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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 5/1/2000
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Elwood (05/01/00; 23:18:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 29727)
TownCrier (05/01/00; 18:07:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 29696)

I can't say I've ever been inspired by elevator music (due respect to elevator guy), but your comments here are appreciated in my home.

TheStranger (05/01/00; 21:57:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 29726)
TownCrier
Crier...thanks for all the elevator music (are you kidding?).

I think, however, you are a little hasty in considering marks, francs, lire, etc. components of the euro in the same way that dimes and nickles comprise the dollar. You know as well as I do that previous attempts at a pan-european currency have failed. At the root of this failure is the same chief shortcoming that the euro has today. Namely, the nations involved have eleven different governments with eleven different economies and eleven different sets of priorities. As I have said before in these pages, as soon as a recession threatens which is unique to a single member, exception to the deficit spending limits will be sought by the government so-afflicted. As you know, this has already happened in the case of Italy. Perhaps just as plausibly, as soon as the government of one member causes the ire of its fellows (as recently happened with Austria for example), that country's membership may be jeopardized. These examples don't seem so farfetched when one considers they have already happened. And the euro is not yet 18 months old.

This is what I mean by a "loose confederation of...states". It is also why I have compared the euro's challenge to that of a three-legged race where all the other runners get to compete untethered. Success as a superior reserve currency to the dollar, as you suggest, may be possible, but it certainly won't be easy...particularly when survival alone isn't even assured.

Canuck (05/01/00; 21:33:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 29725)
US$
From another forum, credit to 'Goldmax':
-----------------------------------------------

I agree with the latest article by Saville (Gold and Stocks Update May 1, 2000).

Short of some major disaster that truly terrorizes the public, gold is going nowhere until the dollar declines against other currencies. As he points out, gold is now up 22% in Euros but is flat or down in dollars.

It seems the Dow and NAZ are only relevant to gold to the extent stock market action adversely affects the dollar. The same can be said for inflation. Ten years ago scary CPI/PPI numbers would result in limit up gold. Now inflation has no effect whatever on the POG.

As a contrarian, I am happy to have purchased my gold stocks at or near the bottom. Someday they will shine when the dollar tanks.
----------------------------------------------------------

Is the US$ 'maxed' out? Will volatile markets, inflation, debt, deficits etc. cause the dollar to falter? If the dollar is at or near it's high then is it logical to say gold is at it's low? Or is there a bigger question. Is gold falling against all currencies because ITS value diminishes? What is the reserve currency of the USA? If US$ is at or near maximum what does the US buy? It is not buying gold, exports figures indicate massive exports thus the USG is assuming higher dollar and/or lower gold, is this not logical? One does not buy something if he expects it to drop, yes? One of three things must be true:

a) USG is not logical
b) US$ is going up, gold is going down
c) Gold is going down on it's own merit.

We are buying and holding gold, the USG is selling, not acccumulating. Who is correct?

Further, euro is dropping against the USD. Gold in USA is dropping, gold is rising in Euroland. Euroland is selling gold because they must feel Euro will increase causing gold to drop; USA is not buying gold for same reasons???

In terms of currency, what am I missing?

ORO (05/01/00; 21:24:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 29724)
USAGOLD - Lawful
If lawful impediments are not possible under the terms of treaty, then what is?

The legal reading would be that recovery of debt is by something other than courts of law. I asked my wife who is an attorney.

It places the contracts at issue, including those pertaining to the debts of the US governments, outside the authority of the law court. In a court of law, there are rights under the constitution and under jurisprudence.

All jurisdiction that remains is equity court where the contract and the statutory authority under which it was signed are all that matter.

The statutes don't have to be constitutional, no common law procedures are necessary, and any constitutional or natural rights can be infringed.

First and foremost, this term of the treaty implies that there is an authority outside the law, under which contracts can be enforced. International, national and state merchant codes state the obligations of parties to contracts of various types such that terms not specified explicitly are those of the statutes in the code. While contracts at common law are valid only in so far as both parties know what they are signing, contracts under merchant law bind the parties to the contents of statutes over which they have no control and one party to undisclosed provisions that the other party does not have to reveal unless exsplicitly asked for.

Mozel's claim, so far as I understand it, is that under the guise of reasonable debt provisions lay the grounds for an extra legal authority that is not bound by the constitution and under which no one is safe, de-facto, in his rights.

The authority for FDR's gold confiscation came from a set of legal claims, the key provisions, a la Mozel and a couple of others:

1. The 1917 Trading With the Enemy act was modified to include all citizens of the several states as enemies of the Federal United States of America.

2. Claimed that when Americans signed up for Social Security, they made themselves into "Individuals" that are artificial persons invoved in commerce. These people signed a contract with the Federal government (by joining Social Security) which references a statute that makes them subjects of the Federal United States. These subjects do not have protection by the constitution against legislation that allows forfeiture without due process.

3. It was claimed that the contract of Social Security and the contracts implied by use of Federal Reserve Notes provide a benefit over gold in that it limited liabilities to those lesser liabilities enumerated in the statutes of commercial law.

#3 was supposed to be necessary because the common law requires that both parties receive a benefit from a contract in order for it to be valid.
--------------------------

The most important point, however, is that of "no lawful impediments" puts outside the authority of the law courts all international contracts and domestic contracts that affect execution of the internaitonal contracts. In one broad reading, it takes the whole of contract law outside the jurisdiction of common law and the constitution.

Furthermore, it makes anyone who has stated himself to be a subject (a.k.a. citizen) of the Federal United States (which is an implied portion of practically any license, registration, or filing with any branch of government). This subject owes allegiance and is obliged to the nonconstitutional legislative democracy to pay its debts, fight in its wars, and abide by the whims of its legislators.

The constitution was supposed to limit the ability of government and "the people", a.k.a. Leviathan, to allocate to themselves the resources. Of particular interest to the framers was the point of not binding Americans to the wishes of Kings and other despots. The treaty laws make a mockery of the intentions of the constitution's writers. In the end, it seems that the concepts of freedom were enshrined in a document which is inaccessible without a sophisticated attorney.
------------------------

It all sounded like BS to me, but you need only a little investigation to see that it is possible.

------------------------

Mozel wrote of a historical situation in which we are still under Martial Law because right after the Civil War, in 1865, the Northern Union declared war on the Confederacy again, and the state of war was never ended. The congress convenes, and the supreme court rules under color of law instead of the law itself. "Color of law" meaning that it is "as if it were law", though it is not.

In this interpretation, the executive branch uses the legislation of the congress and constitution only in so far as it guides their search for claims with which to justify their actions. This interpretation essentially speaks of the government being in a perpetual state of play-acting, of concealing the fact of their having unlimited power.

I have not investigated it beyond a couple of documents after hitting a Supreme Court decision that speaks of Martial Law being outside the authority of any branch of government or of the government as a whole.

--------------------

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 21:08:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 29723)
Another thought or two...
Boy, I either have no input or way too much!

Anyway, IF the pattern holds, we can expect a sell-off going into the FED meeting on May 16th (supposedly because people are anxious about interest rates rising)...

...then we'll get a rally right after the rates are raised (as the dollar is strengthened by the rate hike...coincidence?).

BEN over at Gold-Eagle is calling for a crash within 48 hours...he's either been lucky so far with his models or he's found something useful...who knows.

YGM (05/01/00; 21:08:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 29722)
lamprey....
Open Interest...
for June options is soaring is it not? (I don't follow them)......
Options have expired out of the money so often lately that they (Cabal) may feel they've scared off the competition, before the main event!!!....YGM (confused as always)

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 20:56:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 29721)
Also on June
Now, take this with a grain of salt because I am a total novice on commodity options, but...

There's a guy on Gold-Eagle (Don_L) who has supposedly done quite a bit of work on this end and claims June and December are the key months -- a six month cycle. I have no idea.

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 20:53:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 29720)
YGM
Yes, there is a major tech stock money manager (can't remember his name, but think he has written for CBS Marketwatch) who uses gold stocks heavily as a hedge for his tech stock portfolio.

YGM (05/01/00; 20:52:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 29719)
Sorry for double post...
The second one is complete....

**Lamprey---maybe we need a schedule of June events
2000........(smile).....YGM.

YGM (05/01/00; 20:47:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 29718)
Knallgold & Cavan Man
June Rumor....
Just off the phone w/ the fellow.....Here it is again.....
The un-named Merril Lynch broker last year remembered a conversation he had w/ a client (highly placed Peruvian Official) back in 96. The jist of the comments made by client when asked if he'd like to invest in Gold Stocks were
so strange to the Broker he wrote them down. He (client) said "No" not until June 1999 when Gold is allowed to trade without interference. When asked how he knew this he replied, "All I can say is Gold will not trade freely until June 99! When I called my friend and heard the story, I asked if he would call the client to confirm the prediction and he did over the next few days.....When we again talked, the broker friend said the Peruvian official told him the time frame had been changed to June 2000.. But the fix was still in & would go on for another year............
Intriguing, yes, now if we only had the rest of the story........
Sorry if I sound deluded, but I believe the story, or at least that the people telling it believe it........Time will tell what's real & what isn't.....Hope this helps....YGM

PS: He is going to call the mystery client ASAP and try to renew the conversation over next few days...I will report those results if interested.....OF NOTE...my friend has told the story to a few high profile market players and analysts
since he told me and has had more than a few calls over the "LAST FEW DAYS" all wanting to know what we also seek......One is a name all here would recognize...and he is a tech stock specialist......(promote techs for the sheep and buy PMs for himself maybe) Why would a tech stock analyst be so interested in Gold, especially one ranked among the top 10 winners in the U.S?

