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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 8/15/2000 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Pete (08/15/00; 23:26:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 35009) Buchanan vs the republicRATS http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3999fb893148.htm Dear HBM,Put in simple words by a simple person without extrapolating a thesis of gigantic proportions of an imaginary clock(digital?), one will believe what one wants to believe. IOW's, usually what others tell them to believe.Best regards,Mustache Pete Canuck (08/15/00; 23:00:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 35008) End of an era http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_00/hamilton081600.html Essay from above link:"As the evidence becomes unassailable that there is a massive and concerted effort to cap the price of gold, the inscription on the gate of hell is very appropriate for those striving to repeal the immutable laws of supply and demand and artificially manipulate the price of the most important commodity in the history of the world. They have truly embarked on an endeavor which they have no conceivable chance or hope of executing successfully. In this essay we will explore some basic macroeconomics principles that demonstrate why all hope is lost for those who wish control the global gold market that is inherently uncontrollable."----------------------------------------------------------One sits back, eyes closed and ponders the future. The future is bleak. One questions himself to this conviction as if its painting a portrait of negativity, but in a clearer view it is the result of man's greed that the world is what it is. IMHO I see Asia and Europe preparing for the 'shakedown' that is to unfold. Two-thirds of the planet has been 'applying the brakes' for a long time while one-third keeps 'shovelling the coal to her.' This 'derailment'will be swift, cold and brutal. I suggest that modern times will back up a generation. We watch together, yes? The time comes quickly; store your 'nuts', save your pennies and convert to hard currency. Play your cards correctly; this is a win-win scenario. If we get a 'soft landing' no harm, no foul. If we get a 'hard landing' you have demonstrated intuition, a belief and a conviction. There is enough (plenty of it) evidence that money has run rampant. The economy is based on speculation, debt and leverage. There is very little proof of solid backbone to the 'new economy'. The government, the FED and chartered banks are slaves to the whimes and wishes of the 'momentumcurve'. Any person not 'hedged' to the dangers of a currency devaluation is not aware that a coin has two sides and is not aware that the dollar has been artifically inflated.When an economy has been 'floated' with billions and billions of dollars it stands to reason that when the 'prop' is removed it risks the chance of falling. As one becomes aware of the magnitute of the supporting propsit becomes necessary to 'hedge' more aggressively.So now we approach the point of no return; the stage is set.The media, perhaps including this forum (and this post), send us information that depict the outcome; as wide as a ocean from sunrise to sunset. Where is the truth? There is no truth Johnny boy, only an answer. Will financial and economic sanity resume, praise the powers that be? Or will a sharp falloff ensue, a crash and a burn? Few folks speak of another rip-roaring party like late '99 (I'm going to party likes it's 1999); there is little talk of stock prices in the lunch room anymore.I'm playing it safe; like my mother says better safe than sorry, which I have revised with my children "...always assume a position of safety." Gold is my hedge. I started with gold 2 years ago and my position has increased proportionately since. I admit, with zero regrets, having missed 'opportunity' during the run-up, I may have realized 25% of what was ready for the pickings but on the other hand I escaped April 2000. My investments made 10 - 12 % last year which I deem to be quite adequate and as an 'ace in the back pocket' I have the meanest, strongest anti-crash material known to man. I'm in a win-win scenario.Insurance, get you some. Black Blade (08/15/00; 21:49:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 35007) Switch out of Platinum to Gold Shares http://m1.mny.co.za/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B24225693C0052E73E?OpenDocument Black Blade: Certainly an interesting article. Though I can't recommend that anyone should follow this strategy, Gold is undervalued compared to PGMs at present. The recent de facto defaults in the TOCOM and NYMEX PGM makets make this an interseting argument. If anything it is worth reading for educational value. Black Blade (08/15/00; 21:43:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 35006) Good news for investors - Platinum demand set to increase http://www.miningweb.co.za/ From Miningweb, Good read:My objective here is to make readers aware of a few key facts and figures about platinum (Pt) and thereby to assist in the understanding of (a) why platinum's prospects are likely to improve in the medium to long-term future both in absolute terms and in terms of outperformance relative to palladium (Pd); and (b) to explain how platinum mining is the primary industry in respect of which SA has a global comparative advantage and for this reason alone an investment in platinum shares is a mandatory consideration for South African private and institutional investors alike. Most of the facts and figures stated here are from the latest Johnson Matthey (JM) report dated March 2000. Properties and uses of Platinum Group Metals (PGM's)Platinum (Pt) is one of 6 platinum group metals (PGM's) - the others of which are palladium (Pd), rhodium (Rh), ruthenium, iridium and osmium. PGM's have a wide range of chemical applications because of their apparently paradoxical catalytic activity and inertness and in this sense they appear to be unique amoungst all metals - both base and precious. Pt and Pd especially can be made into a "spongy" form whereby their exposed surface area is maximised and in this form they exhibit a high absorptive power for gasses - especially oxygen, hydrogen and carbon monoxide (CO). The high catalytic activity of Pt and Pd is related directly to this property and it is this property that is exploited in the exhaust gas conversion, petroleum processing and fuel cell catalytic applications. In exhaust gas or catalytic converters ("autocats") CO and other noxious hydrocarbons are converted into carbon dioxide. Both Pt and Pd are used for these but Pd is the more effective. In tri-metallic converters, Rh is added as this is the more effective catalyst for nitrogenous oxides which are converted into free nitrogen and oxygen. In fuel cells Pt (not Pd) catalyses the chemical reaction whereby hydrogen and oxygen are combined to produce water and electric current. In petroleum refining, Pt (not Pd) is used to raise the octane rating of fuel in a complex series of reactions. Pt is also softer than Pd and other PGM's and has a level of ductility comparable to that of gold making it the preferred PGM for jewellery. It can be considerably hardened by alloying it with Rh. Overall, in 1999 the following was the percentage breakdown for total Pt usage: Jewellery 51,4%; autocats 21,2%; electrical 7%; "Other" 6%; chemical 5,6%; glass 3,6%; investment 3,2% and petroleum 2%. "Other" uses are not detailed but JM do state that it is in "other" applications that the percentage growth is the greatest and indeed this is the case with the 9 and 5-year compound annual growth rate (CAGR) for "other" uses being 12%. The market for PGM'sOn the supply side, there is only one other source of PGM's on this planet that compares to SA and that is Russia. By a strange quirk of fate, Russia was endowed with over two thirds of the world's Pd and about 1 third of the world's Pt whereas SA has almost exactly the converse: just over two thirds of the world's Pt and under one third of the world's Pd. SA also has the bulk of the world's Rh. In terms of production (JM do not give figures for reserves in the ground but I'm sure that they are directly proportional to production), in 1999 SA produced 80% of the world's Pt (Russia 11%) and 23% of the world's Pd (Russia 67%). The 5-year (ie 1995 - 1999 inclusive) average split for Pt is SA 70%, Russia 23,1% and for Pd SA 23,4% and Russia 68,2%. North America and Canada are the single largest producing countries of the balance of all PGM's. In 1999 SA produced 81,8% of the world's Rh (Russia 13%) while the 5-year average is SA 72,2% and Russia 25%. In terms of ALL PGM's, in 1999 SA produced 46% of world supply while Russia produced 44,7%. The 5-year average rates are SA 43,3% and Russia 49%. With Pd's rising price in the last 3 years of the 1990's Russia has really had it good with Pd - much better than SA has had it with Pt - but that's all likely to change in future if current indications are fulfilled. The demand profile for PGM's is a lot more complex so I'll focus on Pt discussing the others only inasmuch as they impact