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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 1/11/2003
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

The Invisible Hand (01/11/03; 23:20:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 94171)
Two madmen?
sector:

You said in msg#: 94166 among other things:
The Blair warning about "Legal problems" with the war was an acknowledgement that [As Drudge Reports] his party won't back the war without UN approval...which won't happen.
So Bush looks like a fool at the end of next week or he charges in like a madman precipitating unknowable chaos.

If I look at the headlines of the British press today (Sunday), Blair is already acting like a madman. (Granted he has not yet started any military "action".)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/
Blair acts to avert Suez-crisis
Tony Blair will make a personal appeal to sceptical Labour MPs this week, asking them to back his stance on Iraq

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=368619
Back away from war, Labour warns Blair
Exclusive survey of top party officials reveals huge opposition to bombing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/01/12/nirq12.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/01/12/ixportaltop.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=40397
You're losing the party over Iraq, Cabinet warns Blair
SNIP
Tony Blair has been warned by Cabinet ministers that he must take urgent steps to "sell" his military strategy on Iraq as he faces the threat of rebellion from Labour MPs and party members.
The Prime Minister is being urged to "hit the road" and undertake a nationwide tour explaining the need for military action to counter the growing threat of mass defections from party activists.

Christian (01/11/03; 23:06:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 94170)
should read>
The Euro handlers will have to keep the Euro honest or the people will store their savings in gold.

Christian (01/11/03; 23:01:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 94169)
The Euro and somewhat free market>
>will trade side by side. Where the Euro is legal tender gold will become a savings vehicle. And in the Middle East gold will be legal tender and the Euro will become the investment currency. The Euro is a free trading vehicle as far as its value goes. The Euro $ has no set value and neither does gold. Both can move up or down based on demand. The Euro is comming out with a gold coin with no value stamped on it in 2004. The U.S. $ and the Euro have the same problem. Assets such as stocks, bonds, homes are overpriced, cost of labor and benefits promised is to high. Both currencies will devalue and a new gold currency will emerge as a form of savings (stored labor). But the Euro has an advantage over the $. The more gold goes up the more backing the Euro has and with it they can expand. Germany still has 111 million troy oz., of gold and like Switzerland they are selling it to the social security pension fund. This is a very good idea because now the pension funds will have an asset that does not depend on someone els's liability. Unlike our social security funds that get robbed every year of its cash value which is replaced with debt instruments we the people have to pay to get our own money back. What good is a lock box if it is not used. Euro handlers will have to keep the Euro honest or the people have a way to move savings into Euro. We should be doing the same.

mikal (01/11/03; 22:33:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 94168)
@Sector
I agree. Except for two questions: 1) How effective are those U.S. mine "blankets" that deploy out like a net and discharge mine fields? 2) What would a 9-11 scale terror attack or series of attacks against western targets do to the Brit's resolve, American opinion, UN, etc.? Thanks.

mikal (01/11/03; 22:21:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 94167)
@Christian
I always enjoy your posts and agree with most of your observations. In Iraq, I too see many obstacles to predictable outcomes, yet giving more room and opportunity for discussions & negotiations. For example, the recent reports of 200 GPS jammers in Iraq and the Turkish and British scene.
"We are about to witness the reemergence of the old Roman empire with the Euro faction controlling the northern..." This is VERY interesting. The free gold faction won't prevail in all of the original Euro Group of 12? If so, how? TIA!

sector (01/11/03; 22:19:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 94166)
The Denial by Gul of US Troupe Staging in Turkey Means...
...No Iraq war.
With Turkey an effective obstacle, others will bow out of the "Coalition" too. Perhaps even Britian.

Saddam is a ruthless thug but another Bush has been outsmarted once again.

First it was the Saudis talking Bush the 1rst out of an attack on the Iraq capital in '91, this time Turkey moves decisively to block the US. President Gul is in Saudi Arabia right now probably "Explaining" his Northern Iraq/ Anti-Kurd[The US puppets] rationale to the Royal Family long before he says anything to the US.

Ultimately the failure of the US to muster a real Army is at the core of our failed interventional military policy in Iraq and elsewhere. To imagine that Tommy Franks could invade a nation of 26 million hostiles and subjugate it with 60,000 on the ground combat troupes tells one a great deal about the disconnect from reality at the Pentagon and especially at the White House.

The supply lines are 400 kms long. Everything is mined. Forget the chems and bios. A ring defense of Iraq's cities with recruited and children firing away. Every soldier there knows this is about oil.

The Blair warning about "Legal problems" with the war was an acknowledgement that [As Drudge Reports] his party won't back the war without UN approval...which won't happen.

So Bush looks like a fool at the end of next week or he charges in like a madman precipitating unknowable chaos.

Machiavelli warned the King not to listen to exiles. Too bad the Bushies were drinking beer in History class.

Black Blade (01/11/03; 22:09:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 94165)
Richard Russell On Gold
http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_03/russell011303.html

Snippit:

Gold is in a primary bull market. Gold, real money, is a very emotional item, in that the central banks are afraid of it, the Austrian economists love gold, people who believe in the US Constitution love gold, inflationists hate gold, certain nations sell gold, other nations lust for gold, men throughout history have lived and died for gold, armies have fought for gold. The reason, gold is the only money that has held its value over the course of history. Gold represents permanent wealth. This has occurred in the face of the fact that every paper currency in history has ultimately sunk to worthlessness. In other words, gold has its detractors and its admirers, millions of them on both sides. But gold is in a very peculiar position today. The central banks of the world are frightened of gold because if gold rises, if it takes an increasing amount of the central banks' paper junk money to buy an ounce of gold, then what the hell is wrong with their fiat paper money? It's a question and a situation that scares the devil out of the central banks. So we can expect a lot of erratic action from gold as the various factions use their propaganda and their arguments for or against gold.

So here's what I'm getting at. Now is the time to accumulate gold and gold stocks. The hard part will be to sit with our gold and gold stocks while the great battle rages. Declines in gold will represent opportunities to accumulate more gold and gold items. Time is on the side of those of us who accumulate gold because in a bull market a given item will appreciate through time. As the Fed generates an increasing amount of credit and paper in their battle to offset the forces of world deflation, the value of gold will increase. It's simple -- central banks are generating vastly more paper than the gold mines can produce in comparable gold values. As gold climbs, be prepared to listen to the propaganda of the gold haters and those who fear gold. "It's too high," "It's being manipulated higher," "It's being bulled by war scares," "It's just a short squeeze." Get used to it -- there's a huge contingent who have a vested interest in gold going nowhere. They possess loud voices, but they're losers. They're losers because they're on the wrong side of the truth.

Black Blade: This is the point that many of us have been discussing for some time. The anti-gold forces continue to bombard the world through the media that Gold is just a "barbarous relic". It is true that the price will bounce around as speculators push the price around, however, we see a secular Bull Market for Gold. The reasons are many such as rising records of debt, economic and geopolitical instability, crumbling world currencies, and tumbling stock markets, among others. We will likely hear a lot of anti-gold commentary in coming weeks and months (especially on any price dips). The visual and print media are sure to come out with more anti-gold propaganda and guest commentary from Wall Street investment banks and an assortment of analysts (at least those not currently under SEC investigation). Physical demand worldwide is rising fast and producers are unwinding their hedge books. Sure we will see some occasional pullbacks but that is normal in any Bull Market. So don't get too excited when the primates argue against Gold because we have heard all before � even while Gold moved up from $255 to $355 and their recommendations were pathetic losers.

