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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/1/2003
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Black Blade (07/01/03; 23:47:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 105316)
slingshot

I drop in on the local coin shop once in a while to look and drool. The owner said that he has been out more frequently than ever and has to replenish stocks more often in recent months. Maybe it's not so much of a "glut" but rather stocking up due to increased activity - at least in my area. He also mentioned that there has been a lot of turnover as more people are in need of cash and it tends to sell quite well. I did notice a lot of turnover in the US pre-1933 gold coin too - and that isn't even the PCGS slabbed types either. Uncirculated Liberty gold and Morgan silver dollar coins are what I tend to focus on myself. Now if only I had the funds - hmmm...

- Black Blade

slingshot (07/01/03; 23:20:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 105315)
Looking Good
A visit to two Coin dealers was indeed a pleasant one.
Both had an abundance of gold and silver. Eagles,Krugs, Pesos. Silver Eagles, 1 oz. bullion 10 oz. and even 100 oz. bars. Halfs, quarter, and tenths. In one store, the most 2003 Silver Eagles I have seen so far. Stocking up before the rush? Now some may say this may be evidence of a glut in the market. I think these businessmen are looking to cash in. Betcha they see the rise in sales and do not want to be caught short. Are they betting a substantial rise in both gold and silver or even a shortage? Is supply and demand ready to punch its way threw the resistance level? Both businesses have been around for at least 20 years and family operated.
I am truly positive.
Slingshot-----------------------<>

Goldilox (07/01/03; 23:08:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 105314)
Biggest credit card binge in three years drives up lending
http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=420642
snippit:

By William Kay
01 July 2003

Figures released yesterday by the Bank of England suggest that the housing market is cooling but consumers are borrowing more and investors are taking less cash out of the stock market.

The biggest rise in credit card borrowing for three years helped drive total lending to individuals up by 1 per cent in May, despite a slight fall in the growth of lending secured against the value of customers' homes.

Goldilox:

Look familiar? Monkey-see Monkey-do economics is definitely global. Look for more pressure on interest rates and gold to the Moon.


Goldilox (07/01/03; 23:01:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 105313)
Poll says more Americans think war effort is not going well
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/06/30/sprj.irq.iraq.poll/
snippit:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As a new poll shows fewer Americans believe things are going well in Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Monday that the fighting there would continue "for some time."

Only 56 percent of Americans think current U.S.-coalition efforts as going well, according to a new CNN/USA Today Gallup poll. That is much lower than the 70 percent in late May and the 86 percent in early May who thought things were going well.

Goldilox:

With reporting like this, no wonder the eastern cable networks want to replace them with "19th Century" Fox news. How can we run a decent war effort when the "liberal" press won't support us with positive statistics. Let's run another poll led by the BLS.

Goldilox (07/01/03; 22:55:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 105312)
India and China Challenge WTO
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,3604,988522,00.html
snippit:

WTO challenge India and China team up

Charlotte Denny
Tuesday July 1, 2003
The Guardian

India and China will challenge the west's control over global trade rules with a united front at the World Trade Organisation. The alliance was struck last week during their first summit meeting for a decade and could spell trouble for Europe's farmers as India has said cutting western agriculture subsidies will be top of their agenda.

Goldilox:

Apparently, price deflation is not bad for everyone. Let the games begin.

Goldilox (07/01/03; 22:48:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 105311)
Sheep and grass
@a nation of one:

Do sheep eat grass because of their own volition, or because their human masters limit them to grass as the only easy access to food? Their close relatives, the goats eat grass, as well, but are much more prone to a varied diet when possible. Do Americans eat refined sugar and hormone injected livestock because they have decided it's the best diet, or because it is the most easily commercially obtained subsistance?

Black Blade (07/01/03; 22:46:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 105310)
California Leads States Without 2004 Fiscal Budgets
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a5oLblmyILQQ&refer=us

Snippit:

June 30 (Bloomberg) -- California, with a $38 billion deficit, heads a pack of seven states still lacking budgets for the fiscal year that starts tomorrow in what a governors' group called their worst financial crisis since World War II. Amid recession and a drop in federal money, the number of states without budgets at this stage has almost doubled from four a year ago. Those facing credit-rating reviews and higher interest costs, like California, are: Connecticut, New Jersey, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina and Oregon. Aside from California -- which has the lowest credit rating of U.S. states and higher borrowing costs than any other -- New Jersey has threatened to halt motor vehicle and even casino operations if a budget isn't enacted. Nevada is considering for the first time a tax on its state-sanctioned brothels to raise about $2.5 million.

Black Blade: Oh no! First it was a tax on beer, now the brothels! Is nothing scared? ;-)



Black Blade (07/01/03; 22:07:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 105309)
Market Wrap Up - Hartman
http://www.financialsense.com/Market/wrapup.htm

Snippit:

Gold was up almost six dollars today, finally climbing back above the $350 barrier. With pressure on stocks next week and lack of yield in the bond market, I expect money to flow into the precious metals sector. The trend is already in place; we're just coming to the end of an excruciating consolidation in the gold and silver arena. As the baby golden bull begins to climb the wall of worry, all the skeptics think that the hard money advocates are lunatics from the fringe.

