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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 2/11/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Mr Gresham (2/11/2001; 23:44:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 48043)
Directory
http://www.investorama.com/bestoftheweb/
Here's another finance directory.

Mr Gresham (2/11/2001; 23:38:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 48042)
Finance Web Sites
http://fisher.osu.edu/fin/journal/jofsites.htm
The Candy Store

Mr Gresham (2/11/2001; 23:35:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 48041)
Fading the Downturn
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010208/n08625073.html
Which way do you want to play it?

Peter Asher (2/11/2001; 23:32:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 48040)
�Flation Stats

Mt. Bachelor, world class ski area, same prices as last year: "business waaay down."

This is the top of the discretionary income food chain. A ski weekend for a family of four runs about $500. Easiest thing to 'not do' if your fuel bill is up that same amount. "Quid Pro Quo"

Sun River building lots: Up 89% last year. (Most years, 10%) Realtor says was most definitely "Bubble Money." Market dead since November and price reductions starting to happen despite extremely low inventory.

This is a piece of the price/market activity that evades statistics. 401-K money, transferred to stock sellers who then pursue ultra-luxury products with "Easy Money." Now, with flat market, that activity literally steps out of the picture. What it had been, was a piece of the sponge that soaked up inflationary pressure.

Peter Asher (2/11/2001; 23:11:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 48039)
@Journeyman
(Just caught up since mid- thursday)

Regarding enemy soldiers celebrating Christmas together.

We had a video, a few months ago, (Trying to recall the title) which was a true story written by an American survivor of WWII, in which his platoon encountered a group of German soldiers on the last Christmas before VE day. Mostly old men and mid-teenagers, they wanted to surrender and after celebrating together, they planned a mock battle for the next day, the sound of gunfire to be herd by the German HQ causing them to believe their soldiers were taken by force; This to prevent reprisals against their families.

As they were enacting the charade, one of the Americans who had been, as he was going a bit mad, left out of the plan; happened out and believing it to be a real fire fight, shot to kill. In seconds, all the Germans and one American were dead.

The film showed also, how the American brass worked at de-humanizing the enemy, against the natural inclination of the soldiers to see them as people like themselves. This was so well done as to be a documentary in all forms other then that actors were used to bridge the gap of half a century; (and the fact that the dead can't do "take-two"!

We'll keep an eye out for the title and let you know.

ET (2/11/2001; 23:01:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 48038)
mhchuck

Hey mhchuck - love your stuff! Great post! You wrote in part;

"The game has been rigged so that the holder of gold needs disaster. What a sad state, that prudent folks are portrayed as
pessimists who wish for systemic collapse. Anyway, they can keep what has been expropriated from me. I have learned,
and my opinions have been shaped by this experience."

Nice summation.

Well, you gotta believe that from "their" point of view, the collapse of the state currency is "the end of the world as they know it". I have this sneaking suspicion though, that the same people knocking gold are accumulating it for the same reasons you or I might. I'm happy to see my tax dollars going for such a good cause as keeping the public confused on monetary issues. Today's "price of gold" is OK with me.

Wretched capitalists unite!

Dollar Bill (2/11/2001; 22:57:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 48037)
I prefer mr. total amatuer

"We can decide what to do with gold later, once all that(gata's goals), is accomplished."

"We figure that people have chosen sides long before now and must be prepared for the consequences."

"Why should we care if the people who have brought such misery to the gold world have to suffer a little themselves?"

Why am I not surprised that Chris Powell, like Murphy, shows so little understanding of what the consequences would be if thier dream comes to pass.

Why am I not surprised that Chris Powell, like Murphy,
shows so little understanding of the thinking of those
they broad brush as the greedy enemy.

Some would claim that Mr TotalAmatuer does not do enough homework, or he is going public enthusiastically before
mastering the subject.
The gata boys fit that more than Mr Amatuer by a long shot.

SHIFTY (2/11/2001; 22:56:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48036)
PPU
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
Periodic Ponzi Update

Nasdaq 2,470.97 + Dow 10,781.45 = 13,252.42 divide by 2 = 6,626.21 Ponzi

Down 136.09 from last week.

Thank you Sir RossL for the link.

Go GATA !! Go Gold !!

$hifty

Mr Gresham (2/11/2001; 22:23:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 48035)
Paper Gold
http://www.cepr.net/stock_market_bubble.htm
Link: Costs of the Stock Market Bubble.

If they can have a Nasdaq at 240 P/E, and SP500 at 1% dividend yield, there can be a paper gold world inflated to many times the physical backing. Gold's depression the mirror image of the stock world's insupportable mania. It just keeps going on --- until it doesn't.

Forget the mines, unless you're a lawyer looking to do breach of contract workouts...

Horatio (2/11/2001; 22:06:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 48034)
PAPER GOLD
The mines that hedged thier production for OLD Dollars got screwed big time!Unless they are immediately used for new mining claims or find new reserves with a cash cost below 280.00 .I doubt they will renege on paper gold .If they do that the Government will fall,they will have zero creditworthyness.Does that answer the Question "who is buying paper gold and why ?"

Mr Gresham (2/11/2001; 21:45:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 48033)
Thoughts at Dinner
$240 mortgage the barn.

$220 mortgage the trees.

$200 mortgage the kids.

You guys have been great today! Asking all my questions...

Horatio (2/11/2001; 21:41:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 48032)
Paper Gold
As soon as they realize,they have gotten all the physical they can get,they will recall the old currency 280-to 1 giving you a 15 % gold backed currency at the official gold price of 42.00. This is how greenspan will get all those Dollars out of circulation and keep the inflation down.Everyone would rather have gold backed paper than not.
THINK ABOUT IT ..280 TO 1

Horatio (2/11/2001; 21:21:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48031)
Paper Gold
Is paper gold the new currency?If the fed banks own or control physical,they can use the outstanding paper claims on thier physical as currency,no?Is this not how it all got started in the first place?The gold storage issued paper receipts and gradually issued more receipts than physical whem they realized only a small percentage ever placed demands for physical redemption?Yes THEY are buying physical, controlling mines by demanding they hedge before getting loans for mine developement.The central bank lending is createing the new paper currency and thier physical is in the ground.You heard it here first amigos.I HAVE BLOWN THIER COVER!!!Listen not to what they say ,but watch what they do!

Leigh (2/11/2001; 21:09:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 48030)
More WGC Commercials
Farfel, if I might add a few more suggestions for commercials for the World Gold Council's consideration....

Show newspaper headlines declaring, "Two Killed in Gold Mine Explosion," and "Six Gold Miners Trapped, Presumed Dead." Then show grisly scenes of cyanide-poisoned Romania (is that correct?). A tense, angry voice states: "GOLD...MORE PRECIOUS THAN HUMAN LIFE."

The stock market is melting down. Brokers are jumping out of windows. Soup lines are forming. But goldbugs (who are portrayed as loathesome social misfits) are rejoicing, throwing their gold coins into the air and hugging one another with glee. The narrator says, "THIS IS WHAT EVERY GOLD INVESTOR DREAMS OF."

Show a World War II scene in which Nazis are stealing gold from helpless concentration camp internees. They are grabbing gold from their victims' clutches, pulling out gold teeth, and then greedily comparing their stashes at the end of the day. The narrator's voice says, "GOLD...IT BRINGS OUT THE BEAST IN A MAN."

This is fun!! Does anyone else have suggestions?

mhchuck (2/11/2001; 19:42:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 48029)
Farfel, The WGC.
I'm rolling on the floor. Thanks for the laugh.

Best Regards,

mhchuck.

slingshot (2/11/2001; 19:22:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 48028)
Tree in the Forest Msg.48021
Game of chicken.
Mr. Magoo, Alias Greenspan, is playing a game of chicken with the gold bugs. All the negatives on gold is part of the game. Again the price of gold is down. May go down further.
Are we all ready to blink? Give up? What is this disaster on the horizon? Recession? Depression? Hyperinflation? We have the jump on that. Mr. Magoo is a banker. I do not trust
them and this guy has power. Where is his allegance? The U.S., C.B.'s Why didn't this guy say at one of those capitol meetings if he likes gold so much, say, "we need to buy Gold". Nooooo! IT was the same Mumbo Jumbo, Speak in tongues. Should they drive the price down so far, at a time some banks are acquiring gold, doesn't that kill the goose?
Do you remember the tune, "Hold That Tiger"

Back to the GOLDEN TRENCH, Hold that tiger, Hold that tiger!
Slingshot

Farfel (2/11/2001; 19:21:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 48027)
World Gold Council: Cheap Whores for the Bullion Banks.
Feb 11, 11:03

"London--Feb. 11--The World Gold Council has doubled the fees it charges
leading gold producers to fund a $20 million marketing campaign intended to
combat weak gold prices, the Sunday Telegraph reported."

----------------------------------

I think it is absolutely hysterical that the sleazy whores from the World Gold Council have decided to increase their marketing campaign in order raise gold prices.

As most readers know, the World Gold Council is comprised of the bullion banks' favorite whores in the gold industry, most notably Anglogold and Barrick Gold. These whores can be counted on to act as bullion bank proxies in selling forward years and years of future gold production, thus preventing the gold price from rising, thereby protecting the huge gold short positions of the various bullion banks, enriching bullion bank exec and shareholders, while ultimately bankrupting the smaller gold producers, devastating their shareholders, and throwing tens of thousands of miners into the street.

Now as many of you know, these WGC whores enjoy raising money in order to persuade people to buy gold jewelry, as opposed to purchasing gold as a sound investment alternative to financial paper instruments.

Now you would think these WGC whores would leave the gold jewelry marketing to Tiffanys or Cartier, as those kinds of jewelry retailers have entire departments dedicated toward the purposes of marketing gold items to the masses.

But the WGC whores, creators of the most pathetic, unintelligible, irrelevant, advertising campaign known to man (namely, the "Y2k Conquistadors in Search of Gold" ads), have decided that they will try and outdo that amazingly, uninspiring effort...and with $20 million bucks at their disposal, one can only imagine what whorish, sub-moronic crap is about to be released by the most ineffective, the most whorish trade organization in the world.

However, keeping with the spirit of churning out grossly ineffective, whorish mediocrity designed to "turn off" people from gold purchases or investments, I have a few exciting new ideas for new gold ad campaigns for the brainstorming WGC whores:

1) Fade In: Headquarters of a South African Mining Company

Dissolve to: the face of a pin-striped exec, sweat pouring down his flushed face. Between grunts and groans, he yells, "Yes, you're the king... I hate gold... yeah, harder, my king, give it to me....I really hate gold!"

CAMERA PULLS BACK to reveal a bullion banker, his pelvis thrusting back and forth, his own grunts and moans punctuating his raspy exclamations, "Yeah, baby, sell gold...yeah, gold sell, sell gold, baby, gold sell, ohmiGod...Sell!"

Dissolve to a slogan that reads:

"Even Gold producers Hate Gold, Maybe You Should Too!"

Presented by The World Gold Council

2) Fade In: the Bathroom of a South African Gold Producer

A pinstriped exec opens a toilet stall, pulls down his pants, and seats himself comfortably upon a shiny gold toilet.

CAMERA ZOOMS IN SLOWLY upon the gold toilet, while offscreen we hear the grunts and groans of the exec as he responds to the call of nature.

Dissolve to a paragraph that reads:

"Many Years Ago, Lenin Warned the World that Someday Gold would be Used to Make Toilets....

Well, We're Doing the Best We Can to Turn His Dream into a Reality"

Presented by the World Gold Council

3) Fade In: the Parking Lot of a South African Gold Producer

Dissolve to: a group of unemployed gold miners, dressed in tattered clothes, their bodies emaciated from hunger, sitting upon the parking lot, under the hot scorching sun.

ZOOM OUT SLOWLY to reveal the Rolls-Royce driven by a pin-striped exec as it pulls up beside the miners. As the exec exits his luxury auto, the miners raise their hands in a begging gesture. "Food, sir, please some food," we hear their weak cries. Without even looking at them, the exec pulls some gold coins from his jacket and tosses it to the poor, hungry miners. The starving miners are so hungry that in desperation, they devour the gold. Yet, within seconds, they regurgitate the inedible meal.

Dissolve to a slogan that reads:

"GOLD...You Can't Eat It, So What Good is It?"

Presented by the World Gold Council

Thanks

F*

mhchuck (2/11/2001; 18:46:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 48026)
Gold And The Curse Of The Expropriators.
First, I would like to apologize to those who found my interruptions (parenthesized) in I. F. Stone's "The Trial of Socrates" excerpts annoying. I should have saved those rants for this post. The theme is familiar. The Masters, the Manipulators, the Gentlemen, they are all the same.

Consider Governments, Banks, and Organized Crime. None of these entities are producers. Let us call them expropriators. You pay protection to the "Don," you pay taxes to the Feds, you pay interest on non-existent money to the banks. If you fail to pay the mob, you get "rubbed out," if you fail to pay the Feds, you get put in jail, if you fail to pay the banks, you get dispossessed.

Organized crime is characterized by 'primitive' conduct, while Governments and Bankers act more "Gentlemanly." Therefore when the latter is convicted of wrongdoing, they expect to be incarcerated in prisons that resemble country clubs. Not that they are incapable of murder, only that murder is not considered as a first response.

The "Gentlemen" have taken control of gold, which is the measuring device that all producers from time immemorial have used to measure comparative value, and also as a vehicle to store excess production (wealth). The Gentlemen have replaced gold with an artificial, arbitrary system of measures that fluctuate wildly (fiat), the value of which decreases inversely with the passage of time. (The more time that passes, the less value it retains) In other words, the dollar you earned in say, 1985, will purchase maybe 40% less in 2001, than in 1985, when you performed the original labor. IE: Your efforts and their value have been stolen, and still more effort is required of you to support yourself and the unproductive ways of the Gentlemen. A probable reason that gold is anathema to the IMF, World Bank, BIS, etc. and other fraternity organizations of the Gentlemen.

