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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 12/1/2000 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) tedw (12/01/00; 23:29:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42658) comex http://www.usagold.com Goldhunter:I beg to differ with you. The rules were changed by Comex.Prior to the Washington Agreement, you could sell options at a price. For a time, you could not sell at a set price only at market. THAT WAS COMEX MAKING THE RULES. As I said a friend placed a sell order when the last trade was $800, and sold expecting to get that and got only $250. He was cheated by the Comex and thier changing of the rules. You can make excuses for them if you want, but that is reality. And where was the CFTC? megatron (12/01/00; 23:17:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 42657) goldhunter Good luck getting a rational let alone informed discussion about futures with this crew. Most and I stress most of these posters have never bought or sold a call in thier life'so don't sweat it. They can predict the future as well as you me or anyone, which is none. Futures are a tool to be used by intelligent, savvy investors which is why 90% of them lose money, because they are not intelligent savvy investors. Rigged or no rig, that has nothing to do with it. Rockgrabber (12/01/00; 23:00:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 42656) Goldumber Randy@the tower is it not horrible feeling when you are doing nothing but a huge favor, and an idiot comes around and attacts you cause you are harm to his perception of wealth obtention. You have done me a great favor in keeping and obtaining my wealth, and in the future will have helped me so much I feel already much in debt to your access of info you have elected to share. Anyways you know who is doing good for gold. Mr Gresham (12/01/00; 21:55:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42655) Derivatives http://www.derivativesstrategy.com/magazine/ I don't know... do _you_ want to spend some time wrapping your brain around some jargon and mindset of the derivatives crowd? Given that it's the infantilely-handled nitroglycerine that will blow up easiest, you might want to keep it on your screen... just don't let it spoil a good physical night's sleep. RAP (12/01/00; 21:44:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42654) numismatic coin definition http://law2.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t29t32+2111+32++%28ira%20bullion%29%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 There has been a lot of discussion on what defines a numismatic coin. This is an excerpt from the US Code which defines the Gold eagles as numismatic, according to the US congress. CITE- 31 USC Sec. 5112 01/05/99-EXPCITE- TITLE 31 - MONEY AND FINANCE SUBTITLE IV - MONEY CHAPTER 51 - COINS AND CURRENCY SUBCHAPTER II - GENERAL AUTHORITY(i)(1) Notwithstanding section 5111(a)(1) of this title, the Secretary shall mint and issue the gold coins described in paragraphs (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection (a) of this section, in quantities sufficient to meet public demand, and such gold coins shall -(A) have a design determined by the Secretary, except that thefifty dollar gold coin shall have -(i) on the obverse side, a design symbolic of Liberty; and(ii) on the reverse side, a design representing a family of eagles, with the male carrying an olive branch and flying above a nest containing a female eagle and hatchlings;(B) have inscriptions of the denomination, the weight of thefine gold content, the year of minting or issuance, and the words ‘’Liberty’’, ‘’In God We Trust’’, ‘’United States of America’’, and ‘’E Pluribus Unum’’; and (C) have reeded edges.(2)(A) The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under this subsection to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses).(B) The Secretary shall make bulk sales of the coins minted under this subsection at a reasonable discount.(3) For purposes of section 5132(a)(1) of this title, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.The silver eagle and the states quarters are included in numismatic items in other sections of this code. YGM (12/01/00; 21:36:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42653) Mr. Goldhunter..... Keep your faith..... I for one ain't interested....you said...He would have you believe that Comex players are on their way to the poor house or worse...be cheated or somehow loose their wealth...*****No, no one ever lost wealth in paper before...Give me a break. The rules change everyday.....Better to have faith in Physical in hand than paper in somebody else's.....AND not that he needs defending but Randy has given some of the best concise advice and opinions these Halls have seen, so I for one will always listen to him, not some flamer from left field!....Good luck in the paper market...No Manipulation either...I BET....Ha!'GO GATA' 'GO GOLD' 'GO PHYSICAL' YGM (12/01/00; 21:20:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 42652) MR!....Holtzman The Sensibilities of your post... made my day...Thank you....YGM goldhunter (12/01/00; 21:12:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 42651) tedw...reply Hi tedw...This is what I recall:The rules were changed in the marketplace but not because of COMEX...2 gold mining companies, one starts with A... the other starts with C... got caught with large hedge positions that rapidly went against them as the price of gold (both futures and physical) started to soar because of the Washington agreement.In about 4 days the gold price (and call options) soared...gold rallied to about $335 (from memory) and the calls and coins were on fire too...All of a sudden something crazy happened...some DEAL was made whereby these two companies were given some special consideration...They didn't have to meet their "margin calls" with their counter-party buillion bankers (NOT at the Comex exchange)...The price of gold turned on a dime, option premiums fell out of bed, and the HUGE volume upside became crazy HUGE volume downside as the longs bailed out...Your story isn't an isolated incident...But it was due to an extra-ordinary change to accomodate these couple gold mining companies...I think I recall some foreign countries making emergency gold available to the cash/leasing marketplace too...It would have been great to have the gold price keep going...The difference between your $250 price and $600 or even $800 per option may have only been a couple hours or a day at best...it was a VERY volatile couple of days...Had we made it closer to your strike price of $400, you would have done MUCH better...We never hit $340...which is my current price level opinion of a decent break-out. Hill Billy Mitchell (12/01/00; 21:02:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 42650) justamereBear @ # 42620 Sir JBear:You are correct:I assume that world trade will continue. I assume that there are powerful forces involved in a long-term concerted effort to eliminate the US$ as the world currency. I assume that a currency war in underway. I assume that one of the two alliances will win the war and that world trade will proceed. World trade has not been interrupted in at least 300 years. Much upheaval has appeared on the scene in the last 300+ years. Trade as we know it has come to a halt in certain locations at various times because of the upheavals yet world trade has continued and continued only because currencies were available lubricate the transactions.Should the US$ be brought down I would expect that trade as we know it in the US may very well shift to barter mode for a while but world trade, though at an abbreviated level, would proceed and the new third world nation ( the USA) would gradually participate in world trade yet never again with the hegemony it enjoys today.Of course my assumptions are not facts and I do not mean to imply that they are so. Your point is well taken.HBM goldhunter (12/01/00; 20:43:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42649) Mr. Journeyman...hello Your question is the most important oneexcept for : When?Why, if we have more physical demand than supply, is the price falling or so low?Maybe there is a large faction holding the gold price down (GATA supposition) by selling endless paper/physical/leasing.Maybe we don't have as much yearly demand as we have supply...Economic theory tells us that supply and demand will reach an equilibrium with the variable being price...if the demand is too high, prices rise...if the supply is too high, prices fall.Since 1980 all-time-high, the price has been in a long term down trend...if it's SIMPLY supply/demand, then maybe the answer is all the selling (supply) going on by central banks and the like...But, SOMEBODY is buying all that gold too...The buyer thinks he can sell for more in the future...Time will tell...Your question, where will the extra gold come from? The market price today is already telling me there is extra gold in the marketplace.My opinion though is that perception could change very quickly in gold...we could see a gap up of 50 or 100 dollars some Monday morning, and the bottom is in...Major Bottom.I'm not smart enough to know any answers...I wish I was. I would share them with USA, G.E., and K..Co and this bull would get in gear.I did say a few days ago, that if gold was "consumable" like oil is, (no large world-wide stock-pile) that gold would probably be several thousands per oz.Supply/demand analysis has worked well in energy the past 18 months...If your premise is right: more physical demand than supply in the gold market, There is something fishy in the gold market.One more thing, India has seasonal demand (their wedding season),and, they and China are VERY price conscious...If the price spikes up too far, they stop buying...I wish I knewthe right answer, and I wish I knew "WHEN" Canuck (12/01/00; 20:43:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 42648) Good find Voyager Nice reminder of what's happening around us while we stare straight ahead.I was channel surfing on the tube the other night and fell upon that freak who locked himself in the ice block for 3 days. Okay so he's doing what he has to do. He's a weirdo trying to kill himself, that's his problem. The part of the equation that I can't fathom is the American lust to have this guy set up in the middle of Time Square, 'media-ize' this thing to death and show the miraculous escape on prime time.What is the purpose of this? What is there to gain by having this freak on prime time TV demonstrating to every wided-eyed kid that acting like a freak is a huge 'draw'?On a different but related note.On the evening of Nov.7th we witnessed the media 'blow' the call in Florida. The media botched their election coverage and as an experiment I carefully followed the newspaper coverage over the next couple weeks looking for comments regarding the irresponsible behavior of the major networks. Comments ranged from the premature victory calls to the outrageous, presumptious, irresponsible election coverage by the TV networks. The theme however was uniform; the media is out of control. Statistics are statistics and those surveys that are correct within 5%, 19 out of 20 times caught the networks with their pants down. Yes, they caught the 5% the one time and they were WRONG.The coverage of the ICEMAN is wrong. Let's look at this FREAK ICEMAN a little closer. First, he's using this dorkish ploy to atract attension, ultimately for bucks. I don't care. He's playing odds of living or dying staying for some 61 hours inside a 6 tonne cube of ice. Again I don't care. Incidentally, I don't want the guy to die but hey, if he dies he won't pull that stunt again. Second, do I want to watch this bullsnot on television. No, I don't want to watch some fool die on TV trapped inside a block of ice. Third, my 10, 12 and 13 year old children should not be allowed to watch this crap. If this guy lives 'he's a hero.' No, he is not a hero, he is a dork, a FREAK. So here is my point. I didn't watch ICEMAN, I didn't like it and I don't see the point. I cannot come to any positive out of it and I do not understand why this is on the air.And that is the point my man, it WAS on prime time and the