Home Gold Primer Q&A Daily Market Report Gold IRA Gold Coin Prices Charts Stats Essays Site Overview High Net Worth How to Buy Gold Live Gold Price Breaking Gold News Mobile Gold Price Gold Coin Images About Us-Contact Search Video Round Tables

Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

FORUM ARCHIVES

Select date of the archive you wish to view Month 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Day 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Year 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Archives date back to September 22, 1998

WELCOME TO THE ARCHIVES!

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 4/1/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Pandagold (04/01/01; 23:48:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 51220)
Goldfly and all

I am so sorry for you all that you have had to put up with this. I mean that most sincerely.

I will turn in my own code. I feel disgusted by the whole episode. What is more, I have waisted time and energy, as will many of you.

Goodbye to those who did get something positive from my posts, if it only made you think from a different perspective.

I am pleased that some posters have been moved to search deeper, so perhaps my time was not wasted too much.

elevator guy (04/01/01; 23:47:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 51219)
Pandagold and Christianity, +SLATT
I dont hink Panda goes out of his way to disparage Christians, although his comments sometimes veer towards the satirical.

Look at it this way, PG is insightful, satirical, critical, negative, humorous, observant, about a host of things.

By his own admission, he is not a Christian, so do you really expect someone on "the outside" of our faith to have anything really positive to say?

If we got mad at all the non-Christians who deride Christian beleifs, we would be mad all the time, because there an awful lot of them. What are we going to do? Get pissed off at the scorners? I don't think this works the righteousness of God, nor is it the will of our Saviour that we become defensive. Jesus can hold His own against the satirical jibes of Pandagold.

If you really belive in Jesus, you should know that His Holy Spirit is affecting the hearts of the scorners much more than those of nuetral opinion.

But getting back to it, Pandagold does not deride Christianity so much as he does some commonly held beleifs, that some Christians hold. It is a political discussion, not essentially a spiritual one. Just as there is room in Gods house for some Christians to be Republican, and it is ok for some to be Democrats, (though I pity them)(thats a joke, ok?) in like manner there are some beliefs, that although traditionally associated with Christianity, are not essentially Biblical. So if Pandagold is critical of some of our cherished beliefs, I do not view that as an attack on Christians, or Christianity.

Pandagold's remarks are very understandable for a man living in a post-Christian society. I think there are now more Mosques than churches now. I personally believe that Britains apostacy from fundamental Christianity is the cause for their demise as a dominant world power, but that is just my suspicion. Anyway, none of this comes as a surprise at all, considering the role of the Euro state in end times prophecy.

Panda's remarks are provocative, stimulating, and insightful, and to the point as relates the NWO, and the role of gold in the NWO. He sees through the fluff of a lot of the spin that comes out of the media machine, and I like that.

Lets not try to kick the non-Christains out of our little club. Remember that you once were not a Christain either, and only by the obedience and love of another of God's family, and the pre-venient grace of God, you were adopted in. So try to use a little of your considerable charisma that God gave you, and bring others in, too. I speak to anyone who will listen, and not to a specific person here.

I ask you, Pandagold, to stay, and continue to add to the disscussion. And in your quest for understanding, try to be tolerant of Christians, too.

Pandagold (04/01/01; 23:39:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 51218)
stock LIES and ticker tape

Only read your added post.

This is a load of crap and you know it. You were careful not to print the posts to which they refer. There was nothing offensive about Christianity, I was pointing out, as many, many Christians would, that to identify Christianity with gun worship seemed a little odd.

Your right to carry guns, or do anything else, which concerns all within a nation should stand on its own merits and not be justified by religion - any religion, as there are many religions out there and all do not think alike - not even within their own.

There was no evidence of Christianity 'bashing'. You are fluffing the issue - as always. Which comes as no surprise, it is only what I expected.



Goldfly (04/01/01; 23:34:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 51217)
Panda and SLATT
Especially SLATT

This is getting really really REALLY old. I'm amazed at least one of you haven't had your code yanked.

Panda if I were you, I would simply not respond. Maybe (if that were a little too much) you could post saying "I'm ignoring SLATT on Goldfly's advice, sorry for not adding any further episodes to this riviting adventure" or some such.

SLATT: Don't you have anything better to do?


tg (04/01/01; 23:34:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 51216)
stocks,lies, tt
Time to do the christian thing and turn the other cheek. I think your just looking for a fight.

Honi soit qui mal es pense

kosher (04/01/01; 23:30:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 51215)
+++++ $255.15 +++++
I want to continue to indulge myself and buy more.

kosher (04/01/01; 23:26:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 51214)
****** The New Fifth Horseman *****
****** The New Fifth Horseman *****

It will be the demise of US dollar as the world's reserve currency.
Let's see what happened in the first quarter of 2001. NASDAQ continued its collapse (-~30%), while the 'real economy' stocks came under pressure and e.g. DOW lost (-~10%). Yet, the almighty dollar gained ~3.5%. Insane but true. The dollar's gain was, almost exactly, Gold's loss (-3.4%). Gold will rule when the dollar is gone as a refuge in troubled times. Nothing will be able to save US dollar when the credit bubble burst.



Pandagold (04/01/01; 23:21:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 51213)
stocks LIES and tickertape
Your accusation and lie for all to read about me, was no joke, and neither was my reply.

Do not fluff, or skirt round the issue. I, as any knight would (going along with the accepted spirit) demand an apology.

You accused me of Christianity bashing. Those are strong words, from someone who picks up on such small irrelevant things when they have been contained in a very friendly, short, post edifying a fellow poster.

I await that apology on the issue stated. Once again, this is no joke - April, or otherwise.

Also, I have NEVER said there is nothing we can do about our future. That is NOT in my philosophy.

I am NOT buddhist, though would respect the choice of those who are, as I would with ANY religion.

Positive thinking does not allow you to walk through a brick wall, or, has everyone who has tried it have found, stop TPTB, over the many centuries they have operated.

You may try, as Reg Howe did, if you have your years to waste. I prefer to use the opposing force (against them) to gain benefit, and that has ALWAYS been my message in my posts, which you have never read for their positive content but only to choose something upon which to attack me. Once or twice, I can take, but it had become a habit ( a bad one) with you.

This time, you went too far. Stirring up emotion in others by LIES cannot be permitted.

If I had said nothing, new posters would have believed them.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (04/01/01; 23:13:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 51212)
must have hit a premature button, sorry! References from March 2001.
The following are from your posts in March. As I do not wish to peck at this keyboard to the wee hours, as I do not wish to be accused of taking your statements out of context, I will give the post #.

#49314 "If you are Christian, though the little babe was Jewish-...." True enough. Yet there is no real basis to use that sentence for your post. Was it added to merely push buttons?

#49463 "Another influence is that most have an inability to free their minds from the constraints put there from birth by 'well-meaning' parents...." I do not know how it is in the UK, but in the US this is a common argument used to deride Christian beliefs and practices.

"I honestly believe that those who can free their minds--open them fully, remove all indoctrination from false beliefs, take a good look at the history of man--...." This is also used in the US as code, if you will, for dismissing the concerns of Christians.

