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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 2/15/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) ET (02/15/01; 22:32:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48350) Russia http://www.ffo.ru/crisis/eindex.html Comments invited! Chris Powell (02/15/01; 22:13:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 48349) South Africa Business Report commentary criticizes GATA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/656 We can take it. They spelled our nameright!To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com ORO (02/15/01; 22:12:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 48348) ET - and tea bottles vs cans Unfortunately for all us beer swillers, the bottle is made using natural gas, just as aluminum is. However, glass is made with cheaper gas in the east, vs. expensive gas in the West, where aluminum is produced.And yes, now we know what importance the price of tea in China has. Chris Powell (02/15/01; 22:12:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 48347) Treasury secretary seems opposed to more bailouts http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/655 Boy, wouldn't that be nice for us andnot so nice for Wall Street?To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Chris Powell (02/15/01; 22:11:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 48346) GATA chairman's full report on visit to South Africa http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/657 Lots of interesting stuff here, and lotsof ammunition for our side.To subscribe to GATA's dispatches by email and get them immediately so you don't have to go look for them, send an email to:gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Horatio (02/15/01; 22:03:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48345) Gates What do you all make of Bill Gates father coming out in favor of keeping the inheritance tax?(He manages his sons foundation) Easy for him to say ,he uses a foundation to shelter his family from taxes.I suggest a 100% tax for Billionares since he is in favor of taxes ........ of course no exemption for foundations.Millionares can be exempt along with the rest of the pions.What a moron.It used to be that sons of great accumulaters of wealth were morons ,now the disease is spreading to fathers of such. elevator guy (02/15/01; 21:49:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48344) @Orville Goldenbacher (02/15/01; 12:11:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 48301) Hi, OrvilleI also have an open mind about these things. But I have to say, that just because something "seems to fit", does not prove its truthfulness.Take for example, the horoscope.Everyday in the paper, there are little sayings like- "You will soon meet an interesting stranger" Well, no kidding. Everyone meets interesting strangers all the time, no matter what their "sign". Further, any one of the various horoscope prognostications "seem to fit" about anyone who reads them, because they all have that same generality that just seems right.Not to say that the Protocols are a hoax. I dont know if they are or if they are not really the plan of some nationalist elite.But I cant accept their veracity just by the mere vague support of they "seem to fit" By this rationale, anything could be taken as truth. Black Blade (02/15/01; 21:26:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 48343) Driving Season this Summer Could be a Repeat http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2001/02/15/rtr186340.html Snippit:The Energy Information Administration, the Energy Department's statistical arm, warned earlier this month that U.S. gasoline supplies will be low going into the driving season and wild swings in motor fuel could result. Black Blade: You may remember last summer when fuel prices rose with higher oil prices. There were demonstrations by truckers in the US and in Europe. We could very easily see a repeat this summer. Higher costs of transportation combined with higher energy costs will come out of consumers pocketbooks. Industry has already felt the pressure with lower earnings and declining profit margins. This cannot go on unless Wall Street feels comfortable with sharply lower equities values. This IMO will be unacceptable and the markets will come tumbling down. The only choice is rising prices leading to increased inflation. Simply put, the bogus spin on inflation provided by the BLS will soon be exposed for what it is. The manipulative statistical trickery of voodoo statistics such as Hedonic Pricing/Deflators and Seasonality filters will be ignored and viewed with suspicion. This morning I had breakfast at a local establishment and I overheard a small group of seniors complaining about their 38% increase in utility rates. I could only think of how they were being abused by the government through the BLS as their social security COLAs would not be rising in tandem with the true rate of inflation. ET (02/15/01; 21:12:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 48342) ORO Hey ORO - thanks for clearing up that age-old mystery of "what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?"I always suspected it would turn out to be labor related. <g>I'll now be watching closely to see if American beer manufacturers start pricing canned beer higher than bottled beer. I can't imagine Joe Sixpack paying up for canned beer if bottled becomes cheaper. Maybe keg parties will make a comeback!Dontcha just love economics. Black Blade (02/15/01; 20:41:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 48341) @ Randy and TG While reading your posts tonight, I recall that there was a call in some quarters for the Euro to be backed with 30% gold reserves, up from the initial 15%. I don't know if that was ever decided or not. However, with the falling POG, does the ECB "rebalance" the books by acquiring more gold to maintain a given percentage of Euro backing? This would necessitate more gold purchases or deliveries from member CBs or from other official sector sales. I am unaware of how the Euro reserves are kept in check as far as the reserve backing percentages are concerned. This could have an effect on gold prices, albeit perhaps a minor one. Anyway, this thought just occurred to me while going over your posts. BTW, thanks guys, you do a great job.- Black Blade Chris Powell (02/15/01; 20:29:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 48340) Trial Guide's latest Dear Trail Guide:I very much appreciate your latest andam thankful for the education I feel Ihave gotten from you. I do largely shareyour perception of the paper gold market.Still, I think the physical side can usethe help GATA is trying to provide, andthat the rights of gold mining companyshareholders against price manipulationby governments and bullion banks areworth defending. If GATA can help overthrow the gold paper market, will younot welcome it?With good wishes.CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/TreasurerGold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc. LimitUp (02/15/01; 20:15:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48339) THE REAL STUFF When it comes to the unbelievable number of unlimited options the FED has with the use of creat-at-will FIAT we may have a long wait. But in the meantime prepare for bigtime inflation because it has arrived. What will it do for the price of physical gold? Get real, we'll know when it happens! If you have physical you've done the right thing. There's the REAL STUFF and then there's the paper gold which I'm told burns. megatron (02/15/01; 20:05:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48338) old yeller/canuck Old Yeller; I can see the old Burrard plant from my place too! Are you in Burnaby?Canuck: If you follow the trend line and Fiabonacci numbers it looks like $242+/- is the next downside resistance of any consequence. If it breaks that we are looking at close to $200+/- Actually $260 was a very strong position but now it has broken to the downside so we are into new a psychology now, if your a trader(bad person!) like me. Canuck (02/15/01; 19:00:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 48337) Correction Oro #48309. Canuck (02/15/01; 18:58:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 48336) Witty remarks I may have posted prematurely.Gandalf, are we approaching backwardization?Oro's post re: the dimise of paper gold 48311 is an excellent post. Canuck (02/15/01; 18:43:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 48335) @ ausome @All Someone better say something really witty soon. There is alot of unsolicated bullsnot going on in the last couple days.If gold takes out the 21 year old low set last year, and we are only a couple bucks away, you are going to see sorry asses crying the blues.The miners, hedged or otherwise have been in free fall the last week, an indication support at about $252 will be breached. If 252 is broken, major shit will let loose; watch for it. What's the next support level?I hope you have staying power AUSOME, when is USD going to break? First and foremost, the run to the USD has to happen first; the USD will rise first as weaker currencies fail. When will USD relinquish(sp?) reserve status; 10-15 years is my guess.Thoughts?Canuck. Orville Goldenbacher (02/15/01; 18:39:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 48334) Mr. Gresham, PandaGold, Oro, All.... The Jewish Holocaust was a terrible act of human wickedness, I'm very sorry it happened and hope it is never repeated. The Truth is what I seek. I do not care about any "social" clubs, secret societies, what have you. If there are a few rich "spooks" who want to manipulate me and my life in a secretive fashion, for their own greedy purposes.....I will fight them tooth and nail, I will do my best to expose their plans to others.Your average citizen is caught up in his/her day to day world, trying to make ends meet, taking care of the kids, watching a few soap opera's on t.v., drinking a few beers at the tavern/pub, keeping up with the Jones's, charging their credit cards, working their dead end jobs.....Your average citizen has never heard of "Illuminati, Rothschilds, Committee of 300, Skull & Bones, Bilderburger's, Trilateral Commission, IMF, Rockefeller, BIS, (Greenspan), etc.", the list goes on and on....I smell a rat, it's a BIG FAT RAT at that. Denial is the rat's modus operandi and Gold is it's cheese! Pandagold (02/15/01; 18:36:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48333) Conspiracy - a world government - Impossible? It is a belief held by some that the European Union is doomed to failure because of language, cultural, and religious differences.Lets take just one of those countries - UK. The UK itself is now very much a multicultural society (all in the matter of a few years). In my local supermarket, when I hear two people speaking together in English, it causes me to look in surprise. Oh yes, most know enough English for them to get by, but use their native language for conversation between themselves.Every religion is well catered for, and history, taught in the schools, is continuallybeing adjusted so that no one is offended — except the original native population.While Britain is way ahead of the other European members, changes have been taking place in those countries also.The point being made here is that whatever cultural, language, or religious differences there might have been, have now either eroded or are existing, reasonably, side by side.Any problems that exist, and pop up from time to time, are understandable within a process of change. Some, are even created by factions to further their own interests, and some given overdue press coverage for the usual reasons that media love sensationalism.Whether all this 'coming together' and breaking down of national barriers and homogenous societies is a good or bad thing in the final analysis, is not a point of comment in this posting. All I know is that if the vast majority of the native electorate had been subjected to a referendum as to whether it was their wish for this to have happened, I am certain that the vote would have been overwhelmingly against.Yet, democratic governments are elected by the people, of the people, and for the people. So, how then, if there is no unseen hand behind government, like the hand that animates the puppet, unconcerned about electorate wishes, moving things according to a well orchestrated act (plan), how did it come about? It has been described as an 'experiment,' a concept, but for what?How can anyone see what has taken place — because now it is no longer a concept — it exists, and exists in a very strong, as in powerful, way, and yet not see that if this 'experiment' as they describe it can be accomplished among this large group of historically nationalistic enemy nations, it is a blue print for taking it another step further — and where then does it stop. And being successful, why should they stop?The puppeteers have got away with their sordid act so far, and will continue to do so because of one thing, and one thing only, they are able to dupe so many that conspiracy is a word used by cranks and nutheads. I have always said that