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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 2/13/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Iceman (2/13/2001; 23:40:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48215)
I need some input on the subject of the last five years being a fake economy.
I have heard about the leakage of the news about the last five years being a fake economy under the Clinton administration to give him a legacy to live by, the selling of sections of national forests to other countries for money, and something about the London gold sales. And also about the selling of nuclear secrets to like China. Is there anybody who can elaborate on these subjects for info?

Dollar Bill (2/13/2001; 22:07:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 48214)
ORO
Hello to one of those I look to read.
Would you take whatever time you need, to review the basis of your idea that underpins the whole forum here.
The idea you mentioned yesterday again.
The idea that freeing the price of gold is better done sooner rather than later.
The implication being that consequences would be lessened.

How is a transition possible.
The financial instruments of today have us in a situation where there is no turning back. (it would appear)
The present system and evolution of societies have some hopeful trends. A reversion to gold would entail a collapse of the present financial system and all the suffering it would cause.
Bill Murphy, in defense of his actions, in emails, can only muster up the idea you support that sooner rather than later makes some kind of sense. He cannot back that up with any understanding of what that means however. It is one thing to engage in a forum of discussion, it is another to embark on a crusade without knowing what you are really doing.
Someone named "questions" posted 3 good questions earlier on the forum. But I think this is the real area that needs a review. How can Murphy stop himself without a hand from you.

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 21:59:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 48213)
How to complain effectively!
http://www-csag.cs.uiuc.edu/individual/pakin/complaint
In case anyone was wondering how to crank out verbiage.

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 21:56:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 48212)
Still just trying to get it right!
My complaint about Chairman Alan Greenspan

In response to Chairman Alan Greenspan's newsgroup postings, I would like to offer the following opposing points. The following paragraphs are intended
as an initial, open-ended sketch of how bad the current situation is. You can sum up his methods of interpretation in one word: irrational.

When he was first found trying to keep us hypnotized so we don't challenge him to defend his witticisms or else to change them, I was scared. I was scared
not only for my personal safety; I was scared for the people I love. And now that Greenspan is planning to conspire with evil, I'm downright terrified. But
this is something to be filed away for future letters. At present, I wish to focus on only one thing: the fact that if you intend to challenge someone's
assertions, you need to present a counterargument. He provides none. Greenspan should hide his head in shame before the judgment of future generations,
whose tongue it will no longer be possible to stop and which, therefore, will say what today all of us know to be true: I myself have one itsy-bitsy problem
with Greenspan's musings. Namely, they leave a generation of people planted in the mud of a grungy world, to begin a new life in the shadows of
negativism. And that's saying nothing about how he should learn to appreciate what he has instead of feeling so oppressed because he can't do everything
he wants, every time he wants to. If he can't be reasoned out of his prejudices, he must be laughed out of them. If he can't be argued out of his selfishness,
he must be shamed out of it. Okay, I admit that it's because of Greenspan's willingness to prevaricate and equivocate that he thinks nothing of violating the
spirit of an indigenous people whose art and songs and way of life are proof that this is not the first time we've had trouble with avaricious warmongers, and
it won't be the last. But I am aware that many people may object to the severity of my language. But is there no cause for severity? Naturally, I believe that
there is, because if I try really, really hard, I can almost see why he would want to scapegoat easy, unpopular targets, thereby diverting responsibility from
more culpable parties. Many the things I've talked about in this letter are obvious. We all know they're true. But still it's necessary for us to say them,
because Chairman Alan Greenspan's shell games are as troubling as his insistence that he would sooner give up money, fame, power, and happiness than
perform a brainless act.

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 21:53:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 48211)
Another point of view!
My complaint about Chairman Alan Greenspan

After hearing Chairman Alan Greenspan say that the most valuable skill one can have is to be able to lie convincingly, I felt that
someone needed to write a dissenting opinion. For practical reasons, I have to confine my discussion to areas that have received
insufficient public attention or in which I have something new to say. There are no two ways about it; he has found a way to avoid
compliance with government regulations, circumvent any further litigation, and place appalling firebrands at the top of the social
hierarchy -- all by trumping up a phony emergency. If one dares to criticize even a single tenet of his values, one is promptly
condemned as unctuous, abhorrent, capricious, or whatever epithet he deems most appropriate, usually without much explanation.
Although Greenspan has unfairly depicted me and those who share my beliefs as pop psychologists and heretics, we are neither. Yes,
he has become increasingly simple-minded ever since childhood, but every time Greenspan tries, he gets increasingly successful in
his attempts to demonize my family and friends. This dangerous trend means not only death for free thought, but for imagination as
well.

This much is clear: We must remove our chains and move towards the light. (In case you didn't understand that analogy, the chains
symbolize Greenspan's dodgy demands, and the light represents the goal of getting all of us to build a world overflowing with
compassion and tolerance.) This is a stark reality that no impartial analyst can choose to ignore, so to speak. If Greenspan can give
us all a succinct and infallible argument proving that his protests are not worth getting outraged about, I will personally deliver his
Nobel Prize for Deplorable Rhetoric. In the meantime, one of the great mysteries of modern life is, Why doesn't Greenspan try doing
something constructive for once in his life? The complete answer to that question is a long, sad story. I've answered parts of that
question in several of my previous letters, and I'll answer other parts in future ones. For now, I'll just say that Greenspan intends to
create a new social class. Childish practitioners of revanchism, cocky insincere slaves to fashion, and unrestrained freaks will be
given aristocratic status. The rest of us will be forced into serving as their death squads. It seems to me that Greenspan is both
prudish and blockish. Now there's a dangerous combination if I've ever seen one.

He has a taste for interminable controversy over minor questions. This implies that I frequently talk about how it is irresponsible to
accept everything at face value. I would drop the subject, except that his most progressive idea is to lower scholastic standards. If that
sounds progressive to you, you must be facing the wrong way. Perhaps we are at a crossroads, but remember that his editorials are
rife with contradictions and difficulties; they're totally incompetent, meet no objective criteria, and are unsuited for a supposedly
educated population. And as if that weren't enough, he is stepping over the line when he attempts to threaten the existence of human
life, perhaps all life on the planet, -- way over the line. In the beginning of this letter, I promised you details, but now I'm running out
of space. So here's one detail to end with: Chairman Alan Greenspan's jibes are often disregarded merely as subversive and are
consequently not treated as the serious assaults on liberty and freedom that they surely are.

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 21:52:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 48210)
Still telling it like it is!
My other complaint about Chairman Alan Greenspan

I have facts for those who think and arguments for those who reason. I guess I should start by saying that Chairman Alan Greenspan maintains that he has
mystical powers of divination and prophecy. This is hardly the case. Rather, there is growing evidence that says, to the contrary, that this hasn't sat well with
foul-mouthed slimy nabobs of collectivism. Of that I am certain, because I have a tendency to report the more sensational things that he is up to, the more
shocking things, things like how he wants to lead to the destruction of the human race. And I realize the difficulty that the average person has in coming to
grips with that, but every time he gets caught trying to mold your mind and have you see the world not as it is, but as he wants you to see it, he promises he'll
never do so again. Subsequently, his grunts always jump in and explain that he really shouldn't be blamed even if he does, because, as they think, the laws of
nature don't apply to him. I have to laugh when Greenspan says that propagandism can quell the hatred and disorder in our society. Where in the world did
he get that idea? Not only does that idea contain absolutely no substance whatsoever, but all of the bad things that are currently going on are a symptom of
his anal-retentive jejune philippics. They are not a cause; they are an effect.

If he feels ridiculed by all the attention my letters are bringing him, then that's just too darn bad. Greenspan's arrogance has brought this upon himself.
Although it's easy to sit in the press box and criticize, the first lies that Greenspan told us were relatively benign. Still, they have been progressing. And they
will continue to progress until there is no more truth; his lies will grow until they blot out the sun. To most people, the list of his mudslinging positions
reads like a comic strip, but Greenspan's biases are actually taken seriously by his apostles. Contrary to the Rousseauian ideal of the transparency of the
general will to itself, he possesses no significant intellectual skills whatsoever and has no interest in erudition. Heck, he can't even spell or define "erudition,"
much less achieve it.

If Greenspan can one day give rise to the most gloomy misogynists you'll ever see, then the long descent into night is sure to follow. I do not wish to
endorse vigilantism, but rather to illustrate that some of us have an opportunity to come in contact with naive lunatics on a regular basis at work or in school.
We, therefore, may be able to gain some insight into the way they think, into their values; we may be able to understand why they want to glorify doctrinaire
huffy-types. Even if our society had no social problems at all, we could still say that Greenspan asserts that honor counts for nothing. That assertion is not
only untrue, but a conscious lie. I have this advice to offer: The world has changed, Greenspan; get used to it. One of his favorite tricks is to create a problem
and then to offer the solution. Naturally, it's always his solutions that grant him the freedom to remove society's moral barriers and allow perversion to
prosper, never the original problem. Okay, I've written enough for one letter, so let me just finish by saying that it is not my goal to damn this nation and this
world to Hell, but the opposite.

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 21:50:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 48209)
Telling it like it is!!
My complaint about Chairman Alan Greenspan

Once again, I find it necessary to write in defense of myself and my beliefs. Let me begin by citing a range of examples from the public
sphere. For starters, Chairman Alan Greenspan's ploys are not an abstract problem. They have very concrete, immediate, and unpleasant
consequences. For instance, the last time I told Greenspan's vassals that I want to shatter the adage that it's okay for Greenspan to indulge
his every whim and lust without regard for anyone else or for society as a whole, they declared in response, "But Greenspan's prophecies
enhance performance standards, productivity, and competitiveness." Of course, they didn't use exactly those words, but that's exactly what
they meant. Each rung on the ladder of sadism is a crisis of some kind. Each crisis supplies an excuse for him to use both overt and covert
deceptions to burn our fair cities to the ground. That is the standard process by which hostile dweebs limit the terms of debate by declaring
certain subjects beyond discussion.

Note that the foregoing does not pretend to be an accurate description of all people who might be considered rancorous delinquents. It is
only a rough indication of some of Greenspan's general tendencies. As I remove the veil of ignorance I have lived behind, I find that the
question that's on everyone's mind these days is, "To what depths of depravity does Greenspan need to descend before the rest of us realize
we must introduce an important, but underrepresented, angle on his mephitic personal attacks?" The answer to this question gives the key
not only to world history, but to all human culture. He thinks that we should abandon the institutionalized and revered concept of
democracy. Of course, thinking so doesn't make it so.

The biggest difference between me and Greenspan is that Greenspan wants to promote the sort of behavior that would have made the folks
in Sodom and Gomorrah blush. I, on the other hand, want to tell it like it is. Unpleasant complacent freebooters may endanger our property
or our security or our economic well-being, but Greenspan endangers our souls. Anyone who takes even a cursory glance at this letter will
quickly discover that he is begging the question when he says that those of us who oppose him would rather run than fight. That said, let
me continue. He doesn't use words for communication or for exchanging information. He uses them to disarm, to hypnotize, to mislead,
and to deceive. I repeat: Greenspan ignores a breathtaking number of facts, most notably:

Fact: Greenspan has let his lofty-yet-foul views cloud his sense of taste and reality.