#50728 "I never saw no painting of Christ with a sword strapped to His belt." All of your posts are articulate, yet you use the double negative in this response. In the US it is a frequent practice to demean Christians as being uneducated by virtue of their beliefs, and nothing else. I light of your otherwise impeccable use of the English language (I know how could you not!) this stood out to me. Perhaps no one else viewed it that way, realize that this is my perception and is used in forming my opinion.

"Well America was the first and only country to use them- those that live by atomic weapons shall die......" IMHO you are mocking a Christian belief.

#50716 "Christianity and only guns have made you free, and can keep you free? What would Christ have thought about that? (I am not a Christian but have studied theology.)" IMHO the posters were referring to the exercise of the right to freedom of religion and their right to keep and bear arms as essential expressions of a free people. Your questioning Christ's take on your assertion, coupled with your having "studied theology" I have taken as your attempt to straighten out the misinformed Christians. This is a most common practice in the US news media.

#50774 "THOSE WHO HAVE THE (MOST)GOLD MAKE THE RULES

THAT IS THE GOLDEN RULE OF ALL RULES IT IS BEHIND EVERYTHING,IT CONTROLS EVERY FACET OF YOUR LIFE" Christian faith is not predicated on an amount of gold. I find the usage of "GOLDEN RULE" to be a pun in bad taste (even when posted on a Gold Forum).

#50756 Re: a golden gun, "What a wonderful Christmas present they would make for your wife and kids. It would also please Christ (according to most of you) on His birthday- gold, and a gun. I am sure from what I have read he would sell more gold that way than with coins." This is a blatant smear against Christians wishing to exercise their 2nd Amendment right. IMHO it is in bad taste and uncalled for.

"You Christians, serve your Lord, do as the bible says- get a gun, not any gun, but an MK Golden Gun".(I like the ring)" This is outrageous and offensive. It was uncalled for, you knew what the response would be to that post.


I realize that words on a page do not convey the depth of nuance as one receives in a phone call or in person. These passages are what I based my assertion upon. I find this trend for the month of March alone too compelling to chalk up to British humor. IMHO these passages convey a disdain for Christians and their beliefs. I realize not all Christians are of the same mind regarding all issues. I just find it in bad taste to mock people for their religious beliefs. Again, this is my opinion from what I have read from your posts.

***********************************************************

If the bashing of Christianity is not an agenda that resides in your heart, then I offer my most sincere apology.

************************************************************




SHIFTY (04/01/01; 23:03:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 51211)
Curious
http://mars-earth.com/sitchin.htm
Zecharia Sitchin The 12th Planet

You were close.

$hifty

Curious (04/01/01; 22:17:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 51210)
***************THE NEW FIFTH HORSEMAN *****************************
The new fifth horseman is the 10th planet NIBIRU as explained by Jeramiah Stichin that is in orbit around our Sun and will come closer to the earth sometime between now and the year 2012. The gravitational attraction will cause the pole shift predicted by Edgar Cayce. This time also coincides with the end of the Mayan Calendar. The Hopi Indian prophesies also predict a major event is coming soon. Nostramadus also predicted a Terror from the sky. Other Seers predict massive changes in the earth during the next few years including a substantial increase in the width of the Mississippi River, the disappearance of much of California and other catastropic events as noted on the various earth changes maps.

There is speculation that the aliens even created the religions on Earth since there are amazing similiarities between all of the major religions. This was an effort to control the people so that they would mine the gold that they needed. Gold has been the standard of value for at least 6000 years and maybe longer. If the 10th planet comes by every 3600 years, the aliens could well have convinced the people of the value of gold during a previous visit 7200 years ago so that it would be mined and available when they came by again. Otherwise there is no good reason why anyone would want thousands of tons of gold so it could sit in the vault doing nothing except to serve as a theoritical backing for a paper money system.

When the 10th planet gets closer, the aliens will land to pick up the gold. The secret societies such as the Masons and others, the New World Order, and the Illuminati are either heavily influenced by the aliens or are descendants of the aliens. They want to be able to trade the huge quanities of gold for privileges and possible ascention to the 10 planet and an extended healthy life off of this planet Earth. People with no gold will have no bargaining position and will be left behind on a planet with severe distruction caused by the pole shift or they will be enslaved. The stock market will have crashed, the economy will have been destroyed and millions of people will be starving with inadequate food and water. Energy supplies will be restricted and the infastructure will collapse during if not before the pole shift.

There is a theory that Aliens created the human race here or that the human race is a hybrid of earlier life forms and alien genes. There is no real evidence of a progression from earlier forms to man that suddenly appeared. The Central Bankers know about this from the elite 12 families or the 300 families that control the majority of the wealth of the planet. They have sufficient wealth to cause the rises in the stock market, to sell at the top, and to cause severe declines in the market, so they can buy at the bottom and use these swings to add to their wealth. In this manner, they can accumulate more gold to trade to the aliens.

If all of the Black (hidden) gold does actually exist, these elite super rich people would want to control this gold too and they will try to suppress the knowledge of this gold so that the value of their existing gold does not collapse. With all of these horsemen and potential catastrophies, we will have our hands full trying to survive.

SHIFTY (04/01/01; 21:37:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 51209)
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Periodic Ponzi Update PPU

Nasdaq 1,840.26 + Dow 9878.78 = 11,719.04 divide by 2 = 5859.52 Ponzi

Up 142.79 from last week.

I thank you Sir RossL for the link.


$hifty

IronHead (04/01/01; 21:37:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 51208)
+++++++$251.725 US.+++++++
Realize they boyz don't trade incrememts of cents; just putting the cap on a possible tie. Primary reason for above no. is I'm trying to fill a fifty tube of 1/10th ozers and would very much like a mini-phily to add to the tweagles and leafs, maple that is.

Rudimentary reasoning aside; support will be taken out big-time as the boyz have mega nanos to accomplish the task of bilking any latent paper bulls that think "It can't go any lower!" With the whipsawed erstwhile bouncing around like a ping pong ball in a windtunnel, the boyz will snap trap em into a mini short cut to the lu lu bin. Sayonara paper pontifs!!

R Powell (04/01/01; 21:34:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 51207)
Company items needed
for the Stealin Gold from Stagecoaches Ltd.
Soloman, I'll add your items to the list.
faster horses
more money
older whiskey
younger women
better olive pits
and more links
I wholeheartedly agree.
Rich


Solomon Weaver (04/01/01; 20:57:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 51206)
Olive Pits...Basmati Rice....Banana Peels
Yo Randy

(3/31/2001; 17:57:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 51150)

I cannot take credit for identifying Basmati rice as "semi-numismatic".....

But perhaps you remember how long ago on this forum, I claimed that "but for convention, gold would be worth no more than banana peels".

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Many new names here since I used to post......

I have been very busy, working in the field of genetic technologies. It is an area which is moving fast forward, like computers did in the late 80s early 90s. It is one more stone in the phenomenal divide between the people of the techno world and the people of the land.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I actually locked up a little more of my net worth into physical gold and silver than I "should have"......I am not yet in a liquidity crisis...but my wife and children and I are forgoing some vacation this year to "save"...while the metal sits quietly......I just don't have the heart to sell....I am so convinced that we will all be vindicated....but when..when....when.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

In reading through lately, it seems like our esteemed posters are not posting as many links...perhaps just the days I visited.