Christian (01/11/03; 21:48:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 94164)
(No Subject)
The Euro is backed 15% with gold, but the gold is set aside and not available for trading. If it was'somebody would of have purchased or stole it by now. This gold is set aside as a reserve and is valued the same value as so called free market gold. The truth is there is no free market in commodity gold and credit creation gold is traded in derivative form on the OTC as credit swaps. The most sought after export from USA and Canada is GOLD. We alone are exporting 100 tonnes a year. Have been for many years. We are as stupid as the British are selling gold for the lowest possible price. Who's interests do we serve? The Euro can buy assets just like the dollar can by simply digitalizing digits of no cost. FED has warned all USA European stock funds to sell European stocks for some time now. And they have, but instead of taking most of the money home, they went into European Bonds. We are about to witness the emergence of the old Roman Empire with the Euro faction controlling the northern faction and the free trading gold faction getting a hold on the Middle East. If Bush had an ounce of honesty, he tell the American people on a televised speech that your clan run by your father financed and helped Saddam with his dirty deeds, and that now we must get rid of him and use the oil money to rebuild the country. Then do it-not ask the U.N. for permission. The way it looks now you (the president) may have to suck up to Saddam just to keep others out. We are getting most of Iraq's oil, so why destroy a good thing. Saddam is at his best when he is cornered. Saddam has a card up his sleve and he is going to use it. He is already setting up his retirement home. A deal has already been cut. His younger son is already in charge.

Paper Avalanche (01/11/03; 20:34:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 94163)
@sector - Agreed
Thanks for the thoughts. I am curious to know if the movement of Turkish troops into Iraq is, in fact, a short circuit in the plans of the US to secure the sought after oil fields.

Not asking you specifically for info wrt this news report. Just thinking out loud.

Take care.

PAPER AVALANCHE

sector (01/11/03; 20:26:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 94162)
@paper Av 89% of Tony Blaiur's Labor Party Opposes the War
Many said they will resign
That could cause a no-confidence vote and if Blair loses such a vote his replacemnent may recall whatever british troupes have been sent to Iraq.

What we seem to be seeing is a debacle in slow motion. The "Coalition" that never existed has hamstrung the President.

The best laid plans of Karl Rove and Paul Wolfowicz crumbling to dust.

The Fed left hanging with no war fog to cover the launch of a necessarily higher gold price.

silvercollector (01/11/03; 20:12:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 94161)
Had a horrible thought today......
....if the Iraq thingy suddenly got out of control, would Hussein kidnap and hold hostage the UN inspectors?

Tacitus (01/11/03; 19:36:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 94160)
MK, thanks for #94106
Dear MK,

I think I know who you are. I read your book, twice and then some. Thanks for answering my 94095 posting. Now the question for me is what percentage to put into gold. I believe %100 percent in diversification. Timing the market is a losers game as far as I am concerned, or would be for me at least. So a simple diversification, as you said, is the way to go. The thing is we all want to grow our wealth, and I am not in a position to be real conservative. I have to give it more thought.

Your mention of diversification instead of rapid trading, it made me think of John Bogle. I mentioned a number of his articles in posting 94088. At the risk of annoying you, I almost think you are kindred spirits. You seem to apply many of the same principles to investing, however to different financial assets. I would love to hear what you think about his approach to investing in stocks and bonds, via index funds and chosing the age appropriate percentages in stocks and bonds etc. I read his book too (Common Sense in Mutual Funds, New Imperatives for the Common Investor) and something tells me to try to combine the insights from both of you.

One other topics. You mentioned the recent policy speech of Alan Greenspan. I wish I could find that. I would be interested in reading the part where he was hinting at a greater role for gold in a new monetary system, if I understood rightly.

Salve,
Tacitus

Caradoc (01/11/03; 19:21:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 94159)
A sign of the times?
Depending on how old you are, you may remember what happened after Kennedy sent "advisers" into Viet Nam, or what happened after Nixon asked people to stop taking silver quarters out of circulation because they were only worth a quarter, or what happened after Carter said "I will do whatever is necessary to support the dollar." If you think this record of ineptness continues into the new century, you may find it chilling that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) has decided that they no longer need their capability to deploy huge generator-equipped 4x4 trucks to provide electricity to disaster sites. Assuming that FEMA is wrong, plan to bring a flashlight to the next disaster. And be glad you bought gold before things got tough.

For anyone is interested: GSA is auctioning the trucks from each FEMA region separately. Four from the Pacific Northwest closed today. One in Georgia closes next Wednesday. Just go to gsaauctions.gov and look under "trucks."

Mr. Bill (01/11/03; 18:41:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 94158)
@mikal msg#: 94154
There was one more quote that I am surprised that you missed.

"You don't know poo poo." - Endgame �The early years�

This of course has been toned down from the original quote for family channel consumption.

Alchemist (01/11/03; 18:41:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 94157)
euro
I find todays posts very informative in understanding the concepts of the dollar and euro. Thanks to Belgium and Mr. Gresham for their discussions on the Dollar and the Euro. In having a fairly good understanding of the Fed in the US and who is behind it, is the Euro formulated by different masters as has been quiried by one post today. I think that is a key concept in trying to understand what is happening in the mid east today.
Can a series of posts be nominated to the hall of fame. I would like to nominate Belgium and Mr. Gresham discussions in posts 94124, 94127, 94129, and 94141 be put in the Hall of Fame.

Sierra Madre (01/11/03; 18:36:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 94156)
Clarification:

I should have written:

"...if we are going to see a price at which fortunes can move into and out of GOLD at will...then Euros 30,000/ per oz."

Sierra Madre (01/11/03; 18:21:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 94155)
Belgian: Ah! the importance of communication!

Thank you for your patience, Sir Belgian, your clear exposition in post 94141 is quite explanatory.

Well, well; if we are going to see a price at which fortunes can move into and out of the Euro at will, then we are talking about Euros 30,000 oz., perhaps more!

Only that price - or perhaps even much higher - can possibly accomodate all the huge fiat numbers, both Euro and Dollar, that are common today.

It takes a lot of thinking to be able to grasp that, but - perhaps it is possible. I cannot say it is not possible.

Now it is clear what you have been driving at: a super-currency, a true numeraire, into which the public can run at the first whiff of fear, thus disciplining the Central Bank to tighten or face the consequences. The way it should be!

Let us hope that Europe can achieve the materialization of this vision, and regain for itself the center of the world, the position it deserves as the center of Western Culture.