networks DID make a big to-do out of it. It WAS watched and the next day it WAS in the papers. The media after the screwed up election coverage ARE televising the post-election madness to death. It IS what America wants. I'm from Canada and I would like to think that the 'mounties' would arrest a nutbar like ICEMAN, 30 days of 'accessment'. We follow the US and are a couple months to a couple years behind in most aspects but we are in perfect steplock with our neighbours. It's getting scary out there, I am worried for our US friends. The image of ICEMAN breaking out of a block of ice (while on national television) seems so 'American'. I hope Americans change this image that they portray to others and/or I hope we don't follow.Canuck. tedw (12/01/00; 20:42:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 42647) The Comex http://www.usagold.com I want to enter into the fray regarding the Comex.When the Washington Agreement was announced I made $50,000in paper profits. Being relatively inexperienced, $45000 of those profits evaporated. At the time of the Placer Dome rise, I made another $10000 or so. However, I do feel I was cheated by the Comex exchange. During the run up after the Washington Agreement, the Comex arbitrarily changed the rules and said you could not sell options at a price but had to trade them at market (not even knowing what that was). A friend of mine put in a sell order when Dec $400 gold calls last traded at $800, and his broker sold them at "market" and got him $250 or so. He was cheated.What I percieved at that time was that the Comex changed the rules when the big boys were in trouble.The Comex is regulated,but it is mostly self-regulated. All that being said, I still believe that options offer tremendous leverage at low risk that you cannot find anyplace else. But you certainly shouldnt gamble with any money you arent willing to part with. Based on past performance, a rapid run up in gold and silver will probably again see the Comex changing the rules to favor the big boys to some extent.Isnt that true Goldhunter? RossL (12/01/00; 20:28:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42646) rephrase that last post http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm I have sold gold coins at a gain. <!> And numismatic coins on certain internet auction sites. RossL (12/01/00; 20:19:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 42645) paper, metal I have not "lost money" on gold coins. I can truthfully say that I have never sold one. I have traded some bullion coins for certified numismatic gold coins, and that worked out to be a good trade at the time about 4 years ago. I have lost money on paper contracts. I will not lose any more on paper. Journeyman (12/01/00; 20:16:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 42644) Where will the extra gold come from? @goldhunter Hi goldhunter!It's fairly well documented that there is an excess of PHYSICAL demand over PHYSICAL supply in the CIRCULATING gold markets globally.Where will the "extra" gold come from to meet this demand (like in India, Indonesia, etc.)? Will the Central Banks dishoard or allow their leased gold to be written off?Or do you dispute the goldbug supply-demand disharmony?Regards,Journeyman MarkeTalk (12/01/00; 20:13:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 42643) French citizens ready to run to gold? Here is something to ponder other than the rhetoric surrounding the election circus/drama in the Sunshine State. Friend of the firm, Leonard Kaplan at Prospector Asset Managment, brought this to our attention today. He found it in one of Britain's newspapers, The Daily Telegraph. It appears that 75% of the 500-franc notes and 20% of the 200-franc notes are out of circulation. Using today's exchange rates, this computes to about U.S.$20 billion. Where on earth could this money possibly be? Most likely stuffed away in the mattress. Now with the coming conversion to the Euro, much of this "black market" money could find its way into other markets. I suspect that some, perhaps most of this money, has never been taxed. What better way for the French government to "surface" the underground economy than to require all conversions of French currency into Euros be reported. Lots of extra tax revenue. So according to Mr. Kaplan, some of this money will be converted into something not traceable---GOLD. We here at Centennial believe that the French people will look to their own French coins of a bygone era, i.e. French Roosters and French Angels and will begin buying them en masse. Because the supply coming out of Europe is so limited, any additional buying pressure (such as this scenario) will cause the premiums to jump considerably. I am reminded of the times in October 1997 and 1998 when the world experienced a financial crisis first in Asia, South America and then later in Russia that it became nearly impossible to obtain pre-1933 gold coins from Europe until the crisis was resolved--thanks to Alan Greenspan. Will we be so lucky next time around? From the looks of Wall Street and the European bourses, I say not. Wall Street has just lost $3 trillion of market capitalization in the past two months. The bear market has come out of the closet and is mauling everything in sight. As soon as he is done with the NASDAQ, he will feast on the S&P500 and finally the DOW.In short: sales in key sectors of the economy are dropping, revenues are dropping; thus earnings are way below expectations. Chart patterns look horrible and are tracing out the typical bear-market scenario. Now add to this mix the fact that tax receipts have fallen far short of expenditures and the fact that the Fed is pumping billions into the banking system to avoid collapse. Just in first 20 days of the month of November the federal debt increased by $18 billion! So much for paying down the national debt. This number comes to us compliments of Fed watcher and friend of the firm, Adrian Van Eck, whose newsletter is just superb! So the bottom line here? The time for gold has arrived. We have received numerous phone calls from the stock market refugees who have escaped with some of their principal intact. We expect to see more movement into gold as a safe haven in the coming financial storm. This is a good time to buy gold or add to existing positions before stocks take another nosedive and foreigners trash the U.S. Dollar as they move their money back home. goldhunter (12/01/00; 20:09:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42642) Hey Randy @the Tower... I certainly hope you know more about the number of elbows you have than you know about Comex futures trading...your knowlege of at least one of these subjects is severly lacking...Good night. Journeyman (12/01/00; 20:06:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 42641) Re: Anarchy @ET (12/01/00; 18:20:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42629) Hi ET!Thanx for the link. The guy wouldn't completely convince me -- but he's on the right track to dis-mything government!!Regards & thanx, j. goldhunter (12/01/00; 20:00:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42640) Mr. Ross L. You are partially right...The Comex exchange does have hedgers (bullion banks, mines, etc.) and speculators too...And some (mostly the longs) have lost money as have almost every coin holder in the past years, because we are near historical lows...When the trend changes, the longs (both coin holders and futures holders) will make lots of money...My statements have been such that we are all team-mates (all of us bull mkt folks) and our fortunes rise and fall together. I will go on record (again) that when this bull trend gets going (over $340?) that the futures market bulls might be very helpful to us because large funds/speculators may be piling in at the same time hedgers are buying back their shorts...It would certainly help if the hedgers started today or soon...It would send a great signal to the marketplace...If you're truly interested in a market, you may choose to look at as much of the market as possible...futures (paper) is a very large part of our global economy...and they're (probably) not going away any time soon...The largest players (both hedge and specs) as well as small ones are involved.My posts are meant to offer some balance as to what goes on here because this is a wonderful forum with exceptional talent, and folks deserve not only opinions, but facts.I have not tried to advise you...you're not interested...alot of people aren't. But watch futures and coins move together...both ways...influenced by a variety of fundamental and technical factors.Read or listen to your choice of information. Please be able to tell the differences of fact and fiction. More knowlege is better for all of us.Good luck to you. Randy (@ The Tower) (12/01/00; 19:58:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 42639) Having a bad day, goldhunter? Your premise regarding my position is distinctly invalid, and you could not know the truth of the matter, therefore the basis for your rant demands to be called into question. Furthermore, as you have expressed no indication of an understanding the the wider "infrastructure" to which I refer, particularly as it relates to such specific unsustainable and "collapsable" elements, I must say that your general message is corrupted by your shallow comprehension--though I do appreciate the depth of your apparent emotion. I hope that works to your advantage somewhere. Perhaps, as the lessons of life bring you more insight, wisdom, and communication skill, I may find that dialogue with you is something worth my while. But for now, I have more pressing matters to attend to, such as counting my elbows, relatively speaking. (I may stand on my head on occasion, but certainly not about these matters.) RossL (12/01/00; 19:35:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 42638) goldhunter (#42627) Goldhunter says: "He would have you believe that Comex players are on their way to the poor house or worse...be cheated or somehow loose their wealth..."So, goldhunter is not advocating anything or talking his book. Just trying to imply that there is nothing wrong with promoting that the readers of internet sites speculate on paper contracts against major international banks and hedge funds. Speculating on paper contracts instead of spending their spare cash on the consistent everlasting value of circular beautiful golden objects of definite intrinsic value. ET (12/01/00; 19:19:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 42637) Doug Noland http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htm From the article;"In an orderly and almost methodical fashion, the alarming march progresses directly into financial crisis both domestically and internationally. And quite distressingly similar to the domino collapse in SE Asian 1997 and Russia/LTCM in 1998, there appears little understanding or appreciation for what is unfolding either in the marketplace or within the regulatory community. Denial reins. Yesterday evening on CNBC former Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Alan Blinder, stating what we assume is the consensus view within the Fed and economic community, claimed "we are very far away from a financial crisis in the United States." We hope he is correct, but we do see it differently. Actually, our analysis tells us that we are at the cusp of severe financial crisis with little hope for it to be averted – the "wheels are in motion." Quite simply, the financial and economic excesses have been too great and the damage monumental, and there is today simply no way around the consequences. One of the more cogent comments we have heard recently came from CNBC's Ron Insana who stated that the present environment is similar to the 1998 crisis, with the U.S. this time at the "epicenter." ET (12/01/00; 18:59:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 42636) Joe Stromberg http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=555&FS=Legitimacy From the article;"There may be an analogy here with the process of hyper-inflation. Cutting back on the money supply after a hyper-inflation is under way, will no more save a discredited currency than putting in a Unity Government of non-controversial fellows in gray suits