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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/12/2005
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Goldilox (9/12/05; 22:41:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 135915)
Fisher statement
snip:

"He also said government spending to offset the financial hardship of the hurricane must be monitored by the central bank, which should not get sucked into paying for this through cheaper money."

-Goldilox

Now there's an Orwellism. The CB "paying for" recovery with "free money!"

As Mogambo would say, "HAHAHAHA!

Druid (9/12/05; 22:24:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 135914)
Forest Service Proposal Would Speed Up Grasslands Oil Drilling
http://www.enn.com/today.html?id=8764

"September 12, 2005 � By Dale Wetzel, Associated Press
BISMARCK, N.D. � The U.S. Forest Service will propose regulations to shorten the environmental reviews of small oil-drilling projects in national grasslands, an Agriculture Department official said Friday.

The proposal would affect grasslands covering about 4 million acres in a dozen states in the Great Plains and West.

Oil exploration is off limits in some areas of the national grasslands, but where drilling is allowed, a required environmental assessment takes a minimum of six months. North Dakota Gov. John Hoeven complained some of the reviews were taking three times that long, delaying projects that could help the economy.

Mark Rey, a USDA undersecretary, outlined a proposal Friday to allow some small projects to undergo two-month reviews instead.

The projects eligible for the shorter reviews could not include more than three miles of pipeline or more than four drilling rigs, he said.

An advocate for the environment was wary of the proposed rules.

"I want to see the specifics, but this at first blush looks like another attempt to accelerate oil and gas development in the Badlands without taking the necessary steps to protect the environment," said Wayde Schafer, a Sierra Club conservation organizer.

Hoeven argued that the process could be streamlined without harming the environment.

"This has been a big thing for industry, and it comes at the right time," the governor said. "It comes at a time where we recognize we need to increase domestic (oil) supply."

Besides North Dakota, states with national grasslands are California, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas and Wyoming.

The proposed regulations are to be published in the Federal Register in a few weeks. That will mark the beginning of a 60-day period during which the Forest Service will take comments on the proposed rules.

Source: Associated Press"

Druid: Wow, and we've only hit $3+ for a gallon of gas.

Druid (9/12/05; 22:09:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 135913)
Japan's Rivalry With China Is Stirring a Crowded Sea
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/international/asia/11taiwan.html?th&emc=th
Snip.

"By NORIMITSU ONISHI and HOWARD W. FRENCH
Published: September 11, 2005

TOKYO, Sept. 10 - In a muscular display of its rising military and economic might, China deployed a fleet of five warships on Friday near a gas field in the East China Sea, a potentially resource-rich area that is disputed by China and Japan.

The ships, including a guided-missile destroyer, were spotted by a Japanese military patrol plane near the Chunxiao gas field, according to the Maritime Self-Defense Forces. It is believed to be the first time that Chinese warships have been seen in that area.

Although the fleet's mission was unclear, its timing suggested that it was no coincidence. The warships appeared two days before a general election in Japan, whose results could greatly influence relations between Asia's two great powers, and weeks before China is scheduled to start producing gas in the area, against strong Japanese protests.

In Japan, where the 12-day election campaign was exclusively focused on domestic issues and on what the media described as Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's theatrical politics, the warships were a sudden reminder of its most pressing outside challenge: China.

Until Mr. Koizumi diverted voters' attention from Japan's rapidly deteriorating relationship with China, the focus for several months had been trained on the increasing diplomatic, military and economic rivalry with China - much of it taking place in the waters between the countries, filled with potentially explosive issues like oil and gas and Taiwan.

Both Japan and China are determined to wield a strong hand in the oil-rich seas and strategic shipping lanes that lie between them.

"It is like the 1930's again, when the central Pacific became a vital concern to both the United States and Japan, whose navy was expanding," said Adm. Lang Ning-li, who until his recent retirement was Taiwan's director of naval intelligence. "That means there could be conflict between China and Japan, which both see these seas as vital, and can't share this space."

Security experts from China, Japan, Taiwan and the United States say all the elements are in place for a showdown over Taiwan between Beijing and Tokyo. No one is predicting war, but Taiwan poses a permanent and unpredictable potential crisis. Washington has a close alliance with Japan, security commitments with Taiwan and a complex relationship with China that mixes rivalry with extensive economic ties.