Poor old Solomon


Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (04/01/01; 20:46:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 51205)
If this is an April Fools joke, then I admit to being had!
Bear in mind you have taken the liberty to set the terms for this challenge. Certainly you have not been so strident as to place a post bashing Christianity outright. It is the sum total of your statements invoking Christianity, your attitude (IMHO) towards the faithful, and your insistence that there is nothing which one can do in this life but accept a predetermined fate, which lead me to make the assertion. This is my opinion. I speak for no one else.

The examples that follow are from the last month alone.

The Hoople (04/01/01; 20:27:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 51204)
+++++ $262.70 +++++
Cabal power rules a bit longer. COMEX beats down overnight rallies as if on cue. But when it gets away from them oh, what a sight to behold. Worth the price of admission. And gold is the ticket.

ROSEBUD99 (04/01/01; 20:26:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 51203)
****** The New Fifth Horseman *****
I have been lurking for about a year and hardly ever miss a day reading the thoughts of all these great knights. I wish to thank MK for this wonderful site and humbly wish to submit my idea for the 5th horseman.

The 5th horseman has been with us all along. He has been responsible either directly or indirectly for bringing forth the other horseman. He is the general of the horseman, always having remained in the background except for small periods in the past. Now he has galloped to the forefront to take charge of the battle at this most critical time. Indeed, most think of him as a white knight instead of a rogue Horseman. Just look at his recent past actions.

He rescued Asia when the contagion Horseman threatened to engulf the world. He calmed the US when fears were heightening from the Y2K Horseman. He told us that energy was not as important in the "New Era" as the Oil Horseman rode from the east, tripling prices as he went. He has talked the Dollar up through his underling Dept. of Treasure as the Euro Horseman was born and tried to find its legs. He has made it clear that productivity is the driving force behind the economy and continues unabated to this day. He has also dropped interest rates in his support of the markets when The Stock Market Meltdown Horseman was slashing and pillaging the countryside.

He is the "FED". The most diabolical of the entire Horseman. Why?? Because all direct challenges have been soundly defeated. Only through his actions will the true nature of this beast be revealed. Much like the stock market bull was defeated not by an event, but just by the simple laws of math. Only in this way will the dark Horseman side of the FED be shown for all to see. Even now he works feverishly pumping money into the system and lowering rates. One day in the future people all over the world will decide that maybe they have to many dollars. That maybe the dollar is not worth what it says its worth. Then that change at the edge will start to grow, soon to become a flood of dollars being changed for……for….GOLD.
So it will not be an event that triggers this flood. For all "Events" end. It must be a change in perceptions, much like the drops of rain that are at the beginning of every flood. For each time the FED Horseman succeeds, he actually fails, bringing on the true nature of the beast.


Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (04/01/01; 20:24:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 51202)
Challenge accepted.
.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (04/01/01; 20:15:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 51201)
Gandalf the White
Spent all day in the woods searching out new areas. Have three pounds to show for it. One area really looks promising. Good to have the extra hour of daylight to work with. They are smaller this year and thus harder to find. Let me know how you do!

Peter Asher (04/01/01; 20:02:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 51200)
Bubble data

Excerpt from an e-mail from a semi-retired Real Estate agent.

>>>>>the real estate market has slowed down considerably as you can well imagine.
The rental market is at a stand still here in the Hamptons. Everyone awaits the
bottom and a case of dire need, signals that the wise owner will not emit.<<<<<



Horatio (04/01/01; 19:34:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 51199)
The Cabel Take a look at this
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~netking/finan.htm#tquotns

Tree in the Forest (04/01/01; 18:38:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 51198)
dragonfly
Very interesting. There was a book written by Murry Hope with a title something like "Atlantis: Myth or Reality?" also citing Plato's report of Solon's conversation in Egypt. A little off topic since she did not reference gold at all but apparently we have lost much of our history and archeologists are loathe to risk their professional reputation investigating these topics. Too bad.

auspec (04/01/01; 18:28:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 51197)
TIF----------- CLEAR
Worthy of a Repost
"It is also possible that if one could wave a magic wand and make the cabal disappear, 60% or 70% of current world wide conflicts would either disappear or be significantly attenuated." END

Bingo Brother!

Tree in the Forest (04/01/01; 18:18:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 51196)
Auspec
I agree with you Auspec. I do not refer to any particular group as being exclusive to the power elite and I have found nothing on David Guyatts site that would indicate that. What I was trying to do, was to acquaint our new poster as politely as possible with the conclusion that I think most of us here have come to, namely that there exists a nefarious power elite whose goal appears to be divide and conquer. The fact is that Jews and Arabs have a long history of peaceful co-existence and I find that the sudden appearance of enmity is suspect especially in view of the fact that there resides vast oil deposits in the region in question. Keeping this area unstable may be to the cabal's advantage. And of course oil and gold are very much linked as we have seen (though there are apparently at least a few dissenters even on this topic!) To further elaborate, it would appear that the Balkans have been a very convenient flashpoint for "them" and they have apparently used it to trigger WWI, WWII and are possibly using it again to help trigger WWIII. The enmity here may have been planted centuries ago but "they" continue to fan it at every opportunity. It is also possible that if one could wave a magic wand and make the cabal disappear, 60% or 70% of current world wide conflicts would either disappear or be significantly attenuated. I also believe that the "protests" in Florida over the last US presidential election were set up, rigged, FAKE! There is evidence many so called "spontaneous" demonstrations are planned. The WTO demonstrations in Seattle too. If this is true, then we should NOT go along with this baloney and get swept up ourselves into these fake confrontations. We should stand above these rigged quarrels. Otherwise we play into "their" hands. This is what I am trying to say. Clear?

dragonfly (04/01/01; 18:11:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 51195)
IronHead

Thank you kind sir for your salutation and thoughtful comments. The credit for the tenth planet idea goes to a writer named Zecharia Sitchin and is elaborated in a paperback series called the Earth Chronicles. I have full responsibility for the part about elites using their stash as a sort of 'Golden Parachute'. My hobby is studying writings on geological catastrophes and I have always been fascinated by the story in Plato's Critias Dialogue of how the Egyptian priests told Solon that the Greeks were like children because they only had memory of a thousand years of history. The priests claimed to be in possession of knowledge of 10 thousand years of history. Trying to integrate knowledge from many fields of thought is very stimulating and has led me to suspect that mankind's love affair with Gold has deeper roots than generally acknowledged. The following is a short excerpt from a book by Zecharia Sitchin called 'Genesis Revisited'.
-----------------------------------------------------------

GOLD MINING - HOW LONG AGO?

Is there evidence that mining took place, in southern Africa, during the Old Stone Age? Archeological studies indicate that it was indeed so.

Realizing that sites of abandoned ancient mines may indicate where gold could be found, South Africa's leading mining corporation, the Anglo-American Corporation, in the 1970s engaged archeologists to look for such ancient mines. Published reports (in the corporation's journal Optima) detail the discovery in Swaziland and other sites in South Africa of extensive mining areas with shafts to depths of 50 feet. Stone objects and charcoal remains established dates of 35,000 & 46,000 & 60,000 B.C. for these sites. The archeologists and anthropologists who joined in dating the finds believed that mining technology was used in southern Africa "during much of the period subsequent to 100,000 B.C."

