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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/13/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time
(Yesterday's Discussion.)
Solomon Weaver
(07/13/01; 22:48:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 58052)
Comparative Advantage
http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htm
"It is not my desire to be an alarmist and I certainly take no satisfaction from "crying wolf." I began writing the Credit Bubble Bulletin specifically because of our view of the historic nature of the unsound boom and the inevitability of a major subsequent adjustment. My goal is to try to bring some understanding and perspective to what will be extraordinary financial and economic developments. And the more I work and study, the greater my conviction that we have experienced a highly unusual period where sound economics were tossed aside by a powerful wave of dubious and dangerous notions of "New Age" finance. Granted, history has other examples of such folly, but not many that compare to what we have witnessed." Doug Noland
---------
This weeks update out tonight.
By the way.....welcome again Aragorn....all that is gold does not glitter.
Poor old Solomon
Just waking up
(07/13/01; 22:42:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 58051)
@ Camel msg#58047
Camel (07/13/01; 21:07:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 58047)
Inflation/deflation
Inflation or deflation ? If a foreigner is holding 100,000 shares of IBM as part of their reserve and wishes to convert to Euros, they would sell the shares and the proceeds would go into a dollar cash account. The dollars would then be used to purchase Euros on the FOREX and the Euros would be used to purchase some sort of European stock or bond.
In the process the share price of IBM would go down incrementally and the dollars would disappear completely because the wealth they represented had been tranferred into the Euro. The value of the Euro would increase relative to the dollar and the value of the European security would go up.
Me: Wrong. The dollars would NOT disappear completely. They would be held by whoever sold you the euros. He would have to do something with them. They become part of "the big float" that may someday come surging back upon us, causing some horrific inflation.
Bob
Gandalf the White
(07/13/01; 22:07:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 58050)
< ; - )>>
WOWSERS !!! THE "KING" Aragorn III has returned !!
The Wiz shall swallow his pride and ask for the forgiveness of all, just to be able to come back to the chair at the end of the TableRound.
YES, SIR Goldfly, I quickly found that there is nowhere outside the Castle to go, as all eyes are looking toward the Castle.
May I ask only one favor of all ? PLEASE, please let us all be Gentlemen and Ladies at this TableRound, as truly the eyes of the world are "listening" to these postings. There are no good reasons to even "kid" or "josh" at others thoughts. If you can not agree with the poster, and wish to post your defined reasons why you can not agree with his/her thoughts in an amiable fashon, simply do not post !!
Age has given me a chance to evaluate many of my early years errors and I have sincerely regreted many things that I have said and done before. However, now that my hourglass sand is flowing swiftly, I try to not repeat my younger exuberant reactions, and think more about my actions. BUT, sometimes I slip.
----
Now SIR Aragorn III, the Hobbits are ready for your tales of travel from your long sojourn ! Was it not Moridor that you visited ?
----
<;-)
megatron
(07/13/01; 22:04:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 58049)
Canuck
A perfect example is Franco Nevada. the exchange of Normandy for Ken Snyder is to me a bad sign, a sign they believe POG is sideways, at best, for at least another year.
They must believe they can unwind the 'book' in time to cash in on Normandy's outstanding assets. Or they believe the US gov't is going to nationalize gold mines, or......
Goldfly
(07/13/01; 21:16:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 58048)
Aragorn III !!!!!!!!!
Hey Brother! Where you been???
And Gandy,.... Where you gonna go?
Camel
(07/13/01; 21:07:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 58047)
Inflation/deflation
Inflation or deflation ? If a foreigner is holding 100,000 shares of IBM as part of their reserve and wishes to convert to Euros, they would sell the shares and the proceeds would go into a dollar cash account. The dollars would then be used to purchase Euros on the FOREX and the Euros would be used to purchase some sort of European stock or bond.
In the process the share price of IBM would go down incrementally and the dollars would disappear completely because the wealth they represented had been tranferred into the Euro. The value of the Euro would increase relative to the dollar and the value of the European security would go up.
Of course this would be a disaster for the U.S. All the sales of stocks , government and corporate bonds, would crash the various markets as they could not withstand all the selling , hence Anothers famous phrase, "All paper will burn". ,and it would be differant than before , because all the money would not be " on the sidelines" waiting to jump back in , it would have been permenantly transferred out of the dollar system into the Euro system so as to maintain the reserve.
This sounds like deflation to me. Not more dollars chasing fewer goods. The dollars would have been destroyed in the switch to the Euro and the inflation would be occuring in the Euro zone.
Aragorn III
(07/13/01; 20:44:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 58046)
Fellowship, and words of remembrance
Alas! that you were not Gandalf the Grey, who passed only briefly, to return enlightened as Gandalf the White.
The anger of the good is like a line drawn on the surface of water, which does not last long.
Canuck
(07/13/01; 20:43:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 58045)
Last post
That one is for you Aristotle.
Canuck
(07/13/01; 20:41:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 58044)
When
Took another stash of silver to the bank today, watched the teller drop the safety deposit box on her foot again; must be starting to hurt now. (grin)
On the way out the 12 year old son says, "You said gold would go up 2 years ago"
"I was wrong"
"You said gold would go up last year"
"I was wrong"
"You said gold would go up this summer"
"I was wrong"
"So why are you still buying gold?"
"Because I'm not wrong"
Canuck
(07/13/01; 20:34:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 58043)
Placer Dome
No opinions regarding Placer's selling of Las Cristinas?
Heard at least 3 minors fighting over rights, KRY seemingly in the front row.
I am a little puzzled why PDG would let this go. I would have bet, if they believed in higher prices, that the 'operation under care' scenario would have played out. Mind you I also heard that Las Cristinas is only viable with gold approaching $400. Maybe PDG views the Venezualan headache not worth it?
Kind of has a little of the Barrick-Homestake twist, can be read either way. Does ABX believe higher prices therefore the 'unhedged' acquisition or a new source of 'hedge' to prolong the agony?
Physical remains safe bet, IMHO, difficult to slam money down on these producers when their backdoor activities are a guess.
Canuck
(07/13/01; 20:16:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 58042)
@ KarenSue
You are welcome.
The forum is at times emotional, success in monetary affairs does not allow that.
You watch movies......you have seen 'The Last Boy Scout'?
