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Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/15/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Sierra Madre (11/15/00; 23:43:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41575)
News Flash!
In an unprecedented move, the Bank of Mexico - the Mexican Central Bank - has announced that one troy ounce .999 silver coins produced by the Mexican Mint, founded 1535, are on sale at $60 pesos a piece(about $6.35 U.S.)tax free, through some 2,500 bank branches of the banking system, in Mexico. The announcement was made via national Mexican T.V. chain T.V. Azteca, in a beautifully produced promotional "spot" of 60 secs. duration. The coins are legal tender in Mexico and have no face value.

Comment: I believe the coins will be snapped up in a matter of days, exhausting the stock.

Exsultate, jubilate!

Sierra

Bonedaddy (11/15/00; 23:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 41574)
Nothing wrong with the way we vote.
Elections have been run in the same basic way since the republic was new. There have been close votes before. Candidates used to show some class. If a candidate lost on a close vote, he tipped his hat to the opposition, wheeled his mount, and rode off into the sunset. What is different now?
Well, I think it is WE THE PEOPLE who have changed. Yes, that's right. It isn't Gore or Bush that's the problem. It isn't the time honored process, or the type of ballots used. The problem lies in that which, WE THE PEOPLE, are willing to accept. How can a population of irrational citizens conduct a rational election?

In America we, by our actions, have accepted the following:

This is a "new paradigm" and stocks need not pay dividends.

"There is no controlling legal authority."

The "truth" is what the better lawyer says it is.

"It takes a village to raise a child."

Inflation has been conquered.

Animals, somehow, have rights????

GOLD is not money.

Debt is money.

Plan now to retire rich.

If it feels good, you should do it.

Oral sex is not sex.

Is, is not,necessarily, is.

If the glove don't fit, you must aquit.

Murder is an acceptable means of dealing with difficulty.

Want is the same as need.

Need is virtue.

It is a priviledge to be a victim.


Is it any wonder that good people are turned off by government? How dare we expect just government, when we are so obviously screwed up?
Economies are based on standards of trust. When trust breaks down, economies fail. When economies fail, violence usually ensues. Avoidance of violence was why reasonable men banded together and formed laws and governments. Regardless of the latest opinion polls, OUR GOVERNMENT IS FAILING, our economy will fail also. Are you prepared for this eventuality? After the mayhem runs it's course, those who emerge from the ashes will understand why truth, honor, and morality were the only defences against violence.
Man's greatest challenge is to rise above his nature.
Thou mayest.
Bd












Journeyman (11/15/00; 23:04:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 41573)
Thanx for the encouragement and feedback @dragonfly

Hi dragonfly!

Thanx for the feedback. I'm pretty much self-motivated, but now and again I wonder if it's worth the effort. Posts like yours help me recharge! Thanx again!

Regards,
Journeyman

P.S. You're an effective ally dragonfly. Thanx!

P.P.S. I'm also happy to be in the company of beesting, ET, ORO, and a few others in this thread. Java-man, Galearis, etc. are worthy opponents. We're goin' places!


Peter Asher (11/15/00; 23:04:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 41572)
Could we have a few bars of the theme from "Dragnet" please
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/florida_votamatic_001115.html

Nov. 15 — Several days after
presidential votes were tallied in what
has become the hotbed of Florida's
post-election confusion, police in
Palm Beach County confiscated a
ballot-box mechanism from the car
of a well-known local Democrat.
The mechanism, called a "Votamatic,"
did not contain any ballots. It's a device
used on some types of ballot boxes to punch
votes through ballot cards, which are then
tallied by computers. ----->

Peter Asher (11/15/00; 22:51:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 41571)
Now we're getting a mandate!
Harris poll



Should Gore concede defeat?

Yes

64% => 110817 votes

No

33% => 57626 votes

Don't know

1% => 2382 votes

Current Vote Tally: 170825

Elwood (11/15/00; 22:29:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 41570)
ET (11/15/00; 22:13:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41569)

Hear! Hear! Excellent quote from a man who knew, and who never compromised his principles for political expediency.
Elwood

ET (11/15/00; 22:13:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 41569)
JavaMan - a little Mises
http://www.mises.org/humanaction/chap8sec1.asp

Hey JavaMan - I thought you might enjoy this short portion from Mises' Human Action. He examines the true basis for society. The portion that follows this concerns itself with anarchy, collectivism and universalism but unfortunately is not available for some reason online. However, for your info, Mises agrees with you for the most part that anarchism is impractical. He says, "The anarchists overlook the undeniable fact that some people are either too narrow-minded or too weak to adjust themselves spontaneously to the conditions of social life." "An anarchist society would be exposed to the mercy of every individual." This section of his book is most interesting in its insights into society and what makes it tick.

Quoted text follows:

Chapter VIII. Human Society
1. Human Cooperation

Society is concerted action, cooperation. Society is the outcome of conscious and purposeful
behavior.

This does not mean that individuals have concluded contracts by virtue of which they have founded
human society. The actions which have brought about social cooperation and daily bring it about
anew do not aim at anything else than cooperation and coadjuvancy with others for the attainment of
definite singular ends. The total complex of the mutual relations created by such concerted actions is
called society. It substitutes collaboration for the--at least conceivable--isolated life of individuals.
Society is division of labor and combin­ation of labor. In his capacity as an acting animal man
becomes a social animal.

Individual man is born into a socially organized environment. In this sense alone we may accept the
saying that society is­--logically or historically­--antecedent to the individual. In every other sense
this dictum is either empty or nonsensical. The individual lives and acts within society. But society is
nothing but the combination of individuals for cooperative effort. It exists nowhere else than in the
actions of individual men. It is a delusion to search for it outside the actions of individuals. To speak
of a society's autonomous and independent existence, of its life, its soul, and its actions is a
metaphor which can easily lead to crass errors.

The questions whether society or the individual is to be considered as the ultimate end, and whether
the interests of society should be subordinated to those of the individuals or the interests of the
individuals to those of society are fruitless. Action is always action of individual men. The social or
societal element is a certain orientation of the actions of individual men. The category end makes
sense only when applied to action. Theology and the metaphysics of history may discuss the ends of
society and the designs which God wants to realize with regard to society in the same way in which
they discuss the purpose of all other parts of the created universe. For science, [p. 144] which is
inseparable from reason, a tool manifestly unfit for the treatment of such problems, it would be
hopeless to embark upon speculations concerning these matters.

Within the frame of social cooperation there can emerge between members of society feelings of
sympathy and friendship and a sense of belonging together. These feelings are the source of man's
most delightful and most sublime experiences. They are the most precious adornment of life; they lift
the animal species man to the heights of a really human existence. However, they are not, as some
have asserted, the agents that have brought about social relationships. They are fruits of social
cooperation, they thrive only within its frame; they did not precede the establishment of social
relations and are not the seed from which they spring.

The fundamental facts that brought about cooperation, society, and civilization and transformed the
animal man into a human being are the facts that work performed under the division of labor is more
productive than isolated work and that man's reason is capable of recognizing this truth. But for
these facts men would have forever remained deadly foes of one another, irreconcilable rivals in
their endeavors to secure a portion of the scarce supply of means of sustenance provided by nature.
Each man would have been forced to view all other men as his enemies; his craving for the
satisfaction of his own appetites would have brought him into an implacable conflict with all his
neighbors. No sympathy could possibly develop under such a state of affairs.