The Gentlemen have gotten "fat" with gold usurped from the producers over the years. One might think I'm speaking nonsense and say, " there is no reason for maintaining this unjust system, as the system could be "otherwise" and the Gentlemen could still live well on what they have." To which I would reply, "yes, that is true, they could live well for a very long time on what has already been expropriated, but then what? They would eventually have to produce to survive, and producing is just not their forte." Hence, true producers are discouraged from "saving" even to the point of it not being allowed (Punishing it). This can be accomplished by destroying the ultimate historic savings vehicle (gold) and to PROMOTE INSTEAD, the lottery known as the NYSE, as the ultimate "savings vehicle." Now here is a raffle system conducted by even more non-producers. It is HERE, that real producers are led to believe that the value of their efforts can be "preserved" by purchasing these raffle tickets called stocks. The problem is that most producers are not skilled in the selection of these raffle tickets whose value also fluctuates wildly. What are known as "insiders" are more likely to profit at this game. These include floor "specialists," bankers who underwrite raffle ticket issues, corporate CEO's, politicians and friends. Bottom line: A true producer can even lose more of his/her productive efforts by participating in this highly touted "savings vehicle," that is in fact not what is purported to be.

As a producer I wish to remain "private," to hopefully develop a positive balance sheet, accumulate savings, and store these earnings/savings in a non-depreciating medium. Gold sounds better than raffle tickets to me, and historically, it has served precisely this function. Then, about 1913, this fraternity of gentlemen comes along that wants to shape history while replacing gold. As to shaping history? They are certainly doing that! As to replacing gold? I think they are NEVER going to accomplish this! In my opinion the Gentlemen have two choices; either to admit defeat, surrendering to the wisdom of gold in economic matters, or resort to a more "primitive" solution to dealing with their dilemma. In the latter case we would see a totalitarianism that the world has never known. It appears the decision has already been made.

Now about this raffle auction known as the NYSE, I am puzzled by it. For here so-called producers go "public," and consequently assume unfathomable "debt." Then Billions upon Billions of shares are issued from which non producers derive untold fortunes in underwriting and sales, with the principles of the corporation also become inordinately compensated, while the public, to whom these raffle tickets are sold, are purchasing the millions and billions of debt that these corporate entities represent�. and all for earnings that are at many times "negative," or when positive, might be .015 cents per quarter.

In past times, "public" corporate entities, I thought, would strive to maintain a positive balance sheet and accumulate as much cash and stockholder equity as possible. This seemed to have changed in the 80's as "public" ownership has passed into the hands of men who strip assets and plunge the company into a "black hole" of debt, enriching themselves at the expense of the raffle ticket holder's who are now in essence holding claims against? You guessed it, NADA!

OK, the "Panglossian" edict, that "This is the best of all possible worlds," (Doctor Pangloss from Voltaire's Candide) has not been lost on me. I accept the world as it exists, but I do not want to play a game where the Gentlemen are dictating to me, " Financially, you must be 'all in'." My fervent desire is to save, and protect the value of the fruits of my labor. I earn more than enough to provide for my needs, I want to SAVE! Yes Mr. Keynes, "save," the word that makes you roll over in your grave. "Save," The word that all expropriators shudder at, because it means that I am not presenting or making my earnings available and vulnerable to their grasp. "Save," because I can make it on my own and don't need a handout, or legislated protection from competition. But because I chose gold as my "savings vehicle," I have seen half of my lifetime earnings negated under the attack of the expropriators.

Live and let live has always been my motto.

The plundering of the producers by the non producers will continue until gold is re-established as a preserver of the fruits of one's labor-----something that has been prohibited by the Gentlemen for most of the last century. After 80 plus years of this insanity, a situation has evolved where the ubiquitous term "World Peace" has become the cloaking device of the expropriators. This is the closest thing to the truth you will ever hear from them, indeed, they certainly do strive for "World PIECE." Gold as money and as a measure of wealth would break the curse of the expropriators.

Hi MK, I read your comment about gold being a 'diversification' of a 'balanced' portfolio and the implication that there was a "proper" ratio. (Sage advice for every person in the world, except, possibly me.) Gold "is" my portfolio for all the reasons above. The only thing I asked of it was to protect my wealth/production. Whether my strategy is/was flawed is another issue. I have taken incredible flak for not buying stocks, in fact, I have at times tried with disastrous results. I never thought I was overextended in gold (nor do I worship it) since it was my plan to put 50% of my earnings in gold and 50% in money market instruments. Having been highly successful at my profession, my losses are quite considerable. I bought Physical at over $500 way back when, but most of my losses have been in mining stocks. My view on mining stocks while not advocating paper, is that they are a claim upon gold in the ground (or at least on the profit margin between production costs and sale price) and if the foot of the Gentlemen were not on the windpipe of most of the mines this would still be the case. I think the performance of unhedged mines in any moderate gold rise will bear out my statement.

The game has been rigged so that the holder of gold needs disaster. What a sad state, that prudent folks are portrayed as pessimists who wish for systemic collapse. Anyway, they can keep what has been expropriated from me. I have learned, and my opinions have been shaped by this experience.

mhchuck.

mhchuck (2/11/2001; 18:09:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 48025)
Pandagold, Empires of the mind, Oligarchies and such.
Hi Panda! You said in #47973

"My argument is not with the rights and wrongs of the condition, or the reasons which motivate those who seek power, I leave that to sociologists. Nature itself is hardly benign."

Well, I did graduate with a degree in Sociology, and while that doesn't make me an expert or guarantee what I say is accurate, it does influence how I view the world. This is part of what I see.

As Machiavelli's "The Prince," is the bible of politics; and as the writings of John Meynard Keynes renders him the Banker's Machiavelli; Know that Plato is the god of the statists, and that Socrates was Plato's teacher.

Below are excerpts from I. F. Stone's, "The Trial of Socrates" (published 1988.) Although much is out of context and subtracts from this well told tale, I am using what I think is necessary to make a point.

From I. F. Stone's "The Trial Of Socrates"

We have graphic contemporary descriptions of what happened. Thucydides is our authority for the events of 411 and Xenophons "Hellenica" for those of 404. The first dictatorship---that of the four hundred----lasted only four months; the second----that of the thirty lasted---eight months. But each crowded many horrors into a short and unforgettable span.

The horrors were not accidental. All through history the narrower the base of the dictatorship, the more dreadful is the terror it feels necessary to maintain itself in power. In 411 and 404, democracy was not overthrown by a popular revulsion but by a handful of conspirators. They had to use violence and deceit to work hand in glove with the Spartan enemy because they had so little support at home. It is against this background that we can better understand a curious denial entered by Socrates in Plato's 'apology.' There he says that all his life long he had avoided taking part in 'synomosiai.' This is translated as 'plots' in Loeb, and in Jowett. But the word deserves fuller explanation if we are to get to the significance of this denial. It derives from the Greek verb that means to take an oath together. It was applied more or less to secret clubs or conspiracies in which the aristocrats bound themselves by oath to help each other and work against the democracy. These 'synomosiai,' Burnet explains in his note on this passage in the apology, were originally devised to secure the election to office of the oligarchic party, and their acquittal when put on trial, (Sounds familiar. What is this CFR anyway?) and which played so great a part in the revolutions at the end of the fifth century B. C."

These aristocratic clubs were notorious. The earliest reference to them is in the "Knights" of Aristophanes where Paphlagonian says " I'll go this instant to the council-board/ and all your vile conspiracies (synomosiai) denounce." The comedy had won first prize in 424 B. C., thirteen years before the first overthrow of the democracy.

The subversive strategy of the aristocratic clubs in normal times is frankly set forth by Adeimantus in the second book of "The Republic." Adeimantus is usually identified as the brother of Plato. "With a view to lying hid," Adeimantus explains to Socrates, "We will organize societies (synomosiai) and political clubs (hetaireias) and there are teachers of cajolery who impart the arts of the popular assembly and the court-room. So that, partly by persuasion, partly by force, we shall contrive to overreach with impunity."

Comment: Wasn't the passage of the Federal Reserve Act in 1913, in essence, the surreptitious overthrow of the Government and Constitution of the United States of America, as established by the Founding Fathers?

Plato, in the 'Laws' provides the death penalty for anyone who would organize conspiracies or clubs to subvert his own ideal city. (Janet "Rambo" Reno would have made quite the enforcer in his ideal city, or their "promised land," as you once referenced it Panda.) But Athens was more tolerant. The right of Association was safeguarded by an Athenian law that went back to the days of Solon. No legal action was ever taken against these aristocratic "clubs," although as Gomme's monumental commentary on Thucydides points out, "only enemies of democracies needed secret organizations."

Comment: Digital Currency (an oxymoron if I ever saw one) will be the preferred method of payment in the Promised Land.

Thucydides relates that when they reached Athens the conspirators found that much of their "business had already been accomplished" by the aristocratic secret clubs. "Some of the younger men" in these clubs had organized squads of assassins to deprive the people of its leaders and to create an atmosphere of terror. They "secretly put to death a certain Androcles," the historian tells us, because he was the most prominent leader of the popular party. Others opposed to their plans they secretly made away with in same manner." Terror spread. People no longer "spoke against them, through fear and it was seen that the conspiracy was widespread; and if anyone did oppose" them, Thucydides says, "at once in some convenient way he was a dead man." These were the prototypes of the death squads the military used in Argentina, El Salvador, and Chile in our time.

Comment: And what of Waco and Ruby Ridge? Kind of makes one wonder about the explosion of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in terms of the Reichstag fire of 1933, in that whoever objects vehemently to this massacre (Waco,) can in a 'twisted' way be implicated in the Oklahoma City tragedy, and subsequently be characterized as a 'right wing' fringe lunatic militia advocate that hides guns and hoards gold. These people are dirty fighters. You have seen their attacks on gold.

Thucydides observes, "The populace kept quiet and were in such consternation that he who did not suffer any violence, even though he never said a word, counted that a gain,"
The terror had a multiplier effect. Imagining the conspiracy to be much more widespread than it actually was, "the democrats (today's conservatives) were "cowed in mind."
"All the members of the popular party," Thucydides explains, "approached each other with suspicion." This was not mere paranoia. There were unpredictable treacheries, as some switched sides from cowardice to opportunism. " There were among them men whom one would never have expected to change over and favour an oligarchy. (Surely not Sir Alan?)

It was these turncoats, the ancient historian relates, "who caused the greatest distrust among the masses and rendered the most valuable service toward the few in securing their safety by confirming in the populace this distrust of their own people toward each other. This was not ancient history to the Athenians when they put Socrates on trial.

Comment: Why do so many deny conspiracies? They are not new. Personally I have nothing against aristocrats or conspiracies, except the fact that the bastards have robbed me.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 17:28:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 48024)
Ride the tiger

Yes the negatives are pouring out thick and fast. Someone must be real scared about this harmless barbaric relic.

However, isn't this what happens before a turn around either way. Just before the Nasdaq hit the top - it was the skies the limit. Yes gold may go down, and more crap about gold will pour forth - but you can only compress a coiled spring so far.

And it is behaving with all the attributes of a near bottom.

If it really is that bad, there will be so many shorts in there, they will block the drain.

Ride the tiger

lamprey_65 (2/11/2001; 17:19:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 48023)
Tree in the Forest
http://www.bookmarkusa.com/daily93.jpg
Timing? Who really knows. As esteemed technical analyst John Murphy noted two years ago on CNBC -- [paraphrasing] "...gold is not a free market."

My GUESS is that the end of March looks like a prime time for a breakout. Winter is historically a weak time for the metal, but buying picks up as spring approaches and with it the Indian wedding season.

The link above shows the '93 gold breakout on a daily chart beginning in March. Notice the price compression on the left side of the chart prior to the breakout.

Yes, I remember it with much fondness!

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 17:19:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 48022)
Et tu Brutus
www.kico.com (miningweb)

Gold going down, next stop $252

NEW YORK -- At 7 minutes past 9 on Friday morning in New York, spot gold skidded below $260 an ounce. A late session recovery brought it back from an intraday low of $258.76 per ounce, but the damage was done and all bets are off for a higher price this year.

The gold market is now in the clutches of unshakeable pessimism and amateur observers are heaping most of the blame on South African gold producers Harmony and Anglogold. Professional traders are more sanguine and see the decline as a resumption of a trend dating to 1996, only briefly interrupted in October 1999 when metal prices surged past $330 per ounce.

In a move predicted by Miningweb last year, Harmony last week disavowed its longstanding rejection of hedging by agreeing to purchase put options on 1 million ounces of gold � two fifths of annual production - as a concession to bankers financing its acquisition of two ailing Anglogold mines. Private investors see the change of strategy as a capitulation by a maverick producer that promised only unfettered faith in the yellow metal. Anglogold's confirmation of its hedging strategy � to sell forward 50 per cent of its production over five years � was widely misinterpreted as additional forward selling.

While private investors are fuming over producer gloom, professionals fed on the news as an excuse to sell more metal. Most of the selling was blamed on producers pouring borrowed gold onto the market in expectation of lower prices in coming months. The heaviest selling came on the New York Commodities Exchange. Dave Meger, senior metals analyst at Alaron Trading noted that a slump in the currencies rates of producer countries was a traditional hedge-selling trigger.

Morgan Paisley, also of Alaron Trading said the ticking down of the gold price was not unexpected after the failure of the usual silver rally at the end of 2000. He also noted that more physical metal had come onto the market in the wake of speculative demand surrounding Y2K. "That metal is coming back."

Paisley is in agreement with fellow traders who see $252 as the critical support level. "Anything below that price is going to unleash a flood of hedging."

Not only will the price decline further, but more mines will fall on the wrong side of the industry cost curve. That may be beneficial in the long-term because it will force the closure of a number of mines that will finally dry up excess supply.

Getting there will be painful and producers are going to find it increasingly difficult to attract capital without paying a large premium. ABN Amro analyst Todd Hinrichs told Barron's that he's given up on gold and will in future be covering manufacturing. "There is nothing positive. It's as bad as it gets," he told the respected investment journal. Similarly, fewer and fewer fund managers are bothering to buy gold shares given the poor outlook and sagging values. Only one of the top ten global producers, Barrick, has a sought after "large cap" valuation while all the others are mid caps with a combined valuation of less than $15 billion.

Some futures traders are forecasting prices as low as $225 this year which would be catastrophic for the entire industry. Market participants have been keenly watching the foreign exchange value of the dollar, but its recovery against the euro since December has left many predicting further pressure on gold until well into the second calendar quarter. More worrying is the apparent inability of gold to fix itself to short euro rallies. On Friday the euro was quoted at 91.80 cents.
This week, dealers are focusing on $258 as the next "stop". If it is breached, then they expect a rapid series of steps down to the $252 level. Thereafter? Anyone's guess.

By: Tim Wood

Is there to be no respite?

