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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 8/13/2000 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) ORO (08/13/00; 23:57:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 34911) Indirect and direct control, individual state and world government The 20th century is the struggle of the state against the individual, combined with the struggle of three factions for control of the state mechanism; corporatist, socialist, religious. Each of these comes with claims of "expert" capacity to know better than individuals what is good for them. The public has come to the intermediate ground between them of majoritarian representative dictatorship, which lets each side win some of the battle for control. The Buke camp stands in tactics with the "ends justify the means" groups like the Black Shirts.While Buke's preference for a Republic rather than an Empire is commendable (as is his opposition to world government), his support of state intervention in trade, education, labor relations, immigration, finance and myriad other areas is as much of an affront to Individual Sovereignty as any of the other statist camps (Bush, Gore, Nader, etc.).The grouping of people into arbitrary groups and the elevation to sainthood or demonization of these groups is the method of those competing for control of the state. Most favored by the state is "patriotism", in its modern meaning of adoration and the divinity of state authority over its geographical jurisdiction. A saintly group is defined that is a "we" opposed to a demonized group that is "them". None of these political factions is interested in supporting individual sovereignty. All of these factions are our enemies. None of them (including Buke) care much for freedom and the impartial and efficient operation of the popular courts in preserving the individual's control over his person and property, individual's freedom of interaction, and the enforcement of honest contract. Most of all, they oppose the superiority of individual sovereignty to that of any grouping. Buke is no different.Buke has a piece of all three competing ideologies of state control coupled with a modicum of support for a "Republic", which is quaint but non-specific.The methods of his active supporters, however, are most telling of all. They believe less in the process of convincing, than they believe in the superiority of their own ideas and the candidate that is to make them a reality. They believe in forcible imposition, just like the others. Perplexed (08/13/00; 23:26:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 34910) Journeyman 34900 It seems that you and I share the same philosophy on at least a few things. The following is a copy of a letter I wrote to the Seattle Times a couple of years ago. How much is our electoral process worth? What is the value of the blood shed to purchase and maintain this most valuable aspect of freedom, and why do many of the working middle class not vote? To some of us the answer is PRICELESS. We refuse to dignify the corruption perpetrated in the name of lawful government; defended by the courts in the name of "free" speech; and supported by federal law enforcement agencies without question, by casting our most valuable pearls before "leaders" wallowing as swine in a sewer lined with filthy money, people who experience no difficulty in pricing it. The value may vary, but it, as well as their office is always for sale to anyone, if the price is right. Like any prostitute, some value their services more highly than do others; operating from brothels with entry prices running into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, they garner a very exclusive clientele. Others, like the two men occupying our highest offices, now behave as pimps; bartering coffee, selling rides in the airplane, and renting rooms in the residence provided by tax paying citizens, many unable to adequately care for their families. While drug dealers, gangsters, and agents of foreign dictators are granted numerous audiences with the "most high," native American constituents are told that their measly one hundred thousanddollar contribution was insufficient to induce the "second most high"to make an appearance at one of their assemblies. Observing our manifested intelligence from the pinnacle of power, law abiding citizens are now viewed, with some justification, in total contempt by law makers who proclaim themselves above the law, as they sell our birthright for whatever the traffic will bear. With these examples, do we really need to ask why our children have so little respect for themselves, their contemporaries, common decency, and life itself; questions to which common sense and deductive reasoning screams answers? By extension are we not teaching them that any law, including murder, may be broken with impunity, and obstruction of justice winked at if: performed in the name of government- -you know the right people- -or--you have enough money, and we can't understand why our "civilization" is collapsing around our heads? If it is true that:-- conflict of interest, prostitution of political office, and corruption of law-enforcement is the "American Way" as one of our "distinguished" Senators proclaims. No laws have been broken, and therefore no investigation is necessary, as our nations Attorney General, Janet Reno, insists. Pimping and procurement of money for the stable of political prostitutes is an honorable function of the office of the Vice-Presidency; a duty which Al Gore shoutshe is proud to perform. There is nothing wrong with turning the residency provided as living quarters for his family, into an expensive motel, as President Clinton swears; then America has no future.Acknowledging these circumstances, the attack which they, and their apologist, perpetuate on the reputation of the National Rifle Association is indeed high compliment. Give politicians control of all weapons and trust our welfare to their "integrity" you've got to be kidding. Our nations founders were smarter than that. ARE WE? It wasn't printed in the Times!STILL PERPLEXED CharlieC (08/13/00; 23:13:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 34909) TEST Test Peter Asher (08/13/00; 23:05:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 34908) Al Fulchino (08/13/00; 21:02:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 34902) >>>>Much like one part of society would like to place all active school age boys on Ritalinand Prozac because they consider them to be counterproductive to a kinder and gentler nation,<<<<Yeah, that's what the Redcoats in "patriot" wanted; kinder and gentler colonists! If we had these drugs a few centuries ago, we'd all be driving to work at the King's castle in Ox-carts and you'd be receiving this message by carrier pigeon! Peter Asher (08/13/00; 22:51:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 34907) Journeyman - usagold.com msg#: 34900) Great post: I like that bumper sticker!!Such a quandary, this election business;With the altering of only seven words in the first seven lines and some deletion, Hamlet serves to appropriately comment:To vote , or not to vote,-- that is the question:---Whether ‘tis nobler to select and contribute to the suffering of outrageous fortune,Or to take arms against a sea of candidates and by opposing, end them? Or to try,-- to hope,--To hope, perchance to dream: -- ay, there's the rub:For who would bear the whips and scorns ofThe oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,The pangs of despised respect, the law's delay, the insolence of office, and the spurnsthat patient merit of the unworthy takes -----The undiscovered country, from whose bournNo traveler returns, — puzzles the will,And makes us rather bear those ills we haveThan fly to others that we know not of?Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all;And thus the native hue of resolutionIs sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought;and enterprises of great pith and moment,with this regard, their currents turn awry,And lose the name of action.