- should do.
Picture that. Passengers and crew have been herded -- and
note that word well, herded -- to the back of the plane.
Even the pilot, the leader, the chief decision-maker, does
nothing. Can't think what do to. Can't act. Instead of
attempting to save their own lives and the lives of others
on the ground, what do they do? They expect a federal
government official to make the decision for them. THE
EVIDENCE SAYS THAT THESE PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN FEEL EMPOWERED
TO DEFEND THEIR OWN LIVES WITHOUT FIRST ASKING THE ADVICE OR
PERMISSION OF WASHINGTON, D.C..
And why should we have expected otherwise? Americans have
been told repeatedly never to resist crime, always to submit
to any demand a thug makes of them. Always go along -- for
safety's sake. Go along in order to avoid angering the
criminal. We've been told always to submit, as well, to any
demand made by anyone who appears to be "in charge." These
people on Flight 77 -- and presumably on two of the other
flights -- were apparently so paralyzed by their
conditioning that they couldn't assert themselves even when
the alternative was certain death.
Even as pathetically disarmed as they were, they could have
battered the hijackers with their briefcases, with their
shoes, their purses. They could have overwhelmed them with
sheer numbers of bodies. They could have gouged at their
eyes with fingers or car keys. Could have knocked them
unconscious with luggage from the overhead racks. Could have
tripped them, stomped on them, tied them up with cords from
audio headsets.
But except on United Flight 93, they apparently did nothing.
And so three planes flew, sure and true, into the heart of
three American landmarks, slaughtering thousands.
THE ONLY TRUE SECURITY MEASURE: A BILL OF RIGHTS CULTURE
We must take back America as a country. We must make it free
and independent again -- no longer the would-be ruler of its
own people, and no longer playing at being the world's
supercop. Only by doing that will earn the world's peace and
respect.
We must take our own individual lives and independent
spirits back from would-be rulers and criminals, as well.
If we consent, passively, to give up more freedoms -- even
"temporarily," or "as an emergency measure" -- we'll be
doing the opposite. We'll be less safe, less free.
To restore American freedom and personal courage, we must
restore the Bill of Rights -- in our country and in our
hearts and minds. If we understand the Bill of Rights, we'll
understand what we're fighting for -- and why. If we let it
slip away what's left won't be worth fighting for.
This means not merely having an intellectual or legal
understanding of the Bill of Rights. This means not merely
memorizing the Bill of Rights or teaching it to our
children. This means understanding the concepts of
individual liberty that underlie the Bill of Rights -- then
living those concepts, breathing them, eating the, dreaming
them, holding them as the most central values of our lives,
in the same place we hold our beliefs in the diety, or our
dedication to our families, or to truth or justice.
We must behave as free people, expect and encourage others
to behave as free people -- and have zero tolerance for
anyone who abuses freedom or uses his authority to violate
the Bill of Rights.
If there ever was a time in history to get behind the Bill
of Rights and promote it, it is now. If we yield to this
mushy thinking that the road to freedom and safety lies in
GIVING UP freedom and the Bill of Rights, then we might as
well bow down in defeat right now.
If we don't defend our rights, we'll have no rights. If we
don't defend ourselves, our family members, and our fellow
citizens -- AND defend their freedoms -- then our lives will
be no more valuable than those of cattle and sheep. And the
America we end up with won't be the America we thought we
were fighting for.
If you want to be a passive herd beast -- obey whatever the
authority of the moment, be that a bureaucrat or a hijacker,
tells you to do. Listen to their lies about "safety and
security" and obey, obey, obey.
But If you truly want to combat terrorism or terror-war,
learn the Bill of Rights, teach the Bill of Rights, and
enforce the Bill of Rights with every action of your life.
FIGHT BACK WITH THE BILL OF RIGHTS.
Mr Gresham
(09/15/01; 10:49:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 61561)
Wow!
You guys (so far, it seems, guys) have been great, as I can only peek into the last 24 hours' posts -- and now sentenced to a day of "honey-do's". A bit of combativeness, a touch of intolerance, and some real fine insight and inclusiveness.
America's first political decision-making body: wasn't it the Town Meeting?
As we go "over the falls" this weekend into Monday, I couldn't be in better company. (Sorry to sound like a broken record about that, but -- hey, I really NEED it in these crazy times.)
