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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 10/15/2000 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) justamereBear (10/15/00; 23:36:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 39116) Midas Mulligan 39078 and Peter Asher WHOA. I now see that my post may have had the capacity for offense, and I apologise for that.I often communicate using some form of example. In this case I had seen your explaination of the Midas Mulligan handle near a post of Peter Asher, and had indeed speculated about your handles. As well I have been wondering why I simply did not use my real name, But at the time it seemed like the thing that was done in forum, Have a handle. In retrospect, it would have been much better to have let a throw away line like my example, paticularly using specific names, remain thrown away, and unsaid.This was simply a comment that you seemed different, and no negative connotations were intended. Turnaround (10/15/00; 22:24:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 39115) Asia melting up now http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u A sea of black ink in Asia today (Oct 16th)-or at least at the moment- melting up pretty high!UP!DOWN!UP! UP!DOWN! DOWN!I like Mr. Holtzman's "Galloping Gertie" Tacoma bridge analogy, not just for stocks (over the past few months) but also for the increasing amplitude and frequency of currency collapses (over the past 15 years). nugget0 (10/15/00; 22:02:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 39114) SHIFTY.. Struth mate..I'd be happy to part with mine for that kind of money....g SHIFTY (10/15/00; 21:53:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 39113) nugget0 Yes! nugget0 (10/15/00; 21:46:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 39112) SHIFTY.. that nugget..is that in US$? SHIFTY (10/15/00; 21:23:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 39111) Its good to be back home! I missed a lot of the action from last week. I hope I can catch up on all the reading. I did see a 10 oz nugget for sale at the gold show, priced at $15,000.00$hifty SHIFTY (10/15/00; 21:04:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 39110) Periodic Ponzi Update Nasdaq 3,316.77 + Dow 10,192.18 = 13,508.95 divide by 2 = 6754.47 PonziDown 407.40 from last week.$hifty Journeyman (10/15/00; 21:02:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 39109) WARNING: Delusion alert!! REMEMBER gold folks --- the price of gold you see at Kitco, on Yahoo!, in the Wall Street Journal, etc. IS NOT the price of PHYSICAL gold --- it is the price of a PROMISE TO DELIVER gold. This is VERY different than gold --- many of these promises are completely bogus.Therefore we won't see the TRUE price of physical gold posted at Kitco, etc. until paper promises and physical gold separate and alternative price discovery evolves.I REPEAT: WE WILL NOT SEE THE TRUE PRICE OF PHYSICAL GOLD UNTIL THE CURRENT PRICING STRUCTURE, WHICH INCLUDES BOGUS PROMISES TO DELIVER, BREAKS DOWN.Further, the powers that be can't afford to let that happen because it would be a red inflation flag that couldn't be ignored, so - - - -Relax, sit back and watch the show. It'll be over soon enough. But don't get sucked in to believing the price you're watching is something it isn't.SIGN ON THE MIRROR: It's the long-run, stupid!Regards,JourneymanP.S. I know most of you-all already know, just thought a little reminder might be in order as we progress on this adventure. aunuggets (10/15/00; 20:51:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 39108) Midas Mulligan.....(??!!) You state "Paper gold gives you leverage".True, but only at the great risk involved in giving someone else "control" of the assets involved. Leverage, no matter what the ratio, will matter not one iota in a default situation in which you cannot retrieve your gold or claim your currency.And "It (paper gold) is also safe because it's price is tied directly to the price of physical gold and THE ONLY PURPOSE OF GOLD OR GOLD PAPER IS TO ACCUMULATE DOLLARS ANYWAY......"It seems either you or the rest of us are missing something here. Have you ever considered that the REAL purpose of (physical) gold may actually be the retention of the highest degree of freedom "from" the dollar rather than the pursuit of it ? It's simply a continual struggle between "honest money" and "manipulated currency", between true wealth and debt promises, and if it should come to that point in the future, between hard assets and worthless confetti. Peter Asher (10/15/00; 20:26:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 39107) Sneak preview Woman Robs Bank with Axe After Stock CrashUpdated 11:19 AM ET October 13, 2000 STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A Swedish mother of five, distraught after her shares crashed, robbed a bank in neighboring Finland by threatening staff with an axe, she admitted in court in Finland. The 41-year-old woman said she panicked after her Swedish information technology stocks fell heavily in May, not knowing how she would provide for her children's future, the daily Expressen reported. She initially succeeded in obtaining 20,000 Finnish markka ($2,911) from a cashier but was overpowered outside by a man who had seen her enter the bank wearing a mask and carrying an axe. The paper did not identify either the town or the defendant, who is appealing against a one-year prison sentence to the high court in Rovaniemi, Finland. Disclaimer and Privacy Statement SteveH (10/15/00; 20:05:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 39106) Aristotle Truly inspiring. You have stated a correct course of action. The path is clear: inform our leaders that gold derivatives and paper gold has gone too far, perhaps beyond the edge. It is time to bring back honest money. For those into protecting gold:a repost:New Anti-Gun Strategy Doomed to Fail Dr. Michael S. Brown Oct. 10, 2000The always fascinating cultural war over the right to beararms has taken another interesting turn. Leaders of theanti-gun lobby know that they are now in a fragile stalemateand are seeking to tilt the balance in their favor. Their newstrategy is dictated by the nature of the two opposingforces.Anti-gun groups are small, relatively few in number, andbased exclusively in major cities. They are funded by largedonations from liberal-left foundations and wealthyindividuals who seek to change society to fit their desiredmodel.Gun rights groups have evolved on a different pattern. Thereare hundreds of them, in all types and sizes, scatteredthroughout the country. The majority of their money comesfrom dues paid by members who just want to keep the rightsthey have. These members, as many as four million in the caseof the NRA, are the source of their political power.Lacking a large membership, the anti-gun lobby has used massadvertising and a blindly sympathetic media to spread theirmessage. This has worked well in the past, thanks to the welldocumented media bias and diabolically clever marketingtechniques. But it exposes them to charges that they areelitist organizations, financed by millionaires who want todisarm the unwashed masses.To alleviate this unseemly situation and shift the powerbalance in their favor, the anti-gun lobby has spawned a newcrop of surrogates and a new strategy that seeks to imitatethe grassroots success of the NRA. The optimistically namedMillion Mom March and First Monday 2000, for example, areattempting to recruit new members at the local level bystaging marches and rallies.This shift in strategy is doomed to failure. It also revealshow poorly the leaders of the anti-gun groups understandtheir opponents.After enduring decades of mean-spirited demonization, gunowners across America are extremely angry and frustrated.They are tired of writing letters and donating money to slowthe nanny state juggernaut. When vengeful gun owners hear ofan anti-gun event in their area, the are overjoyed that theycan finally meet the enemy face to face.In dozens of cities, anti-gun rallies have been met by largenumbers of counter-demonstrators singing and waving signswith hard hitting gun rights slogans. Well-dressed andwell-spoken gun owners have slipped quietly into public roundtable discussions on gun control and dominated thediscussion. In several cases the anti-gun people have beenoutnumbered at their own event.At a recent candlelight vigil sponsored by the Million Momsin Vancouver, Washington, fifty pro-rights demonstrators,armed with their famous signs, appeared to contest the issue.Considering that only sixty people attended the vigil, thelocal newspapers and television stations could not ignore thedemonstrators. Instead of the usual glowing account of thesaintly Moms, the resulting stories described the conflictbetween the two groups, including the thought provokingslogans, "Guns protect moms and kids." and "Gun haters ignorethe real causes of crime."Depending on the effectiveness of the gun rightsdemonstrators and the reaction of the local media, anti-gunrallies can actually be counterproductive. The only thingmedia people like better than a good story about gun violenceis a story about two opposing forces clashing in the streets.Journalists love to denigrate the sinister gun lobby, butit's an entirely different matter when their own neighborsare demonstrating in the streets to save the SecondAmendment.Dozens of small guerrilla-like groups have spontaneouslyformed to organize these efforts. They are not controlled bythe NRA. In fact, many participants are angry with the NRAfor being soft in its defense of the Constitution. They areentirely self-sustaining and do not divert any resources fromnational organizations.These local gun rights activists benefit from a deliciousirony. Although gun owners are amazingly law abiding andgenerally very polite, they can be frightening to people whohave absorbed the propaganda about evil guns and dangerousgun owners. These are precisely the people who are needed topopulate the anti-gun rallies. In this case the demonizationcampaign has backfired. Loyal gun prohibitionists are lesswilling to take to the streets when they believe that theywill be met by the very demons they've been warned about.The anti-gun lobby has foolishly tried to attack thestrongest part of the pro-gun community. Instead of levelingthe playing field with the NRA, this ill-conceived strategywill consume resources while it reveals how little supportanti-gun groups have at the grassroots level. *****Dr. Michael S. Brown is an optometrist and member of Doctorsfor Sensible Gun Laws. He may be reached at:rkba2000@home.comYours In Liberty,Robert"May the road rise to meet you, may the wind be always at your back, the sun shine warm upon your face, the rain fall soft upon your fields, and until we meet again, may God hold you in the hollow of his hand."