-- soft you now! Black Blade (08/13/00; 21:58:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 34906) The Coming Oil and Natural Gas Crisis http://www.worldoil.com/WO_RESEARCH/Research/whitepaper.pdf Henri passed along this link a couple of days ago. I have been working through this document. Everyone should take a look. Copy it to disk and read it. If you can print it (49 pages), then do so. It certainly lays it on the line. It is a comparison of 1973 vs. 2000. An easy read with some very enlightening analysis. I encourage everyone to take the time to read this. It covers what we have been dicussing about the developing energy crisis. America did not learn its lesson in 1973. The lesson is about to be relearned 10 fold. Thanks Henri. Tonto (08/13/00; 21:18:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 34905) U N Pardon me I hit the wrong button If this vote passes it Wont matter who is in the Whitehouse .Call your Senator and have him vote against this when it comes up .This way more important than who becomes President BUY GOLD "TONTO" Tonto (08/13/00; 21:10:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 34904) The U N 'S Charter for Global Democracy Gold bugs Watch Sept. 6th The United Nations vote on a new charter. There goal is to change the way Governments operate. Thiis assembly will bring together the largest gathering of World Leaders ever to meet underone roof Tonto (08/13/00; 21:10:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 34903) The U N 'S Charter for Global Democracy Gold bugs Watch Sept. 6th The United Nations vote on a new charter. There goal is to change the way Governments operate. Thiis assembly will bring together the largest gathering of World Leaders ever to meet underone roof Al Fulchino (08/13/00; 21:02:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 34902) Why? /And thanx to those who need to bash Buchanan Why and how can two people see the same one thing and both call it something totally different? Much like one part of society would like to place all active school age boys on ritallin <sp?> and prozac because they consider them to be counterproductive to a kinder and gentler nation, while the other part of society would see these same young boys as normal, we have some people saying Pat Buchanan is anti-free trade. Now I just watched the man on C-Span and hespoke on trade. He re-iterated for the umpteenth time that he sees that free trade must be fair first! Now Ronald Reagan said the same thing! Who in this room is going to say he was a fascist?I am tired of being clear eyed and being told I do not see what I see. Reagan was attacked in the same way Buchanan is and it astonishes me. This is why I was so suprised this morning to read here of all places about fascism and Pat Buchanan. When I hear things like this, I hear ignornace, I truly do. How many times as parents have we had our children run up to us and go on and on about an altercation they had and both parties tell a tale that just does not fit the other? This is what we have here. And either I am right or the anti Buchanan people in this forum are right, ie that he is anti free trade and a fascist. Now here is the laughable clincher! We talk here so much about PPT's and cabals etc. We disdain talk that blasphemes the Jewish race. Don't we want gold to be traded freely, without maniuplation? Do we here think it is traded freely and fairly? Someone stand up here and tell me that the consensus is that the gold industry is a freely traded, unmanipulated market.Thanks to those who have felt the need to disparage Mr Buchanan. You have given me the chance to defend principle and unwittingly exposed yourselves. Goldfly (08/13/00; 20:53:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 34901) From the Jewish World Review http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell100499.asp From an opinion piece by Thomas Sowell:Buchanan is being accused of racism ingeneral and antisemitism in particular. Hisnew book, "A Republic, Not an Empire," issupposed to say that it would have beenbetter if Hitler had won World War II. This ispretty rough stuff. But, if Buchanan actuallysaid it, why don't his critics quote where hesaid it, instead of putting their words in hismouth?Just a few years ago, Pat Buchanan was being demonized because he said thatJohn Demjanjuk was not the same man asa concentration camp guard nicknamed "Ivan the Terrible" because of his sadistic treatment of Jewish inmates during World War II. Buchanan's position was taken asevidence of antisemitism. But would anyone say that a claim of mistaken identity about someone accused of murder was the same as justifying murder?In the end, the Israeli Supreme Court overturned Demjanjuk's conviction and set him free. Did anyone claim that the Israeli Supreme Court was antisemitic? Or admit that Buchanan might have had some basis for what he had said?No one knows what is in someone else's heart of hearts. But what we should all know and understand is how easy it is to smear -- and how dangerous it is to the country as a whole when dissenting views are silenced by smears and the threat of smears, rather than being debated with facts and logic. Journeyman (08/13/00; 20:07:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 34900) Fascism, Communism, Totalitarianism, Buchanan & voting @ALL Make no mistake, fascism by any other name is - - - communism - - - and/or totalitarianism. Don't take my word for it though - - "Nazi," the acronym for Hitler's so-called fascists, standsfor "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" or "NationalSocialist German Workers' Party," thus equating fascism withnational socialism. With an apparent flash of insight, head NaziJoseph Goebbels, {one of Hitler's head Nazis, }in a letter to aCommunist leader, assured him that "Nazism and Communism arereally the same thing. You and I are fighting one another, butwe are not really enemies," he wrote. -William L. Shirer, TheRise and Fall of the Third Reich, (Greenwich: Fawcett Crest,1959) So fascism = communism = totalitarianism. And it lurkseverywhere, not just in the Buchanan camp: ... As the slogans and themes of past American presidential campaigns indicate, [i.e. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask rather what you can do for your country, ...", etc.] the potential for fascism is always within us. Often we respond without realizing it. Fascism comes from our deepest longings for community, for solidarity, for safety in the face of a seething world. The fascist lurks in us all, I say. What would it take to let him loose -- even here, in me, in you? -Claudio G. Segre, "The return of fascism? It never went away", The Philadelphia Inquirer, Sunday, January 2, 1994 (and thanks to Jorge Amador) My read on Buchanan, for what it's worth, is that he is sortof a reluctant nationalist, and angry that he's been forced toretreat into that position. Once describing himself as, ~"thebiggest free-trader in the White House, next to Ronald Reagan,"he now says he opposes free-trade, "because it doesn't work." Like so many, he's been bamboozled by new-speak, inparticular, the new-speak of "free-trade" which really means inthese days of WTO, "equally restricted trade." But that's a longpost for another time. Therefore, if he's against new-speakfree-trade, he opposes the right thing but probably for the wrongreasons. You've got to admire the cannon-fodder he's made of himselfby standing up for what he believes and actually saying it rightout without two layers of script writers and spin doctorsinsulating him from the, ah, voters. But if I were going to vote, the last ticket I'd vote forwould be the Gush/Bore ticket. Nader would be the next to thelast I'd vote for, Buchanan would be the third to the last, andHarry Browne would be the fourth to the last. However, believing myself more sophisticated than theaverage voter, I realize in the greater scheme of things, my votemeans less than a single grain of sand on the beach at Waikiki. Except to me. And to me, my vote might imply I approve of thingslike taxing families into poverty and my granddaughter intoslavery, of bombing Serbian civilians and Kosovar villages intorubble to save NATO face. It might imply that since I played(voted), I should pay. Since no major election in history has been decided by onevote, I will cast my vote with the hands-down winners in nearlyall modern American elections. I will cast my vote with theLeague of Non-voters, that group that garnered the support ofover half of the eligible voters in the last presidentialelection. Their bumper sticker: "Don't vote; It just encouragesthe [kids of unmarried folks]."Regards,Journeyman lamprey_65 (08/13/00; 20:04:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 34899) Sundry Thoughts Well, guys...you know what they say, topics sure to cause argument -- politics and religion (throw music in there also).On Pat Buchanan...I take much of what he says as truth -- problem is, no one cares since we're in boom times. Anytime he mentions Goldman Sachs, he'll be labeled an Anti-Semite. The guy's been painted as a radical, and America does NOT like "radicals", just ask the ghost of Barry Goldwater.Unfortunately, he learned that "extremism in the pursuit of liberty" IS a vice - to the fat, dumb, and happy American, anyway.Basically, it's Tweedle-dee or Tweedle-dum again...not that it really matters, it will take a major economic crisis to fix the systemic problems we face...Americans are firm believers in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, and as far as the sheeple are concerned -- it ain't broke.