Black Blade: The economic data has not been all that rosy and with a flury of earnings warnings it is "interesting" that the equities markets rebounded. Tonight Verizon is yet another example. The company will write off $3 billion due to "accounting problems" but states that this will not impact "readjusted earnings and revenues". Whoa! I heard spin before but that one is lame. Now is as good a time as ever to have precious metals for portfolio insurance.

Druid (07/01/03; 21:29:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 105308)
Political Train Wreck
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/070103_beyond_bush_1.html
"There is no longer any serious doubt that Bush administration officials deceived us into war. The key question now is why so many influential people are in denial, unwilling to admit the obvious...But even people who aren't partisan Republicans shy away from confronting the administration's dishonest case for war, because they don't want to face the implications...

After all, suppose a politician - or a journalist - admits to himself that Mr. Bush bamboozled the nation into war. Well, launching a war on false pretenses is, to say the least a breach of trust. So if you admit to yourself that such a thing happened, you have a moral obligation to demand accountability - and to do so in the face not only of a powerful, ruthless political machine but in the face of a country not yet ready to believe that its leaders have exploited 9/11 for political gain. It's a scary prospect.

Yet, if we can't find people willing to take the risk - to face the truth and act on it - what will happen to our democracy?

Paul Krugman, The New York Times, June 24, 2003"

Druid: Where would the "free" markets be without the politics? Gold, separating the simple from the complex.


a nation of one (07/01/03; 21:08:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 105307)
glennh10

There never was a time when all the world's sheep got
together in a room and agreed to eat grass. But they do all
eat grass. Is this a conspiracy? Technically, according to
the meaning of the word 'conspiracy', it is. "...Any
concurrence in action...," is a conspiracy. No explicit
verbal agreement is required.


a nation of one (07/01/03; 20:53:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 105306)
Mountain Top

Is there a more effective weapon, that can be brought
against a nation, than the destruction of its own money, or
a more effective means of enacting such a strategy, than
by what seem to the legitimate activities of an authorized
insider?



glennh10 (07/01/03; 20:48:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 105305)
Re: A Nation of One, Conspiracy (?)
I certainly agree that Greenspan and others know what they are doing. Evidence exists that this type of thing has been going on for a long time. FDR admitted of the existence of a controlling banking influence "since the time of Jackson". By 1932/1933, it was very clear that the Fed had failed miserably in its job (management of the economy/money). The Fed had been given ample opportunity, and clearly failed, more than once. I often wondered why it was in the 1930's that the whole federal gov't (all branches) seemed to act in unison (collusion?) on the money issues (gold confiscation, invalidating gold clauses in contracts, granting the Pres power to devaue the dollar). When a person or entity (Fed) repeatedly fails so miserably in its sole assigned duty, involving a field of concentration that they are renowned experts in, the most logical thing to do is fire them, get rid of them. Instead, the Fed was more greatly empowered. Oh, there were a few voices of opposition, but, by in large, the Congress and the Supreme Court joined with the President in succeeding to make monetary changes that only further empowered the Fed, at the expense of liberty and the presumed inviolability of private contracts, in clear violation of the Constitution; all justified on the basis of "emergency powers" (which persist today). This was not by accident, coincidence, or through acts of ignorance. Today, Greenspan benefits by doing what's expected of him. In his more youthful days, he learned, and he knows the "truth" about money. But, ambition got in his way. He likes his job. Given what I've read here on this forum, I don't think any one of us can entertain any hopes of holding high office. But, we sure pick the economic/monetary issues clean! You won't find better analysis anywhere else, imo.

a nation of one (07/01/03; 20:36:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 105304)
Mountain Top

Your remarks are consistent with what I understand. There
is more than one type of war. The type I am used to is
where men shoot at one another, and there is no doubt about
what is going on. Others engage in wars where weapons are
used that are insidious. Their enemy doesn't realize
anything is happening until it's over. That's the kind of
war we are in, I think.


Mountain Top (07/01/03; 20:14:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 105303)
A Nation of One
You have raise a question that I have often wondered about. It would seem that even if the people who wield the power in our country were all completely incompetent idiots as some suggest, would not the law of averages determine that some of the edicts and regulations would be beneficial to the constitutional republic? In other words, if we were not governed by determined scoundrels but rather by random stupidity would we not draw some benfit from some of the actions just by accident?

Goldendome (07/01/03; 19:48:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 105302)
Washington State revenus still sinking

OLYMPIA, WASH.(AP) Excerpts:

Washington State's revenue forecast, battered by a state economy that shows no sign of improving, took another $157 million dive last Thursday.

Chang Mook Sohn, the state's chief economist told the bipartisan Revenue Forecast Council, the state economy hasn't moved into recovery mode, and probably won't until next year. In fact, he said, deflation could be around the corner. From the last employment peak, in late 2000, to full recovery in spring of 2005, will be 18 quarters, Sohn predicted. That contrasts with the average rebound of seven quarters...This is longer than in the "70's and "80's with the "Boeing Busts." "This is clearly, very unusual, and a slow recovery pace that we have not seen at any time in the past...We are not seeing any signs that the state economy is improving.