Cavan Man
(09/15/01; 10:11:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 61560)
SteveH
Steve-The targets selected indicate a desire to topple and de-stabilize the US government, financial system and the military/industrial complex; nothing less. Our enemies hate this country and all we stand for/against; that much is clear. I will concede that our monetary hegemony is most likely on a long list of grievances. However, to shoehorn the rationale for the tragedy into the context of the general discussion here over the last several years is incorrect IMHO although, perhaps I am naiive.
CoBra(too)
(09/15/01; 09:53:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 61559)
CM - Here's the whole of Dragonfly's article
By Tamim Ansary
Sept. 14, 2001 | I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on San Francisco's KGO Talk Radio, conceded today that this
would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're
at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard
some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan,
and even though I've lived in the United States for 35 years I've never lost track of what's
going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm
standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind
that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something
must be done about those monsters.
But the Taliban and bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of
Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997.
Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
think bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews
in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would
come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats' nest of international thugs holed up
in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the
Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt,
incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations
estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in
Afghanistan -- a country with no economy, no food. There are
millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land
mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are
a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not
overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to
the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took
care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already
suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into
piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done.
Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and
healthcare? Too late. Someone already did all that. New
bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they
at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they
have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get
some of those disabled orphans; they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs.
But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals
who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban
-- by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and
trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people
speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having
the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about
killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is
Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way
through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. Because to get
any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely.
The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?
You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: That's bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he
did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would
beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam
and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's
a billion people with nothing left to lose; that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
He's probably wrong -- in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean -- but
the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours.
Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
About the writer
Tamim Ansary is a writer in San
Francisco, and the son of a former
Afghani politician.
cb2 - In the early 60's my dad was Austrian Ambassador to
Iran and was also accredited to Kabul. I've toured the region by car then and have many fond memories of poor, though extremely friendly and hospitable people.
Only upon the arrival of the fundamentalists in Iran 1978 with Khomeini from his exile in Paris the fundamentilists got increasingly more nasty as they tried to subdue whole nations. Remember the Iran Iraq war, fought at the end by teenagers - including chemical warfare, as a lot of the young victims were treated in Europe; And of course, lots of terrible, if not traumatic things have happened since, which has caused terrible misery in the name of Allah to the common man - and the enlightened europeans had Adolf not too long ago.
... Not understandable in the western world, no, though only about 500 years back Christianity had its own type of "Jihad" with the "Holy (Spanish) Inquisition".
No, I'm surely not defending the atrocious attack on the USA and by extension on all of our western civilization, I abhor it and pray for all the victims and America and by extension for our world ... and yes there have to be retaliations, though the targets may be clear ... let's just make sure that they are there for all to see and keep collateral damage contained. We all know how rapidly bush fires spread (no pun intended) ...
Forgive me - as I feel your pain as mine - God bless America and all - cb2
Mr Gresham
(09/15/01; 09:31:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 61558)
"What does Osama want" from MSN's Slate
http://slate.msn.com/Assessment/01-09-13/Assessment.asp
A pretty concise overview. Looks like it's quite a bit more than Palestine vs. Israel to him, which is our myopic viewpoint in the States, so far. A hard bill to fill.
The consolation point is that it looks like he hasn't yet got the support or resources to carry out "re-establishing the Caliphate, the golden age of Muslim domination that followed the death of Muhammad. " IMO, time to reach out to the world of Islam BEFORE that happens for a future Osama after this one gets swatted.
I don't see anyone here as having an "agenda", vs. just an opinion. (That's what forums are for.) If anyone is a representative of any organization trying to propagandize, well, I'm sure you'd just tell us (wink;), right? But I think we already know each other better than that...
My tenuously-held and hopefully very educable opinions come from my problem-solving inclination, which received its greatest reinforcement during software engineering days. ($50 reward per bug swatted) and went on to amateur efforts toward nuclear arms reduction.
Can we count on a "Gorbachev" to come from the Islamic world in this case? Or can the best impulses of America reach out to the people across this chasm?
We've just seen an outpouring of sympathy and, yes, appreciation for our country. They still repose faith in us, despite our shortcomings. This is something to BUILD on, not abuse.
auspec
(09/15/01; 09:26:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 61557)
uponroof
Excellent perspective. There is a chasm of difference between loving the US Constitution and the American ideal and dealing with the current American oligarchy, they are not, unfortunately, one and the same. Some of the greatest current US patriots have taken stances opposed to current govmt policies, stances which would clearly be applauded by our founding Fathers. Yes. unity as always in time of crisis, but not a blind unity. Guilt is only appropriate for an action personally performed, this dollar mess is NOT of our making.