....Kaplan may be a whiz, but if he can't see manipulation in PMs, then he better drag his head out of the sand-box. If I'm wrong I'll have alot less people pissed off than he will.

Go GATA & Go Physical....send GATA some ammo $$$$

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 20:46:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 29717)
YGM
Like you, I think you have to keep things like that in the back of your mind while remaining sceptical. I do find it fascinating, however, that Merrill has a plan to set up FDIC insured accounts for their clients by June of this year so they can sweep their money into them in case of severe market turmoil...just another tid-bit I filed away!

YGM (05/01/00; 20:37:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 29716)
Knallgold & Cavan Man
June Rumor....
Just off the phone w/ the fellow.....Here it is again.....
The un-named Merril Lynch broker last year remembered a conversation he had w/ a client (highly placed Peruvian Official) back in 96. The jist of the comments made by client when asked if he'd like to invest in Gold Stocks were
so strange to the Broker he wrote them down. He (client) said "No" not until June 1999 when Gold is allowed to trade without interference. When asked how he knew this he replied, "All I can say is Gold will not trade freely until June 99! When I called my friend and heard the story, I asked if he would call the client to confirm the prediction and he did over the next few days.....When we again talked, the broker friend said the Peruvian official told him the time frame had been changed to June 2000.. But the fix was still in & would go on for another year............
Intriguing, yes, now if we only had the rest of the story........
Sorry if I sound deluded, but I believe the story, or at least that the people telling it believe it........Time will tell what's real & what isn't.....Hope this helps....YGM

....Kaplan may be a whiz, but if he can't see manipulation in PMs, then he better drag his head out of the sand-box. If I'm wrong I'll have alot less people pissed off than he will.

Go GATA & Go Physical....send GATA some ammo $$$$

Solomon Weaver (05/01/00; 20:32:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 29715)
Interesting article on stock market excess
http://www.cross-currents.net/charts.htm
552r3h6ttr

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 20:30:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 29714)
Quote?
Anyone remember that quote from Greenspan?...something like "Gold is the only real form of payment" or "Gold is the payment of last resort" or something like that.

Have no doubt...central bankers do know the importance of gold - and remember, the Brit decision was a political one, not initiated by the BOE.

Cavan Man (05/01/00; 20:20:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 29713)
SteveH and Town Crier
Gentlemen,

You certainly don't need my two cents worth but those last two comments from you both were teriffic and deserving of Cavan Man's highest rating = 5 pints of Guinness!

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 20:10:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 29712)
SteveH
I think Kaplan believes there is no manipulation simply because he gets so many emails asking him about it! He's a total contrarian...anything held by the majority must be wrong -- of course, he was wrong about Platinum, Ebay, on and on...it's just too simplistic an approach.

How he can't see manipulation on the COMEX is beyond me -- and he focuses entirely on that market! When I start to see large sell-offs after normal COMEX hours, maybe I'll rethink my position.

SteveH (05/01/00; 20:03:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 29711)
lamprey_65
One more thing, the anti-gold press is becoming so strong now and there must be a reason to bring out all the guns at once. Bank of England auction, Swiss gold sales, you name it, they are saying it now. Why?

Because the end-game is near? Because the dollar is about to turn? Because gold kept at or below $290 is extremely important? Because pressures are building that requires this amount of anti-gold propaganda? Kaplan is probably right when he says he is extremely positive about gold right now. Commercial longs are increasing more and more.

Get ready, something is going on in gold and dollars and "wese got the best seat in 'da haus, eh?"

Leland (05/01/00; 20:01:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 29710)
Texas Politics ... Ron, FORT-WORTH STAR TELEGRAM, we Thank You For Your Candor
Updated: Monday, May. 1, 2000 at 01:21 CDT

Bush campaign's bark lacks some bite; role as governor gives
him little formal power

By Ron Hutcheson
Star-Telegram Washington bureau

WASHINGTON -- George W. Bush likes to tell audiences that if Texas were a nation,
it would be the world's 11th largest economy. What he does not tell them is how little
formal power he has over the state.

In seeking the nation's top executive office, Bush is touting his experience in a job
that was designed to have minimal clout. As governor, he does not control the
budget. He does not control spending. He cannot introduce legislation. He does not
even get to appoint other top executive branch officials.

Bush's supporters argue that his success in Texas, despite the limited powers of his
office, shows that he has the leadership skills for the White House. Even many of his
critics concede that he has used his powers of persuasion to leverage his limited
authority.

"He does that extremely well, better than any of the other three governors that I have
worked with," said state Sen. Ken Armbrister, a Democrat who supports Bush for
president. "He not only sets the agenda, but he sticks with the agenda."

But other key differences between government in Austin and recent history in
Washington underscore the difficulties Bush would face in trying to fulfill his pledge
to end what he calls "the arms race of anger" in the nation's capital. The partisan
sniping that has become commonplace in Congress is virtually unheard of in the
Texas Legislature, where the two parties happily share power.

"He has basically operated as a nonpartisan governor, and, because of that, he's
gotten tremendous support from Democrats for his policy positions. He can't do that
in Washington. Everything in Washington is partisan," said Charldean Newell, a
professor of public policy at the University of North Texas in Denton. "It's not the
same world that he's used to in Austin."

Bush acknowledged the difficulty in a television interview Thursday evening.

"It's going to be a test to my leadership," he told Jim Lehrer of PBS. "The only thing I
know to do is go by my gut instincts when I get sworn in. But in Texas, one of the
first things I did was I went and called upon Democrats. ... I think that's what's
necessary, Jim, in Washington."

The limits on the power of the Texas governor can be traced to the aftermath of the
Civil War, when Southern states chafed under leadership imposed by the victorious
North. When Texans rewrote their state constitution in 1876, they made sure that
future governors had to share power with a host of elected officials.

"A lot of what we have now is a reaction to what we didn't like 124 years ago," Newell
said, "and what we didn't like was a strong governor."

The Texas governor ranks in the bottom 10 of the 50 state executives in terms of
formal clout, said Larry Sabato, a political scientist at the University of Virginia and a
leading expert on state governors.

In New York, Virginia and other states with strong governors, chief executives can
appoint loyalists to top jobs at every executive branch agency. In Texas, most key
positions, including lieutenant governor, are determined by election. High-level
agency jobs are filled by boards and commissions whose terms are staggered to limit
the governor's influence.

"That means that a governor comes in with a lot of people that his predecessor
appointed, and there is no effective way to get rid of them," Newell said. "His ability
to actually issue orders to the executive branch is pretty limited. The governor is more
in a position of asking rather than telling."

The Texas governor also has limited influence over the state budget. The initial draft
is written, not by the governor, as in many states, but by a panel of legislators.

"We want to be the ones putting together the budget," said Armbrister, the state
senator. He recalled that former Gov. Mark White wrapped his budget proposal in
bright paper, telling lawmakers they could use the document as a doorstop without
worrying that anyone would trip over it.

Still, Bush does have some significant clout.

His power to veto legislation, including line items, gives him strong leverage over a
legislature that is scheduled to meet for only 140 days every two years. The
Legislature has overridden a governor's veto only twice since 1941. The last time was
in 1979.

In addition, Bush has the authority to call lawmakers into special session for an
agenda of his choosing.

Unlike previous governors, Bush has also had time on his side. As the first governor
elected to back-to-back four- year terms, he has been able to replace appointees
installed by former Gov. Ann Richards, a Democrat.

According to figures compiled by the governor's office, Bush's 2,918 appointees have
majority control of more than 300 state boards and commissions.

But most observers say that the real measure of Bush's clout is his ability to influence
the state's agenda. Although Bush has not always prevailed on the specifics, he has
prodded lawmakers to deal with his priorities in every legislative session of his
tenure.

"The informal power of a governorship is at least as important as the formal power,"
Sabato said. "The governor's real power derives from his personality and the size and
importance of his state. He's done very well."

But Sabato questioned whether Bush's bipartisan approach will transfer to
Washington. After all, other presidents, including President Clinton and Bush's
father, made similar commitments before falling into intense partisan warfare with
Congress.

"I hope he's not naive enough to believe that it will be that easy," Sabato said. "If he
does, he needs to talk to Dad."

(Thanks to the FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM with reporters who tell it like it is, and fair use protections apply)

SteveH (05/01/00; 19:58:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 29709)
lamprey_65
I read the question. My thoughts were that the dollar and the Euro are in a tug-o-war. Kaplan (as regular and dedicated a soul he is) just doesn't get that. Therefore he doesn't see that entire nations' CBs are behind keeping the dollar strong and gold weak. When you know this, you soon realize that the candle can be lit from both ends. The Japanese wants the dollar strong, the US wants the dollar strong, the Brits want the dollar strong. When one asks, "Strong against what?" The answer seems to be against gold. Is it easier to manipulate gold? Or, is it easier to manipulate the dollar? When the net effect is the same, the answer seems to be both.

I read somehwhere (probably ORO) that it is easy to control the market through S&P futures. With computer models in spreadsheets on Dell 500mhz machines readily available, market control at key times and in key indices might just be the tool for the job. Fact is, by having a high trade deficit, with the foreign cash looking for a home, to wit: the stock market in the US; and with COMEX paper gold being a small market to control by the purse of large parents (CB's), and the Japanese looking to keep the Yen down, no wonder gold is tanked.