on Pt. Contrary to popular perception, the most important application for Pt over the last 9 years (the years for which JM give historical data) has been in jewellery. In 1990 1,325m oz was used in autocats while 1,365m oz were used in jewellery. In 1999 those figures were 1,185m oz and 2,880m oz respectively. The autocats figure is net of recoveries of Pt from scrap (recoveries constituted 26,4% of gross demand in 1999) and the net reduction of Pt demand for autocats is because of the much increased demand for Pd, this metal being the far more effective carbon monoxide catalyst as explained above. Pd was used in increasing quantities, both absolute and relative to Pt, as autocat standards were increased - especially in Europe and the US. That is why Pd demand, and therefore the Pd price, has grown so much since January 1997 when it was about $120 dollars per oz. Since then it has rocketed to the current level of, let's say $750/oz - a CAGR in the price of 84% over the 3,5 year period. The CAGR for actual demand for Pd has been 42,8% over the last 9 years and 45,6% over the last 5 years having been 230 thousand ounces (koz) in 1990, 1690 koz in 1995 and 5685 koz in 1999. Getting back to Pt, while there has been a drop in net demand for newly mined Pt for autocats over the same period, the CAGR for jewellery demand over the 9 years 1990 to 1999 is 8,7%. In 1999 autocats demand stood for 21% of total Pt demand of 5,6m oz while jewellery demand stood for 51% of total Pt demand. It's clear then which has been the most important market for Pt. The biggest market for Pt jewellery has historically been Japan but of late (ie over the last 2 to 3 years) the Chinese market has become the most important in terms of growth and potential. To quote JM: In 1999 demand growth " ...was strongest by far in China where Pt sales rose by 53% to 950 thousand ounces (koz)". That's 33% of total jewellery demand. The thing about the Chinese market is the transformation that the Chinese economy is undergoing from being a primarily agricultural, peasant economy to being a modern industrial economy with a strong appetite for material affluence and "progress". This transformation is being accelerated by the internet (and other factors no doubt) and urban values and culture are spreading like wildfire into the vast rural areas as a result. Platinum jewellery demand was always strong in the cities of Beijing and Shanghai and this fashion is spreading with other urban values aligned with material affluence. Huge factories to mass produce Pt jewelery are being established to cater for strong market growth. While there has been a general swing to Pd in autocats during the latter half of the 90's, there are indications currently that there will be a swing back to platinum as Russia proves an unreliable supplier of Pd and as the Pd price remains high. General Motors and Nissan have already announced their intention to make the move back to Pt-based catalysts. In the Business Day of 10/8, it was reported that "Ford's Vice President for North America said "... that nine vehicle lines would switch from Pd-based to Pt-based catalytic converters over the next 12 months ...". So called "lean burn" engines are being introduced in response to stricter fuel specification requirements and these also favour Pt-based catalysts. On the 22/4/00, Degussa-Huls announced that it had developed a new Pt-based catalyst capable of meeting Euro stage IV and US ULEV regulations that would enable automakers to reduce consumption of Pd in favour of Pt. Rh deserves special mention because of its special importance to nitrogenous oxides conversion making its presence in autocats mandatory. The level of Rh demand has therefore grown slightly over the last 9 years showing a CAGR of 4,8%. Rh demand is likely to continue to remain stable at worst and, at best, grow at a higher rate in future as standards are tightened and as more countries, such as India and Korea, adopt emission control measures in the near future. Rh's price is so high (currently between $2400 and $2600/oz) because it has an occurrence in the Earth's crust of about 10% that of Pt and gold making it one of the scarcest of metals. For example, Amplats produced 176,7 koz of Rh in 1999 vs 1,861m oz of Pt. That's 9,5% of the Pt production figure. Considering that SA produces on average 72% of the world's Rh, that gives an idea of its relative scarcity. By far the biggest potential future demand for Pt will come from the development and eventual commercial application of fuel cells in vehicles and other static residential combined-heat-and-power (CHP) applications. Billions of dollars per annum are currently being spent on vehicle fuel cell development and prototype vehicles are already reality with General Motors, Ford and Daimler-Chrysler leading the way and all motor companies in there in some way or other, either in alliances or on their own. Full commercial production of fuel cell vehicles is targeted for around 2004 but "CHP applications could lead to significant Pt demand in advance of full-scale commercialisation of fuel cell automobiles". One important thing to know about fuel cell development and applications is that they do not impact on oil industry turf because fuel cell power sources will still use petroleum-derived fuel. How it works is that a so called "reformer" will convert any refined hydrocarbon fuel, such as ordinary petrol, into hydrogen which is, in fact, the "fuel" of a fuel cell. The hydrogen will then be converted into electrical power, water and heat via the Pt-catalysed chemical (not combustion) reaction. This is why fuel cell research has the full blessing and co-operation of the oilmen and why fuel cell vehicles will happen - provided of course that the consumer accepts them. The comparative advantage aspectSA has a clear comparative advantage in Pt production by virtue of its superior reserves and this is important to understand and appreciate. The world is moving towards a scenario wherein the primary rationale for the existence and profitability of any business will be based on global comparative advantage in terms of factors of production that are more or less inherently superior, cheaper and/or more abundant and which are inaliable in terms of that business's operating domain. Whether we talk about intellectual properties in the case of an internet company with no fixed physical abode or whether we talk about physical property such as ore in the ground, the whole world is the business context. There's nothing new about the concept of global comparative advantage as applied in national and international economics, but in the new millenium it will become of paramount importance as national boundaries and nationally defined and protected markets are rationalised to the global level by the internet. There will be literally "no place to hide" for any business that is not globally competitive. A natural resource such as Pt is not the only resource or factor of production in which SA has a comparative advantage (chrome is one mineral and electricity is one factor in that SA has probably the cheapest in the world) but Pt is probably the most concentrated and inaliable resource in respect of which SA has a comparative advantage. Platinum shares are then the one seriously profitable global business opportunity for landlocked capital in SA that the South African investor can know for sure cannot ever be beaten in any respect. The profitability of Pt mining in SA is geared up particularly for SA residents because of the rand hedge factor which owes its effect to the fact that as the rand weakens against the dollar, so dollar-to-rand converted metal sales revenue goes up in rand terms but rand-denominated costs remain constant. With every incremental weakness of the rand vs the dollar, the profit margin is thereby increased without any effort on management's part. To illustrate the effect of this over the last 8 years: On the 10/8/92 the 100-day moving average (DMA) of the dollar Pt price was $365 and now that same average is $535. That's a CAGR of a mere 4,9%. In rand terms however the 100-DMA was at R10 373 on the 10/8/92 and is now R36 613 - a CAGR of 17,1% over 8 years. If the dollar were to depreciate significantly against all major currencies (which it could if there was a shakeout on Wall St) then the rand hedge factor would certainly be reversed or at least reduced. But a dollar depreciation would mean lower Pt prices in terms of the consuming countries' currencies which could stimulate demand and compensate to an extent for the reduced (or reversed) rand hedge factor. Part of the comparative advantage equation is that currently our producers are the only ones in the world where Pt is mined as the primary product. This is very important because it means that production operations are planned according to Pt demand, not that of something else - usually nickel. The Russians produce PGM's as a by-product of Nickel at their primary producer, Norilsk Nickel. The same goes for the North American and Canadian producers. This means that Russian PGM output is hostage to that of nickel which constitutes unreliability of supply and undermines their ability