Best,
auspec
Galearis
(09/15/01; 09:17:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 61556)
@ dragonfly, the Ansary article
A rational position, indeed!
Thanks for posting this article. The world needs this perspective in this noradrenaline atmosphere of world tension.
uponroof
(09/15/01; 09:12:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 61555)
Unity yes......
It seems there is some guilt surfacing here regarding the ownership of gold. Some are seeking absolution by stating the reluctance to benefit from their ownership of gold under these terrible circumstances. Some posters are reluctant to criticize the gummint as they did before this crisis and understandably so. Now is the time for unity.
However.....
I would like to point out that like gravity we have been losing our values both morally and monetarily through questionable gummint policies. This loss is IMHO not by accident. If you believe those behind the exchange of gold for paper are doing things in your best interest I suggest you have not been paying attention here. If you believe now is the time to put aside differences and show our faith in the FED and gummint to help create unity I concurr.
The bigger war with terrorist factions is much more important than the one we fight within, but the one we fight within is not going to conveniently stop. Quite the opposite. Gold versus paper is about to play out and it just might be a 'to the death' duel. It's time to pick your gladiator.
With that said I am obviously not 'happy' to be ahead of the curve. I remain however, angry at those in our gummint and business sector who put us in this very vulnerable financial position. Regardless of how this plays out the risk is enormous and it is in no way justifiable.
As a result of 'The Strong Dollar Policy' gold has been intentionally quashed for over 6 years. This has included enormous hedge and derivative positions by 'friends' of the gummint seeking immoral gains while serving gummint interests. These irresponsible actions now create a systemic risk of gigantic proportions as individual investors move to remove gold from the market, quite possibly like never before, and trigger a collapse of major banks around the world.
Should we apologize for the horrendous decisions of these irresponsible entities? Of course not. This surreal crisis is actually more unpleasant for we who saw this coming yet could not convince anyone of our fears thanks to the continuance of stonewalling.
If any posts here sound ghoulish in rooting for profiteering from gold understand that is not the case. We who accumulated in 'times of paper plenty' were ridiculed like Noah. Like Noah, we now may have to move on through the flood of losses. If the occasional 'I told you so' or gummint condemming theme comes through at the expense of unity please try to understand.
I feel absolutely no guilt in what is happening and will continue to speak the truth as I see it. My patriotism exceeds that of those who were anxious to steal individuals wealth and by doing so have placed us at such enormous risk.
Sorry to be so blunt but, to hell with Politcal Correctness and sugar coating the truth.
SteveH
(9/15/01; 08:42:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 61554)
Limb
Cavan Man,
Just trying to simplify the event to a higher level. Take away all the noise, what are we left with?
It is complex because we don't know all the who's, all the what's, all the where's, all the when's, nor all the why's. We do know some of the effects of Tuesday.
Those effects clearly fit the hypothesis of my earlier post. Who had the most to gain? to lose?
What is your theory?
auspec
(9/15/01; 08:25:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 61553)
dragonfly
Thank you for the information in your recent post. It clearly shows how few viable options there are, complex to put it mildly. The US currently has a global mandate for action, may we walk the fine line of not overreaching.
auspec
(9/15/01; 08:19:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 61552)
Sierra Madre
"The poster you love to hate."
NO SIR! Please continue to speak your reasoned opinions, they are welcome from ALL!
uponroof
(9/15/01; 07:55:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 61551)
Airlines under great pressure
http://www.airlinebusiness.com/abwelcfra.html
The airlines industry is under great pressure. C-SPAN just had Mr. David Field, editor of Airlines Business Americas on as a guest. His publication is targeted at senior airlines executives. Mr Fields states the Airlines are losing $300-400 million a day during this shutdown and are likely to lose much more over the coming extended periods of reduced business.
Mr Fields says airline bankruptcies are immenent and in fact airlines such as US Airways and others just under the 'top 4 tier' in the industry are now in serious trouble. He states the gummint bailout proposed will only postpone the inevitable. Mr Fields states that bailouts are merely cash going in one end, and nothing coming out the other. For the airlines to survive long term, a steady stream of customers must be in place.