Mr. Willis's inference of logic upon discovering his 'dry' showered wife is most amazing, yes?
"The door remains closed!"
You evade my ponderance of a), b) or c) with a non-response?
Back to the topic of gold...........are you a PGA Ms.KarenSue?
auspec
(07/13/01; 20:15:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 58041)
Rich
Hard to contemplate a Forum w/o the Wiz. Much like my desk without a bottle of gold and quartz on it.
Tree in the Forest
(07/13/01; 19:50:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 58040)
Predictions of an advanced robotic web scanning quantum model
http://urbansurvival.com/week.htm
This website has some very interesting predictions produced by a rather sophisticated computer model. Quantum mechanics is a probabilistic predictive system. It doesn't always make sense on an intuitive level but is very successful at predicting real world phenomena. What follows are the kind of events that would cause gold to blow! A snippet:
Special Friday Morning Update:
Extreme Caution Urged!
Summary:
A software company think tank using an advanced quantum model that includes advanced web-scanning robots has shared with me an output that predicts a major market turning point in the next few weeks. Major market effects may be seen as early as Monday of this coming week. The quantum model has outputs showing the highest event probability centered in the time frame spanning from Saturday night U. S. time through Monday. July 14th PM to July 15 mid-day. This model predicts a Dow of 6,000 by September.
Probabilities:
The quantum model outputs are focused in several areas. In the mid-section of the U.S.,South America and Asia. The "entities" that show up in this advanced model (discussed in the Wednesday article below) have been developing since March of this year. Other areas highlighted by the model include weather and high profile business/government personalities (leaders).
Quantum predictive models are not precise. Rather, they
indicate potential for events to occur. The chances of
something significant occurring and being visible are on the order of 85% in next 45 days. Within that 45 day window there is a 65% chance of something being obvious in 14 days. The odds of a "direct hit" for this weekend, though small, are significant enough that I feel an obligation to share the model outputs with you.
Perception Level:
A major problem with complex systems models is that a tipping point event may be above or below our perception levels. For example, something very small may occur this weekend below our perception threshold that may only become obvious two months from now. Above the perception level? Well, you may see that Sunday on CNN.
Multiple Events:
Similarly, there is no way of knowing in advance whether the
predicted tipping point just ahead this weekend will involve a single event or multiple events. It may be an aggregate of many small inputs scattered geographically as one "fitting" to the model, or it may be a single huge event. The robot scans see all kinds of potential series of events
that could lead to the tipping point this weekend: the Argentine currency crisis, the president of Bolivia is leaving his country for cancer treatments, a flare up between India and Kashmir, and Israeli push into the West Bank, a reported dogfight between UFO's over the Urals in Russia, an increase in quake activity worldwide, and the death of a high profile political leader are all in the mix of the 1500+ data points the model plots.
Singular events that would meet the model predictive parameters could involve something as horrible as a weapon of mass destruction set off in the central section of the
U. S. or two hundred-meter class meteor entering the atmosphere of the middle U.S. and impacting South America causing mass destruction and the death of fourteen million. That's the estimated death toll that could occur from a 200 meter meteor depending on trajectory and which populated areas it devastates. But that's not a model output, that's my estimate of what would "fit" the predicted range.
(Thanks for the link aspro)
R Powell
(7/13/01; 18:56:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 58039)
Fleckenstein
http://www.bearforum.com/cgi-perl/bbs.pl?read=159866
This prints out at six pages. I haven't read it yet so I can not offer any comments other than I always looked for and enjoyed this man's work until it joined the pay-per view status. This one is free! Hope it's good.
I feel as though someone with mystical vision is no longer watching out for our collective welfare. You will be missed Wizard, as will so many others who have departed.
Rich
Max Rabbitz
(07/13/01; 16:30:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 58038)
Deep Storage
"Deep Storage" could mean it is still in the mines. The Treasury may indeed own it but just hasn't mined it yet.
CoBra(too)
(07/13/01; 15:20:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 58037)
- Go Gold, Blondie ...
As I have no wish, nor do I want to get entangled in discussions, where the "absolute truth of whatever is "money" or the concept of 'real' money may be defined in an absolute way, I'd have to say, I only believe in the relative valuation - not value - of the perception of 'make believe' that one currency is a better bet than the next.
Under this pretext, I'd underwrite Bill Buckler's definition of a 'medium of exchange' as anything else can be derived from this simple 'premonition'.
So, in the end todays money is a concept, based on the relative strenght of and towards the issuers economic 'contempt'.
Ah yes, and that is where we get inflamed, since some may feel, relativity is to be blamed if one of the contestants has an advantage of a hundred yards, frontrunning the rest of us toads and telling us to use the same yardsticks - As there is - enhancement of Productivity, Proficiency and Profit - a proclivity to profligacy!
And as everything is relative to - a fitting definition - and as all currencies have been cut off from reality, or the absolute long term stability of a gold standard, which we may never again see - I personally find it mute to discuss the real meaning of money.
... Which shouldn't keep you, Honey, from saving money in reality ... go gold, Blondie ... cb2
megatron
(07/13/01; 15:09:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 58036)
Inflation/Deflation
I wonder why people and economists constantly compare the deflation of the 30's and stagflation of the 70's with today's scenario. Is it because we need a reference and those are the only 2 which we have quantitative data on?
As an analogy, the discovery of the phenomenon of supernovae and the subsequent mathematics and astophysics that followed, gave a very simplistic picture of the process' going on deep inside a star. As more were observed and their light spectrum analyzed, it was, and is being revealed that each 'general type' has unknown variations that occur, to our surprise. I believe that there are things that you 'don't know that you don't know' in both cases and they will be revealed to the surprise of EVERYONE.
This is why it is confusing people as to whether we are in a deflation or a inflation. This particular pattern may have NO observable historical precedent, and thus it is pure speculation on the outcome.Maddening, of course!
escapethematrix
(07/13/01; 14:02:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 58035)
RossL ....re: #58033
Hi there, Ross. I don't mean to butt in on your post directed to Randy, but your thoughts seem to reflect the P.O.V. of many of the "hard money" posters here. Frankly, I'm sure that many of you know a vast amount more in regard to economic theory than I. Your post just seemed like a good opportunity to show an opposing view of your interpretation of TG and Randy's view from someone with no preconceived views on the subject matter.----Your comments are first----
-----Randy also said:"Only an innocent fool attempts to save money over time."----
Perhaps, a more accurate explanation might read: Only a person, who cannot conceive of the ever-depreciating nature of our modern fiat system, attempts to save money over time.