the greatest conspiracy of all is the one to debunk conspiracies. The media, and Hollywood have been highly successful in their effect upon the gullible masses, in making them (the visionaries) a joke, and in alienating those that use their eyes and free mind.To show how cultural barriers are so easily broken down. The following is taken from an article in today's South China Morning Post:-Hotels relax rules for lovers AGENCIES-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- China's hotels are putting love ahead of regulations and allowing unmarried couples to book double rooms, something usually permitted only for partners with a marriage certificate, China Daily said. "No lies need to be told about being married when couples check in at the hotel tonight - Valentine's Day," a hotel employee said. Many couples had already reserved rooms at the price of 488 yuan (HK$458) per night for a double room, it said. That did not go down well with everyone in sexually conservative China. "Unmarried couples shouldn't do that kind of thing, it's not right," one 58-year-old woman said. "We cannot follow all foreign ways and customs. We are Chinese and Chinese people have their own traditions." But the China Daily said Chinese customs were changing. "It is undeniable that social norms in China are so quickly changing that more space is allowed to lovers," it said. On a lighter note: This couple really fell for each other on Valentines DayValentine's Day is a celebration of falling in love and one Taiwan couple yesterday did just that. While drinking and romping in celebration of Valentine's Day they tumbled from their seventh storey balcony. A man, 33, and his girlfriend, 31, survived the fall but suffered fractures to arms and legs after they landed on the roof of a neighbouring three-storey building, the United Evening News said. The woman grabbed an iron bar after she unexpectedly slipped on the balcony of their Kaohsiung apartment in southern Taiwan. Her boyfriend went to the rescue and grabbed her but was unable to hold on and the pair fell four floors to the roof below. CoBra(too) (02/15/01; 18:25:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 48332) ... While you Randy spell it out neatly - - I "safra" on the sidelines ... until it's spelled out completely ... cb2 Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 18:18:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 48331) Trail Guide, methinks we are singing from the same page Along the lines of your post to Mexpat regarding the euro reserve structure, here is yet another excerpt from that same post I cited earlier about the ECB's consolidated financial statement:----BEGIN---"While it is true that the ECB as a lone entity holds gold as 15 percent of its total reserve asset value (all received from subscription by the member national banks), by doing the math from the figures presented above regarding total Eurosystem reserve assets, we see that gold holds an even more lofty position among reserves... thirty-one percent. And with their quarterly mark-to-market regime, as the dollar eventually slips against the euro, the percentage of total reserve value represented by the gold will rise (and compensation will come from gold that will be seen rising against the euro even as it soars against the dollar).+The writing on the wall is clear for all willing to look at it. Banking systems are evolving to edify gold in the exalted position of Reserve Asset, to never again suffer the indignities that befall when used as inflatable currency (such as seen during gold's previous engagement in the role of "Dollar" ...Boy, THAT was sure a laugh!)"----END-----Upon reading that I'm sure some thought I was COMPLETELY off my rocker, but now perhaps they will see the angle I was driving at in light of your latest clear comments. Thank you! Specifically, you said:---"The one thing that was negotiated into the EMU was gold's place in the world. Indeed, this is where the ECB and BIS knew their oil neighbors well. By signaling gold to be an asset, not a currency, it could be promoted to rise outside it's commodity range without competing with the new currency. With the history of the dollar's use of gold, America's war on gold and it's locked in political stance on gold, Old World Europe played a Master Stroke. This could not help but solidify an evolution into Euro use by practically every country outside the dollar world."---OK, now my turn at the microphone is done, too. Off to help a friend celebrate another glorious year of life on this fine Earth.got reserve assets? Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 17:45:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48330) More supporting data for Trail Guide On the topic of Eurosystem reserves, you said "The ECB is now, outright, selling some of it's actual reserves. The game progresses."In my prior post, I mentioned the weekly posting of the ECBs consolidated financial statement. Here is a relevant excerpt on the decline in foreign exchange reserves experienced during the previous week...----------Randy (2/14/2001 usagold.com msg#: 48246)SUBJECT: Wow...this drop is much bigger than we've typically seenThe current consolidated financial statement of the Eurosystem reporting on last week's balance shows a 2.8 billion euro decrease in the net postion of foreign currency assets held by the national central banks -- resulting from customer and portfolio transactions by these CBs and a swap transaction by the ECB. Thus, the total foreign currency assets held in reserve by the monetary union has now fallen to 257.9 billion euros.+Somewhat surprising us here in The Tower, their gold assets were reported up one million euros to 118.112 billion euros on the balance sheet. We are inclined to think that gold interest revenue on outstanding gold lending operations has accummulated to the critical point where it appears as a significant figure (at least one million) to show up on the balance sheet.----END EXCERPT---- Pandagold (02/15/01; 17:43:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 48329) DENIAL Everything is denied - The Protocols, the French Dreyfus affair; The America's atomic secrets to Russia, and the conspiracy to control the world economically, which was set out in the Protocols; (now let's see who's hand controls the Federal Reserve today, and is steering the world economy — to where)? and the slow daily extermination of the Palestinians - all is denied.Denial - you all know what that is? Yes it's de ribber dat flows past de pyramidsThe last paragraph is a joke, the first one is not. Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 17:34:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 48328) Lending a hand to Trail Guide I'd offer water for your horse, too, but I see that you run so far so fast, a horse would only slow you down!Your comment: "Euroland is moving away from dollars. They started selling their interest received on US reserves a while back, and continue to do so. Randy has the actual date for this somewhere. The ECB is now, outright, selling some of it's actual reserves."Here again is the official word from the September 14, 2000 Press Release of the ECB that you refer to wherein they announce the new policy of sales of the foreign exchange interest income:------ from www.ecb.int ---- 14Sept2001 -----At the beginning of 1999 the ECB was provided with foreign reserve assets with a market value, at that time, of some EUR 39.5 billion, 15% of which was gold. These assets were transferred to the ECB by the national central banks of the Eurosystem in accordance with Article 30 of the Statute of the ESCB.The foreign currency component of the ECB's foreign reserve assets has been invested, and it earns foreign exchange revenue for the ECB. The ECB's holdings of foreign currencies have increased by an amount corresponding to over EUR 2.5 billion since the beginning of 1999, mainly on account of receipts of interest income, denominated primarily in US dollars but also in Japanese yen.The Governing Council of the ECB decided at its meeting on 31 August 2000 that inflows derived from the interest income of the foreign reserve assets would be sold against euro in order to maintain the structure and risk profile of the ECB's balance sheet as it was at the beginning of 1999.The sale of the interest income accrued so far will start today and will be spread over a number of days. After this initial sale, it is intended that future inflows will normally be sold on a regular basis. The amounts actually sold will be indicated in the ECB's commentary on the consolidated financial statement of the Eurosystem, published on a weekly basis.The Federal Reserve Bank of New York and the Bank of Japan have been informed of these planned foreign exchange operations.---------------------And on your other item, you said: "If I remember correctly, it does not include the entire amounts of bullion held within the full system of european central banks, just the ECB portion. Later it may score the entire amount, which is already some 30% at these prices! USAGOLD's site master, Randy, has been posting these quarterly reports for us."It has been my running perception that the full Eurosystem gold reserves are even now receiving this quarterly revaluation. The weekly consolidated financial statements of the Eurosystem that I have been in the habit of sharing here seem to bear this out. Maybe no?Thanks for all you do. Loved this morning's timely post on the paper/metal distinction regarding the oversupply and undersupply, respectively, of those markets. Indeed, we enter into equivalent free market transaction agreements seeking the advantage of the item we are trading for. But perhaps some people choose to seek only leveraged counterparty default risk with the dollars they spend??? Clearly, they are not trading cyberdollars for the advantage of tangible metal. . . ...thanks for reinforcing the message so well! CoBra(too) (02/15/01; 17:34:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48327) Smart? or what? ... and timely - is a prerogative to survive in this gold market! Jay Taylor of Placer Dome is a survivor. The CEO of PDG has smartly prolonged the WA induced rise of POG by stating that his co. will deliver every ounce produced into the hedge book - while doing just the opposite. ... Clearly an opportune move! - as it may stave off immediate collapse - it will only prolong the pain of going down the drain! ... and I may quote what someone of you considered as your due - PDG stock is as good as cash at CDN 35+ - I'd be with you ... to short my stash at the residue price I may hash. (instead of being unkind) - regards to you cb2 Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 17:04:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48326) Governments: Like them or not, there's a new sheriff in town http://www.newsalert.com/bin/story?StoryId=CoOTIub9DtJe1oda0nd&FQ=p%25rco%20and%20%28c%25%25fr%20c%25%25frx%29%20and%20not%20%28moneygraph%29 The G7 is set to meet in Palermo on Saturday, and new SecTreas Paul O'Neill is prepared to attend as a co-equal participant, not a policy dictator (as were his two predecessors, Mssrs. Rubin and Summers, who seldom missed an opportunity to list specific policy actions they'd prefer to see implemented by their counterparts.)Where Japan is concerned, the article says SecTreas O'Neill's approach would "consist of listening and asking questions, not prodding."The article continues:-------Japan, the world's second-largest economy, has struggled for a decade with anemic growth. O'Neill said that as it continues to "limp along," he will ask Finance Minister Kiichi Miyazawa what he thinks should be done. "My question really is not O'Neill's program for Japan, my question for Miyazawa-san and associates in Palermo is, how can we help you achieve the potential that it's obvious you would like to have for yourself?" O'Neill said. He added: "This is my notion of how to enter a conversation with some humility about how this can be done and without a notion that there is an easy prescription we can just say to them and they should go do it."----------This could tie in well with Japan's "sudden" "new" interest in a strong yen as mentioned in MK's market report today. Trail Guide (02/15/01; 17:02:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 48325) Reply Hello again,--------Mexpat (2/11/2001; 9:01:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 47986)FOA/Trail Guide - Background No. 2Hello all..Greetings from sunny southern Mexico.Usually, if I read the material carefully and ponder it a while the meaning becomes clear but one paragraph in FOA's recent posting went over my head, particularly the last sentence...this is the paragraph:FOA (02/09/01; 14:29:38MT - usagold.com msg#60)------- In addition, their marking gold to market is a prerequisite to following the Fed's new inflation stance by scoring the dollar against the Euro gold price once the paper gold markets fail.