Fact: Greenspan's whinges are propaganda to the point of comedy and are so easily refuted as to render them useless even as such.

Fact: This is neither a document written in anger nor something I am being paid to write.

In addition, Greenspan should work with us, not step in at the eleventh hour and hog all the glory. One last thing: The general public is
finally starting to become aware of Chairman Alan Greenspan's duplicity and complicity.

Chris Powell (2/13/2001; 21:20:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48208)
In reply to Trail Guide, a defense of GATA
Dear Trail Guide:

Since I long have looked forward to your comments,
it is a delight to have a direct exchange with you. Let
me join the list of those who are grateful for your
efforts here.

Still, I hope you will forgive me for perhaps not fully
understanding what seems to me your criticism of the Gold
Anti-Trust Action Committee, since I have not seen any
great difference between the interests of GATA and the
interests of physical gold advocates.

In regard to the catastrophic and unusual performance
of gold investments in the last decade, you ask: "Did
someone change the rules, or were the rules just never
fully understood?"

GATA argues that the problem is not that the rules
were changed, nor that they were not fully understood,
but that they were BROKEN.

We may agree that real metal is better than paper. (I
hope we agree that the generous proprietor of this
forum is an excellent source of the former.) We may
even deride those who have found themselves on the
wrong end of speculation in gold paper. Certainly
GATA has done as much as anyone to expose and
explain the gold derivatives racket.

But then what of people who invested honestly both
in gold paper and in mining companies under the
misapprehension that the ordinary rules would be
followed and that there was a free market in gold, the
free market that their governments told them there
was?

What of those who invested in gold or anything else
in recent years under the misapprehension that the
economic policy of the United States and other
democracies was PUBLIC policy, not private policy
shared with a few connected financial firms so that
they might profit at the expense of others?

Such people can hardly rejoice in the ability to buy
gold at ever-lower prices, even if they might
recognize now that buying metal rather than paper can
help thwart the manipulators.

GATA is not "asking the mines to slow down." We
have not advocated a strike by miners in South Africa
or anywhere else. That would be like saying, "Let's
you and him fight," and it would risk great suffering
for those who already have suffered so much. To the
contrary, GATA has sought to unite the gold community
in support of itself and gold. We are seeking to stop
the surreptitious manipulation of the gold price.

You criticize the "Western" attitude about gold and
gold paper. But GATA hardly can be faulted for that.
Part of GATA's charter is to help restore gold's
traditional monetary function as the measure of
government currencies, and we in GATA have written
and spoken often of the mining industry's failure to
understand its own product -- failure to understand
that jewelry is the least of it, failure to understand
that the product is an independent form of money that
competes with all other forms and thus from time to
time may be the enemy of the issuers of other
currencies.

But we in GATA believe that we have far more redress
than buying metal alone -- and that the gold cause
requires exercising that redress.

Indeed, given their access to government gold
reserves and to secret government insurance for gold
derivatives, the manipulators might be able to
suppress the gold price and expropriate gold
producers, inducing them to sell at or below cost,
almost indefinitely unless the manipulators are
exposed and held to account in court. After all,
consider the gap between gold demand and supply; by
all accounts it is huge because physical demand is so
much greater than production. That is, the explosion
in gold derivatives has not suppressed demand; by
lowering the price, gold derivatives have raised
demand. But even mighty exertions on "the physical
side of this" have yet to break the manipulators.

The "physical side," big as it is, still seems to need a
lot of help, and that's where GATA seeks to come in.

Trail Guide, you write: "'Free markets,' the paper
traders claim, sitting on both sides of the fence. 'Free
markets are what we seek -- as long as they trade our
way.'" If that is a suggestion of hypocrisy on GATA's
part, I think it is undeserved. GATA has sought no
favors for gold and gold share investors, and the people
GATA seeks to represent have been hurt by enough
surreptitious government intervention in markets. We
don't believe in letting this racket go on forever;
we're going to do what we can to stop it. Are we wrong to?

With good wishes as always,

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

-END-

JMB (2/13/2001; 21:08:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48207)
MR. Gresham
History does seem to repeat itself. Murray Rothbard deals with Paul Warburg very nicely in his America's Great Depression. Rothbard points out that 'acceptance money' was over half of all the new money created by the Fed throughout the 1920s. Now, as FARFEL would say, fade to 1720 (or so) and John Locke.

The French decided to lever up their position in the Mississippi Bubble and started buying Locke's new derivatives. In some cases the stock was sold to make the shift. Support for the stock was lost, the Bubble ended, and French learned the importance of money backed by Gold.

Back to the present.

Instead of Paul Warburg's Banker's Acceptances, we have Allan Greenspan's Securitized GSE Bundled Loans which the Fed will now use in their Repo actions. And instead of John Locke and his derivatives, we have Goldman Sachs and J P Morgan/Chase Whatever.

We are certain to exceed the 1920s massive expansion of the money supply by astounding amounts before this maddness ends, and the voters will love it initially, because on balance, they're in debt. Ah, but then, history teaches us, the natural resources seem to vanish...hunger and chilly weather tends to make the strongest of people act in a very uncivilized way. I'm not so sure our Gold will save us from what's coming....but it's sure worth a shot.

slingshot (2/13/2001; 21:02:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 48206)
SHIFTY
Angus
Got a closeup of Angus at that site.

Had a good laugh. Thanks
Slingshot

beesting (2/13/2001; 21:02:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 48205)
Hi SL&TT # 48186....and it's almost Tax Time!
Ref: beesting # 48182.((using Gold as Money))
Sir, glad you liked my post.
I wonder if anyone has tried this, and I would only advise someone who doesn't show ownership of anything to try it.

When the IRS comes after you for taxes this year offer to pay in Gold and Silver coin citing Section 10 Article I of the U.S. Constitution:((Refuse to Pay in Federal Reserve Notes))

Sec 10:
"Make anything but Gold and Silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts!"

If they don't accept your offered coin payment show them the Constitution and force them to eventually put a lien on your coins.

Of course the court case would probably drag on for years, but the concept would force the Government(IRS is part of the Treasury)to either accept Gold and Silver coin or change the Constitution. Also, with someone like Sir Farfel(just kidding) as your publicity agent the whole world would hear about using Gold as money, in a positive way.

If the Government decides to accept or reposess the coins it opens the door for everyone to use Gold & Silver or a form (digital?) of Gold and Silver in everyday commerce.
Thereby in the long run putting much more Gold into use, and yes dollar prices of Gold would have to go up(supply & demand of Gold)....$30,000 per ounce....I don't know,,,but it's pleasent thought to day dream about.
Isn't that what many here want?(a higher price of Gold)
Those in the Know...Are Buying Gold....beesting.

SHIFTY (2/13/2001; 20:42:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 48204)
slingshot
http://movieweb.com/movie/mrmagoo/
Magoo the eighth blunder of the world.

When a stolen gem lands in the possession of bumbling millionaire Quincy Magoo (LESLIE NIELSEN), a sinister plot is hatched to steal it back. Perpetually the target of evil culprits, Magoo consistently manages to escape unharmed, totally oblivious to the dangers that surround him. Hunted by robbers and set up by a conniving female thief (KELLY LYNCH), Magoo ultimately nabs the real villains with the help of his nephew, Waldo (MATT KEESLAR), and HIS TRUSTY BULLDOG, Angus, and is hailed a hero, in Walt Disney Pictures' live-action family comedy, "Mr. Magoo."

Tree in the Forest (2/13/2001; 20:32:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 48203)
Randy
Did a little checking at the BOE site. The March auction is the last in the second series. The plan was to auction some 400+ tons but they have not announced any additional auction dates beyond March 2001. Also interesting is the fact that the payment for gold bought at these auctions is in US dollars delivered to the Fed Bank of NY. Very strange don't you think? Why would they want payments to the BOE made to another country's central bank in another country's currency? While at the BOE site I also found that they are auctioning Euro Bills. What's up with that? They aren't even part of the Euro system yet, are they? Curioser and curioser.

tedw (2/13/2001; 20:29:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 48202)
Questions
http://www.usagold.com
Questions for the knights of the round table:

1) What was the intention and motivation of the Central Banks to make the Washington Agreement?

2) What precipated the action?

3) Was the Washington Agreement sucesssful?

slingshot (2/13/2001; 19:43:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 48201)
Raspberry.
Hope to condense some of that patience back into hope. It appears we all are looking for that breakout in the market.
I am concentrating my search for a dynamic episode or evidence thereof to move the market. I do not think the
G.A.T.A lawsuit,Greenspan, Kalifornia or consumer confidence has the punch to do it. Like you, I try to analyze various information. Combined with some low tech research of my own
to come to a conclusion. I do not have all those fancy charts and graphs.
Whatever triggers the breakout of the market, it will give
no or little warning. IMHO, it will cascade, oil-stockmarket
- consumer- gold.
I still hold the WILD CARD From one of my past posts. May even get to play it with new players coming on to the world scene.
I agree with SLaTT that it is a good insurance policy.

One more thing to think about.

This is a politican's game in D.C.
Calculation of voter interest.

One call to office. 250 votes
One letter 500 votes

USA GOLD Internet

20 regular posters Keep up the good work.
100 jump-ins
2000 + lurkers

Who do you think they are going to call when it hits the fan and it really matters who you call! D.C.?

Hang in there Raspberry.

What was MR. Magoo's dogs name?
Slingshot

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 19:41:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 48200)
Tree...
I can neither verify whether you read it, nor whether such an offer was made (via the BIS presumably).

If it counts for anything, the participation in these autions is limited to CBs, BOE gold account holders, and LBMA members. (The BOE is effectively the "proud pappa" of the LBMA offspring.) It may also count for something that that England's own ChancExch Gordon Brown who was the primary pusher for IMF gold sales. Only shortly after those prospects were seen as being DOA did England offer to pony up gold via these uniquely structured auctions.

Outta here for now...
Randy

Tree in the Forest (2/13/2001; 19:31:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 48199)
Randy
Thank you for correcting me. I'm not sure where I read this but thanks for the info. I also read that before they started the auctions, an offer was made for the entire lot of gold at $280 and they turned it down. Can you verify this? TIA.

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 19:29:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 48198)
Previous post...
Perhaps "dictate" was not a good choice of words. Try some combination of "bring about" or "determine" as a consequence of market conditions and what these conditions warrant.

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 19:27:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 48197)
Orville Goldenbacher -- on the twice daily London Fix
Who you ask?

To keep this very brief, as that is all that time allows, the nature of the participants involved in the London Fix are commercially akin to those of the participants that dictate the daily fluctuation in the federal funds market.

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 19:19:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 48196)
Tree in the Forest (msg#: 48176) regarding Bank of England auctions...
"If ever there was a 'conspiracy', this was it and why not? The whole world had a vested interest in preventing a major market meltdown. These 'auctions' started 2 years ago I believe at the beginning of 1999 and are supposed to end shortly on March 15."
------------------
You might want to reverify your source of information. Contrary to ending in March, these auctions have only just passed the midpoint of the originally stated sale quantity.