----How about Trail Guide's prior use of the term "hard money socialists"? What exactly does that mean----
I believe that what he means is that central banks intertwine gold credit in our system in a manner not to reflect it's true value and/or worth, but in a way to foster an ever-expanding"socialistic" system to allow our society to continue to live beyond it's real means.
----These are attempts to redefine words, these are attempts to impugn motives. These are attempts to silence critics. They are a typical tactic of those who would attempt to obscure truths about central banks, governments and paper money. Is anyone still wondering why people are dropping off the trail?----
I disagree with your interpretation. It seems to me that many ‘hard money" posters here, are too caught up in the past to see the future. It's a case of tunnel vision blinding their economic perspicacity. TG has said that basically, in a perfect world not dominated by "political will", and crony capitalism that Oro's system would be best. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.
----I respect all the attempts to foretell events that may happen in the near future, and all the effort by everyone involved in participating at the forum. However, the elaborate justifications and all this obfuscation just isn't going anywhere with me. Call me blockheaded, but I have no respect for people who know the truth (or should know it) and try to obscure it for personal gain or just to satisfy their inflated ego. ----
It would seem that your words don't reflect that respect or tolerance very well.
----This "freegold" plan for the Euro is just another go-around of governments and central banks forcing a new constantly depreciating fiat money on the masses. As far I am concerned, manipulation of the gold price to a high one is just as bad as manipulating it down. It is still a big ripoff of those 'innocent fools' who place trust in their leaders. Let us not pretend that this trail being described is the solution to all the monetary problems in the world.----
When did either Randy or TG ever say that the Euro system would be such a "solution"? They simply say that it is the future, like it or not, and try to help us understand the coming paradigm shift in our financial landscape. Perhaps no better, perhaps no worse than what we have now.
----Some day, free market money will evolve because it is superior to forced fiat money. Some day, the civilized world will cure the common cold, we will walk the streets without fear, we will conquer cancer, and we will have a money that is based on free choice, integrity,and not a paper forced on us by a government with an army----
Such a perspective is a nice sentiment, but a very naïve view of human nature.
Welcome back TG. Thanks for remaining on the Trail, for those of us that want to prepare for the future, and watch this New Gold market together.
Good Luck and peace to all.
Econoclast
(07/13/01; 14:00:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 58034)
R Powell, justamerebear, ORO: Thanks for the responses
Inflation or Deflation?
This is a tough subject for me. Everytime I start to write something, I am confounded by a contradictory thought and erase what I wrote. I am really starting to look at this as a personal challenge to deliver something worthy to myself and the Forum on this issue.
I feel this will take time, but it is becoming an exercise that I feel I "need" to undertake.
RossL
(07/13/01; 12:48:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 58033)
Randy #57993
In your post 57993: "And he'd be justified in that view, if that's indeed what he meant. But because the money supply (read "credit") is destined to grow with man's economic development and expansion, this form of "robbery" is unavoidable. That is why we must all look toward tangible assets (such as gold) as the avenue into which we direct our savings. Only an innocent fool attempts to save money over time."
Snip:"this form of "robbery" is unavoidable".
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. The form of robbery foisted on us by centrally planned banking and fiat money is destined to collapse. It always has in the past and it always will. This form of "robbery" is not unavoidable. I find your position very pessimistic. Bad credit may be unavoidable, but having it forced on the populace certainly is avoidable.
Some day, A free market money will evolve because it is superior to forced fiat money. Some day, the civilized world will cure the common cold, we will walk the streets without fear, we will conquer cancer, and we will have a money that is based on free choice, integrity,and not a paper forced on us by a government with an army. Fiat money is based on a lie, and if it is inevitable, then civilization will not survive.
Randy also said:"Only an innocent fool attempts to save money over time."
Again, we are going to have to disagree on the definition of money. I will stick with the classic Austrian definition. Money is a store of value. I view thisas as a contradiction of your statement. You are of course referring to currency.
Yesterday we were presented with Trail Guide's attempt to depict a person with the hard money view as the cartoon character going over the cliff with feet scrambling. Trail Guide has it all backward. Hard money is on a solid foundation and paper money is the one floating in air, is it not?
How about Trail Guide's prior use of the term "hard money socialists"? What exactly does that mean?
These are attempts to redefine words, these are attempts to impugn motives. These are attempts to silence critics. They are a typical tactic of those who would attempt to obscure truths about central banks, governments and paper money. Is anyone still wondering why people are dropping off the trail?
I respect all the attempts to foretell events that may happen in the near future, and all the effort by everyone involved in participating at the forum. However, the elaborate justifications and all this obfuscation just isn't going anywhere with me. Call me blockheaded, but I have no respect for people who know the truth (or should know it) and try to obscure it for personal gain or just to satisfy their inflated ego.
This "freegold" plan for the Euro is just another go-around of governments and central banks forcing a new constantly depreciating fiat money on the masses. As far I am concerned, manipulation of the gold price to a high one is just as bad as manipulating it down. It is still a big ripoff of those 'innocent fools' who place trust in their leaders. Let us not pretend that this trail being described is the solution to all the monetary problems in the world.
Sierra Madre
(07/13/01; 12:07:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 58032)
Netking: your 58017...pulling the plug on Argentina...
The danger of allowing Argentina to "twist in the wind", as O'Neil proposes, is that the whole ball of wax may fall apart.
In the early '30's, that's what happened. There was no lender of last resort. Each country "looked after itself". And so they all went down, like dominoes.
If O'Neil wants to turn a blind eye to the problems of Argentina, which are intrinsic to the dollar reserve system, and not- fundamentally - attributable to good or deficient administration in Argentina, that contradicts the perpetuation of the dollar reserve system. He can't have it both ways. So now what?
The Argentinians are linked to the dollar through a Currency Board. So now, they practically have the dollar as their currency. But there is no trust in the Currency Board, so interest rates - in pesos which are disguised dollars - are high, very high.
There seems to be a panic going on, people turning in their Currency Board pesos for the "real thing" - green dollars.