Some sociologists have asserted that the original and elementary subjective fact in society is a
"consciousness of kind." [1] Others maintain that there would be no social systems if there were no
"sense of community or of belonging together." [2]One may agree, provided that these somewhat
vague and ambiguous terms are correctly interpreted. We may call consciousness of kind, sense of
community, or sense of belonging together the acknowledgment of the fact that all other human
beings are potential collaborators in the struggle for survival because they are capable of recognizing
the mutual benefits of cooperation, while the animals lack this faculty. However, we must not forget
that the primary facts that bring about such consciousness or such a sense are the two mentioned
above. In a hypothetical world in which the division of labor would not increase productivity, there
would not be any society. There would not be any sentiments of benevolence and good will. [p.
145]

Principle of the division of labor is one of the great basic principles of cosmic becoming and
evolutionary change. The biologists were right in borrowing the concept of the division of labor from
social philosophy and in adapting it to their field of investigation. There is division of labor between
the various parts of any living organism. There are, furthermore, organic entities composed of
collaborating animal individuals; it is customary to call metaphorically such aggregations of the ants
and bees "animal societies." But one must never forget that the characteristic feature of human
society is purposeful cooperation; society is an outcome of human action, i.e., of a conscious aiming
at the attainment of ends. No such element is present, as far as we can ascertain, in the processes
which have resulted in the emergence of the structure-function systems of plant and animal bodies
and in the operation of the societies of ants, bees, and hornets. Human society is an intellectual and
spiritual phenomenon. It is the outcome of a purposeful utilization of a universal law determining
cosmic becoming, viz., the higher productivity of the division of labor. As with every instance of
action, the recognition of the laws of nature is put into the service of man's efforts to improve his
conditions.

Journeyman (11/15/00; 22:03:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41568)
Addendum to Galearis LP environmentalism

I assumed in the post that everything was owned by an entity that had a financial interest in maintaining it. This was specifically addressed in a post or link posted yesterday.

Sounds radical --- until you realize that governments, with NO real financial interest in maintaining things, claim everything not otherwise owned -- including the oceans and the moon!

Regards,
Journeyman


Journeyman (11/15/00; 21:56:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41567)
Libertarian environmental "policy" @Galearis
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/

Hi Galearis,

I'd planned (and started) an involved answer to your observation that you weren't aware of any Libertarian environmental policy.

The short answer is that libertarians have a very well developed environmental policy, though much of it isn't explicit --- because it doesn't need to be.

Basically a large part of libertarian environmental policy is subsumed under property rights. If someone damages your property, you have a right to restitution.

It doesn't matter if it's a small amount of damage or not, you have a right to be recompensed. However, in practical terms, the lawsuits necessary, especially against large well funded corporations, are expensive and often the damage is spread over many "properties." There's a small town nearby that had an Allied Chemical sulphuric acid plant close by. The fumes, apparently included some sulphur trioxide, which if I remember my chemistry correctly, turns to acid when mixed with water. At any rate, when it landed on the homes and rain or dew hit, the result was peeling paint all over town.

It wasn't economically feasible for each home owner to sue individually. A perfectly reasonable answer was a class action damage suit, but about twenty years ago, the US power establishment, to protect their tax collectors (like Allied Chemical, for example) passed legislation to make such things more difficult.

At any rate, such lawsuits, to recover damages under the property rights position of the libertarian philosophy is extremely effective in preventing the problem in the first place. Economic research (and common sense) shows that one of the main things businesses hate is unpredictible expenses, both in timing and amount. That's what the prospect of unrestricted class-action damage suits gives them. It was a law suit, for example, not Nader, that caused Ford to move the Pinto gas tank.

This doesn't solve all environmental problems, but if widely applied, would probably take care of 90% or better, either by preventing them, or providing restitution.

It's worth noting that the business-government complex conspired to prevent this logical, moral, effective way to protect the environment.

Not a complete answer, but all I have time for now. If this isn't enough to convince you, you might want to check out the LP platform on Domestic Ills (2/3rds of the way down the page pointed to in the link in header).

Any objections, comments, etc., post them & I'll try to respond if I have anything to add -- and the time to add it.

Regards,
Journeyman


Midas Mulligan (11/15/00; 21:52:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41566)
Response to tedw and general comments
Tedw, the value, or strength, of the dollar is based upon the amount of goods and services backing it up, or economic strength/output. Futures and options dollars based on projected outlook for future economic production. It's value is thus subjective and arbitrary instead of objective or fixed which it would be if backed up by the supply of gold, ie. a gold standard which we should be on but are not.
To Atlas Shrugged/Ayn Rand followers. The mind thinks. Mediocrity/statists resist the mind with force. This creates a collectivist bubble society. As the mind thinks against the resistance of mediocrity (Atlas) it creates static energy which acts as air pressure in the bubble against the mind. So the mind is killing the minds of the public as it thinks because thinking builds up air pressure/static resistance against thought. I, Zeus, use my mind, the john galt motor or the mind that refuses to think against the resistance of mediocrity(Cronus), to convert the static energy created by the mind to energy for the minds on strike with me. This lowers the pressure in the bubble and helps the independents/Giants compete well against the collectivists/Promethians as the collectivists dominate when the static energy levels are high, ie. when the air in the bubble is tight. Static energy is what they use to perform their show against perfection and for mediocrity. Examples in tennis... Patrick Rafter, Pat Cash are Atlases. Pete Sampras, John Mcenroe are Promethians. Magnus Norman and Jimmy Connors are Giants. In golf Nicklaus and David Duval are Atlases. Bruce Fleisher and Tiger Woods are Promethians. Ernie Els and Larry Nelson are Giants. I want name Cronuses in sports as there arent that many since they seek power over men to fill their lack of personal desires and values, and thus dominate modern soft/corrupt business and government. Oil and natural gas are both static forms of energy so my motor reduces the supply of both and helps raise the price of oil. This will raise prices and pressure the Fed to raise rates which will hurt the paper assets and dollar and help gold.
Also, just got back from driving a billboard truck in Winston Salem, High Point, Greensboro, and Raleigh North Carolina for a week followed by 2 weeks in Boston. I earned about 1250 dollars and am going to buy some gold here and some gold stock at my Charles Schwab account. (Canyon Resources) I'm leading the world by example.

Mr Gresham (11/15/00; 21:23:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 41565)
Dragonfly -- Anarcho-syndicalism?
Thanks for the Mondragon link. I'd meant to read more someday.

As I ramp up my economics learning through seminars like ours here, I wonder how many experiments there have been to join the best features of capitalism and its alternatives.

I always end up with the disappointed conclusion that, like Aldous Huxley's "Island", it will be invaded and swallowed up by some bigger neighboring force. But that doesn't stop my curiosity to know more about it and incorporate it into my "possible world" view.

Any more recommended readings?

Thanks.