Cavan Man
(9/15/01; 07:40:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 61550)
SteveH
I'd say you're way out on a limb. I think the motive(S) are much more complex.
Cavan Man
(9/15/01; 07:39:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 61549)
dragonfly
Can you provide a link for that article please?
SteveH
(9/15/01; 07:19:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 61548)
A Message
I believe the events on 911 were a message by the controllers of "you know who" to the Dollar faction to let the dollar go lower and gold go higher. From a macro perspective that makes sense. Why? Because they weren't doing this, in fact, the dollar faction was fighting with every paper asset at their disposal to not allow it to happen. Thus the message in the form of a human cruise missle on top of the the very structure that housed the controlling interests of the dollar faction.
Since the dollar folks were holding on, as it were, they needed a bump or a paradign shift to get them to change their minds about keeping the strong dollar policy going as it was likely to cause bigger problems longer term. The convergence we have discussed in the passed as now come together in this near check-mate-like move against the dollar faction. Lots of moves yet to be made, but the dollar faction was sent and received the message.
We have now gone into protection mode and letting go mode in which we will not let the dollar go without a fight, so to speak. In hindsight, it probably would have had to come to this for the dollar faction to let go, because they had such a good thing for so many years.
This war is about the world reserve currency and the process of changing from the dollar to the Euro. The agent of destruction was a messenger; not the sender.
It would seem that we are focusing on shooting the messenger and not the sender. Let us hope this gets straightend out before the shooting begins.
Thoughts?
dragonfly
(9/15/01; 06:55:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 61547)
Correction
My better half pointed out the error of my using a derogatory word in my last post. She comments that it does nothing to advance my message and actually detracts from the possibility of persuasion of those who for whatever reasons are on the other side of the fence on this one.
She's right again (smile).
Sorry for the slip.
Won't happen again.
dragonfly
(9/15/01; 06:07:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 61546)
Who Has The Belly For That ???
In the interest of rationality I must pass this post on to everyone reading here. I for one would prefer to enjoy the benefits of the small amount of gold I have accumulated in a world that respects life and makes rational decisions when confronted with tough problems. War mongering is not rational. Don't give the WACKOS both here and abroad what they want. It is OUR world and they're just living in it.
-----------------------------------------------------------
This is from Tamim Ansary, a writer and columnist in San Francisco who is a native of Afghanistan. It's both interesting and chilling....
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rat's nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once
again the people they've been raping all this time
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand.
What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers.
If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better
from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
Tamim Ansary
dragonfly
(9/15/01; 05:43:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 61545)
Orrin Hatch Said It Was Worth It
http://msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1
Wonder what he would say now??
Netking
(9/15/01; 01:42:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 61544)
Sharon scraps Mid-East talks
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1545000/1545140.stm
Snippet:
Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has ordered his Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to cancel planned ceasefire talks with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Mr Peres had been due to meet Mr Arafat on Sunday after weeks of preparations, but the prime minister cancelled the meeting on the grounds that it could damage Israeli interests . . . "
------------------------------------------------------------
This comes as no surprise to us. The truces Mr Arafat has agreed in the past have been largely an exchange of lip service. The expression: "What you are thunders so loud I can't hear what you are saying" comes to mind.
- Netking.
BR549
(9/15/01; 01:31:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 61543)
NSA and encryption capabilities
Having dealt with the NSA and ASA when the US had intelligence capabilities, I must be careful of what I post. The assumption that the reason that Cray went out of business was because of distributive processing and the growth of PC's is a fallacy. Cray was under funded and lost government contracts for new system purchases because of intelligent funding cutbacks by Democrat idiocy. Seymour Cray was a genius whom used to work for Control Data Corporation as their Chief designer. The concept was a circular computer system with the Central Processing Unit in the middle and internal memory in a ring around the hub. The concept was to cut back on the travel time for the exchange of data between the CPU and Internal Memory which speeded up overall internal processing and maximized throughput. Cray was a heck of an engineer but not a very good salesman.
Encryption codes such as 128 bit PDP software is impossible to break within a reasonable period of time. Encryption codes that use split keys has nothing to do with the computing power of the code breakers, i.e., at the speed of light the number of computations for a correct solution to an algorithm often times takes years. We must protect this encryption code software capability just as we would any WAR related technology. It is ridiculous to think that if we censor this the world will gain an advantage.