His main reasons:
-The national outlook has deteriorated since his March forecast.
-The state's actual employment and wage numbers are worse than forecast earlier.
-Tax collections remain weak, little changed from last year's depressed economy.
-Aerospace layoffs, primarily at Boeing, are occurring faster and heavier than forecast.
-Unemployment, seemingly stabalized at 7.3% statewide, continues in a trough, and has sunk lower recently after apparently stabalizing for a few months.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Goldendome: Sohn's statements can be repeated throughout our fair land by financial authorities in nearly every state. The Rose colored long-range forcast: "Yesterday was bleak--today is bleaker--tomorrow looks a little better--Two years on, High Tide and Green Grass!"

MK (07/01/03; 19:24:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 105301)
Aristotle. . .
I'm sorry to say that Malaysia and the entirety of the Muslim world does not have enough gold to support a gold exchange standard based on the dinar. These sort of arrangements can only be sustained by agreement among the participants and that is why Matahir is negotiating the dinar usage with potential participants, including the Iranians and the rest of the petro-dollar world. If it gets off the ground, it will not be launched in a vacuum. If there were a public exchange rate for the dinar against the other currencies published in Investors' Daily, then any fiat printer could manufacture enough silicon purchasing power to have that dinar gold reserve delivered to their depository account in New York in a matter of weeks. The only question would be who gets to be first to scramble to the head of the line. Weakness of weaknesses......It is only when your gold reserve is subject to the same sanction as mine that you can forestall a Gaullist style raid. The Bretton Woods analogy is apt, but, if I were Dr. Matahir, I wouldn't be proclaiming my ambition to offer my gold reserve to all takers (and it's interesting that someone had the perspicacity to surface the weakness). That is a prescription for failure -- for both the dinar and those who see it as trend toward the future. Hate to be the one to throw water on this, but until this problem is resolved, the gold dinar is nothing more than a pipe dream.

Aristotle (07/01/03; 19:03:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 105300)
Ha ha ha ha! <laughing at an old joke>
---------"Dr Mahathir said he did not foresee any objections to the use of the gold dinar as it was the same as the gold standard used in the Bretton Woods Agreement. "-------

<sarcastically> Riiiiiiiiiiight. THAT's what we want!

<seriously now> 'Cause we all know what an inflationary heap of claptrap that arrangement was.

That's what happens when you monetize/systemize real property.

SHEEEEEEEEEESH!!!!!

Gold needs a better PR man than Dr. Mahathir who seems befuddled and poised to lead many people into distraction. Keep your eye on FOA's euro/FreeGold instead.

Gold. Get you some. ---- Aristotle

a nation of one (07/01/03; 19:03:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 105299)
Golden Bear

To me, conspiracy is a different subject. What I did was
merely point out that it makes much more sense to believe
that the effects of an adult male's actions are intended,
than to believe that they are the result of ignorance or
lack of ability, particularly when the man is highly
qualified in the area of his profession. Now, conspiracies
may apply. But I didn't want to get into that.


Sundeck (07/01/03; 18:54:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 105298)
Malaysia, Iran in early stage of discussion on the use of gold
http://www.irna.ir/en/head/030630115943.ehe.shtml
...and the view from Iran...

Snips:

"...
He said Malaysia is also discussing the matter with a number of
countries from West Asia who may want the same arrangement.
Dr Shafie said that the countries included Bahrain and Egypt.
However, he said that it was also still at the early stage of
discussion as "there are a number of countries in West Asia which use
the US dollar when exporting petroleum."
Dr Shafie said the Iranian government is interested in Malaysia's
suggestion of using the gold dinar as another means of settling trade
transactions.
He said top officials from Iran had expressed their intention
to use the dinar in their business transactions with Malaysia under
the bilateral payments agreement.
"These officials told me of their intention in December last
year during the Islamic Development Conference in Africa. The meeting
was attended by all the finance ministers of the Islamic nations,"
said Mohd Shafie, who represented Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad in
the conference.
The prime minister was quoted as saying recently that Malaysia
planned to set up a secretariat in the country to promote the idea of
using the gold dinar by central banks of other Muslim countries.
Dr Mahathir, a big supporter of the subject of reviving the gold
dinar, believes that this would help in containing the dominance of
the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) in economic
and financial affairs of the Muslim world.
"We do not care about the dictates of the IMF as we are an
independent and sovereign nation," Dr Mahathir had said proudly,
adding that the Muslim world possessed plenty of wealth which was not
being invested in productive trade and economic activities.
"I was pleading for the `gold dinar' among the Muslim states to
eliminate the bias of the dollar."
The country was proposing the gold dinar to strengthen, specially
the weak economies of certain Islamic countries, on the pattern of
the euro, Mahathir emphasized, while arguing that if Europe can take
care of its countries, "why can't we follow the same pattern?"
The gold dinar had been the currency of the Muslim world until
the collapse of the Ottoman empire in 1924. Being the single currency
at that time, the dinar helped in uniting Muslims in trade and, as
a result, trade flourished. "Thus, a vast Muslim rule was established
with the power of knowledge, economy and global power resting
with the Muslims."
..."