*** sidenote. You know the battle of gold and the battle for gun rights is about the same thing: honor in government. The constitution is clear as to the meaning of money and the meaning of the right to keep and bear arms. Let us not drift too far from either.ps. thanks to all. REVELATION (10/15/00; 19:57:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 39105) MIDAS MILLIGAN Sir, if we have a extreme crisis your PAPER GOLDwill be unavailable. Lets not confuse the two. Midas Mulligan (10/15/00; 19:46:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 39104) Response to Revelation about physical vs paper gold Paper gold gives you leverage. It's also safe because it's price is tied directly to the price of physical gold and the only purpose of gold or gold paper is to accumulate dollars anyway, and no matter how weak the dollar gets it'll be the medium of exchange used to acquire goods and services. Plus when system fails it'll liberate the mind from economic controls thus causing production to boom and the value of the dollar to soar offsetting it's severe erosion caused by the meltdown of the financial system. Midas Mulligan (10/15/00; 19:34:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 39103) John Galt speaks I'm using my "motor", my mind, to cause the price of oil to rise by converting it to energy for the men of the mind on strike.(passive minded thinkers invested in gold) As price of oil rises this will pressure Fed to raise rates due to inflation fears, which will cause inflation in prices and thus gold. Since I'm making the price of oil and gold rise I'm requesting royalites for my motor be sent to #418 175 15th st Atlanta, GA. 30309 c/o Brooks Dorn. Thanks P.s Explanation of how motor works: I make my brain/mind totally passive and limp which allows me to drain static energy. Emotion and oil are both forms of static energy. 714 (10/15/00; 19:31:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 39102) justamerebear re: family It wasn't my parents in Germany. It was my cousins. I had relatives that died fighting on BOTH sides of WWII. My great Uncle Matthais was mayor of a village of about 1500 or so in the Eiffel (near the Ardennes) from 1933-1945 (yes, he was a Nazi) and he lost two sons on the Eastern Front: one KIA, one captured never to return (like 70% of German prisoners taken by the Russians). Having said that, my father was wounded in Italy fighting the Germans and my uncle killed in the same country by the Luftwaffe. Anyway, after the war, our family here in the States sent weekly care packages to the German relatives consisting of flour, sugar, tobacco, and sometimes chocolate, sometimes dollars, for FIVE years. It was very, very tough in die Deutschland after the war (bad karma). There was no money, little food, and bare essentials. I visited once in the 70's and got a hero's welcome, only by default of my birth. This was all before my time. FWIW. REVELATION (10/15/00; 19:29:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 39101) PAPER GOLD Vs PHYSICAL GOLD PAPER GOLD could fold in the case of extreme crisis.Money on options or futures can be denied payment.Mining companies could collapse due to placingand removing hedges or poor management.Stock exchanges could close their doors dueto terrorist attacks.PHYSICAL GOLD is the safest and most securemeans of having gold ownership. It can be tradedor sold in the market immediately and has no boundries.It is indestructable and will never change color or deteriorate. Physical gold can be held privately andsecretly with no trace. But you could be robbed orburglarized, so it must be kept in a safe place. Otherwisephysical gold is the ultimate personal insurance policyagainest economic breakdown. ji (10/15/00; 19:24:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 39100) justamereBear Re: tile May mean to bind to keep what is said or done in strict secrecy. In Freemasonry, to guard against the entrance of the uninitiated by placing the tiler at the closed door; as, to tile a lodge; to tile a meeting. Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary of the English Language Unabridged 1971 Hope this may help. megatron (10/15/00; 19:20:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 39099) Java Man I actually read that article, but the Marketwatch summation said "Greenspan ordered Cb's and Treasury' to buy in order to 'save peoples life savings'. Obviously the Marketwatch article was grossly wrong. Or was it , Aristotle? Maybe Mr Magoo had a aneurism and admitted to 'something' megatron (10/15/00; 19:13:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 39098) Chris Powell Like the gentleman said in NYPost today, anyone who works in a muslim medicine factory should avoid work this week.This is, sadly, true and you and I know why. It is indicative of the level to which it is 'KNOWN' the Klintleradministration will stoop for feel-good political gain. Talking to anyone in Washington about 'public access' to economic information is going to be fruitless. The level to which the press condones and avoids issues concerning the abhorent behavior of them, leads me to the conclusion that any headway you make will only A. get a 'That's nice' response or B. 'I'm going to look into this' and once they do 'look into this' it will terrify them, politically, and will instantly be removed from their memory. I believe 100% in what you are doing, but asking NAZI-2000 to tell-all about what will inevitably be the economic mega-ton blast of all times is wishful thinking. Your ace in the hole is going to come out of nowhere, somebody is going to snap, just wait em' out. You will have the last laugh. JavaMan (10/15/00; 19:08:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 39097) http://nypostonline.com/business/13246.htm megatron, I saw a John Crudele article in the NYPOST but it was just his opinion. Check the link above.Nickel62, you said "I never thought of anyone preparing the text before entering it on the posting page and my misspellings prove that I never have."Like I said...anal. Aristotle (10/15/2000; 18:48:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 39096) Hi Chris Powell I try not to make a habit (or nuisance of myself) meddling in the affairs of GATA, but seeing your latest post here has inspired me to bring a past post to your attention, and to offer some additional words for your consideration.This is where everything hinges. You said-----"in GATA's dealings with Congress, the Federal Reserve, and the Treasury Department, we have maintained that the economic policy of the United States is PUBLIC policy and thus should BE public in every respect, so that everyone can know about it equally and so that inside knowledge of that policy cannot be exploited for private gain -- as we believe inside knowledge of it has been and still is being exploited for private gain."It is my contention that the "inside knowledge" of your targeted parties is really nothing more than an "thorough understanding" of the foundations of modern banking, and bullion banking in particular. Before I repost my prior attempt to guide the thoughts and peceptions of others, this brief question will go a long way to set the stage, if such a person is willing to give it some thought.Please consider--What specifically is to blame for the value of the dollar in your wallet losing its value over time? Does it take "inside knowledge" and a manipulative Trust to recognize the inflationary effects of banking, and to trade accordingly?------------Aristotle (09/26/00; 10:45:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 37534)Sharing a practical lesson for dealing with "conspiracies, cabals, and manipulation"A hammer, a screwdriver, a saw, and lumber may all be manipulated, yet not in a manner that is "against the law." What is to be done as the lines blur?True conspirators and cabals earn that title, get your attention, and attract your anger only when they have been operating successfully--and they reach that success only if they can and do avoid identification. What is to be done?When it has been proven impossible to catch and identify the thief who steals nightly through your window to burglarize the wealth of your home, you may choose instead to simply let him be, and yet lose no more sleep or wealth if you follow the easy path of wisdom. Dismantle the tools of his "trade."Send home the constable. Call instead for the caprpenter--to remove the trellis from beneath your window, or else make fast the shutters. In this way you need not catch a thief, nor catch the next and the next, that each new season may bring.The parallel is obvious. Where it is impossible to bring charges against sophisticated entities for swinging hammers or climbing ladders, so too is it impossible and irresponsible to seek to levy charges against corporate entities who use the available and lawful tools of their trade known as derivatives and bullion banking. Perhaps the use of these tools are in such as manner so as to blur the lines into a harmful outcome resembling that of conspirators and cabals. The energy is surely misspent to seek for their head on a platter.When the harmful outcome from the use of these tools is clear for all to see while the "perpetrator" remains safely and forever in the shadows, when you seek the sympathetic ear of your congressman, you will appear far more rational and inspire change if