Sierra

mikal (01/11/03; 18:01:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 94154)
@Sovereign
You: "...yet you think you are treading a golden pathway to wisdom and financial security."
Trail Guide: " We walk the trail together, no?"
Today I opened fortune cookie reading: "You are in good hands." And another one was slipped under it: "It is during difficult times that true friends become apparent." And I thought that our "true friends become apparent" here as "hands" that dependably assist us in "difficult times". Not to provide ALL answers and wisdom. But to "walk" together on life's trail, yes?
"Wisdom outweighs any wealth."- Sophocles, 'Antigone'
"It is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things."- Thoreau, 'Walden'
"Wisdom sends us back to our childhood."- Pascal, 'Pensees'
"The way of the sage is to act but not to compete."- Lao-Tzu, 'Tao Te Ching'
"Wonder is the beginning of wisdom"- Anonymous, 'Greek Proverb'
The highest wisdom has but one science-the science of the whole- the science explaining the whole creation and man's place in it.- Leo Tolstoy, 'War and Peace'
"The great good is wisdom."- St. Augustine, 'Soliloquies'
"The price of wisdom is above rubies."- Bible, Job 28:18

CoBra(too) (01/11/03; 17:23:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 94153)
Bill Bonner - again... on Moral Hazard
... Gold ought to have gone up ...

"The term 'moral hazard' has a special meaning as well as a
general one.

"The idea is simple," explains Jeffrey Tucker in an article
published by the Mises Institute in December of 1998, "If
you are continually willing to protect people from the
consequences of their own errors, your benevolence will be
factored into the future decisions of the persons rescued.
In the long run, they will make even more errors. The
principle exists at all levels. The teacher who changes
grades when students plead hardship isn't helping in the
long run. The teacher is rewarding and thereby encouraging
poor study habits. He is creating moral hazard."

The new, collectivized world of the late 20th century was
full of accommodating teachers and forgiving wives.
Investors paid too much for stocks. Businesses and
consumers borrowed too much. And the whole world seemed to
believe what couldn't be true - that the dollar was more
valuable than gold. For nearly 20 years, gold went down
while the dollar went up.

Gold ought to have gone up. Since the beginning of Alan
Greenspan's term, the Monetary Base has almost tripled. In
the most recent few years of Mr. Greenspan's term, short-
term interest rates have been driven down to barely a fifth
of what they were two years ago.

"[L]owering rates or providing ample liquidity when
problems materialize, but not raising them as imbalances
build up, can be rather insidious in the longer run,"
concedes a working paper from the Bank of International
Settlements. "They promote a form of moral hazard that can
sow the seeds of instability and of costly fluctuations in
the real economy."

By the beginning of 2003, there were an estimated $9
trillion of U.S. dollar assets in foreign hands...and three
times as many in circulation as there had been in 1987. The
hazards had never been greater...nor ever so hard to see...

More Monday... Bill Bonner" ...

You got to love the guy for stating the truth in a "real
nice way"! cb2

Sovereign (01/11/03; 17:04:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 94152)
ECB Hippleback, Belgian...
Dear Belgian,

The official websites only suggest, to the best of my knowledge, that national central banks (French, German, Italian, Belgian etc.) are contracting parties to the ECB. The true ownership of the ECB, as in WHO OWNS THE CENTRAL BANKS THAT SUPPOSEDLY OWN THE ECB, is not revealed.

You are walking on air, Sir Belgian, yet you think you are treading on a golden pathway to wisdom and financial security. Sadly, I am most likely coming along for the ride. I guess that's what being a mortal human being means, after all.

Sovereign

Paper Avalanche (01/11/03; 16:59:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 94151)
Sector - Turkey beating the US to Iraqi oil
Isn't Turkey joining the Euro in twelve months? If so, it appears that the lines for this upcoming war will be drawn based on what currency you support. If Turkey is going into Iraq to beat the US troops to the oil fields, and is doing so at the behest of the Euro faction for oil to be priced in Euro, then WW3 has just begun.

Take care all.

PAPER AVALANCHE

CoBra(too) (01/11/03; 16:50:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 94150)
Did They Find a Real Gusher?
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/breaking/breakingnewsarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20030111&ID=2227481
OPEC discussing opening the taps (in correct
British "faucets" - or tapped out taps) in order
to buffer any fallout from a potential Iraq War.
Also the price targets have been penetrated to
the upside - in terms of what measure, I'd be
interested to know?

After all, it couldn't be the US Dollar price
of the barrel - as I can't see the Sheiks being
irrational? Can you?

Gold for Oil? Another('s) Thought closer to
reality - cb2

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (01/11/03; 15:24:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 94149)
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MK (01/11/03; 14:43:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 94148)
GoldnSilver2002. . .That's all Changed!! And USAGOLD is in the Vanguard
http://www.usagold.com/announcement/international.html
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Usul (01/11/03; 14:18:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 94147)
Worst trade gap for three centuries
http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=360520
"Britain's exports to Continental Europe have collapsed...

The goods deficit ballooned to �3.6bn in October, the largest monthly figure since King William III started collecting data in 1696..."

If that sounds a tad bad, it's probably because it is. Much more is being taken than given. There must, in the fullness of time, be a correction to balance the books. Ulitimately it will mean that more goods must be produced, and less imported. The force that will produce this change will be a currency revaluation. There may be a rush to the euro as a "panic measure". The dollar and the pound are in a three-legged race, and the precious metal runners are running in the opposite direction.

Old Yeller (01/11/03; 13:56:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 94146)
Tactitus,I see,is
http://www.atimes.com/global-econ/DD11Dj01.html

Still shaking the red,white and blue pom-poms and chanting
"USA,USA".

Perhaps,given a level playing field,your observations would
carry some weight.

As of now,they are pure propaganda.The facts and advantages
of US dollar hegemony are clear,the US frolics and and "prospers" in the rarified air of a sweetheart deal.

Now,as the world's largest debtor,they lecture and
threaten the rest of the world to subscribe to their
unique vision of freedom mixed with coercion,deception
and outright dishonesty.

Plus,the weaponry,paid for by borrowing from the less
"enlightened" world traders.

The ones that produce the real wealth.

Belgian (01/11/03; 12:44:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 94145)
@GoldnSilver2002 # 94139
He/she who desires Gold, anywhere anytime, will certainly find it. All these countries have internet-caf�s and within a matter of minutes, they will find USAGOLD_CPM and the much desired Gold is only a phonecall away.

But the second part of your posting is very interesting to analyse it further. The ordinarry western individual lost his natural, evident, touch with Gold ! Reason : Gold being UNFREE ! Sounds ridicule but it isn't. Unfree Gold is Gold wich has been frozen in price (price-movements) and has been forced to fly under the radar screens of any observer.
We know "how" and "why" they did it !

As soon as anyone mentioned Gold within his/her social environment...the reactions were uniform : Gold is out and dead ! This is true for media-rich, western societies under the influence of the financial fraternities. And not so for the Eastern part of the globe.

During the good times of global economic expansion...ordinarry man/women saw no reason for paying any attention to physical Gold in possession. It doesn't matter if you count your wealth in grams, kilograms or tonnes of Gold. The principle remains the same.

But there are many places in the world where the public exposure of Gold as an expression of "wealth" is very common. Euroland has a long tradition of regular emissions of Gold-coins for many different occasions. As to keep the Gold-memory alive within the general public.

Now, what will happen when the possession of physical Gold, by the general public, is encouraged again by officials ?
What if at the same time POG is supporting these encouragements ? How easy it is to move the masses in one way or the other, isn't it.
Believe it that "Gold-fire" can be ignited, very very easy and extremely fast on a very broad scale.

