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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/1/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Perplexed (07/01/01; 23:49:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 57320) Thanks Black Blade Black Blade thank you for the correct information. You are righ't it is not apathy. We are in the midst of change that few people are prepared to handle. Governments around the world are coming apart at the seams for the simple reason that the human race has matured, governments haven't. People are tired of having things happen too them.Of being forced into situations that affect their very lives and welfare, while being denied the opportunity of peaceful participation in the process. In this context, in my opinion the European "leaders" are constructing a human bomb and by removing their currency, denying last vistage of their nationality. And we in the US have several bombs just awaiting the match.As far as the oil fields, I was born in Wichita Falls Texas at the apex of the oil boom, when the Burkburnett field was creating millionairs daily. I was raised in Lubbock, just on the edge of the Snyder, Midland and Odessa fields. Had a good friend that was a Tool Pusher in Midland, and a younger brother who worked on a swabbing rig one summer. I had a boss that had changed jobs after a fall from the derrick into a slush pit. A co worker that changed after being released from the hospital as the result of a fall through a derrick, and another that got his hand crushed when a stack of casing shifted. I somehow missed the "opportunity" of working in the fields. At the time, comparetively, the roustabout job paid very good wages, especially for an inexperienced young man with no inkling at to the danger.Good night B.B and thanks again for the commentaries.Perplexed Black Blade (07/01/01; 23:42:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 57319) Key countries resolve to honour Kyoto without US http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4213511,00.html Snippit:The complete isolation of the United States on the issue of climate change moved a step closer yesterday when Europe, Japan and Russia ended a meeting in the Hague saying they wanted to complete the deal to cut greenhouse gas emissions.Black Blade: Curious isn't it? Even these critics of the US position on the Kyoto Accords won't even sign on to the treaty. Only Romania has signed. Even Australia has backed off and sided with the US. We await to see if these other countries are serious enough to sign on while the US isn't so easily duped. Netking (07/01/01; 23:35:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57318) Plug fuel cells added to Long Island Power's generating mix http://albany.bcentral.com/albany/stories/2001/07/02/story5.html Snippit:"Long Island Power Authority will connect 75 fuel cells from Latham-based Plug Power Inc. (Nasdaq: PLUG) to its electric grid at its West Babylon substation. It is part of a $7 million program aimed at demonstrating how fuel-cell technology may generate electricity for residential customers. Site planning is under way and construction is expected to start in July, LIPA said. The fuel cells being made by Plug are expected to produce more than 1 million kilowatt hours of electricity--enough to power about 100 average-size homes--over the duration of the five-year program. . . ." Black Blade (07/01/01; 23:23:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 57317) State: Californians cut power use 12 percent last month http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/07/01/state1819EDT0153.DTL&type=news Snippit:California businesses and residents cut electricity use by 12 percent in June compared with the same period last year, state officials said Sunday -- proof, they said, that the governor's plan for coping with a tight power supply is working. "The people of California are speaking very loudly and very effectively," S. David Freeman, senior energy adviser to Gov. Gray Davis, said Sunday in a conference call with reporters.Black Blade: Now if a heat wave rolls in, I wonder if the Grasshoppers will turn on the air conditioners or sit in sweltering ovens. Hmmm I think I know the answer. Black Blade (07/01/01; 23:16:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57316) Reports: State grid operator behind plant's output swings http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/07/01/state2015EDT0165.DTL&type=news Snippit:The operator of the state's power grid has acknowledged that it was responsible for swings in production at a power plant that Gov. Gray Davis held as an example of price gouging by out-of-state energy companies. The Los Angeles Times and Charlotte Observer reported Sunday that the California Independent System Operator told its oversight board that records showed Duke Energy was following orders to help balance the grid -- not seeking to drive up prices. Black Blade: "Red" Davis should own up and tell the Grasshoppers that he lied to them. However, being a politician, we know that he will never do that. The ISO had more to do with the higher charges as they ordered the operation of some older closed power plants that had to implement multiple high cost start up and shut down operations during the state's peak energy load periods. Meanwhile the state is allowing the construction of natural gas "peaker" plants. There is no provision for finding the extra NG however. There are more "server farms" being built and coming online than there is sufficient new energy to power them. About one new "server farm" comes online every week, and each requires about as much energy as a small city. "Red" and his buddies had better kick it into high gear. "Interesting Times" indeed. Black Blade (07/01/01; 22:45:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 57315) RE: Perplexed Actually it was Finland that repaid its War Debt to the US (with interest!). I have to agree that it is a sad commentary when we think of all the sacrifice by many in the name of freedom and patriotism, that our rulers have such a stranglehold on the country that they can subvert the Constitution and line their pockets without fear. I don't necessarily think that it is all apathy, but rather a knowledge that we the people, the serfs, are really powerless to stop them. All three branches of government appear to be bought and paid for. Gold tucked away somewhere safe provides a bit of economic freedom. Cheers!- Black Blade Perplexed (07/01/01; 22:31:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 57314) Response to re re I have no idea how you arrived at the assumption that the war debt owed to the US was satisfied in its entirity.There was only one nation, Norway to the best my recollection that paid the debt, no other even paid the interest. It was eventually written off.In the late 60s and early 70s, Charles DeGaule attempted to convert bonds to gold while France still owed its entire debt. I was a young adult with a family so I have no problem remembering the animosity this created, especially among the generation who had liberated France.The analogy quote: It is tanamount to buy brand new furniture while sending your old one (against payment x interest for sure)to your neighbor after you have broken everything in his house: unquote, is not only insulting but totally discredits your post.As I recall, and I am old enough to do just that, we entered the war after Hitler had already accomplished the deed for which you choose credit the US.Your effort toward sarcasm in response my own would have been effective had it had anything to do with context.I participate in this forum because of my interest in gold, I am however a realist. Your statement: quote "I would be happy to comply provided you send me back your gold that so many of you despise. If I was Chinese, I could deplete your vaunted gold stock in 24 hours flat." unquoteWhy would I send you my gold because someone else despises it? How would your nationality affect your ability to deplete the US gold supply? If you presently possess the means of accomplishing the act, how would the fact that you are not Chinese affect the equation?As far as US benevolence, I do not believe in it at the present time either. The focus of every policy is now wealth power or both, not only in this nation but world wide. The leaders (and I use the term with trepidation) under which most of us live, are doing far more damage to their citizenry than the actions of any foreign government. This was not true at the time of World War II. Perhaps you and many others of the present generation do not appreciate the real danger