JavaMan (11/15/00; 21:15:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 41564)
Hello dragonfly,
You said: "Let's go to the original meaning - "without a ruler".

Then consider that numbers 1, 2, & 3 do not necessarily follow and could well be merely elite "opinion" as to the potential consequences from their perspective. In other words a projection of fear of loss of position."

JavaMan: I see the original meaning - "without a ruler" as synonymous with at least 1 and see 2 & 3 as a logical conclusion in the long run and, therefore, they do follow. I think one would be hard pressed to somehow prove the definition as opinion of any elite.

And: "Another angle. If we were to apply constricting logic to the meaning of 'republicanism', then could we not say that any crimes committed in its name are necessarily the boundary conditions of its existence?

For that matter, is Christianity bounded and defined by its 500 year dalliance with the Inquisition?"

JavaMan: To associate Christianity with the Inquisition and to substitute Christianity for the church of Rome is to err and only one who does not know the difference would do so. Somehow, I think you are smarter than that.

And: "Philosophies are best viewed from the positive results that occasionally occur from their correct application, rather than from the converse, yes?"

JavaMan: I believe philosophies are best viewed in light of the positive and negative results from their application for that is how one can best determine how one wants to live their life.

And: "Just as the use of Gold has a noble and sordid past we must recall that it is not the fault of Gold but of the user."

JavaMan: Agreed, furthermore, not only is it not the fault of Gold, it is not the "past" of Gold...it is the "past" of the "user".

Thanks for the late night exercise.

dragonfly (11/15/00; 20:22:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41563)
JavaMan - re: ANARCHY


Greetings Sir JavaMan.

Let's go to the original meaning - "without a ruler".

Then consider that numbers 1, 2, & 3 do not necessarily follow and could well be merely elite "opinion" as to the potential consequences from their perspective. In other words a projection of fear of loss of position.

Another angle. If we were to apply constricting logic to the meaning of 'republicanism', then could we not say that any crimes committed in its name are necessarily the boundary conditions of its existence?

For that matter, is Christianity bounded and defined by its 500 year dalliance with the Inquisition?

Philosophies are best viewed from the positive results that occasionally occur from their correct application, rather than from the converse, yes?

Just as the use of Gold has a noble and sordid past we must recall that it is not the fault of Gold but of the user.

Enjoy your thoughts.

Regards,
dragonfly

dragonfly (11/15/00; 19:47:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 41562)
Journeyman - re: ANARCHY
http://www.ping.be/jvwit/Mondragon.html


Sir Journeyman I regard your posts as among the best here. They have a sense of perspective that cut through much ideological obfuscation. Perhaps your previous experience with cards? has something to do with your disciplined perception.

The discussion of the nature of anarchy caught my attention and I commend you for your sharing of a wider view. If others could shake the agitprop image and understand the intrinsically cooperative and voluntarist nature of the anarchist position they would find much indeed.

"Anarchist Women of Spain" is one book that comes to mind regarding the events of the 30's.

Somehow connected I suspect is the Mondragon system of enterprise in the Basque region, which solves many of the deficiencies of capitalism and communism. See link.

I wonder how the cooperative movement in the united states could benefit from securing a position in Gold before the financial/economic hurricane hits. Seems like a good fit.

I suppose the elites are into cooperatives too. Smile.

Thanks again for all your great posts. I know it must take alot of time and attentionl.

Regards
dragonfly

JavaMan (11/15/00; 19:45:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 41561)
Journeyman, beesting, ET, All...
http://srd.yahoo.com/srst/2196795/anarchy/16/72/*http://www.sirius.com/~faxlabel/burning.html

Let's start (again) with a standard definition of anarchy so we have some context. I say again because I see that we had a similar conversation back in June. Anyway, on with the dialog!

NOUN : Inflected forms: pl. -chies
1. Absence of any form of political authority. 2. Political disorder and confusion. 3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

ETYMOLOGY: New Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhi <<...>> , from anarkhos, without a ruler, an-, without + arkhos, ruler.


Journeyman, you said: "Another point: "Anarchy" is another term that has been spun because it weakens the elite powers excuse to control us because we're basically either "evil" or perhaps just "irresponsible."..." http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/le960907.html

JavaMan: Shame on you Journeyman. Yes, you can say the original meaning has been "spun", but to do so renders the definition almost useless, furthermore such a statement is "cacca-doodle". In response to your link, Martin Van Creveld's The Rise and Decline of the State would indicate otherwise. He shows that for as far as we can see into history, there has always been singular authority in a society and where it didn't exist, those people were either absorbed or wiped out by other societies. Van Creveld starts his account with Tribes (without rulers) also called Segmented societies but these are simply small extended families where he says "there were no superiors except for men, elders, and parents and no inferiors except for women, youngsters and offspring." and "Before their colonization of their lands by the white man lead to their destruction... ". Then he moves to Tribes with rulers (chiefdoms), City-states, and Empires. All with authorities or governments. Someone correct me here if I have misunderstood Van Creveld's book.

Journeyman: "In fact, since I suspect you are unable to come up with any specific examples of depredations caused by anarchists and certainly none that even approaches those depredations touched upon above, perpetrated largely by the US government (supposedly one of the better governments), why is it you dislike the idea of anarchy?"

JavaMan: Sometime earlier this year, I posted the following:

"Righteous government is the one great want of the whole world. The obtaining of this is the mighty spring of all political movements for Reform; and of all national conspiracies, and revolutions. It is this that gives Anarchists the motive for their crimes."

This started a small firestorm about how peaceful anarchists are. I don't consider myself an historian or expert on the subject but it only took a few minutes to search the internet and I found a list of many, some who had been executed for their deeds of terrorism, and, if I'm not mistaken, you requested some of the links and I gave them to you. My memory is a little cloudy about such a detail, it may not have been you. See the link above for one "anarchist" we probably don't have to worry about, but I digress.

Personally, this is what I think of government...from another part of the same post: "The whole subject is one of sovereignty... "The kingdoms of the world" are represented as wild beasts, knowing no master and having no owner. This is God's view of all earthly governments. Government in the world, committed, for the present, to man, has never yet been exercised for God. Not only is His sovereignty not recognized, but even His suzerainty is rejected.
...
The very laws which God gave on Sinai, and the Divine Ritual of the Tabernacle and the Temple did not keep Israel from Religious Apostasy and political ruin. It ought therefore to be perfectly clear that there is no hope for the world in human laws or religions."

I agree that "the government that governs least governs best" but it is not the nature of government to do so. Also, (1. Absence of any form of political authority. 2. Political disorder and confusion. 3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.) is not a solution. Again, "The kingdoms of the world are represented as wild beasts, knowing no master and having no owner." Do you really believe for one minute that they are going to leave you alone in peace? I don't. Hence my philosophy of minimal damage...


On a brighter note, I called CPM this evening and Michael Kosares answered the phone. It was my first conversation with him and one I thoroughly enjoyed. After the business portion of the call I mentioned that I didn't want to keep him long and I proceeded to ask his opinion on just one of many issues of the day but one topic lead to another, and then another, and so on...what a great guy. It was time well spent.