Whenever you here the Sec. of Treas. speak he says it is our policy to have a strong dollar. It all flows from there, doesn't it? Strong dollar=weak gold. Strong gold=weak dollar. So Mr. Kaplan is an astute observer who refuses to see enemies behind every tree, rather he believes in free markets and doesn't or can't see that a strong dollar is the glue that holds it all together. As long as the powers that be can apply more hot glue to the tearing seam, all is well, but things are getting pulled thin and the hot-glue gun is now producing overtime.

If gold wasn't at the center of the dollar universe, no one would give a rip. Gold is king, isn't it?

White Hills (05/01/00; 19:38:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 29708)
Who are these Guys?
Las Vegas Review Journal April 30 2000. London--- Gold prices have probabily seen their highs for the year, as rising government sales meet tepid demand from investors and jewelers, Gold Fields Mineral Services said in an annual report on the gold market.---The metal probabily dwill trade between $260 and $310 an ounce for the rest of the year, the London-based research and consulting firm said. That's below this year's high of 326.90, reached in February on the New York futures market.---A four year slump in gold will continue this year as more central banks, the metal's biggest holders, look to sell their holdings, Golf Fields said.--- Who are these guys? Do the really get paid of this garbage? White Hills

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 19:37:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 29707)
Cavan Man
Another "if gold is just a commodity"....

How come I don't hear of central bank vaults full of coffee, zinc, or soybeans?

White Hills (05/01/00; 19:27:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 29706)
(No Subject)
Test

beesting (05/01/00; 19:23:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 29705)
Sir Lamprey_65 # 29697
Didn't mean to steal your thoughts, I was slowly typing while you were posting,but we were thinking the same thing.....beesting.

beesting (05/01/00; 19:16:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 29704)
Farfel # 29690 Swiss Gold Sales.
From Farfel's post:
<< Partly in response to criticism Switzerland profited from WW II by dealing with the Nazis and hoarding Holocaust victims' assets.>>

Comment:
Something missing from the U.S. press the last few months has been the progress on the return of assets to relatives of Holocaust victims. It was determined last fall by a team led by Americans that there was indeed a large sum deposited by Holocaust victims. Last I heard their still searching for heirs.
It's my contention much of the Holocaust victims deposits were in the form of Gold, since Switzerland banking, to my knowledge, still accepts physical Gold deposits.
Now, I don't like to bring this up, but if 6,000,000 people died in the Holocaust doesn't it sound reasonable that many tonnes of Gold could have been deposited by many of them in neutral Switzerland.Also,much monies were backed by Gold at that time, and redeemable in Gold.Many forms of paper money could have been sent or hand carried to the Swiss bankers and converted into Gold upon deposit.
Remember the Jewish people owned many of the business's through out Europe at that time.

Now, this whole attempt to discredit Gold these last few years may be connected in some way to Gold deposited way back in the 1930's and 1940's. The final bank distributions to Holocaust victims families will probably be made in the "fiat" money of choice, but what if the families demanded original deposits that were made in Gold.
The banks would have to honor that or face class action lawsuits from countless thousands (millions?) of heirs.

Here is some more food for thought:
According to the latest U.S. Government figures, Switzerland has led all other countries in larger than normal amounts of U.S. Gold imported in the last 6 months. WHY????

Now if you were a Swiss banker and didn't want to get cought with your hand in the cookie jar( A U.S. phrase meaning deception).....Since most known physical Gold held by CB's is marked, cataloged, and recorded wouldn't it be prudent for the Swiss to sell Gold recently obtained in off market transactions from the U.S. at any upcoming Gold sales that had been previously announced, in an attempt to completly baffle anyone searching for ancestral Gold?? Or sell the Holocaust Gold to some-one else and replace it with U.S. Gold for some, as yet, unknown reason.

The plot thickens as we watch together.....beesting.

Galearis (05/01/00; 18:59:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 29703)
repost from Kitco by rhody
This got a mute response from the other site, but I found it interesting:
************
Date: Mon May 01 2000 07:16
rhody (spot gold) ID#410367:
Copyright � 2000 rhody/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved

So here we are back at the pog lows of last summer. I am mistaken you say? Nope. At 6% real inflation rates, the $272 that buys one ounce of gold today would be equal to $255 last summer.

Did I hear that gold is actually outperforming the dollar/stock markets? Not if you factor in inflation. Any drop below $US270, and I have to believe gold is signalling a deflationary collapse. The gold/SDR relationship is interesting. The SDR is presently at 1.3188, so 1.3188 X 208 ( pog carried on BIS books ) equals $274.30. This means that the manipulation has now dragged the pog down to where it seriously interferes with the BIS ability to settle accounts. The last time this happened, we got the Washington Accord. How long was gold kept down below 280 last summer before there was a reaction? IMHO, this situation is highly unstable.

Galearis (05/01/00; 18:45:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 29702)
Signs of tigh silver?
This may be old news or new news or ironic news. It is new news to me - and to me ironic at that. I just noticed over on Kitco that the company behind the forum will now purchase lots of junk sterling in 100 oz consignment size. Formally the minimum, to my knowledge was 1000 oz. The market tightens, or is this a purchasing policy change for some other reason?

If it is new news for the Kitcoites, then that would be ironic, yes?

YGM (05/01/00; 18:33:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 29701)
Noteworthy Article....
china daily.com
Goldminers Run Out Of Sites.................

Date: 04/30/2000
Page: 1
Author: GONG ZHENGZHENG, Business Weekly staff

Despite a rising demand for gold in China, the mining sector is running short of proven gold resources.

The sector must beef up efforts in gold resource prospecting to satisfy a mounting demand, said Wang Dexue, director with the Gold Administration under the State Economic and Trade Commission (SETC).

The sector is aiming for an increase of 300 tons to 350 tons in new proven gold reserves and a gold output of 175 tons this year.

With improvements in the people's living standards, gold demand will continue to rise because most of them see the metal as a symbol of wealth, said sources with the World Gold Council.

Gold demand on the Chinese mainland increased by 7 per cent to 205 tons last year, making the country the world's third-largest gold consumer, the sources said.

Gold market deregulation in the country, which Wang has confirmed will begin within about two years, will further stimulate demand.

"Although gold demand growth is very encouraging to the sector, shrinking proven gold reserves have bottlenecked its sustainable development," Wang said in an interview with Business Weekly.

By the end of last year, proven gold reserves decreased to 2,300 tons from 2,400 tons at the end of the country's Eighth Five-Year Plan (1991-95).

Many of the country's gold resources have been squandered by small, low-level gold mines, which hold nearly half of the total proven reserves.

At present, there are more than 1,200 gold mines across the country, among which the small ones hold the lion's share of properties.

The sector will strengthen gold resource prospecting in the western region to break the bottleneck, in line with the central government's call for all-out efforts to develop the region, Wang said.

Only 27 per cent of the proven gold reserves are in the western regions, which cover more than half of the country's total territory.

The sector is in dire need of gold prospecting funds, Wang said.

"But with the country's financial reforms deepening, the sector is losing government financial assistance," Wang said.

The government invested only 100 million yuan (US$12.05 million) in gold prospecting annually during the past three years, compared with about 500 million yuan (US$60.24 million) from 1986 to 1996.

A special fund for gold prospecting will be abolished next year, Wang said.

In addition, the individual mine operators' abilities to reinvest in their own operations is limited because many of them are in dire financial straits because of a gold price slump in recent years, Wang said.

"The sector must explore more fund-raising channels, especially foreign investment, to fuel its gold prospecting," Wang said.

Foreign gold companies have been permitted to invest in the gold sector in line with interim central government provisions guiding foreign investment. But exclusively foreign-funded gold mines are still banned.

The SETC and the State Development Planning Commission are also studying how to remove barriers against foreign investment in the gold sector and how to use foreign investment in risky prospecting for gold resources, said the SETC sources.

Companies from the United States, Canada, Australia, Singapore and the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region intend to co-operate with domestic gold mines in more than ten projects.

The country's approaching accession to the World Trade Organization and gold market deregulation will help accelerate the sector's foreign investment attraction, Wang said.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright by China Daily. All rights reserved.

Leland (05/01/00; 18:18:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 29700)
One of the Stories
Leland (@EJ) ID#31876:
Copyright � 1998 Leland/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved
I'm glad that you chimed in on the confiscation that happened
during the 30's. But, it wasn't just the gold that people
had stashed in their bank 'safety' deposit boxes. Let's say
that you had $100,000 in rolls of $20 bills in a bank box.
When the bank closed, there was no way to get to this money.
Then, when the bank did re-open, you finally went to the
bank to take some money out. In the 'safety' box was only
a receipt. It might have said $5,000 had been removed by
the Feds.
I cannot prove this did happen. That it did happen, I have
friends ( no longer here ) who I believe.

Leland (05/01/00; 18:16:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 29699)
I Went Back to 1998 for Something that I Wrote on Kitco
To find something that RE-INFORCES my earlier statements
about bank safe deposit boxes.

I was just a little boy during the '30s. But, I did believe
what happened to my elders. This is the kind of story that
I will never forget...and is timely.

SHIFTY (05/01/00; 18:13:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 29698)
PONZI
Nasdaq 3,958.08 + Dow 10,811.78 = 14,769.86 divide by 2 = N.Y. PONZI 7,384.93 up 87.65 Ponzi points

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 18:10:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 29697)
Farfel
"Using proceeds from 500 tons, the government is planning the Solidarity Foundation for the poor at home and abroad partly in response to criticism Switzerland profited from World War II by dealing with the Nazis and hoarding Holocaust victims' assets."