and just how close Europe, the Balkans, Scandanavia, and Great Britain were to being conquored. There are very few historians, if any, that will dispute the fact that sans US production capacity and military power projected at considerable cost of American lives, the map of the present world would look considerably different. If you believe the US to be a rutless taskmaster, envision the world under the SS.Which brings us back to the analogy in my post of the western movie script. Once the man with the gun saves the day, his hero persona soon vanishes, to be replaced with abhorrance.re I am not thin skinned, brissling at every criticizm of the US. Much of it is warranted, and if you have followed my post of the last two years you are well aware of the fact that I have leveled my share. I am very thin skinned when it comes to the discounting of the supreme sacrifice made by average Americans, who willingly interrupted their lives only to be buried in cemetaries around the world. Good dayPerplexed Gene (07/01/01; 22:28:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 57313) Constitution- Let it be said that ever since the US Congress pissed all over the 10th Amendment,our citizens lost their freedom.We shall never retrieve it again without throwing the bastards out. If you truly believe in America, how it was founded,the bill of rights, and your personal liberty, you will never again vote for an incumbent. Gene (07/01/01; 22:16:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 57312) GATA Lawsuit Gosh, I thought that end of June was decision time for discovery or dismissal of Mr. Howes lawsuit.Do you know what is the current status? Maybe this is all just conjecture since everyone knows the cabal can buy all the judges in any court system in the US of A. Black Blade (07/01/01; 22:16:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 57311) RE: turbohawg Good to see you here. The reason I think that George Dubya will be Hooverized is that the system is broken. The mechanics who are needed to fix the system just aren't around anymore. The two parties are more interested in bickering and scuttling each others plans to solve problems and crises for political mileage. There is a reason Bubba put off-limits much of the most prospective land positions from exploration and production of energy and mineral resources. That reason is to suck up to extremists environmentalists and to sandbag the economy so that the opposition could be blamed. We also came to the end of the easy money cycle with the demise of the Tech and Dot-Bomb manias as investors began to understand the folly of extreme equity valuations. There are many other reasons, but these tend to stand out. Over the next few years the energy crisis will slowly squeeze the economy (slow burn) as new natural gas-fired power plants are built and then the industry and government realizes that these power plants actually need natural gas for fuel - oops! Then electricity prices will really begin to rise significantly. From my contacts in the petroleum industry they all see it happening, however, they are content to just let the crisis build momentum. After all, they are vilified as robber barons and not allowed to pursue developing the energy supply necessary to avoid economic disaster. They have been lonely voices in the wilderness crying out that there are serious problems on the horizon. We are approaching "Interesting" times. Don't wait so long to visit again - Cheers!- Black Blade turbohawg (07/01/01; 21:33:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 57310) Black Blade >Black Blade (06/30/01; 16:52:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 57265)RE: CanuckWe also no longer see or hear from many posters from days gone by. Aristotle is one. Others include Aragorn III, Koan, North of 49, etc. We rarely hear from Turbohawg, flierdude, Y2K, and many others. I am sure some lurk while others are caught up in other affairs. Maybe these guys will drop in to say hello occasionally. Cheers!<Hello occasionally ! Sorry. Thanks for the thought. Yes, still lurking out here with more to say than I'm willing to take the time to write down. Lately, I've been enjoying all the good debate and good humor provided by the Forum (I wonder if RossL is still with us). Took a leave from the internet and posting nearly two years ago coincident with a leave from reading the paper everyday or watching the news. That worked out so well that when I resumed my cyber travels, I chose not to resume participating in on-line discussions other than to make an occasional observation or comment. I still don't watch the news and my newspaper delivery was cut to weekends only. Political activities have been sharply curtailed as well. Three months ago I was downsized out of my job.Damn I feel good ! Speaking of observations, I've noted your recent expectation of Bush to get Hoover-ized. Two years ago I was thinking the exact same thought. Now I'm not so sure. In fact, I'm thinking this time will be different. My reasoning is based on a couple of (related) factors. Let me run this by you.One factor is the trend of things now vs then. The years preceding Hoover were marked by a trend toward growing Marxist influence in this country and around the world. For instance, our central bank was created, unions were gaining strength (and with Hoover's direct involvement), communism and fascism were taking root elsewhere, etc. Today is different. The left reached its pinnacle of success (if you want to call it that) in the mid-60s with the Great Society and the rejection of Barry Goldwater's constitutionalism. Since then, the predictable failures of such a flawed ideology and morality have become apparent to a growing number of people, with the Democratic Party largely reduced to a group of extremists as leftist as any political party in the world. Despite relentless assaults on his character, Reagan's consistent message of freedom (if lacking in substantial action) was popular. The Republican 94 takeover of Congress caught the left and its media trumpeteers by complete surprise. At the same time, the Republican Party is now recognizing that they would still have control of Congress if LP candidates had not drawn a considerable number of votes in certain Congressional races. Recent articles have pointed out that Bush has surrounded himself with a considerable number of libertarians and libertarian-conservatives (much to the writers dismay, but which suggest that he's at least getting some good counsel; now if only he can make good decisions.) Freer trade is breaking out across the world in spite of govt attempts to extort and profit from it through so-called free trade agreements. The ECB had to use the deception of gold backing to help legitimize the introduction of another fiat currency. In a more general sense, there is widespread distrust of government throughout the world. Clearly, the forces of freedom are growing in momentum.A second factor is the influence of cycles. The more I (casually and for fun) study them, the more I see them playing out in various aspects of life. Short, intermediate, and long term cycles are always in play, sometimes working in concert as they converge and other times working against each other as they diverge. The stock market provides a great lab for those who do serious cycle work as it quantifies cycles. George Lindsay was a master. His analysis of market, social, and political cycles of varying lengths provides some incredible insights into how to use upcoming cycle intervals to help anticipate change. Among his many discoveries were 36 and 40 year cycles +/- one year. At the completion of a cycle of such length as counted from what Lindsay termed an emotional agitation (or physical agitation such as a rebellion), the winner of the previous agitation often suffers a serious setback as the loser regains ground. If the Great Society's triumph over freedom properly qualifies as an emotional agitation, then at around the 40 year interval we can expect the forces of statism to take a real hit. Other cyclic factors indicate that any such transistion will come with great difficulty. Interestingly, Martin Armstrong's Princeton Economic Institute has predicted that one of America's two major parties will fail in 2004. What if history has set the Democratic Party up to create its own demise with its recent takeover of the Senate ? Bush might even come out looking like a strong, liberty-loving leader. Ha !There is much more cycle evidence to bolster this line of thinking that is intentionally being left out to limit the length of this post. And pinpointing exact time frames for dramatic