And whoops, I found again *Another* reason to mention the euro-concept again and put it responsible for igniting this Gold-fire, again to support the "concept" and make free physical goldtrade as normal as it was in the past.
Don't expect this from the dollar-block. Because the dollar-concept cannot afford any Gold-fire ! The euro wants it as an enhancement. Euro-reserves are already marked to market as an indication that this currency has no fear of a rising Goldprice !!!
The ECB owned by its member states organizes the Gold euro-flows from ECB to member states, also holding gold exchange reserves in their national banks and where the profits (gold-trade) flow to their respective treasuries !!!!
See how ECB works at given link to Hipplebeck.

Euroland heavely relies on income of the 75% taxes of oil-energy. This is a gigantic state money (sorry confetti) spinner. Euroland's central banks and ECB wants to create such a second Golden moneyspinner with taxes on free physical goldtrade, indirectly and directly with a constant rising POG for their gold exchange reserves, enhancing the euro in intrinsic worth whilst expanding as a reserve currency. Too late for Argentina, Venezuela, Mexico...but not for us here well informed by our mentors.

Cometose (01/11/03; 12:01:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 94144)
@A Nation of ONE
NO STOCKS.....not for a while (years) ,,,overvalued....games....fraud...accounting....pumping and dumping .....by the fed.... bubble mania.....when it all burns up , I want something that transfers as value..

Belgian (01/11/03; 11:49:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 94143)
@ Hipplebeck -ECB
http://www.ecb.int
At the above link you find everything you wish to know on the ECB. Happy reading, Sir. Dinner time.

CoBra(too) (01/11/03; 11:25:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 94142)
The DEBKA Files posted by Sector -
are real scary. The Kurds, which are base in eastern Turkey, Iraq, Iran and other neighboring countries were a fact discriminated and oppressed too long. I could envision these people to undermine any more oppressions by getting ahead of the game played by out by the oppressors of any color.

Many years ago I travelled by car from Ankara to Teheran and on to Kabul. No paved roads then from Turkish Kaiseri onwards and since it was going on to winter and passes of 4.000 metres of elevation had to be passed - by slippery bridges, iced over, and re-inforced only by extra boards your car had to negotiate these kind of obstacles. I gave up at a hamlet, just about 20 miles before Erzerum - maybe 50 miles before the border Turkish/Iranian border of Bazorgan. Stayed overnight at a Chai-kanee (Tea-house) and was offered their marvellous hospitality. A hospitality, which I could reciprocate 3 months later upon my return - it ended up as 2 days festivity. Very warm memories of this occasion are still with me ... and yes, it was some 40 years ago...

Much more to the golden point is Mike Bolser's note to last night's Midas.

Great to have these kind of guys - ha! - posting here - Thank you and don't forget, you'll probably find you won't be able to get real value for any amount of fiat for much longer - C U - cb2

PS: MK - Bormio # 2 - The empire has fought back - after hours - what a race - as Daron looked as the winner already!

PPS: Skydog - Thanks for your kind comment ...

Belgian (01/11/03; 11:16:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 94141)
Re
Gresham : Yes Sir, indeed it all started with the "stop the war" idea ! "IT" being EMU = European Monetary Union.
The "basis"...the "fundamental" ! And consequently, with a "concept" that has been EVOLVING and still is !!!
A monetary union that was born out of political will to avoid future wars, within Europe. A common currency before all other aspects of unification/uniformation. Therefore that particular currency ECU>>>EURO was disigned to be very strong indeed. A lot of diverging forces were going to come down (and still are) on its (euro) shoulders.

Yes the US$ was an economy booster (Marshall plan) rather than an economy destroyer ! But that was then and now it is now. The cost of the past prosperity is seen in the dollar's debasement. Voila, thank you very much Mister dollar, but you aren't of any use anymore. The dollar can't produce "genuine" prosperity anymore for the thousand reasons we are discussing here. The dollar did its "nice" trick in after war Europe and exported the same modus operandi all over the world. The dollar has become pure debt during its fast and deep creation of prosperity and relative peace. We "all" co-operated with this dollar-magic and abused it. That's why *the window* was already closing in 1971, shortly after the two WWs (1914-18 and 1940-45) and the spiking prosperity.

Sierra Madre : The ECB's Gold-reserves (wealth-asset) is an "exchange-reserve". That is a tool (the ultimate tool) to manage the specific euro-currency. That big word "monetary policy". More Gold or a higher price for the valuable Gold-reserves for the same amount of currency, makes this currency stronger vis a vis another currency.
It is the Gold-exchange-reserve that monitors the currency.

If a new currency (the euro) wants to be loved, used for trade and saved...it must have a strong and reliable appeal and build a track record of stability serving economic growth.

The euro-concept wants to deploy a system where Gold-pricing happens in function of real physical Gold trade IN EURO ! The euro currency must be closely associated with trade in Physical Gold. The fluctuating POG (in euro) is going to reflect "trust/confidence" in the euro or in Physical Gold itself. If the euro becomes a lousy currency due to mismanagement, the concept acts as an arbiter and initiates a move into Physical Gold, up to the point where the euro exchange rate has adjusted to reality again and is safe to exchange for Gold.

Quite different from the dollar-gold-standard where a certain amount of goldreserves remained at a fixed price (41$) whatever happens with the dollar.

Old Europe knows too well that politicians will always cheat on any currency. That's what happened with the dollar and with the old european currencies as well. Competitive devaluation and permanent devaluations. Now let us stop this idiocy and indicate Gold again as the *neutral* arbiter for our currency management.

The Gold-arbiter must be able to operate freely and with diplomatic immunity . That's why the original concept gained ground. The oil factor came somewhat later and gave more/broader meaning to the concept.

A free physical goldmarket is an a priori for being able to switch from euro-currency to Gold and vice versa. Gold-Wealth must be freely tradable as everybody accepts the neutral authority of any arbiter. You can call this redeemable or not. For Big fortunes being able to shift in an out of Gold...you need a free market in physical gold with free pricing !!! Exactly what is not possible today !!!

That's the clue Sierra ! Fortunes can NOT go into Gold "freely" because Gold's price is schacled by the paper-monster. The dollar wants to keep it that way for him to survive. The euro does not want this dollar-saving system and therefore wants to destroy the gold-paper-market and set Gold free to enhance the euro consequently and pushing the dollar on the sidelines in that same all-embracing move.

Yes, in order to *agree* on a free physical goldmarket...political will (acceptance) is needed. Same process to come to EMU. The euro and dollar must, at a given moment, see a win-win thing in his free physical goldmarket. The euro is in the process of pushing the dollar into such a position that the dollar becomes a bit more flexible towards the needed political will to establish the free goldmarket as a replacement of the old unworkable goldstandard. It is that euro-pushing that I'm trying to evidence. Arabian oil is watching us (euro and dollar). Push a bit further or hold back ?

Yes Sir, it might very well be that the euro-haters haven't given up on their sabotage (not destruction) actions. Yep, Anglo-American global financial power ! You got my point there, very well.

Yep...we all wait, watch and see and...take one Golden bird in hand instead of 1,000 euro-birds in the air.

a nation of one (01/11/03; 10:49:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 94140)
correction

My statement, "The last point on the red line represents the average price of gold over the past 200 days."

Should read, "The last point on the red line represents the average value of the DOW over the past 200 days."