[By the way, that phrase "free trade" is total nonsense -- free trade does not exist and I'm surprised how easily it is bantered about, even in this forum. There is a price to be paid for everything and in our case it's a lopsided definition of open markets and how the manufacturing sector operates. This will become apparent to those at the bottom of OUR economic ladder once they lose their service based jobs during the next recession but still won't be able to compete with overseas labor...if you're blue collar now, you'd better have saved something (preferably precious metals) before the crunch comes, 'cause this one's gonna bite!]On Gold...I'm becoming more and more convinced that the dollar will have to crash and the gold derivitives market with it in order for gold to be recognized again as holding the position it really never vacated...the ultimate form of payment. Without a dollar crises, it's just too easy to paper over the problems like 'They' did last fall.Cheers,Lamprey SHIFTY (08/13/00; 20:02:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 34898) Leigh I does have a ring , I noticed it at the time . I read it someplace a week or so ago. Could it have been Le Metropole Cafe? Maybe somebody else remembers reading that line.$hifty Leigh (08/13/00; 19:43:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 34897) Shifty You know, the phrase "to make the world safe for Goldman Sachs" has a familiar ring to it. Can't quite place it, though. Maybe he included it as a hidden message of support to us here. SHIFTY (08/13/00; 19:33:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 34896) Leigh I was wondering the same thing. Also I wonder if the jab at Goldman Sachs was from reading GATA stuff. Who knows?$hifty wolavka (08/13/00; 19:27:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 34895) gandalf the white sorry for the mis spelling wolavka (08/13/00; 19:23:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 34894) Glandalf the white open shows strength into the trend, at 281.60 we are strong, even 279.80 is strong so anything in this range is positive, as you see we are in this range, trend is up hang on. Leigh (08/13/00; 19:06:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 34893) Shifty, Peter Asher Points WELL made, you two! I would be thrilled to see Buchanan get elected. His leadership style might be disagreeable to some, but he is a Christian, he fervently upholds the Constitution, and he wants to see personal freedom and national sovereignty restored. The fact that 20% of his holdings are in physical gold says volumes. Do you think he ever reads our Forum? SHIFTY (08/13/00; 18:56:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 34892) ET / All ET You said "I think ORO was trying to point out Buchanan's arguments are similar to arguments made in the past by other fascists. " I don't know if you realized that when you used the word "other" it implies that he ( Pat Buchanan ) is a Fascists. I don't see this or hear it from Buchanan or even Perot.All: The media has done quite a number on these two fellow Americans. I have seen Foreign Affairs Magazine a publication of the Council on Foreign Relations. It is published five times annually . I think some of the people here need to go to the Library and read what these people believe. They feel they know what's best for you.They have big plans. Its no secret! You want to talk about control. Contact them and ask for information about the Council on Foreign Relations and a membership list. Don't worry you cant join, its for invites only. Try to find one of my favorites articles titled " A Hard Road to World Order " I cant recall the author and I seem to have misplaced my copy. I think it was June 1974 . Read that old article and see how far they have come in their dream to do an " End Run around the Constitution" ! They come right out and say it in print. Then tell me that Buchanan and Perot are not looking out for the USA. A few familiar names off the old membership roster I have from June 1988 :Les Aspin, James A Baker, David Brinkly, Tom Brokaw , William F Buckley Jr., Jimmy Carter, John H Chafee, Richard B Cheney , Lawerence S Eagleburger, Geraldine A Ferraro, Thomas S Foley, Gerald R Ford, Alan Greenspan, Jeane J Kirkpatrick, Henry A Kissinger, Dan Rather, David Rockefeller , David Rockefeller Jr. , John D Rockefeller, Rodman C Rockefeller, Diane Sawyer, Garrick Utley, George F Will, Mortimer B Zuckerman. Its no secret, take the time to check it out.For reprints and permissions: Contact Foreign Affairs , Reader Services, 58 East 68th Street New York , N.Y 10021Better to go to a good library. They should have the whole set.I think before people start calling fellow Americans nasty names they heard on the media, they should check out the media. Might it be they have an agenda? It looks that way to me. But what do I know. Check it out for your self.I wish to get back to Gold.$hifty Golden Hook (08/13/00; 18:54:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 34891) Holding and holding and holding. When Oh when OH Lord.Lord you know I've been holding my silver and gold for a long time, LORD. You know I distrust everybod but you. I have worked hard a long time LORD to get what I have. You know I haven't taken away my tithes and offerings from you Lord.Lord its been years holding onto these silver and gold. My hole is getting full and I don't want to dig another. These things keep getting heaverier everytime I have to check on them and make sure they are safe.Lord, It sure surprises me that I am the only one saving my money toward the future. I know my friends and others are putting away paper money because its easy to carry around. They may not be so stupid after all. But! You know how my dad was, If you don't have any gold or silver you aint worth nothing. Wish he had taken some of this with him. Guess he don't need any uo there. I can see him now, just shinning away on your streets.Lord theres another thing that I don't under stand.What is GATA? Peter Asher (08/13/00; 18:41:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 34890) Furthermore: Some of you have a problem with this??"And when I step out on that inauguralstand to take the oath _ when my hand goes up, their New World Order comescrashing down." Peter Asher (08/13/00; 18:17:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 34889) Today's controversy SteveH (08/13/00; 07:38:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 34860)Said: >>>I heard Mr. B. speak regarding the economy. He is not well-informed and as such can be his (and our) worst enemy.<<<<What would our reaction be if a new poster said the following?"Both Beltway parties today conspire to kill our beloved republic. Bothcolluded to create the WTO. Both voted $18 billion more for the IMF to makethe world safe for Goldman SachsLook at the record of this Congress that has the nerve to call itselfconservative. In two years, not one federal agency has been abolished, notone program ended. Federal spending is rising at the fastest rate since``Tip'' O'Neill was speaker of the House. Both parties are so steeped inpork they have to be checked every six months for trichinosis. Here are a couple of items from our $2 trillion federal budget: $500,000 fora study of swine waste management, $1.75 million to study the handling anddistribution of manure. Do these guys have enough sense to cross the street?Apparently not, because this year Congress voted $1 million for a study inUtah on _ you guessed it _ how to cross the street. My friends, it is timeto pick up the pitchforks and go down and clean out the pigpen.Back in 1991, Bush broke a pledge not to raise taxes. He said he had to do it to balance the budget. Bill Clinton raised taxes again, he said, to balance the budget. Well, the budgetis balanced; and it is time to repeal both the Clinton tax hike and the Bushtax hike and give the surpluses back to the people _ because that money doesnot belong to the politicians; it belongs to the people.We should eliminate all death taxes and end the government's role as federalgrave robber of the American family. We should end the marriage penalty andcut income taxes for all Americans. And we should impose a 10 percent tariffon imports, and use the money to end all taxes on small businesses. And weshould chop down the IRS until it is so small all the IRS agents will fit intothe building that is being vacated by the National Endowment for the Arts. As for Communist China, we should no longer accept one-sided trade deals,where we buy 40 percent of their exports and they buy 1 percent of ours."I think we would regard him as quite cognizant of the economic situation. ("Well informed" is not what we want. That's when someone is getting advise from elsewhere. They may or may not apply that information favorably.)So, what makes the message less valid when it is part of a Nomination acceptance speech? Does it become suspect because the person is seeking office? Could it be that the possibility of deeds, rather then words, is disturbing to some folks? Or maybe the concept of Tariff control is too suggestive of "Statism", and that in turn gets aligned with Statists who then get aligned with Fascists.Regardless of the current impossibility of a Reform or Libertarian candidate getting a substantial vote, every vote cast for them is one disenfranchises the current system that much more. There is no line to check off on the ballot that says "I am voting for the lesser of two evils." you vote for one of