Sundeck:

Note the mention of petroleum. Perhaps settling in gold is less evocative?? provocative?? than settling in Euros??

Sundeck (07/01/03; 18:26:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 105297)
Greater use of gold dinar for trade soon
http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/7/2/business/wndinar&sec=business
Snip:

"...
Greater use of gold dinar for trade soon

BY NICK LEONG and SABRY TAHIR
PRIME Minister Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad said that in addition to Iran, many countries, especially those in West Asia, are interested in conducting trade with Malaysia using the gold dinar for settlement.

"Arab countries, in particular, have expressed interest but the decision-making process and bureaucratic procedures take time," he said after opening the International Convention on Gold Dinar as an Alternative International Currency in Kuala Lumpur yesterday.

Dr Mahathir said efforts to use the gold dinar in bilateral trade with Iran had just started and, if successful, the same mechanism could be applied and expanded to Malaysia's other trading partners, particularly the 30-plus countries with which the country had concluded bilateral payment arrangements (BPA).

On whether the adoption of the gold dinar for trade could be achieved this year, the prime minister said: "Maybe ... we'll see if we can do it with Iran."

Dr Mahathir said Malaysia was ready to use the gold dinar but other countries either did not really understand the concept or found it difficult to make a decision.

He said Malaysia would continue to promote the use of the gold dinar not only among Islamic countries but also non-Islamic nations.

"We have to be patient. When we introduced Islamic banking, it took time for people to accept it but now non-Muslims and non-Islamic banks are using Islamic banking and they can issue Islamic bonds," he said.

Dr Mahathir said he did not foresee any objections to the use of the gold dinar as it was the same as the gold standard used in the Bretton Woods Agreement.

The Bretton-Woods Agreement is about fixing the exchange rate of major trading countries' currencies against gold. The value of the currencies was fixed against the US dollar which in turn was fixed at 1/35 ounce of gold or US$35 per ounce.

On whether the US had made known its stance on the gold dinar, Dr Mahathir said he had not heard of any objection from Washington on the matter.
..."

Sundeck: An update on the status of the gold Dinar... Looks like it is intended to make Iran the first cab off the rank for exchange using the gold Dinar. What politicing underlies that choice?

Golden Bear (07/01/03; 16:50:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 105296)
a nation of one (msg#: 105283) - THE OVERTHROW OF THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/
Thank you fellow goldmeister,

it is a statement that has not sufficiently been addressed on this forum. I am sure that many forum members would shy away from such statements as yours, as they will be well aware of how society treats conspiracy theorists (factists!) - ridicule them publicly and destroy their reputations, especially if they have a position of prominence.

There have been those such as Mr Skolnick, who have a vast network of sources of information regarding the larger forces pulling the levers behind the scenes. If one keeps an open mind long enough, they can get past the incredulity they feel at the realization of the vast scope of the destructive intent behind the actions that are being taken by Greenspan and others, and prepare for the events that are coming our way....

PS. Greenspan being knighted by the Queen - what has Greenspan done for Great Britain? Nothing of note publicly that I am aware of (and is he not in charge of protecting the value of the currency of the USA?)... so what has he done for Britain behind the scenes, at the expense of the USA to warrant that knighthood?.....

Regards,

GB.



Waverider (07/01/03; 14:44:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 105295)
VIP: DAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT
http://www.usagold.com/DailyQuotes.html
Snip:
"Gold surged higher in the last 24 hours as the U.S. dollar weakened spurred on by weaker U.S. economic data suggesting that the euphoria over a rebound in the U.S. economy may be premature. The Institute for Supply Management's national factory data rose slightly but the data is still reveals a contracting economy. The combined weak dollar and grim economic data convinced Funds and speculators to cover short positions and accumulate gold though profit taking was noticed around the $353 level. Some analysts now are convinced that the dollar will weaken much further over the next several months with a growing minority suggesting that the dollar will continue to weaken for several years due to exceptionally large growth rates of current account and trade deficits that exceed the United States total combined gross domestic product (GDP). With very little room left to cut interest rates, the Federal Reserve may soon act on its threat to use "nonconventional" means to stimulate the U.S. economy."

Topaz (07/01/03; 13:20:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 105294)
@anoo...shooting the messenger. @ specie-man.
What I find astounding (amongst commentators) is the complete lack of consideration given to WHAT a deflationary event means in terms Systemic failure....are they ALL simply conditioned for contango ad infinitum?
Mr Greenspan and his ilk are simply reacting to Market conditions, not so much of their making but largely bought about by the Systemic flaw created with (a) Democracy (b) the move to a Faith based unit of account from what is best described as a quasi-intrinsic value unit...and (c) Globalisation.
The System is certainly poised to turn around and bite a lot of behinds anoo but I don't think it's teeth can penetrate Gold in possession.

Well done s-man!
...as a caviat tho, depository Bullion is not immune "entirely" from the system....kinda like having the first Hep-B shot and not going back for the Booster eh?
Making some tentative plans for selling out your holdings...to Yourself!(to take possession) might be prudent.