For America, whose support of either Japan or China has historically tipped the balance in the region, the implications are enormous. The recent comments by a Chinese general that his country would use nuclear weapons against the United States if the American military intervened in a conflict over Taiwan were a sharp reminder that Taiwan's fate remains one of the region's biggest flash points. Many analysts argue that such confrontation, verbal or otherwise, could lead to a regional arms race culminating in a nuclear Japan.

Japan imports all of its oil, and because much of it passes through the seas surrounding Taiwan, feels its survival is dependent on keeping those seas stable. Chinese control of Taiwan could hurt Japan's access to oil, Japan fears. And the United States, which has pledged to defend Taiwan if it is attacked by China, would like to count on Japan's help. During the cold war, Japan conducted joint operations with the United States to keep Soviet submarines out of the Sea of Japan. The submarines are now Chinese, but the policy toward them is pure containment.

"You can come out as much as you want, unless you do something wrong," said Adm. Koichi Furusho, who served as chief of staff of Japan's Maritime Self-Defense Force until January.

This cold-war view of China emerged recently in Japan, but Japan's embrace of it is one of the reasons behind the worsening relations between the countries."

Druid: It seems that relations are getting much more tense around the globe. Given all the help that we've (USA) received from the Japanese finance and banking officials concerning matters of currency intervention and Treasury securities acquisitions, it sure would be nice if we could get them to gear up their war machine and help us out over in that neck of the woods.

Notice the little comment concerning Europe and their small involvement.

mikal (9/12/05; 22:04:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 135912)
@TC, BlackBlade
TC- "Big picture". Yes, in the full context of the phrase, as numerous posters, MK and yourself have used it over the years we have been together. I see at least three meanings of "big picture":
*ongoing future (realistic) market valuation(s) of POG under official auspices as you noted earlier
*buffer for ME nations with dissappearing wells and/or declining oil output until new industry and resultant wealth gradually fills the petroleum void
*implications for individuals, especially investors, internet advocates, 'lurkers', posters past and present(witness the postings from old friends) and those who stand to benefit in kind
BlackBlade - I have been bemused by the way spot crude traded up so steadily in the weeks prior to Katrina. Reaching the fabled $70/barrel at one point intraday I believe. So close to the point at which many felt funds would kick in with massive speculation. Driving oil higher, by some accounts swore it would swell to $100, a price some still find credible.
POO is not going to change the trend or big picture of gold. But it does add daily color and drama to world markets that often overshadow the local and personal impacts which big media conglomerates find less newsworthy.

TownCrier (9/12/05; 20:39:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 135911)
PRITCHO, a time to plant and a time to reap
On the whole of your comments, and especially this portion ....."If the Oilprice comes down ---WHY would they be happy with a Higher POG? They can buy LESS Gold -doesn't ADD UP for me.".... it becomes abundantly apparent that you aren't trying to step back to see the bigger picture.

You are evidently too focused on what the terms of the present trade would be in that scenario while neglecting a fuller consideration of what the consequences would be upon all of the gold savings that they have already acquired.

Suggest you bear this in mind and reread Belgian's #07 and #08.

Hope this helps.

R.

PRITCHO (9/12/05; 20:04:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 135910)
Re Lower Oil & Higher Gold Price - -
WHY would Oil Producers,especially those from the Gold loving Middle East accept a lower price in exchange for a higher Gold price?

Unless I'm missing something completely (very possible)it just doesn't make any sense. In the PAST we've been told that a LOW oil price was only possible because Gold was supplied/ managed at a LOW price.

Accept for a minute that the oil price currently is NOT HIGH -after all the US $ has lost 35% at least in value over the past 4 yrs --and taking into account inflation oil is really cheaper NOW than in the 80's!

If the Oilprice comes down -they get LESS worthless paper --WHY would they be happy with a Higher POG?
They can buy LESS Gold -doesn't ADD UP for me. Thoughts?

Flaccus (9/12/05; 19:11:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 135909)
On the JetlinerUSA just before takeoff. . . .
Pilot: OK. Let's run through our checks.

CoPilot: Ready.

Pilot: Primed press.

CoPilot: Check.

Pilot: Lap dog Wall Street analysts.

CoPilot: Check.

Pilot: Hedonics.

CoPilot: Check.

Pilot: Massaged figures.

CoPilot: Check.

Pilot: Dumped markets.

CoPilot: Right where we want them.

Pilot: Trumped up markets.

CoPilot: Just like we like them.

Pilot: OK. We're ready to go.

CoPilot: Let's taxi this puppy into line.

Pilot: Check all the way around, tower. We're ready to dump this one on the public.