those "Stepford" Leaders and you have gone on record as to agreeing to them being in power. Golden Truth (08/13/00; 17:16:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 34888) OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.dieoff.org/page173.htm Sorry to break up the Nazi party here, everyone must read the above article, this is a "BOMBSHELL". Oil shortage as soon as the end of 2000!!! This has huge ramifications for the P.O.Gold. Also ties in with "Another & F.O.A" these people are not pulling your leg, it's all very REAL. Judge for yourself! G.T HI - HAT (08/13/00; 16:59:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 34887) Bonedaddy Well spoken sentiments. The heart of the matter.Love, Grace, and Gratitude. Au-some (08/13/00; 16:37:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 34886) (No Subject) "Nazi! Fascist!" This slur shows up every election cycle. This time around the target of choice is once again Pat "Crypto-Nazi" Buchanan. But is this mere name calling, or do real Nazis exist in fact? This is a valid question because while Naziism was defeated militarily in WWII, the intellectual heritage of Naziism and Fascism has never been repudiated.Naziism is perhaps most quickly apprehended by examining it's archnemesis - the Jew. This hatred of the Jew is more than racism or enmity towards "banking capitalism". It is really the hatred of a particular set of ideas and world view that is ascribed to the Jews and is their contribution, through their sacred literature, to Western thought. In short, the Jews are blamed for "inventing" the idea of the one transcendent God. For it is God and His transcendent moral authority as revealed in His Word, who is the true boogie man of the proto-Nazi mind set.George Steiner writes, "By killing the Jews, Western culture would eradicate those who had 'invented' God...". And concerning God's transcendent moral authority; "Conscience," said Hitler in Mein Kampf, "is a Jewish invention.". Not just Jews, but all people who would live by the Book are targets of Nazi venom - this of course means Bible believing Christians. Again in Mein Kampf Hitler writes, "With the appearence of Christianity, the first spiritual terror entered into the far freer ancient world.".I could go on but I think I've made my point. Naziism is at its core evil. Yes its Nationalism and its Socialism but viscerally and spiritually it is just plain wicked. And it reveals it's true nature most surely when it reaches out to strike down anyone who would take a stand on moral principles.The final irony is that Hitler's spiritual heirs still echo the same justification he used in Mein Kampf "...that this type of intolerance and fanaticism (that is, absolute morality) positively embodies the Jewish nature." Bonedaddy (08/13/00; 16:34:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 34885) Black Blade Msg:34855 Excellent analysis Black Blade. "When the cat is out of the bag", things certainly will change. I have come to realize that inflation has more than one face. On the one hand we treat inflation like our crazy Aunt in the attic, so we don't upset the "new economy". And on the other, the self righteous political and media elite love to wail abouthow high food and energy prices hurt the middle class. (They couldn't give a rat's @$$ about the middle class, but it makes for good sound bites.) Sooner or later the American consumer figures out that there's a problem and starts to curtail spending. I had an interesting lesson this weekend. I hauled seven tons of top quality alfalfa hay.(Yes, I am sore!) I have bought hay from this gentleman for at least five years. When we discussed price, he said I was a good customer and never complained, so I could have it at the same price as last year. From past conversations, I know that this man is a serious farmer. He knows his cost per bale in fertilizer, fuel, and electricity to run the irrigation pumps. So,why I wondered did the price not go up, as I had been expecting? Because this business man is still taking care of his customer. Remember, nobody's talking about our crazy Aunt in the attic. Later, when inflation is openly acknowledged, merchants will raise prices again and again saying "sorry, it's inflation you know". Reading the posts here at the forum, I sense a lot of consternation at times. When things don't play out as we clearly see that they should, sometimes we wonder out loud if we're the ones who are nuts. Those who post here are level headed and reasonable folks, but we don't live in an age of reason. We live in an age where GREED IS EXTOLLED AS A VIRTUE. Find a person who is truly content. It may be a challenge, but try. What we are apt to discover, if we study such a person, is almost a complete absence of lust. Lust and contentment cannot share the mind of the same person. Greed is simply the lust for money and the power it can bring. Not too many generations ago, some men lusted for GOLD. But that was minor in comparison to the lust of the "wizards" that create wealth by sorcery from the elements of paper and electrons. In the end of course, their "magic" will be exposed and their "money" will fail. GOLD will stand the test of time. Buy enough GOLD now to be reasonable and sensable. I would not advise anyone to borrow to do this. After the "new paradigm" is on the ash heap of history, along with all of the other times it was "different", the GOLD we've aquired with patience and forthought will get us through the lean times. The GOLD is simply a tool. As far as lust vs. contentment goes, I struggle to work this one out. I ponder, whether or not, the objects of my affection are things that promise to bring me temporary contentment? In my heart, I know that true contentment can only be found in the giving of thanks for what I already have. RossL (08/13/00; 15:24:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 34884) Buchanan and gold Buchanan likes gold and apparently has a large holding in precious metals. However, he is not a libertarian. Libertarians believe in the free exchange of goods, gold, and ideas across borders. Please let us frame the discussion of Buchanan on the subject of gold and real money. RossL (08/13/00; 15:24:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 34883) Sir HBM Sir Hill Billy Mitchell, Send me an email at rossl@iwon.com ET (08/13/00; 14:59:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 34882) Shifty Hey Shifty - thanks for your contributions here. If I might add a point or two to the political discussion. I think ORO was trying to point out Buchanan's arguments are similar to arguments made in the past by other fascists. In particular, the arguments for nationalism and economic self-sufficiency led the German people into two world wars. They are anti-free market concepts that glorify the state. For an interesting history of where these concepts can lead a society you might want to read "Omnipotent Government" by Ludwig von Mises. From the Introduction;"The main obstacle both to every attempt to study in an unbiased way the social, political, and economic problems of our day, and to all endeavors to substitute more satisfactory policies for those which have resulted in the present crisis of civilization, is to be found in the stubborn, intransigent dogmatism of our age. A new type of superstition has got hold of people's minds, the worship of the state. People demand the exercize of the methods of coercion and compulsion, of violence and threat. Woe to anybody who does not bend his knee to the fashionable idols!" Although I am no fan of the present situation, I could never support ideas that hold the state as superior to the individual. Buchanan's ideas are nothing new and have throughout history led to much loss of life and liberty. Gandalf the White (08/13/00; 14:54:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 34881) Question to Sir Wolavka wolavka said:(08/13/00; 14:45:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 34879)globex open tonitedec gold, An open @ 281.60 would be very positive for gold.===I understand that Dec Au settled at $280.3 == YES?Do you hope to see a jump of $1.30 at the open ?Please explain WHY ?