you demonstrate the adverese impact being caused by the mere existance and use of Gold derivatives and bullion banking in general. If you enter their office spouting notions of conspiracies and seeking a redress of greivances through a general roundup of banking CEOs, you will surely be dismissed, albeit politiely. Instead, become a lobbyist (in a manner of speaking) for the abolition of Gold derivaties (Gold futures, etc.) and bullion banking.As congress shows its willingness to seek to eliminate the effects of the sometimes harmful "manipulation" of assault rifles (done by a small element of criminals) by ridding the land of the guns instead of the perpetrators, then (regardless of your stand on assault rifles), let this be your guidepost in working with your elected officials toward an investment/freemarket climate that is once again safe, clear, and part of mainstream thought for all individuals to store their wealth in Gold. Push for a "recall" on Gold derivaties and bullion banking, because you'll never be able to lock up all of those willing to manipulate these currently lawful tools to their own advantage. Instead, follow this guide to do your own manipulation. Manipulate our democratic system to your OWN advantage in order to protect the market value of your Gold.The lobby to abolish Gold derivatives is surely the point Archimedes would seek today on which to place his lever to move the world.Mechanical advantage and Gold. Get you some--but only at such a time as you grow weary of cheap Gold and no longer want THAT particular advantage. ---Aristotle---------------------Your position is a noble one----"In seeking a free and transparent market in gold, GATA works on behalf of gold's monetary function and thus joins a noble cause of importance to justice around the whole world."Would the battle not be easier to focus on the education of the public and politicians, getting them to recognize that we do expect and can tolerate governmental influences upon the currencies that national governments put upon their currencies, and that our tradeoff for that concession is that there is no good reason for Gold to be subjected to the same forces that act upon national currencies?This is in no way meant to be critical of your past actions or gameplan. It's simply the sharing of thoughts from one Gold "insider" to another.Gold. Get you some. ---Aristotle Cavan Man (10/15/2000; 18:33:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 39095) The Kingdom There's another announcement by SA that they will increase production further still. That's a good laugh on a Sunday eve....ENTJ(CM) megatron (10/15/2000; 18:32:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 39094) NYPOST article,Fri. Did anyone catch the article Fiday in the NYPost where Greenspan purportedly ordered buying of S+P futures and blue chips on Fri. AM ? It was on Marketwatch this morningin an article about Taiwan propping up their market and gone this afternoon before I could grip it. Chris Powell (10/15/2000; 18:06:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 39093) GATA does defend gold's monetary function Steve H remarked here in the last day or two that GATA seems to deal with gold as a commodity rather than as money itself. Since GATA has concentrated lately on market manipulation, Steve has a fair observation, so maybe it's worth clarifying GATA's position. GATA has ALWAYS has recognized gold's crucial monetary function. In fact, defending gold's monetary function is part of our charter. GATA recognizes the power and right of the U.S. government and all governments to trade in gold and to issue money. When GATA stresses an anti-trust approach to the gold situation and identifies private parties acting against gold, it is because such an approach seems most promising for ordinary gold investors and believers in gold's purposes. That is, as Americans we all have certain rights under anti-trust law, but other than exposing what the government is doing surreptitiously with gold (as GATA indeed has tried to do), we may not have much leverage under the law against the government's power to issue money and trade in gold. But we do have a moral claim, and a freedom-of-information claim. That is, in GATA's dealings with Congress, the Federal Reserve, and the Treasury Department, we have maintained that the economic policy of the United States is PUBLIC policy and thus should BE public in every respect, so that everyone can know about it equally and so that inside knowledge of that policy cannot be exploited for private gain -- as we believe inside knowledge of it has been and still is being exploited for private gain. Steve characterized GATA's anti-trust complaint well; it IS essentially a commodity approach to gold. But if gold wasn't so much more than a commodity -- if it wasn't money in itself, the universal measure of all currencies, and a guarantor of individual liberty throughout the world -- GATA would be just another special interest. In seeking a free and transparent market in gold, GATA works on behalf of gold's monetary function and thus joins a noble cause of importance to justice around the whole world. CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc. AUCHICK (10/15/2000; 18:00:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 39092) Take delivery and hunker down? For years now, there has been speculation about the coming break out in the pog. Among gold-bugs, there seems to be a unanimous chorus of "it's just a matter of time". Tomorrow maybe? Next week? Next spring? Weariness is setting in for this gold-bug and the constant readiness/waiting/watching is leading to despair! Is it time to take delivery and fogeddaboutit? nickel62 (10/15/2000; 17:31:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 39091) Sorry I forgot to define the terms! P stands for Perceivers and J stands for Judgers. nickel62 (10/15/2000; 17:29:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39090) beesting FYI www.personality.com The above link gives several online tests for free and the Kiersey Tempermant Sorter is a good one to figure our the four basic letters of your type. A very good description of what that personality would be like is then given in detail at the www.personalitypage.com site where all 16 types are described in detail and shows their suggested mates and careers that many of that particular personality tend to prefer. It also has a slightly better test of sixty questions but charges $3 per person to evaluate you online while the other site is free for a similar test. The last two letters are either a J or a P depending on the way you prefer to have your world organized. J s tend to be rather liking of order and routine and P s tend to like to leave all their options open as much as possible and tend to be somewhat messy as a group. The P s are the adventurers and explorers who drive cars full of all kinds of stuff not necessarily in very organized fashion. The judgers are the neat organized anal types who want things to be rather predictable. The other type poles have been described quite well. megatron (10/15/2000; 17:13:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 39089) Washington Agreement/Gresham Why do 'analyst's say there is no evidence of collusion when the POG drops $70 but cannot bring themselves to admit the obvious that the WA certainly WAS collusion and the price rose $70? Markets work both ways. Golden Truth (10/15/2000; 17:07:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 39088) To wolavka and auspec I don't have much time to chat, but i did want to say THANKYOU to both of you for answering my question. What a crazy time to be alive?? G.T Midas Mulligan (10/15/2000; 17:06:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 39087) John Galt reveal secret to his motor The John Galt motor in Atlas Shrugged converted static energy to kinetic energy. Static energy is emotion. Most people are emotional and not cognitive. They simply conform and desire to keep the status quo, the state (Titan Pometheus), in power. Cognitive people are the creators and thus supporters of the emotional world. (Titan-Atlas) The absolute minds are not willing to support or compromise with emotion, thus they refuse to think and live to conquer the Titans.(Olympians) and make time and money absolute/gold versus only relative/paper (Cronus). Emotional people live as parasites off of cognitive people by draining the mind which can create it's own energy. They live off the dollar draining it of it's value by consuming the goods and services it represents without producing anything, but the mind creates the value of the dollar or those goods and services. I live to drain emotion using my mind which is my motor. I do this by making my mind totally passive. Thus when emotionalists try and drain my mind I reverse the drain and drain them instead. Then they must replace what I take from them by draining more from the minds of Atlas. That's how I, Zeus, conquer both Titans. Oil is the material energy that Titan's depend on. It's static energy so my mind drains it to Olympians/strikers thereby raising it's price and making prices rise. The goal is to make prices rise so the Fed will raise rates and thus cause the markets to fall and gold to rise. When that happens Cronus (mediocre power lusters/statists) and the Titans will be conquered and the Olympians will rule. JavaMan (10/15/2000; 16:32:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 39086) beesting, oops... My source of information just left to take our daughter to a sleep over. I'll try to get that answer to the number of questions later. beesting (10/15/2000; 16:32:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 39085) Many Thanks Sir Java Man! ....beesting. JavaMan (10/15/2000; 16:26:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 39084) beesting, fyi... 1.E=Extrovert...I=Introvert. How people prefer to obtain energy.2.S=Uses 5 Senses...N=Uses Intuition(To reach conclusions) How people prefer to gather information.3.T=Thinker...F=Feeling How people prefer to make decisions.4. P=Perceiver....J=JudgementalOverall attitude towards life.