21mabry (07/01/03; 13:14:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 105293)
Palladium
IMHO palladium is a solid buy,its way of its highs,it has key uses in industrial processes,its a substitute for platinum in some industries,I have liked it for about 3 months now.It does seem hard to buy close to spot and not many dealers seem to sell it.21

21mabry (07/01/03; 13:03:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 105292)
(No Subject)
Through many of our daily activities the goverment is of the mind we are waiving our rights.When you sign your tax return you waive rights, when you get a drivers licsense you waive rights,when you get a social security number you waive rights.When the colonist defeated england they signed 13 seperate peace treaties with england one for each independent entity.You are first and for most a citizen of your state which has joined a union of states but still this state was supposed to keep certain soverign rites,read your states constitution. This federal form of goverment has been usurped by corporate goverment and corporate law. Gold stocks were strong earlier today maybe its foretelling a move up in physical.21

a nation of one (07/01/03; 12:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 105291)
@ Melting Pot msg# 105276

"No constitutional right exists under the Ninth Amendment, or to any other provision
of the Constitution of the United States, ‘to trust the Federal Government and to rely
on the integrity of its pronouncements.’" - MAPCO, Inc. v Carter (1978, Em Ct App)
573 F2d 1268, cert den 437 us 904, 57 L Ed 2d 1134, 98 S Ct 3090"

*** Article [IX] "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Article [X] "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

In other words, the government does not legally have any power -including the power
to deceive the people- that is not specifically delegated to it by the Constitution.
Additionally, the Bill of Rights -Articles One through Ten- specifically states that if a
particular right is not explicitly set forth in the Constitution, that is no reason to
conclude that the people do not have such a right. The court that wrote the original
quote did not comply with the Constitution.


Waverider (07/01/03; 11:10:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 105290)
Barrick files shelf to raise $1-billion
http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030701/RNEWS01-3/TPTechInvestor/
Snip:
"Barrick Gold Corp. has filed a short-form prospectus to sell up to $1-billion (U.S.) of debt. Details of the securities to be offered will be provided in supplements to the prospectus, which was filed Friday with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and the Ontario Securities Commission. Toronto-based Barrick said it intends to use proceeds to repay debt, to make equity investments in subsidiaries, to repurchase stock, for capital expenditures and investment programs and for general corporate purposes."

Waverider: And so goes the way of the gold hedgers!

a nation of one (07/01/03; 11:06:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 105289)
Ten Bears

Professor Fekete: "It is, of course, incredible that Greenspan refuses to see the potential threat to the
economy. To add insult to injury, he has the cheek to pretend that he is fighting depression (of his own
making) by cutting interest rates, the very act that will activate the deflationary inferno. The only explanation
for his lack of insight is the extraordinarily low level of scientific understanding which managers of the
regime of fiat currency have, or must have."

*** But even Professor Fekete fails to realize that the view is more realistic that Mister Greenspan intends
the results of his actions, than that they are the result of ignorance, or that they are due to a lack of
knowledge and ability. I emailed Pr. Fekete, telling him that he needs to consider the possibility that Mister
Greenspan is not refusing to see the potential threat to the economy, but that he is only engaging in the
deception of pretending not to see it.


a nation of one (07/01/03; 10:47:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 105288)
Ten Bears

"You are not alone in your conclusions."

Thanks. I appreciate this.



specie-man (07/01/03; 10:44:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 105287)
Taking Delivery
http://www.designscomputed.com/images/ira_metal.html
Back in late 1999 I convinced my wife to take her 401K funds out of stocks and put it in a money market. That was about 6 months too early, but we're not complaining :)

Recently, I went a step further and convinced her that she should put the money into metals. She had about $100,000 to invest (I sure wish I did too !). That is the major portion of our retirement fund. I had an interest in palladium, but had a hard time finding a source for it that was priced anywhere close to "spot".

I read the IRA regulations and they stated that any bars (including palladium) that are approved for exchange on NYMEX are allowed in IRAs.

It occured to me - why not just buy the metal on the COMEX/NYMEX ? So we set up a precious metals IRA and proceeded to place the orders on COMEX/NYMEX.

Recently, we took delivery. The Comex now has 5000 less ounces of silver in it's warehouse ! Their reserves of gold have been depleted by 100 oz. and their reserves of palladium are now reduced by 200 oz. See the link for pictures of the bars ! It is interesting to see what types of bars you actually get with these contracts.

The disadvantage with this whole setup is that IRA rules dictate that precious metals in IRAs can not be held by the owner (they don't want people getting their hands on their IRA funds !). So the bars will stay in a secure depository in Delaware until our retirement arrives. This storage facility handles a lot of similar accounts, and it is not connected with Comex/Nymex, or anything similar. This is also somewhat of an advantage, however, in that we don't have to worry about storing any valuables at our house.

I realize that the palladium price is quite volatile, but we have 10 to 20 years to wait for the perfect moment to sell (at a much higher price, of course !).