change as opposed to slow change requires analysis of the interplay of various cycles. Also note that this reflects only *my interpretation of the varying possibilities * derived from Lindsay's work as applied to today and I'll readily concede that there is no lack of wishful thinking involved.Hey, your continuing reports on the energy situation are appreciated, Black Blade, and especially your witty perspective of those reports.hAug Black Blade (07/01/01; 21:22:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 57309) RE: Trurl - Gold For Freedom A country such as the US that slips into corruption and ignores its own Constitution and Bill of Rights is doomed to failure, or at the very least likely to ultimately adopt a Totalitarian form of government. The Bill of Rights has been systematically declared "null and void" by the US Supreme Court. Sure, it is just a matter of semantics in many cases as defined in decisions such as those concerning the Seizure and Forfeiture Act (license to steal) signed into law by Daddy Bush. The Forth and Fifth amendments for example are simply ignored and it is now legal for law enforcement and the judicial system to engage in theft and perjury. That is why gold as insurance is more necessary than ever. Gold can be hidden and transported fairly easily. It can cross borders and be used just about anywhere. If it becomes necessary to leave the US for another place to reside, gold could be of more use than the USD. Let's face it, the US border is quite porous and unhindered travel to Canada, US, and Caribbean (and central-south America for that matter). Gold has been used by various peoples to gain their passage to freedom in the past and probably will be useful for such again. Think of those in National Socialist Europe in the 1930's and 1940's, and more recently those in the Balkans who bought passage to freedom with gold. Who knows what the future holds and that alone is a reason to hold gold. What the USG doesn't know, won't hurt you. Cheers!- Black Blade Turnaround (07/01/01; 21:20:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 57308) both sides now http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htm Hi Journeyman!!!!Journeyman (07/01/01; 20:40:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 57305)Greenspan's change of mind @Randy"However there was a story posted here in the last month or so claiming that a reporter, managing to cite Greenspan one of his old more radical pro-gold statements from his "former life," asked him if he'd change anything he had said, Greenspan was reported to have replied something like, "Not one word.""I remember seeing that as well. He can and does speak quite frankly on occasion, particularly when Ron Paul questions him.Sierra Madre, I've got mine, to be sure, but we do share some of it as well.http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htmThe Credit Bubble Bulletin - by Doug Noland June 29, 2001"...I think much of the current misconception is related to the fact that the consensus views financial system developments over this long expansion as very much a "natural" progression, benefiting tremendously from the consequences of innovation, deregulation and "free markets." Seeing things in a similar vein to "real economy" technological improvements and advancement, the contemporary U.S. financial sector is indeed a "new and improved" model - "the latest and greatest," much like the most recent Intel Pentium processor, Dell PC, or Cisco router. And just like we would not open up the back of a computer to try to understand its components, the bullish consensus seems to have little interest in digging into the intricacies of this most complex financial system. Instead of seeing a "wildcat" system spewing uncontrolled money and credit excess wherever it can make a quick buck, there is blind faith in a sophisticated and "efficient" financial apparatus "effectively" allocating "capital." And while we nervously ponder the ramifications of faltering liquidity for a credit mechanism dominated by security issuance, derivative trading, and leveraged speculation, ideology allows others the comfort of assuming that such a wonderful unfettered "free market" financial system will by its very nature continue to operate smoothly and for the good of all society. It is not easy to have a meaningful debate with these two views operating on very different planes..." Varda (07/01/01; 21:13:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57307) Tree in the Forest , Trurl Thank you both. SHIFTY (07/01/01; 21:08:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 57306) Periodic Ponzi Update PPU Nasdaq 2,160.54 + Dow 10,502.40 = 12,662.94 divide by 2 = 6331.47 ponziUp 11.76 from last weekNo link tonight because my computer is not working.I'm using Mrs. $hifty's computer and she has very few gold sites in here.Sir RossL: thanks for the link even though I cant provide it tonight.I have a hunch we may see fireworks this week. <:-)$hifty Journeyman (07/01/01; 20:40:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 57305) Greenspan's change of mind @Randy Hi Sir Randy,You suggested that after 35 years of experience, Greenspan may have changed his mind about the gold standard.However there was a story posted here in the last month or so claiming that a reporter, managing to cite Greenspan one of his old more radical pro-gold statements from his "former life," asked him if he'd change anything he had said, Greenspan was reported to have replied something like, "Not one word."Regards,Journeyman Trurl (07/01/01; 20:29:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 57304) Worse possible case for gold -- what is it? AllI would like to start a discussion of the worst possible case for gold over the next few years. What we have now is a slow burn in the perceived US dollar value of gold, but isn't by any means the worst thing that could happen ( actually, its quite nice if you are on the buy side ).Here are some of my concerns; please, add to this listIn the US at least, we are ruled by what the public will accept, rather than any rule of law. This means it wouldn't be too hard to turn public opinion against gold. We have this ongoing war on drugs, and various invasive bank related regulations have been created to track and follow the money. It would seem to me to be a logical step to have gold cast as the outlaw money of drug dealers. Thus there might be less public outcry at what ever steps are taken to confiscate it.Now this is a new era, and the gov has gotten more subtle than the 1930's. They don't have to take it from you by force. They can get you when you try to sell it. Especially with a high dollar gold value if you don't report the cash sale of your $30,000 gold eagle, they have the apparatus of the IRS to use on you.Similarly, with asset forfiture a fact, largely the gov can take illegal things with no due process or compensation.In other words, you may have maxed out your credit cards and have your gold stash. But, it might be suprisingly difficult to sell the one coin to pay off your debts.This is not just an abstract, couldn't-ever-really-happen exercise. I have spoken to friends from South Africa. For years there were restrictions on the gold coins they could take out of the country. But jewelry was ok. They had me laughing with the descriptions of some of the proof-link size gold chain some people where taking! Journeyman (07/01/01; 20:27:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 57303) beesting? Are you still there??Regards,J. Sierra Madre (07/01/01; 20:14:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 57302) Megatron...the way of the world... About Greenie....that's the way the cookie crumbles....Nice guys...finish lastNever give a sucker an even break...The heros at Omaha Beach were the patsies. The Greenies were in Commisariat, quite comfortable and safe.The way of the world.There are two kinds of people: "Sheep on the right, goats on the left".Thus it shall ever be.Sierra Trurl (07/01/01; 20:05:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 57301) (No Subject) Hi VardaAs usual asking a question results in you being asked questions. The main idea is to know why you are buying gold coins? If it is just a store of value, indeed the larger gold coins have a lower price premium.But if you are following the TG/FOA/Another discussion, another consideration presents itself. If indeed gold goes up dramatically in $ price, it might be more difficult to sell a large coin to anyone other than a dealer. Also, If the dollar truly tanks ( gold to the $xx,xxx ) there are tax and privacy implications, sinceIn the US, for