The strong Currency Board peso and high interest rates, are killing exports. Tax income must be falling sharply. It is impossible to print Currency Board pesos to cover the deficit. Borrowing abroad is already excessive. Wages and expenditures must fall drastically. Massive cutbacks of state expenditure and employment of bureaucracy are required. Massive collapse of economic activity as internal market shrinks. If that sounds like DEFLATION, it's because it IS deflation.
Net/net/net: Are we approaching the final conclusion to the modern conception of the welfare state?
Old Yeller
(07/13/01; 11:49:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 58031)
Slip slidin'away
http://www.dismal.com/economy/releases/release_2k.asp?r=usa_ecriwli
Contagion is spreading.Sounds ominous,time for another 50bps.?
Thanks to amarksp for the link.
Sierra Madre
(07/13/01; 11:46:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 58030)
Netking...Your 58017..."unpluging"
The danger of allowing Argentina to "twist in the wind", as O'Neil proposes, is that the whole ball of wax may fall apart.
In the early '30's, that's what happened. There was no lender of last resort. Each country "looked after itself". And so they all went down, like dominoes.
If O'Neil wants to turn a blind eye to the problems of Argentina, which are intrinsic to the dollar reserve system, and not- fundamentally - attributable to good or deficient administration in Argentina, that contradicts the perpetuation of the dollar reserve system. He can't have it both ways. So now what?
The Argentinians linked to the dollar through a Currency Board. So now, the practically have the dollar as their currency. But there is no trust in the Currency Board, so interest rates - in pesos which are diguised dollars - are high, very high.
There seems to be a panic going on, people turning in their Currency Board pesos for the "real thing" - green dollars.
The strong Currency Board peso and high interest rates, are killing exports. Tax income must be falling sharply. It is impossible to print Currency Board pesos to cover the deficit. Borrowing abroad is already excessive. Wages and expenditures must fall drastically.(massive cutbacks of state expenditure and employment of bureaucracy) If that sounds like DEFLATION, it's because it IS deflation.
Net/net/net: its seems we are approaching the final conclusion to the modern conception of the welfare state?
megatron
(07/13/01; 10:34:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 58029)
These are a few of my favorite things.....
I guess it's fairly obvious why 'beurocrats' and liberals don't like gold or guns.
Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD
(07/13/01; 09:47:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 58028)
Hard assets... Easy access!
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/st_gaudens.html
Quality and Quantity
Call us to discuss the strategy that's right for YOU.
TOLL FREE PHONE
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Tree in the Forest
(07/13/01; 09:39:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 58027)
Gun rights
Many people would like the issue of gun rights to go away. The politically correct are not only afraid of guns, they are afraid of the word "gun". The issue of the 2nd amendment to the Constitution will not go away. It will be in everyone's face to the point of World War being waged over gun right's. Repost:
THE NEW WORLD DISORDER
Gun-rights group
to protest U.N.
Will stage rally against global small-arms conference
By Jon Dougherty
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com
The New York chapter of a nationwide pro-gun group is planning to stage a protest against a United Nations-sponsored small-arms conference, to voice its opposition to what the group's leaders describe as an effort to circumvent Americans' right to keep and bear arms.
The state chapter of the Tyranny Response Team, in a statement released Monday, said it will stage a rally tomorrow at the U.N. headquarters building in Manhattan.
"At stake is the intent of the United Nations to regulate 500 million civil arms worldwide, over half of which are in the United States," the statement said.
Robert Teesdale, national director for TRT, told WorldNetDaily the most egregious thing about the U.N. small-arms conference "is the unforgivably arrogant belief that [U.N. officials] have any right whatsoever to propose global regulations that infringe upon the sovereign rights of American citizens."
The U.N. is not "and never will be our master," Teesdale said.
The TRT chief said he believes the U.N. is trying to force gun bans or at least more restrictive gun control on Americans because, he says, the global organization "cannot dictate to … an armed, free people."
"The United Nations has moved far beyond its original purpose of preventing war," Teesdale said. Rather, the organization "has now … demonstrated that it wishes to reserve war-making capability to governments alone. It has demonstrated that it considers the billions of struggling humans across the world to be little more than chattels of tyrants [who are] forbidden to keep and bear arms, and thus be the masters of their own destiny."
Teesdale told WND he expected anywhere from "several hundred to several thousand" people to show up at the TRT-sponsored rally.
"I do know that American patriots are chartering buses all across the nation" to come to New York for the protest, he said, "and that the general consensus … is that showing up for this one is mandatory."
Teesdale said the message his group wanted to send to the U.N. was simple.
"Americans are not subject to your authority. We will not be disarmed. Don't tread on us."
Me again: Freedom loving American gun owners are "ungovernable". That's why FEMA is planning to put a million of us in concentration camps when Rockefeller gets his New World Order/UN war going.
Don't tread on us Rockefeller!
PH in LA
(07/13/01; 09:17:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 58026)
Trolls, Tribulations and Amnesty
Several posters have referred lately to "turmoil" and/or "unrest" here at USAgold. Much of that unrest seems like posters taking public swan dives off of the many cliffs that we find up here in "trail country". Most of those "divers" will be missed, but fortunately, Trail Guide seems to have floated miraculously to earth without a scratch. (Thank goodness!) Everyone here knows that MK has had to deal with his share of trolls and tribulations over the years. Mostly, this was accomplished with grace and firmness. Lately, since the "trolls" have been mostly suicide cases anyway, and have done little actual harm, perhaps he would consider declaring an amnesty and welcoming back those who have requested their codes be deleted. (Of course, no amnesty would apply to those whose presence has actually been harmful.) BTW, here is how the owner of another forum deals with his trolls:
"We have over 500 registered posters on Bear Forum.
"A couple fall into the category of borderline trolls.
"A borderline troll is someone who enjoys the role of a troll, but is smart enough to have a clue as to where I will draw the line. I try very hard not to be arbitrary about throwing posters off the board. Anyone with near average intelligence and an ego that is no more than 75% out of control can avoid stepping over the line.
"Anyhow, the proper response is to totally shun the troll. Cut off their food supply, they wither and die. In the meantime, the lack of any response makes their lingering death that much more uncomfortable. Remember, even a crumb fed to a hungry troll can provide sustinence for days at a time. Make them wonder whether I've made their posts invisible to everyone but them!!!!