will save a discredited regime. Once people have seen through the veil of illusions, all bets are off. As Paul Cantor has written, inflation may well be the leitmotiv of the 20th century. "When things are going well for states, we find a happy alliance of Court Intellectuals and political wirepullers. It is the role of these intellectuals to explain that the state's rulers are noble, heroic, and caring, and that their actions - however self-serving they may seem to be - are actually aimed at the general happiness of everyone. So-called Social Science plays a part here. "As Rothbard put it: "The increasing use of scientific jargon has permitted the State's intellectuals to weave obscurantist apologia for state rule that would have only met with derision by the populace of a simpler age. A robber who justified his theft by saving that he really helped his victims, by his spending giving a boost to retail trade, would find few converts; but when this theory is clothed in Keynesian equations and impressive references to the ‘multiplier effect,’ it unfortunately carries more conviction. And so the assault on common sense proceeds, each age performing the task in its own ways." Further: "Thus, ideological support being vital to the State, it must unceasingly try to impress the public with its ‘legitimacy,’ to distinguish its activities from those of mere brigands." goldhunter (12/01/00; 18:54:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42635) @ RossL... I'm not advising you to do anything at all...unlike Randy @the tower...I'm just not interested in false statements being endorsed by folks at this site...and neither should you...If people REALLY don't know what REALLY goes on at the Comex Exchange, they should either ask, find out, or keep quiet. CERTAINLY They should NOT make something up...See previous Comex discussions: Goldhunter, Zenaida, Randy @the Tower... beesting (12/01/00; 18:51:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42634) Hi Mr. Goldhunter, http://www.crbindex.com/conspecs/nymex/contractsd.htm#Gold Futures A few weeks ago I asked you if I could pledge my Gold for future delivery, and hold my Gold in my own safe deposit box. Your answer was yes to both questions.Since that time I have located the above URL at Comex which states it a little differently.I don't want to get involved in your discussion with Randy, on a subject that would never be resolved.(Merits of Physical Gold over Paper Gold as I am biased)But let the forum consider this:Randy is paid by the sales of physical Gold.You, Sir Goldhunter, are paid through the sales of "paper" Gold.Below is from the above URL concerning storage and delivery of Comex Gold.Thanks for your posts, all of us team mates are getting better educated on the world of Gold as time progresses.....beesting.[Snip]<<Delivery: Gold delivered against the futures contract must bear a serial number and identifying stamp of a refiner approved and listed by the Exchange. Delivery must be made from a depository located in the Borough of Manhattan, New York City, licensed by the Exchange.>>[Unsnip] RossL (12/01/00; 18:47:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 42633) goldhunter - "blasphemy" ???? It's been shown repeatedly that 80% to 90% of small specs on the COMEX lose their shirts. My assertion is that most of the people who read this forum should heed Randy's advice over that of goldhunter.The COMEX and thousands of commodities brokers depend on small specs losing their shirts on a regular basis. goldhunter (12/01/00; 18:41:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 42632) Semantics: @ Comex If I may...At the Comex Exchange, The short seller issues delivery notices...He/she/they are DELIVERING physical gold to the long that stops delivery by remaining long into the delivery period...But, the short determines WHEN the long gets the gold...Most likely, the short is a mine, bank, or other large holder that for any number of reasons wants "off" of 100 oz. per contract delivered.Most likely, the long is an end user of the physical gold, a large speculator that wants the physical gold, OR a newbie spec with a broker that is asleep!Hope this helps...Mr. Randy is incorrect on the previous post...The bank was delivering physical gold... ET (12/01/00; 18:38:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 42631) Ryan McMaken http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/mcmaken5.html From the article;"Here in modern America, we face the same problem. The politics, values, and religion of the Southern, Western, and rural people of America are not like those in the coastal cities. Secessionists do not seek to overturn the government in Washington, or to destroy the governments of Massachusetts, New York, and California. What we wish to do, is to avoid the radicalization that urban leftists wish to force on us. It is they who wish to revolutionize and to destroy. It is they who want to put an end to our churches, our private schools, our local governments, and our civic organizations. They wish to sweep away traditional American culture and traditional American institutions. "For generations now, compromise has regularly amounted to a leftist victory. This is not a battle that can be won. They have the advantage in numbers and self-righteous rhetoric. Like the Colonists who fought to preserve their British liberties, modern Americans should consider their "American liberties" and examine how they have changed in the last generation. If any vestige of these liberties are to be preserved in the long run, it must be saved now. "We are approaching the time when as Jefferson wrote, "it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another." To dismiss secession as radical and dangerous will only allow the true radicalization of all America. For you patriots who value "America," remember that America stands for something other than the Army and the Navy and lines on a map. If America does not protect liberty, then it has ceased to be America. Secession is an effort to protect those liberties and institutions that make us Americans. It is truly the moderate choice." Randy (@ The Tower) (12/01/00; 18:29:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42630) Hi Zenidea...a comment, if I may I have read your repost of GATA commentary and have come to the conclusion, based on an apparent difference in perception, that either that commentator or myself is standing on his head.From your repost:"As far as the gold deliveries go, Gold Cartel member Deutsche Bank delivered 3500 contracts out of a total 4405 contracts."As I have been reporting on this over the last two days, I would alter this sentence in a small but meaningful way in keeping with what I have reported. It makes a big difference! Try this..."Deutsche Bank delivered NOTICE OF REQUEST FOR PHYSICAL SETTLEMENT on 3500 contracts out of a total 4405 contracts SO REQUESTING....WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT SUCH REQUESTS ARE BY GENERALLY BY PARTIES WANTING TO ***RECEIVE*** GOLD FOR SETTLEMENT."I find it distinctly beyond reasonable credibility that Duetsche bank (or anybody of size and importance) would seek to close a short COMEX position with a request to make physical delivery. Again and to be sure, delivery intentions, where they occur as a tiny subset of all voluminous COMEX trade, are typically the longs asking for the gold, not the shorts trying to get rid of metal. It is my impression that this is characteristic of what Deutsche bank has done...asked for gold. Or to put another way, they "got them some", with due respect.Rather changes the whole outlook, does it not? (Or am I the one caught viewing the world up-side-down? You decide...or else we can let time do it for us!) ET (12/01/00; 18:20:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42629) Journeyman http://www.lewrockwell.com/murphy/murphy19.html Hey Journeyman - thought you and others might enjoy. From the article;"Before proceeding, I ask the reader to indulge me in a brief digression. People often chide me for calling myself an anarchist, rather than a libertarian. The term anarchy conjures up images of atheist nuts who go around throwing bombs. Wouldn't it be much more palatable to make appeals for liberty, rather than for anarchy? "Sure it would; but I'm not running for class president. (I tried that once. I had the funniest posters an eighth-grader ever designed, and I posted them in the bathroom, where everyone would be sure to see! The other kids peed on them. I didn't win. Is that why I'm so bitter?)" schippi (12/01/00; 17:55:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 42628) Gold Indexes Chart http://www.SelectSectors.com/goldindx.gif Looking Good! goldhunter (12/01/00; 17:53:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 42627) More "blasphemy" from Randy... The following quotation has been published from this guy Randy at the tower THREE DAYS IN A ROW:". Buy into the gold, not the specific elements of the infrastructure which is poised to collapse" Why? How come? Why does he feel he needs to wear out his keyboard with such NONSENSE? Oh right...he gets his daily "bread" from the "home office"He would have you believe that Comex players are on their way to the poor house or worse...be cheated or somehow loose their wealth...Don't buy it folks...He is wrong, and has been for the last years...his story is the same old song with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE to back up any FICTION he's posting about the Comex Futures Exchange!I think others should send a message to STOP the fiction...it doesn't play very well here or anywhere for that matter.The EVIDENCE is that the Comex exchange has again offered both commercial traders and speculator traders a regulated exchange to lay off risk (hedgers) to the risk takers (speculators). Some have made money, some have lost money...same as coin buyers... NO ONE has been cheated and the Exchange will AGAIN open on Monday...Stop spreading fear or worse...Tell the TRUTH Randy or turn off your machine...your nonsense about " collapse " is not appreciated by people that know what they're talking about. CoBra(too) (12/01/00; 17:40:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 42626) Mr. Holtzman - Thank you for a ... ... well balanced essay of main world topics in a nutshell - Mr. Holtzman- and since you put it so well and eloquently - I feel a little inadequate to comment. In particular, because I do agree with your premises. And while I do have a differentiated "feeling" about the phenomenon (not you, though some) termed conspiracies, I would like to go back to recent history. As we all are aware, this phenomenal (stock-) market performance started in 1982 - after 15 y's of drought, heightened by 2 oil shocks and run-away inflation - Oct. 1987 marked a first and almost disastrous crash of financial assets. As it happened Mr. Al Greenspan, only 2 months in offce, was called upon in order to ameliorate theaftershocks of a later dubbed as a computer-crash, due to tying the mutual fund performance to indices (indexing, or was it insurance), of the then "brilliant" performers of the fund industry? Well, AG did the right thing at the time and reliquified any and every investment bank and broker ( a distinction, now long lost, though since 1929 a prerequisite) in distress. Furthermore, it was still in Reagan's regency, that a special financial presidential team (now dubbed PPT or TPTB) was founded, in order to avoid similar meltdowns,under the pretext of systemic risk avoidance. The old and secretive (ESF) Exchange Stabilisation Fund may haave been mis-used, as major evidence points towards this direction. Anyway, as I said, Mr. Holtzman, no conspiracy there, only, I fear, intervention, distortion and manipulation of "free" market fundamentals of (paper) supply vs (real) demand. And The Powers There Be, may see - the woods - not a tree, nor the roots - of thee economee - kind regards- cb2 histres (12/01/00; 17:20:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 42625) Sea recovery of gold I look for investors to recover a shipment of gold of US $230 millions. Zenidea (12/01/00; 17:14:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42624) From Gata Markets Collapse; Gold Cartel staring at Murphy's Law Something VERY strange is going on in silver. Very strange. The veteran silver pros on the floor can't figure it out. 1. ED& F Mann keeps selling and selling - more than 15,000 contracts - a huge position. 