In September 1988, a team of international physicists came to South Africa to verify the age of human habitats in Swaziland and Zululand. The most modern techniques indicated an age of 80,000 to 115,000 years.

Regarding the most ancient gold mines of Monotapa in southern Zimbabwe, Zulu legends hold that they were worked by "artificially produced flesh and blood slaves created by the First People." These slaves, the Zulu legends recount, "went into battle with the Ape-Man" when "the great war star appeared in the sky" (see Indaba My Children, by the Zulu medicine man Credo Vusamazulu Mutwa).

-----------------------------------------------------------

Respectfully yours,
dragonfly

auspec (04/01/01; 16:56:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 51194)
Distinctions
Tree in the Forest
I think we have to be very careful here when someone accuses the Power Elite of possibly being of any particular ethnic background or race {I don't think YOU were, Tree}. What does one mean when they refer to a government or person as being a Zionist?? If it means that Israel has a right to exist peacefully in its tiny remnant of land, then there are many fair minded "Zionists".
The material by David Guyatt that I referred you to yesterday contains nothing that equates the Power Elite" as equating with the nation of Israel. There is indeed much strife in the MiddleEast, and none of us are going to solve that problem. I really don't care to discuss this issue beyond pointing out that the PE and "Zionists", to my way of thinking, are NOT one and the same.

Tree in the Forest (04/01/01; 16:17:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 51193)
US_Army (RET)
Sir, I would like to suggest that you read my post #51143 from yesterday. It would appear that the "power elite" referred to in that post has the ability and desire to foment discord on a world wide basis and may have in fact done so repeatedly for at least the last 100 years. World Wars I and II, Vietnam, the Balkans, the mideast, the Spratly's and elsewhere; wherever there is unrest there you will find them and their hired rabble rousers like the devil himself. As a soldier, it is probably upsetting to hear that many of the wars fought in the 20th century were at their behest but that may in fact be the case. These "fights" appear to be planned and augmented with the media who is at their beck and call. Recall General Eisenhower's warning to "beware the Industrial-Military complex". The "power elite" benefits from these wars. And when we play into their hands, we help them. The mideast conflicts of the last 50 years are only one of their little games. A rather deadly game I would say but of great benefit to them. IMHO it therefore behooves us to avoid going along with their propaganda. Thank you for listening.

Tree in the Forest (04/01/01; 15:49:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 51192)
Mr. Gresham, R Powell
Very interesting quote. But I had thought that GSEs were backed by the full faith and credit of the US government (please...no snickering) or is that only when owned by Freddie or Fannie? It seems to me that the secondary mortgage market would require that this guarantee extend beyond Freddie and Fannie and that might encourage foreign ownership. This would be a good deal for the US. If these were the worst debt, let's say for the sake of argument that the default rate ran 20% when thing get bad. The US would still have an 80% mitigation of debt as the non-defaulting owners paid off and the US had to cough up only 20%. This might explain the foreign willingness to go along with this. Mortgage administration is taken care of locally so noone would even know that their payments were going to Japan or wherever. Comments?

Pandagold (4/1/2001; 15:00:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 51191)
auspec The contest (challenge)
auspec: I can only assume that your post referred to SLATT and I. I also assume it was impartial as there was nothing (no subtle, or not so subtle, cynicism) to indicate otherwise.

As I stressed, it is my wish to depart from the forum as I find it too time consuming, and I am out of tune with most posters here, although, having said that, I have detected a growing awareness to the areas I have tended to direct my points of view.

This time, I promise, I will NOT weaken when I say the following:-


A false accusation was made against me, I have asked that poster to support his accusation by fact (specifics as he seems to harp about).


I said that if he is right, and I am wrong, I will apologise to all and depart.


I now say that once he brings forth the evidence of his accusation, or failing that he himself apologises, I will leave anyway.


This to me seems a fair offer from one knight to another - a sort of throwing down the gauntlet, to settle this business once and forever.

I have been invited to contribute to two other websites from those who only know me from postings made on this and one other site. So, obviously there are people out there who do have open minds, and who don't mind their meat not wrapped up in meaningless, overworked, pleasantries.

That is the sort of thing that sickens people from listening to British parliamentary debate.

But, I feel that my time is better used in a more (financially) productive way. Much is happening in the undercurrents of the gold business. There is money to be made now which this 'tid for tat' bickering, or getting bogged down with focusing on 'details' distracts from.

I await my adversary to accept the challenge.

US_Army(RET) (4/1/2001; 14:37:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 51190)
****** The New Fifth Horseman *****
http://nigelparry.com/diary/
Ok, am intrigued by the "New Fifth Horseman" entry idea…and am ready to send forth a "tentative" first entry to this thoughtful forum.

I certainly have no doubt about who or what the "fifth horseman" is. Nor do many of the "clear thinking" individuals around me. There is only one existing entity with the power, force, influence and will to drag us all into the final stage of Armageddon. Of course at this point, no amount of "wealth" of any kind, be it gold or otherwise, will serve as even the slightest comfort for most. But, enroute to the final stages of bringing about world destruction, will trigger many of the events repeatedly forecasted in this forum. Especially a dramatic and near term fantasic increase in demand of the ultimate form of wealth, esp. win a crisis...Gold.

There is no question this nomination will be adamantly rejected by many…but "the truth is out there…"

No other group or nation since the days of the Nazi has gotten away with the murder and mayhem this "horseman" has. Vast control over the media and politicians of the "West" has allowed it to escape with repeated acts of appalling inhumanity.

Its actions (crimes?) include:

1. Wholesale displacement of indigenous populations.
2. Creation and maintenance of the largest concentration and slave labor camps the world has ever seen.
3. Repeated acts of massacres and murder of significant numbers of men women and children.
4. Antagonizing prideful neighboring nations into one-sided slaughters and then claiming to be the victim.
5. Completely ignoring the lawful, moral and unanimous past U.N. resolutions.
6. Totally undermining the moral makeup of the world's remaining superpower by near total control of its political system and media.

There is a natural law of "compensation"…and we all will reap the rewards of such actions for good or ill.

I submit this posting fully expecting to be labeled with the usual "anti-somethingorother" label…which is the normal tactic of all those supporting this horseman …but no other "horseman" I have seen mentioned so far comes close to the significance and most likely near term probable cause of worldwide disaster both in financial and human terms. We are literally hanging on the edge of a major conflagration and we are being rushed over the abyss by this immoral and unthinking force. This malignant entity is… of course, the Zionist Government of Israel.

Respectfully…


IronHead (4/1/2001; 13:53:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 51189)
Dragonfly - Cosmic Conundrum RE: your #51180
Sir Dragonfly - Really fun new perspective to Au; hope you don't take offense at my asking if this has been channeled by you pesonally, or was it of another's wavelength? And how might this be factored in with the Miyan calandar date of 2012 and the golden sun. Any biblical connection, as the Bible has some interesting quotes regarding gold, in Revelations, I believe? (Won't even touch Nostradamus and his prophecy for the New City - hey, maybe that's what Black Blade is leading up to regarding the Northeast?)