Much of these assets consited of gold...I think this is part of the reason for the sale.

TownCrier (05/01/00; 18:07:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 29696)
Reply to Sir Stranger (4/29/2000; 9:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 29582)
Your comment:
"Crier - I don't think your #29517 was really addressed just to me, but I thank you for it just the same."

My comment:
You are correct. I often use the news or the comments of another as a springboard to providing further thoughts for discussion. To address a post (such as the one you cited) to a particular person (such as you, as I have done again with this one) is really just to provide some continuity...a segue into additional subject matter. Except for the few points at which I may offer factual corrections to the commentary found here, for the most part I do not view my participation in the discussion here as anything more than background tapestry, or the equivalent of "elevator music", if you will. The mark I aim for is one of "inspiration" rather than one of direct "influence" (or worse, "substitution") for another person's own thinking process. For that reason, as I am doing even now, although I may address a post "toward" a specific poster, once that segue has been acheived, the comments provided afterwards are written as though its purpose were to serve a high school student looking here for the basis of choosing a topic for a reserch paper for a composition class. Hence the tone that may unintentionally appear to be patronizing in its simplicity.

Next comment:
"My own ... view is that the dollar will be a much more important reserve currency than the euro as long as the euro nations are a socialism-prone, loose confederation of states. That may be a long time."

My comment:
Is it possible that the structure of a currency (such as one that was convertible to gold but now is not) and an economic climate (such as a national trade balance falling into perennial deficit) may in fact evolve to the point where the term "reserve currency" has lost its importance, if not its meaning, altogether? A condition that has all appearances of an "unnatural state of affairs" often requires an unsustainable effort to maintain the "balance". Where evolution has perhaps brought the past usage of U.S. paper to be now out of balance within the modern functioning of the international financial architecture, how much longer may we contentedly assume "business as usual" to greet us with the dawn of each new day? It is, after all, a wide and weary world out there. And as for the politics of socialism, capitalism, or what have you, which I see frequently mentioned as a downfall (or merit) of a particular class of currency, at the end of the day the European Central Bank remains just that--a bank--and must balance its books each night just as is done at the reddest, whitest, and bluest of U.S. banks. The various governmental programs supported by various national fiscal policy and budget will find inefficiency and excess less easy to sustain when the central bank is independant of the nation and will not buy national government bonds like our own Federal Reserve System can, will, and does do outright.

Next comment:
"To this day, I still don't think anyone has ever actually held a euro in his hand."

My comment:
When you hold an assortment of dimes, quarters, and pennies, are you holding a U.S. dollar? This is precisely how it is if you hold French francs, Italian lira, Spanish pesetas, or German marks today. With the fixed exchange rate in place since the beginning of 1999, they have become the many faces of the euro. And just as the U.S. has seen the introduction of new faces on its own currency in recent years albeit with the same denominations (new quarters, dollars, $100s, $50s, $20s), so it will be with the euro beginning January 1, 2002, as the old look is phased out for the new.

Next comment:
"Yet the dollar is a readily accepted alternative to local currencies in day to day trade throughout the developing and lesser-developed world. That is a phenomenon which I suspect would be difficult to supplant, especially since the U.S. is the world's largest exporter, largest importer and has the world's largest absolute balance of payments deficit."

My comment:
"Very true. Looking back to 1971, however, one might also see an evolution in usage and thought spanning 30 years(!) to seem nearly adequate to acheive the bulk of the spadework necessary for the supplantation of "the old way of doing things". And further, even as monetary evolution brought the "developing and lesser-developed world" you mention to turn away from their old paper in favor of the variety that served their needs, one might say that they are now well-practiced and quite capable of doing it yet again when deemed prudent or advantageous. Again, I come back to evolution explaining the past and dictating the future. The T-Rex once had an impressive rule over the world, but is now only silent fleshless king of the fossil beds or else museum curiosities. Will the T-Bill somehow escape the same fate?

And like the dinosaur, whose flesh has failed while the bones endure, so it is with various monetary systems running the entire spectrum from the gold standard to pure fiat currency. New forms evolve to replace the old forms that fail when their contract/derivative "flesh" falls into decay. However, the bones...the gold...always endures to the new age. As such, the world's population knows many "bone collectors" who practice their "trade" throughout the good life and inevitable decay of their own national currency.

USAGOLD (05/01/00; 18:04:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 29695)
Oro. . .
I will preface what I say with the statement that I am not an attorney, though I have studied issues like the one I think this deals with from a political and philosophical point of view.

I have no problem with the United States signing a treaty with the British in which it is reaffirmed that parties entering into contracts are not relieved of the responsibilities agreed upon simply because one side or the other won the war, or one side or the other is more politically, militarily, economically powerful than the other, or because we are separated by an ocean, etc. This is not only good politics, it is good foreign policy for those representing parties on both sides of the Atlantic and made for the good conduct of business from that time forward for both sides. I would hope that such treaties could be signed by civilized countries even today though that might be difficult when you are dealing with Communists, or terrorists, or political gangsters who have a radically different set of values than we do.

I do not read anything into that language beyond what I've just described. I do not detect British tentacles digging subversively under the American legal system to somehow retie the fruits of our labor to the British monarchy (as some have suggested). The Revolutionary War was not fought to relieve the American people of legitimate, freely contracted debt obligations. Please note that reference to creditors "on either side" shall meet with no lawful impediment, etc. -- an Agreement between His Britannic Majesty (who by the way was a madman) and the United States, etc., and I do not see where the debtor would not have recourse. If that be the case, those debtors would enjoy the same advantage (and disadvantages) on both sides of the Atlantic. I see in this language, I might add, capitualtion on the part of His Britannic Majesty, not the opposite -- an extraordinary document under the circumstances.

If I'm missing something here, I'm sure you or Mozel will let me know.

But back to the "subject" discussion, under British law, one might have been at one time termed a "subject" or "skraeling" or "non-entity" simply because they owed a debt (in some forelorn time), but winning the Revolution freed Americans of such a designation, and I believe the British did away with debtor prisons some time ago.

". . . a Republic, if you can keep it, " answered Franklin.

TheStranger (05/01/00; 18:01:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 29694)
James Grant On The Rosy Productivity Numbers
http://www.nytimes.com/00/05/01/oped/01gran.html
Those following the inflation story will want to read today's op-ed piece from the New York Times. Just click on the link above.

Pssst...Lamprey, I was a Cambior victim and was just waiting for a chance to spout some venom. Sorry if I came off adversarial.

Cavan Man (05/01/00; 18:01:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 29693)
Rhetorical Question
If gold is merely a commodity and "worthless" as an investment, why all the disinformation, secrecy and what my kids would call, "funny business". This IMF gold trick just takes the cake.

The Stranger: I am so glad to hear you say that!

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 18:00:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 29692)
I've got a live one!
http://www.goldminingoutlook.com/
OK, folks...take a look at the link above -- it's Kaplan's commentary for today. Scroll down to the second question where he answers concerning manipulation in the gold market (all today's material is in bold type).

I know what I think (I'll wait to see the responses, should be fun!!)...comments, anyone?

Lamprey

lamprey_65 (05/01/00; 17:53:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 29691)
TheStranger
The phrase "what a shame" in reference to to Cambior has more to do with the loss the shareholders have realized than any sorrow I feel for the company's executives. (...and no, I did not own shares).

Farfel (05/01/00; 17:44:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 29690)
Analyzing the Swiss Gold Sale...
Swiss Central Bank to Announce Details of 1,300 Ton Gold Sale Tomorrow
By Andreas Britt

Zurich, May 1 ( Bloomberg ) -- The Swiss central bank will
tomorrow announce details of the sale of 1,300 metric tons of gold
in what will be the lion's share of a five-year joint plan among
European central banks.

The Swiss government today instituted a law allowing the
sales, which could garner as much as 17 billion Swiss francs ( $10
billion ) . The bank will sell the gold gradually so as not to
depress prices, it's said.

Prices recovered last year after the Swiss plan became part
of an agreement by 15 European central banks in which total sales
would be limited to 2,000 tons during five years. Prices plunged
to a 20-year low after the initial Swiss announcement in 1996.

The Swiss want to sell gold ``as soon as possible,'' central
bank President Hans Meyer said at the bank's annual shareholder
meeting Friday. It's one of the few central banks in the world to
offer shares to the public and release earnings figures.

The price of gold fell to an eight-month low of $272.75
today, bringing the year's decline to 5.3 percent. Analysts said
prices have probably seen their highs for the year, as government
sales meet weak demand from investors, according to a report last
week by London consulting firm Gold Fields Mineral Services.

Now that the government has carried through a law allowing
the gold sales, the Swiss central bank, known as the Swiss
National Bank, will make all other decisions including when the
sales will take place and how much will be sold at each sale.

The SNB will publish the results of its gold sales on its
thrice-monthly bank-return reports, the bank's chief spokesman,
Werner Abegg, said. May's three releases are scheduled for
tomorrow, the 11th and the 22nd.

The SNB holds 2,590 tons of gold, making it the biggest
holder of gold per capita -- Switzerland has 7.1 million
inhabitants -- and Switzerland the world's third-largest gold-
holding nation.

Closure

The start of the sales will bring to an end a process begun
in 1996 by SNB President Hans Meyer. When Finance Minister Kaspar
Villiger threw his weight behind the idea a year later, gold took
a tumble, which proved not to be the last time.

While gold dealers are bracing themselves for the Swiss
sales, Switzerland still hasn't decided what it will do with the
cash bonanza.