"If you want to rant about a troll, do it with a buddy via private messaging. You'll both be able to vent at a level that would get YOU thrown off the board if you did it publicly. Much more satisfying, unless YOUR ego is more than 75% out of control, and YOU need the public forum to verify your own existence."
auspec
(07/13/01; 09:13:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 58025)
Netking
Nice synopsis #58008 "The USD & Gold"!
nickel62
(07/13/01; 08:53:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 58024)
Value? of fiat money?
Wouldn't it be better to say that the "value" of fiat money is variable and takes on the worth of the items which it is exchanged for. The value then comes from the preception of worth of the seller who ascribes value to the fiat by being willing to exchange it for his item of worth. The risk then can be seen quite clearly that fiat currency is be definition subjective and as such completely unable to be a store of value, since it only has "value" while some outside party is willing to accept it and then only at the amount he ascribes it at the time.
KarenSue
(07/13/01; 08:26:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 58023)
Sir Peter Asher Re: your post # 57623
Sir, you said to me: - ." The absence of intrinsic value is due to the unpredictability of the moment immediately following. Therefore, could we not then say that currency stores "subjective value"?
I understand that you either cannot or will not respond to this on the forum but will answer your question. If, by currency, you mean "fiat currency" my answer would be, emphatically no! Fiat stores no value whatever. It can be and is used only as a medium of exchange. Whoever is holding the stuff holds no wealth. The moment one divests oneself of the stuff in exchange for something which has value (worth) one no longer has the worthless stuff. The word store depends upon the viability of a future transaction, which viability is not guaranteed with fiat.
Only me
KS
KarenSue
(07/13/01; 08:00:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 58022)
Good sir Canuck Re: your post # 58020
Apology accepted. Thanks for the welcome. I have watched too many movies and read to many novels. The few times I have seen the use of the term newbie it was used in a less than complimentary way. I mistook your post to imply that I should limit my posts to smallish areas and gradually expand as I win approval. I should not have responded to your post at all but quickly learn that I cannot make it disappear. I shall try to limit my posts to only those, which are not reactionary in nature.
Only me
KS
uponroof
(07/13/01; 07:46:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 58021)
Las Cristinas...the chronologic events of the richest mine in South America
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/8832/kry_chronology.html#_Toc396916006
Good Morning,
Keep an eye on KRY today as it recieved some potentially great news last night regarding Las Cristinas. A mine which is rich not only in precious metals but in folk lore, court room drama, and third world politics.
"1935 Jimmy Angel discovers Angel Falls, rising 3,212 feet above the floor of the remote Venezuelan jungle. The world's tallest waterfall. He then continued to do extensive mapping of the Amazon. For his work, President Raul Leoni by Decree giving title and rights of ownership of Las Cristinas 4&6 to Jimmy Angel, husband of Dot Culver da Lemon...."
Canuck
(07/13/01; 04:59:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 58020)
@ KarenSue
I apologize Ms. KarenSue, I never did welcome you a couple weeks ago.
Welcome to the forum.
My statement was abstract, no doubt. I will carefully backtrack so as to clear the ambiguity. You are new to the forum, yes? I was amazed with your post 57854, referring to post 57835. The 'perfect structure' of your post and your knowledge of the nomination process lead me to ask myself a simple question, Ms. KarenSue has either a) been a long-time 'lurker' , b) has another alias at the forum or c) has returned to the forum under another alias. I will await your response before I go further.
I assume a) is the correct answer.
My response post (to your 57854) may have better phrased:
"KarenSue, you have been at the forum for only a couple weeks, your knowledge of the nomination process is 'bang-on'. Are you a long-time 'lurker'?"
BTW, the content of the posts had no bearing on my original post.
Awaiting......
Canuck.
Canuck
(07/13/01; 04:20:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 58019)
@ ORO
http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.html
I am proud to say that my economic and financial understandings have doubled in the last couple years thanks to posts such as yours.
I now understand 20% of what you say! ;)
May I pose two 'little' questions?
Do you read Mr. Nolan's weekly 'credit' bulletins and if you do what do you make of it? I can't decide if his information is alarming or if he is an alarmist?
From your post earlier today;
"It will not be a "gold market as before" it will be an intentional economic disaster for the whole of the world and will lead to results far different than expected."
Can you offer your thoughts as to the 'final' outcome?
TIA,
Canuck.
Netking
(07/13/01; 03:53:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 58018)
Argentinas cont. - Risk now at 1,519 points . . . . and rising . . .
Argentina's country risk at 1,519 basis points over safe-haven U.S. Treasuries, more than four times that of Mexico at 364 basis points. The nervousness in all emerging markets drove up Mexico's country risk from 346 basis points as of Wednesday's market close.
Netking
(07/13/01; 03:50:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 58017)
Argentina . . . . . unplugged?
The United States is not currently considering backing any new funds for crisis-hit Argentina -- either bilaterally or through the International Monetary Fund, sources familiar with the Bush administration's position said on Thursday.
However, the sources also said Argentina has not asked the United States for any financial support.They said that while there is much concern in the Bush administration about the Argentine crisis, there is currently no support for providing further funding. The deteriorating situation -- stemming from persistent fears in Wall Street of a default -- came despite cost-cutting measures unveiled by Economy Minister Domingo Cavallo late on Wednesday. Despite welcoming the measures, markets continued to slide sharply on Thursday as investors viewed political infighting as likely to impede Cavallo's latest policy moves.
Sources said the U.S. administration is watching the situation closely and was to hold a top-level conference call among the various U.S. government agencies dealing with Argentina later on Thursday.There may also be daily conference calls about the emerging markets situation in general, they added. Earlier on Thursday, National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice said that the United States was keeping a close eye on Argentina's financial crisis, adding that other countries besides the United States could be part of a solution. "We're following the situation in Argentina quite closely," she told a National Press Club luncheon. "It is a matter of concern. It is not, however, a matter on which we do not have a partnership with others."
Markets are watching how the United States will deal with the latest round of market jitters in Argentina which on Thursday sent local stocks tumbling more than 8 percent and saw spreads between Argentine bonds and U.S. Treasuries spike. The economic team in the new administration, led by Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, has been vocal in its criticism of the large bailout packages put together by previous administrations.