If you listen to that genius Donald Rumsfeld, we must, unlike the last eight years, protect our secrets. The volume of encrypted digital communications makes the deciphering of communications increasingly difficult.
The fallacy that Clinton has ever made a correct decision in reference to our intelligent agencies is even more of a joke. Clinton is the one who de-fanged the FBI, the CIA, the Justice Department, Los Alomos, and via his chief campaign contributor at Loral sold missile guidance technology for ICBM's to the Chinese. Clinton via his lack of respect for the military and disdain for the intelligence gathering capabilities has made this nation ignorant of what the evil terrorists have in store for the freedom living countries of the world.
Intelligence gathering is a secret process, not for the media loving press conference get re-elected Congressmen. It is sometimes a dirty business that requires heroes that shy away from the spotlight of recognition for their heroric and gallant acts.
If we continue to lose our competitive advantage for computing technology and weapons systems hardware to the rest of the world via outsourcing our manufacturing for the benefit of a few dollars of labor cost savings, then indeed we will perish under our own stupidity.
We are at WAR now. The American people are being prepared for a long and costly ordeal. Our young soldiers will die and we will not bomb from 50,000 feet to prevent casualties. We are going to find who our real friends are among the 46 countries citizens that died at The World Trade Center and others. We have new leadership now who are better prepared than any in modern history to eradicate terrorism. The U.S. and other freedom loving countries will be changed forever.
God Bless the U.S.A. and all of our friends and allies around the world.
BR549
Sierra Madre
(9/15/01; 01:10:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 61542)
Thanks to those who see fit to tolerate me!
Here's a late night offering which may be appropriate given that it mentions "The Gods of the Market-Place" and its theme relates to present circumstances - and future ones too, for that matter.
THE GODS OF THE COPYBOOK HEADINGS
1919
As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market-Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn;
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.
We moved as the Spirit listed. THEY never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market-Place;
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.
With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch.
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings.
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promied these beautiful things.
When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: 'STICK TO THE DEVIL YOU KNOW.'
On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbor and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Heading said: 'THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH.'
In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Pau;
But though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: 'IF YOU DON'T WORK YOU DIE.'
The the Gods of the market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew,
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four-
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.
. . . . . .
As it will be in future, it was at the birth of Man-
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began:-
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;
And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
Rudyard Kipling
Courtesy of Sierra, the poster you love to hate.
Good night and over to you, Black Blade!
Black Blade
(9/15/01; 00:54:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 61541)
Politics: Senate passes bill expanding federal wiretap rules
http://www.nandotimes.com/politics/story/78805p-1102711c.html
Snippit:
WASHINGTON (September 13, 2001 11:44 p.m. EDT) - People suspected of hijacking, bombing or other terrorist acts could for the first time find their telephones and computers wiretapped by the government under legislation passed by the Senate on Thursday night.
"Now what you can assert in a request for a warrant is that we think this person is guilty of U.S. Code title such-and-such, a terrorist crime."
Not everyone thought the bill was a good idea. Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., argued that the expansion was too broad and could easily be abused. "If we give up all our freedoms, if we turn our back on 200 years or more of Constitutional history, of the things that make us strong as a nation, some would argue that the terrorists win," he said. Leahy said lawmakers are rushing to do something to respond to the attacks in Washington and New York. "We have to be careful, that in our emotion in the midst of this murderous, horrible act, that we don't start taking away the very freedoms that make us different from terrorists," he said.
Black Blade: It always starts out like this. It will only be used for fighting one crime, and soon it is used against US citizens. For example, create an extremely expensive "Tax Stamp" with severe penalties for noncompliance, then don't make the stamp available therefore making such an activity illegal. For example, pass a law to seize assets on mere suspicion (actually theft by law enforcers). Then steal assets for no reason at all except to profit by theft of private property (in the name of some dubious concept called a "Drug War"). There are now "Secret Indictments" where the accused are arrested by warrants issued by "Secret Courts" and even his/her lawyer are deprived of access to evidence (so much for "Discovery"), and even are not informed of the charges against them. Sometimes they are held indefinitely deprived of "Due Process." We obviously did not defeat the National Socialists in World War II; we simply adopted their methods and policies. This new legislation is simply an extension of these little known laws that already exist. We gullible Americans are so easily deceived and are quick to sell out are birthrights for a few crumbs of security. The USA as we have known it is finished.
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