Chris Powell (11/15/00; 19:34:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41560)
An open letter to Newmont: How are you helping?
http://www.egroups.com/message/gata/577
It would be nice if other gold shareholders
sent letters like this one.


To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

gata-subscribe@eGroups.com


Tate (11/15/00; 19:32:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 41559)
EURO
Observing interest rate spread and Euro behavior I tend to think there is Euro CARRY TRADE that is being played. While US experiences presidential debacle there is hardly any dent in Euro exchange rate to the dollar. Strange.

Euro leaders issuing intervention threats against who? Probably not against an average Investor.

It will be interesting to see what happens with US interest rate. I expect if it is left alone or marginally raised Euro will keep going down and game is on.

The only way world economy can get lower crude oil price is by lowering demand. Time is right for definite world economy slowdown. If it is not done with monetary tools it will be checked by type of commodities that can not be manipulated. Oil is major one.
Greenspan has a key to achieve it. If Republicans get in this will be done sooner than later.



tedw (11/15/00; 19:29:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41558)
The Dollar
http://www.usagold.com

I am going to reveal my ignorance in front of God and everyone right here.

When one buys futures in the dollar or options, what is the standard by which the strength of the dollar is measured?

All response appreciated.

beesting (11/15/00; 18:47:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 41557)
Hi Sir Pandagold.....enjoy your posts!
http://quote.yahoo.com/m3?u
As someone who has ancestral roots in the northern part of the British Isles(Highlands) but as yet never had or took the time to visit( I hope to visit sometime in summer 2001) I have a few questions for you,if you have time to answer.

1. I have noticed at the above URL the British Pound has lost about .24 U.S. cents in value since the start of the Bank of England Gold sales last year.
First question ,have you noticed if the prices of imported things have risen in the last year about that same amount?(very roughly 15%)
Second question, does the man on the street realize the selling of Gold by the BOE may be dropping the value of the Pound in relation to the U.S. dollar?
Third and last question, I have heard the Scottish use their own Pound, although it is not listed at the above URL, do you see the Scottish Pound(now that Scotland has voted in their own Government) taking on a value separate from the British Pound, also(2 part question) there is much talk of the British Pound, at some point in the future, joining the ranks of the Euro zone?
Any comments on these issues would be appriciated.
Thanks in Advance.....beesting.

auspec (11/15/00; 18:14:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41556)
OregonBeerForce
Welcome OBF- How many vats do you have in your organization?
Great handle. It will be interesting to see the relationships develop between the fractured but oil rich country of Venezuela and the Central America developing countries. Many of these countries are hopefully following in the footsteps of Costa Rica and much progress will be made near term. The countries of this entire hemisphere stand to become more and more interdependent.
You are right, it looks as though Venez is bypassing the US$ but have no idea how significant this is in terms of their overall volume.
On a note that has only to do w my personal economics, Venez imports a 37 yr old Ron {rum} that is on par w single malts or brandies. Ron Anejo Anniversario Pampero. It is unusual and quite a treat, maybe I should arrange some sort of pact with them also.

Got fermented goods and yellow {metal} fever??

Pandagold (11/15/00; 17:58:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 41555)
Apologies to Elevator Man
Oh dear, oh dear, Elevator Man. Never intended to upset – not even a little bit. I forget that history, as taught in America rarely strays outside its own borders. One of the good points of the fact we once had a large empire is that, at school, we were forced (my hand still smarts from the whacks) to learn all about the red bits on the map -and most of the other colours too, (If you don't quite understand that about the ‘red bits’, find some ‘Limey’ wandering around and he'll explain However, we do suffer from history as taught by Hollywood, I also have a feeling that those script writers write many American history textbooks as well.

I just have to put one thing straight, otherwise God knows how many other people will be wandering around believing that we have a queen sitting on a big chair, screaming "Off with their heads" to those that displease her.

We keep our Royal Family, mainly because they are a good tourist attraction. Americans, and others expect to see her at Buckingham Palace when they drop in for their tour of Camelot UK. I mean, would Disneyworld get rid of Mickey Mouse, or the Magic Kingdom Castle? – at least, our castles are real. She more or less earns her keep, and so long as she does, I suppose we'll put up with her.

But, alas, for many years, she (the Queen, poor girl) has not put anyone's head on a block, nor has she interfered in politics. There was a sweet little princess a short while ago who did dip her little toes into the political pool, she wanted to clear up some of the pollution that she felt was giving it a nasty smell. Pity, before she could fulfil her dream, she met with an unfortunate accident. (People who bug the establishment often do – even pretty princesses, you see, are not immune) She should have known better, silly girl. And now the world has one fairy story that didn't end ‘happily ever after’.

We do have a political system; that, like America, masquerades as democracy. We do not tell our kids, however, that anyone can be prime minister (our equivalent to a president) and neglect to add - that is providing you have a few million dollars or can get someone to back you with that amount. (Actually, that is one thing, though, that is very much cheaper in the UK than the US – becoming top dog) But, as stated, we do have an election process (like America) that fools people into believing that they DO have a say in the way the country is run. You see, we are told that if those you elect don't do what they said they would do, you just throw ‘em out the next time round. Then you elect another set of jokers who are more or less the same with a few variations (otherwise it wouldn't look right). And so you go on.

By keep changing them, it allows them to blame all the problems on the last administration when things go off beam. But, at least, we feel we have done something, and that gives us a little comfort.

Unfortunately, as I discussed in one of my earlier contributions, when some idiot decides that we should put on a uniform and go out and kill someone whom we don't know, and has done us no harm, or put up our taxes because we need to spend more on ingenious items of technology that can smash the hell out of anyone who stands up to our bullying tactics, even though the vast majority of the people don't agree, somehow, the minority over rides the majority. Well, that is a curious twist of ‘democracy’, I guess, even in the good old USofA.

So, you see, just like you, we are a, so-called, democracy. Maybe real democracy is just an illusive, pipe dream for us all. But, until a better form comes along, we are, like you, my friend, in it for the long haul, and have to take the bad, with the good.


Cavan Man (11/15/00; 16:11:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 41554)
Techs: AMAT
Q1 sales and earnings will be lower than forecast. That should sting the markets a bit. (Bad news for PPT)

OregonBeerForce (11/15/00; 15:32:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 41553)
More Oil Deals
Hello everybody. This is my first post on the forum, but I try to read as many as time permits. Thanks for all the good thoughts and perspectives. While not specifically gold related, I thought people might find this interesting in light of the complex happenings in the oil market. While not as good as pricing in Euros, this looks like a possible barter deal where Venezuala can sell oil to the US at ever increasing dollar prices while trading for goods and services locally at a stable price. But maybe it's just an attempt to improve Chavez's populist sphere of influence in S.A.

From Nov World Oil: "Venezuela offers neighbors low-priced oil":

"A 'separate and bilateral deal,' called the Energy Pact of Caracas, was signed last month by the heads of states of the same countries involved in the San Jose Pact. The new deal allows the 10 Caribbean and Central American countries to receive an additional 80,000 bopd at a low cost from Venezuela, by year-end, said President Hugo Chávez.