CoPilot: We're taxiing to the runway, ready to dump producer prices on the public, tower.

Tower: OK. Let's get it over with, boys.

Pilot: Ready to let it rip, Tower. Have a good one.

Belgian (9/12/05; 17:09:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 135908)
@ Druid
It certainly is no coincidence that Forbes repeats his POO call immediately after Gordon Brown's speech on oil (Manchester-EU reunion).

Wouldn' be surprized seeing oil coming down in exchange for rising POG !? A bit of more freely priced gold in exchange for cheaper oil. This would be a nice sign that complete FREEGOLD = CHEAP OIL . Just as it was during the past 3 decades : Cheap oil in exchange for the possibility to accumulate cheap goldmetal.
But with the goldmetal liquidity getting dryer by the quarter...freegold (free/freeer priced gold) could be a good solution completely in line with the practices of the past 3 decades. Free/freeer goldprice (Dubai call $500) without having started the final complete revaluation might be relatively harmless to the dollar (no graveyard) and supportive for the euro.

Maybe that's what was agreed upon in Manchester ? Let's watch if it materializes ???

Otherwise, Forbes was just putting his weight on the oil futures in support of an attack on the oilprice ?
Too early to come up with projections.

Belgian (9/12/05; 16:51:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 135907)
@Tapper
At present, the most correct answer is : Who knows !?
There is NO timetable on a process (transition) like this one. One can only guess if the events are to be interpreted as fastening or slowing (or even aborting) the ongoing process.

Hypothetical example : If the Forbes call would materialize (POO > $35) with $/�-POG going up...I would cautiously conclude that the process is speeding up. Oil saying > don't mess with the euro, and if you (temporary) want some cheaper oil...releash the goldprice which is � supportive. Maybe Forbes has translated this agreement to the public ?

The hart of the matter remains the balance between the pressure on the dollar-system and the dept and soundness of the euro-system alternative. This is a (the) process. That's what we are watching.

Simply realize that today's gold is obscenely cheap (historically) and that the timing of the actual revaluation process is impossible. I have a period of +/- 5 years in mind where pushing and pulling will remain on the order of the day. This intuitive period is based on what changes happened during the past 5 years.

Sundeck (9/12/05; 16:13:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 135906)
$35 oil?
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=106630
Belgian, et al.,

Snips:

"...
There was one rather interesting predictions made last Tuesday by business publisher Steve Forbes. Forbes boldly predicted that we are going to see oil down to $35-$40 in 12 months! It's a huge bubble, he suggested, that will eventually pop. According to him, hedge fund speculators in oil futures are getting very active. Consequently, the higher the price goes, the further it falls! I don't buy this argument and will explain why.

...

This demand and supply logic is turning ruthless and it poses the greatest perils for the US and world economies. Any disruptions could indeed exacerbate the already edgy no excess capacity situation in market demand and supply, e.g. new damaging hurricanes or other natural disasters; political unrest in certain oil producing countries; slackness in global refining capacity; horrendous acts of terror, etc. These factors could, individually or collectively, cause disruptions in oil supplies and hence havoc on a global scale.
..."

Sundeck:

1. Steve Forbes first raised this $35 prediction a few weeks ago at the Forbes CEOs conference in Sydney. It received a bit of publicity, but does not seem to have gained much traction since.

2. Mmmm..."huge bubble" in the price of oil....OR...wind coming out of huge bubble in the "price" of the US dollar?

3. I would certainly be surprised if hedge funds ARE NOT part of the problem (as they appear to be with the dollar), but the underpinning demand/supply issues appear, to me, to be compelling.

4. I suspect that oil has become part of Alan's "conundrum" as well...a dinkie-die headache for an old man...

5. Perhaps Steve Forbes is on a mission of "greater purpose"....or just very short petroleum in the markets???

:-)

TownCrier (9/12/05; 16:03:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 135905)
Vulnerability
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-12T213600Z_01_YUE273471_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-ENERGY-LOSANGELES-DC.XML
HEADLINE: Widespread power outage hits Los Angeles

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A widespread power outage hit Los Angeles on Monday, knocking out electricity to thousands of customers, snarling traffic and stranding high-rise office workers in elevators or trains as officials scrambled to determine the cause.

There was no immediate evidence of foul play, but authorities declared a state of emergency shortly after the 12:35 p.m. PDT (3:35 p.m. EDT) blackout, which struck a wide swath of the city in seemingly random patches.