-----Perhaps FOA or another of the forum's knowledgable posters could break down that last sentence a little for me. ---------------========Hello MexPat and welcome Sir.The ECB has been marking their internal gold stores to the market for a while now. This was part of their charter. If I remember correctly, it does not include the entire amounts of bullion held within the full system of european central banks, just the ECB portion. Later it may score the entire amount, which is already some 30% at these prices! USAGOLD's site master, Randy, has been posting these quarterly reports for us. To date, the initial significance of this move by our Euro friends is cosmetic. Most of the financial world does not make much of it. What is threatening, to date, is the open conflict of money policy this points to. The US Treasury, IMF and Fed, as a group have been demoting gold as an asset backing against their internal currency, our dollar. I think their most aggressive stance goes back to the Jamaica Accords and or the SDR evolution. We, America, promote the value of our dollar in and of itself. Mostly pointing to our goods, services and assets that dollars can buy. Of course, if you have followed this for long, you know the dollar and near dollar supply has shot to the nearest star and will never actually convert into these products in total. At least not at current exchange rates or internal price levels in the US. So,,, we promote the dollar using a different format, by saying that foreigners can invest here, not buy, and find the best returns. This works as long as foreign CBs support our dollar as a reserve by saving it themselves. Making for a stable exchange rate and benign price inflation (in the US). Many thinkers have said, over the last 30 years, that those foreign CBs would never continue to do this. Well, confounding everyone, they did! Their real reasons have been our topic for years now.However, we are now at a point unique in our time. The advent of their Euro is fracturing the ECB reasoning for continued dollar reserve support. This all moved beyond the software stage and entered the hardware era a year or so ago. Now, as some reports are confirming "for all to see", Euroland is moving away from dollars. They started selling their interest received on US reserves a while back, and continue to do so. Randy has the actual date for this somewhere. The ECB is now, outright, selling some of it's actual reserves. The game progresses.So, what of their gold values? Eventually, as the dollar works it's way toward becoming just a regular money, it's exchange rate will tumble. Vastly aggravated by our world class trade deficit. A deficit, I might add, that has become structural to the function of our economy in a non price inflation manner. Further; the high energy prices we have recently seen did not just come out of nowhere. Our energy markets and / or their political plays have not changed for 20 years. What has changed is the producers advantage of having a choice of currency to settle oil in. The Euro or the Dollar! This process has also been a long-term topic of ours. Contrary to what everyone thinks, the US is at double the economic oil price risk as EuroLand. Even though, initially their price goes higher than ours, because of continued dollar settlement, their entire financial structure is far less leveraged. The producers can sit back and watch who functions best, over time. And time is already working it's will within the US. You have but to read the headlines of Black Blade to know that. Thank you Mr. Blade for an exceptionally fine job!The one thing that was negotiated into the EMU was gold's place in the world. Indeed, this is where the ECB and BIS knew their oil neighbors well. By signaling gold to be an asset, not a currency, it could be promoted to rise outside it's commodity range without competing with the new currency. With the history of the dollar's use of gold, America's war on gold and it's locked in political stance on gold, Old World Europe played a Master Stroke. This could not help but solidify an evolution into Euro use by practically every country outside the dollar world. South Africa plays large in this. One or two of their mines will also.Now,,,,,, as the dollar begins to weaken and price inflation starts to march, the demand for real gold will eventually spike physical premiums thousands past the paper dollar gold markets. In ANOTHER master stroke, the BIS knew that the entire bullion house structure was endorsed and supported politically, to frame gold in a dollar price band. Outside that band, up or down, these paper markets cannot function. Especially if the driving force becomes a physical demand that drains all settlement credibility from contract gold. There will be no squeeze in these markets now, as they will be allowed to kill themselves by trying to save themselves. Inflating the supply is that process. The loss of such credibility will eventually come as trading just stops, virtually closing the dollar contract markets as we know them. Opening the door to an ECB sponsored physical market.If I had to guess, we will see Shanghai, Johannesburg and Dubai all joining with major internal Euroland financial centers to form the EBES (Euro Bullion Exchange System). By this time, the ECB quarterly reports will be seen as a scorecard of Dollar vs Euro values. We shall see!I think you can take the microphone from here, sir. I've said enough on this. (smile))Thank youTrailGuide CoBra(too) (02/15/01; 16:55:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 48324) PH in LA - Please have mercy with some of us trying hard (er)- - to understand "plain" English, if it is, as it may sound (-and that may be the question?)- "obfuscication" of utterances by the Chairman of the FED. May it just be intentional 'obfuscation' of the stratagem to confuse the obvious? He's notorious? Na, Servus - cb2 PH in LA (02/15/01; 16:26:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48323) Clearing the air! Greetings PorterSweden,No, the quote is a complete fabrication! But not by me!If you reread all my messages from that evening, you will discover that I was merely calling attention to Greenspan's opaque prose by allowing a text generation program to print out parodies of his obfusticating utterances. The posts were intended to be pure fun. Sorry they misled you. But thanks anyway, for reading closely enough to catch the "lying about gold bit". If you do revisit that evening's posts and follow the link in the last one, you might be amazed how true the complaint generator seems to be. slingshot (02/15/01; 16:11:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48322) Small Time Investors I have a request to make to all STINS. If you have a precious metal dealer in your town, give him a call and ask him if he has any oz's. I should have thought of this sooner for mine are closed. Its as easy as the yellow pages. I'm hoping my post is not a fluke. To all those at this forum A hearty thank you for all your expertise. Since my resourses are small my only contribution is what I see. Its time for the STINS to give something back. Lets see if this is it. Post your findingsLet all those know lurkers know we can help too. And remember C.P.M. when you purchase.Slingshot ausome (02/15/01; 16:02:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 48321) Rejoice-the dollars end is closer. The sooner paper burns to the ground the better. We know that it must burn so start buying physical before it is too late. I was glad to take FOA's advice when (s)he said start buying in October 99 when it was $320. At $250 it is a steal. Watch real wealth get created when the dollar is displaced from its reserve currency status. We may see our paper assets dwindling but few see what looms in the future as trillions of dollars lose their value. SHIFTY (02/15/01; 15:50:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 48320) CNBC Lays Off 45 People ( See Ya ) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010215/aponline160624_000.htm CNBC Lays Off 45 People The Associated PressThursday, Feb. 15, 2001; 4:06 p.m. ESTNEW YORK –– CNBC is laying off 4 percent of its staff as part of a belt-tightening drive and an additional 26 jobs are being lost at CNBC.com as the financial news network combines the online unit with its television operations. The elimination of 19 jobs at CNBC disclosed Thursday were part of a company-wide cost-cutting effort implemented at NBC, a unit of General Electric Co., in response to a sharp slowdown in advertising sales. The cuts leave CNBC with a staff of 500. The company-wide plans, announced about a month ago by NBC chairman Robert Wright, call for cuts of between 5 percent and 10 percent in all divisions of NBC, which would result in a total of up to 600 jobs out of NBC's total work force of about 6,000. CNBC spokesman Paul Capelli said the cuts came in all divisions of CNBC and CNBC.com, which are being consolidated under a management reorganization plan announced last week. Capelli confirmed the cuts Thursday, which were reported in the online edition of The Wall Street Journal. As part of that plan, Pamela Thomas-Graham, who had been president of CNBC.com, will become president of CNBC. She replaces Bill Bolster, who is assuming the new title of chairman. Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 15:25:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 48319) What?? Not a CPM client or subscriber? http://www.usagold.com/newsviews.html Well, we won't twist your arm to help support these pages by choosing to do business with this finest of all gold brokerages, and we won't leave you completely out in the cold either. (Hopefully you will one day be so kind as to honor us with your business after all we've tried to do to enhance your comprehension of the wide world of gold, economics, and international monetary markets.)And so, it is with pleasure that I may announce that two more back issues (August and September) of the News & Views newsletter are now posted and freely available to all.... specifically, those of you who have joined us late and want to catch up, those who have been displaced from the trial subscription list, and those who are too shy to sign up. Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 15:11:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 48318) Attentention European clientele and all other international subscribers! http://member.usagold.com/commentaryreview.html Your February edition of News & Views is now available for downloading.Just click the link and enter your Username and Password as assigned to you via e-mail by Centennial Precious Metals HQ (generally, these are your last name and e-mail address, respectively).Hard copies should now be arriving by mail to our domestic clientele and subscribers, but you are also welcome to access the online file at your convenience. You will find the February download link at the end of MK's first-rate commentary. slingshot (02/15/01; 14:53:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 48317) THE HUNT FOR GOLD IS ON! WHO SAYS GOLD IS DEAD? If it is there are plenty of people buying it! I just came back from my dealer and the display case was just about empty. Had a few 1/10th eagles, a few Maples And TWO DOUBLE EAGLES. Thats it. Seven to ten days wait. Dealer said sold within one hour 10 Krugs, 12 eaglesin oz. As the 1oz's disappeared they started to work on the 1/2, 1/4, 1/10ths. I can feel the squeeze. Gold is at a fire sale price and at least for me its going to be Terrific. I love a good hunt. I am excited! Silver rounds were doing pretty good when the customer could not buy the gold. This is got to have an impact. Small time investors. Is ther a run where you are? Please post if it is getting harder to get physical gold.Has the Gold Dam broke? I'm on the edge of my seat. Slingshot Perplexed (02/15/01; 14:40:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 48316) Working Kirk TPTB Thanks for the critique. And the answer to your questions essentially asking just who are these powers that be is as follows. You are right, they are not a super collective of over bright beings, in fact, TPTB are indigenous to each situation. If you are dragged into a dark alley by three men whom you have absolutely no doubt can and will beat you to a bloody pulp unless you "voluntarily" relinquish your gold, you have just encountered TPTB.If however, along with gold, you pull a 357 magnum from under your shirt, in all liklihood the definition has just shifted in your favor.A general definition then would be: anyone with the power, ability, or in control of enough power to dictate the outcome of a given situation, at a given time, could be considered TPTB.Thus, if a politician delivers the ultimatum to either surrender your gold or go to jail, regardless of the fact that you have a paper declaring your ownership, and another on government stationary declaring your right to keep it, if his title commands enough respect by enough people, including those with badges and guns, again meet TPTB.Around 1795 a man by the name of Mayer Rothchield reputedly made the statement that "I care not who writes the laws of the nation so long as I control its currency."This was not a profound statement, it was merely a verbilization of the principle by which "civilization" had been controlled from day one.Mayer and his four sons established banking empires in five European nations including England, France and Germany, and thus became TPTB in Europe.This same banking family was very instrumental in the establishment of the Federal Reserve in this nation in 1913.How is it possible to believe that this family is not to be considered major PTB in the world today? PERPLEXED Mr Gresham (02/15/01; 14:39:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 48315) "Commoditization" http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m3MKT/113_108/62794390/p1/article.jhtml?term=gold Here's the negative argument (from last summer) on gold's future as money.I would summarize gold vs. fiat with two statements.People decide what they want to use as money, and most people of the world value gold. They just do not have much cash available now to put toward it, pauperized as they've been by economic trends vis-a-vis the Western paper world. Reverse those trends and gold will be bought.And (2), fiat is only valid as a substitute for hard money if it is strictly limited in quantity. That trust has been violated for decades, and is being abrogated at an accelerating pace of late. A big "Duh" on that one, paper-fans.My only question is to wonder where you'll run when you flee paper? Stocks must pass THROUGH paper (not to mention banks) to convert to solid value for you, and real estate is currently being held up by paper-backed leverage. All that occurs to me in the moment is a lifetime supply of toilet paper and your favorite soaps (only I understand the mice like to nest in your TP). Gandalf the White (02/15/01; 14:26:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 48314) The start of monitoring the END of THE TRAIL ! http://www.futuresource.com/cgi-bin/quickquote?