<;-) Al Fulchino (08/13/00; 14:47:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 34880) Shifty In my mind, you were not the least out of line today. We are reminded that this is a Gold Forum. YET, are we to sit idly bye, when we see something that offends our sensibilities? I don't think so. Oro is offended by Pat Buchanan...he (Oro), had his say. Those that do not see Pat Buchanan as a Fascist had theirs. This whole bit is a footnote to the history of this Forum's life and will likely not be remembered or even call to the need of the Forum's founder for his intervention. Suffice it to say that the participants of this forum are not soley interested in gold. Other themes will invariably find their way into a conversation. There is little that can or should stop it either. It has its place. wolavka (08/13/00; 14:45:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 34879) globex open tonite dec gold, An open @ 281.60 would be very positive for gold. Patriot (08/13/00; 14:43:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 34878) Gandalf the White re point of order Posters are burning up the bandwidth this slow sunday afternoon so something is better than nothing. ;) As to gold, it seems to this feeble mind that the enigma of gold has been disected, hacked, butchered so many times, is there any wonder that nothing of any consequence is to be gleaned by further discussion? Politics is entwined in every aspect of our gold enigma. IOW's, honest politics, honest money. Crooked politics, dishonest money. Allow me to remind one and all that gold will be manipulated by the money changers in charge. Do we want a courageous man who has sacrificed his career and former good standing to fight the good battle against the fiat people with almost insurmountable odds against him, or do we want to continue in the same vein of supporting bad politicians and parties? The choice is ours. SHIFTY (08/13/00; 14:32:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 34877) PPU Periodic Ponzi Update Nasdaq 3,789.47 + Dow 11,027.80 = 14,817.27 divide by 2 = 7,408.63 PonziUP 131.08 from last week$hifty Gandalf the White (08/13/00; 14:31:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 34876) Question to Schippi schippi says:(08/13/00; 06:52:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 34856)Select Gold ( FSAGX ) 120 Market day Charthttp://www.SelectSectors.com/agpm120.gifBreakout in progress?===Whereas the upturn in the POG on Fri continued the upward channel -- IT appears that Monday's action would require a 7.5% + price increase to really show a "Breakout" of this slowwwwwwly moving upward channel of 75 days. Am I reading your charts correctly ?<;-) SHIFTY (08/13/00; 14:25:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 34875) Gandalf I will try. But I could not let ORO's post stand unchallenged!I apologize if I started something I should not have. I thought the fact that Buchanan was a gold bug made it a point of interest here!$hifty Gandalf the White (08/13/00; 14:16:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 34874) Point of ORDER ! The Hobbits have now gotten into a big food fight just as the those at the USAGOLD Forum have degenerated into a POLITICAL discussion ! -- I agree with CoBra(too) #34870 !!!STOP the political discussion and let us talk about GOLD.<;-) Marius (08/13/00; 14:03:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 34873) A funny Freudian slip All,There's no way I want to get drawn into the debate over whether Patty Patty Buke Buke is or is not a fascist. What is clear is that he is irrelevant to this election. Meet The Press indicated today that he is at 2% in the polls, can't even depend on the rest of his party supporting him, may not be able to get his paws on the millions in Reform Party funds, and will be excluded from the debates. Stick a fork in him (he's done), and get over it.The header of this message refers to a humorous gaff I made in a conversation about the election with my visiting mother-in-law this weekend. As often happens, my mouth was moving faster than my brain, and by accident I made a slip that was telling, as well as funny. I referred to the 2 major candidates as Bore and Gush. It's been good for major yuks all weekend. Feel free to use it "liberally".M SHIFTY (08/13/00; 13:53:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 34872) ORO ORO : You surprise me. If you cant atack the message you attack the messinger,with name calling.Did you get a GOP or DNC talking points memo? Your Post :ORO (08/13/00; 01:27:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 34853)Pat the rathttp://www.west-teq.net/~dmf/italy.htmPukanan deserves no support. I think we should compare your Mussolini link to Pat Buchanan to see if there is any truth in it at all!Mussolini's Rise to PowerThe new state of Italy wa far from being a great success in the years before1914; the strain of the First World War on her precarious economy and thebitter disapointment at her treatment by the Versailles treaty causedgrowing discontent. Between 1919 and 1922 there were five differentgovernments, all of which were incapable of taking decisive action that thesituation demanded. In 1919 Benito Mussolini founded the Fascist party whichwon 35 seats in the 1921 elections. At the same time there seemed to be areal danger of a left-wing seizure of power; in an atmosphere of strikes andriots, the fascists staged a 'March on Rome' which culminated in KingEmmanuel III inviting Mussolini to form a government in October 1922.Mussolini remained in effective power until July 1943. ( $HIFTY:correct me if I'm wrong but, I don't think we have had five different governments in the entire history of the United States? I justremember the corrupt One we have now! )Mussolini's Rise to Power / Fascism / Mussolini's Italy / Successes /Unsolved Problems / QuestionsFascismExtreme Nationalism - an emphasis on building up the greatness and prestigeof the state, with the implication that one's own nation is superior toother.( $hifty : ORO do you consider any and all Nationalism to be consideredExtreme?)Totalitarian System of Government - that is a complete way of life in whichthe government attempted to control and organise with strong discipline asmany aspects of people's lives as possible. This was necessary to promotethe greatness of the state, which was more important than the interests ofthe individual.One-Party State - there was no place for democracy. Fascism was particularlyhostile to communism, which accounts for much of its popularity. The fascistparty members were the elite of the nation and great emphasis was places onthe cult of the leader/hero who would win mass support with thrillingspeeches and skilful propaganda.( $hifty: Sounds like what we have now to me. )Economic Self-sufficiency - (autarchy) was vitally important in developingthe greatness of the state; the government must therefore direct theeconomic life of the country (though not in the Marxist sense of thegovernment owing factories and land).( $hifty: I try to be self-sufficient . It saves me money. What do youfind wrong with economic self-sufficiency? The word (autarchy) is not in my dictionary however the word (autocracy) is ,if that is what they are shooting for. The definition of the word (autocracy) in my dictionary is : 1.Unlimited authority over others, invested in a single person. 2. A nation or community ruled by an autocrat. Well to be fair we need to see the definition of an autocrat. ( Autocrat ) 1. a ruler who holds unlimited powers. 2. a domineering person.)Sounds unconstitutional to me . That fella Bill Clinton had better watch it with those executive orders, he could be considered an autocrat by many! Military Strength and Violence - were an intergal part of the way of life.Mussolini himself remarked, "Peace is absurb: fascism does not believe init." Hence they fostered the myth that they had seized power by revolution,they allowed the violent treatment of opponents and critics, and pursued anaggressive foreign policy.($hifty: I don't remember Buchanan saying anything like that do you?)Mussolini's Rise to Power / Fascism / Mussolini's Italy / Successes /Unsolved Problems / QuestionsMusolini's ItalyAll parties except the fascists were suppressed. Opponents of the regimewere either exiled or murdered. Socialist leaders Giacomo Matteotti andGiovanni Amendola were both beatn to death by the fascists. After 1926, whenMussolini felt secure in power the violence was greatly reduced. Althoughthe parliment still met, all important decisions were taken by the fascistGrand Council whcih did as Mussolini told it; in effect Mussolini, whoadopted the title Il Duce (the leader), was the dictator.($hifty: This sounds more like Clinton and the two parties in congress wehave now.! I think if you change the word Fascist to Globalist you will see my point. )In local government elected town councils and mayors were abolished andtowns run by officials appointed from Rome. In practice the local fascistparty bosses, known as ras, often had as much power as the governmentoffficials.A strict press censorship was enforced in which anti-fascist nespapers wereeither suppressed or theri editors replaced by fascist supporters. Radio,films and the theatre were similarly controlled.($hifty: Sounds like the United Nations to me!)Education in schools and universities was closely supervised, teachers hadto wear uniforms, new textbooks were written to glorify the fascist system.Children were encouraged to criticise teachers who seemed to lack enthusiasmfor the party. Children and young people were forced to join the governmentyouth organisations which indoctrinated them with the brilliance of the Duceand the glories of war.