"The city is on a tactical alert and obviously traffic is going to be impacted," said Los Angeles Police spokesman Kevin Maiberger as lines of cars jammed the city's freeways.

Maiberger described a tactical alert as "what happens when the city goes into a state of emergency. Police officers will only be responding to calls where there is a threat to life."

...The power failure jangled nerves in Los Angeles one day after a suspected Al Qaeda associate made threats against America's second-largest city in a videotape aired as the U.S. marked the fourth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Television stations showed confusion at major traffic intersections as motorists tried to navigate through stoplights that were out. Freeway traffic was jammed as stoplight outages caused backups onto exit ramps.

In the financial district of Los Angeles, office workers huddled in groups, many stranded outside their buildings as the outage struck during lunch, stalling elevators in high-rise office towers.

^---(from url)---^

There's something to be said for knowing where the stairs are and how to use them.

Choose gold -- it's reliable like that.

R.

TownCrier (9/12/05; 15:49:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 135904)
Fed's Fisher says no rush to judge Katrina impact
http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh67546_2005-09-12_21-10-22_n12501220_newsml
WASHINGTON, Sept 12 (Reuters) - Hurricane Katrina will not do lasting harm to U.S. growth and the impact on monetary policy is unclear, a top Fed policymaker said on Monday, in remarks that reinforce expectations for a rate hike next week.

Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas President Richard Fisher made plain that while he had an open mind, he was not worried that Katrina would send the U.S. economy into a tailspin.

...Fisher is a voting member of the central bank's policy setting Federal Open Market Committee this year, which holds its next meeting on Sept. 20.

"Among the American economy's strength are its size, diversity, interconnections and resiliency. I fully expect the economy to rebound from this disaster," he said.

He also said government spending to offset the financial hardship of the hurricane must be monitored by the central bank, which should not get sucked into paying for this through cheaper money.

"With the nation's already large fiscal deficits, I personally believe that it would be ill-advised for the Fed to monetize any fiscal profligacy," he said.

U.S. President George W. Bush has already authorized $62 billion in storm aid and the final government bill is liable to swell above $100 billion.

^----(from url)---^

We've already seen recent signs of moderate monetization. (see earlier post, plus two last week.) Will there be more Treasury purchases by the Fed to follow?

R.

USAGOLD Daily Market Report (9/12/05; 14:12:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 135903)
Page Update!
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Monday Market Excerpts

September 12 (from Reuters) -- Gold came within dollars of its highest price in 17 years in Europe on Monday as political factors boosted the yen and knocked the euro, pushing investors into the safe haven asset.

Bullion rose to its highest so far this year at $451.50 an ounce in Asia overnight, before settling back as its ardour cooled slightly, amid some profit-taking.

"You got a ratcheting up in the market rather than a one-way trip (up)," said Bernard Hunter, director of precious metals marketing at ScotiaMocatta in Toronto. "I had sort of expected a more serious attempt on ($450) from New York," he said, adding, "It's provided some pretty strong resistance."

An election victory by Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi pushed up the yen against the dollar and boosted the interest of Japanese investors in dollar-priced bullion, dealers said.

Euro-denominated gold hit its firmest in three weeks as the European currency softened on growing uncertainty over an upcoming vote in Germany.

Dealers said the metal was gaining strength and was likely to climb past the December 2004 peak of $456.75. Anything above that would take gold to its highest since June 1988.

COMEX December gold contracts settled at $453.70, up 70 cents.

Dealers also reported buying from jewelers in Asia despite high prices, suggesting that some consumers had given up hope that gold would fall back to July levels around $420.

A recent industry-sponsored report showed robust physical demand, especially from Asian jewellery manufacturers, in the first half of 2005.

---(see url for access to full news, 24-hr newswire, market quotes)---

TownCrier (9/12/05; 13:48:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 135902)
968, I surely did! Bratwursts on Saturday and steaks on Sunday
I also had a chance to (finally) read the McCauley piece. In doing so I was struck as though hearing a distant echo of early thoughts shared (some privately, some publicly) something like five years ago among Ari, FOA, myself and the Forum on the international use and employment of eurodollars ("offshore" dollars). For all our efforts to characterize papergold as a hollow item of wealth, the eurodollars offer even less to stand on, as if that's possible.

To put the simplest possible bottomline on it, the fact that the central banks have orchestrated to make this airiest of reserve structures work for as long as they have should be more than enough proof that they also possess the means to provide in its stead at the appropriate time a solid foundation of gold along with guidance to the markets on acceptible mechanisms for benchmark pricing of the strategic, tangible asset.