2. Goldman Sachs is now long 15,000 March $5 silver calls. 3. The silver delivery notices today were exceptionally heavy at 7,000 deliveries with Goldman Sachs issuing 6,547 of them. Our sources say 100% of the accounts that stayed long Dec silver going into first notice day were hit with deliveries. That is unusual. As far as the gold deliveries go, Gold Cartel member Deutsche Bank delivered 3500 contracts out of a total 4405 contracts. In other words, two of the three most visible "Hannibal Cannibals" delivered 75% to 90% of the silver and gold contracts on the Comex. Combine that with what else we know about the "concerted" price action, it anecdotally confirms the obvious once again that they are acting in a collusive way to try and hold down the prices of gold and silver. It is always Chase, Deutsche Bank and Goldman Sachs. No matter where we turn and whatever comes my way to report to the Cafe, they show up in a larger than life way. Let me elaborate a bit more on the psychology of the deliveries. What they are doing is trying to convince market participants that there is plenty of gold and silver around and that is the reason for the price weakness. It is an obnoxious, bravado play on their part. Meanwhile, Goldman Sachs must be a bit nervous about this play in silver because the shorts in silver are double the known available supply. My guess is that Goldman Sachs and the US are up to old tricks. In October 1999, I received information about the potential gold physical squeeze in August 1999. The Fed called a brokerage firm (such as Refco) and told them not to worry about clients concerned about receiving delivery - that the Fed would guarantee that all clients would get any desired gold. At the same time, the Fed requested that this Refco type firm not bother Goldman Sachs about their delivery intentions. That was the first specific insight GATA received regarding US Government involvement in the gold market. The best way to alleviate suspicion of gold price manipulation and the orchestration of an artificially low gold price was to bury the price of silver. To make it not look too much like a Goldman Sachs operation, it would be par for the course that an account would be set up at a firm like Mann. It is not necessary to get it into all the details, but this type of Gold Cartel scheme is consistent with sophisticated Cabal tactics. Who knows what could happen to the price in silver at any point in time. Hence, Goldman Sachs took protection by buying the March silver calls. That does not mean that Goldman Sachs is doing the silver play just for themselves, although they could be. They could very easily be carrying out this continuing capping of the gold and silver price in behalf of the US Government. What about the Treasury and Fed denials about any manipulation of the prices of gold and silver (You mean like the Clinton and Nixon public denials)? It is all about "is type" semantics. Goldman Sachs, Chase and Deutsche Bank could very well be carrying out the gold/silver scheme for themselves, the rest of the Cartel and the US Government, "with the US secretly guaranteeing their positions, meaning guaranteeing the bullion dealers against market losses. That way the government is not "actually" doing the trading itself, but stands by the Gold Cartel's silver and gold operations, just like they stand by their own Treasury Bonds. Today, Goldman Sachs was seen aggressively buying March silver futures. Is the Gold Cartel about to run for hills reverse course on silver? Hard to say, but one clue will be the Comex Warehouse silver stocks. Icarus, Café super snoop, pointed out that after being unchanged for weeks, they were reported after the close to be down 505,000 ounces to 95, 717,000 ounces. Normally, the silver warehouse stocks would go up before first notice if heavy heavy deliveries ensued. The fact that that they did not this time may mean the silver short Cabal game is over - that they have run out of physical silver that they can tap to continue the ruse. If the silver stocks continue to go down in the days to come, look out, for it probably does mean that price of silver could fly - especially if Goldman Sachs keeps buying to cover their shorts sent over to ED & F Mann. That would leave them long the March $5 calls. And of course, GS - thieves that they are - will make a fortune with their silver calls, if silver skyrockets. Randy (@ The Tower) (12/01/00; 16:46:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 42623) RossL, thank you for the comments There is no knowing with certainty how varioius trades were settled, but a most natural sequence of events following the line of explantion I have laid out in previous post is this.On this notion of passing the buck, please recall that the newly established long positions would have had to been put in place yesterday (after the parties had been tapped with gold delivery obligations) priot to the issuing of the 966 delivery notices today. And you will also recall that in this "pass the buck scramble", which would have occurred yesterday, we did in fact see the price get chased higher by three dollars.You have hit the nail on the head where you said about today "a significant seller appeared on the scene to quench any price rise". While price discovery for gold occurs based on this COMEX trade, if must now be appreciated by everyone that the active contract is now the February contract, which can now be sold (as you indicate) with impunity prior to January 31. And the parade continues...until the wheels fall off as described in prior posts.Though this COMEX business is just one small element of a bigger picture, we are all wise to understand the various and interrelated elements soas to confidently take advantage of this unsustainable infrastructure which delivers gold to us at these bargain prices. Buy into the gold, not the specific elements of the infrastructure which is poised to collapse. RossL (12/01/00; 16:19:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 42622) Randy (@ The Tower)-COMEX delivery: Round Two http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm It seems that the 966 "pass the buck" delivery notices were met with falling prices this morning, meaning that a significant seller appeared on the scene to quench any price rise due to the physical demand. I wonder who that was. Also, I'm still wondering about who ED& F Mann is and why are they selling so many silver contracts. Their web page didn't give me much info (thanks Mr Gresham) but I didn't spend much time on it. Randy (@ The Tower) (12/01/00; 16:15:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42621) Thanks for the support, j-Bear. Here is glimpse at the currency component that's in the news today. http://www.hindubusinessline.com/stories/060233jc.htm HEADLINE: US economic slow down hits dollarThe article begins:"DATA released during the week showed that the 10-year US economic expansion is slowing down. ...led to a weakening of the US dollar. Added to this was the crash in the technology-laden Nasdaq index which fell by 23 per cent in November."Continuing:"The euro, deriving benefit from the dollar's slide, surged by 4.8 per cent against the greenback this week not because the euro-zone economics were doing better but because the dream expansion of the US economy seems to be slowing down. The euro also scored over the Japanese currency as political wrangles and a stream of bankruptcies in Japan depressed it against major currencies."The article covers many currency bases, including an assertion that Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan has advised ECB president Wim Duisenberg to take stronger steps to support the euro. Further, it indicates that Bank of France Governor Jean-Claude Trichet indicated that a strong euro is in the interests of Europe, a view that was shared not only by other members of the ECB governing council, but also by Finance Ministers of the other countries in euroland.What the article does not touch on, but equally important to consider, is that in the mid-term past, while other currencies have weakened dramatically against the dollar, the foreign holders of US dollar-denominated investments could happily endure flat or even slightly declining asset performance. They would, after all, still come out ahead throught the exchange rates when cashing out and repatriating their funds in local currency. But as the dollar slips, this tolerance for anemic asset performance simply will not prevail. If/when a clear trend of dollar weakness takes root in popular investor perception, we may likely be amazed at the amount of foreign held U.S. assets (stocks, bonds, etc) that will be suddenly hitting the streets...something that will likely aggravate the weakening dollar in a vicious circle. justamereBear (12/01/00; 15:47:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 42620) Holtzman Jorneyman Hill Billy Mitchell The Hoople The Hoople.Your wry thoughts in one of your posts yesterday made me laugh out loud. Loved it.HoltzmanA superb job in dealing with complex subjects. As POGO once said "the enemy is us", and we are all blinkered (some more so than others) by our own beliefs. Thank you for taking the time to compose and share.Hill Billy Mitchell 42551In your post you say that "if trade is to continue", you assume trade is so desireable that it will continue in its present form. If one assumes that trade continues in its present form, then it may well be that some form of medium of exchange will be required. However I am cynical enough that I believe that reason will NOT prevail, particularly in the short term. Trade may not prevail in its present form, since such ideas are not "engraved in stone".Hi Journeyman. 42606 42547On balance I agree with at LEAST 95% of what you post. However, my personality is such that I enjoy debating "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin". When you say that the economic plunge is better from 10,000 feet than the stratosphere, I must respond that as a sometime pilot, I can assure you that a plunge from either altitude without a parachute is equally fatal. Admittedly the stratospheric plunge may well be a bit more messy. (strangely enough there is a terminal velocity, due to air friction, that would limit the speed of either plunge to about the same impact speed.) Moreover I suspect that Greenspan is trying to do essentially that, lower the altitude. Good marks for intention, but the patient is very likely to die. But then, I have been "premature" in my "demise" forcasts since Feb 1987, so why would anyone pay attention to what I say. There was a long post that appeared in my mind, combining elements of your, and Hill Billy Mitchell's posts, that I felt strongly about. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have been swamped with work recently, and I had neither the time nor energy to write it up. Never the less, while I fear that Wolavkas dire mutterings may be accurate, I hope he is wrong, because I have a wad of fiat likely incoming, that I have a job for.But like your 42606, while I may have some small philosophical differences, they are not serious enough to detract from the main thrust. Keep it up.Best regardsj'Bear LeSin (12/01/00; 15:38:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 42619) Gold - Yuan - "Clarity of Thought" - from "SDRer" @ Kitco has a Handle on This Thank you "SDRer" for sharing Date: Fri Dec 01 2000 13:33SDRer (Forthecraic-Unhappily, this is not as straight line as we would have it.) ID#246299:Copyright © 2000 SDRer/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved[As gold monetists would have it.] There is a great deal to be untangled in the international monetary reformation. BIS says 2004 will mark what they call the "steady state". When I first went down to the root cellar [akin to "going to the mattresses"] I was not too far along in my tunneling before it became apparent that the "sequestered yuan" was a very [VERY] important component in the aligning to the metals standard. It is impossible to overstate role the yuan is now playing in its sequestered state; so, convertibility is not around the next corner. One is tempted to speculate that they would regard it as "prudent" to have the sequestered yuan in place for at least six months after the Euro hits the streets? It will be something like this: fiat for domestic use, gold for international unit of account, six months to a year gold reserves cover GDP, the functions of money split between fiat and gold. The demand for gold will be on the rise, as the New Rules become public-that is, gold held as a store of wealth [savings] not taxed and invulnerable to political assaults [in civilized countries]. Hi-Hat (12/01/00; 15:26:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 42618) wolavka.........next step CONTRABAND Voyager (12/01/00; 14:59:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 42617) A GOOD TIME TO BE SLEEPING WITH GOLD UNDER THE PILLOW NewsMax.com Lost Out There in the Chads John L. Perry Nov. 26, 2000 ". . . we're lost out here in the stars, little stars, big stars, blowing through the night, and we're lost out here in the stars . . . ."