example, cash transactions over $10000, and in some cases $3000, must be reported to the gov.Thus many people get a mix some large ones, and some smaller ones. The old European coins often have a premium not too much greater than similar current bullion coins.Hope this helps Tree in the Forest (07/01/01; 19:42:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 57300) Varda You will find a lower premium on the larger bullion coins ie 1 oz. So you save money on buying fewer larger coins than many small coins. Different coins have different premiums depending on where you are because many people prefer their native coins. Thus in the US, 1 oz Eagles cost more than 1 oz Kruggerands. You can call Centennial Precious Metals and they can give you specific prices on bullion coins. Varda (07/01/01; 19:33:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 57299) Gold Coin To all:Need a doctrine from Gold Advocates about "which coin to acquire"(1oz .... or 1/25, Panda ..... or Krug[is it realy matters?)Thanks Tree in the Forest (07/01/01; 18:47:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 57298) megatron, Black Blade Well I can't vouch for Greenspan's integrity because I don't know the man personally. But that is not my point. I do know that people stupidly hang on every word they say and as a result, they are reluctant to say anything. For people like Greenspan, Duisenberg etc., every time they pass gas, the Euro tanks, the dollar tanks, the market tanks etc. etc. If I were they, I would quickly learn how to incoherently mumble too. Netking (07/01/01; 17:33:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 57297) Link for previous post. http://finance.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,2244063%255E462,00.html Sorry, forgot the link from the previous post, herewith. regards Murray Netking (07/01/01; 17:29:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 57296) Greenspan adds to gold's tale of woe (from the Au press) What are they saying way down there? Snippit: ". . . The latest fly in the ointment for the yellow metal was US Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan. When the Fed cut interest rates by just 0.25 per cent instead of 0.5 per cent, the US dollar strengthened and gold futures were pushed lower as long positions were liquidated. . . . . . . A footnote to the Barrick-Homestake merger: the older partner, Homestake, demonstrates that gold is a pretty safe haven when times are tough. Anyone who bought Homestake stock just after Wall St crashed in October 1929 and held on right through the Great Depression until 1935 would over the five years have received $US128 in dividends on each share a considerable sum in those days. In addition, they would have enjoyed capital appreciation of 520 per cent on the value of Homestake shares, which by 1935 were worth $US495 each." megatron (07/01/01; 16:35:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 57295) BTW The argument that Greenspan 'knows' what happens to those who fight the fed is even more sickening,if it is plausible.Men ran through a hail of bullets on Omaha beach, men laid on hand grenades to save others in Italy, men laid in leech filled trenches in Gualalcanal, men dropped nuclear weapons on other men's families, men burnt alive on the decks of carriers!!! If that son%$@#@%@#ch cannot simply stand up in front of people and say what he means, without fear, in the knowledge that what he says is true, then I can see why Doug Casey refused to shake his hand. Then he is an embarassment to the human race. Black Blade (07/01/01; 16:30:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 57294) RE: Peter Asher - A Second Oil Shortage: Experienced Workers That was a very good article and quite true. They won't get many new workers either. Even though many are abandoning mining for the petroleum patch. Most of today's petroleum workers have had to suffer through the Boom-Bust cycle and have lost everything. Why would they want to do that over and over? The same is happening with mining. The Boom towns of Northern Nevada are good examples. Look at the towns of Elko, Ely, Winnemucca, and Tonopah. They are fast becoming ghost towns while large miners go belly-up. These poor people are trapped into high mortgages with falling real estate values. In some places people can buy homes for pennies on the dollar. This does not bode well for these mining companies when metals and minerals prices rebound and they can't recruit experienced or willing employees. In the oil and gas patch many companies have set up recruiters outside of prisons looking for workers. Many new employees are likely to be felons. The reason is quite simple. It is the culture of the easy buck. Working in petroleum on drill rigs and in the oil field is not easy work and it does not pay as well as many other jobs. Again, the Boom-Bust cycle in petroleum has resulted in few experienced workers willing to go through the cycle of losing everything that they worked for when the cycle goes from Boom to Bust. One can not blame them. Costs for energy will have to go higher - much higher in order to attract workers to give it "one more try." It now looks as if petroleum prices are going to remain higher as the demand for energy is increasing and will likely continue to increase as the population grows and the ?New Economy" expands. Add to that the desire for clean fuels such as natural gas, and the natural gas powered "fuel cell" technology. We are entering into interesting times. Cheers! - Black Blade Black Blade (07/01/01; 16:29:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 57293) RE: megatron It is called selling out for a price. Sellin out for public adulation and a few bucks. I have a hard time believing that this is the same Rand-Objectivist Greenspan that wrote about freedom and "honest" money. Cheers!- Black Blade megatron (07/01/01; 16:24:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 57292) Black Blade/Tree This is what angers/confuses me most about the man, is that he could write one of the most lucid documents about freedom and the 'American Way' ever written, and on the other hand do nothing in 13 years that remotely approaches the philosophical integrity of the document. Every time I read it I get inspired. Every school child should recite it. Yet, in my 10 years of following this subject ,I've seen nothing to indicate he is anything but one of the biggest 'statists' the world has ever seen. Peter Asher (07/01/01; 16:00:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57291) Randy , ORO, TG and ALL Randy, You and TG seem to be advocating a 'Commodity Gold' that cannot be 'alienated' I am suggesting Gold floating free as an international currency, say in coins that stipulate weight and purity, not fiat value, on their face. We could call then Gaeas! And,as much as I agree with much of ORO's take on all this, I can't seem to cull out exactly what system of gold exchange he is proposing.How about you or ORO or TG describing these three alternatives in a way that they can be compared and contrasted. Without the whys and wherefores, just the mechanics! Netking (07/01/01; 15:55:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 57290) Gold standard - Greenspan The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists (government bureaucrats) to use the banking system as an unlimited expansion of credit. In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation... Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process." - Alan Greenspan. Turnaround (07/01/01; 15:43:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57289) nullius juris Sierra Madre (07/01/01; 12:30:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57282)Orville Goldenbacher...the Masons"Turnaround: that internal support mechanism for the dollar is a good simple illustration of a complex phenomenon."Yes, I was using everyday examples to illustrate a game-theroetic/complex/dynamical system."I've got mine, Jack"...