+=gc%2C2 Cont./Date../Open/HighAsk/LowBid/Last/Settle/Chg/Vol/OI/DTE GCG01Feb'01/02/15--259.5--259.5--255.1--255.1s/-4.3/8/39/11 GCH01Mar'01/02/15-----------------------255.8s/-4.3/0/57/41 GCJ01Apr'01/02/15--261.7--261.8--256.3--256.9s/-4.3/11161/98585/70 GCM01Jun'01/02/15--261.8--262.1--258.4--259.0s/-4.3/411/17504/132 GCQ01Aug'01/02/15--263.6--263.6--260.7--260.9s/-4.2/16/4023/195 GCV01Oct'01/02/15--265.5--265.5--262.0--262.7s/-4.1/0/1300/256 GCZ01Dec'01/02/15--267.5--267.7--264.1--264.4s/-4.1/32/6859/315 *****WE shall watch this PAPER Gold burn TOGETHER -- YES ?<;-) Mr Gresham (02/15/01; 14:22:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 48313) Barnacle Bill http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/meastwat.htm My activist days have turned into a realization (resignation?) that I live in the midst of a "Roman" Empire that may fall in centuries, decades, or a few years. The roads of Rome's vassal states were lined with crosses, not only the one in Jerusalem.Trying to be a voice of conscience in a Rome of bread and bloody circuses (I've just seen "Gladiator" a second time) is difficult, so I thank you for your voice, Bill.The key to what you speak of is to recognize bullying (one of our Forum's important themes) in any of its forms, to prevent it if you can, speak out against it if you can (safely or otherwise), and at the least to withhold your support of it. (Henry Thoreau on the Mexican War, in "Civil Disobedience".)How you live out your remaining years within that Empire, blessed by being born a Roman and not a slave, is a matter for your conscience and means. I have always been inspired by Jesus' remark: "To whom much is given, of them much is expected." And "Whosoever harms one of these little ones..."I would say that also correlates with a Law of Karma, which we may find out someday is operating in a larger "mechanism" we cannot now see. To my view, it's at least worth a Pascal's wager, as most of our ethical commitments are.Thank you, Oro. Gandalf the White (02/15/01; 14:03:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 48312) WOWERS -- someone DUMPED a lot of paper in Comex today ! Note that it was shortly after HIGH NOON, when the NY houses had full control !! -- Things MUST be very bad at someones Hedge HOUSE. Time to mortgage the FARM again --- RIGHT FOA ? This can not be true -- XMAS in February ? Let us use the mantra of the dipsters -- ALL chant together ---BUY Au, BUY Au, BUY Au !!! -- Gold-fly, Can you get out a song quickly ? <;-) ORO (02/15/01; 13:51:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 48311) Orville Goldenbacher - Protocols The origin of the protocols traces back to a late 19th century French Satire writer, who was not writing this about Jews but about his own countrymen. The French elite of the time was very much discussing exactly the ideas presented in so draconical a fashion in the protocols, and was set on pursuing just such a plan. Which, of course, lay the path for the satirist to write this. The Russian propaganda machine was quickly taken by the satire's sharpness and by changing a few of the oblique references to the French elitist organizations into Jews, they had in hand an excellent piece to use in setting off a new series of pogroms. These served well to divert the poor Russian derelicts from the oppression by the Tzar's bureaucracy and saved the Tzar from falling for another 20 years.Call the protocols by their actual reference as a satire of a discussion of French elitists, much in fashion around Paris of the restoration and the n+1 republic. barnacle bill (02/15/01; 13:49:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48310) Survivors of the Shoah Msg.#48306 Right now they are coming for the Palestinians and no one is saying anything. "What are you going to do about it?" How long do you think it will be until Israel comes up with a 'Final Solution'? ORO (02/15/01; 13:38:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48309) Dollar Bill - questions from a few days back Dollar Bill, to answer your question of some time ago regarding the desirability of early resolution of the pressures of the gold-dollar nexus, I'll start by going back before the gold standard.Contrary to popular opinion, the gold and silver bi-metallic system prior to the gold standard was far more stable than the paper dollar or the gold standard itself. The way gold standards formed in transition from bimetallism is a result from the governments around the world setting fixed gold-silver ratios. Those that set gold as too expensive relative to silver found silver disappear. Those that set silver as too expensive had silver dumped in their laps. The problem was not the particular levels set for the silver-gold ratios but that such a figure was set at all. No matter what the figure was, at some point the market would change and the figure, even if perfectly set at the "correct" point some months back, would become incorrect later. The attempt by governments to make accounting standardized was at the bottom of fixing the gold-silver exchange rates. That was a desired outcome by banks, who wanted a fixed accounting for silver relative to gold, which they thought would ease their risk. But it did not. Though the slight short term risks resulting from the fluctuations of silver relative to gold were dampened at first, the end result was a wildly dangerous difference in market rates vs. official rates, that would break down in step wise fashion. The gold standard of the Latin monetary union displaced silver from Europe to the US and other countries. The fixed silver-gold ratio set gold as too expensive in Europe and caused gold to flow into Europe – and silver out. Since accounting was set in gold, the European prices in gold went up, while silver disappeared from the markets. Where no silver gold ratio was set, silver flows from Europe increased prices quoted in silver and decreased prices specified in gold. The effect was deflationary since most contracts in trade and debt were in gold, creating credit crises as industry and agriculture suffered a drop in gold cash flow. Since gold was the preferred settlement money for international and large scale trade, and silver was preferred for local trade and small transactions, this had the effect of moving product into Europe and international trade and away from local trade, thus hitting European trade balance as the initial gold move into Europe caused a reaction some time later, which drew gold out, but without injecting silver back in. The result was inflation followed by trade pressures. Europe then started to restrict trade by laying tariffs in order to protect local producers that had taken on debt during the gold inflation and invested in new production. This was among the drivers for German unification by Bismarck, the need to react to the Latin Union's trade restrictions. German unification increased local trade and allowed the labor movement expansion across the whole of Germany, labor was a very German movement started by Hegel (Marx’ – and Nietzsche's - philosophical father, and Kant's follower). The trade restrictions escalated till the German and Latin (French) trade came to a near halt and brought on the bankruptcy of most European governments and the arms buildup that later led to WWI. The gold followed the silver exodus of some decades out of Europe. As this "Connections" like progression shows, there is much to consider by the policy maker, and the results are often unexpected. The rule, however, is that any government decision that replaces a market choice with an imposed decision, even if it has the support of all participants, will inevitably lead to damage. The markets led the European governments to think that the decision was correct as the economy grew quickly and investment was all around. The ultimate results were unimaginable during the boom period.In the decade to 1929, the US had enjoyed a great credit expansion that had at its core the acceptance at par of bank balances relative to gold, at the fixed exchange rate of $20 odd dollars per ounce. The reserves behind this expanding credit fell to 3.5% or so by the end of the period, despite good trade balances with Europe providing a net surplus and gold reserves growing. Only the break in confidence generated by the Fed's absurd actions brought people to doubt the bank balances and to prefer holding gold in hand.Today, the expansion in gold paper over the past 20 years has been similar and has left the banking system leveraged with bank reserves falling. As lenders of last resort, the CBs are drawn upon last for gold liquidity. First goes the easy gold deposit from the weak hand. Then comes pressure on the mines to support banker's paper gold, then minor adds of liquidity by the CBs turn into substantial supply. Now, the gold banking system has what seems to be 5-9% reserves, depending on which of the CB reserves are in play. The dollar leverage stands in relation to this already leveraged paper gold. In a pure credit money system such as we have now, there is no real cash. All moneys are generated by borrowing – the issue of debt. The debt receipts, which are the bank balances, are required for settlement of existing debts. Since interest raises the amount of debt above the initial amount of credit money created, the requirement of returning the funds and paying interest can only be filled by money created by fresh borrowing or money injections from the Fed. The Fed, our "monetary authority", is capable of purchasing market debt (treasuries, and now also RPs and securitized mortgages) and thus setting particular interest rates. The buying of paper by the Fed creates fresh money despite there being no fresh borrowing. The borrowing, though unlimited in theory, requires particular interest rates for any given level of expected price inflation and of expected future income (cash flow) of the borrower (the default risk premium as expressed in interest rates). Thus, while price fears are absent and people/business have high expectations for future income, borrowing accelerates. The only check on expansion of debt is the interest rate that the Fed decides, which is often raised (and thus limits fresh borrowing) when credit expansion is threatening an extraordinary rise in prices. The Fed lowers interest rates when liquidity is strained – that is when the bank balances are insufficient for the normal function of trade and settlement of debts, which most often is caused by a large scale bankruptcy or a lack of funds to execute trades. This shows up most often in financial markets as trade volumes fall, particularly in the bond market. Here, we should look at the meaning of the lack of automatic constraints on borrowing. In the full swing of a boom, individuals and business expand their obligations as their estimates for future income rise. This causes individuals to over-leverage, and businesses to over-invest. But since cash flows follow investment, and the borrowing that makes it possible, can't show up till some time in the future, the expectations are unchecked by feedback from reality because liquidity is not constrained by a relatively fixed amount of money (as it would be on a gold standard). The feedback – showing that real resources are strained by all the new borrowing competing for these resources - comes only when prices of these resources start rising, or business can't make payments on its debt because inputs have risen in price while output, or product, has dropped in price relative to inputs. Because