GoldnSilver2002 (01/11/03; 10:49:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 94139)
Argentinians didnt run to gold because they couldnt get any
Here,in the first world,north america anyway,we can often lose touch on how the rest of the world lives.In the last 3 years i have travelled extensively throughout asia,europe,central america and even south america(columbia).We often speak about japan and china's buying because it is available to them.When i was in holland,i found it very difficult to obtain gold'some banks saying they would only sell it only to clients and some only offering paper gold.At the coin stores, gold had to be ordered and came in less than mint condition.In costa rica the banks looked at me like i was crazy."You want to buy gold?!",as if i was from another planet.When i asked where i could buy gold,they didnt even know!In many countries gold is not so readily available and even when it is,many simply dont know how to buy it or where.

Secondly,we say things like gold is cheap.Yet a mere one ounce coin costs 350 dollars us per oz.Nowadays not many people have enough money in the bank to buy even two coins without using their credit cards.Over the last 20 years the channels and means by which people buy gold have slowly been closed.

What is my point?The demand for gold would be far higher but many already cant afford it and the rest cant get it,even if they want to.Gold will be for the elite soon,but silver "poor man's gold" will be another story.

a nation of one (01/11/03; 10:28:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 94138)
clarifications

A clarification is needed to one of my recent posts.

1. Stocks can go up from here. The blue line may even cross over the red line, as it has done previously. But if you think in terms of months, you will see that a substantially higher market in stocks appears profoundly unlikely.

a nation of one (01/11/03; 10:06:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 94137)
oh, a disclaimer

My opinion is just an opinion. You are still responsible for your all of your losses. But then too, you may keep all of your gains.

a nation of one (01/11/03; 10:02:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 94136)
@ Tacitus (01/11/03; 09:26:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 94131)
http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=INDEX_INDU&v=dmax&w=1&t=l&a=200

Your concern: "I wonder if there is anybody out there at say %10-%20 physical and %80-90 other? Am I the only one on this forum who still has some hope for the future of stocks and bonds?"

--I am at 30 percent physical and 70 percent long gold futures contracts (December 2003), and have been for almost a year. I got out of stocks in September of 2000. In answer to your second question, go to the link and look at the chart. Notice the blue line. Then answer this question the best you can: Do I think there is a real possibility the blue line will go up from here? (The answer should be something like, "No. Almost certainly not. At least not enough to bet anything substantial on.") Then notice the red line. It is the 200 day moving average. The last point on the red line represents the average price of gold over the past 200 days. Notice that the red line has been going down for a while now, and that it is still pointing downward, increasingly. This implies that the blue line will continue to trend downward. In addition to this, notice that the most recent part of the blue line has been below the red line for about six months, more or less, and that, as the most recent 200 days move forward into the coming days and weeks, it already has been established that the red line will probably go down further. Therefore, those who hold hope for an up market in stocks can only do so in ignorance. I don't mean to be rude. 'Ignorance' is merely the correct word. I will use this opportunity to point out also, that that is the nature of hope and faith. Where there is hope or faith, there is not knowledge; for, where there is knowledge, hope and faith are extraneous.

sector (01/11/03; 09:41:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 94135)
Are Turkish 2nd and 3rd Divisions pouring into Iraq heading for oilfields?
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=237
Turkey points its N. Iraq military deployment at� the Kurds

DEBKA-Net-Weekly 92 Exclusive updated by DEBKAfile
January 11, 2003, 4:19 PM (GMT+02:00)

Are Turkish 2nd and 3rd Divisions pouring into Iraq heading for oilfields?

The new Turkish government has performed a spectacular about-face with respect to US war plans for Iraq and its post-Saddam aftermath, a large monkey wrench that is bound to throw off Washington's timeline for launching its war offensive against Iraq. This partly explains the pressure building up from Britain and other western powers to postpone the assault.

Ankara's turnaround, as uncovered by DEBKA-Net-Weekly's military and intelligence sources in Washington, Ankara and Tehran, may be a tactical ploy for a better deal with Washington. But in the meantime, it derails almost two years of painstaking formulation work on complicated political and military arrangements for the conduct of the war in North Iraq's Kurdistan.

Before the war begins, and with Saddam looking on in Baghdad, America's two key partners on its northern front, Turkey and the Kurds, are vying for post-war spoils: control of the government in Baghdad and oil. Bringing them back in line is essential, if the vital northern flank of the American warfront is not to be disabled before and during the conflict. The US will need to keep a weather eye on how its two northern allies are behaving and keep important segments of its army in reserve. Instead of fighting Saddam Hussein, they may be called on to separate the two old enemies.

The US-Turkish deals thrown in disarray by Ankara are:

A. Turkey's war role, hinging on its commitment to open a second front in northern Iraq and leave the Americans free to focus on their drives from Kuwait in the south and Jordan in the west.

They are also backing away from making Turkish bases available to the US air force as jumping off points.

B. Turkey's post-war stake in the north Iraq's oilfields and the oil cities of Mosul and Kirkuk, as well as the share-out of oil revenues among the US, the new federal government in Baghdad, Turkey and the Kurds.

Already, the Turkish army has stepped out of its pre-defined war role. The Turkish 2nd and 3rd Corps, deployed along and across the Iraqi border to take on Iraqi troops, are laying Iraqi Kurdistan to virtual siege, interrupting the flow of imported foodstuffs from Turkey and Kurdish exports going the opposite direction. Travelers to Kurdistan must go round through Syria or Iran.

Turkish armored units have also seized positions along strategic northern highways connecting Zakho to Ammadiyah and those towns� road links to Dahuk and Aqrah, which lie north of Kirkuk and Mosul. They have thrown up roadblocks and are searching Kurdish vehicles. Any Turkish attempt to block these roads to Kurdish traffic would inevitably provoke outright clashes of arms.

The Kurdish leader Barzani, who arrived in Ankara for talks with Turkish leaders on Wednesday, January 7, was greeted according to our sources with "stony faces and blunt military threats", such as: "The Kurds had better beware of making enemies," and "Any wrong move will prompt Turkish military reprisal."

Turkey is pouring troop reinforcements into northern Iraq all the time. A heavy concentration has been posted on the Turkish-Syrian frontier, to keep Syrian forces from coming to the aid of the Kurds and fend off possible Kurdish terrorist operations in southern Turkey.

High-ranking American officers, who went to Ankara on troubleshooting missions, asked Turkish army chiefs how deep their divisions meant to advance into northern Iraq. The same question was put to Turkish field commanders. They replied that their orders were to keep moving forward - even as far as Baghdad.

British defense minister Geoffrey Hoon received the same answer when he arrived in Ankara Wednesday, January 8 to try and mediate the dispute.

A Turkish government team of experts is rummaging through old Ottoman Empire archives for the deeds and certificates affirming property ownership in the two cities, the oil fields and other parts of northern Iraq. They believe they will find documentation for proving Turkish ownership in the oilfields before World War One and intend pressing their claims.

Last week, Turkish prime minister Abdullah Gul, whose party Justice and Development was elected in a landslide last November, made the rounds of Arab capitals in search of support of Ankara's latest stance.

Western diplomats, probing for the immediate trigger of the Turkish volte face, reported to Washington on two reasons: The Turks were dismayed by the paramount leadership role the Americans assigned Kurdish representatives at the conference of Iraqi opposition leaders that took place in London last December. They also took note of the political and military preparations for self-rule advancing in Kurdistan. Ankara believes the Kurds are on course for independence, not just autonomy, a development Turkey will never countenance.