Countries that are a part of the Energy Pact - Haiti, Costa Rica, Panama, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Barbados, Honduras, Guatemala and Belize - will be able to buy crude from Venezuela in the price range of $20 - $30 a bbl at a 2% interest rate. After a two-year grace period, the countries will have 15 years to repay the debt.

Chávez assured the countries that goods and services were acceptable alternate payment methods."



TheStranger (11/15/00; 15:19:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 41552)
OOPS!
Thanks, Cavan Man.

Journeyman - Thank you, too. Once again you display your penchant for independant thinking. It is a streak I admire in you. In fact, I like to think I share it.

The meaning behind my post may have been misconstrued. Actually, I quite agree with your and Beesting's sentiments on this subject. My dog story was meant not to poke fun at Beesting's ideal but to laugh at the impossible nature of ideals themselves.

That doesn't stop me from having ideals of my own, of course. Like Thomas Jefferson, I believe, to a point, that that government is best which governs least. For this reason, I guess, I heartily recommend VOYAGER's post #41522 (written earlier today) to anyone who missed it. In it, he uses personal experience to express these thoughts better than I probably could.

Best Regards!

Cavan Man (11/15/00; 13:09:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 41551)
Mr. Gresham and Stranger
Excellent posts both! Thank you.

beesting (11/15/00; 12:57:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 41550)
The Search for Knowledge about Gold, and the Search for Golden Knowledge....A little off Subject.
Hi Sir Stranger...Good to see you posting again.
I stumbled across a Unitarian Association many years ago, this is some of the Golden knowledge I remember:
1. No two people on planet earth think exactly alike at all times....I have to allow, and adjust for that.
2. Humans are members of the animal species here on planet earth.....Still fighting with themselves, and the planet they live on for survival??
2.(A) Science says the earth is about 3 billion years old, humans are only one of the latest inhabitants, and for over 60,000 years humans have survived living in "THE TRIBAL SYSTEM"!...(My apologies to Moses)
3. Many of the founders of the USA were Unitarians which IMHO helped to frame the U.S. Constitution as a just and fair contract for all to plainly see and help inforce....John Adams, John Q. Adams,,,etc. Thomas Jefferson was said to lean to Unitarian philosophy....Whatever that means?
4. The USA is a TESTING ground for the rest of the humans on earth....Why??? Because every Race, Religion, "and none of the above" are thrown together in one Country as an experiment to see if humans can indeed live together harmoniously, without killing each other off.
4.(A) The USA as a Country survived quite well(with some bloodshed){ Statistic: More Americans have been killed or maimed in automobiles than "ALL" the war casualties put together) for about 150 years using the fairly stable Copper,Silver, and Gold monetary system, which compared to today inflates or deflates wealth at a much "LESS" volatile pace.
5. The Unitarians are the""High Grading and Low Grading"" part of the above mixture, including "every" human life form.Although I witnessed many many low key disagreements I never saw one act of violence among Unitarian adults, in 20 years.
6. Since conscription was outlawed in the U.S. an American has a right to "CHOOSE" if he/she wants to join or "NOT" join any organization,,,,yes even labor unions.

7. The question is," could humans live and survive,in a state of "Harmonious Anarchy"??? My answer...I don't know,,,however,if my worldly neighbors were producers of products my family needed and we alone decided to use as a medium of exchange Gold money, or the equivalent, for exchanges(goods or labor) IMHO this would be a much more honest and fair system than what we have in the world today, no matter where or what country you happened to be born in. How would my neighbors and myself protect our possessions(Gold,etc.)...With guns of course......Ask yourself this, How do some of those lame-brained police get respect from the people they have to deal with every day?....by wearing Guns.....!
Gold...Get you Some....beesting.


Sierra Madre (11/15/00; 12:10:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 41549)
Galearis...about Education
I can't remember who said it, but I think it is quite true:
"An educated fool is worse than an ignorant fool".
Someday I'll get to write a book - for perhaps three readers - on the benefits of hereditary monarchy and selective education. What the hell! If the world is about to collapse in a financial shambles and all decent people are at risk of being hung from lampposts, why not come out and be heretical, why not say what has to be said:
Democracy stinks!
"Education" as understood today, is nothing but technical training and produces arrant knaves.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
The power of hereditary monarchs was as nothing, compared to the tyranny of "popularly elected" governments of today.
Man's arrogance has increased by leaps and bounds since - what? - the Reformation? Illustrated by useless voyages to the Moon - arrogant demonstrations of human power, empty and vain.
We decry the "Dark Ages" as periods of mental darkness; now we know, now we are powerful, now the people govern themselves, Kings are simply a bad dream. Faith is banished, Reason prevails!
Oh Yeah?
Faith is alive and well, but it is faith in man's reason, something remarkably flexible and subject to the influence of Passion. No longer Faith in Almighty God, and confessed ignorance of the Universe, but Faith transferred to faith in human knowledge and human decisions.
A mighty fragile vessel! Shades of Holocausts to come!
"The circle of our knowledge
is a very restricted area;
except for a limited number
of strictly practical purposes
WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING". T.S. Eliot "Cocktail Party".
We have only traded rulers, and I think we may have made a bad bargain.

P.S. Is gold to become as obsolete as Kings? It fits the trend.
Sierrita.


Journeyman (11/15/00; 11:55:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41548)
Dogs that don't eat vs. dogs that eat everybody in sight @The Stranger, ALL

Hi Stranger!

Whoa, is that ever a cliche!!

But seriously, where do you get your negative ideas and interpretations about so-called anarchy? Specifically, now, not here-say. Could it be that we all get these ideas from the same sorts of sources that attempt to relegate gold to the status of "barbarous relic" - - - and told Columbus that the world was flat?

Historically, of course, anarchists, that is TRUE anarchists, (not the few wild eyed bomb-throwing radicals we normally are taught to think of) were quite peaceful folks and rarely had serious disagreements and never waged a war to speak of.

Anarchists never shot tomahawk missiles at Sudanese pharmaceutical plants, nor did they kill 100,000 reluctant (for the most part) Iraqi soldiers (according to Schwartzkopf) nor another 100,000 civilians as a result of collateral damage (according to humanitarian groups) nor did the embargo the civilian population of Iraq. Nor did they kill 7,000 Serb civilians while bombing that country's infrastructure back to the stone age.

And that's just a few of the actions involving the US government and just in the last decade.

Mostly anarchists, just like you and me, mostly want to be left alone, and they don't cause problems unless they're tread upon by busy-bodies.

In fact, since I suspect you are unable to come up with any specific examples of depredations caused by anarchists and certainly none that even approaches those depredations touched upon above, perpetrated largely by the US government (supposedly one of the better governments), why is it you dislike the idea of anarchy?

Now perhaps anarchy is an "ideal" and perpaps some proponents are violent every once in awhile. The few classical anarchists who WERE violent were very principled. One famous story is of an anarchist who indeed did throw a bomb - - into the carriage of an elitist nobleman, and seeing an innocent person was also riding in the carriage, went in and retrieved his bomb. Exiting the carriage with it he was killed when it exploded.