to enter into long-term supply contracts and generally to secure long term confidence in supply which is a factor in technological choice. Quite simply, users of PGM's will tend to favour Pt where Pd could do the job just as well because of greater Pt supply certainty. In fact because our producers mine Pt as the primary product and nickel, cobalt, silver, copper and gold as by-products, the by-products actually subsidise the costs of PGM production which would be profitable anyway without the help of the by-products. This circumstance helps to explain the juicy cashflows of the platinum miners and their ability to fund huge capex programmes from internal cashflow. ConclusionPt demand seems set for a resumption of growth in autocats (driven by substitution of Pd) and by increased future fuel cell demand. The giant Chinese market for jewellery is also stirring. Demand is set for an increase provided the world continues to exist as we know it (ie that we don't get wiped out by an asteroid or a serious global recession). In fact, even in the event of a global recession, I suspect that the Pt price should show relative strength to that of other commodities because of the transformational nature of demand factors such as compulsory autocat applications, the shift to fuel cell-driven motors from internal combustion engines and the transforming and rapidly growing Chinese economy. Given a normal global economy, Pt demand is certain to increase proportionally (in relation to other PGM's) and absolutely thereby shifting the burden of aggregate global PGM supply more and more onto SA - a burden that no-one in the industry, or with Pt shares, is likely to bemoan. The growing demand, the shift in emphasis from the rest of the world to SA producers and the comparative advantage combined with the rand-hedge element are all compelling reasons for every South African to have some platinum shares in the bottom drawer. Leigh Collingwood writes his own newsletter and does research for private clients and can be contacted at lfc@lantic.net By: Leigh Collingwood Al Fulchino (08/15/00; 20:23:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 35005) Aristotle LifeA recipe and nutritional chart <taste isnt enough..>HealthA familyMap<I'll set my own course>HappinessBlueprint <with my own ideas>Personal wealth and securityA helping handPayment in fulland goldThanks for the excercise. HI - HAT (08/15/00; 19:35:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 35004) Peter Asher..............Greed too Fear Hello. The question your putting forth here, is hard to get a grip around.I believe the War/Gold relationship kicks in with a vengeance when that subtle shift takes place in mass psychology whereby the primal emotions are brushed by primordial FEAR.The foremost demarcation is the one over the line into UNCERTAINTY.The mass of men have been as under a spell of greed and mania for lo over 15 years. Hubris and complacency vie with invincability in the American heart.This sets the stage for War like events to trip wire a wave of events that elevates UNCERTAINTY to a reaction not unlikeBernard Baruchs example of the vast flock of sparrows, who are hell-bent in a certain direction and then, in an instant, all in perfect unison again completely change course.He asked, "why did they do that"So it will be when they go for the GOLD. Hill Billy Mitchell (08/15/00; 18:47:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 35003) Official release http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/releases/H15/update/ Official: Federal Reserve Statistical Release Release Date: August 15, 2000 Rates for Monday, August 14, 2000Federal funds 6.58Treasury constant maturities: 3-month 6.2710-year 5.7820-year 6.0030-year 5.70upside-down spread FF vs long bond = (0.88%) Hill Billy Mitchell (08/15/00; 18:39:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 35002) A.M. Peter,A.M. it is. My grand children's powder is dry and safely stored.HBM Peter Asher (08/15/00; 18:37:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 35001) HI - HAT (08/15/00; 17:43:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 34997) A few years ago, when we diverted a single Carrier to the Gulf, Gold Jumped $10.00 in a few hours (Circa $315-$325)A year later,a similar event did nothing, as in also the Kosovo fuss. What do you suppose changed, and how big a conflict will it now take to create a War/Gold relationship? Peter Asher (08/15/00; 18:31:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 35000) Hill Billy Mitchell (08/15/00; 17:22:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 34996) It's :AM if your doing somthing abiut it and :PM if you surrender! John Doe (08/15/00; 18:14:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 34999) Hill Billy Mitchell Actually, the model does incorporate the concept of anarchy nicely - that which is situated beyond the circle. And there are no qualifications of anarchy in this definition, only that there is a complete lack of government either good or bad. Thus the anarchic region beyond the circle may be good or bad, but most likely lacks the characteristics of an organized, preferably self-actualizing civilization.Clinton and Blair's much ballyhooed "Third Way" is easily incorporated in the model as well. Their "fresh, original, and newly discovered political path" is basically down the Center in reality, left of center) to Totalitarianism. And dimensionally, too, this makes sense, as the path down the middle is both quicker, less prone to falling into anarchy, travelling through the diameter as opposed to traversing one-half the perimeter via the extreme Left or Right ideologies on the way to Communism or Fascism.I believe anywhere in the area of the lower center of the bottom third of the circle is the optimum place to be. At the edge of the circle at six o'clock would be nice, ideally, but difficult to achieve and probably even harder to hold. Simply incrementally pushing towards that point would be a full-time effort, in and of itself. Hill Billy Mitchell (08/15/00; 18:11:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 34998) @ simply Pete Well I never (pinky in the air)Mr. simply Pete, No offence taken. I am embarrassed just a bit, for I have never in my life been told that I was "Politically correct."Let me restate in a way which might not ruffle so many feathers. I as per my post below, I am at 6:00 o'clock and Mr. Buchanan is not at 6:00 o'clock. I think he is nearer 3:00 o'clock than any where else on the clock.I would like to know your opinion as to where you are on the clock and where you think Buchanan is on the clock.RespectfullyHBM HI - HAT (08/15/00; 17:43:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 34997) Bobbo............WAR THREATS Chinese "Art Of WAR", could be hitting on all cylinders soon.World could witness conflicts taking place in 4 different theaters.1. Taiwan2. Kashmiri-India3. Middle-East4. The whole Colombia mess, (which could involve Venezuala and Panama CanalThese kind of events would break the psychological myopiatowards the GOLD. Hill Billy Mitchell (08/15/00; 17:22:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 34996) John Doe @ # 34989 I drew your circle.Sir, you are saying much the same thing as Gary Allen, with a view of the spectrum from above.Allen presents the same picture from a the perspective of standing on the same plain which he views.Both pictures are two-dimensional. Someone out there should work on a three-dimensional perspective, possibly spherical in shape.By the way, Sir John, I been groping for words, short and sweet, which would best describe my political philosophy. You have, in your example, provided the exact words which I have been searching for. I am a "Libertarian leaning constitutional Republican". So that no one misinterprets this let me say loudly and clearly that the word republican cannot stand alone. It only applies if coupled with constitutional as in "Constitutional Republic" and has not even the remotest connection with the So called "Republican Party."As I observe both models of the political spectrum I find myself in the same position in either case - very close to anarchy. It is unfortunate that the word anarchy carries negative connotations. It is really a wonderful word and does not imply chaos.You have been helpful. I could have saved all this time and simply stated that I am politically at 6 O,Clock. Would that be AM or PM (smile)Respectfully,HBM Journeyman (08/15/00; 16:00:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 34995) Find Your Political Position @ALL but particularly John Doe -- & Topaz http://web.cln.com/archives/atlanta/newsstand/092896/t_boortz.htm For those of you who haven't seen or taken this "quiz" yet, it is a great tool to find out just where you (or a friend) stands. It's not two dimensional, but more like John Doe describes.Anyway, are you really a "Commie/Fascist/Nazi AU bug", Topaz? Take THE TEST and find out.Regards,JourneymanP.S. WARNING: A formerly leftist friend of mine, after several years of exposure to my propaganda, stumbled on THE TEST himself, and called me in consternation. "You'll never guess how I tested," he said. "Libertarian," I