– Kurt Weill* * *While the greatest people on Earth were obsessed with chads – hanging, pregnant, virgin and dimpled – the rest of the world was not, and it's horrifying.Most of the American press has been prepossessed with which presidential candidate is up today, down tomorrow, and how . . . golly, gee . . . this has never happened before.The news media palpitations over punched and non-punched ballots have been enough to gag a maggot, and the nation is simply sick of it.It should be, for the confetti of chads has so chummed the press feeding frenzy that the conventional establishment media have allowed scarcely any other significant reportage to filter through.Just look at the worldwide events of importance that have gone missing amid the floor sweepings of chads littering the premises of the election boards:• IraqSaddam Hussein is busy building his own Persian Gulf alliance, intended to choke off America's oil supply.He has junked sanctions imposed on him, and is being abetted in the process by what should be America's allies in that region and in Europe.Meanwhile, he is doggedly replenishing his arsenal of biological and nuclear weapons, all aimed at the American people and their children.• RussiaIn utter economic ruin, strapped for cash, Valdimir Putin's Russia is selling arms to any nation angry enough to join a military cabal against the United States.Nothing is so dangerous as a vast nation, pushed to economic desperation, with a military losing patience and missile silos just waiting to be utilized.• Communist ChinaChina is investing everything it has in an all-out strategy to wage and win a war against the United States.Whatever it needs to achieve a modern war machine it steals or buys from a complicit Clinton-Gore administration or takes delivery from a Moscow catalog house.It is testing now to see if America will let it force Taiwan to return to prison.• Our MilitaryIt has been neglected by the Clinton-Gore administration to the point it cannot respond adequately to a two-front war.No longer is the United States militarily invulnerable. It is now an enticing invitation for attack.And there are determined enemies out there just nuts enough to give it a try.• Communist North KoreaHere's another case of economic desperation coupled with military might.Few inside the borders of the United States seem to understand that North Korea has one of the world's largest locked and loaded standing armies.• Global TerrorismThe USS Cole, the U.S. embassies in Africa and the World Trade Center are peanuts and just for openers.That crazy who's crouched in a cave out there in the Afghan mountains has no end of money or willing suicide terrorists at his disposal. And he absolutely loves what he's doing.• Arabs-IsraelisThey've been at it since Biblical days, so long engaged in mutual self-destruction they've forgotten who first struck whom.The peace process is a cruel hoax. It all may be beyond the ability of anyone to stave off a hideous war that will reach out far beyond the tiny confines of the Middle East.• India-PakistanThese neighbors have nuclear weapons aimed directly at one another, and it's another case of centuries of ethnic hatred and religious bigotry that shows no signs of abatement.If this one blows up, there's no way the United States can hide behind "Seinfeld" and "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?"• The BalkansThis Humpty Dumpty has not been sorted out and put together again.Despite the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's air assault, invasion and occupation of Yugoslavia, the locals are even further apart than before. Centuries of insoluble ethnic hatreds throughout the region are waiting to pick up right where they left off.It's only a matter of time, and not much of that.• NATO-European UnionThe only legitimate reason for NATO was to implant a bulwark around Western Europe against invasion by the old Soviet Union. That catalyst has disappeared, and with it NATO unity and purpose.NATO's economic and political counterpart, the European Union, is on the verge of disintegration, leaving the United States with no defensible base on the Continent.• The IrishDoes anyone seriously believe they will stop what they've been doing so long as any of them can remember? Who will bell this cat?• MexicoIt surges to spill over into the United States, and once that human tidal wave of poverty begins in earnest, there'll be no stopping the Mexicanization of the Southwest and California.The financial cost alone will emaciate American taxpayers.• Panama CanalThis is now a Communist China interest zone. It's but a baby step away from becoming a hostile military base in America's front yard.Sleep well, President James Monroe.• Drug CartelsThere is too much money at stake here to put these devils on a leash. They will soon have countries of their own.The only question is whether the United States has the will not to be among the number.• Latin AmericaThat entire continent teeters between abject poverty and potential consumerism.If Communist China chooses, it can become the major trading partner of what was once an American hemisphere.• Our Value-less EconomyThe American economy as it now stands is an illusion. Enough of its stocks being traded domestically and around the world are valueless beyond their own paper.There is no getting around the old economic necessity for real value having to reflect actual created wealth.• America's Under-CultureWith every passing day, the multitudes of Americans who are uneducated, unemployable and addicted to narcotics and/or government entitlement programs swell ever larger.No nation can survive forever a mass that feeds upon its body as a whole. America's continued existence is threatened by a human malignancy of monumental sadness.• Non-EducationMost Americans apparently believe their children are actually getting an education when they pack them off to public school.The rest of the industrialized world knows better, and is waiting for the education hour glass to run out in America.• AIDSIt is killing the continent of Africa, gaining ground in Europe and metastasizing in America.It's not the flu. So far, no one gets over it.• A Nation in DenialLook about you. How many Americans do you know are aware of those horrors haunting America?Or if they are aware, are they willing to face them squarely.Individuals go into terminal denial; so can nations.From Saddam Hussein to AIDS, America's worst enemies worldwide have not been idle during its distraction with chads.Their strongest ally is an America wasting time, failing to come to grips with realities that grant no grace room.The weeks eaten up with post-election myopia are extremely serious.Despite what Vice President Al Gore's handlers say about how he was sitting on ready for eight years to assume the presidency if called upon, despite whatever it is George W. Bush was doing, the truth is the next president has lost a crucial hunk of the precious two months allotted to put a transition administration in place.He will limp into the Oval Office horrifically ill-prepared to deal with instant crises or creeping catastrophes.He will be – indeed, is now – a sitting duck for any number of sinister surprise test-probes, even a latter-day Pearl Harbor.And while the magnificent foresight of the Founding Fathers has provided this most-fortunate of all nations with a constitutional compass out of a labyrinth of electoral contradictions, it offers no king's-X time out from getting real about what confronts a superpower with more enemies than friends.It is a test America could eventually fail, may well be failing.Talk about being lost out here in the stars. The hostile onslaughts awaiting America are already lost out there in the chads.They've not gone away. They've only grown meaner.John L. Perry, a prize-winning newspaper editor and writer who served on White House staffs of two presidents, is senior editor and a regular columnist for NewsMax.com.by John L. Perry justamereBear (12/01/00; 14:03:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42616) Randy@the Tower Your recent posts, particularly 42612, are likely some of the most significant posts I have seen on this forum. The only ones that come close are some of the oil supply analysis posts.May god bless us allj'Bear wolavka (12/01/00; 13:29:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 42615) inversion in almost all markets Something big is gonna happen over the week end:This pattern is extreme and explosive. Randy (@ The Tower) (12/01/00; 12:36:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 42614) COMEX delivery: Round Two Following yesterday's First Notice Day for delivery on the December gold futures in which 4,405 contracts where held up for delivery, this morining a bit of "pass the buck" set in with the issue of another 966 delivery notices, coming mostly from those parties that got tapped with delivery obligations yesterday. A bit of musical chairs, in which the easiest attempt to settle such an obligation for those with no gold to deliver is to pick up the necessary long positions in December gold contracts and then issue subsequent notice of delivery intentions (requests, actually) the following day.With these 966 contracts, it could be argued that we are seeing a representation of 3 tonnes chasing its own tail.Yesterday's COMEX trade reduced the open interest in these December contracts by 5,500 down to 2,700 to start today's action. Meanwhile, the open interest in February was actually reduced by 900 contracts, bringing the total to 74,600 as it has now become the most active contract. wolavka (12/01/00; 12:13:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 42613) anxious al he'll cut the flood gates of fiat, keep hammering the dollar now, watch commodites move higher. dec swiss next resistance 5850 Randy (@ The Tower) (12/01/00; 12:04:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 42612) A golden look at the September trade numbers released several days ago It has been my preference to monthly provide a review of the gold-related elements of each U.S. international trade report released from the Department of Commerce. I found it impossible to be everywhere at once two weeks ago when the report for September was released, but happily, I am able to look into the numbers for this overview today.September exports of goods and services totaled $92.4 billion, while imports reached $126.6 billion, resulting in the monthly trade deficit leaping ahead to $34.3 billion. This is an incredible $4.5 billion more than the revised deficit figure of $29.8 billion reported for August.Compared with the August figures, September exports were $0.6 billion less while imports were $3.8 billion more.** Getting to the gold **Seasonally adjusted figures in the report for September reveal that while the quantity of gold moving into foreign ownership (exports) in August was $324 million, September gold exports climbed to $510 million. To offer the meaningful element of this balance, I must also tell you that these export numbers for August and September exceeded our gold imports by $137 million and $282 million, respectively (for a net outflow of approx 32 tonnes in September alone (U.S. mining produces only 350 tonnes new gold annually)).Year-to-date gold exports through September have now climbed to $4.39 billion, whereas ytd imports have been only $2.06 billion, for a net outflow this year of $2.33 billion in gold (approx 260 tonnes).