(First Impressions, etc.) jayzee (10/15/2000; 16:22:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 39083) REVELATION Please always specify to buy REAL gold, (bars or/and coins) instead of paper certificates! Thanks. beesting (10/15/2000; 16:17:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 39082) Steve H's # 39058! A third second to Gandalf the White's # 39070!Congratulations Steve H, I think this second officially qualify's your # 39058 to the USAGOLD HOF! Great Post!!!**********************************************************Nickel62,Java Man, and Ross L....Myers-Briggs test:In the last 20 years I took the test 3 times and like Sir Ross L I scored slightly different results each time.To refresh old memories(mine) how many total questions in the test? Also please fill in the missing letter.(F) For those that don't know what the letters stand for:1.E=Extrovert...I=Introvert.2.S=Uses 5 Senses...N=Uses Intuition(To reach conclusions)3.T=Thinker...P=Perceiver.4.J=Judgemental type....F=????????Must be forgetful, because I remember I was an "F".Conclusion(mine):Some human minds are continually evolving, similar to the earth and the universe, while other minds are not!!FWIW....beesting. JavaMan (10/15/2000; 15:39:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 39081) I missed the SteveH (10/15/2000; 8:34:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 39058) post completely (today was a honey do day) and am glad it generated some response which lead me to find it. What a lucid read...and as I think I, and many others, would benefit from additional reads of the post, let's put it where it would be most accessible...in the HOF as also suggested by the gentlemen below.auspec (10/15/2000; 13:41:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 39074)Gandalf the White (10/15/2000; 12:51:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 39070) nickel62 (10/15/2000; 15:17:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 39080) Justamerebear, I always have leaned toward the less dramatic example of the 1970s When trying to imagine what might be instore for the dollar and the value of gold. In that period much like now gold was being held down by a lot of factors at the artifical price of $42.25/ounce. When it finally did get to free itself and believe me it was a very erratic run,up and then down again sideways for years then up and down and sideways and then finally a major up move in a very short period of time from $600 to $800. This took more than ten years. It resulted in an eighteen fold increase from the low to the peak but it was a good possible example of how the current situation might play out. The dollar lost much of its value during the period but like many major currencies continued to have its primary funciton of being a facilitator of trade. The first thing you noticed was that houses which were in tight supply because of the emerging babyboomers entering the housing market for the first time began to take off in price. The second was the rapid increase in the price of oil around the arab boycott in late 1973. Then the wages that you got started to reflect the reduced value of the dollar as inflation started to take off and companies had to pay up for labor or they would have none. Houses roughly tripeled during the ten year period in non hot housing areas and wages more than doubled in nominal terms and the dollar declined big time against the yen and the German Mark. The British of course were sufferring from an even worse case of the same problems we had so their currency went down even more than ours did but the parralles are interesting. So don't get too carried away with the get a gun and guard your stash scenario, peoples have a way of muddling through and if and when the dollar does begin to loose value it will probably be dramatic but not cataclismac and will largely be played out in the same general context of the examples above although maybe at a faster pace and with a steeper slope. Mr Gresham (10/15/2000; 15:07:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 39079) Steve H -- #39058 You really nailed it! -- so many pithy sentences and phrases that carried the ideas we've been working on here. It's amazing how a restatement can seem so fresh!This is how scientists work on sub-atomic particles, ones they'll never see in any form, but only by measuring and comparing the effects to known phenomena can they advance knowledge in that field.I'd like to bounce questions off your posting when I get back later... Midas Mulligan (10/15/2000; 14:57:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 39078) response to Justamerebear's remark about my mind What kind of mind would use the Ayn Rand character Midas Mulligan as a nickname in a gold forumn? The perfect, which simply means normal, mind, the mind of a person like the character John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. I'm totally 100% honest and rational like John Galt and my brain, which is a real life version of the John Galt motor, can drain emotion which is static energy like oil, from irrationalists. I take energy away from irrational people and give it to absolute minds like mine, as represented in Atlas Shrugged by the strikers. Then the irrationalists are forced to replenish their lost energy or emotion by draining the minds not on strike, "Atlases", called scabs. That's how I get the minds to join me on strike so I can drain the brain and make the world of emotion collapse in order to make reason absolute, ie. establish a gold standard. Ayn Rand meant what she said in Atlas Shrugged. It is a literal forecast as I'm literally the real John Galt. (BrooksDorn@hotmail.com) RossL (10/15/2000; 14:30:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 39077) auspec http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/hbm.htm charts justamereBear (10/15/2000; 14:23:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 39076) Nickel62 Sorry too. I see that I have mispelled you name more than once. Sorry!And, see, that changes the possibilities of what sort of mind you might have, and your motivations. (smile)And now I am off to commune with my offspring. Later. justamereBear (10/15/2000; 13:52:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 39075) Turnaround 714 Nickle62 TURNAROUND - 39049 War between the states.Hello Sir Turnaround. Had a look at Sierra Times, and have tried a couple of searches. One certainly does have to sort through a great deal of hay to find a needle on the internet. But it is a worthwhile idea and train of thought, and I will pursue.ThanksRegarding the eradication of the US Dept. of Education; I believe that several DEPT's., who insist that, only they are all knowing, and get their fiddle faddeling pudgy little fingers in my life, must, and will go. Big is no longer beautiful. Still it is imperative that the other part of the expression, education, be expanded. It is still true that the most effective education come from 2 people, a student and a teacher, sitting on a log. (and I view education as critical to our ongoing survival)714 -- 39050 Confederate dollars.I am not quite sure how to start, or even how to express myself. In short, you have opened a can of worms for me with your post.I suppose the question of how the authorities will react to the coming turmoil, has always been a major part of my thinking, but for some reason, I had not given adequate consideration to where the ripple would go next. In short; How the nation state will evolve, and on what foundations.It is fine to say or think, I will own gold, because when fiat collapses, "I will be rich". But "rich", in and of itself, isn't going to do much. True this may give you options not available to those who do not have such assets. But, most goldbugs do not carry it to the next step. For instance, most do not consider the negatives adequately. "Fine, I will get a gun. That will protect me," and they stop there. You can't stay awake forever, and sooner or later, one of the thousands who covet what you have, (most also with guns, especially the entrenched authority, government.) is going to get through to you, and if you are lucky, the worst that will happen is you lose your hard won assets.This Thorington case, for me has brought to the forefront a train of thought that I had not previously pursued adequately.As an aside, the case mentions "in TILE circumstances" several times. At first I thought it was simply a typo for THE. After several repetitions, I began to wonder. Does "tile" have a significant meaning in old legalese?Regarding your families background, I would be most interested to know what things your parents talked about as contributing most to their suffering. What things did they need the most, and were difficult or impossible to obtain? (in as much detail as possible, eg flour as opposed to food) What things did they miss the most during that period, that were available "in the olden days"? How did the "medium of exchange" play out? What were the various forms that medium of exchange took? I know this is a massive imposition on your time, and I can see you are quite occupied. Hopefully, such a discussion will benefit both of us. Failing that, I hope to appeal to what one poster on another forum calls your sense of "namaste". (I am pleased to impart this information, or, teach you.) I can be reached at currie@mqcinc.comThanks for everything.NICKLE62 - 39056 Meyers-BriggsI am not going to go there. This is the sort of subject that interests the BEJAYUS out of me, can consume untold hours of time and thought, and is not particulary pertinent to my main goal of how to cope with the coming events.In that vein, I have sometimes speculated as to the derivation of some of the names used as handles at this forum. Peter Asher may well be Peter Asher, but Midas Mulligan makes sense only when you know Ann Rand. And then what kind of mind, or at what stage of its development, would find the example Midas portrayed as significant to a gold discussion? (not that I say it does not, but what kind of mind?) It does seem a truism that birds of a feather, flock togeather. auspec (10/15/2000; 13:41:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 39074) HOF Steve H 39058 Steve H & Gandalf the White {would love an explanation on that one!