( $hifty:"Education in schools and universities was closely supervised ( sounds like the current Dept. of education we have today. The difference with today is that kids in some public schools wear uniforms to cut down on gang violence over Gang Colors. This part " new textbooks were written to glorify the fascist system." Again change the word Fascist to Global and it fits today.)Corporate State - The government tried to promote co-operation betweenemployers and workers and to end class warfare in what was known as theCoporate State. Fascist controlled unions had the sole right to negotiatefor the workers and both unions and employers' associations were organizedinto corporations and were expected to co-operate to settle disputes overpay and working conditions. Strikes and lockouts were not allowed. By 1934there were 22 coporations each dealing with a seperate industry, and in thisway Mussolini hoped to control the workers and direct production. Tocompensate for their loss of freedom, workers were assured of such benefitsas free Sundays, annual holidays with pay, social securtity, sports andtheatre facilities and cheap tours and holidays.( $hifty: A Government controlled union? I don't remember Pat Buchanan suggesting anything of the sort! Also ORO I don't know about you but I like a worker's union. I wish that the TV commercials for the union label would return, complete with the catchy little tune! And that we STOP supporting slave labor overseas. I think you should look into what happened in Mingo County West Virginia with the miners in the coal fields in 1920 , better yet rent the movie Matewan. Its a true story ! 1987 four star film. Why is it I wonder when a person comes out in support of the US Constitution , the Bill of Rights, and our founders Declaration of Independence he is labeled ( add derogatory word here !) there lots to choose from. Just the ones I have heard since 1992 ,directed at Perot and Buchanan are too numerous to list . When you cant attack the message I guess all you have left is to attack the messenger. I fear that if you were to ask some public school kids if they knew there rights? You would get the reply " I have the right to remain silent, anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law! ect .ect. ect.Catholic Church - Mussolini left religion outside the control ofthegovernment. He had his children baptised and married their mother in thechurch. He passed laws to make swearing in public a crime and allowedcrosses to be hung in public buildings. He made religious educationcompulsary in Italy. In 1929 he signed a treaty with Gasparri. The LateranTreaty gave the Pope 750 million lire in compensation for the land takenfrom him when Italy was united in 1870. It made the Vatican City anindependent state with its own army, police force, law courts, and postoffice. The ending of the long lasting breech between the church and Italiangovernment was Mussolini's most lasting and worthwhile achievement.Mussolini's Rise to Power / Fascism / Mussolini's Italy / Successes /Unsolved Problems / QuestionsSuccessesIndustry - gave government subsidies where necessary so that iron and steelproduction doubled by 1930 and artificial silk production tenfold.Hydro-electric power doubled by 1937.Battle of Wheat - encourages farmers to concentrate on wheat production in adrive for self-sufficiency; by 1935 the wheat imports had been cut by 75 percent.Land Reclamation - a program was started and the Pontine Marshes around Romewere drained and reclaimed.Public Works Program - this was designed to reduce unemployment. It includedthe building of motorways, bridges, blocks of flats, railway stations,sports stadiums, schools and new towns on reclaimed land.END( $hifty : ORO I don't think your comparison holds any water, I'm sorry. You had better send back the talking points memo to who ever sent it to you. Tell them lies wont work, and they are hurting your credibility! I think we can agree that things are going to get interesting in the next few months. I hope we can all stick to the facts ! )$hifty Pete (08/13/00; 13:13:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 34871) ORO, Hill Billy Mitchell, Al and others http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3996caa17f70.htm This link has many pro and con discussions re: Buchanan. Read carefully if you so desire and decide what is best for our nation honestly. The price for being a Patriot is not cheap and is usually damaging to ones psyche.PS: Got physical gold? If not, get it while it's cheap. CoBra(too) (08/13/00; 12:49:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 34870) If I may - I would beg you, my US-friends ... ... though it's your vote I'm lightly pushing aside, well not lightly either - not to have this forum swamped by politics - alone. There's enough of political dynamite in today's economics and it will probably not make a lot of difference if you my US friends squabble about the first, second and maybe third contender to the throne - even if I would have my preferences as well, alas no vote! - I would feel the reality of the absence of sound economics for too long will impress its effects shortly, notwithstanding and wholly disregarding who's at the helm of the USS "destroyer" of their own paper 'paradise'. Forgive my meddling - regrets cb2 Pete (08/13/00; 12:41:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 34869) Hill Bill Mitchell You are now a member of the PC crowd. You and many others have bit hook, line and sinker the demonization and mistruths about as you call him, Buke the Duke, a very disingenuous remark about a true conservative who has the courage to tell it like it is, and has served his country under various administrations until he finally saw what the major parties have turned into....FRAUDS! Pete (08/13/00; 12:30:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 34868) HI-HAT Thank you for the suggestion. My options are still open; I will consider carefully for anyone save Bush(frick) or Gore(frack). Hill Billy Mitchell (08/13/00; 10:32:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 34867) ORO needs no defence I quite agree with Sir ORO - Buke the Duke is a Fascist.This is no defence of ORO. He is capable of offering up his own appologetics.More later today on this.HBM Al Fulchino (08/13/00; 09:29:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 34866) TedW Thanks for the site info. In fact I have had minor correspondence with Jesse Peterson. What a well rooted man he is. How is Oregon life these days? Al Fulchino (08/13/00; 09:23:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 34865) Oro???? Oro, someone might be using your nick, surely! Pat Buchanan equated with a Mussolini black shirt? You are of course entitled to your opinion. I am just a bit shocked that this opinion came from you. While I think Mr Buchanan has a snowballs chance in hell of being elected, he is not a fascist. And before we go down the path we have seen on this forum before in regards other issues and ethnic groups, I think it would be wise to remember that Mr Buchanan has always stuck to the conveyance of ideas, issues and ideals. As I remember the black shirts and the brown shirts tried to convey their message with violence both before and after they had power of the government behind them. Buchanan has not done this and has given no reason for you to equate him with them.You are certainly in a league of your own on economic issues. A field which you would have to concede 100 points to me in order to level the playing field. But on this issue you are trailing me my USAGold Forum compatriot. HI - HAT (08/13/00; 08:50:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 34864) Pete Why not waste less of your vote and go Libertarian.Abolish IRS and steamline of Government involvmentsin the REPUBLIC sounds like a good platform. Pete (08/13/00; 08:11:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 34863) Pat Buchanan http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j081100b.html Pat the rat.....NOT ORO, I enjoy reading many of your fine posts, save this one is beneath you. Has it ever occurred to you that calling Pat a fascist plays into the hands of the liberal biased media and rhetoric of the Clintonistas to demonize and destroy those that are a threat to the status quo? The current two party system(An oxymoron) does not represent the people but big money interests that really has the true access to the political hacks as they serve lip service only to the people.If anyone votes for the republicRATS, then, IMHO, they do not care for reform or change in the direction of our government. Nobody wants to hear the truth or ignore the signs and facts of a government gone wild and deteriorating rapidly. We get what we deserve when we stop thinking for ourselves and allow the media and government to hypnotize us.I for one will vote my conscience. My vote for Buchanan is not a wasted vote as many will say because a vote for either of the entrenched parties is in reality a vote for one party against the people and for the power elite. IMHO! Pete (08/13/00; 08:01:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 34862) (No Subject) test auspec (08/13/00; 07:45:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 34861) XAU VS. XCU Good morning, It is clearly time ror a new gold and silver index that represents the interests of those in the pro-gold fold. This index, of course, should go higher as the POG rises so overly hedged companies should not be included. Copper producers, zinc producers, and kryptonite producers need not apply. I have a few recommendations for appropriate companies,but a total of six or seven companies should do the trick. Harmony Gold is appealing as well as Neumont [sp?]