((This contrasts markedly with last year's year-to-date exports (through September) totaling $3.04 billion, that when compared to the offsetting imports yielded a net gold outflow of "only" $789 million (approx 90 tonnes) for the first three quarters of 1999.))In a brief flight of fancy, here is a physical consideration of the September 2000 trade deficit. Instead of balancing the import/export deficit by delivering pallets of printed dollars totaling $34.3 billion, if we were requested to physically balance the September trade figures with hard goods, and gold was chosen as the universally accepted medium of settlement, at today's prices it would require an additional 3,950 tonnes of gold just to settle the books against September's current trade imbalance. Of course, a much higher relative value for gold would more aptly manage such a task. I will leave it to you to mull over the possibilities and eventualities regarding this current untenable balance of trade situation. wolavka (12/01/00; 10:55:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 42611) next step MARTIAL LAW wolavka (12/01/00; 10:50:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42610) wheat is gonna go bye Journeyman (12/01/00; 10:48:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 42609) "Oil for food" is political b.s. @ALL Money is fungible -- one dollar is equivalent to every other dollar. That is, money is the ultimate commodity. Thus a dollar traded in a so-called "oil for food" scheme frees up dollars otherwise used for food to, say, build super-guns, biological weapons, etc.You CANNOT successfully earmark money input into particularly a hostile enterprise -- such an input simply frees-up other resources for other uses.Same observation goes for food stamps, etc. Now the money people previously had to spend on food is freed up for booze -- or education and computers. (Not to mention "black-market" food stamp trading.)These schemes are one more example of political b.s. and spinning.Regards,Journeyman Hard assets...Easy access (12/01/00; 10:46:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42608) Dutch Kings visit Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html We were able to secure a very small cache of these coins, and are therefore pleased to bring you this offer -- but the supply is limited, so act quickly to claim some of this kingly gold for your own--poignantly, from the same country that taught us the hard lesson of the tulipmania.And while viewing the link above, don't overlook the "Coin of the Month"...some table-busting gold coins from Sweden. At over a quarter ounce each, be careful where you place them! Mr Gresham (12/01/00; 10:37:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42607) Holtzman #42604 Amen, brother!And may the hornets get lost in the icy winds somewhere over Newfoundland (should they know which way to set out for Albion). Journeyman (12/01/00; 10:33:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 42606) Political analysis from Journeyman: Caveat emptor! @ALL Will the election chaos prove to be important? I've been watching politics with regards to the economy for a couple decades, but as I conclusively proved a few days ago, I'm often wrong. So, FWIW:Only a little over 100 million Americans bothered to vote, proving that about 170 million Americans didn't bother to vote, and these 170 million non-voters include the 100 million or so who were registered but still didn't bother to vote. Most Americans view political goings-on, particularly in DC, with suspicion and as a show beyond their control.Very few people I watched on TV were enthusiastic about either candidate, an observation supported by many posters at this site - - - and, surprisingly to me, many I talked to in my little mostly democratic town who also mirrored this un-enthusiastic attitude.Given there are few demonstrations one way or another around the country, and apparently no violent ones, I would tend to conclude that the 170 million who didn't vote continue to be largely uninvolved, and ditto even those who voted. Further this suggests to me that what emotions there are have to do with considerations of fairness and justice, not to do with enthusiasm for either bozo. This has implications, of course -- and since there is a certain emotional (and logical) merit on both sides of the "justice" and "fairness" arguments, it is very reasonable for both sides to dig-in and polarize. Because of this, the "fairness/justice" issue simply WILL NOT be resolved, especially at the emotional level, to the satisfaction of either side.How much of the resultant ill-feeling over justice and fairness will stick to the final winner? How long? To that extent, either man will be somewhat handicapped -- unless, like Clinton, they know how to largely ignore it, publically at least. But since the winner will be perceived as the "lesser of two evils," justice and fairness won't matter much - - - kind of like the Soviet Union vs. the IMAGE of USA. You know, the "What do you expect from 'The Evil Empire'?" kind of thing.Conclusion: Unless large numbers of people hit the streets around the country, this whole circus will remain just that - - an entertaining and diverting circus, all smoke and no fire. It will largely only effect the pols and government worshippers who take even such minutae of government seriously. However if people DO hit the streets in large numbers around the country (unlikely I think), it will be very difficult to resolve. Foreigners will or won't repatriate dollars depending on their perceptions. My guess is that it will be a minimal effect unless folks start hitting the streets, in which case it could be a major efffect.Final note: If the dollar survives the next six months to a year without major drop in value, it'll probably last a good deal longer. The reason I suggest this is that, as many writers point out, fiat is a creature of confidence and it's hard to imagine a stronger confluence of dollar-confidence-shaking events than those converging on it now.Regards,Journeyman beesting (12/01/00; 10:32:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 42605) Silly Math.....And what looks like a sure road to bankruptcy for Cambior. Thank You Sir Black Blade # 42582....Cambior Still not out of the Woods!From your post:[Snip]<<Cambior has an agreement with Credit Suisse First Boston, also a current lender, for a $55 million gold sale of 233,685 ounces over five years.>>[Unsnip]Comments:If we divide $55 million by 233,685 ounces I get $235.36 per ounce.Now if it currently costs somewhere between $260.00 and $280.00 after all expenses to produce an ounce of Gold, this loan generates an on going loss of <$25.00> to <$45.00> per ounce of Gold produced.....And costs should keep going up over the 5 year period(Inflation)!!!It also creates 2336.85 one hundred ounce contracts for Gold delivery over the next 5 years.These could be dumped at COMEX at any time, such as today when when the POG seems to be headed slightly down. Credit Suisse makes a profit at any amount over $235.36 per ounce.Anybody reading this get a better understanding of why the Gold mining industry is in "BIG" trouble?Bottom Line....Debt + Debt + Debt = More Debt, or Debt to the 3rd power! Shareholders Beware...They might try to come after you to help pay off debt!!!....beesting. Holtzman (12/01/00; 10:17:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 42604) Outsides, Insides, and Insights Holtzman here,--------------Tony Blair for President--------------We spend a lot of time here eagerly analysing the major players (ECB, BoE, Greenspan, etc.), but spend comparatively little time analysing our domestic grass roots players. We eagerly try to discern the gold-buying motivations of the average Indian or Chinese citizen, but we seldom feel comfortable turning that same microscope on the Western man-in-the-street, especially when that same man-in-the-street pops by for a quick diatribe.Sometimes the phrase "off topic" is applied to subjects of discussion which, nevertheless, provide very good insight into our own peoples' gold-buying motivations. Here in recent months we've witnessed rhetoric for or against various U.S. political parties, exhortations against gun control, attempts to align the book of Revelation (or Kondratieff or Nostradamus) with the present day, and dire warnings against the (pick one) Islamic Conspiracy, Jewish Conspiracy, New World Order Conspiracy, Anti-GATA Conspiracy, et cetera ad nauseum.At all stages, these postings have been followed by lamentations about this forum's tendency to drift away from its central topic. But do realise, dear hearts, that the appearance here of such off-centre commentary gives the rest of us a chance to see what motivates a rather startling number of potential gold purchasers.Should such off-topic posting be squelched? Well, to the extent that such postings overwhelm the intended pursuit of this forum, yes of course. But until they reach that extent, while they are merely embarrassing and annoying but not quite intolerable, I think that Michael is wise in letting it go on for a bit. Why? Because the presence of such postings provides the rest of us with far more than their authors intended. Such postings allow us to see into their hearts and find out what makes them tick.Such postings also inspire us to rationally discuss such world views in detail, discerning the point in their reasonings where the logical gives way to the not so logical. Being able to see the location of that point gives us an advantage when making investment decisions.For example, take Kondratieff et al. Of a certainty, there are cycles all around us, ranging in frequency from several hours to several centuries. But have you ever noticed that nearly every Kondratieff devotee attempts to place the present day within a hair's breadth of the super-cycle brink, then looks backward through time in search of previous brinks which queue up in a nicely regular cycle? I cannot think of a single case where such a forecaster concluded that the happy part of the cycle was coming up next. As a result, whilst I readily accept that cycles exert a profound influence over our lives, I find myself hard put to accept the predictions of most cyclists. It seems to me that most are merely attempting to find justification for their doom & gloom predispositions rather than objectively trying to find out where we really are.As a second example, take the vast number of party-affiliated Americans who are currently mortified about what "the other party" is up to. I think I speak for most of us outside the United States when I say that, at this point, we really couldn't care less whether Gore or Bush is your next president. We're far more concerned that the transition occur at all, that it occur soon and peacefully, and that steps be taken to prevent a repeat performance come 2004. How many hundreds of times in movies have you seen two people struggling for control of a speeding automobile? Such a scene can often be amusing, provided that the scene is being viewed from the safety of a theatre seat. When one is viewing such a scene whilst speeding along in the lane beside that same car, however, the event quickly loses its entertainment value.This is beginning to unpleasantly remind me of the first century BC, when the Roman Republic was beginning to experience breakdowns in its elections of chief executives. There were several tremors not unlike your Election 2000 which preceded Rome's descent into undisguised dictatorship. Although the typical Roman citizen well away from the epicentre most likely fared about the same before, during and after the transition, citizens of neighbouring nations such as Egypt most assuredly did not. Although our tabloid press might have you thinking otherwise, be assured we are not amused.