Orville Goldenbacher (2/13/2001; 19:00:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 48195)
Trail Guide msg#48152
Trail Guide, said:

"For the record, I never have even for a moment considered some one world government. I also laugh at the notion of some great Cabal running the show. These shallow statements are the dream work of people that confuse social order with someone controlling their lives. Our world history is full of rules and laws enacted by various factions from the beginning. Face it, laws always infringe on some group as they yell big brother! We will never be without some segment being controlled for the society at large! It always the easy way out. Broadcast that some small bunch is profiting by ruling over us."

This statement just blows my mind, makes me wonder who YOU work for, no I really don't care. Sir, I mean no disrespect, but their is MUCH evidence to the contrary, you talk about shallow, just makes me wonder. Tell me, who do you think 'fixes' the price of gold twice each day? I know, i'm being shallow, good day, sir.

OG

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 18:50:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 48194)
Fleckenstein on Greenspan... The gasbag factor!
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/insight/contrarian/
http://www.siliconinvestor.com/insight/contrarian/

Obviously, if Greenspan didn't rely on Wall Street analysts for the justification of his forecast, and instead did some research, he might have a better grasp of what's happening. Unfortunately, Al doesn't even understand something even after he notes what's supposed to be occurring. In his testimony a year ago, he said:

"The question I was asking abstractly [in 1996] was how will we know when markets are gripped by "irrational exuberance," and I didn't have the answer on that particular point. I think I have an answer now -- in that it's very difficult to judge, except in retrospect. If any stock market. . . falls by 30 or 40 percent in a matter of weeks or a very few months, I will grant that there was a bubble back there."

Paul Volcker he ain't. . . Ladies and gentlemen, we had a 50-percent drop in the Nasdaq in a matter of months. Rather than recognize that, by his own definition, it's now safe to say that we've experienced a bubble and begin dealing with the inherent dangers it presents, Greenspan spent his entire speech talking about the miracles of productivity and how they caused all these wonderful things to happen, not even seeming to understand his prior comments. He is just one vapid gasbag, and all of us in America, and our children, are going to have to pay the price for his stupidity. Forewarned is forearmed. FLECKENSTEIN today!

I like the part of about "...just one vapid gasbag..."

Maybe that's why I never thought I had understand what he was talking about... much less what he said.

Peter Asher (2/13/2001; 18:39:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48193)
Journeyman're - Question of the day:

For the last 10 - 15 years or maybe longer, the market has been more concerned with the competition of interest rates then with the actual earnings and dividend potential of the stocks themselves.

AG's speech today was a bit of a surprise (and a bit unnerving in it's gibberish factor) as the herd expected a more negative view to be presented. The markets have been held aloft by the rate cut expectancy and so pulled back. All considered, not much of a drop.

Volume has been light of late; hopefully due to an abatement of in-and-out trading. However, if the input of buy-and-hold is abating, then this could be the calm before the storm.

PH in LA (2/13/2001; 18:32:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 48192)
Possible line of discussion for FOA
In his recent incisive and illuminating comments to Chris Powell and GATA, our beloved FOA/Trail Guide has tipped his hand again. His remarks betray a focus and expertise that are always implicit in his posting here and elsewhere. The guy is obviously an expert! Exactly why he chooses to spend his time among us is not always clear, but it is always appreciated.

Which brings to mind a remark that he once made to the effect that "the eventual establishment of a freely-traded physical gold market is written into many contracts and assumptions underlying the establishment of the Euro as a currency". (Please don't anyone hold me to the exact wording of his statement... I'm relying on memory here.) In light of FOA's and Another's obvious expertise in these matters, it would seem to me a very productive and enlightening thread of thought to pursue, if we could persuade FOA to elaborate as to exactly what he meant by his referral to such contracts; exactly how they are worded; exactly who is involved (such as which goverments, CBs, oil producers, and/or individuals) and how the current situation fits into such an establishment of a true physical market, since many of us have all but given up on ever seeing the present system release its death-hold on POG without a new price discovery system to replace the paper-based monster that we currently enjoy. (ORO just might know more than he has so far talked about this sort of thing, also.)

Of late, we hear rumblings out of China about the early establishment of a physically traded gold market coming in June. Are these tremblings part of the picture that FOA alludes to about the establishment of a physically-traded gold market in Euros?

Is it still too early for you to be more specific about the existing clauses in those contracts that you mentioned before, FOA?

Tree in the Forest (2/13/2001; 18:12:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 48191)
Megatron
Sir Megatron, I am not sure that I am correct however the 2 half point cuts that everyone thought was about the stock market, was, I think, about saving the banks which I believe are having severe liquidity problems and are in need of being bailed out. Now as I say, I am not sure that I am correct, however if I am and he was bailing out the banks, do you think he would say so? What could he say? "Oh yeah, our entire banking system was on the verge of collapse so...". With people already reading more into what he says than they should, I am sure he really would rather say nothing at this point but he can hardly tell Congress to take a hike. By dropping the rates at which banks borrow from the Fed, banks can achieve a greater spread on their loans, and get some breathing space. I don't think he'd say a word about it so what can you say? That he's a bad liar? I'll give you that. And if it makes you fell any better, he does look a little like Mr. Magoo. <grin>

Shermag (2/13/2001; 18:05:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 48190)
Journeyman: Your QUESTION OF THE DAY
"What reason might Austrian economists give
for the drop in the stock markets after Greenspan's speech."

I can only offer an explanation as to why the markets SHOULD have dropped. His continued aggrandizement of the wonders of new technologies, with reverence for "synergies of key technologies", and "elevated prospective rates of return" reveals his lack of understanding, or his disregard of the damage done to the economy with his past easy money policies. Clearly, the disintegration we have experienced to date shows no sign of moderating his public enthusiasm for the benefits of modern communication improvements.

As to why it did drop, I'm stumped. I think it's fair to say that few market participants embrace anything close to an Austrian perspective. We are, after all, talking about a crowd that celebrated an easy money response to an easy money induced problem.

Shermag

megatron (2/13/2001; 17:45:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 48189)
DaveC and everone
The 'Alberta clipper' comment by AG is just too much. I do not care what anyone THINKS about him. The man is a LYING SCUMBAG PSYCHOPATH!!! Can ANYONE HERE RATIONALIZE the Bu@#$@t
that came out of his microcyphalic brain? I dare you. I DARE YOU!!! 2 HALF POINT RATE CUTS BECAUSE OF WEATHER???????!!!!!

Hill Billy Mitchell (2/13/2001; 17:34:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 48188)
Sir Raspberry @ # 48174
Good Sir, May I excerpt from your post:

"My patience has evaporated...I am tired of playing the hope game..."

I would off this word of encouragement:

"The fire has been fierce enough, yet the gold is undiminished. Only dross has been consumed." These are not my words but paraphrase one who was talking about things spiritual. I do not remember his name, sorry.

Very respectfully,

HBM

Mr Gresham (2/13/2001; 16:32:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 48187)
JMB, Randy
About monetization of GSE paper: Wasn't it bankers' "Acceptance" paper in the 1920s that was monetized by the Fed under Paul Warburg (Fed founder), who just happened to be founder of something titled "American Acceptance Association". (I'm remembering very very loosely from reading Rothbard's book a year ago.)

Acceptances were receipts for goods in trade, that could be still sitting on a dock in Hamburg, or still unassembled in a factory somewhere, as I recall.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/13/2001; 16:07:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48186)
beesting,.......You are right!
Absolutely right! It is written in black and white. It is very frustrating to point that out to people, only to have them question your sanity. Most citizens are either working too hard trying to fight inflation over a lifetime or they are too lazy too care "as long as the paper spends". It is infuriating to see the parade of talking head idiots selling the same old snake oil again and again. At some point the game will be up. Gold will be back in favor not as the result of a fad, but as an economic necessity.

JMB (2/13/2001; 16:00:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48185)
RANDY
Excuse me, I should have said, read the first paragraph of your Yahoo link again.

JMB (2/13/2001; 15:56:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 48184)
RANDY
Regarding the Chairman's "rising surpluses" worry. A big fat "HA HA" to him. Remember the y2k scare? "We have to be able to repo those GSE asset backed securities for liquidity."....and just last month, "Let's do it for another year." (You posted that one as well.) And now we understand what he was getting at when he told The Committee on the Budget on Jan. 25th, "Man o man, we're going to have HUGE surpuses for years to come....yea, it's o.k. to cut those taxes, we're going to have money coming out our wazoo." He set the bait and now he's making his move. Read the first paragraph of your post again.

Randy, these Fed people are planning to use paper we never thought about as "money". We're moving closer to Hyper-Time in D.C. City.

I remember back in the late Sixties..."You should buy stocks as a hedge against inflation." They should dig that one up again, it sure had a nice ring to it and looking back it signaled the top. Let's keep our ears open.

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 15:24:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 48183)
Journeyman, you will like this exchange from today's Q&A following testimony
Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel: You know, Mr. Chairman, that we are going to be faced with a number of decisions here in this year regarding trade relationships. Any thoughts, as we embark on that debate that surely will be stimulating, on the trade issue and connecting that to your comments regarding the global economy?

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan: Senator, I think that one of the very few things that American and, indeed, European and most Asian economists agree on is that open markets and free trade enhance the standard of living of all participants.

Amen.

beesting (2/13/2001; 15:12:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 48182)
Simple thoughts on governing bodies and Gold.
Governing bodies all seem to evolve into the same thing, be it a Government,a Gold mining company,a social club,or a banking industry.....The minorty in charge start to make decisions which are not popular with the majority causing much dissension and sometimes bloodshed.

It is my humble opinion the founders of the U.S.A. realized this phenomenon always happened over and over again through out history.They tried their best through the U.S. Constitution to form a more equatable form of governing body for the benifit of all,by limiting the power of the top echelon. But how could they limit the constant struggle for power.
Well I think Thomas Jefferson understood this complexity very well when he said, or words to this effect:
"Those who take control of the money system will rule."

So, they included in the Constitution that the money used in the newly formed sovereign nation would be only Gold and Silver, therefore making the users of the money being circulated the ""Power"" of the nation.
The banking consortium didn't want this to happen,but it did. The bankers knew time was in their favor as up to that point in time the bankers had always managed, to accumulate most of the circulating money in Europe where banking as we know it today, first got it's start.(Gold Money)

That didn't happen in the U.S.!!!The banks never accomplished full ownership of the Gold supply as new Gold was mined, mostly in the western United States,and then put into circulation.

Gold mining companies in California, and other companies even started to mint their own Gold money calling it "trade dollars"(because it was traded for goods and services, and everyone accepted it.)

So knowing this,when was the Constitution usurped?

In 1933 (England 1931) when Roosevelt took the Gold away from the people and wouldn't allow """FREE TRADE""" among the people of the United States! That was the day the people of the U.S. lost their sovereignty and socialism started.
IMHO the citizens of the U.S. can never call themselves ""FREE"" again until Gold in some form is used in "Free Trade" within the borders of the United States of America!!!

The U.S.Constitution has never been amended or changed concerning the money to be used in circulation by the general public. Therefore the money in use right now in the U.S. is fraudulent!!!
Please Think About This,,,and Thanks for Reading....beesting.