of the delay in feedback, the markets are not limited in their taking on and accepting of new obligations till some borrowers become distressed, or prices had risen noticeably and the Fed raises rates. Thus the investment fashion of the day dictates where investments go in pursuit of still imaginary future incomes. More steady and less fashionable industries find themselves in competition with other business for their inputs, and find less willingness to lend or invest on the part of the markets, since the steady and unexciting business enjoys an image of somewhat low, but certain returns backed by decades of prior investment cycles reducing perceived risks considerably. The unfashionable business can't pay the interest rates that the fashionable business thinks it can, because the fashionable business has very high prospects, though imaginary and unproven, and will outbid the old fangled one, that has a rather fixed expectation. It is only when a large portion of the new industry comes online that it creates the full draw on available resources, and bids up the prices for the resources produced by the businesses that could not obtain financing at reasonable cost while the fashionable industries were funded. With high costs and low revenue, the formerly fashionable industries find cash flows too weak to cover fully their interest and principal payments. This is the story of high tech and of energy. It is also the cause for the Fed to reflate by printing up some of the money that the debtors are not expected to pay back. To repeat, the money would be brought to market on the bond holder's side by the Fed undercutting the market interest rate, or in other words paying above market prices for the bonds – setting a floor to debt securities value and a cap on interest rates. The former asset holders now have funds in hand which are put on deposit at a bank or money market fund, which is now finding a higher bid (lower interest rate) on existing debt. The hope is that at some point borrowers would be found to borrow at the new, lower rates. However, if the new borrowing is used in such a way as to further strain the current supply and demand balance on the underinvested industries, then the higher prices this would cause for the overtaxed resources would send into receivership other businesses, that had been just barely able to cover debts before. The main reason for this is that a higher demand over a steady or declining supply causes a disproportionately higher price – higher by a large margin. A 2% increase in demand would cause anywhere from a 2.2% rise in price (supply being roughly constant) to 3% or 4%, or even more. In oil, the 8% upswing in demand, 12% relative to supply (the deficit made up with oil sales from inventories) caused a triple in price. Oil users that can't pass on the added cost to buyers (because buyers reduce purchases at a greater rate than prices rise – that because the product has a lower standing in their priority list) simply close up shop or go bankrupt, till supply is limited to the level at which costs are covered by price.To resume the discussion of the economic damage, there are few ways to deal with the overinvestment in some sectors being matched by underinvestment in others. We see that lowering rates till borrowing resumes, probably weighted towards investment in sectors that were underinvested in the past, would not change the problem of the debt default in the overinvested sectors. Furthermore, since the new investment would raise demand for the same resources for which the overinvested industries are already bidding, the new borrowing may simply cause further defaults in the overinvested sectors and spread the problem into other weak sectors some time down the road. Thus net borrowing, though it increases, will not have the same perceived expansionary effect on the economy as happened during the boom, when new capacity was being built but had not yet reached the supply limits of the economy in the underinvested sectors. We have partially solved the liquidity problem and saved the trading system, i.e. the banks, but have created a Thus we have a continued drop in creditworthiness standings – weaker existing borrowers – but also a supply of new money from Fed printing, mortgage refinance, and borrowing by some stronger businesses. The economy still needs to undergo its adjustment on the real plane of plant and service capacity – to close unneeded capacity and build capacity that is lacking. That is better done quickly rather than slowly, as it allows labor and other resources to move to the expanding industries now rather having them produce losses at the floundering operation. But by injecting the liquidity and saving the banks, and therefore their depositors, we have created "moral hazard" and avoided punishment for bad bankers, and investment managers, as well as having avoided punishing the depositors and investors who chose to entrust their money to these less competent hands. In this way, we keep the "weak hands" in the cockpit after they had just grazed the tree tops (again) and lost number 2 engine. The backup pilot is still waiting for his opportunity to pilot, and we are ready for the current pilot to perform another graze, say of a mountain top, and the loss of engine 4. Eventually, the plane will have an emergency landing (or crash). But rather than land the plane when the pilot first proved his incapacity, we have let him continue in the hope that he would get us to our destination more quickly than if the plane landed and a new air crew were found.Coming to the point of where gold stands in this, we can see that the maintenance of liquidity by printing money and new borrowing under this condition retains, and often worsens the ultimate rate of default, while allowing some existing borrowers to roll over debt at artificially low interest rates, and keeping the loss making businesses open. This moves weakness further through the economy as the demand for resources by the overinvested industries is retained, and their high prices are retained, keeping the resources away from underinvested industries, and pricing out of the market other existing industries that had not over-expanded, but can not pass on higher costs induced by those businesses that had over-expanded.The process continues with further departure of interest rates from market preferences as more and more businesses are weakened and their debt must be replaced with newly printed or borrowed moneys. Finally, the weak businesses and the banks (investors and depositors too) that invested in them will go to pot, but not before taking along another chunk of the economy into the tank, a portion that would not have suffered so had the overinvested industries been allowed a quick death. Since the debt structure undergoes continuing weakening and requires progressively larger monetary injections to "save the system". As these ever larger injections of funds proceed, and capacity closures cause supply shortages, prices jump in sudden dislocations along with a smooth but accelerating rise of overall prices. The underinvested industries are not allowed the same access to resources as they would have had if liquidity problems had destroyed the overinvested sectors. Eventually, as prices rise, there would be a race of funds away from financial assets (or just no further net inflows) and into anything likely to retain value better than currency (remember that interest rates are kept artificially low in order to inject funds into the credit market, and therefore do not allow the desired return by investors, who would simply avoid the market under these circumstances). In time, demand for physical gold would increase and would break the liquidity of the gold banking system once the tolerance of CBs for putting their gold at risk is reached, and selling of reserves can no longer meet the physical demand. Gold would then break-out, and accelerate the loss of value of the currency as what was perceived early by some becomes common knowledge. The banks, not having further gold on hand, would perforce have to stop delivery, and would be wrangled in courts around the world as paper gold holders attempt to either get the gold they thought the banks had, or to get the banks to pay for their purchases of physical to substitute for the paper. Purchasing power once held in financial assets, will move back to its historical repository, physical gold (and silver). Once this has occurred, there would be a sufficient cash purchasing power component in the financial economy to resume growth. Hopefully, investment in the underinvested industries would have been completed by that time, and the dollar could be hooked back to gold. The whole of this problem could be solved by allowing gold legal tender status at a market price, which would quickly find an equilibrium price that introduces exactly enough cash into the economy to solve the liquidity problems at hand, but without destroying the whole production chain. Unfortunately, the banks that have over-leveraged gold would have to be scrapped (re-capitalized and sold) and their gold obligations settled at about 20c on the dollar (if that). Furthermore, after a short reprieve, the overinvested industries would keel over, ownership would move to strong hands, and the sectors needing investment would start getting access to the full measure of resources freed from the weaker industries. The adjustment would be sharp, and rather quick once the courts are done with bankruptcy proceedings, and the fallen banks are reorganized. The alternative is an inflationary version of the Japanese disaster. Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 13:25:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 48308) Swiss Gold Confederatios ... at their best price yet for on-line ordering http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html Or call our good friends at the castle (yes, that would be Centennial Precious Metals -- 800-869-5115) and ask for their best prices on anything they have access to."Fresh horses and fistfulls of GOLD for ALL my men!" R Powell (02/15/01; 13:16:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48307) Wrong city New York! I knew we should have moved the COMEX to Albany. Something is afoot, methinks Rich Mr Gresham (02/15/01; 12:59:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48306) Orville: Survivors of the Shoah http://www.vhf.org/ Well, Orville, you know by now that, like you, I'm not one of those people to say nothing. ("First they came for the Jews, and I said nothing.... Finally, they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out.)So, I'll agree with keeping an open mind, and I love to do research, too. (I check out the links like yours a couple times a year, usually late at night. I go through the conspiracy and JFK sites. I say "hmmmm" a lot.)The question you come down to eventually is, What are you going to do about it?The link above is a reminder of some people that had their minds made up about this "problem", and tried to "do something" about it. Maybe they're the reason I never wanted to get into that Boy Scout uniform.If I thought I was going to have to bump into many of them on this forum, I'd be outa here in a flash. PorterSweden (02/15/01; 12:42:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48305) Skilled to lie about Gold? PH in LA! Chairman Alan Greenspan has been quoted by you as saying: "The most valuable skill one can have is to be able to lie convincingly". [2/13/2001 usagold.com msg#: 48211)]Is that quote correct? When did he say that and is it to be taken seriously? Old Yeller (02/15/01; 12:34:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 48304) I've been dazed and confused for so long,it's not true Wow,what a crazy day out there in Alan's world.Gold down,yen up,euro down,treasury yields up,gold stocks flat to up slightly,oil down.How about California,are they really going to keep the lights on? Sometimes it seems the more you learn,the less you know.Okay, some personal observations here.Where I sit,I can look out my front window and see a huge vapour plume constantly spewing out of the Burrard thermal generating plant.This puppy is going day and night now,it's only supposed to be used for peak periods and emergencies.This is our gas and our air quality,we are turning around and sending these badly needed resources to a customer in dire straights,who may at sometime pay us back in cyber dollars run off at the local mainframe.How about 15 cents on the dollar,they say to us,we'll get you the rest real soon.No,how about 350 million in real money,heck,we'll settle for one million ounces,but no more paper and no more empty unrealistic promises.Now back to reality;let the sit-com continue,I can hardly wait for that zany Greenspan's next big adventure. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (02/15/01; 12:28:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 48303) yes!!! POG $254!!! You may remove your seat belts now. We have left New York. This leg of your flight will be slower but uphill. Yet since the earth is round, don't get used to it! Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (02/15/01; 12:16:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 48302) Kitco Chart stuck at 1:45 pm ET at $255.40. How do you oil a chart? Orville Goldenbacher (02/15/01; 12:11:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 48301) THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION http://front14.org/Landulph/zion.htm#protocol_22 Quote from the controversial booklet: THE PROTOCOLS OF THE LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION-" YOU ARE AWARE THAT THE GOLD STANDARD HAS BEEN THE RUIN OF THE STATES WHICH ADOPTED IT, FOR IT HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO SATISFY THE DEMANDS FOR MONEY, THE MORE SO THAT WE HAVE REMOVED GOLD FROM CIRCULATION AS FAR AS POSSIBLE."That quote really caught my eye. First published in 1905, Henry Ford said of the writing..."The only statement I care to make about the PROTOCOLS is that they fit in with what is going on. They are sixteen years old, and they have fitted the world situation up to this time. THEY FIT IT NOW."The Anti-Defamation League, says: " The booklet's twenty-four sections spell out the alleged secret plans of Jewish leaders seeking to attain world domination. They represent the most notorious political forgery of modern times. Although thoroughly discredited, the document is still being used to stir up anti-Semitic hatred."So where does the TRUTH lie? We must all decide for ourselves. I just try to keep an open mind, sometimes you have to dig for real gold, the same can be said of truth. Is this writing a "forgery", like the ADL says? Or, does it "fit in with what is going on", like Henry Ford said??? Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (02/15/01; 12:08:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 48300) No need to worry They will have to repave that yellow brick road sometime! SHIFTY (02/15/01; 12:05:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48299) Trail Guide Trail Guide : you said " I expect my gold mines to match the paper price right to the end. But then, because they are a small portion of my bullion budget, the mine owners love me as I will keep them far longer than anyone else will. Perhaps across the valley and into the profit range we will all see the reasoning for this? You wont be alone my friend. I am looking across the valley and it looks like a long hike. I got my boots on and a good supply of bullion soup. Big SmileAll this going on and I have to go do chores. Looks like there will be lots to read when I get back. $hifty Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (02/15/01; 12:04:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 48298) Mr Gresham Great advice, but I don't know where she is! Maybe its time to pull that paper off the hook and use that physical bait. It sure is cheap and looks good too! Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (02/15/01; 11:57:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 48297) Did you bat an eyelash? No, not yet? Rookie bidders! Well do I have $253, $253, $253......who is gonna take that step for their CB? Do I hear $253?, $253....only 70 minutes left before this auction jumps a continent! $253, $253.....no sobbing or sniffling, er... was that $253? CoBra(too) (02/15/01; 11:56:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48296) @ Journeyman - Desperation? .... Desperation of the shorts - it's smelling of a last desperate stand to cover the un(re-)coverable bullion, sold down for the carry trade - ... from here on it may be the wake-up call to all, missing some reality in their balances! ... and you won't be able to cover at zero - or, is that so? Best cb2 Mr Gresham (02/15/01; 11:48:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 48295) Do Ah Smell a Little Capitulatin' Goin' On? Is this physical or paper? (Any coin dealers reporting tight supply?)And what are those funny checks I've been getting in the mail lately? "Buy anything you've ever wanted!" "You deserve it!" "If you don't, someone else will!" Journeyman (02/15/01; 11:47:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 48294) You can't do that - - - not for long P.S.! @ALL P.S. You simply CAN'T sell a physical product like gold at below production costs, especially when in the rest of the world, there's an excess of demand over supply. Of course, if not all that virtually glittery stuff you're selling is really gold (only about 2% IS gold according to Eeden) - - - Regards,Journeyman Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (02/15/01; 11:46:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 48293) POG $255!! Cascading towards $254 land. Still well within the hundred acre wood! Pooh bear happy, very happy! Thank you New York! Klondike Kate (02/15/01; 11:44:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 48292) Gold Things are transpiring as expected. Not too much longer until the gold rush begins! Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 11:37:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 48291) Propping bonds, or an act of monetary policy operations? http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010215/nat017565.html Curious. While yesterday we saw the Fed conduct a one day reserve draining operation of $4.755 billion in bank reserves via overnight matched sales (effectively the reverse of a repo operation), today we see the other far end of the operational spectrum.With that matched sale in the near background and with the federal funds market trading 1/8th higher than the target, the Fed said today it would be an outright buyer of U.S. Treasury coupons, thus adding $917 million in permanent reserves to the banking system.In a topsy-turvy financial world, gold is your monetary bedrock. Only in America can it be bought so cheaply with easily obtainable national currency. Take advantage, folks! Journeyman (02/15/01; 11:35:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 48290) You can't do that - - - not for long! @ALL Look folks, you simply CAN'T sell a physical product like gold at below production costs, especially when in the rest of the world, there's an excess of demand over supply. Espceially since in that "rest of the world" a lower price will create even MORE demand.At least you can't do that unless, as Black Blade suggests, something strange is going on.And at any rate, you can't do it for very long - - - unless the CB's which WGC claims are, on net only decreasing their holdings slightly, decide to dis-hoard (which is in their worst interests).Regards,Journeyman Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 11:25:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 48289) Can you imagine this ever happening to the U.S.? http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010215/n15344279.html HEADLINE: Goldman Sachs withdraws from Canada bond sectorTORONTO, Feb 15 (Reuters) - Goldman Sachs said on Thursday it was immediately withdrawing from the Canadian bond market."A transition team is in place to close out positions with as little disruption a possible," the company said in a statement.According to this Reuters article, companies do not see government bond markets as offering returns as they did "in the past in the era of government surpluses."In a world where paper is only a promise, you must find safety in tangible wealth. Gold is your liquid asset for pure savings....and at a great exchange rate these days for as long as the paper gold illusion maintains credibility. Get you some. Randy (@ The Tower) (02/15/01; 11:18:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 48288) Looking at that from which spot prices are derived....the paper trade http://www.kitco.com/image/gold.gif Boy, they are liquidating positions of paper (contract) gold today as though it were junk status. Oh yeah....it is.If you haven't got metal, you haven't got a clue. Black Blade (02/15/01; 10:55:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48287) Gold at $256.00! Gold is down -$3.40 and still headed down. Hmmm... Something strange going on here. Trail Guide (02/15/01; 10:47:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 48286) Comment I was just out talking with a fella that helps me with my garden crops. Held one of those Oregon Sugar Snap snow peas up to the sun,,,, could see all the little peas in row,,,, in the pod. Tasted it. You know,,,, some of the good things that grow from god's fertile earth are worth much more to a person than gold ever has or ever will. (smile)Speaking of gold: (some of you may want to skip this one)raspberry (2/13/2001; 13:56:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 48174)Exhausted ------ After several years of analyzing, buying, holding, hoping, and reading this forum, I am cutting back on precious metal positions. ------- cash has not been trash, even when it comes to PM stocks. ---------You are not kidding, "rasp",,,,, everyone is learning the difference between trading a "precious metal position" and owning real gold for it's "advantage" over currency! Cash and real gold are not trash in today's world and never have been. It's just that over the last few decades "physical gold advocates" got morphed into the same basket "gold bugs" were in. The media projected that being a gold bug meant trading gold stock options, gold options, gold stocks, gold futures, gold options on futures, unallocated gold certificates at banks and even delving into leveraged gold contracts at some back coast gold dealers acting like coin shops! Did I leave anything out, there must be others? Just as soon as all this garbage sank faster than the real thing, the media jumped in and said owning gold is a real bummer. They say this after decades of telling us that a "gold position" and "physical gold ownership" were one in the same. Is it no wonder the public talks about it all in the same context. You have to ask yourself: ----"The Western View, were you born with it or did you have to learn it?"------I know where Gata is going with their line of attack and I support them for it. There are some bad guys out there that are going to be eaten alive when the GATA pressure is high enough. But, I think we have to allow that a little part of my conclusions are what Chris was pointing to when he said; that people got sold a position in racket. Even if my purpose is outside their thrust, my logic can mean everything in building a new gold advocate's understanding. (Hello Sir Chris, thanks for thr reply. I'll be talking with you in a bit.) . From his post of: Chris Powell (2/13/2001; 21:20:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48208)-------------"We may agree that real metal is better than paper. (I hope we agree that the generous proprietor of this forum is an excellent source of the former.) We may even deride those who have found themselves on the wrong end of speculation in gold paper. Certainly GATA has done as much as anyone to expose and explain the gold derivatives racket.But then what of people who invested honestly both in gold paper and in mining companies under the misapprehension that the ordinary rules would be followed and that there was a free market in gold, the free market that their governments told them there was?"Note: please real all of his post.------------Well people, all the "gold positions" I mentioned above are, indeed included in those very same derivatives he speaks of! Sure, "Gold Bugs" speculate on them, make and lose big money. But, most conservative "Gold Advocates" never consider them as the place where one buys gold? When someone invests honestly in gold paper, in Chris's context, they have to follow all the rules as they stand. This includes accepting that our physical laws are part of and form our very trading assumptions. Not thinking, investors apply half the logic, trading just the price of something, expecting our real physical laws to apply anyway. They won't, on their own, unless you make them apply to your position, by taking delivery. Trading the price alone from the long side can work, but getting away with it only happens when we are in a certain "historic price band". That past price precedent has made us think we were following the rules and succeeding. This classic, mental omission has been the source of untold loses, brought upon ourselves as we try to play half the game,,,, all the time. Today, as we leave the comfort of those "safe price ranges", the dynamics and the nature of all this is exposed as two separate markets. Basic investing rules include selling out any long position if supply is created faster than demand. The paper half of this gold market is in such a situation. Unless you plan on bridging the two markets by taking delivery, you are buying the wrong side of the gold dynamic. Whether we like it or not, even though real gold supply is in deficit to it's demand, paper supply is way more than it's demand. When the price ranges left their "commodities range" it created this new divergence. Almost like saying "it's a new gold market, yes"?Again, this is a real world we live in and real world physical laws are what makes the trading rules work. In that real world, if someone is "honestly" long to get gold in the paper market, then stepping up to the bar and taking delivery would be the "honest move"? If not, I say again, he is playing the wrong market, and paying for it. Because the paper supply / demand dynamic is against him. The officials didn't change the rules on this portion, we brought it on our selves. Exercising one's contract position for real goods, even if if the price drops, changes the dynamics of supply and demand for the actual metal. And does so in line with whatever the paper supply is. If the demand for paper is made to be equal to demand for real metal, then noone could sell more fake paper than the gold that exists! It's that simple of a physical law. In this state, there could have been no "dishonest markets" as our perception proclaims. We would have owned it all! You guys are with me on this, right? Let's face it, Western Gold Bugs played a part in this political game because their investing habits led them there. International currency trading do include gold values, no matter what London says and it truly is His Majesty's "lion's den". Had we all stayed conservative, and physical, the government forces would have been forced into another form of a 1971 gold window closing long before now! Paper Gold Bugs take on a gold position and "play like" they (and everyone else also) will demand delivery if it drops. This is the source of the silly notion people get when they watch OI. They stick their chest out and say; "boy, us and them are going to squeeze this market with delivery demands if the price keeps falling"!