Using proceeds from 500 tons, the government is planning the
Solidarity Foundation for the poor at home and abroad partly in
response to criticism Switzerland profited from World War II by
dealing with the Nazis and hoarding Holocaust victims' assets.

The Foundation, which was last year put to the parliament,
was defeated as the Social Democrats, who questioned other parts
of the law, added their votes to those of the Swiss People's
Party, the right-wing isolationist group whose figurehead is Ems-
Chemie Holding AG Chief Executive Christoph Blocher.

Cross Purposes

The government has since pledged it will again bring a
proposal before parliament. Nevertheless, the chances of the
Foundation being accepted by government and surviving a popular
referendum declined when the Christian Democratic Party this year
floated the idea of instead giving the money to the International
Committee of the Red Cross, the nonprofit group based in Geneva.

When the bank and the government united to pursue the idea of
a gold-sale plan, the federal government's budget deficit was
steadily widening, bringing the aggregate federal debt to an
estimated 109 billion francs in 1999.

Finance Minister Villiger told Bloomberg News in February
1999 that he wanted to use part of the one-time windfall to cut
the country's debt, in contrast to others who urged spending on
new social programs.

Earlier this year, the government reiterated its plan to
create the Solidarity Foundation, while using the rest -- about
10.4 billion francs with an annual return of about 300 million
francs -- on the state pension, education and lowering debt.

As recently as April 3, Swiss neighbor Austria announced it
would sell 90 metric tons of gold from its reserves, or 20 percent
of its holdings, over five years. The Austrians followed the
Netherlands, which said it would sell 300 tons, and the U.K.

Boom Period

Since Switzerland's gold-sale plan was announced in 1996, the
country's economy has taken off. Economic growth accelerated to an
annualized 3.7 percent in the fourth quarter as exports boomed
from higher European demand and a weaker Swiss franc, setting
Switzerland on course for the quickest expansion in a decade.

Now, political parties are demanding the government spend the
money on more tangible purposes such as the country's state
pension system and education.

The Swiss People's Party, which is also campaigning to keep
Switzerland from joining the European Union, started a popular
initiative to put all proceeds into the state pension fund to
secure the system for future generations.

�2000 Bloomberg L.P. All rights reserved.
-----------------------------------------------

When you read the previous press release, it is hard to imagine a more bizarre logic at work. Reading the piece, it is easy to imagine you are in the Twilight Zone.

The Swiss are eager to sell gold at near all time price lows for which they have no idea how they will use the proceeds????????? Moreover they may end up giving away a good amount to the Red Cross????? Moreover, they are doing this at a time when world stock markets have never looked more unstable and volatile, at a time when gold threatens to
spring from its slumber???? Moreover they are making their gold sales at a time that another Central Bank (ENGLAND) is competing earnestly to achieve the LOWEST POSSIBLE PRICE????

Now Reg Howe thinks that the Swiss gold sale is designed to cover the gold loans of ECM nations that cannot retrieve their gold (since as we all know, the entire concept of gold "loans" is specious in that the collateral is sold and consumed).

Then there are those extreme cynics who suggest that the Swiss gold sale represents the real amount of Switzerland's gold loans, and since that collateral has already been sold and consumed, then the Swiss Central Bank is simply recognizing that fact by "selling" gold it no longer has in its possession and has no chance in hell of retrieving at these current low gold prices. In other words, the entire gold sale is no more than an accounting trick by a Central Bank in which no real gold will go up for sale, it will simly be an intra-Central bank accounting scam.

I personally lean toward the latter interpretation simply because it is compatible with the manner in which today's Clinton (or Debt) Economics works...and Clintonism appears to infect the entire world today.

For example, the Clinton government merrily declares it created a marvelous budget surplus, yet refuses to spend this surplus on anything tangible. Instead, we are treated to many, neverending debates about what to do with the surplus and the net result: the surplus is NEVER spent.

Well, if the so-called budget surplus exists only due to borrowings of Social Security funds that must be repaid someday, then in reality, of course, the budget surplus does not exist and naturally, it makes no sense to spend something that is not real.

Analogously, it makes perfect sense that the Swiss National Bank would NOT try to maximize its returns from a gold sale if in fact, that gold was already disposed of long ago. If the gold is long gone, who cares what price you declare you received since any price above $35 (the price most Central Banks value their gold reserves) constitutes profit to the Central Bank? The only important thing would be to reconcile the books ASAP before any perceptive, investigating citizens discovered the big hole in the government's real gold reserves.

It would make perfect sense for the Swiss to be in a rush to
GIVE away some gold sale proceeds to charity when in fact they no longer have the gold anyway. Send the charities currency, then simply declare the currency to be the result of phony gold sales.

The bottom line is this: there is such a huge absence of fundamental rational logic behind this Swiss gold sale that it is impossible for normal thinking people to view it in any light other than one of scam or conspiracy.

Even if you are a person who has resisted conspiracy theories all your life (and I am of that ilk), this type of irrational behavior on the part of Central Banks compels a person to look for a conspiracy.

In the end analysis, I can only imagine that desperation on the part of Western Central Banks to sell gold at any price may come less from any need for liquidity to service debt and more from a need to suppress this formidable competitor to the US Dollar before the US Dollar comes under attack via collapsing US stock markets and that potential collapse threatens the entire global financial status quo.

Thanks

F*

TheStranger (05/01/00; 17:24:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 29689)
Cambior, Euro, Price Increases
I don't know why Cambior is being described as some fine but unfortunate company. If ever there were a management to deserve rebuke of farfelian proportions it is this one. After all, what was an investment in Cambior if not a bet AGAINST gold for any hapless investor who happened to park his money with these scoundrels? I know there will be lawsuits. I just hope someone goes to jail.

Now the Euro... I have been down on the poor euro since its debut, but enough is enough. This situation has evolved into a currency valuation disparity which is simply too big to ignore. The U.S. has a record current account deficit; Europe is in surplus. Meanwhile, Wall Street is still treating the U.S.inflation story like a minor side show. That is one act of self-delusion about to hit a brick wall. U.S. inflation is already double that on the continent. So, whatever the long-term outlook for dollar/euro, the short-term is about to reverse. And when markets defy macro-economic reality like this, the snapback, when it comes, can be violent. I would look for a significant euro rally very soon.

One last item:
May 1, 2000
"Manufacturers Pass On
Price Increases to Consumers

By MARK TATGE
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Manufacturing companies, faced with higher energy, raw material and labor
costs, are starting to push through price increases to customers."

See Section B, Page 10 for the full story.

YGM (05/01/00; 16:29:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 29688)
Cavan Man....
In answer to your question, I'd have to say I'm at a loss as to when we had the origional discussion here. It was, I believe, 1 to 3 months before June 99, as we had to wait for some time for any confirmation. As we know, it never came.....Personally, I've digested so much since then I'm not sure I can even remember the whole of the story....but I will try to renew the conversation, even if only for personal reasons......I have just as much respect today for the sources story & the source himself, as I did then........YGM.

canamami (05/01/00; 16:11:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 29687)
Reply to Oro - 29682
Interesting point....though some old-style Anglophile Canadian Tories used to claim that the US stayed out of WWII just long enough to suck all the gold and the wealth and the status out of the British Empire, and only then entered the war against Hitler - i.e., delayed fighting Hitler so that when the War ended, the US would reign supreme. Myself, I don't accept that theory, for various reasons, one of which is a dislike of the "rational actor" model of international relations...too many competing internal interests for it to be accurate. In any event, my point is that a lot of Anglophiles share views somewhat similar to yours, but thay view the Americans as the bad guys. I do recall reading a passage from a book by a turn-of-the-century US statesman who said that Canada was too valuable a hostage, such that the US could ensure the British Empire would not give the US any serious problems.

ORO (05/01/00; 16:10:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 29686)
Addendum - a constitutional quote
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/art6.htm
1. All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this constitution, as under the confederation.

[This turns the treaty of 1783 into the law of the land]

2. This constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

[This allows the continued expansion of the authority granted the governments of the States and the Federal government with further treaties.]

Hill Billy Mitchell (05/01/00; 15:59:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 29685)
Official release
http://www.bog.frb.us/releases/H15/update/
Official: Federal Reserve Statistical Release

Release Date: May 1, 2000

Rates for Friday, April 28, 2000

Federal funds 6.06

Treasury constant maturities:
3-month 5.83
10-year 6.23
20-year 6.31
30-year 5.97

upside down spread FF vs long bond = (.09%)

pdeep (05/01/00; 15:48:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 29684)
M3 growth
I just ran the numbers for M3 between the last report on 12/27/99 and last week. It has only grown by 1.9%.

Bad medicine for the markets.

Cavan Man (05/01/00; 15:28:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 29683)
YGM & Knallgold
Can you refer us to the June '99 Forum(s) and posts?

ORO (05/01/00; 15:26:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 29682)
USAGOLD - American Subjects of the Bank of England
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/2000q1/2000%5F03/1000313.025244.mozeleeee.htm
MK,

You asked about the issue of the reference to Americans as Subjects.

Indeed, the only way that Americans be made into citizens again is that they do not owe debt, and that they are not registered as persons in commerce. I have not a clue as to how this would be possible.

A good read of Mozel's posts at Kitco will be a great eye opener. In his case, put the salt away for your first read, his analysis survived the limited scrutiny I had an opportunity to subject it to - so far, no reason for doubt has tainted his reading.
Upon second reading you might want to take up the salt shaker and put liberal amounts of salt on your preconceptions regarding law and the constitution. It will become obvious to you that these preconceptions are not but a piece of fiction taught you in government schools.