Ten Bears (07/01/03; 10:35:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 105286)
A nation of one #105283
"The most obvious explanation for the disastrous policies pursued over the last three decades (and at an increasing rate for the last 15 years) is that those with the franchise are intent on reducing the consumption level of Americans to more closely approximate the level of less
developed countries".post 105200... You are not alone in your conclusions.

TownCrier (07/01/03; 10:33:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 105285)
Learn from those who walked these paths ahead of you
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/assignats.html
Assorted words of introduction....

The story of "Fiat Money Inflation in France" is one of great interest to legislators, to economic students, and to all business and thinking men. It records the most gigantic attempt ever made in the history of the world by a government to create an inconvertible paper currency, and to maintain its circulation at various levels of value.

It also records what is perhaps the greatest of all governmental efforts to enact and enforce a legal limit of commodity prices. Every fetter that could hinder the will or thwart the wisdom of democracy had been shattered, and in consequence every device and expedient that untrammelled power and unrepressed optimism could conceive were brought to bear.

But the attempts failed.

They left behind them a legacy of moral and material desolation and woe, from which one of the most intellectual and spirited races of Europe has suffered for a century and a quarter, and will continue to suffer until the end of time.

The actors of the Revolution were in fact dealing with some classic issues of macroeconomics, and far from being haphazard innovators or ignorant victims of incomprehensible phenomena, we see them as drawing upon contemporary economic thinking, as well as recent experiences in various countries. That they may have failed in a great number of respects does not deny them the presumption of rationality; nor of free will. They tried to solve problems they inherited from the Old Regime: both explicit problems, and implicit contradictions of the condemned order; but also problems of their own making. And as they searched for solutions, they relied on known methods, and experimented with new ones, discovering in the process many constraints on human action with which we still grapple today.

The confiscation of property rights under legal forms and processes is apt to be condoned when directed against unpopular interests and when limited to amounts that do not revolt the conscience. The wild and terrible expression given to these insidious principles in the havoc of the Revolution should be remembered by all. Nor should the fact be overlooked that, as Mr. White points out, the National Assembly of France which originated and supported these measures contained in its membership the ablest Frenchmen of the day.

Born in 1801 in the wake of this sad monetary and social chapter in human history, Frederic Bastiat advocated some principles that remain even today good words of guidance for each of us to live by. He said that we must strive to be responsible for ourselves. "Look to the State for nothing beyond law and order. Count on it for no wealth, no enlightenment. No more holding it responsible for our faults, our negligence, our improvidence. Count only on ourselves for our subsistence, our physical, intellectual, and moral progress!"

And what better way to tangibly ensure subsistence than to measure your progress with a sure and steady accumulation of physical gold! But caution about your methond remains the watchword -- given the ongoing political tug-o-war by the two sides over the expediency of confiscation.

"Still one thing more, fellow citizens -- a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned." --Thomas Jefferson in his first inaugural address

It is perhaps interesting that around the time of the 1933 gold confiscation by President Roosevelt (effectively ending the domestic gold standard as gold ownership for Americans remained unlawful until 1975), in promoting the various cautions presented in this document during the early years of the Great Depression of the United States, The Bank of New York participated in its distribution and offered these prefatory remarks of endorsement:

THE BANK OF NEW YORK AND TRUST COMPANY, which celebrates its one-hundred and fiftieth anniversary in March, 1934, considers it a privilege to be able to distribute some copies of this scholarly article of the late Andrew D. White. The article emphasizes the fact that the use of fiat money in France was in its beginning a sincere effort on the part of intelligent members of the National Assembly to stem the tide of misery and wretchedness which had brought about the Revolution in 1789. But the article also shows clearly that once started on a small scale, it became utterly impossible to control the currency inflation and that after some slight indications of improvement in conditions, the situation went from bad to worse. In the long run, those most injured were the people whom it was most desired to help--the laborer, the wage earner and those whose incomes from previous savings were smallest.

Click the link to be taken to this important history lesson, "Fiat Money Inflation in France" by Andrew Dickson White (1914). Images of assignats await your visit.

R.

Waverider (07/01/03; 10:28:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 105284)
Gold prices, metals shares higher :Merrill Lynch report forecasts increasing price trend
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B530CBE0A%2D0ACA%2D4D68%2DAD51%2D1460B905F34B%7D
Snip:
"Gold prices got a lift Tuesday morning thanks to fresh weakness in the dollar and a higher forecast from Merrill Lynch, boosting shares of metals companies for a third-straight session. The fundamentals for the precious metal are "extremely positive" and "able to support a considerably higher gold price than we originally thought," Mike Jalonen, an analyst at Merrill Lynch, wrote in a new report. Jalonen cited expectations of prolonged weakness in the U.S. dollar over the next 18 months. Other factors include declining mine supply, stable central banks sales and continued de-hedging among producers."

a nation of one (07/01/03; 09:57:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 105283)
about Mister Greenspan

One thing consistently surprises me above all others. This forum is filled with intelligent people, many of whom are directly involved in financial matters one way or another. And the Internet web sites that I see are conducted by very informed and highly intelligent people also. Why is it then, that I never read of the possibility that what is happening -to the US economy, the dollar, the markets, Gold, the interest rate, the value of bonds- could be the result of deliberate and knowing intentions by those in positions to bring them about? To me it seems clear that the effects of Mister Greenspan's actions are the result of a skillful execution of long-range strategy intended to destroy our nation by means of the weapon of economics, and that this is not incidental but primary to his intention, and to the intention of others. This is why his verbage is obscuring. It is a deception that goes along with the intention.