--------------Fear is the mind killer--------------As a more individual example of off-topic world views, let's take the gun control issue. There's no question that the safety of one's stash of gold is materially improved by 1) not publicising that one has such a stash, and 2) having the wherewithal on hand to defend one's stash should an invader present himself. That's perfectly logical, and I for one will never speak against a man's right to anonymously acquire the means necessary to protect his family and property. I've always admired the cantina scene in the original Star Wars movie... Ben Kenobi presents the appearance of an old man who couldn't harm a fly, right up until the split second when he's given no choice but to reveal that he's the most dangerous person who ever walked into that room. If we all had neighbours like Ben, we'd sleep soundly every night.But when a man continually rails on about his god-given right to own an arsenal, his neighbours begin to wonder whether he's off his nut. Such men have on occasion been known to acquire hundreds of weapons then stash them loaded in every nook and cranny of their abodes, or even go so far as to hide in the forest and build bombs. Again, they're the one in ten thousand who give rational gun owners a bad name. And by no means am I singling out either guns or Americans... as Aragorn III can confirm, I reported some months ago on a maniac over here who charged into a sanctuary with a broadsword and wounded several parishioners before he was finally subdued.And yet, regardless of the manner in which such lost souls express their insanity, what's truly startling is that the inspirations behind their actions are merely more intense, but not wholly unlike, the inspirations of more rational souls who wonder if there's danger around the next bend.What in the world drives people beyond the bounds of rationality and into such misdirected and even occasionally destructive world views? Greed and fear... but mostly fear.Fear has always been the stronger of the two brothers. Oh, greed shows up when a man is faced with armloads of gold, there for the taking. But fear creeps in upon a man in the dark hours of the night, and slowly eats away at him until he no longer trusts what his own eyes show him. Fear will, if allowed free rein, drive a man into darkness and inspire him to drag others in with him.When you see how fear affects your fellow man, you have an advantage against that fear, because you've seen it from the outside first. Thus knowledgeable, you stand a better chance of successfully negotiating your life.Of course, while allowing such postings to appear, we must be quite outspoken in our responses to them. I think we've all come to understand that the vast majority of humans are quite willing to faithfully believe anything they find in print. Neurotic panic attacks committed to web text are just as likely to be believed as are carefully double-checked research papers. Those comparatively few of us who post at this forum have an obligation to the many who read us but do not post. By clearly and thoroughly challenging suppositions until their truth or falsehood is made plain, we provide a service which hopefully improves the lives of those who partake of it.Even though the actual subject of a post may well be off-topic, what it tells us of our neighbours' mindsets is often horribly relevant to gold. Such posts speak to the root source of man's 6000+ year allegiance to gold: gold is one of the very few ways one man alone can sneak his wealth past villains he expects will try to take it from him.It requires no elaborate conspiracy theories to explain why gold has spent the past two decades declining in price against the U.S. dollar: these past two decades have witnessed the end of Communism, the beginnings of European Hegemony, and the most prolific economic boom the U.S. has ever experienced. What possible use did Joe Average American have for gold in such a utopian crescendo?And for precisely the same reasons, it will require no elaborate theories to explain why gold will spend the next decade or more trending inexorably higher against the U.S. dollar: what pro-dollar news could possibly top what's already come to pass? A plummet into the pit is by no means the likeliest destiny for the dollar, but it's time it took a breather. It's time for some other part of the economic world to take the lead. Whether that other part is the euro, or gold, or the pound, or even the yen, is anyone's guess at this point. It's perfectly possible it may be more than one of them. And it may be years yet before the almighty U.S. dollar finally takes its break. But it could happen tomorrow. That's why I try to own a little bit of a lot of things, to minimise my exposure to the risk of any one investment taking a dive.Finally, although I hesitate to start it up again, there is one more major segment of off-topic topics which I just can't leave uncontested. Randy, Michael, I shall of course understand if this next bit fails to find its way from my email to the forum. Sometimes it's best not to poke at the hornet's nest.--------------Faith does not require clear thinking--------------I remain to this day absolutely astounded by the number of people (some of them briefly at this forum in recent months) who preach hatred of Jews and yet in the same sentence speak highly of Christ. I hate to burst your bubble, my dears, but Jesus was a Jew, and it's rather clear from the historical record that he thought of himself as a good rabbi who was trying to return some common sense to the people around him. He was even willing to share his world view with those not born Hebrew. Christ was not even remotely at odds with "the Jews" (of whom he was one). Rather, he was at odds with "the Establishment" (both local religious, local secular, and Roman martial). It's perfectly logical to try following in the man's footsteps, but first it would help tremendously to take notice of where the man was actually walking. Ah, but evidently that would be asking too much in this age of dumbing down.And what does this off-topic topic tell us about gold? Plenty.It tells us that a frighteningly large number of people have a world view in which historical fact is irrelevant. Millions of people blindly accept as fact a single source of words (or worse, a single modern person's interpretation of those words), never feeling the need to seek corroborating evidence.Many who seek lessons in the parable of the talents come to the conclusion that gold ownership is religiously unhealthy, and will refuse to contemplate any argument to the contrary. What's especially fascinating is that many of these same people regard it as a religious imperative to hoard a year's worth of far more perishable foodstuffs.And just to show that there's balance in the world of questionable conclusions, at least as many equally faithful folk will come away from their Bibles with precisely the reverse interpretation: that it is God's command that they should acquire and possess gold, again regardless of any argument to the contrary.The first group will never touch gold. The second group will never let go of it. And both groups would be averse to gold returning to its historical role as money in pocket. Nothing rational you say for or against gold ownership will have the slightest impact on either group because their minds are so firmly made up that they do not hear you.This self-blinkered mindset is particularly startling given that most of the statements attributed to the man they worship are admonitions that people ought to think more clearly. For example, many American religious leaders tirelessly rail against the United States' founding principle of the separation of church from state, as if this notion were somehow inspired by Satan (or worse yet, by the godless). Again, I hate to burst your bubble, my dears, but that founding decision was a direct embrace of Jesus' declaration that one ought to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's. Or more bluntly put, the tabernacle and the town hall ought each to stay out of the other's business.Contrast this with England, where most of our internal bloodbaths over the millennia have been the direct result of our having a state religion. Worshipping in any fashion other than that decreed by the monarch then in power was not an act of faith but rather one of treason, and it often led to a horrible death at the hands of government officials. Indeed, the very beginnings of English America are a direct result of faithful (but not approvedly faithful) people fleeing from a state religion. Modern Americans of all faiths (and of no faith) ought to consider themselves lucky and stop poking at one of the truly great safeguards their predecessors provided for them.I suppose I should disclose here that I am neither practising C of E, nor other Christian, nor Jewish, nor Muslim. Nor, perhaps to the surprise of some, am I an atheist. The best word I've found to describe myself is apathist: I simply don't care whether there is a god or not. What I do care about is how current events in the real world will affect my capacity to lead a happy life, both now and in future. As a result, I applaud good intentions and good acts no matter the belief system which inspired the actor. Likewise, I disdain bad intentions and bad acts no matter the belief system. And as you can see, I also don't hesitate to candidly state my impressions of the matter. Are my impressions the correct ones? I cannot say for certain that they are. But I can say that my Doubting Thomas world view has served me quite well to date. I try to stand back and see the world for what it is: an exciting and sometimes dangerous place, but not one which is specifically out to get me.--------------So where's the conspiracy?--------------A lot of people in this world suffer from an awkward world view which says that the population is made up of mostly good sheep and the occasional troublemaking wolf. As an easy extension of this mistaken world view, they then conclude that, wolves being inherently different from sheep, they must therefore be evil. Worse, as if individual wolves weren't dangerous enough, they're supposedly just cunning enough to unite in some planetwide conspiracy to get the sheep. Overly nervous sheep then look for simple identifying factors which will let them look at all the sheep around them and single out the ones whom they imagine are wolves in disguise. The result is bigotry, yet another wrongheaded but all too common conclusion.The simple truth of the matter is that we are all wolves and we are all sheep. Every last one of us: man, woman and child.This is why I find Machiavelli's point of view so refreshing, because he saw this dichotomy of human nature and laid out clearly how to make the best of it.--------------We are all wolves in sheep's clothing--------------In order to successfully make one's way through this world of ours, one must embrace this dichotomy, and even rejoice in it. For example, actors are clearly distinct from the roles they play, although you'd be amazed how many audience members (even well educated ones) find it difficult to remember that. Neither Mel Gibson nor James Doohan are Scottish, but they're proud of having played Scotsmen. For that matter, Bill Shatner isn't American but he proudly played a ship's captain from Iowa who put hand to heart at the sight of a tattered Stars & Stripes.This same dichotomy is equally visible among politicians. During the early Thatcher years, a group of crazed theatrical types concocted a play entitled "Anyone for Dennis?" (in reference to Margaret's husband, who was a bit of an embarrassment). I remember in particular a scene in which Dennis, downstairs, was answering the telephone. "No, I'm sorry, she can't speak with you at the moment. She's upstairs, practising her scowl in the mirror. I do hope she doesn't turn herself to stone."The notion I'm trying to get across here is that every one of us has an outside and an inside. It's so easy for adults to tell when a child is lying because the child hasn't yet realised that he has to lie with his mannerisms and intonation at least as much as he does with his choice of words. Adults can tell when a politician is lying, too, but that's for a slightly different reason (if his lips are moving, he's lying). Still, less than 4% of American voters this last time attempted to elect the one candidate who, by all accounts, was saying precisely the sort of common-sense things that everyone wanted to hear. And why wasn't he elected? Because no-one thought that honesty could win.Who needs complicated conspiracies when the sheep think like that?Yours,I.V. Holtzman miner49er (12/01/00; 10:14:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42603) December is the cruellest month... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1049000/1049470.stm Irag halts oil exports.Let the good times roil... wolavka (12/01/00; 10:04:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 42602) olson sounds weak send in superman. wolavka (12/1/2000; 9:25:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 42601) Road rage in florida Know why no elderly floridians have never been killed by road rage?????You ever tried to gun down someone where their head isn't higher than the steering wheel. Mr Gresham (12/1/2000; 9:25:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 42600) Galearis' last post http://www.edfman.com/mangroup/mangroup.htm In case you were searching for info on that AG seller... wolavka (12/1/2000; 8:48:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 42599) check this out spread between midam xkj and comex gcj wolavka (12/1/2000; 8:19:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 42598) Big crash soon supreme court will allow Gore in Bush out and then the fun starts. Henri (12/1/2000; 8:02:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 42597) Swedish Otto's Clink, Clink...or is that a Kvlink? wolavka (12/1/2000; 8:01:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 42596) Dave c not following heating oil, grain have support here but sideways to down unless dollar breaks lower. march beans have t l @ 520 .dollar headed for 113. no advice Galearis (12/1/2000; 8:01:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 42595) from GATA: perhaps the most significant news of years.... They will work REAL hard to paper this over! Just in case this was missed in significance!!!!********snip**************Le Metropole Members, Midas du Metropole has served commentary at The JamesJoyce table entitled, "Markets Collapse; Gold Cartel staring at Murphy's Law.""Something VERY strange is going on in silver. Very strange. The veteran silver pros on the floor can't figure it out." "1. ED& F Mann keeps selling and selling - more than 15,000 contracts - a huge position.2. Goldman Sachs is now long 15,000 March $5 silver calls. 3. The silver delivery notices today were exceptionally heavy at 7,000 deliveries with Goldman Sachs issuing 6,547 of them. Our sources say 100% of the accounts that stayed long Dec silver going into first notice day were hit with deliveries. That is unusual."*********splat*********This may be most of the last of the unregistered silver at COMEX. So the rats now turn on each other with knives brandished. Expect them to wallpaper POS and POG to death today...A TOCOM event has just moved up its date.Regards,G. DaveC (12/1/2000; 7:55:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 42594) wolavka USD soars on El Salvador inclusion into USD "sphere"!Just kidding.How are you on corn and soybeans these days? I would also like you opinon on heating oil.Thanks. wolavka (12/1/2000; 7:39:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 42593) key off dollar watch dxh march index. 115 then false breakout up , hammer it, DaveC (12/1/2000; 7:37:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 42592) El Salvador Adopts the USD I don't want to hear another word about the Euro Union taking in countries like Greece. The US colonization of LatAm continues with El Salvador added to Pananma and Ecuador. What a team.Reminds of playing baseball as a kid. As we chose up sides we would get down to the scrubs and little guys. What a team the US is putting together.Friday December 1, 8:43 am Eastern TimeEl Salvador Adopts U.S. DollarSAN SALVADOR, El Salvador (AP) -- El Salvador on Thursday became the third Latin American country to adopt the U.S. dollar as an official currency.Amid protests, 49 of 84 legislators approved the measure proposed by President Francisco Flores last week. The currency will go into effect next year.``This law strengthens our monetary system, the productive sector, and will allow people to refinance their debts,'' said Congressman Gerardo Suvillaga of the ruling Nationalist Republican Alliance, or ARENA.The move met fierce opposition from legislators from a party of former leftist rebels of the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front, or FMLN, who argued that the people should have the right to vote on it.Flores had suggested using the U.S. dollar alongside the Salvadoran colon as a way to attract foreign investment and trigger economic growth.U.S. and International Monetary Fund officials praised the move, saying that it would help El Salvador compete globally.The move is considered a last-ditch measure for countries unable to control their economies. Ecuador adopted the dollar in September to stem 100-percent annual inflation, and Panama has long used the greenback.Argentina has flirted with dollarization, but instead instituted a rigid currency board pegging its peso to the dollar.Under the plan, banks would keep deposits in dollars while private citizens could use either the dollar or the colon in daily transactions, starting Jan. 1. The exchange rate would be fixed at the current level of 8.75 colons to the dollar. DaveC (12/1/2000; 6:59:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 42591) Moral Hazard and Currency Problems Again Yesterday I opined to some friends that the coming currency problems in SEAsia, SKorea, Taiwan, etc., are like movie sequels.The best movies were trilogies. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, TClancey's Jack Ryan (all HFord) and Rambo come to mind.The consistent thing about them is with each movie, the second one was always worse than the first one and sometimes the third one was even worse than the second.Just my way of explaining to my uninformed family and friends. Phos (12/1/2000; 6:54:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42590) Randy (@ The Tower) - Comex Gold Thanks for the response. I had read some time ago that much of the registered gold at Comex was owned by GS. I guess maybe this was the source to cover the contracts. At some point, though, maybe someone will require delivery and the gold won't be there. Then, do they lean on another CB to supply the necessary? Black Blade (12/1/2000; 6:53:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 42589) "US Futures Summary: Natural gas, crude oil diverge. Natural gas futures hit new high on cold forecast, storage data; oil sags" ' New York--Nov. 30--Natural gas futures surged 6.6%, scoring a new record high on a private forecast that called for cooler weather in the Midwest and on lingering bullish sentiment about the latest storage data. Crude oil went the other way, dropping 2.3% after a three-week low as traders locked in profits before the Iraqi-threatened deadline to cut off supplies and eyed a report that Nigeria's oil workers have called off plans to expand their strike Friday.Black Blade: Worst case, thousands could die as per Matt Simmons, Simmons Intl., as it becomes a choice of "Heat or Eat" for many seniors. Hydro-Carbon Man's fix just got more expensive! Black Blade (12/1/2000; 6:49:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 42588) "Natural Gas Soars as Cold Weather Returns; Crude Pares Earlier Gains" NEW YORK -- Natural gas soared to another all-time high amid forecasts of below-normal temperatures in the Northeast and Midwest, which comes in the wake of supply concerns. Oil prices faded from earlier highs on easing fears that Iraq will suspend its oil exports after United Nations diplomats said they will allow the loading of Iraqi crude without approved December pricing. Shortly after 1:15 p.m. at the New York Mercantile Exchange, January natural gas was up 47.4 cents, or 7.7%, at $6.655 per million British thermal units. It hit a high of $6.73 earlier, above the previous all-time high of $6.62 set Nov. 22. Temperatures in the Northeast are forecast to hold below normal over the next six to 10 days, while temperatures in the Midwest are seen below normal during the same period, according to the Weather Service Corp. in Washington. The latest cold snap follows bullish news from the American Gas Association Wednesday, which reported a drawdown of 146 billion cubic feet. The inventory data raise concerns about supply as the nation heads into what is expected to be a cold winter. Also at the Nymex, January crude oil slipped six cents to $34.57 a barrel. February crude rose six cents to $33.55 a barrel. December gasoline fell 1.03 cents to 89.65 cents a gallon amid profit-taking ahead of its expiration at the close of floor trading Thursday. However, December heating oil jumped 1.72 cents, or 1.7%, to $1.049 a gallon, buoyed by the cold-weather prediction. December heating oil will also expire at the close. Oil futures retreated after the U.N. moved to diffuse a potentially inflammatory situation by saying it won't stop tankers loaded with Iraqi crude from leaving port, diplomats said. 'We went into negative territory on that news' before rebounding slightly, said Laura Anello, broker/analyst at FCStone. 'It does look like we'll be ready to sell the heck out of this if (the situation) is resolved. But the story's not done yet.' A major stumbling block remains: Iraq's State Oil Marketing Organization has told its customers that it will suspend exports early Friday unless buyers agree to pay a 50-cent-per-barrel surcharge into an Iraqi controlled account, an industry source said. 'We could add another $2 to $3 on this news if the threat is real,' Ms. Anello said...'Black Blade: Hydro-Carbon Man is about to feel the pain of his addiction! With the higher energy costs, and rising inflation, the Gold Bear will break loose and the fun and games at the Bullion Houses will be over as they will not be able to restrain gold anymore. They will have more than enough to deal with as the markets crater and Hydro-Carbon man is in a panic. This is just the first quarter and it isn't even over yet! Canuck (12/1/2000; 6:18:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 42587) @BB CRB showing NG at 6.80; wow! Hipplebeck (12/1/2000; 5:12:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 42586) day traders Looked in on a couple of daytrader forums yesterday. The most talked about subject.......prozac Midas Mulligan (12/1/2000; 2:27:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 42585) I am John Galt I am John Galt because I have the ability to drain the collective soul which is static energy. I live in Atlanta which is Atlantis or Galt's Gulch or Midas Mulligan's valley. It's time for all minds on strike to move to Atlanta/Galt's Gulch and to start trading with each other using James Turk's gold currency. I used the Ga Tech Georgia game to show those who think who I am. Up with the White and Gold, congratulations to Tech, I helped them win by draining the collectivists enough to give the individualists an advantage and thus Tech won. But the collectivists are a drain on the brain and regain an advantage (when the moon is in its dark stage they can drain the brain, when moon is light they cant) so the battle never ends until enough minds quit and the collectivists are left sucking wind instead of blood. Rockgrabber (12/1/2000; 1:16:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 42584) HUGE THANKS This is just fantastic that I have been able to gather such valuable information for myself, as I am an ohterwise lost individual. But I have been directed to a great spot for relevant an insightful info, and for that I must give up thanks, even if gold tanks, I know of the truth that is being strived for here. How can truth be wrong?? Keep uncovering truth, and may I thank all who are doing so thanks. Thank you for all the years, of serious devotion to more then just research of how to benifit for yourselfs, but to all the REAL thought that has gone into uncovering truth. Eventually lets kill the lies in whatever the truth is being hidden in. 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