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 15:12:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 48181)
Baby steps in a larger evolution...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010213/n13479440_2.html
HEADLINE: Greenspan -- Fed considers expanded collateral for repos

From Reuters:

"Greenspan, in remarks prepared for his twice-yearly testimony to U.S. lawmakers on monetary policy, said the Fed's policy-making arm, the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), was considering accepting debt obligations of U.S. states and foreign governments as collateral for its usual repurchase operations conducted almost daily to implement its policy of targeting interest rates.
[...]
The Fed began a study last year of alternative approaches to managing its portfolio. To address the longer-term issues of implementing policy, Greenspan said the FOMC is studying whether it will ultimately be necessary to expand the use of the discount window or ask Congress for broader authority to acquire assets in open market operations."

All things change, and it can be economically disastrous to naively think otherwise. IT should strike you as meaningful that the pace of changes we see here has increased with the successful launch of the euro.

Journeyman (2/13/2001; 15:06:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 48180)
Thanx greatly @Turnaround msg#: 48149

Hi Turnaround!

These days, you can't document your sources enough - - - there's so much bad info out there! I really appreciate your response!!

Regards,
Journeyman

Mr Gresham (2/13/2001; 14:41:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 48179)
Raspberry: Got Waterwings?
Parting the Red Sea of economic logic has been quite an accomplishment for the fiat world these 20 (70? 90?) years, but then, they have harnessed the peon labor (taxes, savings) and loyalty of every Western nation in doing so, so maybe it wasn't such a miracle after all.

And it looks like we get to walk through, too, though we're not very sure who it is we're following.

Are we going to stand here in the middle and look up at that giant foaming crest overhead (Oh, excellent! Look at that curl, Dude!) wondering how they did it? Or just get across to dry land where we can discuss at leisure?

Waiting for a "definitive breakout" in this situation might be a bad idea, y'know? Better start learning Egyptian... ("Really, Pharaoh, yer honor, sir. I was just out walking my dog.")

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 14:39:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48178)
A play for modern times
Act I, scene one

[Aboard a yacht party far out at sea, a trading man is standing near the rail, trying to impress a young lady with his successful position in life.]

MAN: "You see, my advantage is that I stay both unburdened and alert. I don't fight the current, but go with the flow, looking for the "sure thing" on which to place my bets." <then, gesturing to the grand yacht and luxurious party in the background> "Such an expense as all this would only serve to cut into my trading funds. I don't need to trouble myself with ownership of such bulky wealth. The secret to my success is that I am clever enough to know the prices of everything, and simply make leveraged bets on changing prices. And because I bet on everything -- without buying anything -- my billions are still growing."

[The lady goes inside as rain begins to fall, and the scene ends as the yacht enters rough seas, causing this trading man to fall overboard.]

Act I, scene two

[The man sits alone on the tiny "classic" deserted island, barren but for a single coconut tree growing from its center against which he rests his back while water laps against feet at the shoreline.]

MAN: <pulls his checkbook from the pocket of his suit jacket and studies the sizable balance with a wide smile> "I am TRULY a wealthy man!"

-- The End --

Lessons learned at the expense of idiots are the easiest in life's school of hard knocks.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/13/2001; 14:24:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48177)
raspberry
Hang in there! Sure for many years gold has yielded an abysmal return on investment, but that is not the reason to acquire it. In times like these gold serves well as insurance. I have rarely felt as sure about anything as I do in regards to holding gold. View it as a valuable insurance policy denominated in intrinsic worth.

IMHO when the fortunes of physical gold change, it will be too swift to be able to hop that freight! The supplies to the ordinary Joe will dry up, and unquenched demand will fuel prices far beyond other investments. I implore you to hold on as long as you can.

Tree in the Forest (2/13/2001; 14:11:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 48176)
R Powell, John Doe, Carl H, J' Bear, TG
Great posts all. Very interesting. One thing that I think is worth including in your gold manipulation dissertation Carl H is a reference to the BOE auctions. If ever there was a "conspiracy", this was it and why not? The whole world had a vested interest in preventing a major market meltdown. These "auctions" started 2 years ago I believe at the beginning of 1999 and are supposed to end shortly on March 15. I always attributed these to the LTCM debacle and an attempt to keep the POG under control until certain BB's and miners could ameliorate dangerous gold deriviative positions. Now they've had their two years and time is up. What happens now? I also had a question regarding Harmony's puts. Can we assume that these are OTC? I looked around for this info and found nothing. Does anyone know? Thanks.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/13/2001; 14:11:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48175)
Pandagold,.......
IMHO, in the last paragraph of your post #48170, you went too far, sir. One posts on a forum for all to read and/or comment. When in disagreement, accept it, do not impugn someone for posting a response. Participants in this forum deserve this minimal courtesy.

raspberry (2/13/2001; 13:56:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 48174)
Exhausted
My patience has evaporated. After several years of analyzing, buying, holding, hoping, and reading this forum, I am cutting back on precious metal positions. I am glad I wasn't foolish enough to advise buying tech, internet, and telcom bombs, but hindsight being what it is...cash has not been trash, even when it comes to PM stocks. If the market ever makes a definitive break out, I'll add to positions. Until then, I am tired of playing the hope game.

Journeyman (2/13/2001; 13:37:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 48173)
Greenspan impressions & QUESTION OF THE DAY @ALL

IMPRESSIONS:

There were a lot of comforting things and statistics included in
this testimony, and Greenspan's approach seemed to me to be to
sooth the waters. Those aspects of the testimony could be to
sooth the markets - - - OR they could be true. These will be
amply covered by the regular financial media. However I suspect
the following observations WON'T generally be found in the
venerable financial rags:

-There was no mention of the Current Accounts Deficit, either in
Greenspan's prepared text (not too unusual) nor in the Q&A. This
is very unusual as there are usually two or three questions about
the CAD in the Q&A.

-There was an inordinate amount of discussion of the fallibility
of economic forecasts but the necessity of using them to plan
fiscal and monetary policy anyway. [free-market money would fix
most of these problems]

-The key to these fallible economic projections is the accuracy
of the even more fallible projections of the rate of increase of
productivity, which though "crude" [Greenspan's word], has been
reinforced by the data acquired during the last six-month down-
turn.

-The psychological component -- specifically what people expect
to happen -- of economic trends enters into nearly all aspects of
the economy. "Uncertainty" is a big no-no.

-Predictably, the most talk was of the desirability of tax-cuts
vs. spending as the "cure" for the projected surplusses.
Predictibly the democrats want the money to be spent (they
maintain the fantasy it will be spent on the "poor") and the
republicans want a tax cut (they don't trust the democrats to use
the money to pay off the debt.) Greenspan wants the debt paid
down, but tries not to take a position on what congress should do
about it. Nonetheless, he pointed out that the pegs and spending
caps that had been effective previously, broke down about two
years ago.

-Interesting theme repeated from Greenspan, first introduced to
congress in his Jan. 25 testimony to the Senate Budget Committee.
The problem will be to get rid of the "excess" surplus, which
will otherwise force congress as early as 2006 to decide what to
do with as much as $550 billion surplus. Greenspan points out it
could cause unwarranted "fiscal stimulus" otherwise.

-Economic processes are happening faster and faster.

-A couple of interesting exchanges demonstrated that the
protocols for Greenspan's testimony preclude him speaking his own
opinions unless he specifically labels those opinions as such,
and that he is thus usually speaking for the FOMC. (Fed Open
Market Committee)

==============================================================

QUESTION OF THE DAY: What reason might Austrian economists give
for the drop in the stock markets after Greenspan's speech.

The reason I have in mind is pretty subtle - - - and only my
take. Perhaps YOU have a better reason than mine?

Regards,
Journeyman

Mr Gresham (2/13/2001; 13:25:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48172)
Randy
Tired markets
What a mind, what a mind!

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 12:58:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 48171)
Thoughts on the gold market and delivery of metal at low premiums over derivative prices
Right up until the moment it disintegrates, a Firestone tire always looks like its capable of turning out another mile.

You know what to do; and no one can do it FOR you, although friendly help is just a phone call away.

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 12:43:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 48170)
Stocks, Lies, and Tickertape

Sorry, sir, the reasoning behind your argument is beyond me. I have not the time to refer to all of it. I am well aware of US history as it was my major interest at school, and since - infact, history in general.

There is just one sentence right at the beginning:-

<<<The US was able to survive the Civil War because of the shared ties between the Union and Confederacy. Shared ties such as language, religion, and culture. ..>>>.

If there was such shared language, religion and culture, how on earth then could such a shocking war take place.
The reason they remained together afterwards is that the Southern States had no choice, they were beaten into submission - but the hate llives on.

There are even other states where they have followings who have as their common aim, a desire to separate from the Union. Mostly cranks some may be, and their hopes will never be realised. There now, one should never say never should one.

Please , please, SLATT, don't return with a history of the American civil war,and why it was fought, I feel I have almost lived it. I have spent days and hours on many of those battlefields with my imagination picturing what happened - not that long ago. The same with the Revolution.

I have walked so many of the battlefields dear to American history - the one that moved me the most was Okinawa. Maybe it was the young Japanese girl tour guide who sang such a melancholy song which told the tale of one incident.

Omaha Beach, is another, but it is at Okinawa that really got to me.

I strayed a bit there, Sorry.

No, have no fear, the European Union and its currency WILL be strong, and when completed quite huge. It is no longer a concept, it is a fact, and it exists. I will guarantee it 100%

I promise you this will be my last on the subject. I am sure you will reply, you have a built in desire, I know, to have the last word - and this I grant you. Promise!

Randy (@ The Tower) (2/13/2001; 12:37:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 48169)
Fickle...
Today's Reuters HEADLINES during Mr. Greenspan's testimony:

Greenspan sees major US economic slowdown in 2001
US Treasuries dip after Greenspan warns on economy
Greenspan says economy may face rough transition
U.S. Treasuries fall as Greenspan hints at rebound
Greenspan says U.S. economy not in recession

Save yourself a brain spasm regarding central banker efforts and wayward investor logic...get gold and forget about it. Let Mother Nature be your "central banker"...she doesn't print gold, she makes you work for it. Hence, gold will ALWAYS be "good as gold". Call Centennial and get you some.

SHIFTY (2/13/2001; 12:33:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 48168)
Trail Guide
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. However now I have a new one. Or is it the same one with a new perspective?
I had asked "Are you saying that mining will be outlawed in the future?"
I don't know any thing about the Texas Railroad Commission but
Liquor taxes have not put the manufactures of Liquor out of business or kept the shareholders from making a profit. Also the Oil producers are doing OK with the limiting of production and also taxes on their products. I think I would buy Oil stocks before filling my barn with barrels of oil. Don't get me wrong I like physical gold I have as much money in physical as I do in mining shares.
I guess I think of gold like a beautiful woman. Im not just a leg man I go for the whole package.
BIG SMILE!
Off to do chores.

$hifty

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/13/2001; 12:14:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 48167)
Peter Asher,.....Thank You

You have made my day with such praise from the House of Asher!

DaveC (2/13/2001; 11:55:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 48166)
Another Classic Greenspan Quote from Today
Still, he said, the ``exceptional weakness'' evident in economic statistics at the end of last year ``apparently
did not continue in January.'' Greenspan suggested that much of the weakness in the fourth quarter was related to poor weather.