Tree in the Forest (2/11/2001; 16:39:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 48021)
USAGOLD, Lamprey_65
Excellent post today Michael. I think you are quite right about this "conspiracy" as more of a coming together of like interests. Perhaps a "semi-conspiracy" would be a better term. Also you said, "Alan Greenspan was absolutely correct in his early writings on gold and the "gold-haters" as he called them." Mr. Greenspan has been the recipient of an incredible amount of hostility and rancor of late on many of the boards. Much has been made of his accepting an additional term as Fed chairman, especially in light of what he surely must know is coming. IMHO he accepted another term BECAUSE he knew what was coming. His desire for a "gold standard" of some sort has not changed. He knows that gold's day is here and he wants to be part of the history of the coming transition. That's why he accepted another term.

A significant chart sir Lamprey. Now can you extrapolate forward the falling wedge to determine the date on which the apex is formed? This could be important information. TIA.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 15:33:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 48020)
Zenidea

It is a waste of time, and non productive, to try and figure out too much in the general political goings on in that neck of the woods. The Chinese people are just like anyone else, their opinions are mostly formed from media input. In Hongkong you get it from both sides.

Many of the established business people were against the take over, as were the civil servants as they feared their jobs or business could be adversely affected. They are only human.

The important thing, at least from my point of view, with China is the way they are pressing ahead with opening the gold market - big market. That excites

When considering politics, always remember EVERY country has its dissenters, and anti establishments, and ones who would rise up given the opportunity.

I do not know of any government that has as its prime interest the welfare of its people. They will do just as little as they have to do to stay in office and serve their masters. Sad, but true.

Of course, one doesn't have to believe it. Life is how you chose to see it - more or less. Someone told me in Hawaii they call the rain liquid sunshine. How sweet, I know what we Brits call it.

Zenidea (2/11/2001; 15:14:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 48019)
Pandagold and Gandaph the White
My hunch is China is already exerting her force through the
HK media simply by subtle changes in tone and gentle words it is using to de-sensitize the populace eg Falun Gong for instance. I mean who was it that was asked to re-explain their interpretation of the "rule of Law" by the recent United Nation visit.

I was there during the change-over and dispite the smiles
fire-works in the media then, I knew of no Hk Citizen who wanted it. I thought it rather ironic really what does the Crown do? Honour its word to give up the lease as it were or honour the wishes of the people and keep her separate and democratic as it were. And as you said Panagold she could waltz in any-old time China likes.

Then China had tanks poised for HK just as she has missiles
pointed at Taiwan right now and quietly increasing.
But I doubt she will act inappropriately until she knows what her position is with WTO. Rattle the Sabre.

I noticed many big busineses in Hk were up-rooting and moving into China ( Cheap workforce) but keeping head offices in HK. Now I am not taking sides on this one but really irks me is the sound of what I interpret to be snivellers in the HK administration to China constantly reported in the media already.

China -WTO- Gold - Zoooooooooooooom !

Ok need to scoot for a few days, Farmwork :)

lamprey_65 (2/11/2001; 14:41:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 48018)
MK
Thank you for your msg#: 48000...a very nice synopsis of what is taking place in the media.

I wonder, however, if the latest spate of negative press is not something more...the timing just seems too coincidental. The price compression which I spoke of earlier today is real and very dangerous to those who need a low POG. As I've said before, we can all agree that the supply and demand situation of gold should mean a much higher dollar price than we now see...unfortunately, the paper pricing mechanism is what we use as a benchmark and it is screaming for a breakout. I believe it was Thursday when short term support broke down DURING THE LAST HALF-HOUR of COMEX trading. This was a concerted effort, imo, to break support. Why? Price compression... there's less and less room for error now. Also, the January rally in stocks looks to be over -- not good for the paper pushers.

Journeyman (2/11/2001; 14:32:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 48017)
Where low gold (and other) prices come from @ALL

Despite what we know here at USAGOLD, it's tempting to jump ship,
particularly if yur gold is leveraged. If you're indeed
leveraged, I don't envy you - - - but you should still try to
hold out for at least the rest of this year. NOT investment
advice, however - - - my karma, you know.

If you understand the process, it makes it easier for you to make
your own judgements as to why what's happening to the gold price
is happening. And it's happening to other physical stuff as
well. The process is particularly pernicious precisely because
it's so hard to see it happening - - - until the emergency panic
erupts as folks find out paper economic promises have been broken
wholesale.

It's simple:

1. Generally "derivatives" work as promises to deliver something
in the future. To the extent these promises aren't or don't
become "naked," that is not covered by actual physical supply of
whatever is promised, this smooths out price fluctuations in the
markets.

2. To the extent these derivatives are "naked" but yet are still
accepted as "good" however, they act equivalently to actual
physical supply of whatever. Since this increases the apparent
supply - - -

3. Because the implicit looming shortages are noticed only by
those who understand that these promises may be hollow, the law
of supply and demand lowers the price of BOTH the promises AND
the actual physical underlying (because they are perceived and
priced identically) and - - -

4. The lower price puts pressure on producers of the "real McCoy"
to A. become more efficient, B. operate at a loss to stay in
business hoping for better days, C. morph into a financial
gambling company (a la American Can Corp morphing into Primerica,
Barrick, Ashanti, Cambior, etc. morphing into hedge funds, and so
forth) which for suppliers means selling forward or for others
going "naked", or D. go out of business. Additionally, F. reduced
prices discourage others from entering the business of producing.
Clearly options C and D exacerbate the pending shortage and F.
prevents external resources from alleviating it.

5. Since the decreasing price which results from treating
promises to deliver and actual supply as if they were the same,
signals just the opposite of what it should signal, the shortage
of the "underlying" is "invisible" to the markets and smoulders
beneath the shingles, noticed by only a few. As a result, when
it finally bursts into flame, it bursts forth as a full blown
confligration like palladium at TOCOM, platinum at COMEX, and
natural gas in the USA. If James Moffett, CEO of Freeport-
McMoRan is correct, an above ground three-week-only supply of
copper may cause one of the next "back-drafts" - - - in copper.

6. We all pretty much know how this all applies to gold don't we?

Regards,
Journeyman

beesting (2/11/2001; 14:23:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 48016)
Another undiscussed way the paper Gold market could crash!
ALL:
Great posts today, I am reminded of the article in "The National Geographic" which states: The most Soveriegn creatures ever to walk the face of the earth, are the "Cats!".....Well let the fur fly against all who belittle the nobliest metal of all....Gold!!!

I hope everyone here is making the time to read all the posts submitted by Sir Chris Powell, concerning Bill Murphy's and GATA's current expedition in South Africa, and here's why.

Mr. Murphy has rallied the leaders of the South African Gold mining Unions to GATA's cause, mainly let the price of Gold reach it's natural equalibrium.
The unionized miners have shown their strong support.

So, what power is created when people unite for a cause?
Well, for the answer to that one go back and look through history to see what people who have united for a common cause have so far accomplished.

If the South African Miners unite(I've read most mining in S.A. is done by unionized workers) and declare a mining strike is eminent unless the "Physical POG" is allowed to reach it's natural supply and demand price, that anouncement alone could trigger such a rally on LBMA or COMEX it might crash the markets.

Lets stop here and borrow a quote made today by Sir Belgian post # 48001,,,"ongoing Gold-Paper War!"

Now if this truly is a "War" and the South African Miners do eventually have to strike, would the Canadian,Australian,American, and other Gold miners from major producing nations support the "War" by also threatening to strike or actually striking once they realize that their jobs are threatened by closures of the mines caused by the collapsing price of "paper" Gold?
I don't know, but the main message here is, A People United for a Worthwhile Cause, can and have changed the courses of history.
Thanks for Reading....beesting.

Chris Powell (2/11/2001; 14:21:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 48015)
GATA Chairman Bill Murphy's letter from South Africa
By Bill Murphy, Chairman
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
Saturday, February 10, 2001

-- Johannesburg, South Africa.

My meeting yesterday with Ms. Phumzile Mlambo Ngcuka,
South Africa's minister for mines and energy, went very
well. Attending the meeting was Thabo Mafoko of the
Department of Minerals and Energy International
Relations. Ms. Ngcuka left directly from our breakfast
meeting to take her seat in Parliament to hear the
opening address by President Thabo Mbeki. I was told
that if she gets her teeth into something, Ms. Ngcuka
will not let go.

Right before Ms. Ngcuka left for Parliament, she
conferred with Mafoko, who then called a friend in
Pretoria, South Africa's capital. It's unusual, having
the capital in one part of the country and Parliament
in another. Ms. Ngcuka felt it was very important that
I present GATA's views to the Finance Ministry and the
Reserve Bank of South Africa. So, on short notice,
Thabo arranged a meeting for me with both agencies for
Monday morning.

Monday should be something. First I have an early-
morning meeting with Sinzeni Zukwann, president of the
National Union of Mineworkers, in Johannesburg,
followed by the late-morning meeting in Pretoria. Then
back to Johannesburg for a South African Broadcasting
Co. interview, followed by a Reuters interview. It will
be good to head for home Monday evening.

GATA's full-page advertisement in Business Day has been
a real plus. Some of the feedback to me:

"Now the low gold price all makes sense."

"The ad's explanation of gold market activity makes it
clear what is happening."

"It's American colonialism all over again."

"Anglogold must be stopped from taking over Gold
Fields."

"It's the English and the U.S. versus the Afrikanners,
blacks, and GATA."

When I get home I will write about the entire trip to
South Africa, which has gone far better than I could
have dreamed. For the moment I am concentrating on the
task at hand: to persuade leading officials to pressure
Washington to respond to our claims specifically, not
vaguely. GATA suggests that they go directly to the U.S
Treasury Department for some answers. This is important
because the U.S. Treasury is a defendant in the
GATA/Howe lawsuit and must decide its course of action
by March 15, the deadline for responding in writing to
the judge in U.S. District Court in Boston.

The new treasury secretary, Paul O'Neil, and President
Bush must decide whether to continue the gold fraud and
be a defendant in the Howe Complaint or to tell the
court that they are going to look into the charges
themselves. An investigation by the new treasury
secretary would be very significant and could indicate
that the jig is almost up. I am stressing this to the
officials I meet. They have a brief opportunity to
influence the direction of the new U.S.
administration.

The significance of Washington's response to South
Africa cannot be emphasized too much. It will affect
not only the economy of South Africa but those of the
whole southern part of the continent. This brings up an
issue Reg Howe focused on when he was in Cape Town.

That is: Who gave the bullion banks, the U.S. Treasury,
and the Fed the authority to make U.S. foreign policy?
By holding down the gold price, the gold cartel is
stifling the economies of southern Africa to benefit
itself. In essence, the cartel is making U.S. foreign
policy. It will come back to haunt the United States in
the years to come.

This is something I intend to cover with David Hale,
global chief economist of the Zurich Group, who was the
keynote speaker at the Indaba 2001 conference last
week. Hale was also the featured speaker at the
Australian Gold Conference last year. After his
presentatio, we chatted for a bit as he knows Frank
Veneroso and read GATA's ad in Business Day. Because
Hale has great in the gold market, he said he would
like to discuss GATA's work in the near future.

It looks like I will be coming back to South Africa in
early July to speak at the 14th Annual Labor Law
Conference in Durban. As many as 2,000 people attend,
and almost every major company that does business in
South Africa is represented. The gold cartel is going
to know that GATA will not go away until we get the job
done.

-END-

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 13:37:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 48014)
Journeyman -Christmas 1914 Wetern Front

You seek references for information on the first Christmas Day on the Western Front 1914 between British and German forces. It is in most British war history books. It has also been recorded on film and has been shown on British TV many times, especially them playing football together.

It is as common knowledge here as is the war itself. But check any British comprehensive war history. You may pull it up on your PC, I haven't tried (no need).

Thanks for the interest.

USAGOLD (2/11/2001; 13:34:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 48013)
Replies. . .
Belgian. . .It would follow that the "raison d'etre" is no different in Europe than it is here. And it is the child of political philosophy not financial portfolio stewardship. The European should own gold for precisely the same reasons the American should own gold, and that is why we are proud to now have a European presence for those who would like to diversify out of the euro as part of their long term portfolio planning.

Usul. . .That reporter in Pennsylvania was doing precisely what I'm talking about -- making the story fit his bias. I view it a far more serious writing crime than plagiarism in that it totally misleads the reader. Under the guise of publishing the facts, the reporter surreptitiously publishes his or her opinion. Is there any difference between what the Pennsylvania reporter lost his job over and what some of the financial reporters did to gold over this past weekend? Fortunately, his editor has principles and might even be of the "old school" in the days before advocacy journalism. There's a place for opinion. It's called the Opinion Page.

FOA. . .I think you are right that many in the mining industry did not know that the path they were on led to the edge of the cliff. Now they do. It will be interesting to see if they are "interested" in saving their industry at this juncture, and if the interest is there, if they are "able" to save it. So far the attempts I am sorry to say are feeble in my view. In their case though FOA, the tuition, as you indicate, might be more than they bargained for. And I really don't have any advice for them.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 13:25:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 48012)
Gondalph the White HK dollar/Yuan

I was as surprised as anyone when I read it. Incidentally, I am e-mailed daily from Hong Kong. I was also a resident of the colony, and Taiwan, and have spent a lot of time in the area, so I take an interest, if only for that alone.

The possibility is not as dramitically remote, I do not believe, as your friend says, but I do not think any change is imminent.

As to you believing that it would have happened on take over, if it was going to happen, I can only say that that would not have been in the spirit of the takeover, it would not have helped the coming together, and it is not in China's interest (Yet).

Remember, China could have taken Hong Kong any time by force for many years. It would have all been over in minutes, without a fight, and once in they would have been difficult to dislodge. They knew that, we knew that.

But it was not in China's interest. The Chinese have great patience as you know, and they believe that all comes to he who waits - or something like that.

The big prize now for China is not to do anything that would upset her entry in WTO. Also she wants Taiwan to see that any coming together can be 'painless', and can be achieved without upheaval (soft word) and that promises will be kept.

Those are my views, and they are built on good information
and personal knowledge. I spent time, and even taught, many government leaders. But the top leadership play their cards close to their chest (as do ours) and very few others know what is going on, until it happens.

Journeyman (2/11/2001; 12:50:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48011)
Killology - - - & references, please! @Pandagold, totalamature
http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm

Hi Panda & totalamature!

In regards to the "war" portion of both your posts, you might find the link in the header quite supportive from some very basic and unexpected quarters, namely military research!