Before the crisis is over, Ankara will most probably backtrack on its most extreme demands after gaining some US concessions. But the process will be time-consuming.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now we know the real reason behind the latest US invasion delay, Turkey has grabbed for Iraq's oil first and balked at US troupe staging missions.

The chubby bozos in the Pentagon have blown another one. Can't wait to see their "Back-up" plan.

Sierra Madre (01/11/03; 09:29:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 94134)
@ Belgian...the "concept" of the Euro...

Don't get me wrong, I am all in favor of the Euro. Better to have two gangsters to deal with, than only one. If two, they each limit the other's power to some extent.

But, Euro is fiat and only fiat. What, pray tell, is the "concept" of which you speak? Either a currency is redeemable in gold or silver at a fixed rate, or it is not.
If it is redeemable, it is to some extent trustworthy; to
some extent only, because the redeemability MAY come to an end, and usually does.

If the currency is not redeemable, it is fiat. Use at your peril.

So, there will be a free market in gold in Europe. That's wonderful. Please explain how this "ENHANCES" the Euro. I hear you mention this verb quite a bit, what exactly does it mean? It's a pretty word, it sounds good, but: either there is redeemability or there is not.

No redeemability, and we have FIAT MONEY. That's what the Euro is, let us make no mistake!

The European PTB simply want to muscle in on the "World Reserve Currency" racket - why should the U.S. have a monopoly on it?

The Middle East may choose to receive Euros in payment instead of Dollars for various reasons, which have little or nothing to do with gold:

1. Why take the fiat money of those who are aggressors?
2. The dollar appears less likely to maintain its value than the Euro, because the Americans are threatening to destroy its value with their economic policies.
3. Diversification of Reserves into two competing fiats is prudent.

I didn't plan on going into this following point, but I may as well:

The First Order of Business, upon (successful) conclusion of the Oil War on Iraq, will be the destruction of the European Union and the Euro. That is clear as day, to me.
The motivation behind WWII was NOT Nazism and the odious Hitler, but EUROPEAN UNION, which threatened Anglo American global financial power.

That is why Britain is waffling about joining the Euro. Why adopt the Euro, if it is going to be destroyed? Britain must wait and see how the Iraq war turns out. If the U.S. is successful in taking over Iraqi oil fields, the Euro will be "kaput"!

Get your physical, at any price!

Sierra

Hipplebeck (01/11/03; 09:29:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 94133)
spelling correction
Who owns the ECB?

Hipplebeck (01/11/03; 09:27:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 94132)
World at war
Why is Bush brandishing the nuclear sword?
Why is the US in such a hurry to grab the oil?
It's because the world is already at war, economic war, and America is losing.

1. Rothchild banks of London and Berlin.
2. Lazard Brothers Banks of Paris.
3. Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy.
4. Warburg Bank of Hamburg and Amsterdam.
5. Lehman Brothers Bank of New York.
6. Kuhn, Loeb bank of New York.
7. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York, which controls all of the other 11 Federal Reserve Banks.
8. Goldman, Sachs Bank of New York.

These are the men that are trying to con the world.
They are the owners of the federal reserve banks.
They are Jewish banksters.
Who ows the ECB?

A gold backed currency takes the power away from these men.
They are willing to start world war 3 to hold onto that power.

Gold is honest money for honest folks.

Tacitus (01/11/03; 09:26:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 94131)
#94116 & Diversification
Dear Golden Bear,

Thanks for the info. I currently sit at just over 10% Gold and the rest is in Stocks and Bond Mutual Funds. You are at 50% gold and %50 cash if memory serves. I have learned on this website that there are a lot of different stategies. I wonder if there is anybody out there at say %10-%20 physical and %80-90 other? Am I the only one on this forum who still has some hope for the future of stocks and bonds?

Salve,
Tacitus

Mr Gresham (01/11/03; 09:20:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 94130)
And don't miss the Antal Fekete
http://www.goldisfreedom.com/Greenspan-andCo.htm
He always presents his unique accounting-based viewpoint of what's going on at the top of the financial pyramid.

"Financial Vampirism

"In the view presented here deflation is a huge wealth-transfer scheme from the producing sector to the financial sector, denuding the former of its capital, and enriching the latter with risk-free capital gains. Indeed, the beneficiaries of the falling interest-rate structure, making risk-free profits thanks to the zero-interest policy of the central bank, are the principals of the financial sector, chief among them those of the big money-center banks. Their obscene profits do not come out of thin air. Their wealth is not newly created wealth. It is existing wealth siphoned off the balance sheet of producing enterprise, forced into bankruptcy by the falling interest-rate structure. This is modern vampirism practiced by the financial sector, aided and abetted by the central bank, and its victim is the producing sector.

"The bear market in stocks is not the cause but the effect of deflation. The cause is the artificial bull market in bonds financed by the central bank. If you ask the bond speculator about his obscene profits while the rest of the economy crumbles around him, he will shrug: "I play by the rules. And I did not make those rules either."

Mr Gresham (01/11/03; 08:52:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 94129)
Belgian
"We have been living with the dollar for so many years as Europeans. Now we are changing into eurolanders with the audacity of a new currency WITH a concept !"

Wouldn't you agree that much of the entire shift could be put into one sentence: "WW2 is over!"

It's known that Roosevelt and the power circles around him studied and planned from the late 30's on how to expand US role throughout the world as Europe came to war. Opportunity knocking, no, SCREAMING! And they were ready to be the dominator. With a currency ready to do much of the colonizing.

(Notice how US used the war as an economy-booster, rather than economy-destroyer.)

So, all Europe is saying today is: OK, OK. 50 years is enough time in the penalty box! We won't do THAT again! Look, we've even gotten the currencies of FORMER ENEMIES joined together. When has that ever happened in history before? And meanwhile you've outrun the prerogatives we abandoned to you by going to war.

Every Empire has its time in the sun. But now it's time again for a shift. And the natural, daily productivities of 300+ million people will have their expression in a daily-used currency. But a currency that doesn't try to be Everything in the financial world. A currency that will even wisely defer to REAL things. It won't propagandize itself as being more than real things, more than just a currency. It won't get up on a pedestal from which it can fall. It will just go to work everyday, and do its job.

(Note: This is an attempt to state the theory we discuss here about the Euro being different than the Dollar. I have no direct knowledge whether or not there is a cartel of bankers behind that currency as there is behind the Fed's Dollar Franchise.)

And it's time for people worldwide to learn the difference between a currency and real things. A little economics lesson a-comin'...

Mr Gresham (01/11/03; 08:36:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 94128)
Don't miss Doug Noland this week
http://prudentbear.com/creditbubblebulletin.asp
on the Fed's Ben Strong and how they "started the party" in the 1920's...

Belgian (01/11/03; 08:35:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 94127)
@ Sierra Madre
No Sir, I'm NOT marketing the euro-currency ! I am studying the "concept" behind it. Did the same with my shampoo. What's the formula of the soap in it ? And what are the characteristics of that chemical entity. I'm not going to stash that shampoo (euro) but the chemical (Gold) that is making that shampoo excellent to use. But when my hair needs a wash (trade) I'll take some shampoo (euro) and not the pure chemical (Gold).