--- "Looking around the room for others to agree with them as they talk"!--- then the price just keeps falling.Yea right, they can just afford the margin and are scared stiff that they may have to post more,,,, And they are going to go 100% AND PAY UP?? ,,,,, yea right! You say Gold Bugs and Gold Advocates are one in the same? No, there is a big difference, my friend. Cunning Gold Advocates take the Gold Bug's margin money then turns around and buys physical gold with it. Awful bunch of people. Nice, GA's are safer and never get involved in the whole process. They just buy gold for it's advantage and wait out the serious wealth that's coming. So, when the price drops, paper Gold Position players run away and say it was just a game of hid and seek, after all. "But, we'll be back!", is their yell,,,,, looking over their shoulder at a full gallop. Ha! Ha! They were just trend followers, after all. I have to return to using my earlier reference to Park's post and then say,,,,," the children just want to play a game",,,, and cry when they lose. You want to hear how the big boys think? Close your ears, because it ain't nice.---The governments are all going to let this thing die just like the 71 dollar with it's gold backing. They are not going to kill it by declaring worldwide position limits or 100% margin. They would look too dirty if they did. So, when guys like us (gold advocates) see the action, we take a bite. We buy all the physical the market will offer us at ever lower prices and sell the hell out of "gold positions". It's happening the world over! Knowing full well that the boys ("Gold Bugs") will run from delivery. Hey, why not? At least half the equation is politically correct for today's era. The trading era, that is! Besides, people go to Vegas, dumping more money than the paper gold crowd, ever will. All the while knowing full well that there is no payoff. Atlantic City is just as full of gamblers and they are not asset players either,,,, just want to spin the wheel for fun, like these paper Bugs". Hey, we are the good guys in all this,,,, at least we are buying the mine's product,,, gold. We aren't killing anyone's job,,,, the paper bugs are by supporting the system with their buys and never taking any product!!!! ------- Ouch, that hurt! The truth has a mild sting sometimes. OK, once again, the market place will follow this trend of inflating world "gold positions" because people keep buying those paper positions. How does it go?? A trend in motion goes to conclusion? If there is one thing we have learned in this world; if there is a demand, someone will give it supply. (smile) As long as it's just paper on margin we want, they got plenty to sell. Now, if anyone starts shifting their buying habits away from paper, this game will end. But don't worry about that because everyone is waiting for someone else to start that trend. You see, it's just like a business cycle, the supply will build until demand falls away or the whole infrastructure disintegrates. I'm betting that the market itself will fail. One more thing, "Rasp", there is nothing wrong with owning mines. But we have to understand that their trading stock price is based on a never ending supply of paper gold. Knowing that, I expect my gold mines to match the paper price right to the end. But then, because they are a small portion of my bullion budget, the mine owners love me as I will keep them far longer than anyone else will. Perhaps across the valley and into the profit range we will all see the reasoning for this? (smile)"Man's just got to know his limitations",,,, and what he's buying! (smile)more later Black Blade (02/15/01; 10:36:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48285) RE: Boxman #48279 Hi there Boxman,I'm not certain why the price of NG is at al-time highs at the SoCal Hub. There are a couple of possibilities. The auction process signed into law by Kommissar Davis was not a stunning success for starters. There is a shortfall in energy in Kalifornia, however, NG supply comes from the other western states (including Texas). The NG supplied to Kalifornia is a spot delivery and this is only NG in excess of the other states domestic needs. If there is less NG available after domestic needs are met, then the price rises or falls based on supply-demand dynamics. If I knew the flow rates I might be able to determine the nature of the supply shortfall (if it is a supply driven dynamic). Conservation methods haven't helped much as energy continues to be consumed at a voracious rate. Also, over the last few days in the western states (including Kalifornia) there has been a lot of winter storm activity that has led to higher NG consumption throughout the west. Most homes in the west are heated with NG and any sharp drop (or rise) in temperature leads to increased consumption (heating or power for air-conditioning). The real squeeze will come in summer as temperatures could rise as they did last summer when the NG supply problems were first noticed by the consumer. This will continue to be the case. There is no turning back now, higher costs are here to stay. The FEDS also just stated that other states could not be forced to supply energy at capped prices. So now a free-market may be emerging and the result is $34.00 Mbtu. Of course suppliers are concerned about recovering past costs as well. This could be a way of stressing their "risk factor." PG&E and SoCal Edison are headed to bankruptcy, so out of state suppliers don't want to be left "holding the bag." How is your packaging indicator looking? Is business up or down? As I recall you said that business was slowing - perhaps an indicator of a slowing economy.BTW, what's with the POG this morning? Several bullish reports out for gold and the price dropped to $257! Looks like a fire-sale to me. - Black Blade JMB (02/15/01; 09:57:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 48284) The Clinton Dilemma According to Jim Cramer, as seen on CNBC earlier this morning, the Marc Rich pardon will bump Monica Lewinsky to the second paragraph of Clinton's obituary ( I'm not so sure he actually said "obituary", but read on).As we all know, our Bill has a great affinity for our most important minority, sometimes known as African Americans. For the record, I generally like Black People! Relax. So here's Bill's Dilemma.... When he ends up in prison for accepting a bribe, which gang will he join? THE BLOODS or THE CRIPS?I suggest THE CRIPS. He'll look very natty while sporting the fashionable BLUE DOO-RAG. (For you racially challenged white folk, that's the bandanna which all gang members proudly wear around their forheads for identification.)The ARIAN BROTHERHOOD has already taken a poll which indicates the existence of a very serious schism among the membership. Bill's bombing of the "Rag Heads of Iraq" (that's BROTHERHOOD lingo) was unanimously supported. However, The Serbian Slaughter has created some hard feelings. Maybe Bill should consider merging the CRIPS and THE BLOODS, if for nothing else than a patriotic fashion statement. Red and Blue on a face of White. VanRip (02/15/01; 09:41:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 48283) A new low?? During a local break in the Good Morning America show this morning, a local personal injury attorney made a new pitch for business. Usually these guys start off with, "If you've been injured in an auto accident or on the job...etc." But today the guy says, "If you've lost money in the stock market because your broker had you in too many high tech stocks or on too much margin, you may be able to recover damages, blah, blah, blah." Didn't mention gold stocks. Not enough potential business there, I guess. Heard a lot of these ads, but this is a first. I guess we can add 'stock loser chaser' to their 'ambulance chaser' way of doing business. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/15/2001; 8:32:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 48282) A clarification........ This pooh bear only exchanges paper honey for his physical gold. I reached an agreement with the queen bee a while back, I won't take their honey if they sell it forward to me. I don't have to climb trees, but the hive still works hard. At this rate I will soon purchase the hive outright, for paper! As soon as this bears name is over the hive door, all paper sales are off! Only a strict honey standard will be pursued. No more rumblys in my tumbly! Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/15/2001; 8:16:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 48281) POG $257! Wow! No Bull here! Just a very hungry pooh bear. Hungry for that yellow metal. How low can it go? I eagerly await it so! My honey buys much more now. Can it stay so low? Certainly hope so! Oh what a wonderful day to be alive to sniff this sweet smelling air. Happy days for this gold acquiring bear! Belgian (2/15/2001; 7:26:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 48280) Gold demand report.....WGC Belgium announced today, it will use the proceeds of the sale of 20 tons gold, during the last three year, as starter for a Pension Fund. Nothing has been said about the sales of these 20 tons, the past 3 years. They must have converted the dollars in Euro, when Euro-support was badly needed.Comments and reflexions on the WGC report and marketing action :- ...gold demand has set new records....gains came from jewellery consumption...but is not a significant price driver...investment demand remains subdued : WHY DO YOU SPEND 55 MILLION ON JEWELRY PROMOTION ????? Leave this kind of promotion to the jewelers : they are getting the 300% profits !!!! Goldmines are lucky if they make a 20% profit.The price-rise of Platinum has nothing to do with any marketing intitiative. Plain vanilla shortages were the cause !...further interest rate cuts will reduce the holding cost of gold... What an idiocy ! A POG, wich is lower than the total average producing cost is not interest-sensitive at all. Have a look at what happened in 1980 for example !...stealthy readjustment or apocalypse...What are you waiting for to promote a worldwide explanation of such "readjustment" or "apocalypse". Do the goldinvestors themselves have to do this job for you ? Offer = 2.500 tons and demand = 3.500 tons. 1.000 tons are filled with 400 tons WA-gold + 400 tons scrap + 200 tons non WA-gold. ...may become entirely dependent on above-ground stocks within 10 years : so, 400(WA-gold)+ 200(non WA-gold) = 600 tons x 10 years = 6.000 tons overhang of the total 32.000 CB-gold ? Correct ? ...Central Banks have not abandoned gold... ?????Is POG going to stay in a 10 year unprofitable price-range, and are official holders going to keep on selling, so that it will take 10 to 12 years to run out of enough gold to satisfy a 3.500 tons of yearly demand ???? Woman, did you add something unusual in my coffee this morning ???Next line makes it worse...CB's still have a cautious affinity for gold if you consider that official holdings are higher than they were three years ago !!!!! Howdihowdidoo...who has been buying the past 3 years ?Or are the governments publishing falsified reports ??? How can you suggest such a thing, naughty, naughty !...the only truly significant sellers have been " international financial institutions" ! well, well ,well...and who are these institutions and why did they sell ? Isn't this not interesting enough to elaborate on it ? Give us and other candidate gold-investors some positive - informative press, as to be able to make justified investment-decissions....total official holdings have only decreased 2,3% since 1997 leaving a billion ounces on the books... And in the above alinea you say that ...official holdings are higher than they were 3 years ago ???????????...gold for inspection...hahaaaaaaaa, please let's laugh together.etc...etc...The contradictions in all these (so called) gold-reports, are of no help to give us a better understanding of what is exactly going on.Naive as I certainly must be, I get that funny feeling of waisting my time with intensive study of these "gold-reports". Sorry, for waisting your time with it. Boxman (2/15/2001; 6:21:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 48279) So. CA Border spot price-$34.00-Nat. Gas http://www.piwpubs.com/gasprice.shtml Black Blade, any insight as to why the So. CA Border spot price has spiked up to $34.00? Gray Davis must be having a conipition fit. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/15/2001; 5:59:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48278) Turnaround,.....I wish the RLC lots of luck That has been tried before. The points as listed sound great (Although I differ on the trade position listed). The problem is: the Republican party has already forced many such people to leave. Pat Buchanan was vilified for his book "A Republic, Not an Empire" and campaigned on the other points listed as per the constitution. Buchanan supporters are in agreement with those positions yet had to leave the GOP. Illegal immigration and slowing current levels of immigration to allow a chance for assimilation into US culture is something Buchanan campaigned for that even the RLC apparently is either ignorant of or is too afraid to dig around the roots of that sacred GOP money tree. (To be "fair", the democrats call it a vote tree, and hug it with glee.)Conservatives and constitutionalists were locked in the basement at Philadelphia. The campaign consisted of who was promising the most goodies to the voters. The GOP genuflected for democrat voters before the nation! Also, the economy "is" great! (After the election debacle the economy is now cause for "concern".) And lets not let any other voices be heard on the national debates that WOULD have differed on the many issues that Bush and Gore were in such agreement. (Of course that can't be done, why, only a long standing democratic republic like MEXICO is able to pull that off.)The Republicrats and Demoplicans will never allow public opinion to be shaped for anything mandated in the constitution if they do not want it. An easy place to start would be currency fully redeemable in gold and silver. I wonder how that would fly in the RLC? Is it just another constitutional oversight? Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/15/2001; 5:00:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 48277) Perplexed,.......On federal taxation I agree! If you haven't visited before, drop by www.devvy.com . The raid on the IBT is another crime against all US citizens. Hill Billy Mitchell (2/15/2001; 3:41:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 48276) working-kirk @ # 48275 Sir, You say:...talking about the "Powers That Be...That implies that someone is in charge. In this wacky competitive world what makes you thing there is someone honestly in charge."Romans 13:1 ...The powers that be are ordained of God.(KJV)RespectfullyHBM working-kirk (2/15/2001; 2:46:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 48275) OVER_RATING THE POWERS THAT BE (TPTB) Perplexed (2/14/2001; 0:35:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 48222)Perplexed in this message said essentially when thing go to the worse possible conditions, the powers that be won't escape. I agree but I have to add a few thingsFirst the people in this group keep talking about the "Powers That Be"That implies that someone is in charge. In this wacky competitive world what makes you thing there is someone honestly in charge. Both the President and Greenspan have to deal with bureauacies. And the people who run them are either trying to set up their own empires. So likely they will just ignore them. For example California is in serious trouble. Do you think the Czars of the various state office will bother listening to either Bush, or Greenspan. Their attuitude will be for them to mind their own businessThere is someone who has the title of boss but from what I seen of Bush and Greenspan it is not them. I guess you imagine someone pulling their strings. Maybe some International Banker or some superrich family. Only problem is there are more than one set of international banker and those in the Arab and Asia country probably have a different agenda then those in Europe. So who gets to call the shots?Another point implied is these families are secretly salting away gold so when the crisis hit, they will ride it out on top a pile of gold bars. When the crisis hit, there going to be lots of confusion and plenty of opportunitists My guess is these oppontunitists will try things like knocking over Fort Knox and grabbing all they can during the confusion. Even if that doesn't happens who to say the various mobs won't try knocking off the current Powers That be so they can become the next Powers etc.As for sovereign individuals, I hope there are enough to return to a very strict republic or break away to form a country without government, just a civil society recognizing property rights. It will take only a small number. The bigger problem is the tremendous number of individuals who grew up dependant on handouts or work from the government. The rabble will rouse and there is a good chance they will elect a dictator of some sort. What is to prevent this dictator from totally destroy what left of this country, the world or worse.Well let hope that doesn't happen.THe only thing that will protect the individual will be a little bit of gold and silver,the courage to do one own thinking and act on your judgement and a lot of luck. Turnaround (2/15/2001; 2:43:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48274) Peter Asher, The Republican Liberty Caucus http://www.rlc.org "…The only way to oppose the collective dementia that is the political process is to eliminatepolitical decision-making by the near total elimination of government power, …The same kind of limit togovernment power that is embodied in the constitution, just taken further; into considering theineptitude of people to reach fixed decisions that do not backfire. [Particularly] putting an expiration date no more than 5 years in the future on all legislation."Peter Asher (02/14/01; 22:15:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48267)ORO: Who can we achieve this?Start our own Party????Try-The Republican Liberty CaucusA Report from the Three Day Meeting in Atlanta, Georgia By Sandra Price - Posted: 12.18.00www.SierraTimes.com I believe there is a new Republican group sitting right in front of us and I sampled their positions this last weekend at their convention in Atlanta Georgia. The name of this group is "Republican Liberty Caucus" and they have some of the brightest minds I have ever met or read. I came away from this convention with a positive and enthusiastic attitude that America has a future of freedom and liberty just waiting to be discovered. It was approved at the General Membership meeting that libertarian Republicans believe in limited government, individual freedom and personal responsibility; the government has no money nor power not derived from the consent of the people; people have the right to keep the fruits of their labor; and they believe in upholding the US Constitution as the supreme law of the land. I would like to explain that our guests for the 3-day meeting were Congressman Ron Paul of Texas who explained the problem facing the house in 2000 and 2001. ACTION! ACTION! ACTION! Now for the most exciting report are the new libertarian Republicans who wandered in and out of the entire convention. Each one had one shared agenda, which was to infiltrate the Republican Party and bring it into line with the libertarian Republican Party that is so necessary at this time. Our model is, of course, the success if the collectivists (socialists) to infiltrate into the Democratic Party. We feel the time has come to bring liberty and freedom back to America by searching out good house/senate representatives and getting them elected. REPUBLICAN LIBERTY CAUCUS POSITION STATEMENT Federalism: The power of the federal government should be limited, as per the 10th amendment to the U.S. constitution. Education: The U.S. Department of Education should be abolished, Health Care: Free market health care alternatives, such as medical savings accounts, should be available to everyone, including seniors. Medicare should be abolished Taxation: The tax system of the United States should be overhauled. Taxes should be imposed by legislative bodies, not by the judiciary nor by regulatory agencies. Welfare: The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services should be abolished, leaving decision making on welfare and related matters at the state, local or personal level. All Americans have the right to keep the fruits of their labor to support themselves, their families and whatever charities they so choose, without interference from the federal government. Criminal Justice: Every American has the right to keep and bear arms. All people, regardless of position in the public or private sector, should be held equally accountable under the law. The only litmus test for Supreme Court or other judges should be their determination to accurately interpret, not amend, the Constitution. Judges have no authority to make new law. Campaign Finance Reform: Election campaigns should not be subsidized by the tax payers. Federal Budget: There should be an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to require a balanced budget, provided it includes a supermajority requirement to raise taxes and provided it does not empower the judiciary to unilaterally raise taxes. Honest accounting dictates that all federal expenditures should be "on budget." Each budget should be derived based upon the justification for and needs of each program, with no program being either budgeted for or increased automatically. Government Reform: The following Agencies and Departments should be abolished, per the tenth amendment of the U.S. Constitution: The U.S. Department of Commerce, The National Endowment for the Arts, The National Endowment for the Humanities, The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. Subsidies to agricultural and other businesses should be eliminated. Trade: The U.S. government should inhibit neither the exportation of U.S. goods and services worldwide, nor the importation of goods and services. The U.S. should not be answerable to any governing body outside the U.S. for its trade policy. Defense: U.S. military should be deployed only where there is a clear threat to vital U.S. interests and only with the consent of the U.S. Congress. Property Rights: The government should not take private property without just compensation. All unconstitutional regulation of private property should be repealed. Drugs: While recognizing the harm that drug abuse causes society, we also recognize that government drug policy has been ineffective and has led to frightening abuses of the Bill of Rights …. All laws which give license to violate the Bill of Rights should be repealed. For further information on this Position Statement, please contact the national RLC office at 1-800-752-9646 The web site doesn't seem to be working too well today. tg (2/15/2001; 2:36:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 48273) (No Subject) http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/longwaves/2001/msg00351.html from longwaves siteIt's simply amazing that with all the deflationary signs that are clearly prevalent today (of course it helps to have professionally experienced the last inflationary Supercycle bear market period - in open-minded contrast), why so many supposedly objective observers and analysts hang on to, and make elaborate excuses (mainly naive long term supply/demand arguments, and that consumers won't stand for thepain of debt deflation) for fighting that last war, and for which they are supposedly historically educated to avoid. Let me count the deflationary ways: nine-year new lows in lumber prices - this scotches the recently popular silly argument that the "front end" of the economy is "already" rebounding with increasing mortgage refis and rebounding home sales; scrap steel prices back to 14-year low levels;incredibly collapsing new low prices in both 64 and 128 MBdram chips - this jump-across ditch is a black hole crevasse! Baltic Freight (shipping) Rate Index declining sharply - where are the inflation-crazed international trade buyers?the rolling over and sharply decelerating growth rates inALL the important official measures of OVERALL domestic inflation like GDP deflator, CPI, PPI and its components; synchronized global economic slowdown reducing demand;while unemployment stats obviously lag, initial unemployment claims are skyrocketing and even more leading job layoff announcements are already almost twice as high as all the spike highs during the past 8+ years portending declining nominal consumer income and a rising savings rate;19 states are already reporting shockingly lower revenue expectations due to the collapse in capital gains taxes;Getting apoplectically focused on oil prices last summer,