More on that, and MTM thoughts to come, as promised to you...

R.

TownCrier (9/12/05; 13:09:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 135901)
Federal Reserve continues to buy Treasuries outright
http://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/permanent.html
Following this morning's massage of the fed funds market with a $4.75 billion injection of cash at sub-FOMC rates (below the 3.5% target) through overnight repos in open market operations, more significantly the Fed once again (third time in four sessions) acquired Treasury coupons through outright purchases for the Fed's own account.

This time the Fed injected $1.1 billion dollars of 'permanent' cash reserves into the banking system in its open maket bid to absorb Treasuries, targeting those coupons maturing in the near-term, from November 2007 through October 2008.

As the Fed actively monetizes our Treasury's debt securities, you should consider actively consolidating your paper into tangible gold to limit your exposure to potential currency depreciation within our inflatable money supply.

R.

Druid (9/12/05; 13:01:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 135900)
@TC

Druid: TC, forgive me for not knowing but if your commentary is archived at the chalkboard, then link Miner's commentary with it so it will have an appropriate context. You might also might want to archive it as a part of Miner's own individual work. Just some thoughts.

968 (9/12/05; 12:54:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 135899)
BBQ
Hello Townie,

Did you have a great BBQ yesterday ?

TownCrier (9/12/05; 12:49:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 135898)
Fully agree on Miner's commentary
Now the million dollar question is how/where to best preserve it. I could make it a fully-fledged stand-alone page hyperlinked as a companion piece to my original debunking of the "Conundrum" page, or I could directly incorporate it in full into the EPILOGUE of that same page, or I could give it the ever-handy and reliable 'Golden Chalkboard' treatment.

Any preference, gentlemen?

R.

TownCrier (9/12/05; 12:30:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 135897)
price charts
http://www.usagold.com/gold-price.html
Today gold is flexing its muscles in euro, reaching up to new highs (and attracting attention of the continental investors). Meanwhile, in the 1-year dollar chart shows gold to look decisively positive, too.

Would you like to have meaningful savings? Consolidate your promissory papers -- choose gold.

Call USAGOLD-Centennial today for price quotes and diversification guidance. 1-800-869-5115

R.

Druid (9/12/05; 12:24:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 135896)
(No Subject)

Druid: Dollar up, oil down, gold up. The game is changing.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (9/12/05; 12:03:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 135895)
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http://www.usagold.com/gold-coins.html

Harvest Time
Whatever it is that you may have sown,
we'll give you the power to reap GOLD.

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USAGOLD-Centennial has three decades of experience in the field

Gene (9/12/05; 11:54:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 135894)
Dollar
Why is the dollar soaring today?

Druid (9/12/05; 10:28:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 135893)
Druid (9/12/05; 10:25:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 135892)

Druid: should read; Will the oil barons cooperate much like the gold barons?

Druid (9/12/05; 10:25:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 135892)
Belgian (9/12/05; 05:48:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 135886)

Druid: Belgian, this is the same Steve Forbes that used to pound the table hard about a "Gold" standard and doing away with the IRS, a Flat Tax etc...., and now, he's a changed man. Is he going to be a new Oracle in helping manage down the price of oil so that the masses will be in awe of his ability to raise his hands and make it so?

Will the oil barons cooperate much like the gold barons and?

I third the motion to have Miner's recent post archived to our great Hall.

Goldilox (9/12/05; 10:15:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 135891)
Gasoline demand falling along with prices
CNBC is interviewing Trilby Lundberg who sees the post-Labor Day relaxing of gasoline prices (no gouging, of course) falling further than usual as a result of two factors:

1) Hurricane areas show no retail demand, as people and businesses are still "mostly shut-in"

2) Higher prices are moderating driving behavior to more conservative style.

Wholesale gas is currently hovering at $1.90, well below its post Katrina peak.

Goldilox (9/12/05; 09:18:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 135890)
Gold demand seen holding strong
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050912.wgold0912/BNStory/Business/
snip:

From the Middle East, which is gearing up for the holy month of Ramadan, to India, which is set to celebrate the post-monsoon festival season, record demand for precious metals is continuing, a Bank of Nova Scotia report said Monday . . .

In India, demand for gold and silver remains robust. "We anticipate higher-than-usual demand over the remainder of the year for several reasons," the bank said. "Agricultural revenues in India should be above average due to better-than-expected monsoons ' . . .