I, personally, don't hold my Gold-Coins with the intention to sell them at any projected price (400$ > 600$ > 850$ or euro) in any currency, euro or dollar. That's not the purpose (sale for profit) when one stores/concludes, his/her, wealth.

I do believe that Gold's price today is completely "absurd" and that there must be a very good reason for this. This is what A/FOA explained with his brilliant insights. And I constantly keep on checking if the emergence/existance of the euro is a good reason why Gold-things will change !
When saying euro, think euro-concept.

That's why I first had to study the dollar-concept to know in what the euro differs from the old working stuff at present. We have been living with the dollar for so many years as Europeans. Now we are changing into eurolanders with the audacity of a new currency WITH a concept !

The euro-currency is the conclusion of old ideas ! Euroland wants to compete with the dollar. A competitor always has better intentions than the established, complacent original dollar-ruler ! Hey brother, I'm a capitalist you know !

The euro has embraced Gold as the best and most reliable sponsor there is. That's why I'm going after that sponsor, Gold... with euro. Not with dollars anymore as I was forced to do, before ! What if many others (Chinese/Russians/Indians/Arabs) get the same idea of going after Gold and Oil (wealths) with *Another* currency than the original dollar ?

How can real wealth be exchanged, FOR EVER, with a continuous debasing dollar-currency ? Quite a contradiction...or a once in a lifetime GOLDEN opportunity ?

Yes, I see panicking Venezualens, exchanging their currency for dollars ! The act impulsively as a reaction on the Argentina experience. No they did NOT run massively into Gold ! That's why Gold needs modern, wise architects, who have "Another" idea about Gold-Management ! This to break with the past 21 years of Gold immobilism and un-natural, artificial paper-containment due to lack of any workable alternative .

Yes, I do understand why it is much easier to remain complacent about the dollar. Viva the road of least resistance and all will come well !? I'm of a different opinion thanks to the intelligence of A/FOA/MK and many others here present.

How brutal it is to state that the dollar had its time and that those old Euroland continentals dare to challenge the dominator of times ! That's life Sir.

Not a POG of 600$/oz but thousands of euro is the new concept's goal / reality. It is NOT us who are going to achieve this. But maybe our obstinance might one day resort some effect on the masses, when the time for "wealth" is ripe. Gustave le Bon already knew that masses do react in stampede mode. The euro-architects do know this also. And the modern financial brotherhood is exploiting this art at its fulliest of power within the confetti-business of stockmarket/bonds/currencies and derivative explosives. And this mad business has been overdone at a destructive level.

Have a nice WE, Sierra.

Hipplebeck (01/11/03; 08:24:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 94126)
This read is for you engineers out there.
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/bankmath.htm

The last paragraph of the study:

I hope this analysis has helped clear up many of the formerly
misrepresented and misunderstood aspects of the usury banking system
as well as explain why usury has been condemned throughout history as
the greatest crime against humanity. It's the only thing standing
between mankind and abundant salvation.

Hipplebeck (01/11/03; 08:04:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 94125)
crunch time
The problem;
They must get the party started again before they can raise interest rates.
The dollar will continue to fall until interest rates are raised.

Productivity;
Today, a Chinese guy makes a pair of tennis shoes for 2 dollars, and I sell the tennis shoes in USA for 20 dollars.
Tomorrow, a Chinese guy makes a pair of tennis shoes for 1 dollar, and I sell the tennis shoes in USA for 20 dollars, whose productivity really went up? According to the government, my productivity went up.

Greenspan has promised to expand the discount window if need be until he is willing to accept almost any collateral, including gold mines. Well I guess so. Duh! I'm sure that those banksters will be glad to accept everything you worked hard for and will be all too happy to give you a worthless piece of paper for it. They are not your government, they are not your friend, they are thieves, partnered with the politicians in organized crime. When debt is money, there is only one conclusion in the end, Bankruptsy or the banksters will own everything.

Gold is honest money for honest folks.

Belgian (01/11/03; 07:28:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 94124)
WHAT IS YOUR WEALTH ?
Interview on BBC with high ranking Euroland negociator on bilateral trade, Pascal Lamy, on the subject of genetically manipulated (GM) agricultural products. P. Lamy emphasized the following : Euroland's views and opinions (policies) are getting more weight and implementation-power, when differing from the views and opinions (policies) of the US !
This was stated firmly and with a lot of affirmation and self-confidence. It was "this message" that Lamy wanted to communicate rather than discussing GM in all its aspects.

This growing euro-confidence must also be present in the euro-currency-concept on wich the new strenght has been builded. Evidence that the dollar "must" take into consideration that a viable euro-"competitor" is born and growing.

We all want to become dollar-rich and famous. But do we aspire to become euro-wealthy and wise ? How many amongst us strive to "conclude" perishable richness in eternal Gold- wealth ? The difference between rich and wealthy, being GOLD !

Is the euro-concept an answer, in or out of the box, to a dollar-inspired, "financial" economy, organised by a brotherhood ??? I'm afraid it looks like it is or might probably become very soon. Certainly when we recently hear new voices calling for a renewed dollar-gold-standard (A.G.- Sinclair) instead of the silent/discrete, euro-gold-concept in progress.

The derivatized monetary/financial system shivers about the possible idea of a renewance of the "Wealth Valuator", Gold.
Pascal Lamy's firmness pushed me a bit further again in my conviction that it is happening, now.
The silent euro-builders and architects are getting faces and voices.

The euro has the ambition to become a Gold enhanced "money" and not a dollar-fiat/confetti that lost Gold and is probably in the proces of losing oil-wealth.
One can be rich in underground gold terms but wealthy in physical Gold in possession. Quite a difference up to the extend that one needs first to become dollar-confetti-rich before this can be concluded in Physical Gold. This is changing.

But our paper-richeness is no more...! It has evolved in mounting debt not to be served anymore out of real *profits*. Soon fiat/digits and maybe, many tangibles, will represent nothing more than ever growing debt.

Wise and "very" rich giants, old and new-ones, know this and therefore are unmistakingbly embarking on more, scarcely available, Gold. I count the euro-architects under the wise and they have created the euro-concept as the renewed wealth-accumulation initiator. Not only to provide an instrument for pure wealth-trade and conservation but at the same time offering an alternative for the outdated dollar-system.

What struck me as an Eurolander in President's Bush latest speech was that he mentioned the "refinancing" aspect as an asset-builder in the American economy. Debt upon Debt !
Encouraging a 60% consumer-driven economy to take debt upon debt... upon eternal debt, thanks to concerted lowering interest rates, soon going negative. Helicopter money to keep things going ? Hallucinant !?

I am in the process of fully "understanding" A/FOA's title : In the footsteps of the Giant's Gold Trail ! Conclude your wealth in Gold as much as your understanding allows to.
What exactly is your wealth....richness...fame...wisdom...?
Good subject for weekend introspection whilst doing something pleasant.

Sierra Madre (01/11/03; 07:00:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 94123)
Belgian, are you in MARKETING?
You may have good reasons for being so optimistic about the Euro, I am glad you are. I thought of your enthusiasm as I used the shampoo in the shower this morning. "New and Improved!"

Here's the marketing line:

"TRY EURO, the NEW and IMPROVED World Reserve Currency! 500 million users!