(smile) Jack replies: "Good luck, Joe! with those papers that say you're a millionaire!"The drivers accept the daily road conditions as a given reality, not really thinking about the cliff just past yonder rise. The NASDAQ crash illustrates.Tree in the Forest (07/01/01; 13:22:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 57283)The Stranger"Thank you for the post of Alan Greenspan's thoughts. As I have said, this is not a stupid man. I don't understand why people curse him so. He is in charge of a failing currency. He did not cause it to fail. He did not separate it from gold. He did not create the Federal Reserve. These things were done by others. What do you want the man to do? At this point his hand is pretty much forced and he does what he has to. He has one tool, interest rates, and it is not working. He knows what's coming. I think people just want to blame someone and he is high profile so they blame him. The truth is, there is very little he could have done."Just so. Mr Greenspan also has to operate in the real world like all the rest of us. He is probably familiar with the pattern of mysterious deaths of presidents (McKinley, Garfield, Lincoln, Kennedy) and Congressmen (McFadden, Patman (?), McDonald, etc) that fight the Fed. Maybe that's where the expression originated.Randy (@ The Tower) (07/01/01; 14:50:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57285)Gold and Economic Freedom -- by Alan Greenspan"Since then, the structure of the world has changed, and Alan [Greenspan] and I have both grow up in an environment that has given us many new things to think about and consider. Clearly, that last effort at a gold standard failed to meet its objectives for a stable monetary system with stable prices. It also obscured the value of gold. Because of this, even if it had be lawful for Americans to own and save gold, "Sir Randy, it has always been lawful for Americans to own, use save and trade with gold. This is what Mr. Greenspan is referring to with "...stands as a protector of property rights". Property rights, as you know, are the foundation of inalienable human rights. A person without any property rights is called a "slave". The reason these rights are inalienable is as simple and sublime a tautology as E=MC^2:There is no prior Grantor for the Grantor of these rights. Alternatively, if one believes in a Prime Grantor, the same logic holds.Our original and organic law in these parts (the USA), the Declaration of Independence and subsequent Constitution, simply acknowleges this a priori fact. Therefore, fiats, decrees, delegations of authority on the part of Congress, redefinitions of critical legal terms such as "person" and so forth are nullius juris, of no legal force. This is also called "color of law", as noted in Reginald Howe's case."If Alan were to rewrite this commentary today, it would look considerably different. With thirty-five additional years of age, experience, and a more fully evolved financial landscape, he would see that the solution to the problem for savers would have to be founded upon a sturdy base of free market gold -- a gold wealth standard."I am *still* not convinced that gold and fraud-currency can circulate together in a stable monetary system. I've read all of Aristotle, Trail Guide and Another, your debates with ET, and so on. If gold is not used for daily transactions, electronically or otherwise, held as 100% backing in a warehouse, then it seems to me it cannot obtain its full monetary premium and therefore cannot be a stable savings vehicle. It willl still be subject to inflation/deflation of the unlawful-currency supply. Black Blade (07/01/01; 15:36:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 57288) Alan Greenspan? Some people have a high opinion of Alan Greenspan. Some people believe that the use of complicated word patterns and little used terminology equates to brilliance. He may very well be quite intelligent. However, I prefer "Honesty." If he is willing to shelve ethics and honesty in order to maintain a place in history, then I have no respect for the man. His testimony before the Senate (Humphrey-Hawkins) is an absolute waste of time. He is the star monkey chattering away before an audience of apes. These clowns in the Senate sit glassy-eyed and with mouths agape while he chirps, and then they heap praise upon him knowing full well that they did not understand a single utterance. He purposely refuses to answer "yes" or "no" to the most simplistic questions. He should come clean with the American people - he should clearly and cogently explain what he and the central bankers are doing and why - He won't, it does not require great communication skills, and therefore I see no honor in the man. Cheers!- Black Blade Tree in the Forest (07/01/01; 15:03:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 57287) megatron I understand what you want him to do, but I don't think he is capable. Some men are great communicators, others are not. Our illustrious ex-president is an example of the former. He can talk his way into or out of anything. But I wouldn't give you 2 cents for the man. Many politicians are great communicators. It allows them to run for office and get into power. Once they're in office, it's psychopath city. Other types of men are deep thinkers, very intellectual. But they couldn't communicate well enough to tell you what time it is. They may be better with the written word. I think this characterizes Greenspan. His job is not communications and in fact none of the Fed chairmen that I have seen were great communicators. You have to choose men who are appropriate for the job and for Fed chairmen, communications is not part of the job description. megatron (07/01/01; 15:00:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 57286) Randy Well said. Good point. Whatever the outcome of the credit spiral one will rue the day they did not buy physical gold at these prices. Randy (@ The Tower) (07/01/01; 14:50:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57285) Gold and Economic Freedom -- by Alan Greenspan http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/archives/3020016/default.html Thanks for that Saturday repost, Sir Stranger. (URL above -- msg#: 57270))To anyone who hasn't read it yet, I suggest they do so. In the process, they will see Mr. Greenspan say such words as follows:--- "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value..."----However, it is helpful to put this commentary of his in the right context. Alan wrote this in the mid 1960's, and I can assure you, we've both done a fair bit of growing up in the past three and a half decades, with thoughts and opinions that have changed along with the world around us.Back in the mid-Sixties, when this was written, the U.S. was on an international gold exchange standard as a product of the post-WWII Bretton Woods treaty (1944). The international agreement pegged the dollar money at a fixed exchange standard with one thrity-fifth of an ounce of physical gold. And for the next thirty years, the world wheeled and dealed with an ever-growing quantity of dollar credits. The quantity of gold in the U.S. Treasury vaults that supposedly "backed" these dollar credits only slowly (relatively speaking) moved from account to account. And because of the exchange rate peg, what the gold certainly did NOT do was rise in exchange-rate value against the dollar credits, even though the gold supply was not expanding at near the pace the dollar supply was expanding. Meanwhile, the average price of nearly everything else was doubling due to the dollar inflation.Also, it is important for you to bear in mind that in the mid-Sixties when Alan wrote this commentary, it was illegal for Americans to own gold bullion.The fixed-exchange "gold standard" did not put the brakes on the creation of new dollar credit money, but only served to tie down gold's free market value. By "decree", for as long as the gold exchange standard could be kept in place, gold was doomed to mirror the market value that the inflating dollar was suffering.Since then, the structure of the world has changed, and Alan and I have both grow up in an environment that has given us many new things to think about and consider. Clearly, that last effort at a gold standard failed to meet its objectives for a stable monetary system with stable prices. It also obscured the value of gold. Because of this, even if it had be lawful for Americans to own and save gold, the attachment of gold to dollars via the "gold standard" would STILL have made it impossible for them to protect their savings from the effects of the monetary inflation. Bear in mind, it was the dollar supply that was inflating, not the gold supply.If Alan were to rewrite this commentary today, it would look considerably different. With thirty-five additional years of age, experience, and a more fully evolved financial landscape, he would see that the solution to the problem for savers would have to be founded upon a sturdy base of free market gold -- a gold wealth standard. megatron (07/01/01; 13:43:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 57284) Tree I would not blame Greenspan for others mistakes. My point of contention about the man is his constant(self-admitted) obfuscation about very fundamental changes that should be made. If he