guessed. "Yea," he said -- "But only just in the corner," he hedged. Buena Fe (08/15/00; 15:09:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 34994) oil API data shows rise in oil--4:59 pm - By August ColeNEW YORK (CBS.MW) -- American Petroleum Institute inventory data released Tuesday indicated crude oil stocks rose over 7 million barrels whereas gasoline stocks fell 3.34 million barrels for the week. Crude futures have risen since the previous week's data indicated a decline in supply. Crude futures closed below $32 a barrel after notching the highest level since late June, ending the day off 27 cents at $31.67. Journeyman (08/15/00; 14:54:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 34993) I DON'T vote --- that's why I HAVE grounds to complain. @Topaz msg#: 34970 "Now if an American chooses NOT to vote he then has no grounds to complain."If the guy you cast your vote for wins, and he does something to you you don't like, well -- you voted for him so you have no grounds to complain.If the guy you cast your vote for loses, and the winner does something to you you dont' like, well -- you participated and lost 'fair and square' -- so what are you complaining about.But I didn't participate. I don't care to be involved with these groups of lying thugs. If they do something to me I don't like, I have every right to complain -- they involved me against my will and without the tacit approval a vote from me would have given.And you DON'T have to vote in Australia. The law says you have to, but screw that so-called law. In Germany just prior to WWII, if you were Jewish it was also the so-called law that you had to wear a "Star of David" to identify yourself for the "pleasure" of the authorities.In the U.S., a so-called law that is unconstitutional is null and void on its face as if it had never even been passed and citizens are not obliged to obey it. This is jurisprudence, but I don't have the cite at my mouse-tip & sorry, but no time to look it up right now.Regards & you are your own person,JourneymanP.S. I read all your posts & appreciate the perspective and info. I consider this a minor disagreement & hope you won't hate me forever ;> for typing it! Knallgold (08/15/00; 13:34:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 34992) Large Block selloffs If all will/must hold together until the elections: a window to unload big positions in stocks? A guarantee by the PPT?But then we will have a feedback if too many try to run for the hills in too short a time. Aristotle (8/15/2000; 13:00:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 34991) A General Inquiry--What would you rather have... Life, or a birth certificate?A tasty meal, or a recipe and nutritional chart?Health, or an insurancy policy?A family, or a family tree?An open highway, or a map?Happiness, or a greeting card?A house, or a blueprint?Personal wealth and security, or government and corporate bond and stock certificates?A helping hand, or a promise?Payment in full, or an I.O.U.?Gold, or a bank account of national paper/digital currency?Get you some. ---Aristotle TownCrier (8/15/2000; 12:00:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 34990) The European model Snapshots of ECB weekly financial statements from each of two adjacent quartersTHEN--(for the week ended April 14)--ECB total gold assets unchanged at 115.677 billion euros--ECB net foreign exchange assets down 1 bln from 265 to 264 billion eurosNOW--(for the week ended August 11)--ECB total gold assets unchanged at 120.911 billion euros--ECB net foreign exchange assets down 500 mln to 260.6 billion eurosTheir physical gold, owned outright and the liability of no other nation, enjoys an overall rising valuation within the vaults of the European Central Bank and its Euro System Member CBs...even with Austrian gold mobilizations factored into this time period!Meanwhile the value of their net holdings of foreign exchange paper, the "obligations" of others, continues to decline.Though somewhat out of the intended context, you can nevertheless almost hear the voice of ANOTHER saying, "If you are one of 'small worth', can you not follow in the footsteps of giants? I tell you, it is an easy path to follow!" John Doe (8/15/2000; 11:08:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 34989) Hill Billy Mitchell My preferred model of the political spectra is a circle, actually, the area enclosed within a circle.Imagine a clock face. Six o’clock is a Libertarian-leaning, Constitutional Republic, with full guarantees of individual rights and strict limits on the money influence and actions of corporations, the church, and the state. Twelve o’clock represents the Global Transnational Totalitarian Dictatorship the world is apparently being brainwashed to accept. Nine o’clock is the Far Left and three o’clock is the Far Right.Note the following characteristics: Just as six o’clock lies opposite twelve o’clock, responsible, near-total individual freedom sits opposite unaccountable, near-total slavery. The ideologically barren Far Left sits opposite of the equally barren Far Right. Either the Far Left or the Far Right will lead the country and the world away from freedom and towards slavery. Yet, in the end, it matters not which "ideology" drove us away from freedom, for the result is the same.However, it is not necessary, nor even likely, that the political process functions solely along the circumference of the circle. The reality is that the process plays out within the circle as an insidious mixture of left and right policies constantly tugging our Republic from it moorings, away from freedom and towards tyranny.I estimate the USA is somewhere in the lower part of the upper-left quadrant, well on the way to tyranny with a (currently) Leftist bent. The world's six billion, as a whole, are in the same quadrant, but a bit further to the left and a bit closer to total slavery. These points are not fixed, as they meander around a little, left to right, and up and down, but the main trend this past century is unmistakable – slowly and methodically, we're heading for midnight.My apologies for veering of the main topic, but, due to the constant media campaign to divide and confuse the people in matters both political and economic, I see so much confusion as to the big picture. It is my fervent hope that this model, for those interested, will lend clarification and serve as a point of departure for future political discussion, both public and private. John Doe (8/15/2000; 11:08:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 34988) Hill Billy Mitchell My preferred model of the political spectra is a circle, actually, the area enclosed within a circle.Imagine a clock face. Six o’clock is a Libertarian-leaning, Constitutional Republic, with full guarantees of individual rights and strict limits on the money influence and actions of corporations, the church, and the state. Twelve o’clock represents the Global Transnational Totalitarian Dictatorship the world is apparently being brainwashed to accept. Nine o’clock is the Far Left and three o’clock is the Far Right.Note the following characteristics: Just as six o’clock lies opposite twelve o’clock, responsible, near-total individual freedom sits opposite unaccountable, near-total slavery. The ideologically barren Far Left sits opposite of the equally barren Far Right. Either the Far Left or the Far Right will lead the country and the world away from freedom and towards slavery. Yet, in the end, it matters not which "ideology" drove us away from freedom, for the result is the same.However, it is not necessary, nor even likely, that the political process functions solely along the circumference of the circle. The reality is that the process plays out within the circle as an insidious mixture of left and right policies constantly tugging our Republic from it moorings, away from freedom and towards tyranny.I estimate the USA is somewhere in the lower part of the upper-left quadrant, well on the way to tyranny with a (currently) Leftist bent. The world's six billion, as a whole, are in the same quadrant, but a bit further to the left and a bit closer to total slavery. These points are not fixed, as they meander around a little, left to right, and up and down, but the main trend this past century is unmistakable – slowly and methodically, we're heading for midnight.My apologies for veering of the main topic, but, due to the constant media campaign to divide and confuse the people in matters both political and economic, I see so much confusion as to the big picture. It is my fervent hope that this model, for those interested, will lend clarification and serve as a point of departure for future political discussion, both public and private. Bobbo (8/15/2000; 11:06:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 34987) China upgrading military in Nanjing, Spratly Islands The winds of war are again beginning to blow. Are the dogs about to be unleashed? Earlier reports by intelligence communities have indicated that probable Chinese action against Taiwan will begin this fall. Below is an article indicating that China is interested in more than trade, mr bubba.Other international hot-spots: Kashmir (reports indicate that nuke war is possible and perhaps closer than anyone wants to believe), Middle East (confirmed troop movements by several countries...in anticipation of Arafat's Palestinian declaration of nationhood expected Sep 13, 2000), plus other less radical, but possible flare-up hot-spots which I will not mention at this time. GOT GOLD? Oil near Gulf War highs...GOT GOLD? USD weakening today...GOT GOLD? Inflation Genie, which has already been released, is about to appear from the smoke...GOT GOLD?From U.S. Defense:Tuesday, Aug. 15, 2000 SE ASIA | The Chinese People's Liberation Army has designated the Nanjing military district as the main battle theater for any struggle against Taiwan, Chinese press reported earlier this month, even as the PLA improves its military facilities in the Spratly Islands.According to the Hong Kong Ta Kung Pao newspaper, dated July 22, PLA military officials have begun preparing the Nanjing district as the main theater of battle in a war with Taiwan and foreign interventionists.During a forum of Communist Party committee secretaries, Fang Zuqi, political commissar for the Nanjing Military Region emphasized that for the army, "the most realistic and most urgent task is to step up efforts to get well prepared for military struggle," the paper said.The Nanjing Command includes Army and Air Force units stationed in Shanghai, Jiangshu, Zhejang, Fujian and Anhui; the coastal regions of Fujian and Zhejang face Taiwan directly."According to PLA tradition, the stressing of ideological and political work before a military struggle is often the precursor to mobilization," noted analysts at the American Foreign Policy Center.Meanwhile, the PLA Navy is continuing to upgrade its "fortress buildings of the sea with combat readiness capability" on atolls in Nansha, or Spratly, Islands, according to the Beijing Jiefangjun Bao paper.Included in the upgrade are the island's command and control infrastructure, helicopter landing pads and zones, and communications capability. The goal, one analyst said, was to create unimpeded contact among atoll fortresses across the South China Sea, command centers and warships on duty.Earlier in August, the Chinese navy began to increase its wartime mobilization plans by incorporating civilian transport and container ships into military exercises conducted by the navy.The drills were designed to provide training for the transport of troops and equipment across the narrow Taiwan Strait; the Taiwanese mainland rests just 100 miles across the straits from China and well within ballistic missile range, analysts said.According to an Aug. 3 Xinhua news agency report, the mobilizing of civilian vessels across the province began four years ago to, "form a magnificent picture of the people's war under modern conditions."So far, nearly a dozen exercises have been conducted, reports said.Chinese press accounts said the vessels, which were largely fishing-type ships and smaller craft, "constitute an important transportation force ofsupporting the Army in future sea-crossing battles . . . These ships havegood mobility, low logistics requirements, long navigational range andadvanced communications equipment."In a recent exercise, "several tens of thousands of elite troops were transported by more than 1,000 civilian vessels," Xinhua said.And last week, China held its first public air raid drill in Shanghaiin 50 years. The drill involved middle school students and was held 30 kilometers west of the city center, the Shanghai Daily said. "There will be regular drills which are designed to strengthen the residents' sense of national defense," the paper said. SHIFTY (8/15/2000; 10:17:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 34986) Kitco Back Up The Kitco chart has been repaired.$hifty TownCrier (8/15/2000; 10:01:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 34985) To Sir Cavan Man, RE: LBMA stats My good sir, the 25% drop in LBMA cleared ounces I quoted in yeserday's TownCrier (08/14/00; 21:14:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 34954) reflects the size of the drop in July 2000 versus the previous month of June 2000. This is an all-time low for the London Bullion Market Association. Also falling to an all-time low were the number of daily transfers. (It appears that people are taking their leave from this arena while they still have a chair to sit upon, does it not?)Since you brought it up in your question, compared to last year's figures, these numbers for July 2000 are about one-third lower than they were in 1999 at this same time of the season. SHIFTY (8/15/2000; 9:38:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 34984) The Stranger Where is our friend? I don't think he said anything about going away did he? I hope he is well.$hifty SHIFTY (8/15/2000; 9:34:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 34983) Just "plain" Pete Pete: you said " All I can ask of you and others is to review his views honestly and with an open mind while considering the motives of the smear campaigns against him."That's it in a nut shell!Thank you Pete, Pete (8/15/2000; 9:07:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 34982) HBM, Buchanan or Barbarism http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~dadams/pcsex.htm Dear HBM,Thank you for your civil response. No offense taken and I hope the same applies to you. The above link will give you an idea of what PC is about. IMHO, Buchanan has been demonized and ostracized by the media with the use of PC. They have taken out of context many of his statements and twisted them to suit their agendas. Basically PC is the use of rhetoric to call those that do not agree with them intolerant, bigoted, homophobes, hateful while at the same time exhibiting the same hate and intolerance they accuse others of.Innocence on your part is a trait to be admired. We would all be better off if the majority were humble and innocent, IMHO. My contention is that Buchanan is far from being what many(majority) have called him. The man had the world by the ass as a reputable conservative news commentator not to mention serving under various republican administrations. He has thrown the comfort of reputation and monetary compensation out the door by bolting from the republican party to run for president on the reform party ticket. This was done to alert as many Americans as he could about the hypocrisy, immorality, lies and machinations of the major parties. It took courage and moxie on his part to call a spade a spade, the signs of a true patriot. He had to be stopped by the liberal media and both parties because he was a threat to the establishment. The idea of voting for the lessor of two evils is repugnant to me and not a solution for the morass our politicos have saddled us with. All I can ask of you and others is to review his views honestly and with an open mind while considering the motives of the smear campaigns against him.I will consider the libertarian and green parties also before I cast my vote. Gold, honest money, the restoration of our constitutional rights and a return to sanity in our government are my main concerns.Thank you for listening,Not Sir but "PLAIN" Pete Peter Asher (8/15/2000; 9:07:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 34981) HBM, Shifty Very well stated opinions this morning! True and dignified Forum debate. USAGOLD (8/15/2000; 8:42:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 34980) Today's Comments: Strong Physical Demand Underpins Gold Market http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html DAILY COMMENTARY (8/15/00) www.USAGOLD.com . . . Gold tracked sideways in the early going after a quiet night overseas despite dollar weakness and a significant jump in crude oil. Physical buying remained "good" at these levels, according to Standard Bank of London, but not enough to shake gold out of yesterday's lethargy. It stands as noteworthy that physical purchases remain a factor in current gold pricing despite summer's doldrums and the fact that we have yet to see the benefits of seasonal buying from India. The very strong demand numbers out of Asia reported by the World Gold Council are also worth taking into consideration. We continue to believe that Asian demand, fueled by currency meltdowns in that part of the world three years ago, will strongly underpin the gold market for years to come. No follow-through on Friday's stealth up tick at the end of the New York session was detected in yesterday's trading, but that's not to say that there isn't some short-covering lurking in the shadows as suggested here yesterday. We would add the potential for significant gold short to dollar weakness and physical demand as a possible chief inducement for higher prices in the near to medium term. With the extant short position doubling over the last two weeks, Friday's CFTC Commitment of Traders numbers indicate a strong latent demand for gold that could touch off a late summer, early fall rally. Yesterday's surprise performer was oil -- up another $1 and now trading at over $32 per barrel, the highest level in nearly a decade. Crude got an additional boost when Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez declared current price levels "fair" and that they should be "maintained." Oil prices drive inflation not only in the United States but around the world, and at some point, the denied becomes undeniable, even in nations immersed in the electoral process. In what may echo as a faint warning in the United States, Germany, a nation with a traditionally low inflation rate, yesterday reported its highest inflation at the wholesale level in over a decade -- .3% for the month of July with wholesale prices rising 5.8% over the past twelve months. The German inflation situation tracks back to gold via a stronger euro possibly induced by EU interest rate increases, and the break in the dollar many analysts feel essential to any further upside in the gold price. That's it for today, fellow goldmeisters. We'll see you here tomorrow. We hope you like the addition of Live News to this page. We invite you to visit here frequently to keep up with the news on gold and the economy. Please e-mail your comments to the sitemaster@usagold.com. If you are looking for a source of news, commentary and analysis on gold and all that affects it, we invite you try a free trial subscription to our widely read monthly newsletter, News & Views: Forecasts, Commentary & Analysis on the Economy and Precious Metals. We offer solid commentary in a rapid fire, no-nonsense, bullet format designed for busy people who want gold related news and opinion without the unnecessary fluff. Please call Marie at 1-800-869-5115 or click above to request News & Views as well as our helpful introductory information packet for gold investors. We invite you to stay tuned to the gold market through our DISCUSSION FORUM featuring round the clock gold news & commentary from the public. PLEASE REMEMBER: It is your purchase of gold from Centennial Precious Metals that nourishes these pages. Call us at 1-800-869-5115 for prices and to have your questions answered. Henri (8/15/2000; 8:02:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 34979) Bonedaddy - message in a bottle returned I really like that analogy. Thanks, you have made my day. Its the type of thing that enhances the quality of our lives. You struck a chord within me. I continue to lust for a vision of what will next appear. When events unfold differently than the vision, I am not disappointed but elated. It means I have much more to learn. Black Blade (8/15/2000; 7:57:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 34978) Ashanti Hedge Fund a Failure! Ashanti H1 hit by fall in gold hedge priceLONDON, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Ghanaian mining company Ashanti Goldfields Co Ltd reported on Tuesday a sharp fall in first-half earnings due to a drop in its realised gold price compared with the previous year. But Ashanti, which came close to collapsing last year due to huge losses on derivatives, said total gold production jumped 26 percent year-on-year to 433,050 ounces -- its second highest quarter on record. First-half earnings were $13.3 million, down from $37.9 million in the same period last year. Second quarter earnings were $6.4 million, down $10 million from Q2 1999 and $0.5 million below the first quarter of this year. ``The fall in earnings for the second quarter was due primarily to a $44 fall in the realised price of gold from $380 (Q2 1999) to $336 per ounce, higher interest charges and depreciation,'' the company said in a statement. The spot price of gold rose over the year to $281 in the second quarter but the company's hedging strategy failed to deliver as strong a result as the previous year. A spokesman for the company said a Ghanaian Serious Fraud Office investigation of Ashanti's management contract with Lonmin Plc at Ashanti's Obuasi mine was still in the early stages. The SFO had not identified any specific breaches or made charges against the company in its investigation of the mine, which produced around 40 percent of Ashanti's gold in the second quarter, Ashanti said. Black Blade; Thou shalt reap what you sow! And then some! HAHAHAHA Black Blade (8/15/2000; 7:27:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 34977) PGMs higher, very interesting...... Looks like the institutional players are taking on the paper PGM markets. The small players are forced out. The metal itself should rocket higher irregardless of the NYMEX market. Pd is up +$23.00, and Pt up +$7.00. Cavan Man (8/15/2000; 6:33:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 34976) Town Crier 34954 Town Crier--That 25% drop "on the month" as reported; is that a comparison of July 2000 volume to July 1999 volume?Thanks... Cavan Man (8/15/2000; 6:29:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 34975) Book Recommendation To All This book, written from research (much provided from FOIA materials)compiled over many years, seems to conclusively prove that the attack on Pearl Harbor was a desired outcome of US foreign policy in the Pacific. We knew the attack was coming and kept that inforfmation from the Navy and Army (Kimmel & Short) base commanders.The author does not make a judgment on FDR's strategy. He does however bring to light the deceit, duplicity and deception practiced by those involved in the events leading up to Pearl and the subsequent cover up(s)."Day of Deceit": The Truth About FDR And Pearl HarborBy Robert B. Stinnett Black Blade (8/15/2000; 6:25:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 34974) "Morning Wakeup Call!" Oil is really Rocket-Fuel, NYMEX defaults on Pd, and the Chinese soon will have free access to Gold! Sources: Bridge News, and CNNfn THE EASTERN FRONT:Asia Precious Metals Review: Spot gold trades at US $274 levelBy Mari Iwata and Polly Yam, BridgeNewsTokyo--Aug. 15--Spot gold traded at the U.S. $274 level in Asian trading on Tuesday in sluggish activity as the metal lost the price direction after rising the previous two days, dealers said. Spot palladium extended the overnight's weakness to Asia in thin trading, while silver was supported at $4.82 per ounce, they said.Black Blade: Nice time to accumulate physical. Au and Ag looks good. Pd markets are as good as dead. The game is over except in physical supplies. The NYMEX just as well delist Pd now that they have for all practical purposes have declared "Force Majuere" and obviously have no intention of honoring their commitments. The Russians would do well to produce Pd if they could and jack up the price of physical to somewhere north of $1000.00 as the paper chase is over. Maybe Stillwater Mining (SWC) can renegotiate their paper positions as a result or at least force the issue in the courts. Hmmmm……. Just an idea.China firms sell gold to end-users on expected deregulation Hong Kong--Aug. 15--Some Chinese gold producers have started selling part of their output directly to Chinese end-users on expectations that the government will deregulate the tightly-controlled domestic gold market soon, producer sources said Tuesday. The sales are being made despite the People's Bank of China's (PBOC) requirement that gold producers sell all output to it through local state-owned banks at fixed prices and end-users buy from it at fixed prices. (Story .10913)Black Blade: Could be the start of a whole new Chinese generation set loose on the gold market. This could be interesting as nearly 1 billion people will have free access to gold!THE WESTERN FRONT:CFTC approves price limit increase for CBT grains, metals Chicago--Aug. 14--The Commodity Futures Trading Commission Monday announced approval of a proposal by the Chicago Board of Trade that increases the maximum daily price fluctuation limits for agricultural and precious metal contracts. The controversial proposal was made by the CBT in May in response to technical problems encountered with the Eurex trading platform, which was found unable torecognize limits. (Story .16765)Black Blade: The potential here for higher limits on contracts should be interesting as the markets become wildly volatile during the upcoming oil crunch and market crash. Of course, they could just as easily default like the TOCOM and NYMEX did with Pd. I see that Ted Butler on the other forum is pounding this point home as well, Right on Ted, go for it!Crude oil at 10-year high Brent futures rise to $32.55 amid low U.S. stockpiles, tough Venezuela talkAugust 15, 2000: 7:20 a.m. ETLONDON (CNNfn) - Brent crude oil futures jumped to a 10-year high in London on Tuesday, extending recent gains amid concerns about low U.S. inventories, tough talk about production from OPEC member Venezuela and suspicion that Saudi Arabia may not keep its promises for higher output. The price of Brent futures for September delivery rose $1.07, or 3.4 percent, to $32.55 per barrel, blasting through the previous 10-year peak of $31.95 set in March on the International Petroleum Exchange. It hit as high as $32.80 earlier in the day. The latest driver for the gains has been tough talk by Venezuela about the need for members of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries to earn enough money from oil at current prices to develop their economies. Saudi Arabia, the leading OPEC producer, is said to be at loggerheads with Venezuela about