"Free, six-month fiat-back guarantee. Try the EURO for six months and if not fully satisfied, your fiat back!!!

"Try EURO with GOLD ENHANCEMENT and your Central Bank Reserves will be stronger, firmer, healthier!"

"Gold enhancement". Lovely, beautiful...and means nothing.

Great for sales!

Sierra

The Invisible Hand (01/11/03; 06:19:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 94122)
Fed has been modeled after German hyperinflation Reichsbank
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/7g.htm
SNIP:
Sixty years later, amid a well-coordinated attempt on the part of industrialists and financiers to transfer power over money and interest rates from elected representatives of the American people to a "Federal Reserve" of centralized private banking interests, George Reynolds, president of the American Bankers Association, rose before an audience on September 13, 1909, to declare himself flatly in favor of a central bank modeled after the German Reichsbank. As he spoke, the schools of the United States were being forcibly rebuilt on Prussian lines.
==
Hipplebeck, I hope this answers your questions. To tell you frankly, I am surprised by what I found as answer. The wonders of the web. I knew John Taylor Gatto for his book "Dumbing us down" on schooling, but I was unaware of his financial teachings.

Hipplebeck (01/11/03; 06:05:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 94121)
Questions
In the Weimer republic in Germany when they had the hyperinflation, was there a central bank? Who owned it?

Topaz (1/11/03; 04:32:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 94120)
Townie, Gandalf etal.
I'm struggling here Guy's...
Spot Gold is traded in London (am-pm fix) then the overlap and NY trades in "standalone" mode for several Hr's. As the NY (comex) arena is a "futures" market, is Spot at that time derived from the futures ie: GCG03 minus GOFO or similar?

Topaz (1/11/03; 02:16:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 94119)
@steady
Hey steady,

The Dirham/Dinar relationship is only a "weight" connection. You'll not find a "value" association one to the other in ANY medium. Mr Market will perform the task.
Thats the mental challenge...to divorce your thinking from a Dollar value based marriage (mirage) to a Metal reality value.
Don't sweat it, I've been trying to for Years and still struggle with the concept.

Kagalaska (1/11/03; 02:11:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 94118)
Blanchard quotes
http://www.mips1.net/mggold.nsf/Current/4225685F0043C1B285286CAA007A7563?OpenDocument
Snip: "to have a conspiricy,there must be a violation of laws that apply to the individuals or organizations that are acting in concert. the activity of the central banks in leasing or selling their gold; the activity of the producers in hedging their production; the activity of speculators in taking advantage of the declining market predpitated by those practices may very well serve to suspend the laws of supply and demand. however, it is not clear that any of them, separatly or thgether, constitute illegal activity"

"Many investors investors continue to buy or hold gold in the mistaken belief that gold's historical utility is unchanged"
and more drivel ad nauseam

Topaz (1/11/03; 01:50:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 94117)
@knotakare.
The "flation" question is a most complex issue. Where the Admin/Fed look for a resolution is patently obvious via the "fiscal stimulus" package. Middle-upper America and Wall St are the intended beneficiaries...so, by definition, these groups are the "disflationists"...lets say 25% of the population.
The others, "inflationists" albeit a vast majority, and suffering the impact of price inflation, pale to insignificance compared to group A.
Why the attention to A?
If the SM isn't reflated, systemic risk via a T-Bond market collapse is a destinct probability.
Corporate America seems hell-bent on systemic destruction by providing, on an almost daily basis, reasons NOT to reflate.
A wholesale DEflation (futures discounted to Cash) is the hallmark of systemic failure imo.
Physical Gold in possession should find you with not-a-care as surely, under such circumstances "possession" will be 10/10th's of the Law.

Golden Bear (1/11/03; 01:47:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 94116)
Tacitus (msg#: 94095)
Hello Tacitus,

simple strategy for my modest portfolio is 50:50 physical in possession and cash. I own no shares or bonds. The little that I have in super (aussie version of 401k) is also currently in the cash option. I may dabble in some unhedged gold stocks soon, but I have not decided yet.

As for exact calculations ragarding protection from devaluing currencies, who knows. It has varied from event to event as Sir MK has pointed out.

The way I see it, this strategy is simple and efficient. As we move towards crisis point, the risks for hard earned capital already saved is too great to attempt to seek high returns in other paper based "assets".

Cheers.

Kagalaska (1/11/03; 01:39:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 94115)
Skating Away on the Thin Ice of a New Day - Jethro Tull 1974
I am amazed at the ambivalence accorded the approaching "Perfect Storm"(Puplava)which sends its clarion call louder each day to thoses who will listen. How are "we"( I hold no paper with in on it)to sell our stocks, cash in "our" futures, ect when all it take is one EMP(Electro Magnetic Pulse)bomb, or one more Worldcom(MCI, ATT ect)network shutdown to cripple or kill the net we rely on for info. When that happens all the electrocredits in the world will mean nothing,because we won'tbe able to get to them, and at some point they will vanish never too be seen again, sorry charlie. All those that crow about a holding in stocks of this or that(pick your favorite flavor)with the pride of a father for a newborn son, what is it worth,a tax write off, bar bragging, fire starters? The elephant is dying, when the ice breaks will you go with him, or do you have a pole long enough to catch solid ice on each side of the hole to save yourself and that which is important to you? What is your exit strategy?--Gather Gold unto thine Ass and maybe some more.( Hopfuly this has been altered enough to avoid even the merest whiff of plagiarism)-Sorry ARI for using your exit salutation in my previous posts.

I love the man that can smile in trouble, gather strength from distress, and grow brave reflection. 'Tis the busines of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his coduct,will pursue his principle unto death.-Thomas Paine, 1737-1809

Be a Good Human- Kagalaska, everyday

steady (1/11/03; 01:35:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 94114)
silver
http://ccdev.lets.net/materials/dinar.html
rember that along with the gold dinar comes the silver dirham. they have minted both. the historical relationship is
According to Islamic Law...
The Islamic Dinar is a specific weight of gold equivalent to 4.3
grammes.
The Islamic Dirham is a specific weight of silver equivalent to
3.0 grammes.

Umar Ibn al-Khattab established the known standard relationship
between them based on their weights: "7 dinars must be
equivalent to 10 dirhams.

this finally helped me understand what was meant by not at these prices.
as is there enough silver available for this to happen?
NOT AT THESE PRICES THERE ISNT.

Christian (1/11/03; 00:08:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 94113)
$ = a reverse mortgage on your equity.
The $'s value is (has) deflating because it's quantity in debt form is inflating. A $'s value is debt based, depending on the taxpayer's ability to pay their own and their local, state and federal debt. The $ now is a reverse mortgage on remaining equity be it their own, local, state or federal holdings. This reverse mortgage is paid out over time with $'s worth less. The definition of money will change as the credit component is destroyed, leaving only the tiny cash component. Holdings of precious metal is only one way to stop the credit component from destroying your savings. To the rescue will soon come colored money, the Euro component of the U.S.$. You will be able to exchange your cash be it notes or coin for Euros in digital form (which was the plan all along). The Euro will then become the world's fiat for paying debt just like the dollar is today. Euro's side partner commodity gold will become the currency to hold savings (stored labor) in. The Euro will then deflate until just like the U.S.$ did and a new gold backed currency will emerge to start the process all over.

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