From the link:

"One major modern revelation in the field of military psychology is the observation that such
resistance to killing one's own species is also a key factor in human combat. *Brig. Gen. S. L.
A. Marshall first observed this during his work as an official U.S. Army historian in the Pacific
and European theaters of operations in World War II. Based on his post-combat interviews,
Marshall concluded in his book Men Against Fire (1946, 1978) that only 15 to 20 percent of
the individual riflemen in World War II fired their own weapons at an exposed enemy soldier."

The whole killology site is quite surprisingly instructive on the TRUE nature of humans vis-a-vis killing our own kind and where that killing originates.

totalamature: Do you have any specific references to the statements you make with regards to:

1. The A-bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, particularly the following:

Admiral William D. Leahy, who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at
the time, opposed the use of the bomb, and later recounted, "The use of this
barbarous weapon was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The
Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender." General Dwight
Eisenhower confirmed this in his memoirs, stating that weeks before Hiroshima,
the Japanese had been seeking a way to surrender: "It wasn't necessary to hit
them with that awful thing." Truman's Secretary of State Byrnes gave insight
into why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked: "Demonstrating the bomb would
make Russia more manageable."

2. The Viet Nam "police action," particularly the following:

South Vietnamese military losses exceeded 1 million, and North Vietnamese
losses ranged between 500,000 and 1 million. U.S. bombing in Vietnam was four
times greater than the combined U.S.-British bombing of Germany in World
War II. America dropped 6 million tons of bombs on Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.
The war uprooted and made refugees of up to 10 million South Vietnamese,
roughly half the country's population.

3. The savaging of Iraq, particularly the following:

Secretary of Commerce Robert Mossbacher explained why the U.S. had launched
the most massive airlift in the world's history. Mossbacher said, "Of course
it's about petroleum. Crass or not, it's oil that keeps everybody going."
... during "Desert Storm" only 7% of the bombs dropped on Iraq were "smart."
The Gulf War employed the highest level of bombing in history (around 100,000
tons of explosives dropped in six weeks). ... An American pilot made news
by commenting, "It was like shooting fish in a barrel." Former U.S. Attorney
General Ramsey Clark estimates that the Gulf War killed over 150,000 Iraqi
civilians.

Panda, do you have any specific reference source to the Germans & British celebrating Christmas together during WWI (and the threats they got from the "brass" as a result)? If so, could you post it? If so, thanks!

Regards,
Journeyman

Belgian (2/11/2001; 12:38:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 48010)
USAGOLD - the goldpress
Brilliant...the way you describe the so called goldcomments.
This is exactely what is bothering me here in Europ as well.
The media and amusement are populised (socialised) to their bones. The individual must be brotherised... big. It is not the result of an agenda. It is the result of getting away with the path of least effort. Brainlessness is the new drug. Each time POG, makes a move...they just chant the lazy mantra. The same Pavlov-reflex for every other subject.
I even wonder if it has something to do with conspiracy or socialism. Probably more with something as stupid laziness and indifference as a result of easy wealth taken for granted. To protest is a tiring activity and not instantly rewarded financially. A world fenomina. So be it.

Chris Powell (2/11/2001; 12:32:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48009)
Is GATA cutting off paper gold's escape? (Corrected version)

(Correcting bad line breaks and typo.)

FOA/Trail Guide asks for some elaboration from GATA.
With GATA Chairman Bill Murphy a bit busy at the
moment, raising hell in Johannesburg, I'll do my best
here....

FOA/Trail Guide is probably right that if gold went to
$500, few people in the gold world (outside of GATA,
anyway) would complain that the mechanisms for
manipulating the gold price were still in place.

But what are we at GATA to do? It didn't seem enough
for us to sit back and let nature take its course when
we began to perceive that governments, mining companies, and investment houses were involved in this mechanism. Governments and mining companies have responsibilities beyond themselves -- governments to the public, mining companies to their shareholders and employees and even, especially in mining-dependent areas, to their countries as well.

FOA/Trail Guide is right that GATA may accelerate the
breakdown of the manipulated paper gold market -- that
indeed is our charter, exactly what we set out to do.
If GATA helps "cut off the avenue of escape" from the
paper gold market, so be it. Everything we do is
public, and we've been in business for two years, so
it's not as if people haven't had ample warning. Besides, who should need an avenue of escape except the manipulators, and why should we care if the people who
have brought such misery to the gold world have to
suffer a little themselves?

GATA is assumed to be a bunch a gold bugs, and to an
extent we are. But most of all we are ANTI-TRUST bugs,
FREE-MARKET bugs, and it is from THIS that we claim our
legal and moral standing. It is THIS, and not faith in
gold (as much as we believe in gold's crucial monetary
function), that gives us a chance of succeeding in
ACTION.

Go into a court and say that gold is good and you'll be
asked: So what? Go into a court and say that anti-trust
law is being violated or that shareholders are being
expropriated, and you might get the time of day, or
even a very interesting hearing.

Go into a legislature and say that gold is good and
you'll be looked at as an anachronism at best or a nut
at worst. Go into a legislature and say that the
government is conducting public policy in secret in a
way that is ruining much of the developing world,
including millions of people of color, for the benefit
of a few parasites on Wall Street, and you'll at least
make people nervous; you might even rally a few decent
people to your cause.

Gold IS special, but the kind of trading that distresses FOA/Trail Guide -- the trading in gold's mere price, as opposed to trading in the metal itself -- is hardly unique. Most markets trade this way, commodities and currencies. Speculators pile on for the ride whatever is being traded. As long as there will be trading in gold, there will be speculation.

The difference with gold is that its being more than a
commodity -- its being a universal currency in itself,
a form of money competitive with government-issued
currencies -- always will invite governments to try to
manipulate it or facilitate its manipulation by others.
(By contrast, not even the U.S. Agriculture Department
ever will care much about the commodities exchange price of, say, cocoa or coffee.)

GATA just wants government policy toward gold (and
everything else that is traded) to be plain as day and
for the gold market to be free from manipulation. We
can decide what to do with gold later, once all that is
accomplished. No one in the game now has any excuse not
to know what has been going on, and GATA's objectives
have been clear for a long time. We figure that people
have chosen sides long before now and must be prepared
for the consequences. So "fiat justicia et ruant
coeli."

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

Gandalf the White (2/11/2001; 12:25:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 48008)
More discussion on the HK$ and the China (Yuan) Renminbi
Zenidea (2/11/2001; 8:53:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 47985)
Just natter Pandagold, 47981, me to. thanks.
All : There was an article in a HK newspaper re: HK using the yuan instead of the HK dollar in time.. Immmm its exact contents are somewhat vague , indeed I cant even remember the name of the newspaper..... ( one of those speed read mornings) has anyone come across this story yet ?.
====
Pandagold (2/11/2001; 9:02:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 47987)
Zenidea Yuan/HK dollar
Yes, I did post it yesterday. It was in the South China Morning Post
====
Zenidea (2/11/2001; 9:22:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 47988)
Pandagold
Cheers ! found it msg 47981. So I did brief-read it in a HK newspaper and it wasnt in a dream/nightmare.
China and the WTO's the big one in my mind to watch.
I guess that is not exactly off the cards , I have purchased goods in both places using the others currency at times without to much hassle, including Macau.
====
FWIW -- 'My contact in HK' advises me that the likelihood of the HK$ being replaced with the Renminbi in HK is like the possibility earth turning in the opposite direction ! Which of the two fiat papers is the "stronger" ? There is a reason to keep the HK$, OR it would have been converted over at the time of the HK transition !!!! My 'contact' would have posted on the FORUM, but he fears "losing face" with his ability to transfer thoughts into English !
лл
Xie Xie
----
Ni hao ma, Felips
<;-)

Rockgrabber (2/11/2001; 12:24:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 48007)
Clear as Glass
I have done some reading and, reflecting. This is so simple its actualy surprising. The dollar timeframe is near up. everything coincides perfectly, especially the gold manipulation action currently taking place. Only reason I wish to blabber here is here else do folks listen? I get frusterated when reality is not seen, and here is a good expample. I HATE it when the lies are covering the truth of matters. These lies have spread so far as to now entangle all nations (PREY) of the earth. Nothing goes hidden except for the purpose of being uncovered.
Anyways how about this for cheap gold? Does it get cheaper then this? The sad thing is this... even when the Gold manipulation ends and dollar falls, who is still in controll? The same powers to be will just even be in more controll. If its power and controll that the heart desires,then that is what it will find (case in point). I would hate to have to be in controll of this world when I did not make it or set its laws and niether did they. Why is it they wish to controll something that they dont even know how it works. My point, even when this is exposed, they will just even be better off.! SICK WORLD!

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 12:23:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 48006)
How many spotted it?

Of course I spelled that word incorrectly - I just wonder how many of you spotted it and are tempted to correct me? What word.......? Ah. Just my bit of fun (smile)

Chris Powell (2/11/2001; 12:23:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 48005)
Is GATA cutting off paper gold's escape route?
FOA/Trail Guide asks for some elaboration from GATA.
With GATA Chairman Bill Murphy a bit busy at the
moment, raising hell in Johannesburg, I'll do my
best here....

FOA/Trail Guide is probably right that if gold went to
$500, few people in the gold world (outside of GATA,
anyway) would complain that the mechanisms for
manipulating the gold price were still in place.

But what are we at GATA to do? It didn't seem enough
for us to sit back and let nature take its course when
governments and mining companies when we began to
perceive that governments and mining companies were
involved in this mechanism. Both have responsibilities beyond themselves -- governments to the public, mining
companies to their shareholders and employees and even,
especially in mining-dependent areas, to their
countries as well.

FOA/Trail Guide is right that GATA may accelerate the
breakdown of the manipulated paper gold market -- that
indeed is our charter, exactly what we set out to do. If GATA helps "cut off the avenue of escape" from the paper gold market, so be it. Everything we do is public, and we've been in business for two years, so it's not as if people haven't had ample warning. Besides, who should need an avenue of escape except the manipulators, and why should we care if the people who have brought such misery to the gold world have to suffer a little themselves?

GATA is assumed to be a bunch a gold bugs, and to an
extent we are. But most of all we are ANTI-TRUST bugs,
FREE-MARKET bugs, and it is from THIS that we claim our
legal and moral standing. It is THIS, and not faith in
gold (as much as we believe in gold's crucial monetary
function), that gives us a chance of succeeding in
ACTION.

Go into a court and say that gold is good and you'll be asked: So what? Go into a court and say that anti-trust law is being violated or that shareholders are being expropriated, and you might get the time of day, or even a very interesting hearing.

Go into a legislature and say that gold is good and you'll
be looked at as an anachronism at best or a nut at worst. Go into a legislature and say that the government is conducting public policy in secret in a way that is ruining much of the developing world, including millions of people of color, for the benefit of a few parasites on Wall Street, and you'll at least make people nervous; you might even rally a few decent people to your cause.

Gold IS special, but the kind of trading that distresses FOA/Trail Guide -- the trading in gold's mere price, as opposed to trading in the metal itself -- is hardly unique. Most markets trade this way, commodities and currencies. Speculators pile on for the ride whatever is being traded. As long as there will be trading in gold, there will be
speculation.

The difference with gold is that its being more than a commodity -- its being a universal currency in itself, a form of money competitive with government-issued currencies -- always will invite governments to try to manipulate it or facilitate its manipulation by others. (By contrast, not even the U.S. Agriculture Department ever will care much about the commodities exchange price of, say, cocoa or coffee.)

GATA just wants government policy toward gold (and everything else that is traded) to be plain as day and
for the gold market to be free from manipulation. We
can decide what to do with gold later, once all that is
accomplished. No one in the game now has any excuse not
to know what has been going on, and GATA's objectives
have been clear for a long time. We figure that people
have chosen sides long before now and must be prepared for the consequences. So "fiat justicia et ruant coeli."

CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

-END-

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 12:14:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 48004)
Manipulation in action

This is an add on to my post #47972

Hope it helps those who doubt manipulation to understand

If a small guy can do it, think........expand the mind

Here is another VERY simple manipulation story � a true one, and I saw it work. I was living at the time in Boca Raton, Florida, which, as anyone familiar with that area will know is heavily populated by those, whose ethnic origins I will not disclose, but if they attended the house of God for other than marriages or Bahmitzfas it would be on a Saturday.

A member of this community with whom I had become acquainted, and who had made himself a small fortune on the stock market, sufficient to allow him to retire in this expensive neighborhood - by the beach overlooking the ocean, took me under his wing and set out to show me some of the realities of the investing world.

I will share with you just one of my experiences, but from it you can extend the principle in whatever direction your fancy takes. Just let your mind float free.

Well, this particular day he took me down to the brokers early. There the brokers were like mini exchanges. There were comfortable seats, computers scattered around the place for personal use, and a running ticker tape set high on the wall facing the seats.

The computers provided all the information supplied to their brokers who took your order and executed immediately - online trading for the individual at that tim was not as wide spread as today.

He (my friend) was trading a small Hollywood movie studio, and he pulled up the trading information on the screen - price volume - up/down ticks - delta - you name it.

He then went to the broker and placed an order and told me to watch the screen. Sure enough it showed the trade and as it was low cap the price jumped a little. He then reminded me of the story of the sniper and three on a match. That is the first 'ligh't, he said and alerts all those little traders throughout America sat at their screens watching for a 'kill'. (something coming to life)

After a few minutes he placed another order, and the price jumped again. Now, he said, that's the second light, they are aiming their rifles (fingers on the mouse trigger).

A few more minutes he placed another larger order. Same result, and before he could say anything, I said it for him � "FIRE!". Sure enough, but here there was more than one sniper - if it had been real rifles they would have sounded like a machine gun.

Then he calmly nodded to the broker who sold him out. How much he made that day, he didn't disclose but I worked it out to well in four figures.

Fellow knights, I harbour no false illusions about life, and especially about financial markets, or anything that involves large amounts of money. and that I have bequeathed to my children.

I say to you, there is still money to be made even in this gold market. I told you of one
mining share on which you could have almost doubled your money this last week � yes in one week. No, I am not naming it, I gave you clues,as we must not promote. Physical gold bought at today's price even will give you a higher return within two years time far higher than any bank or government bond. I feel confident.

Taking the sniper analogy � it is timing, timing, timing. It's not easy, but if you treat it as a profession, or game of skill, it is fun and rewarding � especially today.

Good shooting to all

Usul (2/11/2001; 12:07:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 48003)
@USAGOLD
http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/010210/reporter_f.html
I believe this story may have some bearing on your posting.
"Reporter Fired for Fabricating Facts - 4:45 pm, Saturday February 10" - but, should I believe it? Hmmmm....