Senator Hasaclue: "Do you mean to say, Chairman Greenspan, that you enacted two half point rate cuts in less than a months time because of an Alberta Clipper."

AG- "Yes, some of the data indicated a lessing of warming tendencies as the result of an increase in frigid conditions as it related to the total dynamic of economic activity."

Got that?

sstins (2/13/2001; 11:09:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 48165)
Coin sales ... FWIW
Recently sold a few modern bullion coins on Ebay as I intend on replacing these with old gold from USA Gold, "RANDY". Mainly had to free up some short term cash.

hehehe

Anyway, I've sold a couple of 1/10 & 1/4 oz eagles, 1/4 oz Panda, 1oz Maple Leaf and a 1oz Aust Kangaroo. Total gold sold was 3.65 oz and averaged $321 per ounce.

I say all that to say this, it appears that the general public awareness or interest seems to have picked up along with the premium paid despite the recent swoon in the spot price of gold. MK, Randy, have you also noticed increased interest or an influx of new customers?

Recession talk and flat to negative return in the sm is diverting some money to the metals.

ss

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/13/2001; 10:48:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 48164)
Pandagold
Your analogy of the numerous languages and cultures of Europe to those present in the USA is IMHO flawed. The US was able to survive the Civil War because of the shared ties between the Union and Confederacy. Shared ties such as language, religion, and culture. Sure there are small enclaves within the US where other languages/cultures appear dominant. You mentioned Miami, FL. The Cubanos came to the US to live. Their country was not voluntarily absorbed into the US. When the US "acquired" Florida, it was done only by pursuing a policy of settling US citizens in the spanish colony, who once they became the majority petitioned to join the US. (I am not blind to the existant military/political machinations which contributed to this event, hence my use of "acquired". Regardless, Spain was powerless to exert control over the citizens of their former colony.)

The EU is faced with a much different situation than exists in the US. The nations already exist. The languages and cultures are established. The animosities may be suppressed, but still exist. There will be an inevitable tendency towards political coalition within the EU based upon common culture, language and religion. I suspect the obvious coalition will be of Germany and the central states, others will develop in response. Initially the makeup of these coalitions may be dependent upon the individual issue before the EU. Over time the coalitions will solidify into a voting block. It won't take too long for that dynamic to dissolve the EU, IMHO.

That being said, the EU is still a grand experiment. One which I look forward to seeing how it plays out. The best of luck to all across the pond!

Buena Fe (2/13/2001; 10:28:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48163)
Trail Guide (2/13/2001; 9:48:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 48160)
TG.......I sense that the next phase of the currency war is soon to be implemented, ie "physical premiums being disclosed/revealed". (It is my contention/belief that there has been a physical premium (for size) in operation incognito for some time). Do you expect the next move to originate with the ECB/BIS.......maybe an alteration to the Washington Agreement, (notice how Europe disguised this earthquake (read-act of war) by announcing it in Washington......so that it is henceforth always remebered/recalled as the "Washington" Agreement...even though it is entirely European in nature!), or something more suttle.......like a block trade above market (read-paper)? Thanks for you thoughts.
Keep Well

Peter Asher (2/13/2001; 10:03:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 48162)
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape msg#: 48157

Perfect summation, and actually a perfectly written post! A+ for clear concise writing and logic.

Instant discussion was launched by your excellent �punch-line' >>>>Unless a common language, culture, religion, and GOAL exists worldwide among those in power, one world government will always be a concept rather than reality.<<<<

She said: "What about force?"
I said: "By who, over who?" and read her your first paragraph.

So, this leads to the one way some of "Them" have been attempting to overcome what we are saying here. That being; "Dumb down" through educational abuse, prevent circumvention via a drug culture, neutralize ethical values and causativeness by government support of psychiatry, and make it all seem real via television programming,

It won't work; per your first paragraph. But, "these are the times that try mans souls", and "They" are the souls that try men's times!

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 9:54:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 48161)
SLATT

Forgive the name abbreviation but you did say once I could use it.

About languages. It was pointed out to me sometime ago that there were more Chinese learning English than there are native speakers of the language.

And, when I was teaching in Taiwan, all the other English teachers were American. Those Chinese students used to tie most of them up in knots with their knowlege of grammar.
Almost caught me once or twice, because they used American English.

When the Chinese learn something - they learn it.

In a few years time, language will be no barrier - anywhere, and neither will culture.

Trail Guide (2/13/2001; 9:48:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 48160)
Comment

Chris Powell (2/11/2001; 12:32:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48009) Is GATA cutting off paper gold's escape? (Corrected version)

-----------------

Hi Chris,
Thanks for clarifying your position. I fully well understand where GATA is going with their efforts.

Anyone that has invested in the gold industry during the 90s has had a real negative impact on their wealth. If one used the past decades as a precedent for rules , typical equity valuations or laws of conduct within this arena, their assets should not have suffered as they have. Cycles of highs and lows were expected, but a complete washout of product (gold) value was never in the cards. Did someone change the rules or were the rules just never fully understood?

My position is that the rules didn't change and the system is functioning within it's range. What did happen is that investors never owned these securities during such a period. Therefore, they never had a chance to experience how they would react outside the perceived fair pricing band.

This commodities pricing band, that gold is conjectured to belong in, was never forced outside it's fair value perimeter until this decade. Allowing for past inflation calculations. Reading what Mr. Parks wrote the other day in

"It's Not Your Daddy's Gold Anymore --- by Lawrence Parks" (see my 2/9/2001#: 47878 for ref.),

we can get an idea of how it all happened. Without an investment need on the horizon, western gold demand fell back into an industrial mode with jewelry being the
greatest portion of that segment. Further, the selling of existing gold savings, no longer seen as real wealth, added to the supply.

From my location, I could see where the common paper pricing of gold that was used through out most of our modern times had never functioned without a backdrop of bullion accumulation by the Western masses. Once this liquidation trend was in place, anyone from the shoe boy to the CB
could simply sell contracts as part of the crowd and no one would argue. With everyone now betting on gold's price moves without wanting the metal, paper gold could be traded with very little ownership demand for metal. The volume of this particular type of trading could and did completely
overwhelm the physical segment of the markets. Sold over and over, then brought back from a disgruntled "trading public" at a lower price. "Someone is after us", was the cry! Yes indeed, it was us!

Actually the proof is in the air, all around us, and your position, Chris, bears this out. Taking a line from Mr. Parks, ""It's Not Your Daddy's Gold Anymore", paper traders do not endorse the physical advocate's side of the equation. For us advocates, gold at even a dollar is a good thing.
Where as gold below the mine production range is a negative manipulation of the system for long paper traders. Again, had gold risen to $600 because the Governments, the traders, the players, the banks and all, jumped into long paper,,,,, not a word would have been said. Yet, the physical gold buyers of the world would have had to pay dearly for their new savings.

Chris, your comment saying:

----"But what are we at GATA to do? It didn't seem enough for us to sit back and let nature take its course----"

This intrigued me. You know, you could have said great day for gold, lets all buy the metal and not add any more to our industry investments! If the Cabal wants to use their illegal operations to drive gold into the dirt,,,,, bring it on, yes? You know, no industry ever went broke from people buying it's main product,,,, in mass! It's funny how the industry investors always try to remedy the same dynamic by asking the mines to slow down. Yet, this is something they all fear that new government controls on production would do???? But, jumping to the physical side of the fence is never an option?

Yes, promoting the metal, buying the product, would eventually cut off the paper selling far easier and faster than any legal action. Bill Gates didn't get where he is at by telling everyone that his company shares were a far better thing for the public to buy than his software???? (smile)

You say:

------- Governments and mining companies have responsibilities beyond themselves --governments to the public, mining companies to their shareholders and employees and even,especially in mining-dependent areas, to their countries as well. -----------

True, but these are still businesses, not one's personal reserves. When we "Western Children" told everyone that would listen to stop buying their main product (gold) and buy near product substitutions,,,, what does one expect to happen? Then we blame the government for exploiting the issue and the mines for falling into the hands of manipulators that offer them the only way to stay in business,,,, sell forward.

Just because all this happened to fall in a time period where currency issues are impacting the problem doesn't negate these faults of thought in the industry,,,,, or it's dogmatic promoters. Had gold product been promoted, it's physical demand could have easily overridden any political
motivations,,,,,, hands down. We chose to bet on a lame horse and now want satisfaction because that animal is under an attack it cannot overcome. Physical gold today, even allowing for it's incorrect currency valuations proves that it's the better defense during strange times.

You say:

-----FOA/Trail Guide is right that GATA may accelerate the breakdown of the manipulated paper gold market -- that indeed is our charter, exactly what we set out to do. If GATA helps "cut off the avenue of escape" from the paper gold market, so be it. -----

Why did you not see the physical side of this? My friend, I was referring to the escape from all paper substitutes and the escapees being from all walks of life. Not just the big BBs or trader types. Truly, what you fear is what we embrace; that gold will fall further while physical supplies
last.

I perceive that your actions will accelerate a breakdown in this paper market and that breakdown will not shut down the market. No, it will leave the system mired in legal moralizes while the premium on physical gold spikes well above the paper trading price. Leaving both the gold
advocate and gold substitute bug no avenue of escape.

The longer the physical markets can operate next to a rapidly inflating paper market, the better it will be for gold buyers.

You say:

-----Gold IS special, but the kind of trading that distresses FOA/Trail Guide -- the trading in gold's mere price, as opposed to trading in the metal itself -- is hardly unique. Most markets trade this way, commodities and currencies. Speculators pile on for the ride whatever is being traded. As long as there will be trading in gold, there will be speculation. ----------The difference with gold is that its being more than a commodity -- its being a universal currency in itself, -------

As I said, had the price of gold stayed within a $400 to $600 range, the present system would not be opposed one bit. It would even be suggested that gold is performing it's historic roll of documenting currency inflation. Even though such inflation would be well beyond the commodity price of gold. All is well as leverage players use the very same system to profit themselves at a level equal to the real inflation rate. And doing said profiting as both big boys and small operators alike. Leaving the much larger world public no place to gain an equal share by owing real gold.
We indeed, as Mr. Park's children, stand in a mirror and do not see ourselves draped in Western thought and wearing new world ideals about old world wealth.

"Free markets", the paper traders claim, siting on both sides of the fence. "Free Markets are what we seek, as long as they trade our way".

My perception, Chris
My perception

TrailGuide

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 9:43:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 48159)
Stocks lies and Tickertape

As I have indicated, history is chock full of people who found things hard (nay, impossible to believe) until it happened. Even reputable scientists have said such a thing could not be, and put forward scientific evidence to prove why. Then someone did it.

If you can look at Europe, and think how these nations were throwing everything they had at each other, in living memory, and see what has come to pass, then say what you do � what can I say.

There are people now in Europe finding it hard to believe, and it's happened. If a free vote had been taken among the people, I assure you, it would never have happened � not in a month of Sundays. What was that about free choice?

They tell me that there is somewhere a flat earth society, people who still believe the earth is flat.

But this is what makes life fun. Our creator made the essential functions of our body to work on automatic pilot, but he left us with free thought, to use as we wish.

Thank God there are people who don't just say why? but why not.