A discussion of Mozel's analysis follows.

Treaty of 1783 Peace treaty with England which involves Spain and France
http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/paris.htm
Article 4:
It is agreed that creditors on either side shall meet with no lawful impediment to the recovery of the full value in sterling money of all bona fide debts heretofore contracted.
----------------------
"...without lawful impediment..."
What does it mean?
Mozel gives a discussion of subsequent traties and their significance
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/2000q1/2000%5F03/1000313.025244.mozeleeee.htm
Mozel's key observations
1. This means that there can be no redress in the courts to a debtor. It poses execution of debt contracts with the British King as superceding law.
2. Furthermore, it creates the term "Individual" that means "person engaged in commerce" which is not due the protections of law, and those of the constitution.
3. The treaties bind the US to discharge debt with no recourse to law. This puts the whole government of the US and the several States above the law of the courts and the constitution when executing the terms of debt contract with the King of the Britons and subjects he may favor.

Descriptions of the resulting legal status of people as artificial legal entities - "individual" means incorporated person - who is not subject to any rights under the constitution.
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/1998q1/1998%5F02/980228.134736.mozeleeee.htm
http://www.kitcomm.com/comments/gold/1998q1/1998%5F03/980305.135549.mozeleeee.htm
Sources:
1802 Convention:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/jayconv.htm
Key Article:
ARTICLE, IId
Whereas it is agreed by the Fourth Article of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, concluded at Paris, on the Third Day of September, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Eighty Three, between His Britannic Majesty and the United States, that Creditors on either Side should meet with no lawful Impediment to the Recovery of the full Value in Sterling Money, of all bona Fide Debts theretofore contracted, it is hereby declared that the said fourth Article, so far as respects its future Operation, is hereby recognized, confirmed and declared to be binding and obligatory on His Britannic Majesty and the said United States, and the same shall be accordingly observed with punctuality and good Faith, and so as that the said Creditors shall hereafter meet with no lawful Impediment to the Recovery of the full Value in Sterling Money of their bona Fide Debts.

Second Key article:
Treaty of 1783
http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/paris.htm
ARTICLE 10.
Neither the Debts due from Individuals of the one Nation, to Individuals of the other, nor shares nor monies, which they may have in the public Funds, or in the public or private Banks shall ever, in any Event of war, or national differences, be sequestered, or confiscated, it being unjust and impolitick that Debts and Engagements contracted and made by Individuals having confidence in each other, and in their respective Governments, should ever be destroyed or impaired by national authority, on account of national Differences and Discontents.
------------------------------
Now tell me who it is that has written these treaties.
Wouldn't these be the Bankers to the Crown of England? Those granted Royal Charters to own whole lands, their people and property?
------------------------------

US people are viewed as subjects of the US government in some of the base treaties with His Britannic Thief and Thug
Treaty of 1783
http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/paris.htm

ARTICLE 1
His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, Viz New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free Sovereign and independent States; That he treats with them as such; And for himself, his Heirs and Successors, relinquishes all Claims to the Government, Propriety, and territorial Rights of the same, and every part thereof; and that all Disputes which might arise in future, on the Subject of the Boundaries of the said United States, may be prevented, It is hereby agreed and declared that the following are, and shall be their Boundaries Viz

The proclamation of congress
http://elsinore.cis.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/proc1783.htm

We have thought fit to make known the same to the Citizens of these States and we hereby strictly Charge and Command all our Officers, both by Sea and Land, and others, Subjects of these United States, to Forbear all Acts of Hostility, either by Sea or by Land, against His Britannic Majesty or his Subjects, from and after the respective Times agreed upon between their Most Christian and Britannic Majesties as aforesaid.
-----
Most Christian = Kings of France and Spain

YGM (5/1/2000; 14:50:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 29681)
Of Interest.........Worthy of Commentary....TC?..Anyone?
Unedited...
Denmark's Ruling Social Democrats Say Yes to EuroAFPMay 1, 2000

ODENSE, Denmark - Denmark's ruling Social Democrats voted overwhelmingly in favour of joining the euro zone at a special conference Sunday ahead of a national referendum on the single currency on September 28.

Out of 501 delegates, only 15 voted against, Ritzau news agency reported.

The conference opened with a passionate speech by the party's leader, Prime Minister Poul Nyrup Rassussen, in support of joining the euro.

"Economic and monetary union is the surest protection against the effects of international currency crises and stops speculation," he told the meeting.

The majority of delegates had already decided to back Rasmussen's push for euro membership after the party executive committee almost unanimously recommended a yes vote.

The resolution before the conference stated that the single currency "will ensure the prosperity and stability of the economy...and enable Denmark to influence communal decisions affecting its future."

Denmark is a member of the European Union but in 1992 its electors rejected the Maastricht Treaty covering the euro as well as matters of external affairs and security.

Voters later approved the treaty with an annexe which effectively enabled Denmark to opt out of its provisions unless another referendum decided otherwise.

According to a Gallup poll published last Tuesday, 52 percent of Denmark's Social Democrats favoured joining the euro, with 35 percent opposed and 13 percent undecided.

COPYRIGHT 2000 Agence France-Presse. All rights reserved.

YGM (5/1/2000; 14:42:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 29680)
Knallgold......your #29661 reply...
You're Not Alone....
For I also have been entertaining similiar thoughts lately about the June story.....I have a call in just now to the origional Merrill Lynch broker who (friend also) told me of this mysterious story......Farfel if I remember correctly had the breakfast story along about the same time......I will let you know of the results when my call is returned tonite.....
It's sometimes difficult not to entertain thoughts of conspiracies when you read the "Sting" follow GATA, and hear these types of rumours, at least to my mind anyways... But maybe I just want there to be a "Conspiricy Afoot".... Reason tells me otherwise! Myself, possibly you and many others are at least questioning the big picture w/ scepticism.......Makes the Gold market less boring, no?...........YGM

lamprey_65 (5/1/2000; 14:19:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 29679)
Galaeris
Yes, basically a waste of time. Best way is to find a good dealer and buy in quantity to lock in a discount.

Galearis (5/1/2000; 14:11:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 29678)
Lamprey_65
Buying advice/observation for eBay purchases of silver (I hesitate that this even be taken for advice): One has to wait for a lower (or lowering POS) that lasts for the duration of the auction. This tends to disinterest prospective buyers, hopefully for the duration of ones own interest in it. One is inclined to think that this buying behavior is initiated by those who may have an incling about the fundamentals and shortfalls of the silver market, and that they are quietly accumulating metal for the explosion to come. Except for the novelty bars for sale, the range is tight and correlates with spot fairly closely - with, of course, the premium added for liquidity as it relates to the size of the bar.

Like you I dabbled in this a little, just to see what would happen. I was fortunate. Most of the time this is a waste of time and money.

My great coup in savings on my eBay purchase amounted to a whopping $8.

lamprey_65 (5/1/2000; 13:47:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 29677)
Galearis
Yes, I have noticed the prices inching up on Ebay over the past few weeks. I also play around with 1/10 ounce gold bullion pieces there...prices slowly rising over the past month. Very strange. Seems that as POG falls, interest in buying goes up on Ebay...prices then follow.

Usul (5/1/2000; 13:47:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 29676)
What are 'they' really afraid of?
What are the "Powers that be" really afraid of? And what
should we, as goldbugs, look out for as signs that gold
might begin to experience exceptional demand?

"Reichenberger flinched. He, like all German bankers, did
not like to hear about the collapse of the Herstatt bank,
back in 1974. Just as American bankers preferred to avoid
the subject of Franklin National. Both were billion-dollar
institutions, and both had gone belly-up. In late 1978,
everybody in the business knew that such things could
happen again. But on an unimaginably larger scale."
-Paul E. Erdman, "The Crash of '79", Sphere Books, 1977.

Erdman's story was a work of fiction- but Herstatt and
Franklin were real enough. Bankhaus Herstatt was a small
German bank highly active in foreign exchange dealings, and
it was a string of losses in these dealings that caused its
demise in June 1974. It left $620m of unsettled forex
trades, where counterparties had paid up but had not
received the exchange currency- the time difference between
settlements in different countries was important here. The
bank had already been closed down by the time that the
payment of currency owed was due.

Herstatt's default set up a terrifying domino effect of
payment defaults throughout the international banking
community- of the kind that they never want to see again,
at all costs.

Franklin National failed in October 1974, apparently due to
poor credit control. A bank with over $3bn of assets, it
was not "too big to fail".

The problems in these two banks led to the setting up of the
Basle Committee on Banking Supervision, the Secretariat for
which is provided by the BIS, with its international
oversight of banks' capital adequacy standards. It also
led to international efforts to make improvements in the
timing and synchronisation of settlements between
international time zones. We watch to see whether banks
are running into capital adequacy limits. This was
recently a key issue in Japan.

The failure of these banks was also accompanied by a large
spread between three-month CD rates and three-month Treasury
bill rates [according to the Richmond Fed, 1998].

We watch such "spreads" for insight into the prevailing
concern over the risk of potential default in the 'system'.

It is also apparent from a consideration of the Herstatt
event that a too-rapid change in, for example, the
yen/dollar rate, could result in defaulted payments due to
the timing of events in addition to the stress on forex
positions. This is perhaps a consideration behind the
frequent comments from Japanese officials that a too-rapid
change in the strength of the Yen is undesirable.