Journeyman (2/11/2001; 12:06:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 48002)
Excellent post!@Pandagold msg#: 47973
http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm

Hi Panda!

Great post!!

Also consider that the internet and especially cable TV, especially here in America, have broken up the media monopoly of the "Three Sisters" (ABC, CBS, NBC) that we used to have. There has been somewhat of a shattering of the American consensus as a result, and I believe this has been becoming more and more apparent, beginning even with the Gulf Massacre.

George Herbert Walker "Butcher of Baghdad" Bush mucked around for months trying to find a consensus war slogan. Finally, after launching many lead balloons, he settled on "Support Our Troops." Heck, that slogan would work just fine for Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hitler. The only alibi Americans would half-way buy, much too close to the truth for comfort, was that it was to protect the oil.

Of course there were those poor liberal dupes who bought the high theatre brought by the disguised daughter of the Kuwaiti King claiming Iraqi soldiers were stealing incubators out of the hospitals and leaving the preemies on the floor to die. Etc. It was enough to fool congress (doesn't take much) into endorsing the morphing of Desert Shield into Desert Storm.

And after assuring said congressional dupes that he only wanted to be sure Saddam, his former ally, got the message and would never actually attack unless necessary, launched Desert Storm within the week. Polls showed people weren't in favor of Desert Storm, but once the coverage began, things changed.

The bombing of Kosovo and Serbia had to have been effective when they were because there was a massive anti-war movement mobilising in the background.

What TPTB will tell you, "What we learned in Viet Nam is that it's impossible to wage a war without public support." But, since public support can no longer be so easily gained, they do the next best thing; simulate it. But that only works until the demonstrations begin, which apparently now takes two and a half to three months. This is now their window of opportunity to wage an unpopular "police action."

High regards,
Journeyman

P.S. Of course, an embattled president can still get away with ordering a few Tomahawk missiles fired at a foreign pharmaceutical plant or some other such target to draw attention away from his personal peccadillo of the moment.

Belgian (2/11/2001; 12:04:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 48001)
Trying to understand......
Thanks Panda. I do get your point. It explains the filosophy
behind the act of papering gold. But I want to know how they are doing it : the mechanism ! I want to know if and how the system will kill itself. Not only for academical education, but as argument for investment decission.

Why physical gold and why not goldmines. What percentage do we allocate to gold-value-preservation ? The more one understands and detects evidence...the higher one dares to engage in what he believes. Isn't it exactely, what this forum is all about ?

Dollar/Euro/Oil : is POG's abnormal behaviour a serious side-effect of the USA's fear of loosing dollar-dominance, to an Euro, wich gets more and more body ? A series of facts might confirm this thesis :
- US allied euro-haters as UK + Switserland, are selling (?) gold.
- USA silence about EMU.
- France's involvement in Oil for Euros.

Will the European Union + other worldpowers, decrease their 75% dollar-reserves in favor of Euros + gold ?
Will the USA be left alone with the enormous DollarDebt + trade deficit ? Will the world softly de-dollarise ?
Why isn't FOA not adding more evidence on his (excellent) theory ?
How strong has the Europeon Union to become before it is a worthy dollar-rival ? Will this shift in influence be the death knell for the dollar and the rise for a free POG ?
Is the USA in desperate search for new allies, who want to undergo dollarisation and therefore ready to sell their gold (to the usa?) ? How can we find out if US Bullion Banks + Deutsche bank are accumulating physical gold, during the ongoing gold-paper war ? What possible hiding-mechanism, exist to hide and cover such a probable accumulation ?

The complete disconnection of POG and POO must have a very deep significance. Is oil the bone wherefore the two dogs, USA/EUROP (dollar/euro) are fighting for ? Is oil the visual battle field for the hidden increasing rivalary?
If oil can be paid in Euros as well as in dollars...why does the world needs dollars for ? Is Japan still forced to keep its dollar-reserves in exchange for military protection.? Is the future creation of a European army, the start of the dollar decline ? Or shall the USA, provoque a war to delay such a European force ? Does anyone see some indications (now) that underpin FOA's theory ?

Thanks for sharing these fundamental insights ! I am altough desperate for direct or indirect evidence.

USAGOLD (2/11/2001; 10:54:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 48000)
On the Recent Anti-Gold Articles: How Did They All End Up with the Same Lead. . .
If you were to take the FT, Barron's and Bloomberg articles and put them side by side, you would see that they are all structured the same way as if the writers were following some sort of an outline where only the specifics were left to the writer's discretion. I was just quoted in a Dow Jones News Service article with virtually the same lead and it was written two weeks ago. Does it mean that one copied the structure from the other? Does it mean that the facts led all three to the same conclusion? Or does it mean the theme was orchestrated? Or is there some other explanation?

Often observers with an eye for structure see similarities in behavior in seemingly disassociated individuals and/or institutions and immediately expand the presence of structure to identify it as "conspiracy." In my youth, I too gravitated toward that conclusion, or at least entertained its possibility having been nurtured on the likes of Ferdinand Lundberg. I've gotten beyond that. Now, I see that often similar positions in life, business and finance generate similar behavior as an evolution or function of mutual self interest. In this case, I believe that several writers with the same political bias saw a nifty way to stick it to the gold and its advocates, and wrote variations on a theme.

Let's examine that at its center:

It is well known that the mainstream press harbors a heavy liberal bias whether they sit at a keyboard or in the boardroom; whether their offices are located in New York or London. We underestimate the opposition if we believe that they are not intelligent enough to discern that gold represents the opposite of what they would like to see in our institutions, governmental or otherwise. Yes, we know about gold and its virtues. But so do they. They also know "their" goals and aspirations.

To wit:

They are statist; gold is anti-statist.

They support big government; gold supports the individual.

They push socialism; gold pushes liberty.

They want control from the center; gold takes control away from the center.

They want dimunition of the individual; gold exalts each person as his or her own master.

They represent equality and 'fitting-in', i.e., the leveling effect; gold represents personal achievement and wealth.

They represent control of the masses through the written word; gold represents the escape route from that control.

They understand that government issued fiat money is an instrument of political and economic control. They also understand that private ownership of gold separates its owner from that system of control, and they can't abide it. Thus the relentless attacks on what is seemingly a harmless, chemically inert precious metal.

That's the motivation.

So why would we think that these people would ever write anything positive about gold? Why are we always so surprised? So indignant? (Myself included.) Gold represents everything they fear and have spent their careers de-constructing or trying to "wash" away. They know what it would mean if the population flocked to gold. It would mean that they and their cohorts had failed -- that the socialist agenda had failed. As such, it is the symbol of their demise. So they push their anti-gold agenda with all the resources at their disposal. Alan Greenspan was absolutely correct in his early writings on gold and the "gold-haters" as he called them. We shouldn't be surprised when they vent their hate for gold and all that it represents.

I sat down to read to the Sunday paper this morning and got about half way through before I realized I was being programmed with every other social cause on the liberal agenda these days, including a lengthy justification of the Clintonista pillage of the White House. (Pillaging the White House is a qaudrennial affair, they say. Even Millard Fillmore did it!) I am no longer surprised by this. I no longer allow the temperature to rise. If one de-spins the articles, reads between the bias, you can patch together events with some effort, so I keep reading hoping to find useful information somewhere in all this. I no longer let it bother me. I simply understand the nature of the mainstream media these days, and feel sorry only for the "innocents" who accept its highly politicized posturing and pontification as genuine journalism. They are not. Like many, I flee instead to the comfortable confines of the internet.

By the way, most of the recent anti-gold articles start with this left field assertion about gold investors -- that they flocked to gold thinking they were about to have their 'hey-day' etc. only to have their hopes dashed by their own -- the gold mining companies. Etc. The carefully crafted message is: "Don't go into gold only to be smashed against the windshield -- bugs that you are -- stick with stocks and bonds and this wonderful fiat money we have created for you. We know that faith in it must be maintained whether that faith is justified or not; whether you might be financially destroyed by it or not." And they never fail the opportunity to drive that message home over and over again.

Meanwhile, at the center of the action, the place where people are actually making gold purchases, I can say that there hasn't been much discussion about gold having its day in the sun -- as in the day after tomorrow. So I for one can say without equivocation that their lead is preposterous and I don't know where they got it from. Most gold buyers are looking to the long term and have commented, if anything, on the absurdly low price for portfolio insurance. Despite what the press says, nearly 100% of the individuals purchasing gold from us are purchasing for insurance purposes, not short term capital gains. The mainstream financial press keeps driving that mantra home, while in reality, the subject of "profits" isn't even on most gold owners' radar screens. The price looks right. Therefore they are buying. When the price drops, quite often they buy more and average down.

As this forum has proven, gold advocates are not what the press describes at all, but some of the more intelligent investors around with a deep concern about the direction this society has taken. Far from the fatigue wearing militia type hunkered down in his bunker surrounded by ammunition and canned food, or the wild speculator hoping for gold to go to the moon, the gold owner is their prototype reader -- the physician, the dentist, the hardware store owner, the military officer, vetenarian, and corporate types, in other words the financially conservative, hard-working professional and business class in this country, a far cry from what the mainstream press would have you believe. And all this individual wants to do is diversify themselves from the economic system in case it should fail. I've never understood why the press and Wall Street and "the City" begrudge us that.

I don't know what the above referenced articles are referring to, but its not the gold market I'm involved in. Until they pick up the phone and talk to people like me, or at the other firms dealing with the gold buying public, they are not going to get the real story. In fact they are guessing. As I said in so many words, it is the nature of propaganda to have an agenda -- the story written and the conclusion drawn before one even sits down to the keyboard. And the story they print on gold and its owners could not be further from the truth.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (2/11/2001; 10:47:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 47999)
totalamateur,.....I read your latest sermon, er post.....
and I pray you will get the help you need.

Old Yeller (2/11/2001; 10:15:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 47998)
Harmony put options

I may have missed this but just how is Harmony paying for the recently announced put option purchase?Have their financial backers convinced them to sell out the money call options in much greater quantities a la Ashanti and Cambior?

Isn't it funny how the vendor of the properties that is creating this need of financial "insurance" is Anglogold;creating a double whammy right at a critical juncture.In addition,this obviously bearish development is sandwiched around a plethora of "gold is dead" stories.

Sancho (2/11/2001; 10:13:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 47997)
(No Subject)
TEDW-Re your post 47979 on inflation numbers and people
falling through cracks--I could tell some truly amazing
items but I tend to get too wordy. Let me just say this,
use extension cords or something but try never to call an
electrician to fix a $l.50 outlet.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 10:11:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 47996)
Trail Guide

In your letter to Michael the following part caught my eye ( so did the rest)
".............. Thank goodness we are at the end of the end and entering that beginning! The political process that's now on trend is doing just that. In every political motivation, found in the Old World'

The words of Sir Winston Churchill came to mind:-

" ........Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.

(Speech at the Mansion House, London, 10 November (1942), in The End of the Beginning ( (1943)) p. 214 (on the Battle of Egypt)

Could they, perhaps, be applicable here?

Sancho (2/11/2001; 10:10:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 47995)
(No Subject)
TEDW-Re your post 47979 on inflation numbers and people falling through cracks--I could tell some truly amazing items but I tend to get too wordy. Let me just say this, use extension cords or something but try never to call an electrician to fix a $l.50 outlet.

Sancho (2/11/2001; 9:59:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 47994)
(No Subject)
Pandagold-re your post 47984. Excellent. Even one person or entity with an account at each of 2 or 3 or more stockbrokers, could buy and sell certain stocks back and forth to himself in increasing or decreasing amounts and create activity (greed and grief, hope and despair) that otherwise did not exist. No doubt not new. A terrible thought: Maybe the health of the metals markets is many times worse.......

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 9:52:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 47993)
tedw

I go for your last stated option - 100% I accept the American Indian's opinion of government - "Paleface speak with forked tongue" Huh!

barnacle bill (2/11/2001; 9:46:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 47992)
totalamateur
from the Random House College Dictionary:

Summarize: 1) to make a summary of; state or express in a concise form. 2) to constitute a summary of.

tedw (2/11/2001; 9:44:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 47991)
Gold manifpulation, ESF,Bush Administration and Reginald Howe

It appears that we now have an administration that truly wants to do the right thing for the most part.

If you accept that premise, then illegal price manipulation by the ESF as alleged by Reginald Howe should be ending or has ended.

Either that or it never existed in the first place. Or the new administration is also corrupt.

Take your pick

Trail Guide (2/11/2001; 9:41:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 47990)
Comment
http://www.nyt.com/pages/world/index.html

USAGOLD (2/10/2001; 9:45:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 47938)
Winter Thoughts on Another Thoughts

-----------

Hello Michael,

Thanks for taking some Saturday time to digest our subject. It is all consuming, isn't it? I think it's obvious to anyone reading it (background post on TrailsPage) that the post is structured in "rough draft form". I started to define it into a real publication and realized such a work would quickly grow to over 20 pages (smile). Later, I stopped and just posted the general thought outline. Besides, defining today's modern events is a job for each individual reader that comes here and is what I truly hope they will accomplish. My hope is that the play we are all viewing is engaging enough to draw people to think, as Another so wanted everyone to do.

For yourself, Michael, I see you had absolutely no problem defining your thoughts as your post above clearly described. By the way, try to read Mr. Roger Cohen's piece on the NY Times News Service link above. Titled; Europe's Shifting Role Poses Challenge to U.S.,,,,, excellent conclusions
and he's just a step or two behind your steps. I can see him in your dust on that blazing trail. (grin))

I think one of the most difficult understandings for all of us to grasp lies in perceiving the rising value of physical gold while the dollar world around us keeps telling a different tail. People that pay the cash price today, for the advantage of having gold, then sell that gold into a falling paper marketplace are doing no different than the mines do. That is selling hard reserves into Another's
pocket and doing it for almost a free price. Losing the very same wealth that the paper goldbugs lose as they, in parallel, move in and out of paper contracts. All in a vain attempt to circumvent the effects of a dying dollar gold market.

In doing this they are just playing the same trading game Western investors have been conditioned to do so very well. In the process they will end up with impaired balance sheets when they need real assets the most; when this currency / political transition breaks into the open. In your piece on
the News & Views page, you outline the sad nature of a gold industry being taken to the cleaners because their inability to step away and consider what is being done to them. Absolutely correct perception and well structured thought!