production plans. Analysts said a report last week that, by some measures, showed 24-year lows in U.S. crude oil stocks has been the leading cause for the price spike. That was the most important of an array of factors - including lower output by Iraq since early June, rumors that Saudi Arabia may not keep promises of greater output, and near-capacity output by OPEC countries that aren't located in the Middle East, which suggests they can't produce any more. One analyst also said Wednesday's expiration of the September Brent futures contract, to be replaced by the October contract, was adding an extra dose of volatility to a market that's already faced big price pressures. "What we're partly faced with is a temporary aberration," said Peter Gignoux, an oil industry analyst at Salomon Smith Barney in London. "But even if we fast-forward to tomorrow [after the contract change] we're still at $30 a barrel - which is about 10 percent above the year's average." The Brent futures contract for October delivery traded early Tuesday afternoon at $30.07 per barrel - a difference of $2.48 from the September contract level. "The market simply thinks that there's not enough oil on the market and is Theorizing that were going to see continued high levels of consumption," Gignoux said.The surge for oil prices comes ahead of the American Petroleum Institute's weekly release of numbers on U.S. crude and refined oil inventories after the close of trading in New York on Tuesday. Recent API reports have pointed to heavy draws on the U.S. stockpile, analysts said. "And then there's something going on with the trading patterns," said one analyst who spoke on condition on anonymity. "There are a small number of players in an active market. It looks like a squeeze," he said, citing technical moves by investors who got caught betting prices would fall. Saudi Arabia, facing concerns from U.S. officials that higher oil prices could dampen the scorching U.S. economy, agreed last month to boost its output. Those supplies, which usually take about 45 days to be delivered from Saudi Arabia's oil fields, haven't arrived yet, leaving a cloud of uncertainty over the market. One analyst said speculation has cropped up in recent weeks that Saudi Arabia may not hold to those promises of higher production, which helps to drive down oil prices, after September.Black Blade: Tonights API numbers could be interesting. Of course we have discussed this for quite some time now, but the analysts as usual are a "day late, and a dollar short" as they once again arrive to the party late.Meanwhile, S&P Futures are down -0.60, Fair Value down -0.64, almost a neutral bias at the Wall Street open. Oil prices could be the damper. Oil and oil related stocks used to be about 30% of the S&P 500 in 1980, today Tech is about 30% of the S&P 500. Could we see a reversal soon? Maybe, look for oil related issues to lead the way today! NY crude Oil is now up +$0.60 to $32.54/bbl and looking strong ahead of tonights API numbers (after the NY markets close). Au is off a nickel at $274.25, Ag is off 2 pennies at $4.84, Pt is up +5.00 at $563.00 (at least one can but Pt physical! And makes up for Pd being absolutely unavailable!), and Pd is down -$5.00 at $735.00 as the default on NYMEX is felt in the metals paper markets. wolavka (8/15/2000; 6:23:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 34973) watch 281-82 in dec, we go thru it then should go, little dip is expected. SteveH (8/15/2000; 6:19:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 34972) Oil futures do seem to approaching lift off... now close to $33/bbl. Topaz (8/15/2000; 5:30:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 34971) SPOT? http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html Mr Squiggle (Kitco Spot) seems to have run out of Ink this AM!MK's current price is $277 less change. (Link above)Other ref has SPOT @ $272ish- down 2 bucks!Wolavka- you da Man-Get in there and FIX it! Topaz (8/15/2000; 5:06:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 34970) Shifty Hi Shifty,Great to see someone out there trying to "make a difference"....Once there was this little ol Ram........The big difference with our & your system is we HAVE to vote, you guy's CHOOSE to vote.Now if an American chooses NOT to vote he then has no grounds to complain.My understanding is a large percentage of the population are in this catergory- No? "Their" achilles heel would be to muster a groundswell of support from the above group who don't vote- Yes?"GO" the Commie/Fascist/Nazi AU bug ;-) Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 2:31:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 34969) Official release http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/releases/H15/update/ Official: Federal Reserve Statistical Release Release Date: August 14, 2000 Rates for Friday, August 11, 2000Federal funds 6.50Treasury constant maturities: 3-month 6.2910-year 5.7920-year 6.0430-year 5.72upside-down spread FF vs long bond = (0.78%) SHIFTY (8/15/2000; 2:16:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 34968) Hill Billy Mitchell I like the libertarian party . I would like to see Harry Brown in the debates. But I fear if we cant get the debates open to political parties with ballet access in all 50 states we will never be able to rid our Republic of this corruption. Im off to bed.Good night all$hifty SHIFTY (8/15/2000; 1:56:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 34967) elevator guy /all I fear that you are correct. George Dubya if elected will do as he is told.I wrote letters to my Representatives starting back about 1990 and rarely did I get a response. I always heard from the S.O.B. when election time would roll around. My Congressman was going to have a meeting down town and all were invited . I thought I would go to hear what he had to say. There was about 150 people. A whole lot more could have come ( we have about 25,000 ) but I guess they had more important things to do . Well he( my old congressman) said his speech and was doing a Q&A . He was at the front of the room and there was a line of people with different questions. Out of all the discussion there that day I don't remember too much , but there is however one that stands out in my mind and I will never forget it. A few Mexican workers were there and the one guy , also Mexican was wearing a nice suit and had a briefcase. He spoke English and had handed me a flier when I got there. I read it and now I was going to see what my congressman was going to do for these people.I watched as they moved up the line . When they got to the front, he ( my congressman)would not give them the time of day. I could not believe it. From what I remember he was rude to them and they left . You want to know what their problem was? They were hoping he would help them start legislation to get the fern growers to put a portable toilet for the women at the fields they were picking so that they did not have to squat in front of the other workers. I don't think they knew he was in the fern growing business. I don't know if they ever got there portable toilets but that was where I knew things where out of hand. I knew that this guy was not ever going to get me to vote for him ever again. In 1992 he lost his seat!I will say here I support the reform party , I helped build it! I have worked hard for years helping build the reform party. It's made up of folks like us all across the country. Most of them have had enough of this crap we all complain about. I started after I heard Perot say " if the people put him on the ballot in all 50 states he would run". My wife and I got busy and we did it with the help of a whole bunch of " AMERICANS" . I did not get involved to be stylish. I'd " HAD ENOUGH! That was 1992 and we did not stop after election day, we started a group that met regularly . We were the first chartered United We Stand America group in the state. That gave way to the reform party. Its not about Perot or Buchanan its about Americans getting off there ass and getting involved. The rift at the reform party convention will get straightened out. But the media and the powers that be play it for all its worth. We have times like that here at this forum and our host has had to stop it. The Reform party has no host to step in and put an end to a dispute, it will be settled in court. If someone like Perot was to get involved the media would have a field day telling America he was a dictator. The Reform party is made up of a whole bunch of little people and its easy to disagree on issues. I don't agree with everything that Perot said and I don't agree with every thing Buchanan says ...But I do agree with most things. There are people here that for what ever reason have a problem with the Reform party. I'm sorry they feel that way. I just want to see things get fixed. The corruption is killing this wonderful country and my fellow Americans are divided into groups, NRA ,Pro Life, Pro Choice , Liberal , Conservative, Environmental,Race, ect. They keep a lot of Americans fighting with one another over issues that if we loose the country it wont matter if you were Liberal or conservative. I hope this is the year that the American people throw the bums out. I had hope in 1992 but the media said Perot cant win and the people believed it. I had hope in 1996 and the media said he cant win . They forgot to report that they would not sell Perot the TV air time he wanted to buy. The two main parties kept him out of the debates . It looks like they are going to try to keep Buchanan out of the debates . Hard to win if your not in the game. If the people in Washington wanted reform we would have it by now. Its not that hard every thing they need to know is in the Constitution of the United States. I don't want this to start another rash of politics here at the forum, I just wanted people to know why I feel so strongly about the subject.