},Here is an official 2nd for HOF post #39056 by Steve H.For all of you recent posters asking for explanations in plain English, here it is. All you had to do was ask and wait a couple weeks. Couple comments- Could you refer me to location of RossL chart, don't recall that one specifically?Steve, If this goes in HOF you had better hope you can ammend the post to delete your dollar losses. You're braver than I, as can't even bring myself to add them up! Can see you showing your Gchildren your HOF post, explaining why no inheritance is coming their way. They will be quite impressed. Of course, when this whole scenario plays out the way we KNOW it is going to, that 100K isn't gonna mean much.Clearly the Govt-CB-BB structure has lead to temptations and subsequent abuses, yet I do not think the existing structure alibi is going to hold up to scrutiny. I still don't know exactly where the line is, but they sped past it years ago. If all this passes as business as usual it's later than we think! They could return my losses and I would remain mad as Hell and still hot on the trail.Great post, integrating your own thoughts and interpretations with numerous others. You are on the "cutting edge" and we look for further illuminations from you!Auspec the Auadvocate {has nothing to do with guacamole} nickel62 (10/15/2000; 13:33:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 39073) java Man I must admit your wife hit me dead on. I never thought of anyone preparing the text before entering it on the posting page and my misspellings prove that I never have. It is a fascinating twist to this arguement. If you look at the various personality types and the number who have these types in the population you begin to see a slightly different perspective on the entire discussion of fiat versus real money and many other issues. It is safe to say that most of us have the vast majority of our friends and associates look at us with complete disbelief when we even question if fiat is money or that there might be a reason to own gold. I will continue more on this subject later. I hope that others who know their personality type will share it with us so that we can see who is attracted to this arguement. Best wishes to you and your wife she is a very fast read. REVELATION (10/15/2000; 13:15:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 39072) VERILY VERILY ...I SAY ONTO YOU PREPARE NOW, OUR FUTURE IS UNCERTAINWHAT IF:The middleeast does shut down OIL supplies, no oneperson would have fuel for their vehicles. Our citieswould collapse with food distribution cut off and manyeveryday necessities rationed. The U.S. dollar wouldbe almost worthless in this kind of enviroment. Or we our struck by terrorism inside this country and dams are destroyed and stock exchanges broughtto a halt by surprise terrorist bombings. Could happenand gold and silver would be off the market at anyprice. REVELATION can lead you to water, but can't make youdrink. If anything major out of the ordinary occurs to alterpeoples lives, there will be no time to prepare. At todayslow prices for precious metals it is prudent and recommended to have up to 20% of ones wealth inP.M.'s. Any credited investment advisor would recommend10%, but with prices as cheap as today 20% is a good bet.When the dam breaks, it will be too late buy only at ridiculous inflated prices. Keep in mind GOLD is the sameas insurance. It only pays off when you have the insurance during the loss or accident. Just like insurance, you cannotgo out and buy it after the fact or loss. Don't be caughtwithout it !!!!!FARFEL especially needs to pay attention to the perilswe all face in life. Just because GOLD doesn't go uptoday, doesn't mean it will not go up tomorrow. The factis we really don't want gold to go too high. Then we willnever be able to enjoy it. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR !!!!!!!!! gidsek (10/15/2000; 13:14:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39071) Saddam ... Iraq ... Euros for Oil I must say I'm a little surprised that we aren't more excited about this development. Is this not the beginning of ANOTHERs' scenario out in the open? Witness this post from another forum (not widely commented on either). Even this post omitts the comments of French official Jacques Santer, who suggested that pricing in Euros would "stabilize" the oil markets. (butter would not melt in that mans' mouth)(Please excuse the venom at the bottom but I didn't think it was my place to edit James' post)Credit to James of Kitco--------------Date: Thu Oct 12 2000 18:13James (The pieces are all falling into place) ID#69113:Copyright © 2000 James/Kitco Inc. All rights reservedAbout 4 weeks ago Iraq stated that it intended to sell its oil for EUROS. They recently made an even stronger statement in which they said that if the cannot sell their oil for EUROS then they will NOT SELL it at all. About 2 weeks ago plane loads of officials from at least a dozen countries including france, iran, russia & libya began arriving in iraq. Coincidence? I don't think so. It is ironic that saddam may be the man that lights the spark that will blow a huge hole in the obscenely overvalued u.s. war machine fiat. After all the suffering that the iraqi people have been put through by the despicable USG leadership with the full connivance of the vast majority of the brain-dead u.s. public, if they could play a role in greasing the skids for a u.s. descent into a hellish depression, then a small measure of justice will have prevailed. My fervent hope is that millions of those immoral, unprincipaled bastards who slavishly supported clintler through all of his attrocities lose their homes, their SUVs & even their lives. -----------------I saw someplace a stat to the effect that Iraq suppies %4 of the worlds' oil (79,000,000 bbl/dy).Conservatively priced at $30/bbl I make that to be about $30 billion in foreign exchange (not dervative notation but "real" fiat money) per year swinging toward the new Euro currency.Is this to small an amount to have an impact on the USD and the yellow?gidsek Gandalf the White (10/15/2000; 12:51:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 39070) SteveH (10/15/2000; 8:34:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 39058) WOWERS !!, Sir SteveH, the puzzle pieces start falling into place. -- I must agree with Sir Auspec also, as he said:auspec (10/15/2000; 10:56:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 39067)Steve H & GATAHello Steve,"I am also a GATA supporter. Your posts these last two days paint a lucid and "big picture" scenario for the end of gold supression. Thank you much." ====I feel that this review of TRUTHS should be joined with those many others in the FORUM "Hall of FAME" and hereby NOMINATE #39058 for such.====<;-) tedw (10/15/2000; 12:02:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 39069) A short brie on the f history on the legal teder laws http://www.usagold.com I want to thank ji for posting the link to attorney Larry Beecrafts history of the legal tender laws. Larry Beecraft is a first rate Constitutioanl attorney, scHolar, and patriot. If you dont understand the money issue that link i s well worth a read. The sad fact is that the courts of this country are involved in a charade. The charade is that the US Constitution is in effect. IT IS NOT. At least, large sections of it are not. Instead of the courts being forthright and saying," we dont like that part of the Constitution, so we will use our POWER to nullify it", they engage in sophisticated arguments to prove that the Constitution doesnt mean what it says it means. Thereby, they keep the average man from realizing what has been done to him. IT IS THE WORST KIND OF MIND CONTROL. The RIGHT to honest money has been stolen from the American People. It was stolen by politicians and bankers, and the deed is done. It continues with the agreement,connivance, and blessings of the current court system (Anthonky Kennedy and Clarence Thomas included). It continues with the blessing of both Political Parties. Let me state it plainly: Our government is not lawful and our courts are corrupt. That is the truth,and it is plain for all to see who which to see. If you dont see it, it is because you wont see it. And there is little you can do about it at this time except tell your children about the heritage that was stolen from them. 714 (10/15/2000; 11:04:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 39068) The Gold Debate in a Nutshell http://www.mips1.net/MGGold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043D1B242256977002A9FFE auspec (10/15/2000; 10:56:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 39067) Steve H & GATA Hello Steve,I am also a GATA supporter. Your posts these last two days paint a lucid and "big picture" scenario for the end of gold supression. Thank you much. I am attempting to get a GATA response to you regarding their strategies concerning the "system" of govt, CBs,& BBs, and the point at which abuse starts and normal intervention ends.These are clouded points, yet they go straight to the crux of the manipulation/collusion issues. Since govt can intervene in these markets to a certain point and have their actions be deemed "prudent", are we heading for a legalese showdown over the meaning of the term prudent? That is really fertile grounds compared to the word "is". Which would you rather debate the meaning of? Is this the core meaning of your post on the 14th? The conflicts of interest and the bread crumbs show us who and where, but can they be stopped prior to this thing coming to it's natural and desperate dollar end? Seems like a lot of lines get crossed in trying to determine who has crossed the line!Best to the Faithful piecing this end game puzzle together. Thanks for your discernment! Turnaround (10/15/2000; 9:51:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 39066) Dissecting a Propaganda Piece WAC (Wide Awake Club) (10/15/2000; 4:30:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 39053)Book of the Week - The Power of Goldhttp://www.sunday-times.co.uk/"This image of unthought-of wealth lies at the heart of The Power of Gold, in which history, myth and metaphor combine to produce an entertaining study of the dangers inherent in bullionworship."Hidden presuppositions: 1) Gold is worshiped by some thoughtless nuts as a religion. 