"It was the judgment of officials at the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York, who were monitoring the situation on an
ongoing basis, that the act of unwinding LTCM's portfolio in
a forced liqudiation would not only have a significant
distorting impact on market prices but also in the
process could produce large losses, or worse, for a number
of creditors and counterparties, and for other market
participants who were not directly involved with LTCM. In
that environment, it was the FRBNY's judgment that it was to
the advantage of all parties--including the creditors and
other market participants--to engender if at all possible
an orderly resolution rather than let the firm go into
disorderly fire-sale liquidation following a set of
cascading cross defaults."
- Alan Greenspan, October 1, 1998

In the 1920s, money flowed into various European countries-
such as Austria. With such a flow of easy money, banks,
such as Austria's Credit-Anstalt bank, were tempted to lend
too freely without the controls that would have been applied
in more austere times.

Austria ran up a large import-export deficit, importing more
than it exported and financing the difference by borrowing
from other countries.

We goldbugs should consider where the easy money flows,
where institutions exist in an environment that encourages
laxity, and where the burden of debt lies.

After the famous 1929 Wall Street crash, banks tightened up
on lending, and as a consequence, many people found
themselves unable to repay debts. This of course only
worsened the credit crunch and liquidity crisis (today there
is a determination by monetary authorities that such a
credit crunch will be headed off by injections of
liquidity). We watch the money supply indicators, such as
the aggregate MZM, and the activities of the Fed in
conducting 'repo' and similar operations, to see what is
going on behind the scenes.

However, they are between a rock and a hard place, in that
the opposite of a deflationary spiral is an inflationary
one, so they are forced to inject liquidity with one hand,
while hiking interest rates with the other- not too fast
mind, or that might spook the markets! What happens when
the rock and the hard place come together with increasing
force? That sounds a bit like an earthquake zone!

We also notice events such as the nationalisation of the
Long Term Credit Bank of Japan in 1998, judged insolvent by
the FSA in October and placed under state control after
"special loans" from the BOJ failed to do the trick. Events
such as these surely animate the spectre of the
Credit-Anstalt in the 1930s, and Herstatt in the '70s, in
today's monetary authorities.

"The failure of some banks is highly contagious to other
banks and businesses that deal with them"
- Alan Greenspan, Sep 23, 1998

The hasty bail-out of the Long-Term Capital Management hedge
fund in the US by third parties rounded up by the Fed was
another eyebrow-raising event for goldbugs, and as Alan
Greenspan said, it "could have potentially impaired
the economies of many nations, including our own".

Apparently, this bailout was so successful, the partners
received Christmas bonuses that same year.

The powers-that-be were scared (one Fed governor was
reported as describing it as an 11th-hour rescue) that a
failure of LTCM, which had borrowed heavily from other
institutions, could have caused a cascading series
of cross-defaults, spreading a crisis through the banking
system.

From 1930, Austrian and foreign depositors took money out
of the Credit-Anstalt bank on worries over the soundness of
the bank's loans, leading ultimately to the bank's failure
in Spring, 1931. This was the first domino in an expanding
series of financial problems that exacerbated the economic
misery of the 1930s.

Price deflation had raised the value of debts (the opposite
of inflation, which allows debts to fade away of their own
accord).

Germany had been paying formal reparations, financed by
short-term borrowing (note that the current yield curve
inversion has been caused by a preference for short-term
borrowing over long-term- another thing to watch).

The Bank of England bailed out the Austrians with 4.5
million pounds Sterling. This did not impress the French
and others, who sold the pound, leading to a suspension of
gold parity on 21st September, 1932. When all else fails,
people run to gold.

Where is the risk in a stock market crash? People losing
substantial amounts of money clearly won't be wanting to
spend money into the economy any more. But perhaps a
scarier prospect is the level of speculation funded by
borrowed money. Not now margin supplied by brokers, which,
at lower levels than 1929, is often trumpeted as a good
(as in well-controlled) thing, but other sources- maxed-out
credit cards, bank loans, and mortgage funds. The latter
brings to mind the liquidity supplied today by
non-government agencies such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac-
about which the public was recently reminded that they do
not have the guarantees that some people seem to think they
have. Keep an eye on these alternative sources of credit.
A stock market crash today could put strain on a wide range
of lending counterparties.

Some banks may also be subject to risks associated with the
difficulties in farming with produce at ruinously low prices
for the farmer. If there is a bank whose customers are a
mix of farmers and stock market investors, you can bet they
are worried at any market instability.

The one thing that must be preserved by priority, beyond the
integrity of the stock markets and individual investors, is
the integrity of the the settlement of obligations between
counterparties in the banking system.

The stock market might be allowed to crash and recover, as
in 1987, but if the problems should even hint at the
possibility of cascading cross-defaults, as in the LTCM
crisis, then that is where all the stops will be pulled out,
or the alternative is a repeat of the 1930s.

The Franklin National bank was once thought "too big
to fail"- yet it failed. Could it happen again?

If the financial system melts down, money in banks may
become inaccessible; severe inflation or deflation may
ensue; but only investments in precious metals
(particularly those held independently of third parties)
will be secure.

Golden Boy (5/1/2000; 13:42:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 29675)
Cambior
nickel62! Cambior has yet to sell their copper exploration properties. They recently wrote them down to what they believe is their market value of US$65mln. They did sell Bouchard-Hebert and Langois last month to Breakwater. Lamprey_65, it is a shame that Cambior did what they did and their share price a suffered miserably. But, their Net Asset Value is well above where they are trading at today, I estimate it at C$3.00 using conservative estimates. The market has factored in the assumption that they cannot meet their debt payment of $75mln by June 30. They sold two mines for $48 million leaving them $27 million to come up with by June. They have $14mln in cash, therefore only $13mln needed to find by June. The company said in its conference call last Tuesday that they are close to completing a couple of deals. They could sell Niobec for $35-$40mln or their copper assets for $65 mln. They have another $120 mln in Debt due at the end of December but that can easily be refinanced considering that Cambior produces 600,000 profitable ounces a year. This is a great stock to own, take-over or no take-over. With gold where it is today, the company is getting close to being able to close out its hedge book at no cost, another factor heavily weighing on the company. Great Buying Opportunity.

Galearis (5/1/2000; 13:20:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 29674)
@Lamprey_65
Yes, indeed, eBay is increasingly not the place to buy bullion! I don't know whether you have been keeping track, but the prices on eBay seem to be inching up even as POS keeps "inching" down.

My last forway into this nail-biting buy method netted me 4 10 ozers at an average price of $57 ea. I have since found a coin dealer who will do much better, both in price and lower stress level (while one waits for the delivery and customs damage). Never again. Prices are now averaging over $60. Canadian buyers must know that with insured parcels of bullion, they WILL be hit with PST and GST at the border. This quickly makes such purchases less than agreable.

My bullion dealer (on this side of the border, M.K.) is slightly slightly cheaper than Kitco - and without the shipping costs! My advice for buyers is to go to the best suppliers in your respective countries. USAGOLD is (of course!) highly recommended, but to avoid shipping costs and other add-ons, a prudent shopper can sometimes do very well in the local area.

lamprey_65 (5/1/2000; 12:48:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 29673)
Cavan Man
I have no idea. I've kept away from the company since the hedge problem was announced...just too risky.

As an aside...so close to picking up some cheap silver rounds this weekend on Ebay...last minute bidders drove it way up, as usual. Not a good place for bullion, imo -- a seller's market. I play around just to see if people aren't paying attention -- very rarely happens on bullion.

Cavan Man (5/1/2000; 12:39:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 29672)
Golden Boy or lamprey_65
What might CBJ sell for considering their hedge book problems? What about their extraction cost and are they a low cost miner?

nickel62 (5/1/2000; 12:38:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 29671)
Golden Boy I enjoyed your comments on Cambior. I think you are right on.
It is a real shame that a fine company like Cambior has been ripped apart by the actions of the market manipulators, but Teck is a very well managed company and the Cambior shareholders could do a lot worse than be taken over by a mining company with Teck's expertise. I think I will go take another look at Teck as a good investment since this acquisition also has a fair number of attractions included in it for an upside story in Tech when the gold prices rebound. Are the copper plays that Cambior used to have still part of the company or have they been sold off to stave off bankruptcy?

TownCrier (5/1/2000; 12:33:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 29670)
HEADLINE: Germany's Schlecht Says ECB Will Intervene If Euro Hits $0.90
http://quote.bloomberg.com/pgcgi.cgi?T=markets_newsfeat99.ht=&ptitle=EMU%20Top%20Stories&touch=1&s=AOQwF5xQ6R2VybWFu
In this person's opinion, that remains to be seen...meaning, I'll believe it when I see it. Given ample demonstration of ECB policy/philosophy, I would be surprised to see any "intervention" which took the form of direct FOREX maneuvers. I would look for something more subtle and meaningful. Forex intervention is for chumps...unless the objective is to unload any unwanted foreign exchange reserves. But that is not the purpose of this post. This is...

The Bloomberg reporter offered this comment:
"Part of the reason for the euro's decline is that its exchange value was set too high when the currency was born in January 1999...The euro, which has lost more than one-fifth of its value since its debut 14 months ago, earlier this week plunged to a record-low of 90.33 U.S. cents."

Of specific note is this phrase that the euro "has lost more than one-fifth of its value" to about 90 cents (U.S.).

Think for a moment about "value". That Bloomberg reporter is implying that something only has meaningful measurable value in terms of its "price" in U.S. dollars. Does anyone think for a minute that the citizens using the euro have lost more than 20% of their ability to entertain friends in a local tavern or restaurant, to fill their grocery bags, or to build a new house?