REALLY believed what he says, a person of honour will ALWAYS, PUBLICLY state his position/philosophy without muttering/using arcane speech patterns to 'confuse' the general uneducated public. If he believes there should be a gold standard then he should be yelling it from the treetops in VERY CLEAR language. Every chance he gets. A man in his position who says "no one would listen" is a joke. That is a pathetic excuse. EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN. That is what he/they fear. Tree in the Forest (07/01/01; 13:22:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 57283) The Stranger Thank you for the post of Alan Greenspan's thoughts. As I have said, this is not a stupid man. I don't understand why people curse him so. He is in charge of a failing currency. He did not cause it to fail. He did not separate it from gold. He did not create the Federal Reserve. These things were done by others. What do you want the man to do? At this point his hand is pretty much forced and he does what he has to. He has one tool, interest rates, and it is not working. He knows what's coming. I think people just want to blame someone and he is high profile so they blame him. The truth is, there is very little he could have done. Sierra Madre (07/01/01; 12:30:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57282) Orville Goldenbacher...the Masons Well, Orville, I could say a lot about the Masons.However, I won't because I don't want my "code pulled"!Turnaround: that internal support mechanism for the dollar is a good simple illustration of a complex phenomenon."I've got mine, Jack"...(smile) Jack replies: "Good luck, Joe! with those papers that say you're a millionaire!"Thought for the day (mine anyway):"Do you knowWhere you're goin' to....?Do you likeThe things that life is showin' you...?Do you know....?"Sierra Peter Asher (07/01/01; 10:12:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 57281) A Second Oil Shortage: Experienced Workers July 1, 2001By NEELA BANERJEE Copyright 2001 The New York Times For Pablo Hadzeriga to leave the profession he loved, it took a terse letter from his employer as he returned from his honeymoon.At the time, in 1992, Mr. Hadzeriga was a seasoned petroleum engineer who had survived several rounds oflayoffs that had cost thousands of highly educated people their jobs and left many friends struggling to pay theirmortgages. He estimated that his employer, Maxus Energy, had whittled it staff, to about 560 people fromalmost 7,000, as oil prices tumbled.Then it was his turn. Maxus Energy mailed Mr. Hadzeriga a letter that began by referring to him as "a formerMaxus employee."Mr. Hadzeriga found work again in his field with another company and eventually moved back to hishometown, Denver, from Dallas. But when the chance came in 1995 to abandon oil and the manic fate ofworking in a boom-and-bust industry he grabbed it. "It wasn't a decision about money: I took a pay cutcoming here," said Mr. Hadzeriga, 42, who now works as a product development manager at a plasticscompany. "I'm leaving behind the highs and lows of the oil industry."Now the oil industry is prospering again, thanks to a doubling of natural gas prices and a tripling of oil pricessince late 1998. Companies are enjoying handsome profits and the breathing room, for the first time in years, topursue new projects aggressively. But the bitter past of layoffs haunts the industry's thriving present.As politicians warn of an approaching energy crisis, the oil industry is trying to avoid a severe shortage of itsown. From the Gulf of Mexico to Prudhoe Bay in Alaska, from large multinationals to small specialized offshoredrillers, oil companies are having trouble finding and holding on to the engineers and geologists who discover oiland the roughnecks on the rigs who pull it from the earth.A labor shortage means that companies may have to postpone efforts to find new oil and gas fields while theywait for skilled workers."If we don't do anything about this labor trend over the next 36 months, things could get critical," said JohnGibson, chief executive of Landmark Graphics, a unit of the Halliburton Company, the oil-field servicescompany in Dallas. Like Mr. Hadzeriga, many who left are staying away, and few new people are taking their places. Oilcompanies have had some success in attracting unskilled workers, but a hole is widening within the ranks of thepetroleum engineers, geophysicists and geologists who make the crucial and costly decisions about where todrill.That highly specialized population in the industry is aging. The average age of members of the AmericanAssociation of Petroleum Geologists, for example, is 49. In 1981, it was 41. Yet oil's long downturndiscouraged people now in their 20's and 30's from studying petroleum engineering and geology.Already, new oil and natural gas projects have been delayed because of a tight market for rigs and labor,industry analysts said. Oil companies say the problem is serious, though few will acknowledge that they havedifficulty themselves in attracting qualified workers, for fear of looking troubled to their competitors and WallStreet.Those willing to talk are trying to avert a crisis. Exxon Mobil is heavily recruiting engineers and geologists fromuniversities again. BP has developed an associate degree program with the University of Alaska to trainstudents to replace the blue- collar workers who will soon be retiring from fields in the Alaskan North Slope.And Global Marine Inc., the deepwater drilling outfit, is recruiting within the military for reliable workers."On the professional engineering side, there's a shortage industrywide," said Sheldon Erikson, chairman of theCooper Cameron Corporation, a $2 billion oil-field services company in Houston. "People are feeling itbecause business has picked up, especially in the offshore market. We're looking at a pretty empty barrel now."Twenty years ago, the oil industry promised good pay and bountiful work for young men and a smattering ofwomen who had a taste for science and adventure. Mr. Hadzeriga, the son of a chemical engineer, hadtraveled to three continents and studied five languages by the time he was 20. And he believed that a degree inpetroleum engineering might take him someday to places where he could use his Spanish, Arabic or Russian."I sold everything I owned, sold my car, said goodbye to everybody," he recalled of his departure for a job inAngola in 1983, just after he graduated from the Colorado School of Mines. "I was out to see the big hugeworld."At that time, the oil industry was flush with cash and convinced that oil prices would stay high for years. Butgrowing supplies and flat demand led to a depression in the industry that took hold in 1986 and only began tolift a year ago. According to the American Petroleum Institute, about 754,500 people worked in explorationand production, arguably the most crucial part of the oil industry, in 1982. As of last month, the number hadalmost halved, to 336,400. From 1997 to 1999, the oil and gas industry shed 60,000 exploration andproduction jobs, mainly because of low oil prices, said Ron Planting, an analyst at the Petroleum Institute.Some companies bucked the trend and held on to employees. Anadarko Petroleum, a $14 billion independentexploration and production company in Houston, resisted staff cutbacks, as did the Rowan Companies, amajor drilling contractor also in Houston. Global Marine chose salary cuts over layoffs. Because the companyretained younger workers, the average age of its work force is 36 the same as it was 10 years ago."Layoffs look good to shareholders at a particular time, but they harm long-term development," said Edward E.Thiele, chief financial officer at Rowan. "You train all these people and then you lay them off, and then you haveto train new people all over again."Most companies succumbed to the pressure to pare their work forces, but many layoff victims do not return.Companies often shed a greater proportion of older engineers and geologists through early retirement packagesand nurtured a younger, cheaper crop of professionals. Those people are now middle-aged, however, andmany have the savings to retire by 55. The "graying" of the oil industry has become so pronounced that in seven years, the sector could lose 40percent to 60 percent of its work force to retirement, according to an informal survey that Mr. Gibsonconducted 18 months ago of his firm's main clients, which include some of the country's biggest oil companies.Mr. Gibson said some companies were still debating how severe the labor drought might be and remainedconvinced that machines would fill the gap. New