Interesting "out of this world" analysis, which might be exactly what Sir Pandagold has been alluding to all along. The Powers are Sumarien progeny?

Salutations {earthlings}
IronHead

auspec (4/1/2001; 13:44:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 51188)
Another Contest
Gentlemen
Out of the small print in Forum guidelines, an impartial observer is allowed to call for a duel when 2 posters reach a total impass. Let the games begin........

Randy (@ The Tower) (4/1/2001; 12:17:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 51187)
Time is running low on your opportunity to EARN gold and silver, courtesy of the fine folks over at Centennial...
USAGOLD (03/29/01; 11:53:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 51003)

The New Fifth Horseman: A CALL TO CONTEST. . . .A CALL TO CONTEST
Knights and Ladies of this Table -- one and all. . . . . .

A posting contest of erudition, fact and fancy is in order. One demanding of your greatest posting skills. . . .

We have come a long way on this journey of knowledge and understanding and these contests have contributed mightily toward this end. But no contest has carried the long lasting benefits and continuous interest like the Fifth Horseman competition (April, 1999) which I believe produced some of the best posts ever published at this site. In that competition, we found Rising Oil camped with the other four over that distant hill beyond these castle walls. We knew that hoary visage would wreak havoc. Now, as you know, this Fifth Horseman has torched many a village along the way (Rising from $10 to $30) and driven prices higher everywhere we look. . .and his deadly work is not done yet.

This Horseman, Rising Oil, remains conjoined with Three others, who,though resting quietly near the fire still theaten nevertheless, poised and ready to wreak havoc at the slightest provocation:

The Asian Contagion (now gone international, i.e. Turkey, Argentina, Brazil, et al)

Euro Introduction (We'll add the Strike Force to the currency)

The Stock Market Meltdown (In progress. . .)

But what is this . . .

In a cloud of dust One of the Five now gallops away n'er to be seen again. . . .Y2K -- having done its deadly damage and contributed mightily to the gold demand -- has vanished in the night.

And brings us to what this contest is all about. . . .


We must now once again name a Fifth to replace the One who has slinked away. Undoubtedly there are many candidates to fill this evil role. . . .

Remember: The Horsemen are not what drives Price but what will drive Demand for Gold in the future. . . .Gold, the Protector, the Vessel of our Wealth, the one addition to our portfolios that will be there should any of these Horseman gain the Day. . . . ..........So keep gold Demand in mind when you write your contest entry.

So that is the Contest to be weighed over the course of the next Five days. Who is this Fifth Horseman who can now be seen galloping into the Horsemen's camp over yonder hill -- this Fifth Threat?? And what is the nature of the treat he represents?

The Castle Treasury has authorized issuance of one German 20 Mark gold coin to the winner and one U.S. Silver Eagle each to two runners-up. All entries must be made by Monday, April 2, 2001, 5pm in the Mountains (U.S.)

All Contest posts must be 30 words or more. . .

All Contest posts must be marked as follows:

****** The New Fifth Horseman ***** (Surrounded by stars)

--------------

Along with the Fifth Horseman competition, we will have a price guessing contest on the price of gold on the close for the June contract on Friday April, 6th. The gold will be awarded to the individual who comes closest to that closing price. The Castle Treasury has authorized a one-tenth ounce Austrian Philharmonic as the prize. All entries must be made by Monday April 2, 2001, 5pm in the Mountains (U.S.). The post must also indicate in 30 words or Less why you think it will be so. Keep in mind, the contest is on the June contract, not April.

All contest entries must be marked with

+++++ (Price Guess) +++++ (Surrounded by plus signs)

----------------

Also. . .All first time posters will be awarded one U.S. Silver Eagle for breaking the ice. The post however must be a Fifth Horseman entry. Price Guess posts will not count but you may enter that contest also. To win the prize, you must e-mail jill@usagold.com that this is your first post. We will check each claim, so don't try to get one by us.

----------------

We would like to greatly encourage our international lurkers and posters to participate -- and we know there are a great many. We now have an international look and we would like to extend our hand across the waters and welcome all. We do not expect perfect English. . . .only well-honed logic.

So good luck, my friends.

And. . . . .

Let the contest continue.

Pandagold (4/1/2001; 12:13:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 51186)
Mr Gresham
That is exactly the point I am making, please abide by it.

I have been accused of something by this poster, I have challenged him to support his accusation. He made the accusation, I did not.

As you state yourself, there are others that attend this forum - that are outside your friendly society. They appear to get something from them.

If you care to check bck on my posts, I say many times you can accept or not accept - your words also, so what is your beef?

You don't lie and accuse another poster of something and expect not to be challenged.

I don't give a shute whether you believe what I say, it puts no money in my bank account, but don't accuse me of saying something I haven't.

Is that specific and in plain English enough for you.

R Powell (4/1/2001; 12:03:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 51185)
Mr.Gresham's 51167
Who needs debt to create money?

Incredible! Perhaps not real sound financial planing but he gets an A for creativity. Now, do you suppose he's trying to figure out how inject more fiat into the system based on the mortgage savings from refinancing at lower rates coming due in the near future. How can we spend NOW the percieved savings from the next five years?
Don't worry. I'm sure there's a way. I'm working on spending my birthday present money from my next life. I'm also going to sell derivatives on how much that will be.
Let's see, if I'm reincarnated as a member of the wealthy ruling class...
Rich

Mr Gresham (4/1/2001; 11:44:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 51184)
Pandagold
One person, for the positive or the negative, does not a forum make. We read what we choose to read. (It is not a lecture hall where someone can jump up to interrupt the speaker.)

Diluting your efforts by dealing with one individual is not consistent with the wisdom you share by those efforts. I encourage you to remember the other readers, and focus on the -- as HBM so wisely put it -- "edification" of the whole group.

And that's all that one individual, supportive as he wishes to be, can say.

Pandagold (4/1/2001; 11:31:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 51183)
Fed Chairmen

I too have a feeling that, of the Fed Chairmen with which I am familiar, that Volkner, especially for a man in that office of what his held by many to be a vile den of financial iniquitiy, was a man of honour. I was sorry to see him go.

My feelings about him are only based on intuition - what comes across from things he has said and also any pictorial representation of the man. Often character shows in the face and body language.

I feel he was changed not because he was incapable of doing the job, but because he could not go along with some of the practices that have been required of the present chairman by his 'masters'.

As I have said, it is just intuition, but it rarely lets me down.