Gold prices have climbed in recent months as record oil prices have sparked concern about inflation and as investors bought gold as a safe haven in a time of economic uncertainty. The move has sent the S&P/TSX capped gold sub-index up about 9 per cent since the end of July.

Demand, meantime, hasn't slowed.

Over the summer, "market participants have become comfortable buying metal at any sign of weakness in prices, and this has resulted in busier than usual activity throughout the Asian and Middle Eastern markets," Scotiabank said.

In the Middle East, Iran and Iraq have seen a big jump in gold demand this summer. "Iran seeing the benefits of higher oil prices, a stable currency and a brighter political outlook, while Iraq is seeing a flight to safety as people look to gold for liquidity, security and a tangible store of wealth," said Bernard Hunter, director of the precious metals division.

In Thailand, rumours of a clampdown on gold imports to reduce the country's trade deficit have prompted a surge in gold imports as people try to hoard the metal, he added.

Tapper_Light (9/12/05; 09:17:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 135889)
(No Subject)
Thank you for your welcomes and answers. I came to this forum and other sites to learn...to try and understand why the price of gold wasn't responding the way it was "supposed" to. Until recently, I made my living in the gold mining industry and my life has been directly affected by much of what is discussed here. I have a great appreciation for the contributors and sponsor of this great forum and to others who contribute to the ongoing discussion/debate about gold/currencies.

Belgian says,"Imo, the $-IMS will transition into the �-IMS (yes it will)...if and when the dollar-reserve system is collapsing under the weight of its own mismanagement"

Does the revalution or setting free of the gold price have to happen after a complete collapse of the dollar IMF or has the Euro(MTM) given the U.S. and the rest of the world a time frame for the transition (Washington agreements)? Will the Euro wait indefinitely for the dollar collapse before they quit supplying the physical gold to keep the market functioning?

contrarian (9/12/05; 08:26:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 135888)
miner's post
I second that...I think it a brilliant analysis, and it's going to take awhile to get my mind around it...definitely one for further discussion, and deserving of the archives...it's also disturbing, showing the massive economic hairball that has been created, but in the end, I think the K cycle will prevail, delay notwithstanding, and paper will die a miserable and well deserved death...although the implications for this nation and the world are staggering...and the game has only just begin, with 9/11 and Katrina being only the first volleys...perhaps another exogenous event coming up...and I've told a friend in California to stock up on water and foodstuffs!

Belgian (9/12/05; 07:01:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 135887)
Miner49er
Can the usagold administration put Miner49er's post in the archives, PLEASE.

This is a perfect comprehensive (detailed) description of what is presently happening (unambiguous facts-smile again CM).

...these "enormous" sums of money (?) change direction very slowly...
Not only emphasis on "enormous" but fast/faster rising volumes (sums).

...securitization, paperization, contracts, derivitization, arbitrage >>> financial adrenaline : Not adrenaline but "atropine" to neutreulize the unstoppable chronic poisoning. The rise (and fall) of the LS(leveraged speculators > opportune gamblers) that were made (grow into) 100% indispensable.

...thinning spreads > increasing volume = The frantic search for (virtual-!) return.

Indeed miner49er, there still is a (pragmatic) accodomative political will for avoiding any kind of crash >>> The graveyard !

...frustration of the non-$-plans for a new monetary paradigm... : Frustration ? Impatience ? Unfavorable circumstances ?...other ?

...extend the transition, or lose the $-export market...
German exporters generally don't share this thought.

...leashing of the goldprice...
A very high probability imo.

Miner49...What you have been (correctly) describing is the catch 22 content of the global situation. Once one catches this...the ultra simple conclusion is as obvious as clear water.

Thank you VERY much Sir !

Belgian (9/12/05; 05:48:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 135886)
The Steve Forbes " CAMPAIGN" !?
Steve states : The price of crude oil will fall/crash to $35 pb ! Waw.

Is a rising oilprice (oil revaluation) a too imperialistic challenge for our beloved Pax Amerikana !?

Can oil be traded FREELY !?

I abstain jumping to early conclusions...but...this official (non cryptic) campaign by such an important/influent person /movement...is extremely significant in the present context. Let's wait and see whilst storing this (factual) statement in our memories.

Belgian (9/12/05; 05:19:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 135885)
Onwards ...(OK Ovs)
@ CP : Duisenberg was not at all the type of a boaster. On the contrary.
Rigging the gold markets and the temptation of imperealism :
In fact, the gold markets have never been "rigged" in the true sense of this word. Gold, its price/pricing have been managed and now that we are in the transition period, just call the action >>> maneuvering.