technology has clearly reduced the number of people requiredfor many jobs. Automated rig handling, for example, has cut the number of roughnecks needed to drill wells.Three-dimensional seismic studies of oil and gas reservoirs help the industry better identify the most promisingplaces to drill. Companies now drill fewer exploratory wells, which means that they need fewer people.But oil companies need geophysicists, geologists and petroleum engineers to use that technology and interpretits complex data. And there will be fewer of those people to go around."Oil and gas is first found in people's minds," said Harold M. Korell, chief executive of the SouthwesternEnergy Company, an independent natural gas exploration company in Houston. "You need the people to pull allthe data together and figure out where to drill. Five or 10 years from now, these 50-year-olds will be 60. Whowill replace them?"Sons of oilmen once followed their fathers into the field. But a whole generation came of age in the mid- 1980'sin places like Houston and Dallas and watched their fathers lose their jobs and their families lose their homes.Alumni of the Colorado School of Mines which along with Texas A&M and the University of Texas is a topschool for oil-industry engineers and scientists have told Ron Brummett, the director of the college's careercenter, that they advise their children to avoid the industry and to choose more stable work. When Mr. Gibsonrecently asked a room of 400 industry middle managers how many would encourage their children to enter theoil business, he said, about five people raised their hands.While the industry faltered in the 1990's, the rest of the American economy boomed. Young people were luredby new-economy promises of more relaxed places to work, high- technology equipment to play with, and thepotential to become instant millionaires at least on paper."Our industry has an image problem that comes from a lack of getting the message out," said R. D. Blue,manager for domestic recruiting and employment at Exxon Mobil. Many young people dismiss the oil businessas a low-tech part of the old economy, he said, but "nothing could be farther from the truth." In 1986, 102 students graduated from the Colorado School of Mines with bachelor's degrees in petroleumengineering; in 2001, there were 34. At the University of Texas, about 180 petroleum engineering studentsgraduated in 1982, compared with 34 this year. Ekwere J. Peters, the department chairman at Texas, estimatedthat a total of about 300 students nationwide graduated with bachelor of science degrees in the major last year.That, he added, would not be enough to meet demand in the oil labor market.The tight supply of engineers and so-called geoscientists has driven up starting salaries. According to Mr.Brummett at the Colorado School of Mines, the average starting salary this year for its graduates, at $48,402,is about 8.8 percent higher than last year. The average salary for a geologist with less than two years'experience is now $59,700, versus $48,400 five years ago, according to the American Association ofPetroleum Geologists. University officials and recent graduates say there is a bidding war for new recruits, withcompanies offering signing bonuses of $5,000 to $10,000.The overall economy has now slowed while the oil industry continues to flourish, and college enrollments inoil-related majors have increased slightly. But those who are attracted by the money now will need four yearsto graduate. After that, it may take up to 5 or 10 years for the geologists and engineers to amass the knowledgethey need to be of use to oil companies.And for some people, money is not the issue. For all the hard work that Janice Rego put into becoming apetroleum engineer, she is all but lost to the industry now. Raised in Dubai and witness to the wealth that oil cancreate, she took the bold step of leaving home to study at Texas A&M. After pulling all-nighters in thepetroleum lab and toughing out the grueling course work, she was convinced when she graduated in 1997 thatshe wanted to be an engineer.Ms. Rego returned home, eager to apply her knowledge. But after only a few days working as the only womanon an offshore platform, she left for a job onshore. Then, in 1998, the price of oil fell to less than $10 a barrel;with layoffs looming, she quit the industry entirely. She returned to the United States to get a master's degree inbusiness administration and is now a junior oil analyst at the New York offices of Dresdner KleinwortWasserstein, a European investment bank."I was the guinea pig, and I didn't want to go through that," Ms. Rego said, referring to her experience as awoman on an offshore rig. "Oil was all about learning and I didn't feel like I was learning that much." The labor market is squeezing the oil industry just as it faces enormous pressure to produce. The United Statesconsumes 25 percent of the world's energy, and despite the sluggish economy, demand for oil and natural gascontinues to grow. Oil and gas companies are increasing their exploration and production budgets. And theylook forward to President Bush's campaign to open federal lands to further production. But domesticproduction may not improve significantly, in part because of the dearth of workers.Oil-field service companies, which provide the equipment and services for drilling, are turning down workbecause of a lack of trained rig crews, industry executives and analysts said. The problems of these businesses,in turn, can delay the projects of the major oil companies. BJ Services, a $4.8 billion Houston company that pumps cement to shore up the walls of oil wells, has had toturn down work because of a shortage of workers. The company has recently been hiring 50 to 60 people amonth, but that still has not been enough to tackle all the available work, said Jeff Smith, director for businessdevelopment.At other oil-field service companies, the lost opportunities are more subtle, though still noticeable. CooperCameron makes undersea equipment needed in offshore drilling. Like its competitors, it faces a shortage ofengineers in some specialties. The experts in the field are retiring, and few have come along to replace them,said Mr. Erikson, Cooper Cameron's chairman."The number of projects you can do at any one time is limited," he said. "If we had more people, we would domore projects. There are large projects that are deepwater driven, so you have to be very selective about theprojects that you want to do. You just can't go after everything like you did in the early 80's." Companies are now looking for ways to attract people fast, and they have had some success at the rig level.The answer, in most cases, is money. Nabors Industries, one of the largest oil-field service companies, hasincreased entry-level pay from 1999 by almost 40 percent, to $16.38 an hour from $11.49.The lowest-salary employees at Global Marine are roustabouts, who get $30,000 a year, full benefits and abonus of 3 to 5 percent of their annual pay. But the company had trouble finding good people within the "shoreeconomy" to work on their offshore rigs. So over the last year, the company hired a former Marine captain torecruit among people preparing to leave the Marine Corps, Army airborne units, or the Navy's nuclearsubmarine fleet.Jon Marshall, chief operating officer of Global Marine, said people with military experience are sought outbecause they are accustomed to physical work and are often more mature and responsible than those comingout of the local "shore" economy.While the company is satisfied with the caliber of its new employees, it has had to increase its safety budget by26 percent, to about $14.5 million, because of the large number of inexperienced people on the rigs, Mr.Marshall said. Indeed, safety is probably the greatest concern on rigs as more new people come on board, industry executivessaid. The number of accidents has not climbed, but most companies are spending more to keep the platformssafe."The problem is that you have inefficient crews, maybe because you're shifting one or two members from anexisting crew onto a new one and the rest are green," said Wesley N. Maat, an oil industry analyst at DresdnerKleinwort Wasserstein. "These crews are like a seasoned baseball team, with their own rhythm, their ownkarma. They work well together, except this is a much more dangerous game."Because what's at risk is your fingers, your life, and hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment andinvestments. There's no way on this earth that you can replicate a rig hand with 15 years' experience, despite allthe technological advances in the industry." rc (07/01/01; 08:51:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 57280) @Perplexed - Your post 57273 Your quote : We did not need help from foreign work forces to prosper at the end of WWII.I am not that sure. Your Marshall plan was first and foremost in the US interest. It allowed the US to switch smoothly from a war economy to a peace economy. It was, mostly, equipment (car, heavy machinery and others goods) that should have been discarded if the Europeans would not need it because their economy was in ruin. I still believe that it helped the Europeans, albeit not that much as far as the French and the Britts are concerned, but may I remind you that the loans have been repaid back to the last cent, interest included.It is tantamount to buy brand new furniture while sending your old one (against payment + interest for sure) to your neighbour after you have broken everything in his house. As for : "If anyone out there is troubled by an over abondance of those worthless green backs, you can get my e-mail address from Randy and we will arrange shipment to my home." I would be happy to comply provided you send me back your gold that so many of you despise. If I was the Chinese, I could deplete your vaunted gold stock in 24 hours flat.Sorry Sir! I don't believe in the benevolence of the USA. goldenpeace (07/01/01; 07:35:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 57279) Peace on the Forum As we come to "the day of rest and reflection", may we give thanks that the forum is still in operation. To my mind it is the "One True" clearinghouse for understanding the "One True Storehouse" behind the "apparent" fabric of our economic lives.....to have the Forum expire due to semantics, disagreement, and personality differences, all of which obscure the deeper meaning of what we are attempting to understand and respond to here, would indeed be a great tragedy.Keep up the good work MK, TG, ORO, Randy, and all others of good intent.....remember the true meaning of all this is much deeper than the words...don't let simple words deter.PeaceBowingGoldenpeace Rockgrabber (07/01/01; 07:14:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57278) Mid-East ready to make the Fourth of July really explode!! http://www2.haaretz.co.il/breaking-news/intifada/368126.stm Hezbollah Guerillas are currently busy firing mortars at Israeli troops. Israel has been busy responding to the attacts this weekend as the article states. Saddam, and Osama Bin Laden are apparently up to alot right now as well. We have warned the Taliban over Bin Laden this week. As well as knowing that Saddam is building troops to invade the Kurds (He wants us to retaliate, in order for Russia and China to take a more harder stance against the sactions they dont want). SO long cease fire. Orville Goldenbacher (07/01/01; 06:46:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 57277) Masons/Secret Society/Conspiracy/Jeckyl Island 1910 This is a touchy subject, but one that should be addressed.Everybody is either a Mason, or has/had one for a family member. My beloved Grandfather was a 32nd degree Mason.The Mason's do much good. I was born with a club foot, the Mason's helped to pay my doctor/hospital bills until i was 18 years old. I walk/run just fine, thanks to Mason's.That is the Good Side, now let's explore the darker side. Let's see if "THEY" are part of the conpiracy to hold the price of Gold down and other dastardly deeds yet to come.Grandpa was a highly respected Dentist in the early 1900's, my Grandmother was a Lutheran who did not fully approve of my Grandfather's new "religion". They were good people.When my Grandfather passed away, my Grandmother had to find a Baptist preacher to do the "Christian" funeral because the Lutheran minister would not.Many Mason's are truly "ignorant". It is a secret society, thus, there are many secrets held from the lower member's. As they climb the ladder, more secrets are revealed. Only the 33rd degree Mason's know "all" the secrets. Obviously, being kept in the dark breeds ignorance.Many Masonic members are influenced by Power and Money, they help their own. Many doctor's, lawyer's, presidents, sheiks, judges, Bullion banker's, etc. are Mason's.In order to be a Mason, you must believe in a Supreme being, it could be Jesus, Allah, Buddah, Satan, Zeus, etc., doesn't really matter who, just must be Supreme.Any "Thoughts"? Maybe we can hear from some Mason's and get their point of veiw?Thanks,OGP.S. If it is not painfully obvious what the connections Mason's have to Gold, please stay tuned. More later.... Turnaround (07/01/01; 04:28:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 57276) internal dollar support mechanism On conspiracy- Conspiracies come in different flavors and types. The simplest is the true conspiracy: a group of men and/or women gathered together in secret to plan a coodinated course of action. Examples include a football huddle, planning a surprise birthday party, a military campaign or a bank robbery and of course the classic 1910 Jekyll Island resort meeting that hatched the Federal Reserve. But there are other kinds of conspiracy that may not usually be given that name. The Japanese planning of the attack on Pearl Harbor was a true conspiracy when viewed in isolation. The planners thought they were working in secrecy and so formulated and carried out their strategy accordingly. But in retrospect, what had seemed to them to be a perfectly executed surprise attack was in fact 'perfect' only because a second group of conspirators (the Roosevelt Administration), unknown to the Japanese group, had made it possible. This type of double-cross conspiracy is sometimes called a "sting" or a "set-up". The analogy with the suprise birthday party is when the person it is being thrown for finds out about it beforehand, and keeps quiet so as not to spoil the suprise. It would be very interesting to find out, if possible, what Yamamoto and his co-conspirators were thinking as they planned this attack. Did he really believe the five-digit code, now called JN25, was not breakable? Did he think the torpedo-bombing exercises went unnoticed, that an entire fleet could be assembled in Tokyo Bay and depart across the Pacific undetected? Was he watching the shifting of American personnel and materiel during 1941? Did they work through war game scenarios to see where the American provocations were leading? This should have tipped him off. If they did indeed know this was a set-up, they we have a very different game dynamic- an unspoken conspiracy, one in which the different participants intuitively understand they are working toward a common goal but do not communicate this with each other. A generalization of this is found in freeway traffic all traveling together over the speed limit. Each participant acts independently without formally contracting with the potential counterparties; the other drivers. This may explain in part why we use an unconstitutional, unlawful depreciating currency without giving it any thought- the other 'drivers' are doing the same and traffic appears to be flowing smoothly regardless. Most of us are getting where we want to go while the roadkill just gets ignored and squashed under the tires of the herd- I've got mine, Jack. If this theory is correct, then this would then be the primary internal dollar support mechanism. Netking (07/01/01; 03:26:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 57275) Silver miracle metal to get further boost from S & N http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/010509/westaim_smith_nephew_3.html With it's uses already in the 1,000's Ag(miracle metal) keeps impressing with what it can & will do next. Such as the soon to be mass produced silver bandages and band-aids by Smith & Nephew. . . and I don't think much of this new silver usage will be recyclable...it's coming folks, cause silver-coated bandages do work to keep bacteria clear from an open wound and speed up healing this after silver sulfadiazene creme(Silvadene) has been used for burns for many years with great success.-----------------------------------------------------------(quote)"The Acticoatฎ product is a nanocrystalline silver-based dressing used for the treatment and prevention of infection in burns. The product has had strong growth since its introduction in 1998 and has developed a significant reputation within burn hospitals in North America. It has demonstrated a wide antimicrobial spectrum and is effective against many different pathogens." (Disclosure:no shares held, but some silver) ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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