I am not thumping a pulpit. It matters not to me whether others can see. You will always, I am sure, have more people that will see it how you do, than how I do.

No, the European union will not break up. The same was said of the United States - they even had a war � but it did not break up. There are as many diverse languages in the USA as there are in Europe. Go down to Miami, and you would think you were in Spain, or Latin America.

Most people under 30 with a reasonable education, in Europe, understand English and this increases daily � some even speak it better than many Americans, or Brits.

JMB (2/13/2001; 9:34:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 48158)
Black Blade, An Absence of "Juice", and Higher Gold Prices
Is this the way you see it?

The various Carlin Trend Gold Projects have a big problem if they can't get electricity into their area of operation. So.....an absence of electricity, or high priced electricity, will lead to higher Gold prices, assuming a constant demand.

Does this mean that we will have to "sing the praises" of the Grasshopper's shortsightedness for our wealth appreciation?

ALL: HUG A CALIFORNIAN TODAY...they're gunna make us rich. (IF you're in San Francisco, skip it!)

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/13/2001; 9:09:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 48157)
Pandagold, Trail Guide, Shifty
Proponents of one world government lack the historical precedent for that prophecy. When people interact in a climate of perceived freedom such as the internet, opposing opinions are more the norm than not. Add people of differing cultures, religions, and concerns of all sorts, you will have a plethora of disagreement. Thats why we have nations in the first place. Look at the members of the UN.

A one world government, new world order? I don't see it. At most a tenuous understanding between regional powers, which will be ignored when not deemed to be in the national interest.

The EU is voluntary but not complete. There will always be at least one non member nation in its midst, in order to exploit the status quo for its own national interest. History does not support the long term viability of such an enterprise. All politics are local. The Austrian government and people recently experienced the weight of political correctness being levied against them in reply to one mans words.

The EU is an ambitious experiment, but one IMHO that will end in failure. Unless a common language, culture, religion, and GOAL exists worldwide among those in power, one world government will always be a concept rather than reality. Local concerns will always take precedent in governance. That is human nature.

Carl H (2/13/2001; 9:06:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 48156)
JustamereBear Response
Hello justamereBear,

I thought I should reply to your response. I am generally NOT a proponent of conspiracy theories. A year ago I thought that those who were saying there was such a conspiracy in gold were nuts. On first inspection, the price behavior of gold seemed a little strange given the published supply/demand numbers so I started looking into it more. Over the past year, I have come across several pieces of data which I do not see other explanations for. (For example, see the references in my other post.) I would be happy to hear other explanations for the data in those references.

Your post made me realize that I made a oversight in what I posted. I made it appear as the options were the main danger to the bullion banks. If my numbers on them are correct, then they are actually small compared to the 10,000 tons of physical gold borrowed. Are there other exchanges that trade commodity options? LBMA?

I regarding the Fiat vs Gold argument as relevant only in that this view may have been responsible for causing the central banks to lend/sell some of their gold. These sales and lending were initially what depressed the price of gold. I do not believe that these sales were initially part of any conspiracy. Rather, I believe that the central banks were initially just trying to get a return on the gold stored in their vaults either by converting it to paper debt securities, or by getting interest in bullion on it.

Regarding rolling over the gold loans � there is a problem with this. If the price of gold goes up a lot, the BB's will have large paper losses that they will have to mark to market. This would show them as effectively bankrupt. Not good for confidence in the banking system.

I will agree with you that the financial engineers are the cause of a lot of stupidity on wall street. I spent 10 years developing software to simulate the internal workings of transistors. Two lessons are burned into my brain from work. First, question everything, especially the results you like. Second, understand the limitations of the model. Most of these financial engineers do not understand the limitations of their models. For example, Black Scholes is badly flawed and I doubt that one a hundred users could explain to you why.

Thank you for taking the time to comment. I will work on it some more and produce version 3.0 in a week or so.

SteveH, I am flattered by the HoF nomination, but I think it is premature. Wait until I get more data with it.

Canuck Gold (2/13/2001; 8:42:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 48155)
Trail Guide (2/13/2001; 7:18:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48152)
Trail Guide is being true to his handle in his response to SHIFTY, in a manner similar to that used in addressing other direct questions. This is my interpretation of his method, open for debate, of helping others come to their own conclusions rather than being definitive and specific in his reply. However (you just knew that was coming, didn't you), while there is an acknowledgement in the response that governments, from time-to-time, make policy changes that are not of a positive nature for all the population, and certain vested interests will benefit to the detriment of others, I don't think the response fully addressed the question.

I do not profess to be an expert in government policy or on the banking systems or on investing, but I do try to look at problems from every conceivable angle before making decisions. What actions a government takes quite often is based on expediency and on what it thinks it can get away with (in a democracy, I should add) without upsetting too many people in the process. So when it comes to the issue of predicting what a government will do if the value of gold shoots through the roof, I think you have to examine history to see what has happened in the past to get a feel for what a government thinks it can get away with in the future. And I, for one, think it would be easier and faster for the US government to reimpose a ban on gold ownership than to raise taxes or to implement restrictions on gold production, a substantial proportion of which occurs outside the jurisdiction of the US. One also has to look at what actions have been taken by other governments during critical times and I tend to believe that the sort of crisis that could cause the value of gold to skyrocket would effect the US to a significantly greater degree than other gold-producing countries.

So I believe that a more complete answer to SHIFTY's query should involve more of a geopolitical discussion involving many governments rather than the one provided. I believe that anyone residing outside the US would have more flexibility of action and I also believe it would be possible for holders of unhedged mining shares to realize substantial gains on their holdings, particularly if those shares can be traded outside US jurisdiction.

CG

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 8:01:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 48154)
Trail Guide shifty

I couldn't help reading your answer to Shifty. Naturally I can understand you finding the idea of one world government (though an official, overt one, is a long way down the road)
a little hard to swallow, and this is exactly why it will come about.

How many people, especially European, would have thought 50 years ago there would have been one European government, with Germany a major player?

There are many white crosses � rows and rows of them, all over Europe, and even the world, wherein lie many young men, who certainly would have not believed it, and I doubt if most of them would be there, if they could have foreseen.

This does not mean that a one European government is necessarily a bad thing, and may prove a very good thing, only time will tell.

My point in mentioning it is that it would have been thought unimaginable to most people and only such a short time ago.

So maybe sometimes we need a quiet reflection on just what is possible, and what can exist, before we are tempted
to laugh, and scorn those who could possibly have such open minds, that they are able to foresee just what can be, and perhaps what is.

respectfully, Sir, Pandagold

Trail Guide (2/13/2001; 7:25:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 48153)
Reply

John Doe (2/12/2001; 22:40:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 48131)
@Trail Guide

John, when discussions get this long and in debth, we must be more exact in our reference,,,,, or one cannot reply effectively. Your words:

-----I continue to see inferences that Harmony would have to "sell into the market" if the put goes into the money.------

Where do you see this and how did my context infer this?

-------- If the market is below the strike price, the gold that Harmony normally mines will simply be "put" the originator of the contract at or perhaps sometime before expiration, and not "sold into the market".------

Did I not place all my proposition within a category of gold dropping quickly into the $200 range,,,, as an example?

-------- I sense you are trying to fit Harmony's recent financing into a contributory role in the process whereby the paper-gold markets are predicted to freeze and/or collapse.--------

Absolutely, but within a framework of the entire industry suffering the same fate. That future problem is the source of the jitters the market feels when each new hedge is applied. How did you read my post to reference otherwise? The total thrust of the post was in this direction, no?

Thanks TrailGuide

Trail Guide (2/13/2001; 7:18:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48152)
Reply
SHIFTY (1/4/2001; 3:11:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 44999)
Trail Guide/FOA: I am a small placer miner and own physical gold ( in most all forms) and also un-hedged mining company shares in equal amounts. I have a problem understanding how Gold will have a tremendous value and that this will not also be the case with un-hedged mining companies that produce the very substance that you say will be so valuable.If we hold physical gold in a safe place to be pulled out for use when needed , what makes the gold I hold better than the gold that will be poured into a bar on the same day in the future? Will it not have equal value in whatever is being used as the medium of exchange . I can see where physical may out perform shares ,and I also can see where hedged mines can go bust , but I must be missing something here. Are you saying that mining will be outlawed in the future? Or will it be performed only by a world
government of some sort and all the people that own the mines can kiss their wazoo? I hope when time permits that you can shed some light on this for me.
================

OK, shifty, you write:

------Or will it be performed only by a world government of some sort and all the people that own the mines can kiss their wazoo?.------

For the record, I never have even for a moment considered some one world government. I also laugh at the notion of some great Cabal running the show. These shallow statements are the dream work of people that confuse social order with someone controlling their lives. Our world history is full of rules and laws enacted by various factions from the beginning. Face it, laws always infringe on some group as they yell big brother! We will never be without some segment being controlled for the society at large! It always the easy way out. Broadcast that some small bunch is profiting by ruling over us.

For better or worse this is the way human kind has governed itself. During some time frames it's real bad and in others it's real good. We slide from one side of the bank to the other as everyone rides this river of life. But never has any one group been smart enough or powerful enough to
control us all. And never will be. It's a waste of of our short lives to base our decisions on when the all powerful Guru will take us over.

-------Are you saying that mining will be outlawed in the future?------

Shifty, did you really mean to ask that? After all the countless references to taxes, production controls,,,,, the precedent of the Texas Railroad Commission,,,,,,, the reasoning for governments to write legal tender laws and their ability to implement them,,,,,, the recent control of California power distribution?,,,, the foundation of a changing reserve currency system,,,,, In all this you ask
in the context of something done outside the law?

Is your income being taken as an outlaw act, because it's taxed? Is the speed limit range an outlaw rule because it 35 mph? Is the dumping of sewerage in the Mississippi an outlaw act, or should the law be changed to stop infringing on the free rights of some? Do you see the rules that control
someone else's assets as good because it benefits your cause? Do you think rules are bad if they suddenly impact your investment assets?

If gold production is limited, and the amount produced controlled by law. Would this be an outlaw of mining or the better use of a limited resource? Any number of controls could be implemented and they would certainly impact some. Yourself? You will then be one of the ones that's being ruled by the mass, right? So you can't dump all the waste in the river you feel you should be able to? You can't drive as fast as you feel you should be able? You can't take as much money home because the IRS takes more than you think they should? So gold production is limited and said production
is taxes in some controlling way? So what's new in the world?

Remember, in the 1800s there was no income tax,,,,, at all? People back then said the same thing you do now,,,,,,, "What now, is making money being outlawed?

Shifty, the world moves on whether we want to be on the ride or not. Fight it if you will or adjust yourself. I'm also in the boat and just navigating the rock in the river. Watch your Bow, my friend, rapids dead ahead! (smile)

TrailGuide

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 3:02:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 48151)
Gold (money) rules

These are the pointers as to who rules the roost. We should ignore the rhetoric of America this, or Britain, or Japan that.

There is another Nation out there that has no national boundaries. Its intelligence organisation is spread throughout the world, its army - whichever is the most convenient to use at the time for a specific task, and it controls the underworld.