Everyone agrees that damage to our nation is occurring. But everyone gives the impression of believing that
it is caused by nothing more than a slipshod handling of the elements of economics. Such a view must be
false, when it can be seen that those involved are highly qualified in their subjects.


a nation of one (7/1/03; 09:45:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 105282)
...

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on its favors that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

*** The truth of the above statement needs to be overturned.


admin (7/1/03; 09:43:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 105281)
MK's Gold Commentary & Review
http://www.usagold.com/AMK/MK-gold.html
Updated.
New Quick Notes: "As the familiar pink pages flopped open on the dining room table this morning, the headline jumped off the page: 'BIS says Bush tax-cut 'not helpful'..... 'Odd that they would be so straight forward,' I thought......"
___________
Accompanying link to FT story:
Ed. Note: I'm not so certain it's the tax cut but the
level of borrowing and monetized debt that are the
true problems. Per the U.S. Treasury daily report,
the federal government has added $361 billion to the
national debt so far this fiscal year. At that rate, the
pro rata real fiscal deficit will be in the $600 billion
range for fiscal year 2003 -- much of it financed by
Federal Reserve purchases of U.S. treasuries, i.e.,
running the printing press. As a cross reference to
the BIS concerns, I would recommend "A Thought
or Two after Reading Andrew Dickon White's
'Fiat Money Inflation in France' over the
Weekend " in the far right column which provides a
link to Dickon's essay at the end.
________
Gold up over $4........


a nation of one (7/1/03; 09:12:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 105279)
Tacitus, post # 105259

"That isn't so bad but if 10,000 were invested for 35 years and obtained
17% nominal return but endured a 10 percent inflation rate annually, the
real return would only be $86,868.

I do not understand the mathematics behind this."

*** If you will do the calculations by hand, step by step, using a pencil
and paper, you will understand it.



Zhisheng (7/1/03; 08:38:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 105278)
Not the way the pundits explain it.
Gold up is leading the dollar down today!

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (7/1/03; 08:28:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 105277)
Ask about balancing your risks with a balanced portfolio of bullion and gold coins
http://www.usagold.com/gold-coins.html






Melting Pot (7/1/03; 06:28:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 105276)
@Slingshot
"I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs....I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgiveable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected." -- John Danforth (R-Mo)

"No constitutional right exists under the Ninth Amendment, or to any other provision of the Constitution of the United States, ‘to trust the Federal Government and to rely on the integrity of its pronouncements.’" - MAPCO, Inc. v Carter (1978, Em Ct App) 573 F2d 1268, cert den 437 us 904, 57 L Ed 2d 1134, 98 S Ct 3090.

Agree with your summation......American talent will be exported all over the globe to the benefit of the "SYSTEM" as planned.....

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

What better means is there for the transportation and globalization of fascist capitalism then to export the laws, customs and practices of the empire.

Thats what GATT and NAFTA are really about. The empire cannot force a Citizen to relocate, but through economic pressures they may force them to VOLUNTARILY relocate to spread the dis-ease.

Me thinks a big war is coming in the near future (Kondratieff Cycle plateau).....they always come! A big war and the post rebuild could be the medium employed to ATTRACT American intellectuals and know how to far away distant lands and cultures.

JMO

TownCrier (7/1/03; 04:02:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 105275)
Gold on the rise
http://www.neftegaz.ru/english/lenta/show.php?id=37133
excerpts:

01.July.2003 --
...In the first quarter, gold gained over $10 an ounce.

In this quarter, gold was behaving like a currency as all traders were speculating on a Fed rate cut and observing the incoming economic data.

The current discussion among some Islamic nations could influence gold in the coming weeks. The practicability of a gold-based dinar will be discussed in order to decrease the dollar dependency.

-----(from url)-----

Similar to a question you might get at your grocery store: Paper or gold?

Today the decision is yours.

R.

Black Blade (7/1/03; 03:28:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 105274)
Gold Goes Begging
http://www.marketwise.com/MW_Newsletters/MWBlackBox.html?ID=BBNL

Snippit:

I cannot say it often enough, or stridently enough, but here it is one more time: Gold is the no-brainer investment of our lifetime. Moreover, it offers an opportunity to leverage the destructive force of a millennial deflation that is certain to devastate the net worth of millions of investors, as well as to ravage valuations across a broad swath of asset classes. Let me go on record as having begged you to move immediately into gold, perhaps with 10-20% of your investment capital. Meanwhile, do not be fooled by the occasional downdrafts in the price of gold on futures markets.

Black Blade: Inflation/Stagflation/Deflation - having gold in your portfolio may just save it. Which ever way it goes a little insurance can go a long way.