. An Australian producer should be included. The new Goldfields would get the job done. What are the best silver reps, Freeport, Coordealine {sp?}? At this point, as well as most of the last year, the XAU has been as dysfunctional as the First Family. It is best to distance ourselves from both. How can a representative index be accomplished? I think this site is as good as any. The Best, AUSPEC [NOT CUSPEC] SteveH (08/13/00; 07:38:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 34860) http://www.forbes.com/forbes/99/0503/6309138a.htm Interesting.I agree with ORO. I heard Mr. B. speak regarding the economy. He is not well-informed and as such can be his (and our) worst enemy. Henri (08/13/00; 07:18:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 34859) Shifty Cronkite's ideal Cronkite's paradise per your post"Those of us who are living today can influence the future of civilization. We can influence whether our planet will drift into chaos and violence, or whether through a monumental education and political effort we will achieve a world peace under a system of law where individual violators of that law are brought to justice....We need a system of enforceable world law - a democratic federal world government - to deal with world problems," noted Cronkite. Walter seems to feel that the US was made great by the ideals of democracy which the world should adopt to become safe for mankind in general. He dances on the graves of the founding fathers who NEVER intended the US to become a democracy. It was in fact one of their greatest nightmares. The US was created as a constitutional republic, NOT a democracy. It was the original structure that made the US great, not the tenants of democracy HI - HAT (08/13/00; 07:03:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 34858) Black Blade Thanks for your posting efforts. I think your perspectiveis Rock solid. Ulysses (08/13/00; 07:00:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 34857) Black Blade re #34837 http://www.usagold.com They are whores doing their master's bidding. schippi (08/13/00; 06:52:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 34856) Select Gold ( FSAGX ) 120 Market day Chart http://www.SelectSectors.com/agpm120.gif Breakout in progress? Black Blade (08/13/00; 06:51:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 34855) "The Big Picture" - The Coming Oil and Gas Crisis The latest bogus PPI numbers were intended to show that there is weak inflation growth. Though retail sales are up, the talking heads in the financial media are touting that there is now proof of a "soft Landing" engineered by Cheeta (A.G.) and the FED. It is going to be tough to hide the growing pressure coming from the oil and gas sector. Last year crude oil dropped to its lowest level in 11 years. OPEC flexed a little muscle and put the fear of Allah into the rest of the world as crude prices tripled in short order. The net result of course was that consumers and politicians began to panic and call for investigations, and sanctions. The rest of the world realized that OPEC was not dead, but had had enough of the low prices that it received for its petroleum. OPEC is not about to let oil prices drop so low again. Kiss those days good-bye! The really big story is not oil, but Natural Gas! NG has remained near its highs, even as oil has moved about in a range of $27.00 to $32.00/bbl. NG is likely to move higher irregardless of what happens to oil prices. One simple fact is clear, what ever happens with oil, we can always import more, though at a price. The problem with NG is more problematic. The low prices of oil have had the result of reduced exploration for petroleum. Bankers are not likely to fund NG exploration when oil prices are low, since they look at NG as a by-product. But unlike oil, we have to produce are own NG supplies. Only 15% of NG supplies are imported (from Canada via pipeline). That figure is climbing rapidly, but Canada will be needing their own domestic supply and are not about to deprive their citizens for the sake of US Americans who demand cheap NG. Add to this equation that drilling has been slow and supplies are short. Most of our major NG fields are overly mature as they have been producing for a long time and are declining at a fast rate. There is some NG left, however, what isn't flared off from oil wells as a waste product, is either in deep water offshore, or in small onshore pools. Deep water drilling is very expensive, and onshore pools are small and require a lot of drilling. Most offshore drill-rigs are tied up in drilling for oil, and onshore rigs are too small in number. Currently, there are only about 600 onshore rigs in operation. This is only about a third of the number needed to rebuild the declining reserves in the US. The bankers and investment houses once again have missed the "Big-Picture" While they focus on oil, the real developing story is in NG, especially as communities such as San Diego, California are experiencing a doubling of utility rates. NG is the wave of the future for expanding electrical power. It is efficient and clean compared to other alternatives, though a case could be made for Nuclear power. Building new nuclear power plants is a politically suicidal endeavor, and building coal-fired power plants are impossible due to EPA regulations. Wind-mills require wind and "offend the eyes" as well as kill birds (sorry PETA). Solar requires sunshine, and there are those pesky clouds to contend with, not to mention the large tracts of open space required for fields of solar panels. NG powered electrical plants win by default. NG prices are high in spite of last years warm winter and the usual weak summer season. NG storage levels are at 45% below last year. This coming winter could put a severe strain on NG supplies, especially if it is a normal or severe winter. Cheeta will have a hard time engineering a "soft-landing" when it becomes impossible to bury the cost of energy in bogus PPI and CPI numbers. More and more will question benign inflation numbers, when they are shivering in the dark as a result of high cost energy, high cost goods and services, and rolling blackouts. Cheeta claims not to consider the PPI and CPI numbers when the FED debates raising/lowering rates. Even this monkey knows that the numbers are bogus. When the "cat is out of the bag", then inflation will only be too obvious. The resulting recession will be long and severe, as petroleum prices will be based on fundamentals such as supply-demand rather than political or policy considerations. Previous recessions in the postwar era were preceded by petroleum crises. In the 1970's it was the OPEC embargo, in the early 1980's it was the Iran-Iraq war, in 1990, it was Desert Storm. We have been forewarned. Look at the big picture. The "New Economy" runs on oil! The "New Paradigm" theorists just don't get it! There are more and more computers and high tech toys on the market than ever before. They require energy! They require a lot of energy! What is going to happen with the resulting added strain on the electrical grid? What will happen as the recovering emerging markets begin to compete for the world's oil? The only choice is conservation of energy forced by higher prices. What does this add up to? The coming recession is going to shake the belief of many in the "New Economy". Those of us who bought petroleum stock, drillers and services stock are looking good right now. There is another depressed sector that will benefit as the coming recession arrives on the scene. That sector is Precious Metals! Gold and Silver are under-valued and sell at a deep discount in US dollars. History has shown that Gold and Silver have always been good insurance to balance one portfolio. These metals are an anchor in stormy seas. The seas are choppy and the dark clouds are appearing on the horizon. The coming energy crises have given us a clear warning. JavaMan (08/13/00; 06:26:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 34854) Sir Hill Billy, re Cronkite on NWO... If we are to avoid a nuclear World War II, "a system of world order - preferably a system of world government - is mandatory," declares Walter Cronkite in his recent book A Reporter's Life. "The proud nations someday will see the light and, for the common good and their own survival, yield up their precious sovereignty, just as America's thirteen colonies did two centuries ago. When we finally come to our senses and establish a world executive and parliament of nations, thanks to the Nuremberg precedent we will already have in place the fundamentals for the third branch of government, the