The past 3 decades of gold-management brought us VERY cheap oil on wich the fundamental of our western prosperity have been build !

Euroland has NO intention to develop imperialistic tendencies !!! WE HAD TWO BIG LESSONS CHRIS...two devastating, horrible lessons against wich today's atrocities are nothing !!! Shhh WHICH...

The final purpose is NOT replacing an abusive dollar-regime with an as abusive euro-regime !!! It is about a FREE GOLD MARKET that makes a very good chance to stop the creation/fabrication of endangering unbalances in a globalizing world. A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD !!! Unfortunately misunderstood by the states that were lured by the IMF tactics in replacing/exchanging their gold reserves for more of the same dollar reserves !!! It is in this context that 986 " Mr.Sleeper in South Afrika " post, must be seen.
He was suggesting the SA government to adopt the MTM concept. WHY do you think China and Russia are having a goldmining rush/bonanza on their territories (unlisted companies of course) !?
They are NOT digging for more paperdollars but for the metal that can be traded in a free setting REVALUATION proces. Those new rising powerblocks want to get rid of the dollar regime that continues to price their currencies, their labor/sweat and degrade them to a dollar-derivative. The only way out is a gold reserve that is universally freely traded and priced into a numeraire that stands behind the concept.

This what is the whole debate about gold NOT being $-money anymore but a universally free exchangeable wealth tangible.
Not the trade of (papergold)forgeries...false copies of the real physical gold. We want to trade the original "Mona Lisa" and not the endless amounts of copies of it.

What is the (intrinsic and lasting) value of holding a massive overpriced stock with a pro forma book-keeping !? ZERO.
Idem dito for any bond (debtpaper) that is valued by the pricing policies of the underlying currency.

When internationally valued pieces of art are traded, the price setting cannot be managed. Those who change the value-tangible from hand to hand (physical possession) agree on the real price that fully "values" that wealth tangible. Simply because there are no Mona Lisa certificates/contracts traded !!! This is a 100% "PHYSICAL" affair as real markets should be. Here we are talking/dealing not about/with what has to be perceived as "money"...but the exchange/trade of WEALTH !

Is this kind of concept an imperialistic tendency ?

Belgian (9/12/05; 04:39:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 135884)
@ CP
The one and only reason why the dollar (and the $-IMS) remains supported is extremely simple : Changes (smooth and enduring ones) cannot take place on an economic graveyard !!!

Foreign CBs will continue to take in excess dollars as reserves, for the same reason. It is exactly on this terrible graveyard picture, that the dollar's (abusive) management is based !
That's why the answer to get out of the terrible choice is to gradually replace the dollar reserve with gold-reserves, without needing to throw the dollar out of the door...BECAUSE THE GOLD RESERVE REVALUATION WILL BE HHHHHHHUUUUUUUUGGGGE !!!

You still look at �-$ and �/$-POG through the $-gold entanglement spectacles : The fighting (opposing) price and exchange rate movers are both maneuvering as to keep the complex "-out and in-" , this entanglement. Remember all the mis-interpretation of the sudden �-POG rise through a 15 yrs old ceiling (350 �)!

And now the most important reflexion : Indeed...Of course MTM means zero...WHEN GOLD IS NOT TRADED FREELY !!!
What you should see now is the maneuvering out of an UNFREE GOLD MARKET INTO A FREE GOLD MARKET !!!

You and I are very free to trade our shrimpy ounces under a goldprice fixed regime...but...the giants who can (and do)trade the 400 ounces bars are NOT as free as they want (demand) to be. This happened in the period 1971 to its climax in 1980 ! The "DOLLAR" price of the metal was catapulted into the stratosphere and those giant gold(reserve) uptakers had no choice to stop chasing the yellow. On top of that...GOLD STAYED WITHIN ITS DOLLAR ENTANGLEMENT...because there was no euro alternative gold concept (MTM) !!!

Keeping gold-wealth-reserve in your vault that remains priced (not valued) by the dollar regime is worthless. Your gold-reserves are priced by a fraudulent dollar and not by a numeraire (euro) that wishes to have a gold-reserve that is VALUED by a free market...ONLY POSSIBLE WHEN IT IS PHYSICAL GOLD THAT IS TRADED ...not manipulative goldpaper derivatives !