R Powell (4/1/2001; 11:18:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 51182)
**********The New Fifth Horseman************
Loss of confidence

Our new horseman will be a loss of confidence. Specifically, a loss of confidence in paper monetary holdings. The Nasdaq technology bubble has burst resulting in investment shifts into the "old" economy Dow market. When the as yet unburst corporate and individual debt bubble begins to fail, as it can only be sustained in an irrationally exuberant economic expansion, then the Dow also will start to loss value. The last refuge for paper investment is the Bond market.
If the economy is to survive, the dollar will be sacrificed, as the economic cure of massive paper liquidity and lower Fed. fund rates is poison to the strong dollar. With the dollar's demise, the last of the paper assets (bonds) fails to hold value and the rush (panic) into tangible assets will begin. Undoubtedly, some young investment manager somewhere will announce that he/she has "discovered" a new and safe investment opportunity for these uncertain times- gold!
From Jake Bernstein's "Beat the Millennium Crash",
"However, as long as you keep in mind the fact that metals are responsive to extremes in emotion, and extremes in emotion are a function of market conditions, you will do well. When emotions and markets appear to be out of control, and traders and investors are in a frenzy, precious metals become the preferred investments."
Jake's words are simple and straightforward. While not speculating on the complex, almost incomprehensible economic subleties of our global financial world, Jake relies on human psychology. The emotions of fear, confusion, anxiety, or bewilderment that will infect the unsuspecting investment world, will result in a loss of confidence and precipitate a demand for an intangible store of value, one that is impervious to any and all financial upheavels. One that will even provide handsome profits in times of distress. Our candidate for such a job- Gold.

aunuggets (4/1/2001; 11:05:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 51181)
Pandagold - RE: your post 51172
No doubt your thoughts are VERY MUCH in line with reality here.

After all, what better method of "acquiring" than to create artificially low valuations by "inducing" the masses to believe gold is an "unwanted" or "unattractive" commodity ? The lower THE price, the more THEY are accumulating at very attractive levels.

Those of us on the "outside" with the insight, knowledge, and OPPORTUNITY to do what "big money" is doing at the same time on the "inside" should consider your words more attentively.

Thank you Sir !

dragonfly (4/1/2001; 10:29:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 51180)
***** The New Fifth Horseman *****

There is ONE known of OLD whose HUNGER for GOLD is a matter of SURVIVAL. This ONE - called NIBIRU by the Sumerians - is the tenth planet of our solar system with an elliptical orbit of 3600 years. The ANNUNAKI who inhabit it require GOLD for ATMOSPHERIC SHIELDING and have been acquiring such here on Earth for at least 450,000 years. "Black Gold" has nothing on these GUYS and GALS who like to ACCUMULATE AU in prodigious quantities with the help of their genetically tweaked human helpmates. Their return is imminent (years) and I suspect that some among the "strong hands" understand well the benefit of storehousing AU in anticipation of their arrival. The secular apostates in central banking have obviously forgotten their history and may pay dearly for their leasing sins and any related dispersal of AU to the unwashed masses. Since the electromagnetic forces of NIBIRU passing between Earth and Mars are so great, recurring catastrophe has been our fate thus far, with the subsequent revival of the arts of civilization in the hands of our "gods and goddesses" of the tenth planet. The FIFTH HORSEMAN is PROPITIATION this time around. Those who can mobilize the resources necessary to get OFF PLANET with ALOT OF GOLD will be in a COSMIC SWEET SPOT when the global disasters occur. Talk about a technological expression of faith and worship - sitting out there in geosynchronous orbit with the radio transmitting the atomic number of AU in all directions. "Welcome to Heaven faithful Earthlings, what is that in your suitcases?" So, for the rest of us with "small footprints", the FIFTH HORSEMAN may be of benefit if we survive massive earth cataclysms and happen to have the good fortune to parlay our small holdings into a fiefdom of ANNUNAKI-directed reconstruction. They seem to have a pro-slavery proclivity though and many of us small holders may choose to bargain in a different fashion to keep the spirit of independence and integrity alive.

In the immortal words of Stan Lee --- "Nuff Said".

Submitted with a smile.

dragonfly

SteveH (4/1/2001; 9:58:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 51179)
Kudlow
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/2001q2/2001_04/1010401.014039.damien666.htm
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/2001q2/2001_04/1010401.014051.damien666.htm

snippet from part II:

Kudlow: No, I don't. It was like somebody flipped a switch. The fact that the Fed has 500 Ph.D. economists, the vast majority of them from universities in the northeast, especially the Ivy League, doesn't help. Greenspan started playing down the role of money in inflation, which is the key. And we started getting all this fine-tuning nonsense: unemployment is this, wages are that, retail sales are this. Inflation is a monetary problem. If there is too much money out there, you'll know it. Because the gold price will go up $100, or the bond rate will go up 100 basis points. It has nothing to do with retail sales. But Greenspan obscured all that. His relapse means we have made no progress on the science of central banking.

later...

Kudlow: You know, in his own clumsy way Paul Volcker may be the best Fed chairman in history. He's an odd character--by no means a supply-sider. By and large he didn't like Reagan's tax cuts. But he took the inflation rate from fifteen and brought it down to two, roughly between 1980 and 1986. You have to say that was the most extraordinary achievement in the Fed's history. Alan took the inflation rate from four or five to two. That is a fine achievement, but not quite the same. I was on a panel with Volcker the other day. He's a very eccentric man, very dogmatic. But in his own way, brilliant. Remember, he was around when the dollar was linked to gold. He was in the Treasury Department in the '50s. He's a relic of the past. You know what? He gave us an antiquated monetary policy. And that's what was needed. He took the gold price down from $800 to $300 an ounce.



Pandagold (4/1/2001; 9:54:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 51178)
stocks LIES and ticker tape A CHALLENGE TO YOU

I do want to leave the forum, as I have more productive things to do with my time than discourse with the likes of you, whose policy seems to be to maintain this forum as a virtual closed shop to all but yourself and your tight little fraternity who reject any alternative view to the general mainstream.

Your comments show lack of vision, and open mind. Your attacks on my posts have been vindictive, and uncalled for.

I came originally, at the invitation of MK who responded once to an e-mail I had sent him incorporating some of my controversial (as opposed to mainstream) views. He felt it would add something to the forum.

When I said I would be leaving the forum, I was most serious, and was most surprised when even one person asked me to stay. One of my reasons I weakened was that I did not think it fair on the few others out there, outside your cosy circle, who do like to see some opposing view, or something to challenge their beliefs and perceptions, and who would appreciate something to stimulate their thinking.

There has ALWAYS been a connection, either directly, or indirectly to GOLD in my posts, because GOLD is my business. I live near the epicenter of the International GOLD market and make sure I attend anything connected with Gold put on there. Almost every penny I have is invested in some form in the gold industry so my money is riding where my mouth is.

I did tell you once that your incorporating the word LIES in your pseudonym was well chosen. And I am about to prove it. I will also prove how it is your intent to appeal to emotion in others to cause me mischief.

These are your words in post#51163

"That individual takes delight in bashing the USA, the US Constitution, Christianity and who knows what next?"

I challenge you to find ONE post, just ONE where I have said anything derogatory (as in 'bashing') about Christianity, or any religion?

Find that, and I will apologise to all and gladly step down.

When you don't find it, then I expect you to apologise.

I hope MK takes note.

As for anything against the US, so have MANY others, as they have about the UK and Europe. I have also criticised the UK, even you remarked on my hinting that it may not be a bad thing if the EU was run by Germany, and gave specific reasons, which was not very complimentary to the UK.


I apologise to all other posters here, for this exchange, but my honour is at stake, and has been challenged repeatedly by this poster, and I want to stop these lies and this nonsense once and for all, not just for me, but for others.

Remember, it is only ONE post you have to find, where I have 'bashed' ANY religion.

EagleOne (4/1/2001; 9:48:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 51177)
+++++++ 252.50 +++++++

I used the Rhode Island Red School of Economic Forecasting GC24k method of evaluating chicken bones, with a standard toss and adjusting for humidity here in Haiti, of course.