Yet, in retrospect, this is a common problem in any business that's in operation to make a paper profit, isn't it? The trouble, in our gold arena, is in how investors have been lead to perceive gold mines as personal gold reserves. But someone forgot to tell them that these entities must function or die. And for a mine to function they must sell gold into the same currency market that is used to price their equity.

I guess people didn't "think hard enough or long enough" about how that would work if the vast metal contract markets grew so large that trading the contract superseded the validity of receiving the mine's product (gold). In other words, as paper supply grew, paper prices fell and most holders simply took their losses as they dumped the paper holdings. Never taking delivery because they didn't want it and even, at times, running from it! All in a perfectly legal use of the system as it is structured. Such performance leaves open an easy door for non-hard money traders to make a "business man's profit" by exploiting said dynamic. Of course this trend was encouraged by the CBs. But, that encouragement or conspiracy as some call it, is no different than a governments encouragement of turning the Arizona desert into a playground with water. Ha! Ha! It's all in how we see and feel the effects, isn't it?

Investors forgot that only a few short years ago, a world currency was treated in the exact same manner as our contract gold markets today. Randy, ORO, yourself and many others all understand this well. The dollar was over printed and traded until everyone simply traded it's price (exchange
rate) and no one was taking enough gold delivery to shut the system down. Same dynamic, as you so well know, my friend.

Back then, just as today, paper gold, those paper dollars as they were called, became the denominator of gold's value without the discipline of a physical exchange to right the misconception. We all know the results and it's eventual consequences. Perhaps the beginnings of today's final death march into the sunset of our currency. A Timeline end, so to speak.

Today, miners sell their product for a cash price because that was the "business plan" they signed up for and it included using this paper pricing system. No one would squawk one bit at how wrong it all is if gold was at $500! Yet, the same logic to end the terrible practice would still exist. I wonder if Criss Powell could address that segment for us? It does need discussion if only a supposition, right?

Further, I suspect their actions, GATA may be opening a can of worms that could accelerate the very process I have been describing. Quickly cutting off the avenue for many to escape the paper strangle hold?

One more thought for everyone:

If mines had charted their companies to sell the product outright and retail, the problem would not have changed because we all would still trade their product (gold) at the contract paper price. Trying not to own the metal, just trade the price, no?

------------

Back to your thoughts, MK,

The only near term hope for gold is in a restructuring of gold trade, worldwide. Thank goodness we are at the end of the end and entering that beginning! The political process that's now on trend is doing just that. In every political motivation, found in the Old World, the need for physical gold to be valued in modern life terms is evident. Yet, this completely conflicts with every Western agenda that demands gold remain within it's perceived dollar commodity price band. Ironically, if the West were to somehow win, leveraged gold bugs would make only inflation adjusted gains. Something in their view that would be just fine. Indeed, the very system they deplore would pay them their due.
Conversely, if the Euro faction wins, Physical Gold Advocates would enjoy outsized real gains along with future dollar inflation gains. Fortunately, for Gold Advocates, physical gold will win the day anyway. Not because we are playing a world game, but because the natural laws of physics are ending the dollar's time.

As we look down this path, I see nothing but a one-way trend as gold traders are cleaned and gutted by their own desire to play leverage in the very paper market that's being restructured. To this end Western Thinking will morph (that word again) into a new understanding of what is real and what is not. For most, that education will require a big price before it's completed. But then again, just look at the cost of many years in college? Perhaps learning is always expensive? (big smile)

Thank you, my friend and everyone for reading
Yes, Wintering well.

FOA, just a simple TrailGuide

Zenidea (2/11/2001; 9:26:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 47989)
oops 47901
:)

Zenidea (2/11/2001; 9:22:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 47988)
Pandagold
Cheers ! found it msg 47981. So I did brief-read it in a HK newspaper and it wasnt in a dream/nightmare.
China and the WTO's the big one in my mind to watch.
I guess that is not exactly off the cards , I have purchased goods in both places using the others currency at times without to much hassle, including Macau.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 9:02:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 47987)
Zenidea Yuan/HK dollar

Yes, I did post it yesterday. It was in the South China Morning Post

Mexpat (2/11/2001; 9:01:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 47986)
FOA/Trail Guide - Background No. 2
Hello all..Greetings from sunny southern Mexico.

Although I've never posted here, I've been lurking around this forum for quite some time and feel my understanding of the relationship between Oil,the Dollar,the Euro and Gold has been substantially enhanced by the the postings of the many articulate participants, particularly FOA/Trailguide. I also really appreciated Oro's #47834 the other day re: Jude Wanninski's error. Wanninski's position has been bothering me for a long time and Oro's post clarified for me what seems to be the error in Jude's thinking.

I've been rearranging my portfolio over the last year, shifting more of my investments (Ok..speculations) from mining stocks into bullion and more of my cash from dollars and pesos into euro denominated currency funds and euro denminated gov't bonds. The discussions here on the forum are helping me to feel more comfortable with my present positions as the current changes in the global financial structure unfold.

Usually, if I read the material carefully and ponder it a while the meaning becomes clear but one paragraph in FOA's recent posting went over my head, particularly the last sentence...this is the paragraph:

FOA (02/09/01; 14:29:38MT - usagold.com msg#60)
Background part 2

Further; its no mistake of identification in understanding the ECB / BIS roll in all of this. That the ECB has started cashing in all it's interest on dollar reserves points to a new direction in currency warfare. Our own Randy@ The Tower has documented this for some time. In addition, their
marking gold to market is a prerequisite to following the Fed's new inflation stance by scoring the dollar against the Euro gold price once the paper gold markets fail.

Perhaps FOA or another of the forum's knowledgable posters could break down that last sentence a little for me. What are the mechanics of marking gold to market? Has this already been done? Could someone please clarify and perhaps expand on "scoring the dollar against the Euro gold price once the paper gold markets fail". This is the phrase I can't quite get my mind around.

Thanks...I, for one, really appreciate the effort put into the posts on this forum.

Zenidea (2/11/2001; 8:53:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 47985)
Just natter
Pandagold, 47981, me to. thanks.

All : There was an article in a HK newspaper re: HK using the yuan instead of the HK dollar in time.. Immmm its exact contents are somewhat vague , indeed I cant even remember the name of the newspaper..... ( one of those speed read mornings) has anyone come across this story yet ?.

All. My wife is still wondering over the globe at the moment
and I decided to get particular with the home-cleaning before she fly's in. And guess what I found ! One 10 oz-er Au and 10 oz AG coin hidden beneath the bottom draw !!.
Immm how many months till my birthday ?. oohh she a good wife :). Just wondering how she slid that through the books.
happy , happy !.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 8:52:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 47984)
Belgian #47972 and all

I don't know if this will put you on the right track, it may help. Thoug I have knocked it out quickly as I need to plan my action today for next weeks market. So I sit with my coffe, cigar, and my just run-off charts.

Economics talks of supply and demand usually as though it was natural free forces at work. And so, theoretically it is. However, those in the auction game know how a demand, and a value, can be stimulated by putting what appears to be a legitimate transaction through, that has been previously set up merely to arouse interest, and excitement.

A simple example (and it is simple) is say where I have been accumulating paintings
of a little known, but not too prolific, artist at ridiculously low prices. Now, as part of a big network, I put one through the auction. Members of the network are then bidding against each other to raise the price to an amount that will stir publicity. This now causes interest so others start bidding when next this artist comes up at the auctions. Plus people will be scouring the galleries trying to find the artist's works.

Even new artist's under 'contract' to some benefactor can be promoted this way and a demand, and value, is created.

This was exposed in the UK within the 'top of the pops' music (discs, tapes) market. Members of a team would go round the big outlets buying up large quantities of a particular artist to be promoted. Consequently a false popularity rating was established.

Toys like Beannie Babies can be hyped and marketed in such a way that a real, yet paradoxically, false demand is created.

All, I ask is that you see how these basically simple practices can be extended into the precious metals market (or any market). Many times the buying and selling is between the elite network working as a team. No matter how much they pay out, it only circulates within the network. Here we are talking far bigger stakes, and who owns, or controls the financial 'auction' houses?

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 8:06:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 47983)
The never ending story
www.Kitco.com or FT.com

The following can be found on the FT site or Kitco

LEX COLUMN: Gold LEX COLUMN
Financial Times, Feb 10, 2001

Gold

Last February, gold bugs harboured hopes that the long bear market in the precious metal was coming to an end. Europe's central banks promised to limit sales while producers such as Placer Dome and Anglogold said they were reducing hedging (in other words, forward sales). The gold price jumped a tenth in two days, hitting Dollars 315 a troy ounce. Exactly a year later, it is barely Dollars 260, its lowest level since September 1999.

It turns out, that despite their noble intentions, the gold miners have continued to hedge, which suggests they do not believe in a firmer bullion price. Central bank selling has also continued, though the culprits are probably non-Europeans; in 2000, supply to the market from government sources rose 17 per cent, while mine production and scrap supply were both flat. On top of that, the recent Indian earthquake has raised fears of reduced demand from what is usually one of the world's largest and steadiest end markets.

Gold's problems, however, go deeper. Not only is the yellow metal no longer at the heart of the world's financial system; even its value as a hedge in uncertain times is coming into question. The UK Treasury told parliament this week that reducing the weight of gold in the Bank of England's portfolio has actually served to reduce the portfolio's level of risk. Gold has become a marginalised currency that is still in search of a new - and probably much lower - fair value.

Copyright � The Financial Times Limited

I can only add that I hope it reaches 'fair value' level ASAP. Then we can move on.
In the meantime, please whoever is messing out there, please give us a little more volatility, as I have remarked before, watching grass grow is best left to cows.

What is coming to pass, I fear, is what I thought when GATA started to put its word into action. I knew they (the 'elite' ) in their resolve to push their agenda would not be deterred, but would be angered and show it, They would also ensure there was enough counter evidence to shift the blame, and muddy the water.

SALMON (2/11/2001; 7:59:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 47982)
@Panda 47973

Good thoughts for Sunday morning.
Thank you for sharing.

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 7:36:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 47981)
Totalamateur

There was a song many years ago that had the lyrics, 'it's not what you do it's the way that you do it'. I believe also that it can be extended to-'it's not what you say it's the way that you say it'.

This has been brought home to me on this forum, when I found that some, not all, were just not ready for things I have revealed. Yet, in my mind, it has never been my intention to do anything but get a reader to think, and search out the truth.

I have tried, without putting too much direct, explicit, information, or finger pointing, to get a reader to come up with their own answers as to where the problems lie. I have found, to my cost, this is not easy.

Almost everyone is beginning to accept that something is wrong that doesn't add up, that doesn't conform to rationale based doctrines. Those that don't struggle on, and frustrate themselves, by trying to apply the rational to the seemingly irrational.

However Sir, while acknowledging that sandwiched within that extended tirade of released pent up feeling, are some undeniable truths, what comes to mind are the modern idioms of TMI, and overkill.

I can empathise with how you feel, and I am sure you have a growing number of followers out in that wide world, however, I feel it is a bit heavy both in material and length for these columns. Also the verbosity, like too thick a bread slice, causes the 'meat' to get lost in the sandwich. I may be wrong, it is just a slight twitchy feeling in the back of my neck.

I do hope I have not offended, Sir, it is not my intention, far from it. I wish you well.

tedw (2/11/2001; 7:16:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 47980)
Gas
http://www.usagold.com

People are not going to be buying the inflation numbers.

Heres an example. An older man near my mother has a wife who had a severe stroke. As a result he has to care for her and keep the house warm. He was an insurance salesman and did well in his younger days. Like many older Americans, his house is paid for.

However, this last month his gas bill was $300. That represents 1/2 of his inome. He is depressed.

No matter how the government says that inflation has risen,
(excluding energy and food costs) he is not going to believe them.

This, also, is a tragedy. And Im sure there are many older Americans just like him.

tedw (2/11/2001; 7:16:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 47979)
Gas
http://www.usagold.com

People are not going to be buying the inflation numbers.

Heres an example. An older man near my mother has a wife who had a severe stroke. As a result he has to care for her and keep the house warm. He was an insurance salesman and did well in his younger days. Like many older Americans, his house is paid for.

However, this last month his gas bill was $300. That represents 1/2 of his inome. He is depressed.

No matter how the government says that inflation has risen,
(excluding energy and food costs) he is not going to believe them.

This, also, is a tragedy. And Im sure there are many older Americans just like him.

Hi-Hat (2/11/2001; 7:08:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 47978)
totalamateur ------- Vibrations
It is a rare individual who can post as two seperate entities on the same Forum. You are not one of them.

totalamateur (2/11/2001; 6:54:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 47977)
Hear ye, Hear ye: "The USA, -- Closing down sale! It's all got to go!"

"Why the US (and the once mighty "Green Paper Pig" dollar) deserve to lose their position in the World."

WOE TO AMERICA!

"O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us" (Jeremiah 6:26).

In our lifetime we have witnessed dramatic demonstrations in major cities throughout the United States by modern day prophets wearing red sackcloth, ashes and yokes, mourning America's sins and warning of her impending doom. God has shown that the Bible's Book of Jeremiah is His message for America today. Jeremiah was backslidden Israel's prophet of judgment and woe. He bewailed his country's fallen state and coming fate, for God had told him in no uncertain terms,

"I will utter My judgments against them touching all their wickedness, who have forsaken Me, and have burned incense unto other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands" (Jeremiah 1:16).

God told Jeremiah to wear an ox yoke around his neck as an illustration to his nation of its coming bondage to the rising world empire of Babylon, led by King Nebuchadnezzar:

"Thus saith the Lord to me; Make thee bonds and yokes, and put them upon thy neck" (Jeremiah 27:2).

Similarly, the yokes worn today when conducting sackcloth demonstrations symbolize America's coming bondage to the rising New World Order, which according to Bible prophecy, will be led by the soon-to-be-revealed Antichrist world dictator.

When this warning is being proclaimed people often ask, "Why would God judge America?--Isn't the U.S. better than most other countries?" The answer is simple: Because the U.S. has had more light, more true Gospel, more genuine Christianity than any other nation on earth, she is more accountable to God. And because she has rejected that light and forsaken her faith, she is in the same state today as backslidden Israel was in the days of Jeremiah.

THE BIBLE PREDICTS that in the Last Days "evil men and seducers will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13). This is surely the case with America. We have seen her (America) go from bad to worse, which is why many believe her final judgment is at hand. In fact, we believe America is already being judged for her backsliding!--By natural disasters, economic ruin, runaway crime, etc.