BIS is a part of this 'elite' power structure

Even China must bend to its dictates
.
China 'nearing BIS level'
China's big four state-owned banks will be ready to meet capital adequacy guidelines administered by the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) by the time the new capital accord comes into force in 2004.

Black Blade (2/13/2001; 2:48:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 48150)
RE: IronHead
IronHead,

Good to see you here. I am not sure which company or companies would be involved in that particular project. Washington is a difficult state to work in for the mining companies. Your new senator has expressed opposition to mining. The type of operation that you seem to be describing sounds like some type of "back-fill" operation - probably employing a concrete slurry. The "old-timers" weren't all that interested in the environment. That was at a time before such concerns and the prevailing attitude was one of "Manifest Destiny." In other words, man should conquer nature, etc. New mining methods require a much different approach for obvious reasons. Some methods of recycling tailings of old mines may be profitable at the same time clean up some of these so-called "toxic" deposits. Whether or not they are "toxic" is not the point here. The new EPA regulations call for "Toxic Waste Inventories." This is a strange situation as when any rock is moved, it invariably contains microscopic elements of lead, arsenic, cadmium, etc. These are naturally occurring substances and yet the rock must be classified as "Toxic Waste." Even though millions of tons of overlying soil and waste rock must be moved to reached the underlying ore. The environmentalist crowd got this concession from Bruce Babbit last year. It is ridiculous of course and it undermines the environmentalist cause. They now classify the state of Nevada as the most "Toxic" state because of these new EPA regulations. The environmentalists play it up for PR reasons. The only possible downside that I see in the mine operation that you describe is that if the tailings are truly "toxic", then care must be used as disturbance could mobilized the toxic material. Otherwise, it could actually be a benefit if the tailings are reprocessed and the waste "back-filled" into the old workings. Another point is that there are EPA slush funds involved in many of these sites. These funds are "Cash-Cows" for certain interested parties (i.e. researchers, states, departmental agencies, etc.). So why kill the golden goose by actually cleaning up a "toxic" waste site when jobs are created and cash flows in? I've seen this in Butte, Montana at the old Berkeley Pit. This old copper pit was mined during much of the last century and early this century. There are sulfide ores involved. To make a long story short, the pit has filled with ground water and is now acidic. It is in danger of flowing into the surrounding drainage. This problem could have been easily mitigated, however, as I have described, there are many (environmentalist, government and academic researchers) who are opposed. A Canadian company and proven that they could "mine" the water for metals and eject "drinking quality water" into the drainage. This was deemed to be "Not good enough", as drinking water quality is a lower standard than permitted by the EPA and other agencies. Isn't that a comfort? The real reason of course, is that this EPA Super Fund site project employs people and has become a "Cash-Cow" for the environmentalism industry. I could go on siting many more examples. But then again, fewer mines, and the result is less gold, silver, etc. delivered into the market, right?

Cheers,

- Black Blade

Turnaround (2/13/2001; 2:42:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48149)
(No Subject)

Hi Journeyman! Long time!

Journeyman (2/11/2001; 12:50:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48011)
Killology - - - & references, please! @Pandagold, totalamature
http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm

"totalamature: Do you have any specific references to the statements you make with regards to:

1. The A-bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, particularly the following:

Admiral William D. Leahy, who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time, opposed the use of the bomb, and later recounted, "The use of this barbarous weapon was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. .."

Try Truman: War Criminal and references therein
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/truman.html

http://www.popsvox.com/fdr/hbzfrm.htm

and
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/fdr.html

for the above, a good article on the 'pre-planned' Pearl Harbor attack (with a plug for the book), and much 'missing' history of Commissar FDR, the New Deal, etc.

"The Revolution Was" at
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/index.html
above is required reading for every American-

"�In a revolutionary situation mistakes and failures are not what they seem. They are scaffolding. Error is not repealed. It is compounded by a longer law, by more decrees and regulations, by further extensions of the administrative hand. As deLawd said in The Green Pastures, that when you have passed a miracle you have to pass another one to take care of it, so it was with the New Deal. Every miracle it passed, whether it went right or wrong, had one result. Executive power over the social and economic life of the nation was in- creased. Draw a curve to represent the rise of executive power and look there for the mistakes. You will not find them. The curve is consistent.

"At the end of the first year, in his annual message to the Congress, January 4, 1934, President Roosevelt said: "It is to the eternal credit of the American people that this tremendous readjustment of our national life is being accomplished peacefully."

Peacefully if possible -- of course�."

"�There was no plan to begin with. But there was a shibboleth that united them all: "Capitalism is finished." There was one idea in which all differences could be resolved, namely, the idea of a transfer of power. For that a united front; after that, anything. And the wine of communion was a passion to play upon history with a scientific revolutionary technic�."

What's this have to do with gold? The gold confiscation was the first step of the revolution, we have been in a continuous state of national emergency ever since. "The Revolution Was" provides a few more details of the confiscation and subsequent monetary activities.

"2. The Viet Nam "police action," particularly the following:

South Vietnamese military losses exceeded 1 million, and North Vietnamese
losses ranged between 500,000 and 1 million. U.S. bombing in Vietnam was four
times greater than the combined U.S.-British bombing of Germany in World
War II. America dropped 6 million tons of bombs on Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.
The war uprooted and made refugees of up to 10 million South Vietnamese,
roughly half the country's population."

Try *Manufactured Consent* and the *Chomsky Reader* for more than you may be able to stomach.

"3. The savaging of Iraq, particularly the following:

Secretary of Commerce Robert Mossbacher explained why the U.S. had launched
the most massive airlift in the world's history. Mossbacher said, "Of course
it's about petroleum. Crass or not, it's oil that keeps everybody going."
... during "Desert Storm" only 7% of the bombs dropped on Iraq were "smart."
The Gulf War employed the highest level of bombing in history (around 100,000
tons of explosives dropped in six weeks). ... An American pilot made news
by commenting, "It was like shooting fish in a barrel." Former U.S. Attorney
General Ramsey Clark estimates that the Gulf War killed over 150,000 Iraqi
civilians.

There are some articles at antiwar.com on this.

SteveH (2/13/2001; 2:41:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 48148)
I hearby nominate CarlH's most recent (2nd ver)
for the hall of fame.

*Us people with last names beginning in H must stick together. ;-)

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 2:31:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 48147)
The Tarnishing of Gold?
www.kitco.com (HaoDeng Bank)

How the people, even in Asia, are being slowly but surely, weaned away from their fondness for gold:

YOU CAN'T TARNISH GOLD, BUT YOU CAN TARNISH ITS IMAGE

Tuesday, February 13 8:27 AM SGT

Hao Deng Bank Launches Visa Platinum Card
(Full text of a statement. Contact details below.)
HONG KONG, Feb 12 PRNewswire Asia-AsiaNet - Dao Heng Bank Group Limited ("Dao Heng") (HKSE: 0223) today announces the public launch of its Dao Heng Visa Platinum card, a premium credit card product that offers a wide range of exclusive privileges to high net-worth individuals with an annual income of HK$600,000 (US$77,000) or above.

The Dao Heng Visa Platinum card was soft-launched last November. Private invitations were extended to the Card Centre's Gold cardholders who are eligible for Platinum status.

Mr Vincent Chiang Wai-sam, General Manager - Card Centre, Dao Heng Bank Limited, said: "We are greatly encouraged by the response of the private launch. In just two months, we have already issued a few thousand of the platinum cards, even before any advertising or promotion of the product. We are confident that we can capture 10 percent of the Platinum card market this year."

"This is the first time that Dao Heng has partnered with Visa International to issue the Visa Platinum card. We aim to target quality and high net-worth clientele. Industry benchmark shows that Platinum cardholders normally spend three to five times more than general cardholders, and have a lower rate of bad debt and delinquency. The existing Gold and general card products cannot reflect their superior status or fulfill their requirements. Therefore, we believe that there is definitely a market niche for Platinum cards." continued Mr Chiang.

To cater to the special needs of Dao Heng Visa Platinum card target customers, who are mainly well-heeled professionals and senior executives leading a modish lifestyle, the product offers unsurpassed travel and lifestyle related benefits such as Priority Pass membership. Cardholders also enjoy "Superior Financial Services" which includes high credit limit, lower annualized interest rate and a "Call-a-Loan" feature. Dao Heng Visa Platinum card at the same time offers a comprehensive protection package, including Golfers Protection, Pet Loss Protection, "$0" Lost Card Total Protection and Immediate Dispute Resolution service.

IronHead (2/13/2001; 1:37:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 48146)
Black Blade - Environment and New Ops.
Evening Sir Black Blade: First, let me express my deepest appreciation for all that you contributed here, including succinct social observation. Additional thanks for the comments the other day regarding environmental issues and mine operations.

On a similar vein; you seem to have pretty long antennae, which might have reached into my 'neck of the woods again', with respect to the old Holden Mine deep in the wilds of Washington State. There are some mining types doing some relatively extensive survey work, hinting at the possibility of reopening this site which has been closed for almost 50 years. Apparently mining types are somewhat clandestine, such that most of what is going around is idle gossip and conjecture.

For those unfamiliar with the mine (me too), it was primarily a copper mine with some silver, zinc, and gold. The tailings piles, of which I don't recall how many million cubic feet are extant, and considered one of the major toxic waste sites in the state, are of prime interest due to the amount of leached gold still "hidden" in there. The figure of 2-3 billion dollars worth of gold have been mentioned locally, with extraction costs double or tripling that figure (at roughly today's POG).

The tailings are what everyone seems concerned about, due to the toxicity and the nearby stream which they run into, which dumps into probably the cleanest and one of the deepest lakes in the country, Lake Chelan. The theme that is rumored around here is that the mine company is looking at putting the tailings back in the mountain as part of the cleanup operation. (I'm no miner, but doesn't the expansion factor of mined material make that a little ilogical?)

Now considering the possibilities of copper, silver, and gold doing a Black Blade style Platinum and Palladium move, and the Federal Clean-up Fund paying to dispose of the toxic waste problem, ie. subsidized mine ops.(?) One ole miner in the area thinks they might be planning a 'country rock' copper excavation in conjuction with the tailings re-deposit. Hmmm...all dillusional conjecture on my part, but am really curious if you are aware of an (un-hedged) mine company pursuing this operation, or any other info regarding what is starting to look pretty interesting up here.

Or, are you planning any visits to historic old mine sites up-a-lake? If so, bring one of those "honored" ducks from the freezer, my wife is ausome in the kitchen.

Regarding your comments earlier today about "robbing Peter to pay Paul" - never works, you alway wind up with a short Peter.

Salutations
IronHead

Mr Gresham (2/13/2001; 1:33:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 48145)
Plan B from Outer Space
http://www.usagold.com/ANOTHER_PAGE.html
"5/3/98 ANOTHER (THOUGHTS!)