Compare this with, say, SWAT teams here in the US who regularly enter the wrong house, breaking down the door in the middle of the night (remember that picture of the abduction of Elian Gonzales by I.N.S. agents) and often kill one of the completely innocent folks living there "by mistake." They killed a grandfather in Compton, CA just recently because the savings he had withdrawn from a bank set off "money laundering" alarm bells. There is rarely an apology, and never reparations under such conditions.

It seems to me perhaps the choice is a dog that doesn't eat vs. a dog that eats most everything and everybody in sight.

If you snigger at the "ideal" of anarchy, so what's the "ideal" of government? Why is such an ideal, if you can come up with one, better than the ideal of "harmonious anarchy" suggested by beesting? Or more "realistic?"

Regards,
Journeyman


TheStranger (11/15/00; 11:12:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 41547)
Beesting
Beesting - Your quote about the best system being a harmonious anarchy reminded me of another ideal I once heard about. To wit: the ideal pet would be one who never eats. Over the years, some fellow had acquired numerous dogs and attempted to train each one to live without food. The trouble is, every time he got close to success, the darn things up and died on him.

Still, one never stops trying.

TheStranger (11/15/00; 11:08:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 41546)
Gold Bull Chronology


In the "Back to Basics" category, here is a chronology for the next bull market in Gold. Needless to say, most of it is already in place.

1. Money creation exceeds the growth rate of the U.S. economy.
2. Prices respond by rising(energy in particular).
3. The same Fed which is spurring the economy with monetary growth simultaneously attempts to reverse rising prices with higher interest rates.
4. The combination of higher interest rates and a tapped out consumer cause fears of recession.
5. Fears of recession cause a decline in the stock market.
6. Falling stocks cause foreigners to disinvest from the U.S.
7. Disinvestment causes the dollar to decline against other currencies and, by extension, gold.
8. The declining dollar raises the cost of all imports for U.S. residents (more inflation). Simultaneously, departing foreign investments force up the of U.S. cost of capital (further threatening recession).
9. The Fed either bites the bullet by clamping down on money growth, thus guaranteeing a recession, or it attempts to create a soft landing by letting inflation run.

Which course will the Fed take? Who knows. But U.S. money supply growth, while not yet up to 1999 standards, has been accelerating again in recent months. The official year-to-date PPI is already running above 4% in the U.S. Unofficially, it is at least 5%. That is up considerably from two years ago when I first started posting here. At that time, it was below zero!

Look for 6-7% by the end of next year.










Mr Gresham (11/15/00; 10:56:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41545)
WA (Washington Agreement): Thoughts while driving
Starting to get a little bit bored with the election fiasco (Which should be your contrary indicator that things are about to heat up again in some way)

Just thought I'd say something about gold, for variety's sake...

Market action as indicator to the gold market:

We have FOA (May he return soon, well and refreshed, from his family matters) telling us about the structure, vulnerabilities and players' outlooks in the gold markets.

But none of these people come here and tell us what they are thinking or doing, so we will not have our "ultimate spike" after any advance notification from them.

But the action after the WA over a year ago confirms for me that big players are watching the ECB's gold stance and ready to move immediately to cover their positions.

(Why they are in them at such a low reward/risk ratio is still the mystery for me, but that is a secondary matter. Implicit government guarantees of short-term profit are the only likely explanation I can muster.)

It was not the tiny little "goldbugs" rushing down to their local coin shops that Monday morning who made the 252 to 339 spike. Nor was it the brides of India hurrying their wedding planning purchases of gold jewelry, nor probably jewelers either.

The ECB is the key bellweather being watched, and (somehow) parts of the mining community are a secondary one. (The mini-spike earlier this year.)

Otherwise, there is a standing sell limit order from some big entity (Occam's razor: simplest explanation?) keeping a heavy lid on and keeping prices in a statistically low volatility range for month upon month. Until some key event blows the lid off and that seller runs to its protector for reimbursement.

There. Something about gold, in a week of learning more about political manipulations than we ever wanted to know. Why should we be surprised to finally learn how Money has been manipulated in every way possible?



mickau (11/15/00; 10:43:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 41544)
(No Subject)
today a message is being sent to the clinton/gore camp.A second vote by an irate public in the form of cash withdrawl from checking and savings accounts as a protest to the legalist cozenage being acted out by Al Gore.Hope is that some of these funds will find there way to a safe haven for troubled times....Go Gold Mikeau

YGM (11/15/00; 10:29:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41543)
GO NAVY!.........
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/20001115_xex_navy_flying_.shtml
US Navy Flying home 3000 lost ballots....Said most are from Florida....YGM

Galearis (11/15/00; 10:24:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 41542)
@elevator guy and Journeyman
Education, libertarianism discussions
I apologize for my inattentions of yesterday etc sir Journeyman and sir elevator guy. I have been too much of late in and out with toils galore.

Sir journeyman: I have just now placed your words into my word processor for processing and comment. I will machinate and digest them, and promise a response either by email (that bandwidth conservatism - smile- thingy), or do it more publicly.

Sir elevator guy (I love that -grin).
My interest in life is in specific topics of academia - geology, minerology, botany/geobotany, ecology, and education. I am an academic (thereby making my profit of satisfaction in the joys of active and unending learning - not so much in more material relms of money, preserving ones wealth (although I do worry obout dementia, on occasion - grin). All of this tends to focus ones attention on the values of an educated public and how one achieves the best results. I do feel that it is folly to degrade public education either in quality of content (curriculum) or with religious/political polution - which qualifies as indoctrination, not education. I would even consider "taking shop" in the high schools as not education. The latter is training and has, at best, a quasi legitamacy in our school system. IMHO, of course. But I digress.

My worry:
In the FWIW catagory:
In 1992 the Coalition for Literacy began an add campaign directed at the reading public - an add in the backs of paperback novels. Their statement: "Today 75 million adults, one American in 3 (30+ %) can't read adequately. By the year 2000, U.S. News & World Report, envisions an America with a literacy rate of 25%."

I don't know if the US has "reached" this level, but the add campaigns would signify a modern and more than moderate worry on this point. As many may remember, recently I have been on a small rant defending public education in Ontario, Canada. In 1992, the illiteracy rate in Canada was reportedly 20%. (In Ontario, this is destined to climb very quickly compared to the rest of the country.) I submit that the level playing field in education is being adjusted to the more common level between our two countries. I would also submit that a 20% illiteracy + or - a few points is NORMAL in a developed country with both high standards and adequate funding - for a plethora of cultural and sociological reasons in the student population. I have never heard an argument for "improving" education that started with a baseline of excellence. Hence this will continue to be a political football.

Why my interest in education: It is the healthy foundation for all economic activity and political stability.

wolavka (11/15/00; 10:09:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 41541)
grains
gains in grains

aunuggets (11/15/00; 10:05:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 41540)
Typical Liberal Democratic Thought Process:
.

A human fetus is not a human being, and has "no right to live"......

Yet a "pregnant chad" should be counted as a vote ???