OvS (9/12/05; 04:12:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 135883)
Belgian
Sorry; I did not mean that
kind of exposure. It's
twisted logic meant to save
my face vs. Goldilox's valid
objection. If I can't un-
twist it, I'll fall back on
my poet's license...
Miner49's comments shows the
breadth of input for this
forum which is astounding.
I wish I could spend more
time here and prepare my own
messages with more delibera-
tion wich time-wise is not
possible. Cheers. Up and on-
ward. OvS

Belgian (9/12/05; 03:36:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 135882)
Good morning
Randy msg#135860 : The paragraph you refer to is (imo) as perfect as can possibly be. But is that (great) conclusion fully understood by all on this forum ?

>>>...CBs buying time..Shift in reserve structure...

I'm trying (with great pleasure) to translate these observations...unambiguous facts (smile CM) into a non cryptic language (old bad habit).

Miner-49er (Hoi mate) adds his full (intellectual) weight on the matters with a comprehensive reflexion. INDEED Sir...THERE IS NO CONUNDRUM !!! And your complete analysis of the "buying time" must be very close to reality. More later on your (excellent) post.

Goldi : Perfect critical reactions of yours ! But sometimes I use the form of soundbite (wich I hate) to make the point ! How can I possibly describe in full detail how the "timing" isn't fully in sync with the underlying maneuvers ? It is about the fundamental : euro and gold are to be associated opposite than dollar and gold. When I should start elaborating on this by presenting the full analysis on what happens day after day on this front (the market-?)...everybody would be bored to such an extend that they simply miss the point and never think/consider it ever again. And then the dialoque continues without having a fundamental fact included.
That's why Randy fastly included the double dip ($253). Remember the old soundbite : WHY was the euro exchange rate knocked down to 0,85...And WHY...how was it possible that it recovered so fast as to run up to 1,36 ?

Today I'm pulling your attention on the euro/dollar exchange rate again with the question : How come that the � exch. rate stopped declining EXACTLY at a very important support level of 1,20 !? Answer : Don't you, cartel of financial forces, dare to push the euro down...under the limits that our supporters (oil) agree on as to not disturb the unfolding of the �-gold-oil building. That's when the currency competition calmed down (Tapper-!).

Today, the gold-pricing is also becoming more and more involved in the "unfolding". More later.

CP : I enjoy your challenging views. Those outside US$ will NEVER come home (US) !!! NEVER.
BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING TO BE REPLACED BY FREEGOLD WEALTH RESERVE !!!
This arch simple concept is the whole explanation for all the WHYs that can possibly be brought up. This one simple idea is NOT a conondrum.
That's WHY the entire planet lets you Americans get away with it (it=$-expansion).

OvS : I don't understand your msg#135873 in "wHich" you say "exposing Belgian" etc. Common man, what's the problem.

An unambiguous (old) fact for Sir Cavan Man : Wim was pictured in the Amsterdam gold vault with in the background the 400 ounce yellow bricks. He said that gold will remain an important monetary asset ! Have you ever seen Volcker or Alan pictured (filmed) in Fort Knox ?
The more I watch the present facts...the more I attach importance/deep significance to the Wim and gold life/real time, picture ! What's the degree of ambiguaty here ?

Miner-49er, mentions AGAIN the "ENTANGLEMENT" of the dollar and gold ! Very recently, goldobservers seemed to have discovered some (mysterious) kind of delinking of gold from currencies. Of course, no WHY question and no investigation into the real motives (maneuvers-purposes) behind the fenomenon. Classify it with all the other "conondrums" and then all is said and done for public consumption.

Oil (Dubai) says to the cartel of financial brotherhoods : Don't knock the goldprice down...or we increase the oilprice pressure ! That's the real meaning of the struggles. But the media will NEVER-EVER say the word "struggle" wHich in fact is rather a fight. "Conondrum" sounds so much nicer.

The past 3 decades, the dollar (its management) has been critizised on and on, whilst the planet kept on using it...and stored it as RESERVE. Today, some observers dared to question the dollar's -reserve- function, and that is one step too far. Italian sympathicos retaliated with the pathetic (selfdestructive) cry for leaving EMU. Next step will be the suggestion that "modern gold" might be an excellent reserve ! When...the goldpricing escapes from the $-entanglements.
Just trying to put the seemingly unsignificant "events" into a context...not for the sake of giving these events more importance than they deserve...but to communicate more understanding of what exactly lives behind the screens.

ViewYesterday's Discussion.

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