As a whole, running a trade surplus ensures that eurolanders are probably more inclined to be buying beers and sandwiches with their euros rather than buying dollars. So why all the media fuss over the external exchange rate against dollars as though it were the only true measure and meaning of "value"? If you can't decipher for yourself what is real, you are doomed to be forever led around by the hand at the mercy of others.

Right now, the ECB's biggest problem, as I see it, is one of PR (public relations)...maintaining public confidence in the face of media proclamations of "lost value" against an item that is nothing more than some OTHER nation's own paper currency. To see this more clearly, draw from your own experience as Americans recently when the dollar dropped in external exchange rate against the Yen...falling from approximately 140 yen down to 100 yen. Did your currency truly lose over one-fourth of its "value"? Or did you continue to offer your own services for the same wages, and did your tall cold ones still cost the same at your favorite watering hole?

But make no mistake, when a currency truly "breaks" as we saw many do throughout the Asian Contagion, local prices can certainly get out of hand quickly, particularly if the nation is not self-sufficient or out of debt, and if the rest of the world has little need for the local currency.

As regards the dollar price of euros or the dollar price of gold, there seems to be a clear and strong media agenda to build up the dollar at the expense of these others. Why does the dollar need so much outside support and cheerleading? A sign of trouble? With no similar spokesperson, gold is right in the thick of things and holding its own quite nicely. In the end, gold in hand remains a real wealth asset, whereas with paper currency you can't be too certain exactly what you've got, value-wise, from one day to the next. The paper giants are squaring off, and with gold you can remain safely upon the battlefield, whatever the outcome.

JT (5/1/2000; 12:25:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 29669)
Test
Test

lamprey_65 (5/1/2000; 11:54:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 29668)
Golden Boy
You may be on to something...noticed the accumulation pattern last week. A buyout is Cambior's only hope...what a shame.

Knallgold (5/1/2000; 9:49:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 29667)
Henri
http://www.swissquote.com/

On the BIZ stock, click on "historical" and it shows you a 1 year chart.

Golden Boy (5/1/2000; 9:06:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 29666)
Cambior to be Taken Over
Rumor has it from credible sources that Teck is close to buying Cambior. Taking a look at Cambior's trading patterns last week confirms there's a potential buyer. On Tuesday and Thursday, somebody manipulated Cambior's share price down about $0.08 both days in the last minute. It was the same brokerage firm invloved both times and that brokerage firm was E*trade. E*trade is known for being the firm that companies go to when they don't want to be recognized in the market, because the market believe it is individuals only that trade through E*trade. The two companies would make a very good fit since Teck is a gold company with other base metal assets. The Niobec mine is owned 50%-50% between Teck and Cambior and is valued at roughly $100 million. Cambior's hedge book fits perfectly into Teck's existing hedge position. Cambior's share price is down only because of the debt it has to pay off by June 30 and December 30. Cambior owes $70 million by June and Roughly another $100 million by December. Teck will have no problem making these payments or refinancing the debt. Cambior just recently wrote-down all of their assets to market levels and their book value after the write-downs is $4.00 CDN. This stock is exceptionally cheap and they produce over 600,000 ounces of gold per year. Any mid-size gold producer with a good balance sheet would love to buy this company. Other companies in the running for Cambior are rumored to be Agnico-Eagle(their LaRonde mine is very close to Cambior's Doyon mine)and Battle Mountain(they are looking for long life assets)

USAGOLD (5/1/2000; 8:16:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 29665)
Today's Report: Quiet Start to What Could Be Interestingn Week
http://www.usagold.com/Order_Form.html
5/1/00 Indications
�Current
�Change
Gold June Comex
274.10
-.60
Silver May Comex
5.03
+.01
30 Yr TBond June CBOT
96~22
+0~04
Dollar Index June NYBOT
110.06
+0.35

Market Report (5/1/00): Gold was off marginally this morning awaiting word on how the
Swiss sales would actually be handled. Though within the guidelines of the Washington
Agreement -- which would keep this year's tranche on the low end -- dealers would still rather pay
a few dollars less for the metal to be released if at all possible, so much of today's buying has
remained on the sidelines. The Asian markets were described by Bridge News as "sluggish" with
some light short covering on dips. London is closed for the May Day holiday. Japan is celebrating
Golden Days so much of today's action will be centered in New York. The dollar started the day
up slightly against the euro, Swissie, and yen. No one knows at the moment the full effects on the
markets of George Soros' decision to switch to a "less risky" investment style and restructure his
hedge fund operations. His hedge funds have lost roughly 20% on some big bets in technology
stocks that went sour. This week we have Leading Indicators,the Beige Book on Wednesday and
the Unemployment numbers on Friday. The Fed Open Market Committee meets on the 16th.

That's it for today, my friends. See you here tomorrow.

The May News & Views is now on its way and should be hitting your mail boxes over the next
few days. We think you are going to like this issue written during the weekend after the April 14
Wall Street Meltdown.

If you are looking for a pro-gold view of the various financial markets as well as a summary of the
events affecting the yellow metal, our monthly newsletter might be of interest. News & Views
-- Forecasts, Commentary & Analysis on the Economy and Precious Metals has
been characterized as witty, urbane, intelligent and down-to-earth. Not to mention it's Free of
Charge If you want to keep up with gold, this is the way a large segment of the gold owning
public does it, and has done it for over a decade.

Just click on link above and make the appropriate entries.

Henri (5/1/2000; 7:44:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 29664)
Knallgold Post #29641
Where did you access a chart for BIZ?

ss of nep (5/1/2000; 5:36:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 29663)
HI - HAT (4/29/2000; 18:37:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 29597)
Cavan Man Peter Asher Stranger The Road
- - - - -
HI - HAT (4/29/2000; 18:37:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 29597)
Cavan Man Peter Asher Stranger The Road
At this point in the game, Capitolism verses Socialism is a semantic charade. The ruling operative forces have propagandized their respective countries masses of people into systems of "lawfully" mandated proceedures of wealth extraction. We are the slaves of the system. We are the systems property. The system will determine whats fair and reasonable for you to live on of the fruits of your labor after their take.

The road has arrived at Clintons and Blairs, "Third Way". The third way, is the fruition of Fabianism, which stipped of platitudes is really just a kinder, gentler Fascism.

It is immoral for the Thugs to take at gunpoint under the force of law the earnings of labor that has not been contractualy agreed too.

- - - - - -

I've only just been reading the posts of the last few days
and would like to comment on the one above.

- - - - - -

The Hegelian Dialectic...

Thesis : Capitalism

Antithesis : Communism

Synthesis : Fascism - Is to be the result of the Dialectic process.

- - - - - -

Capitalism and Communism ( niether of which have ever existed in pure( idealistic ) form ) were created to oppose one another.

- - - - - -

The Dialectic - it is everywhere.

And has been around longer then it might be thought, for example, consider the Council at Nicea approx. 325 AD.

- - - - - -

Knallgold (5/1/2000; 4:02:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 29662)
Free Gold,further...
So the WA was only a warning shot.And they couldn't go further yet(to a free physical market) as their physical holdings were still loaned out.And the Swiss Gold is the main and largest part of the WA with which they intended to secure their loans.The legal stuff on this Swiss Gold was long unclear,the vote for the new Swiss constitution April(?) 99 opened the door,but the required legislation was still pending.And this takes time in Switzerland'so they risked only the WA in September 99.December last year,the parliament approved finally the legislation,and the dead line for the referendum ended 20.April,the law comes into force today,Labor Day.
Just thinking loud...

Knallgold (5/1/2000; 3:37:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 29661)
Free Gold
Reading YGM's name here again, reminded me of the "June rumour" of last year,because YGM brought it up first in the Gold forums;though away of the date,that was the post of the year IMHO!(Gambler delayed it to the 12.July,but the ECB "shot" it then at the end of September.)

BUT:the original "rumour" was that the ECB wants to free Gold.And the Washington Agreement was only about the curtailment of Gold activities!And, if I remember it correctly, YGM told us that the ECB postponed the "June free Gold" initially to 2000,then back again to 1999.

What now , if it has been postponed again?And the June rumour is still "in work",to free Gold in June 2000?FOA gave hints that the ECB might consider another announcement ala WA if necessary (including recently some strange "very soon" remarks).And the free physical Gold market has still to be announced.CB's hate disorderly markets'so they do it in little steps,"controlled burn"(FOA).
And the Swiss "start" to sell in May(!)and secures the Gold loans of the ECB (Howe).The June contract is also the heaviest loaded with options,40% (?) of all contracts(Don_L.),if they can expire worthless,much pain is reduced for the writers.Unless the ECB plans an unfriendly attack,the deathblow for the $papergoldmarkets.

YGM,any updates on the June rumour?

Leland (5/1/2000; 1:36:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 29660)
Scott Burns' Visit With Chris Sanders
http://www.scottburns.com/000418TU.htm
"Over a period of two hours, Mr.
Sanders carefully laid out an interpretation of the U.S.
economy that isn't popular and that we seldom hear.
It's one in which others look at our expanding private
debt, rising stock prices, and our massive trade deficit
and conclude that trouble is looming."

Leland (5/1/2000; 1:18:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 29659)
Scott Burns, THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS, Visits With David Tice
http://dallasnews.com/business/columnists/71472_burns_30bus.AR.html
"Most investors don't see the possibility of a bear
market, he explained, because most investors have
never experienced one."

ViewYesterday's Discussion.

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