Hill Billy Mitchell (4/1/2001; 7:46:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 51176)
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape @ # 51163

UNCLE

Christian (4/1/2001; 7:30:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 51175)
Private Market for credit creation gold
Central banks trade credit creation gold for dollars at 10 times commodity gold price. The fact that someone- somewhere- can settle trillions of dollars of trade imbalances every year with gold priced much greater than that of the commodity gold price, is what makes the dollars value stable. Commodity metals will continue to be sold down to increase the value of the dollar. Same will soon happen to real estate.

Black Blade (4/1/2001; 4:17:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 51174)
+++++$259.30+++++
When stock portfolios fall fast and furious in the coming months will panic ensue and then investors will look desperately for safe harbour - then they will find a Golden lifeboat.

Mr Gresham (4/1/2001; 4:04:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 51173)
Pandagold
http://www.prudentbear.com/boards/user/non-frames/message.asp?forumid=4&messageid=37051&threadid=37029
Well, here is one analysis on the effects and depletion of margin accounts in the shrinking US equity markets.

"It is a valid example on how credit consumes capital, once the process of leverage reverses. "

I imagine that US homeowners will be in analagous straits to US corporations: see who can make the payments to avoid the initial wave of repos, and hold on until a general debt moratorium, and system of workouts allows the stronger mortgage-payers to write down the debt and keep their homes.

For corporations, it will be who can keep the strongest cash flows and balance sheets, and consolidate control within vital industries, as recipients of some new fund allocations, or debt write-downs.

Pandagold (4/1/2001; 3:43:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 51172)
Gold Power

Never forget those words from a member of a family that controls more of this world than the masses are allowed to believe. Their name is kept very low key - almost being relogated to an anachronism.

Who controls the London (and world) bullion market? Gold Bullion, yes gold, the only REAL money - who controls it? Which banking institution sends its representatives every day to set the price.

I would hazard a guess that they know, and only they know, how much gold there is in this world almost to the ounce. And they know where most of it is at any given time. They, and only they know who the buyers are, because GOLD is THEIR business. Are THEY going to consign gold to the scrap heap? Get wise!

Those words again " Let me control the money presses, and I don't care who makes the laws" Another way of saying - Money is the only power, or another way - He who has the gold (money) makes the rules.





Pandagold (4/1/2001; 3:20:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 51171)
Mr Gresham

You echo my sentiments. Put a man in debt, you own him, put a business in debt, you own it, put a nation in debt, you control it. Own - Control - it all amounts to the same thing - POWER! Power to enhance your life above that of another.

This is how TPTB acquired most of their power. (there are one or two other nasty little ways, and they use all of them).

Does anyone still wonder who is soaking up all this 'debt free' real money , yellow stuff at give away prices?

Black Blade (4/1/2001; 1:51:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 51170)
Low snowpack adds a chill to energy outlook
http://www.contracostatimes.com/partners/ns/water_20010331.htm
Snippit:

A state hydrologist says the low precipitation levels -- the state is 40% below normal -- could translate into one-third less electricity

SACRAMENTO -- California's energy outlook grew even darker Friday when a survey revealed low snowpack levels that are certain to cut the output from the state's vast system of hydroelectric plants and increase the likelihood of summer blackouts. The amount of snow on the Golden State's mountains as April arrives is 40 percent below normal, state officials said. As a result, far less water will run off into lakes and streams that feed the state's 379 hydropower facilities. "We already have an energy crisis, and now Mother Nature has gotten into the mix," said Christy Dennis, a spokeswoman for Pacific Gas & Electric Co., which operates 68 hydroelectric plants. "We've already got an ugly summer forecast, and this just adds on top of that."

Black Blade: What more should I say? Another nail in the coffin perhaps. I am working on something and will post more in detail on this crisis later, maybe in a couple of days as this is an extensive subject that will impact the economic picture and therefore paint a picture where gold figures prominently.


Black Blade (4/1/2001; 1:42:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 51169)
Calif. Power Grid Back on Alert As Supplies Fall
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010331/ts/utilities_california_dc_44.html
Snippit:

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - The California Independent System Operator (news - web sites) (ISO), which manages most of the state's power grid, called a stage two emergency on Saturday after power supplies dropped below needed reserve levels.

Black Blade: And so it goes. The Grasshopper does not produce. The Grasshopper does not conserve. The Grasshopper only consumes. "…and they danced, sang, and played all summer…"


Black Blade (4/1/2001; 1:31:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 51168)
re: Invisible Hand
Sir Hand, I have mentioned this as a possibility several times. I think that come next winter the energy situation in NY and the rest of New England will be go critical. It could come as early as this summer if there is a prolonged heat wave. The eastern Grasshopper like his left coast cousin has been opposed to taking responsibility for the inevitable. The consequence will be the same as these locusts consume power generated by their neighbors. The energy crisis will spread outward just like in the western US. In the mind of the locust, it is always someone else's responsibility and they believe that others exist only to serve them. Therefore they will try to use government and political pressure to force their neighbors to serve them and to force the neighboring states to serve as energy farms. However, when the lights go out as they did in 1967 when the electric grid went down in New England the point will be driven down and the economy will continue into its death spiral. Wall Street will see how severe the problem is and we will no longer hear cries from piss ant analysts about how energy isn't important to the economy anymore with the advent of the "New Economy." It could very well be an event reminiscent of the 1929 crash. And we will also no longer hear the squeaking from the psuedo-environmentalist and self-proclaimed activists as the new "war cry" will be "energy at any cost." Not a pretty picture but at least that is my take.


- Black Blade


Mr Gresham (4/1/2001; 1:07:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 51167)
Money flows: Fed, foreigners, treasuries, GSEs
http://www.prudentbear.com/boards/user/non-frames/message.asp?forumid=4&messageid=36614&threadid=366
Try this one on for size, by WRS at PrudentBear. Sounds like a view of the scope we appreciate here, I just don't know enough about these markets to know if it's true:

"I understand from what Mr. Moto said that both Britain and Japan are trading even Treasuries for GSE debt. Now this is a scary development, what is happening is that the Fed is injecting liquidity by printing money to buy GSE's and then
trading them for existing Treasuries. You know what this does? It creates money out of thin air that doesn't just journal out even. When the Fed purchases Treasury debt with FRNs it increases M1/M2 and adds liquidity to the economy. It is supposedly OK to do this because the FRNs represent a claim against the full faith of the US government which
as we know can limitlessly tax the many to enrich the few.

"What happens though when the economy needs money but the US govt doesn't need debt??????????? You enter the situation we are currently in, there just isn't enough debt out there to repurchase anymore. The fed has been doing repos on the 10-15 year stuff since late last fall and I think the market for them is dried up. There aren't anymore that he doesn't own. What happened with the money in a lot of cases was that it went to purchase GSE debt which is not backed by the full faith of the US govt but pays a higher premium. This allows consumers to refinance homes and pay off other debts which injects liquidity right where Greenie needs it. The little problem is that lot's of other debt out there exists and needs a hot money flow to take care of it and Greenie can't get the money there as easily. Primarilly he needs real money in the hands of some stock speculators that are stuck on the wrong side of several stupid bets (read hedge funds and big players like GS).