2) The faithful are dangerous people. (Money is the root of all evil.)"Although familiar figures come and go - Midas, for example, and Croesus - the book's real charm lies in its detail."Hidden presupposition: Gold becomes an obsession that takes over everything else."Gold's blood-soaked history - predictable when one realises that even now there are only about 125,000 tons of it in circulation - turns out to be engagingly circular."Hidden presuppositions: 1) Gold causes murder, war and genocide. It is better not to have it around. 2) Fiat currency has no "blood soaked history"."In the early days the world's rulers tried to turn gold into money and over the past century and a half many of the world's economists have gone broke trying to turn money back into gold."Hidden presuppositions: 1) The primitive rulers of yore came up with the idea of gold as money. They forced this unnatural stuff upon the masses in order to oppress them. 1a) Modern governments are much more civilized.2) Traders would never have thought of this on their own. It has nothing to do with the Principle of Least Declining Marginal Utility.3) If you want to be part of the establishment, you had better leave this issue alone. (This, I think, is what happened to Greenspan.)"Bernstein's most entertaining chapters take in the sustained efforts of 20th-century western economies to preserve a "gold standard", the idea that, in the last resort, money could beconvertible to bullion."Hidden presuppositions: 1) Paper currency is money, gold is not.2) Governments and banks did everything they could to preserve the integrity of the monetary order."Despite a line of distinguished casualties, including the inter-war governor of the Bank of England, Montagu Norman, and Charles de Gaulle, the last vestiges of a gold standard lingereduntil 1971 when Richard Nixon did away with the Bretton Woods agreement on exchange rates."Hidden presuppositions: 1) Defenders of gold are at mortal risk.2) We are better off now without the gold standard. The rest of the world agrees."For all the perils of gold mania, exhaustively reproduced here, there is something consoling in this (literally) elemental throwback."Hidden presuppositions: 1) Gold as money is a barbaric idea promoted by (literally) lowbrow Neanderthals.2) These Neanderthals are dangerous and crazy, and we have the proof. Midas Mulligan (10/15/2000; 9:28:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 39065) Correction AS THE FED FUNDS RATED GOES SO GOES THE PRICE OF GOODS AND SERVICES, OIL, AND GOLD. (Midas Mulligan's Law.) If you want the price of gold to rise you have to get the Fed to raise the fed funds rate. To get them to do that requires data suggesting an overstrong economy or you could have a million man goldbug march around the Fed to put pressure on them to raise regardless. The rise in the Fed funds rate is the iceberg that will sink the Titanic-like markets and send gold soaring. JavaMan (10/15/2000; 9:24:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 39064) Sorry... that should have been "nickel62" RossL (10/15/2000; 9:23:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 39063) SteveH An oil-Dow chart sounds interesting, but I don't have the data on hand. Does anyone know of a good data set online that would give monthly data for oil and the Dow? JavaMan (10/15/2000; 9:21:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 39062) nickle62... who are we? I believe Carl Jung also pioneered the psychological theory that people always manage to get what they want. He used this theory to get to the root cause of people's mental illness with some success. Also, I vaguely remember a discussion on banking, US dollar, etc., that someone (Aristotle?) made a reference, in a similar vein, to people getting what they want as a partial explanation for why fiat is destined to have problems. My lovely wife, who administers MB tests, tells me that, based on her experience and observations, I am an ESTJ..."with a very strong T", she adds. For those not familiar with the test, E = Extrovert: thinks aloud to validate one's thoughts, energized by physical environment. S = Senses: gather information by using the five senses. T = Thinking: objectivity, able to separate feelings in decision making process, how one prefers to make decisions. J = Judging: overall attitude towards life or the way one prefers to live their life. Need closure, schedules, need to know what's happening next...i.e. anal.As she watched me typing her interpretation into the word processor prior to posting she mentioned that people with "P" = Perceiving: attitude towards life, would probably enter their thoughts directly into the USAGold posting page.As she was leaving the room, just now, she concluded with the statement that she is an INFP, in other words, we are complete opposites! Note that a score in any area indicates the strength of the preference and an exceptional high preference could be an indication of personality disorder. Midas Mulligan (10/15/2000; 9:20:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 39061) Let Me Simplify Everything that's said here with Midas Mulligan's Law All that's said here is true it just needs to be distilled and simplified. I've done so with my new law. AS INTEREST RATES RISE GO SO GO THE PRICE OF GOODS AND SERVICES, OIL AND GOLD. Everything else said about gold here or anywhere is derivative and secondary detail examination. nickel62 (10/15/2000; 9:20:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 39060) RossL Thank you for your response, While clearly you and I are a very small sample to prove my suggestion it is none the less very interesting. I tend to be a very talkative "I" or introvert so I often show up as an ENTP but when you read the detailed descriptions on a site like www.personalitypage.com you see the detailed desciption that fits you quite clearly. I would venture that there are most likely a great deal of more INTP s or the similar groups on here. THere are many interesting characteristics of the groups that are very helpful. The most obvious is that there is a very high correlation between jobs or careers and certain personality types. Teaching is full of ENFJ for example and composers are often ISFP s . The National Merit Scholars are 85% N s or intuitives even though they make up only about thirty five percent of the population. Your alternative reading of ISTJ is the same as my brightest child so I know a fair amount about it. THe S s or those who tend to be interested in concrete proof of the world versus the N s (intuitives) or those who are willing to put the pieces of the puzzle together through intuition are generally not as high a scorers on standardize tests which are almost always written by N s and therefore slanted toward their way of thinking. Of the National Merit Scholars the 15% that are S or Sensors versus the 85% who are N s or Intuitives are heavily ISTJ s. The ISTJ represent only 10% of the population but dominate the non N portion of the high scoring standardized test takers. The ISTJ s are also extremely heavily represented in business management and executive positions and any type of military leadership. The INTPs tend to be the big picture pure thinkers and structure builders like research scientists, architects, and gold bugs evidentially. RossL (10/15/2000; 9:02:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 39059) Nickel62, Myers-Briggs personality types I have taken the tests several times. I have usually tested as an INTP, but I also have tested as an ISTJ. It depends on the questions in the particular test. My results in the first and third letters have always been lopsided, while the second and fourth letters are very close and could go either way. SteveH (10/15/2000; 8:34:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 39058) Mr. G. The who has been well documented by GATA. We know who. It is Britain and the US (ESF) and, for some unknown reason, Deutsche Bank and the likes of GS, JP, etc. It is the countries using these civilian banks, who are in the know, that irks the likes of us. I suppose one could argue that the CB's can't intervene in the gold market directly and must use the best tools at their disposal: the bb's or bullion banks. It is this dotted line from CB's to bullion banks that gives the bb's the advantage and insider knowledge. That Mr. RR happened to have been chairperson of GS and then later Sec. Treas. and now head of Citibank and friend of Al G. shows clearly the dotted line relationship that GATA speaks of. Nothing official, just a bunch of conflict of interests in power who also have an on/off switch to investigator bodies to expose all.The why has been sufficiently documented. The US dollar has defaulted twice on its debt in gold. It is about to do it again. Nations have a right to protect their currency. Noone can argue with that. It is the manner of intervention that has us all up in arms because as commodity investors we have been duped by an underhanded attempt to show gold as only a commodity but yet has the full force and power of nations behind its manipulation in order to extend the life of the dollar. It is this relationship that has the press only focusing on gold as commodity and that completely ignores its role as monetary asset that were it left on its own accord would show inflation to be extra-ordinarily high, that has us all up in arms.It is NOW a no brainer to see that the charts of RossL and the other two (Kondratieff and Dow v Gold) show that the backing of currency with gold but not allowing it to float at market price of gold has caused governments to conspire to hide the true relationship of currency to gold. These chart show that nations can only hold