In just the past 30 years the U.S. has seen:

* a 560% increase in violent crime
* a 520% increase of student crime committed in schools
* a nearly 400% increase in juvenile arrests
* more than a 400% increase in illegitimate births
* a 400% increase in divorce
* a 300% increase in the number of children living in single-parent homes
* more than a 200% increase in teen suicides

America was founded as a Godly country, and as her citizens loved the Lord and placed their faith in Him, He blessed them and caused them to prosper. But sadly, as a nation she has turned her back on God, and ravaged and polluted the land He gave her:

"I brought you into a bountiful country, to eat the fruit thereof and the goodness thereof; but when ye entered, ye defiled My land, and made My heritage an abomination" (Jeremiah 2:7).

Although there are still many true believers in the U.S., as a nation she has forsaken God. This is her most grievous sin:

"My people have committed evil; they have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters" (Jeremiah 2:13). "Thou hast forsaken Me, saith the Lord, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out My hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary of relenting!" (Jeremiah 15:6).

One of God's incontrovertible laws is,

"Whatsoever a man [or nation] soweth, that shall he also reap" (Galatians 6:7).

God blesses or judges individuals or nations by letting them reap what they themselves have sown. When He judged ancient Israel, He told her,

"Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that My fear is not in thee, saith the Lord" (Jeremiah 2:19).

As a judgment on people that have forsaken Him, God will cause the things they once gloried in to become things of which they are ashamed:

"As they increased and prospered, so they sinned against Me: therefore will I change their glory into shame" (Hosea 4:7).

So many of the things that America once gloried in have now been turned into shame! America gloried in having the strongest economy in the world. Her manufacturing base is now collapsing and the economy is in shambles. In the past ten years America has gone from being the world's greatest creditor nation to the number one debtor nation. America gloried in her freedom and her religious heritage. Now those freedoms are being eroded and taken away, one after another. America once gloried in her educational system, which has now fallen far behind that of most other industrial nations.

WHY IS AMERICA SO BESET with seemingly insoluble problems today? Why has she lost God's blessing?

"Your iniquities have turned away these things [God's blessings], and your sins have withheld good things from you" (Jeremiah 5:25).

When people turn their backs on the Lord and His Word, the Bible, they are often unable to even tell the difference between good and evil.

"For My people are foolish, they have not known Me; they are senseless children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge" (Jeremiah 4:22).

In addition to her general apostasy, some of the major sins for which God is judging and will judge America are:

* Her official banning of the Bible and prayer in public schools

Anti-Christian forces have stretched the First Amendment's guarantee of religious liberty to ridiculous extremes never intended by the Founding Fathers. They have goaded the courts to not only banish Bible reading and prayer from public schools, but they've now made it a legal offense to sing Christmas carols, to display nativity scenes, for a teacher to wear a cross on a necklace, to bring a Bible to school, etc.

Thomas Jefferson's interpretation of the First Amendment makes it clear that a de-Christianization of government-funded institutions, such as we see happening today, was never intended. He said, "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state, but that wall is a one directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church, but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

It was the 1962 Engle vs. Vitale case in which the Supreme Court removed prayer from public schools. The 1963 Worldbook Encyclopedia noted that this was the first time in America's history that we had separation of religious principles from public education. What you choose to give your children is what you are!--And what your children will become. Why have so many of America's children today become so violent, drug-ridden and immoral? Because America removed God and the Bible from her youth's education, she has

"sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind" (Hosea 8:7). "The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken. Behold, they have rejected the Word of the Lord, so what wisdom is in them?" (Jeremiah 8:9). "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate [debased] mind, to do those things which are not fitting" (Romans 1:28).

* Her wanton murder of millions of unborn children

Over 1.5 million government-sanctioned abortions are performed in the U.S. each year, with nearly 30 million babies killed since the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court ruling of 1973. It is estimated that 46% of American women will have had an abortion by the time they are 45. The modern science of fetology makes it undeniably evident that human life begins at conception. The wholesale carnage of unborn children in America is a crime against humanity which the Creator cannot ignore:

"In thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these" (Jeremiah 2:34).

* Her acceptance and promotion of sodomy

Although the Bible makes it very clear that sodomy, or male homosexuality, is an abomination to God, it has increasingly gained acceptance and even popularity in America today. The homosexual community has achieved political clout in recent years, with more than 9 million voters. There are currently more than 70 openly homosexual elected officials around the U.S., compared with fewer than half a dozen in 1980. Congressman Barney Frank, of Massachusetts, disclosed his homosexuality in 1987 and was re-elected the next year by a 70% majority. The Human Rights Campaign Fund, a homosexual lobbying group with 60,000 members, was the ninth largest independent PAC (political action committee) during the 1992 presidential election. As in the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, "gay power" is rapidly gaining ground in America. When Colorado recently voted against granting special rights to homosexuals, almost the entire Hollywood establishment went into action, boycotting that state.
Efforts by the current administration to lift the ban on homosexuals in the military and appoint homosexuals to positions in the government are making it increasingly clear what Bill Clinton meant when on May 18, 1992, he told a group of gay activists, "I have a vision, and you are a part of it."

"They walk in lies, they strengthen also the hands of evildoers . . . they are all of them unto Me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah" (Jeremiah 23:14).
"The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves" (Isaiah 3:9).

* Her cruel and unjust wars against others

"He that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword" (Revelation 13:10).

[We cite but three examples:]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: In August, 1945, the U.S. obliterated these two Japanese cities, killing between 120,000 and 140,000 people. History has revealed much that contradicts the rationale originally given for the first and only use of nuclear weapons against civilian populations. Admiral William D. Leahy, who was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the time, opposed the use of the bomb, and later recounted, "The use of this barbarous weapon was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender." General Dwight Eisenhower confirmed this in his memoirs, stating that weeks before Hiroshima, the Japanese had been seeking a way to surrender: "It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." Truman's Secretary of State Byrnes gave insight into why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked: "Demonstrating the bomb would make Russia more manageable."

Vietnam: While American forces suffered the loss of 58,000 lives and 365,000 wounded, South Vietnamese military losses exceeded 1 million, and North Vietnamese losses ranged between 500,000 and 1 million. U.S. bombing in Vietnam was four times greater than the combined U.S.-British bombing of Germany in World War II. America dropped 6 million tons of bombs on Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Indiscriminate use of "anti-personnel" bombs and napalm on civilian targets horrified the rest of the world! The war uprooted and made refugees of up to 10 million South Vietnamese, roughly half the country's population. The bombing and unprecedented use of chemical defoliants scarred the landscape and damaged Vietnam's ecosystem immeasurably.

Iraq: Cutting through the official hyperbole and noble verbiage about freedom and democracy in the Middle Eastern monarchies of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, Secretary of Commerce Robert Mossbacher explained why the U.S. had launched the most massive airlift in the world's history. (In six months, the Air Force transported more than 577,000 short tons [523,000 metric tons] of supplies and 498,000 military passengers as far as 7,000 miles [11,000 kilometers] to points in the Middle East.) Mossbacher said, "Of course it's about petroleum. Crass or not, it's oil that keeps everybody going."
It is worth noting that contrary to impressions given by the media, during "Desert Storm" only 7% of the bombs dropped on Iraq were "smart." Ninety-three percent were free falling on a largely defenseless population, killing tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians. The Gulf War employed the highest level of bombing in history (around 100,000 tons of explosives dropped in six weeks), resulting in the deliberate and systematic destruction of Iraq's civilian infrastructure.
Over 100,000 Iraqi troops were killed, many in cold blood, while retreating from Kuwait when U.S. fighter-bombers attacked the massive column of withdrawing Iraqis. An American pilot made news by commenting, "It was like shooting fish in a barrel." Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark estimates that the Gulf War killed over 150,000 Iraqi civilians, including at least 100,000 post-war deaths. The figure continues to mount as people, very often children, die from diseases caused by contaminated water, malnutrition and lack of medicines. God says,

"Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, and I Myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath" (Jeremiah 21:4-5).

* Her trampling on the religious rights of her own citizens

The most glaring recent example of gross religious intolerance is the Federal Government's merciless assault against the Branch Davidians in Waco. While we cannot endorse all of the theological doctrines of David Koresh, we believe that the brutal manner in which he and his followers were handled is an affront to the Constitution of the United States and a mockery of America's professed religious freedom. (It should be noted that the government was receiving so-called "expert" advice from the Cult Awareness Network [CAN] before and during the Waco siege. CAN is an organization dedicated to "deprogramming" and "exit-counseling" [for exorbitant fees] members of religious bodies which they label with the pejorative term "destructive cults." Not only have fringe or new religious movements been targeted by zealous CAN-affiliated deprogrammers, but members of mainstream denominations, including Catholics, Baptists and Episcopalians, have been kidnapped and deprogrammed as well.)
A widely published joint statement issued in May 1993 by a broad cross-section of mainstream religious organizations cautions the government, "Under the religious liberty provisions of the First Amendment, government has no business declaring what is orthodox or heretical or what is true or false religion. . . . History teaches that today's 'cults' may become tomorrow's mainstream religions. . . . To deny religious liberty to any is to diminish religious liberty for all."
For the American government to self-righteously set herself up as the judge of others' faith, when she has, in effect, abandoned her own Christian faith, is the height of hypocrisy! As Jesus said in His Sermon on the Mount:

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you behold the mote [speck] that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam [plank] in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the mote out of your eye;' and look, a beam is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the mote out of your brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5).

Does Jesus' stinging rebuke to the self-righteous religious leaders of His day apply to the authorities and so-called "anti-cult" organizations such as CAN who have targeted the Branch Davidians and other religious groups throughout the U.S.?:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' . . . Behold, I send you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify; and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city . . . that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth!" (Matthew 23:29-35).

WE BELIEVE THAT ATTACKS against religious groups such as the Branch Davidians are an ominous "sign of the times," a foreshadowing of the persecution that the Bible predicts will come upon all people of faith in the Last Days. Scripture clearly warns that in the days just prior to Jesus' Second Coming, a powerful anti-God One World Government will arise. This New World Order will ultimately be led by a Satan-possessed megalomaniac, known in Scripture as "the Beast" or Antichrist. He will ultimately demand the entire world's loyalty and worship. It will be against the law for anyone to digress from the "norms" of the anti-religious society that this soon-to-arise "Big Brother" will establish.

"In the Latter Time, when the transgressors have reached their fullness, a king of fierce countenance [the Antichrist] who understands dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power [but by Satan's power]: and he shall destroy fearfully and prosper and thrive . . . and he shall cast down the truth to the ground" (Daniel 8:23-24,12).

"And all the world shall marvel and follow the Beast. And they shall worship the Dragon [Satan] which gives power to the Beast, saying, 'Who is like unto the Beast? Who is able to make war with him?'" (Revelation 13:3-4).

Once this New World Order is firmly in place and its control over the nations is consolidated, the Bible says that its leader will abolish all faiths, blasphemously declaring that he himself is God, and that anyone who dares to practice any other religion must be eliminated. An electronic cashless society will be implemented (the "Mark of the Beast"), forcing all members of society to pledge their loyalty to the ungodly One World Regime.

"And the king [the Antichrist] shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods" (Daniel 11:36).

"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in Heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb [Jesus] slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:6-8).

"And he shall cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark [the 'Mark of the Beast'] in their right hand, or in their foreheads: that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the Beast, or the number of his name. ... It is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty six [666]" (Revelation 13:16-18).

The bestial Antichrist will plunge the world into the darkest and most horrendous nightmare it has ever known, a time which Jesus described as "Great Tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21). (See also Daniel 11:21-45; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 13:1-18.)
THE BIBLE DESCRIBES a great commercial power in the Last Days as "Babylon, the Great Whore, with whom the kings [governments] of the earth have committed fornication" and through whom "the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxuries" (Revelation 17:2,5; 18:3). Scripture also tells us that the Antichrist will form a close confederacy with Babylon's rivals, "ten kings, who are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the Beast" (Revelation 17:12-13). Other passages indicate that these 10 "kings" are likely to be the leading nations of Europe.
These 10 nations or "kings" will ultimately unite with the Beast to attack and destroy the great commercial power which they oppose. Their attack on her sounds very much like a nuclear first strike which destroys her in "one hour":

"The ten horns [nations] shall hate the Whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the Beast, until the Words of God are fulfilled" (Revelation 17:16-17).

"How much she [Babylon, the Great Whore] hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, for she saith in her heart, 'I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.' Therefore her plagues shall come in one day; death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her" (Revelation 18:7-8).

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour is thy judgment come.' And the merchants [exporters] of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more" (Revelation 18:9-11).

"T

Black Blade (2/11/2001; 6:16:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 47976)
A Long Hot Recession this Summer?
All the monkey-business of rate cuts and tax cuts won't amount to a hill of beans. This summer will put a real drag on the economy. As I posted earlier, the so-called "Summer Doldrums" are referred to when talking about the slowdown in High-Tech earnings. Add to that the general downturn in the economy, lowered consumer confidence, and rising energy costs, and you have the recipe for economic disaster. Some researchers have concluded that the problems experienced in Kalifornia will only intensify and spread out into neighboring states as they are depleted of valuable resources in order to help the Grasshoppers continue "Dancing, singing, and playing" without a care in the world. Researchers at Cambridge Energy Research Associates claim that critical power shortages will take place over at least 200 hours this summer in the west. The shortages will cause at least 20 hours of rolling blackouts according to a just released report. Those are controlled cuts in electric service to some customers to avoid wider disruptions. All of this came to light a day after Kalifornia Kommissar Gray Davis issued a series of emergency orders designed to speed up power-plant construction in his state. The construction of power plants won't amount to much as they are presumably NG-fired and the supply of NG is a major problem here. As goes the west, so goes the rest of the country. The problems of energy cost will spread, but the drag on the High-Tech industry will lower expectations and drag down the markets at a critical time of the year. If consumer confidence is low now, just give it a few more months. Portfolio insurance? Probably a good time to consider it.

- Black Blade

Shoeshinegirl. (2/11/2001; 6:00:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 47975)
Test
Test

Shoeshinegirl. (2/11/2001; 6:00:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 47974)
Test
Test

Pandagold (2/11/2001; 5:36:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 47973)
Empires of the Mind

This may help you understand a little of what is going on, if not, it may help you to cope, and adjust, as it helps me. If not, then I pray that God may help - as he also helps me.