But so far this year, faced with crises in Argentina and Turkey, the Bush team has thrown its weight behind multibillion dollar aid packages for both countries making it difficult to work out exactly where it stands on bailouts.In April, when Turkey was in a tight spot, the United States supported a fresh $10 billion aid package through the IMF and World Bank, in addition to funds already approved.
U.S. officials made clear at the time that they no longer believed the United States should be involved in bilateral aid packages such as one given to Mexico in 1995 and help offered Brazil in 1998. "In general we should not become engaged in bilateral assistance on top of, or in lieu of, appropriate intervention by the IMF," O'Neill said last month. But the current decision to leave Argentina to work out its problems without further financial assistance seems to reflect O'Neill's toughest stance on the subject yet. In the June speech, he said intervening to help countries in difficulty whenever there is fear of spillover to other economies promotes the idea that the United States will always be there to help out.
"Exaggerating the possibility of contagion leads to too-frequent intervention because, in effect, we convince ourselves we don't have a choice," O'Neill said. "Making money available on this theory, we promote the idea that we will intervene everywhere on the spur of the moment in order to protect ourselves against the consequences of one nation losing its financial footing."
SteveH
(07/13/01; 03:11:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 58016)
Someone sent me this information
passthrough--
China's State Development Planning Commission (SDPC) announced that it is lifting price controls on all but 13 categories of goods and services, the Dow Jones (DJ) reports.
"The price management function of the SDPC will move its focus from pricing to setting rules and acting as judge," Vice Minister Wang Yan of the SDPC said.
The SDPC, he added, will work to ensure that local government, will develop regulations to help combat price cartels and product dumping.
According to the DJ report, Wang told reporters that there will be no significant impact on the current trend of prices and that analysts and traders expect virtually no market impact. The planners' announcement, Wang said, was largely symbolic and helps China prepare
for World Trade Organization membership, which is expected by the end of the year.
Among the items liberalized by the July 11 announcement, including sugar, silk, natural rubber, pure gold jewelry, coal used for power generation, tea for sale in border areas, raw materials for producing farm-use plastic film and rooms at guesthouses run by the central government.
In the case of gold jewelry, though China had already started letting shops buy and sell jewelry independent of the central bank last year, the latest move does advance China's plan to gradually end the central bank's monopoly on all the gold produced in China. The DJ noted that China is expected to set up its first communist-era gold market in Shanghai within the next few months.
In total, China has now lifted prices controls on 107 categories of foods and services since 1992.
ORO
(07/13/01; 03:08:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 58015)
goldfan - the democratization of corruption
You might remember that post of a few weeks ago where I discussed violence and volition. I indicated that the ability of violence to obtain a return induces the expansion of the violent class, the contraction of the producing class, and the establishment of a hidden economy (if possible).
Thus there tends to be a process of democratization of violence - and of the benefits arizing to its practitioners - the category of human action we call corruption when practiced by government officials and their cronies, and crime when performed without benefit of government sanction. The necessary result of the practice of violence is the expansion of the class using it, the contraction of the class suffering it, and a great reduction in the returns arising from it as the host population grows thin and reduces in number while the parasites expand.
Contrary to the case with foxes and rabbits, humans don't often end with the collapse of the "fox" population and the rebound of the "rabbit" population (e.g. the collapse of the Western Roman Empire), but with the lead "foxes" themselves cutting deals with some "rabbits" to reduce their proportion of off-take in return for the "rabbits" not hiding or in return for these foxes helping the rabbits hide from the other foxes.
Thus the Soviet Union government survived by assistance from its would be Western enemies while internally the benefits to the central communist hierarchy from control of the economy were gradually shared more broadly "down the ladder" and the characteristic Soviet era joke of "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" became the cover for an actual Soviet underground economy that produced consumer goods and bootleg capital equipment from the stuff stolen by those "pretending to work", for a kick back to "those who pretend to pay". Immigrants from the 70s and early 80s Soviet Union that I hung out with were completely entrepreneurial, looking constantly for some way to turn a buck, respectful of private property, and utter thieves when it came to public property and sometimes when it came to private property mistaken for public property. I was treated to an endless supply of pilfered paper, toilet tissue, hotel furnishings, light bulbs, and food. I never had a single thing stolen from me.
The result of any corrupt regime (note above definition of corruption) is that it self destructs. It either does so by over-expansion that leads to economic collapse, or does so by reversing itself "before it is too late". The alternative is a semi stable coexistence with a "black market" into which most economic activity migrates, slowly swallowing the rank and file of the violence structure. The central powers then either join it, or reduce their take (tax rate) in return for "officializing" part or all of the "black market".
Overall, it is clear that violence is a negative sum game. Therefore, the market participants, whether violent "powers that be" or not, will always move towards avoiding it. The parasites by protecting their hosts from other parasites, the hosts by making themselves invisible to the parasites. If the parasite class is successful in maintaining its ranks closed and its control sufficiently complete, then they and their hosts survive in a slowly contracting economy that eventually falls into miserable failure. Following this, the power elite either reforms or is turned out by a rare revolt of the hosts, or by a more common revolt by the rank and file of the parasite class.
So, getting back to your question, political schemes backfire because markets find a way around them and "subverts" the political scheme, often with the participation of its authors, or else destroys both the market place and the parasitical political class that wants to suck its blood, which suddenly dries out.
On the matter of gambling and the profit motive, we should take into consideration that a profit is always in the future, and thus uncertain since the future is not fully predictable. Furthermore, the crowded trade rule applies, as does the 20 80 rule. Thus a particular common expectation of the future will result in the market preparing for the event, the product, or the process. Experts, making judgments based on the past trends they have available for study will inevitably cause the markets to err in one direction. The practice of academic peer review just reinforces the trend of fashionable expectations and induces further error and more bias. Thus 80% of the market will be wrong - either underestimating or over-estimating - and thus either over-building or underbuilding. Only during the momentum phase of a trend, when things are becoming obvious to more and more people, is the majority view actually a possible temporary outcome. The end of a trend sees unanimous consensus and the requisite and inevitable "crowded trade".
Here, a difference should be pointed out between a free gold and silver based trade system and a pure fiat credit system: while in the gold system savings largely precede investment because of the liquidity constraint imposed by available gold quantities, in the fiat money system the investment largely precedes the savings, which are induced after the fact of the investment by changing prices - upwards if under-invested, downwards (or less upwards) if over-invested.