inflation and gold back for so long and than vrooom something causes the clock to start over again, just as though a winding spring has broken loose. Because so much gold is stored in Central Bank vaults, they have the ability to extend the lifeline of currency but when that gold is no longer held or controlled by CB's in sufficient quantities that they loose control of it (as now appears to be the case), then the clock is reset. We are witnessing such a collosal resetting of a clock that has three lives, with the third one seemingly on its last few days or months. Who can blame the Nations for colluding in gold? Can we as Americans (some of us) really blame our country for trying to extend the life of the dollar? I say go for it. What irritates me, though, is that instead of doing it in the open, we have chosen to manipulate through hidden deals in a way that has directly cost me easily $100K, either in lost opportunity or reduced gold-share prices. It is this hidden tax that you and I bear directly through underhanded dealings with a few special banks in the know, because of their unique market position, that makes me support the efforts of GATA. I want the dollar to win, let there be no doubt. But I believe that goldbugs, mines and gold-mining countries are truly hurting because of these efforts. If the finincial powers believe that they are in a currency war, then they will take extraordinary measures to save the dollar. I believe that is what we are witnessing -- extraordinary measures of CB's to save the dollar. If that means stepping on a few goldbugs, so be it, eh? Is this right? No. Perhaps in their minds it is and that is what GATA is all about. It is a foul that has a maximum 20-yard penalty and forfeiture of the ball to the other team. Yet, the Euro was born by some pundits to replace the dollar as the eventual world reserve currency. It is the oil-gold-Euro-Dollar relationship that would appear to be the trump card in this relationship. If the dollar were to fail, and let's hope it does not, then would it be better to have another currency that could step in without much harm to world economies or would it be better to move soley to a gold standard? We have thoroughly discussed this topic here and elsewhere on the web. I believe the conclusion was that it would be better for another currency to step in that had the potential to handle the volume, as it were.In the meantime, we are forced to watch this all unfold, while we call "foul." And now we must wait while the referies determine whose ball it is and what to do about it. Negotiations will take a while, they are reviewing the tapes now. "Please, I'll take a bear and some peanuts." It is going to take a while while they figure this out.I forgot to mention that we watch this game behind an opaque screen and only occasionaly get glimpses of players being carried off the field. We hear grunts and clashing pads, but see no direct action. What is most clear: gold is at the center of a tremendous world-wide game of dollars, gold, euros, and oil. The nation players don't talk about their game, they just do their thing and we watch what we can.Finally, it is gold as the ultimate inflation indicator that keeps it suppressed. We have heard that Greenspan watches gold for signs of inflation. If he knows, and we know he knows, that gold is being held back, then he knows what true inflation there is out there. It is gold as the ultimate thermometer of inflation that throws it into center field. When gold resets the clock of values as has been shown in 1929-33 and in 1979-80, it bought time. Because the US didn't mark the dollar to gold's market value (a very unpopular move in 1971-73) the dollar only bought more time. Had it been allowed to float with the value of gold and gold allowed to act as a thermometer of spending beyond US means, then all may have been good longer term for the dollar, but instead, one chose to eschew the role of gold has on currencies -- a disciplinary role that keeps excess spending in check beyond 2500 tons of mined gold per year.So, the game appears to be about how Nations reassert the role of gold without shocking the world with that reality. Since the dollar has twice defaulted and appears close to doing so again on gold-debt (paper gold), it may have been decided by the refs that the other team (euro?) gets the ball now. We shall see. WHEN is also the question. When will gold rise? When it is time to let currencies reset the clock to gold's market value. When will it be proper to let currencies reset to a gold? When no more moves can be made to hold gold back or a key player who can turn the ball over decides its time. Is oil the key to turning the ball over? It seems so. Why? Oil going higher and gold staying low has skewed the historic relationship of gold to oil. (RossL, it would interesting to see a chart of oil v Dow, as this would likely show the reset is in progress but through oil this time [as a leading indicator]. It is oil that appears to be the leverage that will cause a turnover. The reason is the record trade deficit, the rise in US dollar inflation, and the subsequent inability of the US to control inflation as reflected into the economy by higher oil prices. We saw this in the PPI on last Friday. It showed a nearly 12% per annum inflation rate. As more oil dollars chase less physical gold, physical gold will dry up and reset the gold clock. The turnover will be complete. For now, though, the dollar is still in play and stashes of OPG (other peoples' gold) are being put in play to extend the game.So, the WHEN, now becomes when the physical gold is all called for and oil has no more to buy, then currencies will reset. Oil will drive gold higher through an ever increasing appetite for physical gold. The game can only be extended as long as players accept more and more dollars for paper gold. Once this insatiable appetite for paper has been been stopped, physical gold will rise. The ME (Middle East) may then be an attempt (in this game) to leverage the leverage or turn the timetable up. Any quick turnover, would cause more harm to the US. The ME may be such an attempt. It has the effect of ratcheting oil prices higher, forcing the hand in the trade deficit quicker, and making inflation that much more apparent. Gold is now starting to react to such pressures (but was quickly contained). The ME would seem to be another horseman then. Oil has gone ahead of gold in its traditional behavior from a lagging to a leading indicator and now oil supplies are being threatened that further compounds this traditional break in gold v oil. If oil ratchets higher quickly, then this will force hands much sooner. All eyes turn to the Middle East. (The currency battle has turned violent in the ME).I am fairly certain that all the Euro gold (Swiss 2000, British 400 or so and whatever else was allowed through the Washington agreement) is all called for already. It is supplies of new or OPG that are being tapped and when that run dries, the changeover may occur. Oil and tensions over oil appear to be the play that could force the Euro into reserve currency status much sooner than hoped for or thought possible. Higher oil prices will allow more dollars to buy more physical exerting more pressure. Physical gold will dry up much more quickly with higher oil prices. More profit, more gold. More gold, less available. Less available, higher prices for gold, once the paper can't or won't satisfy.So, the question now becomes: how long can the Commodity exchanges for gold support a lower gold price? Answer: as long as those buying the paper are satisfied to not convert paper into gold. Or, as long as those buying physical can still buy it at the artificially lower price of gold as set by COMEX and LBMA. When physical gold becomes scarce it will require more and more of it to be directed to COMEX. Or, COMEX will have to set up to demand less and less physical gold. When COMEX no longer needs physical gold or can't provide it, or provides an alternative (dollars?) for settlement, then physical gold will rise. Only those who follow COMEX much closer than I could tell us when this might be. Are the gold lease rates the barometer for this? Some of you know. ji (10/15/2000; 8:22:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 39057) A brief on the history and legality of legal tender laws and confiscation http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/MONEYbrief.html This brief is addressed to an issue commonly referred to as the "money" or "specie" issue which is based, in addition to other authority, upon Article 1, § 10, clause 1 of the United States Constitution which reads as follows: "No State shall ... coin Money; Emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts."This brief discusses this issue at length for the purpose of conclusively demonstrating the premises that constitutional money in our country can only be gold and silver coin and that the States are constitutionally compelled to operate on a specie basis. It is the contention herein that Article 1, § 10, clause 1 of the U. S. Constitution is an absolute prohibition upon the States which cannot be circumvented by permission or command of the federal government, and that such provision prohibits the States from utilizing any paper note or credit issued by any private banking institution, whether the same be Federal Reserve Notes, bookkeeping entries of liability or otherwise. nickel62 (10/15/2000; 8:03:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 39056) A strange thought for an early morning. Myers-Briggs profiles of preferences! I noticed about a year ago that many of the posters on this site when they would recount their lives story in some small fragment had a lot of similarities with myself. I began wondering if there was maybe a genetic variation called "gold bug" or someone who thinks about the things that we love to discuss here. After a little study I discovered that there was a system invented by Carl Jung that catagorized the various personalities into sixteen groups and that this system called the Myers-Briggs system was