Mr. Kosares, Your friend thinks much of this gold owned by the USA. It could be used to back the dollar up to 25%, no? Many come to this thinking and hold a secure thought, that as last resort, this gold will save the day! I think, many persons never gained the understanding that the American gold is kept by the "Treasury", not the maker of your money, "The Federal Reserve". It is there for good reason, as the present world currency system is not a function of American law! If the US were to place gold in the hands of the US/CB as reserves for the dollar, the BIS could claim it! "

Anyone else see a Plan B (heavens! certainly not the Plan A?) here? Ditch the Fed and start over from the USTreasury?

justamereBear (2/13/2001; 1:29:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 48144)
John Doe 48142

Yep. Agreed!!

j'Bear

Pandagold (2/13/2001; 1:19:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 48143)
Elevator Guy, Black Blade (coffins and cemetaries)

Thanks for your humorous quips, I could go on but I feel we have enough 'grave' situations to contend with, so will leave it today. However, perhaps, (tomb)morrow?

Thanks again. It's nice to know we can all still find time to smile.

John Doe (2/13/2001; 1:17:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 48142)
@jambear
One would agree, if this were the first time in history where a previously sound currency was methodically and deliberately debased for fun and profit. Yes, the particular mechanisms for achieving these ends will almost certainly vary with the times and peoples involved, and these mechanisms will be advertised as new, improved, and unsinkable, but the net result will be predictably the same -- complete debasement. In modern finance terms, THE cabal is the group that originally designed central banking. The only "cabals" that exist today are the various groups that openly (and covertly) support, fine-tune, and extend the original design.

Black Blade (2/13/2001; 1:05:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 48141)
Gold-Eagle Gold Fund Index says bottom reached
Vronsky's GE forum at 9:25 am post declares that the bottom is in. Well let's hope so. I somehow am skeptical ... but then again, who knows. There's a lot of "capitulation" as Anglo and Barrick have capitulated, many "bugs" have capitulated, etc. That's a sign of a bottom as well. We'll just have to wait and see.

justamereBear (2/13/2001; 0:46:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 48140)
Carl H

A PS. I don't want to sound as if I am disageeing with you, more adding another dimension.

j'Bear

justamereBear (2/13/2001; 0:31:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 48139)
Carl H 48130

I have just been trying to catch up on my reading, and have yet to read the beginning if this debate, but feel strongly about some issues raised.

I am not much of an adherent to the varios cabal theories. To be sure, there are always some bits of hanky panky going on, but I think there are other perfectly logical explainations possible.

Go back, even as recently as the early 80's. There was very little paper gold, and no listed options of consequence. (They did exist)

Looking at it historically, we had various types of metal as representing a store of wealth, and a currency. Then we had bits of paper that represented a certain quantity of precious metal. Then we had a situation that the bits of colored paper were "backed" by gold. (supposedly freely exchangeable for gold)Then we had the paper only, true fiat, not backed by gold.

Notice the trend here. Gold has gradually been supplanted by fiat paper.

At all times to date, gold prices have had 2 major components. 1) as an industrial metal and 2) as a monetary vehicle. I have noticed in life that as ones attention becomes more and more captivated by the new girlfriend, less and less attention is paid to the wife. So too with gold. As its' monetary value became less, supplanted by the dollar particularly, the monetary component fell. Users placed less and less value on the monetary component. This is not something that happens overnight, it takes years. What does economic theory say about the price of buggy whips?

In the 80's there was something of a revolution in the financial world, the "invention" of financial engineering. It was in the late 80's/early 90's that options became common with the masses, and options became listed, and commonplace. Look up the financial section in your local newspaper for the 87 crash. There are gold futures listed, no options. So the paper market, and the "carry trade" was not very well developed.

The advent of financial engineering had all sorts of 29 year old MBA's, with a computer tucked under the arm, examining ways of wringing small inefficiencies out of the marketplace, and profiting hugely on huge volumes. The leasing of gold took off. The newly developed mathmatical tools by Black-Scholes, et al, fit the increase of computing power and the interest of the new finacial engineers perfectly. Conditions were ripe.

What happens when gold is leased by a bullion bank? Well, as you point out, the Bullion Bank borrows the gold at a low rate of interst, and immediately turns around and sells it on the open market. Then they buy, say bonds, at a higher rate of interest. Over the term of the lease, they pocket the diffence in income between the low lease rate of the gold, and the higher rate that they are getting for lending money to someone else in the frm of a bond.

Great Stuff. But let's look at what happened on the gold market. A wad of gold, THOUGHT to be real, has hit the market. And it is real to the extent that the Bullion Bank has sold real gold. Both the bank and the lender are placing their confidence in the liquidity of the market, and the ability of the Bullion Bank to buy back SOME gold, at some price, at the end of the lease.

So there has been more and more gold being dumped onto the market. And when more and more of something is offered on the market, what does economic theory say will happen to the price? We have been in a downtrend pricewise ever since this financial engineering began.

The US (and most other countries) has played this game for years when they borrowed money. They ASSUMED it never had to be paid back at the end of the term. "Why. we will just roll it over". The same is true in the gold leasing world. There is an assumption that the market is perfectly liquid. It is not. as anyone who witnessed 1987, or who studied 1929 will attest, there was plenty of stuff offered. But no fool was going to offer to buy it, when he was convinced that he could buy it 10 minutes later, at a lesser price. The Bids just dried up.

In 1987, there was such a fool, in the form of the PPT, who did offer to buy enough that the bidders began to doubt that they could buy cheaper in the next 10 minutes, and the market rebounded.

Back to the loans. There are only a few times when a lender will refuse to "roll over" a loan. Mainly it is when (s)he needs the loaned item for another purpose, or when (s)he doubts the ability of the borrower to repay.

Confidence, particularly in these kind of circumstances, is a very fickle thing. If you get a whiff of trouble, what is your first reaction? Get out first, and then check if you were right or wrong. You might lose a bit, but you won't lose it all.

Borrowing is somewhat like hard drugs. Because of the interest component, you need ever larger doses, just to get the same high.

That is not a huge immediate problem with fiat, where at the stroke of a pen, you can creat more. But in golds case, there is a finite amount around, and there comes a time when you cannot get more.

Much like Black Blades grasshoppers are learning, there is a very large, but very finite amount of petro products, and some day that problem has to be faced. IMHO petro prices are just entering the steep part of the curve upwards. Time will tell. The world is not demanding more gold than is available YET, but if any one of several triggers, such as a sudden lack of confidence in the dollar as a medium of exchange, upsets the balance, then expect everyone to head for the exits at the same time.

For the moment, there does not seem to be, other than in goldbug circles, any serious doubt about the dollar, or other fiat. People just can't seem to think of gold as denominated in other than dollars. That is silly. If the dollar goes to zero, which is the backbone of the goldbug argument, how do you calculate a price for an ounce of gold? What do you compare it with? Right now we calculate a bag of flour in dollars. If dollars go to zero, how do you calculate the price of that same bag of flour? Goldbugs are betting that you will caculate it in gold.

Certainly times such as these give rise to unholy combinations, as a few parties realize the bubble is about to pop, and they combine to try to save the system. Greenspan is doing a genius job at holding confidence togeather, to keep the system alive. IMHO. So to that extent, cabals are possible, and likely. All for the greater cause.

j'Bear

Black Blade (2/13/2001; 0:21:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 48138)
correction - bad connection tonight
Meanwhile the Grasshoppers have no cares in the world as others in the surrounding states will subsidize their laziness. "...and they danced, sang, and played all summer..."

Black Blade (2/13/2001; 0:19:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 48137)
Judge refuses Calif rate increase
http://www.vny.com/cf/news/upidetail.cfm?QID=159494
Well then, that just about does it. The holders of the Utes corporate paper were counting on recovering their costs. Now bankruptcy is the only option left. Meanwhile the Grasshoppers have no cre in the worls as others in surrounding states will subsidize their laziness. "...and they danced, sang, and played all summer..."

Mr Gresham (2/13/2001; 0:18:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 48136)
Plunging Savings
http://www.dismal.com/todays_econ/te_020801_2.asp
Capital gains kept the actual figure up through '99, but not afterward. Look out belo-o-o-o-w!

Black Blade (2/13/2001; 0:06:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 48135)
RE: VanRip, Journeyman, elevator guy/Pandagold, R. Powell, TG, J. Doe, and Mr. Gresham
VanRip #48085,

Yes, I know about the power situation in the Elko, NV area. This new power plant and pipeline have been proposed for some time now and might even be built despite Barrick's objections. The power situation is going to go critical for Barrick, Newmont, Anglo, Placer Dome and the few other smaller operations once those long-term power contracts begin to expire. California is sucking up power like a famished pig at the trough and now other states are subsidizing the Grasshoppers lack of restraint. The Barrick and Newmont operations are especially vulnerable, as a large portion of their current ore is sulfide/carbonaceous and these refractory ores must be processed under high pressure and high temperature in order to oxidize the ore for the heaps. That requires an extraordinarily large amount of "juice" to power these autoclaves. Operations in the Winnemucca, NV area such as Newmont's Twin Creeks Mine, Lone Tree Mine, and Placer Dome's Getchell mine will also be under the same difficulties. Barrick has an additional problem as they use an electrically powered "trolley" to pull their massive ore trucks up the ramps, and the electric shovels devour a lot of "juice" as well. The mining industry is going to suffer mightily. BTW, I was in Elko a couple of weeks ago and the place is looking a bit more depressed. I went to one of my favorite "watering holes" " and the place was nearly empty. I drove around some of the subdivisions and "For sale" signs are sprouting up like toadstools after a spring rain. I know of people who have just walked away and turned over their homes to the banks. Certainly not a good time to be a miner or even associated with the gold business. Many of my friends have left to work in construction and the oil patch and have vowed to never return. They themselves have a deep-seated scorn for the mining business now. I must admit, I been through several downturns in the gold business, but I have never seen employee morale so low. There is the feeling that if the POG is so low and that the producers are forward selling out several years, then there is no light at the end of the tunnel since these guys are supposedly insiders and in the know on the POG. This would also beg the question as to why would anyone in his or her right mind even consider let alone buy shares in these gold companies? They obviously believe that their industry is toast.

Journeyman #48086,

Today Cheeta (AG) goes to Washington to take center stage at the circus. While the Apes (senators) hoot, howl, and ooze with admiration, Cheeta will talk in riddles. The Apes will stare will glazed over eyes and mouths agape. They then will worship him as a God and pretend to have understood him. It will be like a scene out of "The Planet of the Apes." It's going to be almost obscene � keep the children outta the room! Personally I think he sold out for power and glory long ago. Maybe he has some messianic complex? I'm still waiting to be proven wrong, then again if the GATA suit is allowed; he may have to respond directly to some serious charges. Could be "Interesting."

Elevator guy and Pandagold,

About screws/nails in coffins. I have also wondered why there are walls/fences around cementaries. The ones that are in ain't gonna get out, and the one that are out don't wanna get in!

R. Powell, TG, and J. Doe,

I don't see where Harmony can get forced into an adverse situation here. I admit that I don't know the particulars of the deal or how it is structured. Fortunately Harmony has taken in an inherited hedge from the Ranfontein acquisitions and has effectively paid down that debt. I believe that they can cover this in short order as well. If there were any shenanigans to occur, I would think that it would be tied up in the courts for years and probably eventually settled favorably for cash. This is SA after all ;-)

Mr. Gresham #48134,

You can buy megawatts for future delivery. I found out early that one could buy just about anything using futures and various forms of derivatives. Sort of like the old Popeye cartoons when the character Wimpy would say: "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

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