As to the growth of speculative monetary flows, they have much more to do with much lower transaction costs (thanks to computers and optical networking) than because of a particular rise in speculative fever. The lower transaction costs make possible arbitrage of very small price disparities, and make possible on-the-fly re-allocation of portfolios as market values change in order to maintain the investment strategy.
A well known curve (to chemical engineers at least) appears in Perry's Hanbook regarding executive decision-making. It shows the discount or premium to pure statistical valuations of a profit that an executive would allocate. Thus, a 10% chance for a 10 fold profit and a 100% chance for even money are discounted very differently though they are completely equal in statistical value. The higher profit potential dictates a premium valuation by some 30%, or more. Chemical engineers are supposed to prepare their presentations so that the executive's natural bias is discounted and he/she comes to the statistically correct decision. Unless one is willing to risk their own neck in order to see the executive removed for his errors.
SteveH
(07/13/01; 03:05:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 58014)
ORO
In furtherance to the below. So, your feeling is that FOA represents a faction favoring the Euro to the detriment of the dollar and that no matter his good or evil intentions, the Euro is not yet ready for prime time reserve status and any impetus to make it so with gold as a catalyst, will be to the detriment of us all in the short term and perhaps longer. Exactly why would that be, anyway?
SteveH
(07/13/01; 02:58:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 58013)
ORO
To rephrase, the Asians have paid down much if not all their US dollar debt. When this demand for dollars is finally complete, the US needs to raise interest rates. Otherwise, the deflationary spiral that could ensue will ensue. In the meantime, some folks in Japan and Europe have positioned themselves with lots of physical gold and created a Euro-trap that when sprung will reevaluate gold higher thus strengthening the Euro and devaluing the dollar. In so doing, the Euro, intended to be the new Reserve Currency, may set of an American inflationary period of unintended consequences. Of course, we have the chaos issue in which some event or events not considered above may in fact trigger an even entirely different outcome. But I believe the whole issue is really one of monetary credibility and too many dollors ultimately chasing too little oil and too little commodities which are for some reason or the other being knocked down incessantly in price as long as the dollar is king. Do I have this about right?
SteveH
(07/13/01; 02:40:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 58012)
Roadrunner and the wolf
Yes it is true that the roadrunner (being a bird) would run across a chasm airborn. On his tail (so to speak) was the wolf in or on or propelled by some gadget, usually dangerous, that would peter out at absolutely the wrong time, often leaving the wolf hanging in mid-air momentarily while we watched him conteplate his predicament. When we saw him recognize his position and make a decision to reverse it, gravity would then take hold and the wolf would fall precipitously to the ground whereupon he would smack hard with a bang and lots of dust and ground cracks. He would then pull himself out of the ground with a cross-eyed look. Next, the roadrunner would appear, stop just long enough to "beep-beep" at the wolf, who, if he had been in better shape at the moment, could have grabbed the bird. But, the roadrunner never let's the wolf think about that and wooshes off in a cloud of dust and beep-beeps.
The wolf never died, but never succeeded in catching the roadrunner.
The roadrunner never got caught and as far as I know, never got hurt.
A real cat and mouse game where the stakes were never so high as to cause real danger, an escape from reality in which the cost of error is certainly up to and including death sometimes. And, perhaps there is an economic lesson here. Cheers.
Netking
(07/13/01; 02:16:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 58011)
FOA
The following remark (below) on FOA was copied from the other place. He is appreciated all over the world of gold yes.
----------------------------------------------------------
lharrison - Jul 13, 00:48
FOA offers some of best on the trail.
ORO
(07/13/01; 02:15:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 58010)
Econoclast - Deflation and inflation
Econoclast, you are right on track. My quantitative work indicates 20 years of deflationary pressure within the US credit markets and an extreme deflation during the early 1980s and late 1990s in the foreign dollar credit markets. By the end of this year, Asian borrowers will have PAID DOWN nearly $2 trillion dollars of debt by export to dollar creditor countries in Europe and Japan, and by exporting to dollar producer America. The reason for the trade deficit is much more a deflationary pull for dollars from abroad than it is an inflationary push from within.
Even within the US, the Fed has maintained a much lower credit expansion rate than required to generate the new cash that would cover the interest due on outstanding domestic debt. Usually, the deficit stands at about 1.5% of outstanding debt levels. The two rather short but significant periods of domestic excess (and a mild one at that, by historical standards) was in 1986, which led to the stock boom and bust of 87, and the 1998-9 period which led to the 99-2000 tech stock boom, and subsequent crash. Since the supply demand balance domestically is negative, and the deflationary foreign pull has made it that much more negative (the dollars coming back from abroad do not relieve the domestic problems because contrary to economist's consensus, the national accounts can't balance and only 1/3 of the outgoing trade deficit dollars come back), the debt shark is devouring debtors at roughly that 1.5% (at times 3%) rate.
Since that is the case, and because domestic debt repayment demand falls by the whole amount of the defaulted loan in its entirety, the result is a drop of dollar demand roughly corresponding to the default rate and thus adds to price inflation. You may remember my old argument that price inflation in a pure fiat currency occurs as debt expands and as it contracts. The prices of liquidated security for the defaulted loans (homes, cars, commercial inventories, commercial real estate, and industrial equipment and facillities) are prevented from rising as much as they otherwise would have because of this liquidation effect. Some evidence for this is apparent in the steady decline in the premium of existing homes over newly built replacement homes ("replacement value") from 36% AFTER the 89-92 real estate crash, to 24% or so today.
If you take the M values (NSA) then M1, where all Fed adds come in, is only 1% over where it was same time last year, and is even lower than it was way back in 1993!. M3, though growing at high rates sometimes in the double digits, has provided only a minor replacement for the slowdown in credit market securities issue rates, now at 91 recession levels of 4-4.5%, leaving the overall debt expansion rate at below the historical 7% rate of most of this decade (6% in Apr, 6.5% in May).