perfected and popularized by the mother daughter team Myers and her daughter who married a man named Briggs. Millions of people all around the world use this system to organize work teams in the business world and chose mates and thousands of other things. I would bet that there is a very high correlation with the types of people that share this forum. I am an INTP and while only 3-4% of the population I would bet that there are quite a few on this site. This becomes valuable for all of us since it helps clarify why we often have so little luck in trying to make our ideas understood by others. Many of the personality types that represent large portions of the population have no real wiring that would allow them to appreciate the theories we are discussing and other large portions of the population have no interest in any high theories unless they can see the clear applicability. This observation has saved my endless frustration by not wasting my arguements or efforts on those who have no interest or proclivity to understand the world in this way and instead focus my attention on those types largely NT s who might well appreciate the ideas we are discussing. THe various impacts that a system like MYers-Briggs has pays tremendous dividends in many ways and I have implemented many of its insights in everything from choosing when to leave my teenage children to their own wishes and desires which are different from mine since they are wired differently to not wasting time with trying to sell or work with people who are not likely to share my interests or values. ORO (10/15/2000; 7:41:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 39055) Cut off message was destroyed Sorry folks, it was lost on the way into the text box and the original was destroyed in the crash that often follows an online visit. I'll rewrite it when time permits me to address the issue again. Cavan Man (10/15/2000; 7:09:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 39054) FOA: If you don't have a tee time today.... RE: Ireland and the Euro (ORO: would appreciate your viewpoint on this subject also.)Those who are sceptical of the long term viability of the Euro monetary experiment often hold up Ireland as a poster child to declaim the potential ruinous effects of joining the Euro block. I have my own thoughts and will hold same but do believe the case of Ireland in the Euro and the corresponding rise in the domestic inflation there might not be directly correlated. I believe it's simply more complicated than that.Would appreciate your comments and analysis. As always...thanks. WAC (Wide Awake Club) (10/15/2000; 4:30:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 39053) Book of the Week - The Power of Gold http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/ SIXTY years ago, as a trainee researcher, Peter Bernstein was taken to the basement of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. There, five floors down, stored in vast troughs, were towering piles of what looked like outsize candy bars - about $2billion in gold, enough at that time to buy about four days' worth of the total production of America's goods and services. This image of unthought-of wealth lies at the heart of The Power of Gold, in which history, myth and metaphor combine to produce an entertaining study of the dangers inherent in bullion worship. Although familiar figures come and go - Midas, for example, and Croesus - the book's real charm lies in its detail. Did you know, for instance, that gold is so dense that a cubic foot of it weighs half a ton, that you can draw a single ounce of gold into a wire 50 miles long or beat it out into a sheet covering 100 square feet? Gold's blood-soaked history - predictable when one realises that even now there are only about 125,000 tons of it in circulation - turns out to be engagingly circular. In the early days the world's rulers tried to turn gold into money and over the past century and a half many of the world's economists have gone broke trying to turn money back into gold. Bernstein's most entertaining chapters take in the sustained efforts of 20th-century western economies to preserve a "gold standard", the idea that, in the last resort, money could be convertible to bullion. Despite a line of distinguished casualties, including the inter-war governor of the Bank of England, Montagu Norman, and Charles de Gaulle, the last vestiges of a gold standard lingered until 1971 when Richard Nixon did away with the Bretton Woods agreement on exchange rates. As for the future, at least one Nobel-winning economist maintains that gold will remain a valuable hedge in turbulent trading conditions and as such will continue to play a crucial part in the 21st-century economy. For all the perils of gold mania, exhaustively reproduced here, there is something consoling in this (literally) elemental throwback. DJ Taylor WAC (Wide Awake Club) (10/15/2000; 4:17:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 39052) Cornerstone for the Third Temple in Israel to be Laid and Annointed 10/16/2000 http://blueotter.addr.com/nativelegends/prophecy-israel-third-temple.htm support egroup (third-temple-cornerstone@egroups.com-subscribe) you may find this interesting. wolavka (10/15/2000; 3:09:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 39051) Golden Truth In "Vision of Redemption" the temple mount faithful movement states its belief that the creation of the modern state of Israel is "the Beginning of the redemption of the world."which is completed with the building of the third temple. 714 (10/15/2000; 2:43:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 39050) justamerebear re: confederate dollars http://www.pacinlaw.org/thorington.htm Found this link looking up some law tonight. It's a legal case involving a land purchase made with Confederate dollars, and a resultant lawsuit after the war was over. Basically, when the war was over, Confederate money was irredeemable and worthless, as is often the case in defeated states, noting some of my own family's suffering after WWII in Germany. A rather illiquid condition to be in. Fwiw. Turnaround (10/15/2000; 0:36:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 39049) War Between the States @ justamereBear Hello Sir j. Bear,I read a very interesting article on the internet a couple months ago about the Greenback and Confederate dollars but am unfortunately unable to locate it again. It talked about the uncertainty of the war's outcome- such that notes of both sides retained their value (or more precisely devalued at roughly the same rate) up until the last few months of the war. The Confederate note even held value better at some points in time. In both cases (North and South) the paper was discounted against specie at increasing rates. A search engine such aswebcrawler.commay turn this article up for you.Also,SierraTimes.comhas some good articles on postwar Union propaganda, still being disseminated in government schools and CFR-controlled media. Imo, the US Dept. of Education will need to be eradicated- the collapse of the dollar will provide an opportunity to accomplish this and other worthy projects.*********@ OROOn another subject, I briefly scanned an Hispanic-community newspaper about a month ago that had a Mexican Minister of Finance's statement on the front page, to the effect that Mexico has now retired all of its dollar denominated debt (as ORO has been saying), without giving the method (euro carry?). He went on to proclaim in rather bombastic tones (although this might be an artifact of translation) that Mexico will not be taking out anymore IMF loans unless it is upon their terms. There was a distinct 'Yanqui go home' flavor to it.Your last, most fascinating post was chopped off, would you be so kind as to re-post it?**********@ JourneymanAnd on another subject that I meant to write about back when, "20/20" aired a piece on or about May 31st, 2000 concerning a proposed luxury tax on yachts. The rate was something like $200K on $million. A presumably wealthy woman was interviewed at a marina, asked her opinion of the tax. As she brushed bleach-blond straw out of her leather saddlebag face she replied to the effect:"We don't need such a tax since we already give so much more than 200K to charity. After all, the poor would not even exist if we didn't support them."It was a classic piece of footage, wish I had a copy. This particular philosopher-economist is not unusual in her views, in my albeit limited experience. Point being, every culture, has its own set of beliefs, or mythology, that support its raison d'ętre, however twisted they might be. Mr Gresham (10/15/2000; 0:24:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 39048) Steve H -- #39045 "The Washington agreement was the shot across the bow."The more I think back on the past year, the more amazing the immediate price spike of 30+% was in the context of behavior in normal markets.It meant several things:SOMEBODY(S) was/were watching the European central banks. They did not need to study gold for months and years more to know the connection between CB behavior and gold supply availability. They are still out there, with bucks to commit.The only question for them had to be WHEN the Euro CBs would make the move. The Somebody(s) in September '99 thought they might be too late to get on board a runaway gold price, and bought the upswing. Who were they? Hibernating gold bugs? I don't th-e-e-e-nk so...They were those near the center of financial power and information. WHO ELSE would be watching such an announcement as closely? Until I started reading this forum, I had no thoughts of connecting Europe and gold -- like nearly all other ordinary investors. A reasonable surmisal: A price surge IS possible, likely, even inevitable, and only some downward pressure from more powerful sources keeps it postponed. Only the who and how remains hidden from us, to be read in history books or memoirs later. The only hints we get in the meantime are from market eruptions like the WA one. ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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