judiciary." Commenting on this paean to world government, the Media Research Center suggests that Cronkite has proven "Trilateral Commission paranoids correct." Source: The New AmericanInsider Report, p.11May 12, 1997 ORO (08/13/00; 01:27:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 34853) Pat the rat http://www.west-teq.net/~dmf/italy.htm Pukanan deserves no support. His understanding of economics falls between non-existent and falacious.His "in group's" behavior in the Reform nomination process is completely out of the fascist playbook of the Mussolini black shirts. To find more of Pat the copy Cat see the well tested ideas in the above URL.He is not your salvation, just a more extreme version of more of the same. ORO (08/13/00; 01:19:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 34852) Journeyman - "sell to whom" O'Neil, founder of Investor's business daily had devised a methodology that includes the assessment of institutional ownership such that stocks that are heavilly represented in institutional holders' portfolios make for bad long term investments. The reason he gave for that was that the institutions (pensions and funds), can't buy the float of a stock if they already own it all, they can only sell. Since O'Neil is widely read, it should come as no surprise that people within the fund management industry are jumping ship.For a long while, they were operating price support operations that have become known as "window dressing". In these operations, funds attempt to use the illiquidity of stocks in their portfolios (due to the combined ownership of nearly the entire float by funds and insiders) to push the price up towards the end of a reporting period.This was done with great vigor by many fund managers including Janus in internet stocks. The shorts were regularly squeezed as the stock in young companies with no track record and questionable business plans were trading at great valuations - a situation that attracted short sellers. Using the fact that the free market float was small relative to the short position, the price could be spiked readilly so long as insiders were locked up by the terms of the IPO, or Employee stock options were not vested. Index fund's brainless buying of new low float entrants into the indexes was providing a "fool of last resort" to buy a bulky portion of the company's stock. The technology funds and the Megafunds (e.g. Janus) have grown to such size relative to index funds, that the stocks entering indexes do not enjoy continuing rises in prices after the initial purchaces for the indexers. Today, gains in locked up stock and stock options is realised in the markets through financial packaging by intermediaries, that have stepped up to undo the benefits to a company of the employee stock option plan, and the stock lock-ups following an IPO. Furthermore, stock lockups from the prior IPOs of 1998 and 1999 are freeing stock supply that is coming to market in great quantities, that overwhelm the rather meager cash balances that institutionals have on hand. Window dressing, though effective for 2-3 days, is not substantially effective in the 1-2 week period.The current supply of IPO and ESOP stock and the incapacity of the funds to unload onto indexers, are both results of their prior success in "tape painting" and "window dressing" which attracted more IPOs and made their stock more plentiful, and caused the funds to grow relative to index funds.We now wait for the news of it "not working anymore" to be absorbed broadly into the market's thinking. SHIFTY (08/13/00; 01:00:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 34851) Pat Buchanan speach A few more excerpts out of Buchanan's speech. (WASTE)Here are a couple of items from our $2 trillion federal budget: $500,000 for a study of swine waste management, $1.75 million to study the handling and distribution of manure. Do these guys have enough sense to cross the street? Apparently not, because this year Congress voted $1 million for a study in Utah on _ you guessed it _ how to cross the street. My friends, it is time to pick up the pitchforks and go down and clean out the pigpen. If you want real reform, vote Reform. ( Taxes)Back in 1991, I challenged a president named Bush because he broke a pledge not to raise taxes. He said he had to do it to balance the budget. Bill Clinton raised taxes again, he said, to balance the budget. Well, the budget is balanced; and it is time to repeal both the Clinton tax hike and the Bush tax hike and give the surpluses back to the people _ because that money does not belong to the politicians; it belongs to the people; and I will give it all back. Here is how: We will eliminate all death taxes and end the government's role as federal grave robber of the American family. We will end the marriage penalty and cut income taxes for all Americans. And we will impose a 10 percent tariff on imports, and use the money to end all taxes on small businesses. And we will chop down the IRS until it is so small all the IRS agents will fit into the building that is being vacated by the National Endowment for the Arts. As for Communist China, we will no longer accept one-sided trade deals, where we buy 40 percent of their exports and they buy 1 percent of ours. And I will tell them: Fellas, either you stop this persecution of Christians, and these threats to our friends on Taiwan, and rattling missiles at the United States, or you fellows have sold your last pair of chopsticks in any mall in the United States of America. ( MORE)The Democratic Party will never reform education because it is held hostage by the teachers' unions. Republicans will never shut down the IMF, because if they did, the corporate lobbyists would cut off their room, board, tuition, beer and gas money. Neither Beltway party will drain this political swamp, because to them it is not a swamp; it is a protected wetland, their natural habitat. They swim in it, feed in it, spawn in it and are as happy there as Brer Rabbit was in his briar patch. $hifty Journeyman (08/13/00; 00:37:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 34850) As for Cronkite - - - If I remember correctly, "Cronkite" translates as "a small discomfort in the head," sort of like a cold, sinus condition, etc., which is just about what his notions of "World Fascism" are worth.Regards,Journeyman Journeyman (08/13/00; 00:30:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 34849) Drucker in support of MK @USAGOLD (8/12/2000; 9:28:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 34820) "But the holdings of large pension funds---even of medium-sizedones---are so big that they simply cannot be sold. The onlymarket for them is other pension funds. Pension funds, in otherwords, can neither manage a business nor walk away from it. Theyhave to make sure that the business is being managed." -Peter F.Drucker, Post-Capitalist Society, (New York: HarperCollins 1993),p. 81This pretty much explains why those guys are "stymied."Regards, j. Hill Billy Mitchell (08/13/00; 00:28:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 34848) Cronkite ShiftyThanksHBMI'm sleepy, good nite Hill Billy Mitchell (08/13/00; 00:23:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 34847) Interest rate inversions Why do the spreads between the longer and the shorter rates invert first?Multiple choice:a) because the money markets are driven by short-term conditions and react almost instantaneously to the actions of the Fedb) because the bond market is locked into long-term positions and is slow to change directions without confirmation that the directional change is of a long-term naturec) long bond buyers are more willing and able to force the Fed to prove that it is serious and long-term when directional change occurs.d) all of the abovee) none of the above SHIFTY (08/13/00; 00:14:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 34846) Hill Billy Mitchell http://x52.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=599311043&CONTEXT=966146476.150077448&hitnum=0 This may help. It appears Walter wrote it in his book "A Reporters Life."$hifty ======================================================== The President noted that "....we become more of a federalist world when the United Nations takes a more active role in stopping genocide...and we recognize mutual responsibilities to contribute and pay for those things". The same month, Walter Cronkite received the World Federalist Association's Norman Cousins Global Governance Award for his promotion of world government in his autobiography "A Reporters Life." "Those of us who are living today can influence the future of civilization. We can influence whether our planet will drift into chaos and violence, or whether through a monumental education and political effort we will achieve a world peace under a system of law where individual violators of that law are brought to justice....We need a system of enforceable world law - a democratic federal world government - to deal with world problems," noted Cronkite. 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