"So now he needs to pump more money into the stock market to bail those folks out so they can absorb some of the problems beginning to surface as a result of the swindlers down on Lousiana and Smith streets doing their thing (by the way you have to live in Houston to know what this means, it refers to Dynegy,Enron and Reliant Energy which are located on parallel streets, Lousiana and Smith in downtown Houston). So what does he do, he prints money to buy GSEs and offers to exchange them for some of the foreign held Treasuries. You must realize that Greenie can't monetize the foreign Treasuries because that just exacerbates the foreign dollar problem. There are too many dollars outside the shores of the US that he doesn't want coming back here and on the other hand he doesn't want to admit the emperor has no clothes by not repurchasing US federal debt from erstwhile foreigners. He also needs to get that hot money in the US to solve some existing problems.

"Well, you think he is a genius but he now is doing the only thing he can do. It seems smart but anyone with a 15 year memory knows that he is selling bad S&L loans "upstream". He is now buying GSEs from Freddie and Fannie which allows them to invest in the stock market to hold it up. He is trading the GSEs for foreign held Treasuries. What I think is odd is that the foreigners are going for it. Now he gets to add liquidity where he needs it, in the US financial system and he provides liquidity to the bond market without having a net outflow of dollars.

"What is really neat about this finagle is that it gives the Fed the same charter as ever, he only holds US Treasury debt and he isn't really holding GSE debt. The reason this works is because he buys the GSEs for FRNs (which I know are worthless and you will eventually figure out but probably just a little too late to do us any good) and immediately exchanges the GSEs for Treasuries held by foreigners. So you ask me, why would the foreigners want GSE debt instead of the full faith of the US govt? Probably one reason is that it is paying a higher return and the second is that it actually attaches to something tangible, some poor Americans home. So now Greenie is mortgaging America to foreigners in a very direct way. When people dump on their mortgages, guess who willown the property? You got it, the Arabs and Japanese.

"OK so what is the impact of the little imps moves? Well in short he is pumping a ton of money into the market which is liquidating the rats that need to escape the sinking ship. If you really believed this punk dead-cat bounce was going anywhere, you are a first-class sucker and you don't deserve to have the power of attorney. The chumps that buy the dips are jumping back in with some of their refi money that was left over from this last binge (see the attached article). By the way, in my opinion, the refi round is over and rates will not be falling in the near future, they will be rising. Greenie is liquidating the important people and guess what else is happening, they are slowly but surely buying up all the gold they can at low prices. Once enough of the players are out and the suckers have heavy mortgages, worthless stocks and a job that doesn't pay so well but they must have, you own them. "


The Invisible Hand (4/1/2001; 0:55:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 51166)
Black Blade, what's this?
http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/regional/ap185.htm
AP Regional
Giuliani: California-like shortages could occur in NYC if power is not boosted
by LARRY NEUMEISTER
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - The kind of power shortages being weathered by California could occur in New York if power supplies are not quickly increased, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said Saturday.
The mayor, speaking at an afternoon news conference, said the city was 350 megawatts to 400 megawatts shy of what is necessary to meet the power needs of the approaching summer. One megawatt equals 1 million watts.
''If we don't increase significantly the amount of power in the city of New York, we will have happen to us what happened in California,'' Giuliani said.
He said additional power is ''vital for us to be able to put the lights on'' as well as provide power in a city increasingly reliant on high technology that requires more electricity.
His comments came the same day the East River Environmental Coalition and other community and environmental groups protested plans by Consolidated Edison to put new turbines into its East River Power Plant.
The coalition said in a statement that Con Ed was seeking to triple energy production at a plant with smokestacks on East 14th Street despite high rates of asthma in the neighborhood.
''They don't want to consider the health of their customers and neighbors,'' said Susan Steinberg, head of the coalition. ''They don't want to consider how fine particulate matter from its smokestacks triggers asthma attacks.''
Giuliani said Con Edison needed to do a better job of explaining to the public that the expansion of the plant will actually reduce harm to the environment while increasing power available to the city.
Turbines generate steam used by 1,900 customers in Manhattan to power their air conditioning and heating units.
In a statement Saturday, Con Edison said it was ''working very closely with the community to address their concerns.''
''We're working hard to be a good neighbor, and the East River plant will be a cleaner plant using state-of-the-art technology that will lower overall emissions,'' the company said.
The city needs more power in part because of the increasing use of technology and an expanding real estate market that has included large apartment and office buildings in Manhattan and a large number of new homes in Westchester County and Staten Island.
AP-ES-03-31-01 1707EST !--END-->
03/31/2001

The Invisible Hand (4/1/2001; 0:55:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 51165)
Black Blade, what's this?
http://www.newsday.com/ap/text/regional/ap185.htm
AP Regional
Giuliani: California-like shortages could occur in NYC if power is not boosted
by LARRY NEUMEISTER
Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK (AP) - The kind of power shortages being weathered by California could occur in New York if power supplies are not quickly increased, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said Saturday.
The mayor, speaking at an afternoon news conference, said the city was 350 megawatts to 400 megawatts shy of what is necessary to meet the power needs of the approaching summer. One megawatt equals 1 million watts.
''If we don't increase significantly the amount of power in the city of New York, we will have happen to us what happened in California,'' Giuliani said.
He said additional power is ''vital for us to be able to put the lights on'' as well as provide power in a city increasingly reliant on high technology that requires more electricity.
His comments came the same day the East River Environmental Coalition and other community and environmental groups protested plans by Consolidated Edison to put new turbines into its East River Power Plant.
The coalition said in a statement that Con Ed was seeking to triple energy production at a plant with smokestacks on East 14th Street despite high rates of asthma in the neighborhood.
''They don't want to consider the health of their customers and neighbors,'' said Susan Steinberg, head of the coalition. ''They don't want to consider how fine particulate matter from its smokestacks triggers asthma attacks.''
Giuliani said Con Edison needed to do a better job of explaining to the public that the expansion of the plant will actually reduce harm to the environment while increasing power available to the city.
Turbines generate steam used by 1,900 customers in Manhattan to power their air conditioning and heating units.
In a statement Saturday, Con Edison said it was ''working very closely with the community to address their concerns.''
''We're working hard to be a good neighbor, and the East River plant will be a cleaner plant using state-of-the-art technology that will lower overall emissions,'' the company said.
The city needs more power in part because of the increasing use of technology and an expanding real estate market that has included large apartment and office buildings in Manhattan and a large number of new homes in Westchester County and Staten Island.
AP-ES-03-31-01 1707EST !--END-->
03/31/2001

FredBear (4/1/2001; 0:35:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 51164)
****** The New Fifth Horseman *****
The Federal Reserve Note (aka US Dollar) is the New Fifth Horseman.

The demand for gold will be driven by the coming, and necessary, devaluation of the US Dollar against GOLD.

Lord help us.




ViewYesterday's Discussion.

Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.

Thursday February 9
website support: sitemaster@usagold.com
Site Map - Privacy- Disclaimer
The USAGOLD logo and stylized gold coin pile are trademarks of Michael J. Kosares.
© 1997-2012 Michael J. Kosares / USAGOLD All Rights Reserved