Belgian (7/1/03; 03:16:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 105273)
@ Tacitus
6% on 100 = 106
7% on 100 = 107 minus 1% loss in purchasing power = 107 - 1,07 = 105,93.
Better off with 6% and no currency depreciation (106) than 7% and a 1% in currency depreciation (105,93).

That's "why" some (E)CB is so concerned about "price-stability" and prefers a stable internal growth instead of exhaustive economic/monetary wars, wich always end in tears !
The past and present Debt-driven political economy is landing in the general price-deflation, exactly because of having created environments where people, states can easely kill each other, economically. The "growth-obsession" that always gets out of hand by becoming destructive.

One can (must) remain very critical on the EU (euro) intentions of the Growth and STABILITY pact...but Euroland gives, at least, evidence of having "learned" its lessons from the past two WWs and monetary debacles.

*FreeGold* IS a solution and I'm getting more convinced by the day, that the EU is playing "its" game in "its" own house. EU (and others) wants OUT FROM UNDER THE DOLLAR SYSTEM !
Gold,...another GoldMarket,... is at the center of this process !

When looking at the euro-dollar exchange rate evolution ( + POG-POO)...we must decode this behavior as correctly as possible. Follow the difference in exchange rate versus the "local" AND "outside" purchasing power of both competing currencies...or should we say "systems" !!!-???
Wich one is turbulently Debt-driven (obsessed) and wich one desires to reach as much stability as possible ?
And what do "markets" prefer ? The euro is gaining "finance-preference" ! Oil production has become less responsive to US (dollar) demands ! The ugly (paper)GoldMarket is remarkably stabilizing regardless/despite the turbulences.

There is a growing general "political will" out there, that wants to escape from the dollar held world...and do it "before" dollar-dents makes it self implode in an inflalala blaze (your IR maths !). Reread FOA's "shoe-market" allegory.
Soon, at the appropiate moment, all political will to control Gold's price for the sake of world currencies will be gone...



Belgian (7/1/03; 01:16:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 105272)
Iran/BBC-World/Deflation
In 1973, the Shah of Iran, a Western pupet, doubled the POO (5,5$ > 11,2$) on a simple press conference. Note that the Shah's wife and children found refuge and are still living in France.
This as background for the present EU involvement with Iran's nuclear "problem". Reread FOA (hall of fame) when he elaborated on the 1970-1980 oil crisis.

Note that when all seem to panic about "general" price-inflation, the POO stays firmly where "they" want it to be !

The Shah-story might repeat itself for Iraq as well. Remember that when the Shah had to run for Khomeini, who returned to Iran from Paris, nobodody wanted to hospitalize the dying Shah. History might repeat itself, highly likely.

After the Dimona-Vanunu (Israel's nuclear reactor) story circulated on different other EU TV channels, it finally was on BBC World. A 180° turn !!! Hoi Tony .

Place all these events-facts as annexes (further context) to the fine historical analyses that The FOA-team made in '97-'00 (archives).

Allow me to remind us another of FOA's subtle syntaxes :
In our modern world, we must remove GOLD from the official money system and place it in a FREE MARKET (market - !!!)...and people will use it as WEALTH MONEY, NOT "borrowing" money. Thennnnnnnn the fiat can come and go as the wind !

If Gold can circulate in coin form and trade on a world PHYSICAL FREE MARKET, without legal tender status, it will become a perfect background-currency (dinar-?) for all mankind.
Destroy (humm) the banking aspects of Gold and let it all trade for physical settlement only.

Did Milton Friedman and Henry C K Liu read FOA !?
The dollar-oil-euro-Gold...

slingshot (7/1/03; 01:03:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 105271)
times never change
Cities have turned into jungles.
And corruption is strangling the land.
The police force is watching the people.
But the people just can't understand.
We don't know how to mind our own business.
Cause the whole world has to be just like us.
Now we are fighting a war over there.
No matter who's the winner, we can't pay the cost.
Yes , there's a Monster on the loose.
He has our head between the noose.

And it just sits there,watching.

Steppenwolf. Monster album. 1971

Gandalf the White (07/01/03; 00:20:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 105270)
Thank you, Sir Slingshot !
slingshot (06/30/03; 23:00:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 105267)
Midas Crusade
===
I and the Hobbits LOVE the start !
<;-)

slingshot (07/01/03; 00:10:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 105269)
Mr.Gresham Msg# 105261
Minimum Wage
Well, Mr Gresham, If you please allow me to add to your rant and hope to shed some light as to how I see it in todays world. Minimum wage will become the accepted wage. Nafta and Gatt will see to this. As industrial and manufacturing jobs go overseas the service jobs will increase. Yepper, more and more college grads will follow the money and leave the USA with an empty hulk. The price of further education will deter those with sheepskins to seek some financial stabilization before going on to higher
education. So not only do you have the decline in industrial and manufacture, you have the exodous of intellect. Another point , who will be able to purchase gold on a Wendy's Income? Sad state of affairs I say. So you tell your children to get a good education and what awaits them? Those BOZO"S in D.C. have screwed us all. Those who strive to improve their lives are squandered by the never ending welfare state and the greed of corporate CEO's.
Slingshot-------------- <>



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