$hifty Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 1:43:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 34966) As to the old and revered man who was dusted off for one last volley Sir Shifty has well paraphrased Walter Cronkite, "Americans must have the courage to surrender their national sovereignty to a world government."Surely the truth of the matter is that Americans must have the courage to take back the national and individual sovereignty which they have already surrendered. The only time courage is involved in surrender is when the one who surrenders does so at his peril in order to save the life of others. To surrender our sovereignty and the sovereignty of our posterity requires not courage but cowardice.HBM Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 1:36:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 34965) Political Spectrums - Part 2 If I were to describe myself using Allen's purported political spectrum I would have to admit to being very close to Anarchy. I once read (I do not remember where) that the only appropriate social service necessary from the Federal Government would be some sort of disposal unit to remove the dead bodies off the streets when they have starved for lack means to earn enough to feed themselves. One disposal unit would be all that would be required because one would work at something in order to keep from starving. Well, you get the drift. The truly destitute would be taken care of by private charitable groups and individuals and the rest who seem to avoid work at all costs would find gainful employment.I do not hope for such a case as this though it would be nice. From a practical standpoint I only hope to exercise my unalienable rights as far as possible. I exercise my right as a citizen of this nation to NOT vote at the ballot box.Buchanan is not my man. Too much government intervention. Also I have a problem with his acceptance of the $12 Million. I do not blame him, I just hate subsidies and believe that those who subsidize control. It compromises our hopes for the restoration of our basic freedoms.I prefer to view myself as a Libertarian as I "object fundamentally to nearly any form of government intrusion". I get this phrase from William Greider. In his masterpiece, 'The Secrets of the Temple', he describes Milton Friedman, "As a libertarian conservative, Friedman objected fundamentally to nearly any form of government intrusion in the natural functionings of the private marketplace." Again because of this, my political philosophy Buchanan is not my man. A libertarian he is not!I am looking for the leader who will say, "Give me liberty or give me death". I look in vain.PS: Thomas Jefferson provided the best definition of libertarianism I have yet to come across, "Government that governs best governs least."PSS: According to Allen, concerning government our founding fathers had this in mind, "Primarily, government was to provide for the national defense and to establish a fair and equitable court system." Is it not ironic that these two seem to be the only items that the government no longer provides for its citizens? Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 1:28:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 34964) Political Spectrums - Part 1 According to a former, now deceased, free-lance journalist, Gary Allen, we have been taught that the political spectrum runs from left to right in the following fashion: Dictatorship Democracy Dictatorship Far Left Center Far Right Communism Fabian Socialism FascismInternational Socialism/Gradual Socialism/National SocialismBy accepting the above spectrum we are left with but three choices, three different philosophical approaches to the same goal of socialism as if socialism is the only ultimate possibility.Allen suggested that the true political spectrum runs from left to right as follows: Far Left Far Right Total Government Anarchy (No Government)Somewhere in between these two extremes (much closer to the right than the left) we find Constitutional Republic/ limited Government.Allen contends that since about 1911 we have been moving leftward across this spectrum towards total government with each new piece of socialist legislation. Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 0:58:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 34963) A special note to Sir Pete: Sir Pete:I respect your feelings about Mr. Buchanan and in the context, he being a public figure I mean, I did not mean it as a personal attack. I did mean publicly, philosophically and politically to express my opinion concerning his leanings. I am rather naïve in that I do not know or understand what you mean by my being a "member"the "PC crowd". I say emphatically that I am not a member of any organization having decided long ago that being a member of anything or organization puts me into a position of great discomfort. Some of my close acquaintances are amused by my naivety in several areas. For example I do not know how to easily recognize homosexuals or drug use and trafficking which can often go on right under my nose and I will not be aware of it. I hope that it is result of my lack of exposure rather than inability to discern truth from fiction. If you would be kind enough to explain what you mean by the "PC crowd", I would be in a position to know whether or not a rebuttal is in order. I promise not to take it personally whatever it may mean.PS: Thanks for the Free Republic Forum Link. I will print it and read it, every word. Maybe after reading I can change my position. No shame in admitting I am wrong should this case of myopia clear up.Very respectfullyHBM Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 0:51:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 34962) Digging out of the rubble as best I can Definition of forum: - A public meeting place for open discussion.Definition of discussion: - The consideration of a question in open, usually informal debate.Definition of fascism: - A political philosophy that exalts nation and or race, espouses a centralized autocratic government, economic and social regimentation, and generally intolerant of opposition.Public figure: - One who by the very weight of personal achievement is exposes to a great degree of scrutiny. As such a public figure whether by choice or otherwise is the beneficiary of much fame and or defamation. A public figure by nature is fare game.(my definition, could not find one in the dictionary)Based upon the following understandings my opinion is that Mr. Patrick Buchanan is a Fascist. Expressing my opinion in open forum becomes part of the informal discussion, nothing more and nothing less. It is not meant as a personal attack. It is not a statement of fact. It is only my opinion.I do not recant; however, I would like to express another opinion:Anyone who abides by the very generous rules of this forum has the right to also express his or her opinion to the contrary of mine. Otherwise if one desires that the views of another be suppressed then one should expect soon to see his or her own views suppressed. No doubt that Pat Buchanan is a very fine man. He might even be a Christian as Lady Leigh submits; however he is a public figure and fare game. He has gone to a lot of trouble to qualify for a $12 Million subsidy (strike one). He is quite an orator and very persuasive. With that amount of cash available and his considerable abilities he will have ample opportunity to let us know who is right about his political philosophy. Fascism unveils itself slowly but surely given enough time and wherewithal. I submit that whether or not Mr. Buchanan is, in fact, a fascist, we will not know for sure until and unless he steps into the position of great power. By then it will be too late to do much about it if he is and a great relief to me if he is not. My greater concern is that "in my opinion" good and wonderful people in this nation and on this forum a gradually ripening for a fascist leader to come along to control simply because they feel suppressed and disenfranchised by the current state of affairs. What happened in Germany and Italy can happen here. As bad as I hate and fear international socialism (communism) I fear national socialism even more.HBM Hill Billy Mitchell (8/15/2000; 0:35:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 34961) Test Test ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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