Gandalf the White (11/15/00; 10:02:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 41539)
RAT's #40600
The WIZ also seconds the Sir Auspec nomination of post 40600 to the CLHE-HoF ! See Below and the LINK page that follows !!
<;-)
++++++++++++
Randy (@ The Tower) (11/04/00; 17:39:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 40600)
Auspec, dear Sir. From (usagold.com msg#: 40591) I see that you have waged a good and noble campaign.
http://www.usagold.com/hall/CLHE/clhesubmit.html
"Dear Most Worthy & Mighty CyberCastle,
As you possibly remember there was a recent ruckus involving some of your ultra loyal & left brained subjects & their heartfelt desire for a HoF section for Creative Dreamers {mandated under code 777 of the American Disabilities Act}. You will surely recall our requests as peaceful, orderly, and totally logical.We, once again, seek permission to approach the Throne with our humble ideas. [...]
We all understand that Town Crier has more important functions than dealing with CLHE-HoF, but could you {pretty} please give us some indication as to how much longer it will take for Townie to finish[?...] Town Crier!!! We want a real peace treaty, looking for an OFFICIAL proclamation in recognition of our beloved CLHE-HoF. One simple {literally} acronym or word {uncle comes to the left side of my mind} from your Royal Keyboard will suffice. What say the blue bloods??"
In your service,
Auspec
-------------------
Having looked into this matter amid other ponderous dealings, I have taken this accommodating action to stem the rising tide of pitchforks and garden rakes mounting against Centennial's castle walls. I trust that the link above shall be found satisfactory in all regards for meeting your demands, and with it, this matter can come to a peaceful and FINAL resolution.

I invite you and your fellow left-brained conspirators to log in and enjoy the well-earned fruits of your diligence and my acquiescence. Via this link, you have finally gotten what you deserved.

Enjoy!
=============
SOOOOO, what does one get via this LINK ? See below!!
<;-)
=============
CLHE-HOF Posting Error(?)

Having problems? It would seem that your clever and artistic left-dominated brain is unable to figure out how to post text into a simple message box. This is your problem, not mine. But don't be too hard on yourself--it would appear that this outcome was inevitable. Methinks you have been had (by the best, no less,) but I won't tell anybody if you won't.

Now run along like good little creative boys and girls, and pledge to support our efforts here by choosing to do business with Centennial Precious Metals each and every time you want to add the tangible wealth of metal to your savings. After all, the only business entity contributing to the monthly electricity, programming, and web server bills for this site is Centennial. What other gold dealer has done so much for you for so little in return? Please show your support and appreciation accordingly.

(Now, what the hell does CLHE stand for, anyway???)
==============
END
<;-(



wolavka (11/15/00; 09:29:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41538)
dollar index
wedged into a double trend line apex. Something has gotta give

SHIFTY (11/15/00; 08:54:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 41537)
auspec
I OFFICIALLY second your request for post 40600 by Randy @ The Tower .

$hifty

JavaMan (11/15/00; 08:51:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 41536)
Hello beesting, welcome to the fray...
Harmoniously Anarchistic...is like other oxymorons...government workers, jumbo shrimp, etc. Don't have time to talk now but will follow up this evening.

P.S. I was married in a Unitarian Universalist Church although it didn't/doesn't reflect my theological thinking. Don't remember much of the specifics but I came away from conversations with the minister with the distinct impression that they were just a little too liberal for my thinking.


beesting (11/15/00; 08:17:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 41535)
For ET, J-Man #1 & J-Man#2 and anyone else.
A quote I wrote down about 10 years ago from a Unitarian Universalist Minister:

""The Ideal Society is Harmonusly Anarchistic.""

The quote has hung for about 10 years on my living room wall!......beesting.

elevator guy (11/15/00; 07:43:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41534)
@Pandagold
Very amusing post!!

Our ancestry goes back as far as a castle on the Antonine wall, or Hadrians' wall. Before that, its just conjecture. There are not enough written records to trace it back any further. And there is always the Irish in the "woodpile", so who knows!

We Muhr-cans actually prefer the sloppy system of democracy that we have to a monarchy. For all its faults, it still affords the common man with the right of self-determination, and the benefits of a God-given right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

We would not like to trade our system for the security of knowing that some benevolent monarch is watching over us, doing whats best for us chickens.

There is no appeal to a life without challenge, and no joy of victory without the battle of righteousness.

I am fully aware that your post was merely a lighthearted, "tongue in cheek" look at American politics, and I take no offense. It actually was very amusing, and perfectly truthful. But it also got me to say what I think, and I wish that my reply was equally amusing, but it is hard to inject humor into what we find so dear to the heart. I mean, there are times whn the laughing stops, and hearts are sober. Like the Battle for Britain? Some issues bring back the strains of a distant drumbeat, that echos in the hearts of men. And so it is, when we remember the reasons for our Constitution, and the what God and our founding fathers did for us in the great USA.

RossL (11/15/00; 06:41:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 41533)
Peter Asher # 41512

"What would the procedure be if the Vice President elect were incapicitated beyond recovery by illness or accident??"

The president picks a new VP and congress approves him. It is funny, isn't it, that until this century, the constitution didn't have detailed rules on the sucession of presidential power.


Goldfly (11/15/00; 06:09:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 41532)
Steve - Possibly this.......
http://216.46.231.211/international.htm

SHOULD THE US BE ACCORDED A HIGHER RISK PREMIUM?


SteveH (11/15/00; 05:47:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 41531)
repost
www.kitco.com
Who can dig up what this repost refers to?

Date: Wed Nov 15 2000 00:42
surfer (Murphy is most likely right .) ID#144296:
We have a HUGE financial scandal on our hands !

Read Marshal Auerbachs article from Prudent Bear. Very Believable.


auspec (11/15/00; 05:05:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 41530)
CLHE-HoF/ Trap Door/Back Door/FINAL Resolution/SOON!
A hearty hale to all,
In the spirit of encouragement for those yet to exhibit meaningful access to their CLH, I hereby OFFICIALLY nominate post # 40600 by Randy @ The Tower as the 1st entry into the CLHE-HoF section of "The Lighter Side Of Gold". Well done RAT, please spend even more time incorporating frivolity and creativity into this Forum.
We will also need to figure out under which alias to label your entry-----Town Crier, Randy (@ The Tower}, Randy @ The Toilet, RAT, or Renege Randy. Or you can "morph" back and forth if you please.
Need multiple seconds please from the faithful!!! Thanks to all for this fine site.
auspecfully yours

auspec (11/15/00; 04:50:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 41529)
Renege @ The Tower/ CLHE-HoF/ WARRRRRRRR!!!!/RRREEPPOST!


auspec (11/14/00; 17:58:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 41491)
Renege @ The Tower/ CLHE-HoF/ WARRRRRRR!!!!!
Renege Randy @ the Toilet,
I have been alerted as to your simple snare and dastardly deed, and remain undefiled by your fraudulent scheme. CLHE-HoFAG is now formally reactivated as a result of your betrayal, thanks to the advance warnings of our sentries and our escape from harm's way.
We will make a couple of brief points to help your failing memory:
1- "As it is, we do have a section within the Hall of Fame called "The Lighter Side" that could very easily be morphed into whatever is deemed appropriate." Do you, by any chance,RR@ the T, know who's words those are????? Does the word "is" in that sentence from YOU give you wiggle room??We will not have this type of insolence from the hired help. May we remind you that OUR purchases from CPM pays your room and board in the Inn? The insurrectionists are always right!