I do not belive people are what they eat as is so often proclaimed � especially by those with some vested interest in getting us to eat healthier. Though to eat a healthy diet, we should. People are what they think. Control a person's thoughts and you control the person.

This was known in primitive man by the soothsayers, sorcerers witchdoctors, and the like.

Today we have 'spin doctors' and the powerful mass media, especially advertising companies.

Ask any toy manufacturer or parent they will tell you � if the toy isn't featured in some way on TV this year, it will not be filling many stockings at Christmas. Observe how they present, and get the child to picture that toy in the mind.

How often are opinions about some ethnic group, nationality, or country influenced, not by some personal experience, but by what is inputted daily via media.

No angry word was raised against Saddam Hussein when he was at war against Iran. The Russians were our gallant allies while fighting Germany. At the end of the war, as British American and Russian soldiers met they danced, sang, and hugged each other. There are endless examples.

Almost overnight our minds were switched to see them (those we had seen as friends or allies) as evil, dangerous, and I guess they likewise. Yet nothing had really changed, but a 'cold war' developed from mind control, and we, the common people, were taught to hate.

Not so the 'wealth seekers', check how many were hopping over to Russia, and cosying up all during that 'cold war' - I will give you are start - Armand Hammer, and he didn't hide the fact. He was not alone. Before I read a magazine, newspaper, or view the TV, I say to myself - 'now what do they want me to believe today, and why?
This allows me to expose my mind without being too manipulated - which is not as easy as it may sound.

Therefore, look at what people are being programmed to think, directly and indirectly, and try to see why. Keep an open mind, very open, and dig around, lift stones � leave none unturned, seek truth.

Look at not what economic decisions are in the interests of the people but what are in the interests of the wealth-creaters � the power hungry, because that is the way the economy will be moved.

Any provisions within the system that lead people to believe they have a say in the broader economic issues that affect them are pure illusion. We may delay things a little but stop them � never!

Economists are still fighting the present war with the last war's strategies, and they didn't fight that well. The world has become more integrated than ever before in history. There is no precedent. Neither Smith nor Keynes could have envisaged such a transformation.

The ability to process, store, and transfer information, the vital force which elevated man above the rest of the animal kingdom, has reached a stage where technology has advanced faster than man's current ability to even keep pace.

Trillions of a nation's currency units can be changed into another and flash around the world at the speed of light.

The more technology develops, the more the world integrates, the easier it becomes for economies to be manipulated, especially when the key international political and economic positions, besides banking systems, have somewhere within their framework a member of the 'elite' network, working as a team that would be the envy of the New York Yankees.

It is the failure to identify, and acknowledge this that is the weakness of economics.

My argument is not with the rights and wrongs of the condition, or the reasons which motivate those who seek power, I leave that to sociologists. Nature itself is hardly benign.

What I urge is that economists, and we 'investors' face the cold hard facts of the real world so that at least, we who live in it, and attempt to improve our lot, can be aware of the economic forces which affect us. We like to know truth of what the weather will be like for our vacation trip, why not our metaphorical, but, for us, more consequential, one.

As Churchill prophesied � 'the next great empires, will be those of the mind'. And as Gates made the title of his latest book - "Business at the speed of Thought". I understand what he means, but I feel, eventually (if in some cases not already), that business will be done faster than humans think.

The danger for future generations could well be that the 'elite' will use technology to fully control and then switch on to automatic pilot. During some 'malfunction' probably introduced by the machines, a new 'machine elite' will emerge and take over. Now there's a thought for any of you sci-fi writers out there.

Yes I know that people have envisaged the possibility of machines taking over, but probably not from the angle and cause, I have suggested. Though not being a modern sci-fi reader, I admit ignorance.

Let not my fanciful romancing in the last couple of paragraphs detract from the seriousness of the main message of the post. I introduced that simply to underscore where present trends could take us � though not possibly in our lifetime. We have enough change to contend with in the years left for most of us.

Belgian (2/11/2001; 4:00:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 47972)
SELLING " paper".........BUYING " physical " !! ??
Is this really happening...or are we all dreaming about it ?
If we are all wide awake...we must be able to explain and understand " the mechanism " !
How can you sell paper during a five year declining trend ?
There must be a paper-buyer on the other side of the equation, who is constantly loosing. Because, if one sells paper with the intention of feeding, continiously, a downwards trend in POG...the buyer must nescesarelly be optimistic about POG. These optimists must have died by now.

Do I have to conclude that the POG-organisers, are buyer AND seller, without substantial involvement of opposite takers ? Is the paper only moving in a well defined derivative-inner circle ? Than this mechanism must be clearly explained, how it works and how it is possible, it can keep on working. We need a derivative expert to unraffle this machination.

"OVERHANG" : 15 WA-countries with 400 tons/year + non WA + Hedge-surplus. Is this the "Physical", that is absorbed by the well informed ? These well-informed must be the papergold organisers. And do they need the artificially created, liquidity of the papercircus, to lower the price ?
Without inside information and reliable statistics (offer/demand) we have no evidence if the physical overhang is flowing into jewelry or investment-vaults.

Germany/France and Italy are well known gold-friends. If their substantial goldreserves are still having a purpose to them....how can we trigger a reaction (other than WA) from them ? They must have an opinion on the ever declining gold-paper-price. Why isn't the gold-industry, organising a public dialoque with the above-ground goldholders ?
The governments do react on many other priceswings (oil-currency-interest rates-etc). GATA could adress the 15 WA states, in order to demand Gold-Glasnost. A continious declining POG, could be an excellent opportunity to mobilise the media in the defense of the remaining goldreserves. It is not only the mases of unemployed goldminers, but the loss of reserve-value for the remaining goldholder-states. Financial Times did not respond to my initiative on this subject.

totalamateur (2/11/2001; 3:51:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 47971)
You're so right!
Yeah, I know I and all of us are in need of help, and I am very thankful that it's on the way!

But don't forget: He who laughs last, laughs best! It won't be long now!

Black Blade (2/11/2001; 3:38:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 47970)
Sellers swamp Wall St.
http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/02/09/markets/markets_newyork/

Major losses for U.S. stocks as investors digest news and worry about economy. U.S. major indexes erased virtually all their gains for the year Friday as investors found every reason to sell, from a lack of confidence about how much further the economy would slow to negative reports from several technology companies. Concern about the slowing economy and its effect on corporate profits also kept investors nervous.

Black Blade: A trend that shall continue for sometime. As we head into the spring it could even intensify as investors shun high tech issues in anticipation of the usual "Summer Doldrums." Summer is usually a bad time for High-Tech companies, and judging from the piss-poor performance of tech lately, it certainly does not look very good. Just this last Friday Motorola and Dell announced new lay-offs along with "negative guidance." In other words, - translation - dump our stock now! Energy costs in Silicon Valley are destined to soar higher this summer as Grasshoppers attempt to fire up the air-conditioners and cool down from all their vigorous ectasy-driven "dancing, singing, and playing" without a care in the world. This in turn will only serve to spur vigorous selling into a possible panic on Wall Street while the pundits and talking heads chant ever louder "Buy the Dips!" The Dot.Com speculative bubble has burst, now the High-Tech bubble is rapidly deflating. And the banks are looking especially vulnerable.

A high profile stock analyst (I don't recall his name) with cajones (a very rare breed indeed) was fired recently after a corporate merger. His employers were none too happy with him because he offered sell recommendations (and was usually correct - even more rare). He was eventually hired by Prudential which does not offer investment underwriting services, so he can continue to offer sell recommendations when he thinks it's warranted.

Cheeta (AG) will get on the stump this week before the senate and will perform some tricks to amuse the apes (senators) and make the "court" observers swoon to his melodic chatters and laugh at his monkey antics. It should be "interesting" to see how the market reacts.

I guess what I'm saying is that the market looks especially weak right now and any miscue could upset everything. The NASDAQ chart in the article (above URL) is somewhat revealing. Hey, with PMs still on sale at bargain-basement prices, why should I complain? - I'm Still accumulating.

LeSin (2/11/2001; 3:36:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 47969)
Copied from Gold Eagle Forum "SINGLION"
"THE TRANSITION"

THE TRANSITION�
(singlion) Feb 11, 03:59

As I see it you fellas in this forum and @usagold.com are very close to understanding why the $ has not been discounted as a reserved currency.Those cannot buy anything!! GATA in this... is like a misssile locked on to its target for total annihilation of the status quo..the dollar paper gold world will be allowed to do the equivalent of a currency inflation.

As to manupulation of the gold, I think it is all about economic domination. All are in this together. Wealthy nations have to ponder the future of the euro as they look nervously at their $ holdings with an eye on the oil.
It is kind of interesting to watch the $ paper gold left to die and oil start rising.
As to the subject of whether physical gold is better than leverage gold, I think the subject of whether the market is able to reconstruct the present volume of paper gold into a new reserve currency is important.The euro's failure means leverage gold will go much further as gold begins to discount the $. The reverse means that the equivalent of a currency inflation of the $ paper gold pricing system will be subjected to discount ...leading to a dead$.

Black Blade (2/11/2001; 3:33:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 47968)
Sellers swamp Wall St.
http://cnnfn.cnn.com/2001/02/09/markets/markets_newyork/

Major losses for U.S. stocks as investors digest news and worry about economy. U.S. major indexes erased virtually all their gains for the year Friday as investors found every reason to sell, from a lack of confidence about how much further the economy would slow to negative reports from several technology companies. Concern about the slowing economy and its effect on corporate profits also kept investors nervous.

Black Blade: A tend that shall continue for sometime. As we head into the spring it could even intensify as investors shun high tech issues in anticipation of the usual "Summer Doldrums." Summer is usually a bad time for high tech companies, and judging from the piss-poor performance of tech lately, it certainly does not look very good. Just on Friday Motorola and Dell announced new lay-offs along with "negative guidance." In other words, - translation - dump our stock now! Energy costs in Silicon Valley are destined to soar higher this summer as Grasshoppers attempt to fired up the air-conditioners and cool down from all their "dancing, singing, and playing" without a care in the world. This in turn will only serve to spur vigorous selling into a possible panic on Wall Street while the pundits and talking heads chant ever louder "Buy the Dips!" The Dot.Com speculative bubble has burst, now the High-Tech bubble is rapidly deflating. The banks are looking especially vulnerable.

An analyst (I don't recall his name) with cajones (a very rare breed) was fired recently after a corporate merger. His employers were none too happy with him because he offerred sell recommendations (and was usually correct - even more rare). He was hired by Prudential which does not offer investment underwriting services, so he can continue to offer sell recommendations when he thinks it's warranted.

Cheeta will get on the stump this week before the senate and will perform some tricks to amuse the apes (senators) and make the court observers swoon to his melodic chatters. It should be "interesting" to see how the market reacts.

I guess what I'm saying is that the market looks especially weak right now and any miscue could upset everything. The NASDAQ chart in the article (above URL) is somewhat revealing. Hey, with PMs still on sale at bargain-basement prices, why should I complain? - Still accumulating.

lamprey_65 (2/11/2001; 2:39:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 47967)
Gold Weekly -- Compression Continues
http://www.bookmarkusa.com/goldweekly.jpg
The breakout price for COMEX gold now sits near $268 and is falling about one dollar a week. This means that by the end of March (my latest date guess for the breakout), the breakout price will sit somewhere near $261. The recent fall in price may have seemed dramatic only because short term support was taken out...as the chart shows, however, longer term support is provided in the falling wedge pattern. Notice how the price consistantly falls below support for less than a week and then re-establishes above the support line. The support line is falling much less quickly than the resistance line...hence the compression.

Is there any wonder why we've read so many bearish news releases about gold over the past few weeks? As the breakout price falls and compression continues, a violent upward resolution to the falling wedge pattern becomes more likely.

The AngloGold and Harmony stories were hack jobs...Bloomberg (out of London) totally butchered the facts. Add in Einhorn's bearish article in this week's Barron's and the pattern of blaming producer selling for the recent fall in price is very apparent. The truth is that the professional traders in this market -- the bullion banks -- are delaying the coming breakout as long as they possibly can. (Oh, ever notice how Einhorn almost always writes about specific commodities topping or how they are stuck in bearish trends? Can't recall any bullish commodity articles she's written.)

There seems to be some confusion about manipulation of the gold market and the ability to analyze chart patterns on COMEX. Strong evidence of manipulation DOES NOT negate technical analysis (charts patterns) on gold. What it does mean, however, is that the current resistance formed by the current wedge pattern is a line in the sand for those not wanting (or able) to deliver physical at $270+. When the breakout occurs and is confirmed, technical traders will pile into COMEX gold and make suppression of the price much more difficult.

A confirmed breakout means much higher prices and disaster to those unable to deliver. If I were them, I'd be watching that breakout line like a hawk -- as I'm sure "they" are.

Lamprey

Black Blade (2/11/2001; 1:53:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 47966)
Barbarous Relics Sell Well in Dubai
http://www.thebulliondesk.com/DJNews/4251725.htm
Where jewelry and investment gold are one and the same. An interesting read on the gold trade in Dibai.

IronHead (2/11/2001; 0:35:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 47965)
Mr. Gresham - Cycles RE: your #47960
Hello Sir Gresham - Don't feel too bad about buying in around $300, during the Y2K timeframe; I'll see your $300 and raise you a goodly $100, as my heavy intro was in the '93-94 timezone. No regrets, as the price premium or commission still seems cheap when looking at all that has been shown to align with the physical realities, which have been so nicely pointed out here at ye ole forum.

Regarding your interest in cycles: It seems interesting that so little has ever been mentioned (here or anywhere else) of the work done by Chris Carolan of (calendarresearch.com), as he appears (to me) as having a quite unique and amazing methodology to understanding the movements of markets. Without giving away paid subscription information, or talking outside the direct gold environ too much, suffice to say if you were to find the times of April '98, July '98, April '00, May '00 (and many more) significant from an overall market standpoint, and had those dates in hand considerably beforehand, you might find them interesting, or even useful, depending upon your 'gambling' predilections.

With respect to gold, he has had some extremely interesting insights there too, with the best yet to come. In deference to his service and our host, I won't disgorge too much, but if you like following cycles, I assure you, few will 'entertain/enlighten' as much. If a 'fib' is something you find interesting, he definitely will bring a 'new moon' to your cycle analysis.

As a sidebar; he was the recipient of the '96 Charles Dow Award which honors notable market technicians.

Salutations
IronHead

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