So the Fed is undercutting market rates in order to stop the deflation and in order to maintain the dollar's purchasing power abroad, where central banks threaten to unload treasury paper if it does not. The Asian dollar debt demand will soon fall as remaining balances are minor and the temporary one time boost to dollar demand from higher oil prices has already receded. If the Fed does not increase rates rapidly as the Asian dollar debt deflation ends, then the dollar exports will shoot down the dollar when that one extra dollar hits the market. Latin debt deflation is not as intense as it was in prior cycles and in the Asian cycle, and the extra $250 billion of dollar demand from possible black market Euro converting into dollars Senholz talks about are coming to an end as well.
Furthermore, I want to stress that the whole of the dollar credit inflation abroad since 1994, and much of that in the US, is a result of Japanese and EU central bank errors. The foreign dollar credit expansions prior to this (since the early 80s) were also mostly Japanese and EU creations.
Contrary to FOA's thinking of the "inflating digital fiat currency" as mystifying to economists of the hard money persuasions, we are entirely aware of the mechanisms that kept the dollar afloat, particularly politically motivated central bank collection of Treasuries, and the international debt trap dynamics, as well as the gold credit expansion and the market's transition from discounting above ground gold stocks to discounting both gold stock and gold reserves once the USSR fell apart, thus removing most of the need to actually have the gold in hand (a mitigator of POLITICAL risk rather than economic risk, which can be partially offset with claims on future deliveries from underground reserves). Of course, FOA and Another told us that there is a political movement to destroy the market's current preference to count ACTUAL PRODUCEABLE GOLD still in the ground by a conspiracy of gold holding thugs with political connections negotiating with governments to eliminate mine supply, ARTIFICIALLY shoot up the price of gold, and replace a bad international monetary system with a much worse one which has physical gold holders of substantial size as the sole beneficiaries. It will not be a "gold market as before" it will be an intentional economic disaster for the whole of the world and will lead to results far different than expected.
Artie Farkle
(07/13/01; 02:06:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 58009)
Randy@The Tower
I thought this summed it up pretty good.
(REPOST)
Artie Farkle (7/11/01; 02:43:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57874)
ESSENCE OF MONEY
What is the essence of money? Everyone has their own view as to the definition of money. It seems it can be almost any thing. It can be wealth but, not necessarily. Although the definitions may change and, the values of those things defined as money may change, the essence should not.
The essence seems to be "A marker of value that is redly recognizable, transferable and, accepted by others." IMHO : )
Even the value of gold changes. I seem to recal reading that when Spain imported all of that gold from the New World, gold was valued less/lower price/procured fewer goods for a given amount of gold.
Netking
(07/13/01; 02:00:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 58008)
The USD & Gold . . . .
The ability of the U.S. economy to defy both financial prudence and economic rationality is based on the fact that the U.S. Dollar is the world's SOLE reserve currency. Until the end of 1998, there was no other contender for this title. Now, with the advent of the Euro at the beginning of 1999, a currency specifically designed to create a "United States - Of Europe", there is.
How has the U.S. reacted to the birth of the Euro? In March 1999, through NATO, it instigated a (Balkans) WAR on European soil - the Euro fell. In the year between June 1999 and May 2000, the Fed INCREASED U.S. rates - the Euro fell. In late 2000, a U.S. Presidential election hung in the balance for over a month. The Euro stopped falling and recovered. In 2001, the Fed has been slashing U.S. rates while hurling increasingly strident demands at Europe that it inflate its currency to take some of the "strain" off the U.S. - the Euro fell again.
Now, according to the Wall Street Journal, a U.S. Treasury official has DEMANDED that Europe slash its rates and Japan begin to literally print money to "aid" in the efforts being made by the U.S. to "re-start global economic 'growth'". Why is the U.S. demanding this? Because the U.S. economy is TOTALLY dependent on foreign investment to "grow". If the Europeans and the Japanese don't inflate, there won't be enough foreign capital available to lend to the U.S. so that it can "grow". The stakes in THIS game are now extreme
The essence of the whole situation is that the U.S. is playing a gigantic game of financial "chicken" with the rest of the world in general, and with Europe and Japan in particular. In essence, they are saying this: "We are too big to fail, and if we fail, we'll take you all down with us".
Gold's place in all this is what Gold's place in all this has ALWAYS been. It is the alternative to a global "money" which is given "value" by fiat and which is given "acceptance" by the raw power of its purveyor - the United States. As long as physical Gold literally exists, it will act as the ultimate "brake" on the profligacy of debt-based financial systems.
What we face is simply a matter of facing facts, and of exercising patience. The present financial trajectory which the U.S. is on is absolutely UNSUSTAINABLE. It cannot last. Unless and/or until the Euro becomes a currency which is officially REDEEMABLE in Gold, there will be no other protection against a U.S. Dollar swan dive except Gold (and Silver). Right now, Gold forms 15% of the official reserves behind the Euro, but the Euro is NOT redeemable in Gold. The U.S. has long since declared Gold as financial public enemy NUMBER ONE. There is no official connection between the U.S. Dollar and Gold at all.
The U.S. is now in a position in which it has to hold Gold down "forever", or see its position as the purveyor of the world's sole reserve currency come to an end. This will prove an impossible task, all that remains to be seen is how much MORE damage is done in the process.
Netking
(07/13/01; 01:51:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 58007)
Israelis consider a military invasion of the West Bank and Gaza to crush Arafat
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/194/world/Israelis_consider_a_military_i:.shtml
. . . after months of violence, Israelis are now openly debating the possibility of a military invasion of the West Bank and Gaza aimed at crushing the Palestinian Authority and ending the rule of Yasser Arafat.
Military and political officials confirm the army has readied plans for stepping up the use of force but the cost in lives and the possibility of a wider regional conflict clearly are giving the government pause in going all-out.
"The army has plans to cover all the possibilities, but what counts is the Cabinet decisions," said Raanan Gissin, spokesman of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
TEX
(07/13/01; 01:26:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 58006)
Solomon Weaver (#58003) - Resurfacing for a moment
How ironic as I pulled out a few of my favorite coins to look them over after a long time (almost a year) out of the sunlight....and then, just before hitting the sack I check the postings and see your message! You are correct and I plan to keep plugging away for a long time. For some reason, I find it quite enjoyable sitting around and just holding those pieces of yellow metal. Guess I've been bitten buy (yes, that's a pun) the gold bug and am completely infected with a passion for the shiny yellow stuff. Gotta get beneath the surface as I don't want to come out of lurking too long. See you next month!
Adios Amigo!
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