2-For all who care to see the trap that was missprung on our beloved endeavor you may visit http:www.usagold.com/hall/CLHE/clheresponse.html. This is the very site that RR prematurely and selffully proclaims himself to be the "best". This rascal is as delusional as Al G {algae}, and possibly as power hungry.

3-To help RR out after our weeks of "negotiating", it would be nice if he knew WHO we are {maybe it's not so surprising he doesn't}. It's C {Cerebral, that means brain Randy}, L {Left, the hand you don't throw a rock with RR}, H {Hemisphere, half of the normal brain}, E {Enhanced, that means working at full speed}. CLHE!!! Now we were kind enough to drop the A {Advocacy, that means to try to obtain a goal} and the G {Group, we-uns}, until recently re-challenged. So it is again CLHE-HoFAG, so be it!!!

We may be simple blokes, but we are united blokes and we will rejoin the battle and not sleep until we have the "V". Our careers, families, avocations, and miscellaneous affairs are now on hold to fully concentrate on the CLHE-HoFAG objective. Be fully warned. There are less than 20 of us now, but we could soon have another membership drive! Please respond in print at this Forum to The Wizard and me, and our faithful. A left brained duel it shall be. What say ye fellow utilizers of this key and important part of the brain??
auspecfully yours,
auspec


All in fun of course, right?



Pandagold (11/15/00; 04:30:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 41528)
A litttle light hearted understanding
In times like these, and in a page such as this, things can get a little heavy at times, so perhaps there is occasion for a little light hearted comment to lighten the load.
As a Brit, I offer my American cousins ( and any of our other 'cousins'( Black, white, yellow or brown) scattered around the world, who wonder, at times, about the sanity of the American nation, the following thoughts to ponder.

First, one should always keep in mind that it is the nation that gave the world Disneyland, and Disney world, and, over the years, so many people have visited the two sites that they forget where fantasy ends, and consequently there has been overspill into the general mainstream of American Life.
- this is very evident in Washington, and in an area of New York around Wall Street.

An American on our (British) TV said - They can recount or not recount, challenge or not challenge, but eventually we are going to have one of them for president - and that is what really scares me.

Another crack: In the US, some voted for a man dead from the neck up, some voted for a man dead from the neck down, but in one state they voted for a dead man - well, at least, the voters there were shrewd enough to know he was the one least likely to foul up in office.

I still feel Gore is going to make it. When they get those overseas votes in, they are going to get a surprise. Many, as you know, will be from Israel and if they can't fiddle them in transit - nobody can. You'll probably find there are a greater number of votes coming in than the population of the whole of Israel. Most gentiles think that the 'promised land’ described in the 'good book' is Israel. But every non-gentile knows it is the US of A.- ask any New Yorker or Floridian.

What I can't understand is this. If they can discover by a hand count in one state that a machine count is flawed, and that a hand count is therefore more acceptable, then what about all the other states? Hoorah, let's have another national circus. As many Americans have said - "We've never had so much excitement since the O J Simpson trial".

Ah! America, God bless her – The Spanish discovered it, The English colonised it, The Irish built it, and Greenspan runs it.

Enough said. I'll sign off with my thought for today 'Don't go around smiling too much, people will wonder what you have been up to'.


YGM (11/15/2000; 2:45:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 41527)
Deathwatch..........(Stocks to Short?)
http://www.downside.com/deathwatch.html
Couln't sleep got up and found this posted from an egroup friend.
I thought many here might enjoy if they haven't visited this site...back to zzzzz

ThaiGold (11/15/2000; 2:40:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 41526)
East is East and West is West
Attn: Perplexed (11/14/00; 10:38:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 41460)
Perplexed:
We both speak of the same State of Washington. I just tend
to embellish the facts a bit, for our night shift lurkers.
I agree with your perplexion regarding the paradox of the
Seattle/Microsoft region oddly voting for Gore. King and
Pierce counties long ago were corrupted by the DemMachine.
Most of the Eastern Washington counties haven't reached
such depths yet. At least, here in Lincoln county, things
seem pretty honorable. What about your county.?.
ThaiGold@OperaMail.Com


ThaiGold (11/15/2000; 2:25:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 41525)
USS Cole Story: better link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000124036011016&rtmo=VD338wVK&atmo=99999999&pg=/et/00/11/15/wcole15.html
Use this direct link to that USS Cole story.
The previous link will rollover
and not show the story, later.


ThaiGold (11/15/2000; 2:12:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 41524)
Clinton/Military Outrage.!.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=000124036011016&rtmo=99999bL9&atmo=99999999&pg=/ixworld.html
Disgusting news item (USS Cole) at London Daily Telegraph:
[snip]
Bombed US warship was defended by sailors with unloaded guns
THE sailors guarding the American destroyer Cole when it was attacked by
suicide bombers in Aden last month had instructions not to fire on suspicious
craft and were carrying unloaded guns on the orders of their captain.
[unsnip]


Topaz (11/15/2000; 1:12:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 41523)
Tree of Life.
Thanks for the summary Sir and I concur with your observations. My one reservation is that these Derivative positions seem to be very "transferable" within the "group of Bankers" as we witnessed last year when the bulk of same ended up with Chase/Morgan/Deutche(sp) and I'm thinking a similar transfer will take place this time around.
Of note Today, apart from the politico/judicial muddle those Yanks are engaging in,<wink> - was the blatant actions of that most renound of Market meddlers, The Hong Kong administration who, in concert with the PPT and god knows who else, managed to create for themselves a 3 1/2% index upswing which, as intended, reverberated around the World and forestalled the Global market decline....for now!

Voyager (11/15/2000; 1:08:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 41522)
IT REALLY IS COMING TRUE
I recently finished reading Atlas Shrugged. I read the book because of the forum here. I had no idea of the story or preconceptions before starting. I can't think of reading anything else that has so profoundly struck me in such a misanthropic way. In comparing the events of the book to modern day reality, the parallels are far beyond coincidence. A few examples are:
1. The dumbing down of America through the school system and in the book the idea that thinking is only for the government and the ordinary citizen is incapable of it.
2. That another's needs are always greater than yours regardless of what those needs be.
3. That it is the responsibility of the producers to support and ever increasing amount of takers
i.e. creating more and more people dependant on the government for taking care of their life.

God Help Us – It Is Really Happening

On the subject of the election, I really don't give a damn anymore who wins. The amount of hatred and division that is being caused in the USA is moving to the boiling point. In listening to talk radio, the country is split in two alienated groups. In my own family there are brothers and sisters ready to go to blows. One of my sister's lives in New York, is a lesbian, teacher union member, and a card-carrying member PETA. She voted for hillary and algore and bill twice. The rage coming out of her against those of us on the other side, is greater that mine towards them.

The world is rightly laughing at the disgrace this country has become.





SHIFTY (11/15/2000; 0:39:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 41521)
auspec
I'm back from operation flea market.

I got the fleas.

The finest CLHE-FLEAS hard money can buy!

They stand ready to attack.




:)
$hifty




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