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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 9/10/2005 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) PRITCHO (9/10/05; 23:58:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 135833) WHATS NEXT ? - - - - Another Snip From The Privateer http://www.the-privateer.com/index.php Snip:What's Next?:The coming two weeks will undoubtedly see an increasing rush of ever more desperate edicts flowing out of Washington DC. The growing problem for the Bush Administration is that with each one,the President's"popularity" dives further.September 11 is, of course, the fourth anniversary of the attack on New York. Mr Rumsfeld's "Freedom Walk" will go ahead as planned, flanked by the entire police force of Washington DC and barred to anyone without a permit from the Pentagon. Fences have been erected to keep everyone else at bay.The FOMC meets on September 20 to decide whether they can "afford" to raise rates to safeguard the US Dollar or whether they can't because of the potential impact on the markets. The IMF and G-7 are to meet in Washington. And on September 24, a HUGE anti-war march is scheduled for Washington. PRITCHO (9/10/05; 23:52:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 135832) From Todays Privateer - - -The Deadly Danger To The "Markets": http://www.the-privateer.com/index.php The Deadly Danger To The "Markets":Many Americans and other people all over the world are now shaking the sand out of their ears after removing their head from the place it has long been buried. Ominously, very few of them live or work in Washington DC, or on Wall Street, or in the other financial trading capitals of the world. Wall Street in particular has been focussing on three items since the storm hit. It has focussed on them with a desperate and tunnel vision tenacity since the extent of the damage became clear.First, it is focussing on all the juicy contracts which will now be up for grabs to rebuild the damage. This is of course the age old "broken window" fallacy which sees the new work for the glazier but does not see the loss of wealth incurred by the owner of the window. Then Wall Street is focussing on the fall in oil prices, entirely and determinedly ignoring the emptying of the global reserves of refined petroleum products which has brought it about. Finally, Wall Street is seeing the end of Fed rate rises.What the financial markets are ENTIRELY ignoring is the catastrophic loss of real wealth,the threat of a breakdown in the economic infrastructure, and above all, the demonstrated incapacity of the US to make good the losses with either existing savings or internal productive capacity.The markets are ignoring the starkly demonstrated fact that there is nothing behind the IOUs they trade between them with such abandon. Right now, there is no more dangerous market in the world than the US stock markets.Recent Events:On August 28, the day before Katrina hit, the Dow closed below the 10,400 level for the first time since July 7. After two weeks of government induced chaos and an unprecedented loss of wealth, the Dow closed at 10678 on September 9 after having enjoyed its biggest weekly rise since May. Such is the disconnect from reality of US financial markets in the immediate aftermath of Katrina.That performance has been duplicated in almost all other markets, especially US markets. The US Dollar lost ground in the week after Katrina struck, but has regained half its losses in the week just ended. The Treasury yield curve has steepened slightly as the requisite "safe haven" buying has ramped up. Oil has plummeted as a direct consequence of the emptying of European and Asian strategic petrol reserves. And the $US Gold price, while it is indeed rising, still languishes below the highs it set last December. goldfever (9/10/05; 19:55:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 135831) "Titanica-America" and the Gold & Silver "Lifeboats" Date: Thu Sep 08 2005 21:20goldfever@k-online.com ("Titanica-America" is sinking.) ID#291114:Copyright © 2002 goldfever@k-online.com/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved Titanica-America is Sinking; September 08, 2005. Yes, "Titanica-America" IS sinking.... And the Life-boats will be found in Gold & Silver. A 20 year Epoch of "Economic-Winter" is upon us.Wake up to the dangers; and to the opportunities.But there will not be enough "lifeboats" to go around. The prices for these Gold & Silver "Lifeboats" will be very very dear, very expensive, indeed. Today, they – Gold & Silver -- are still a bargain.They are still Early in their long-term, multi-year Bull Market. As the fiat currencies of nations’ paper moneys and paper-credit instruments depreciate into oblivion, faltering and failing in a hypnotic slow-motion of endless human misery…….The paper currencies of the world's nations will ultimately collapse; it is inevitable; no matter there collusions of power-blocs and their collections of war-mongering guns.Only Gold & Silver Money will triumph. For these ARE hard specie: coins, and credit-instruments convertible there-to; to Real Money – Gold and/or Silver. Thus, with Global, Universal Real Money, humanity will be inherently ruled thereby, and their governments will there-by be disciplined to honest financial and political accountability.For Gold and Silver are the True Money of an honest humanity, seeking, equality of opportunity; a global humanity of a renewing and new world; where a common-community of nations equally and honestly trade with one another on an equal monetary and credit-footing.For only Real Money is Real Money. Usury has run its indebted course, straight into a ditch of unleashed human greed, fear, manipulation; and with trade-wars-brewing; and an unbridled indebtedness spawning global poverty everywhere.The fiat paper currency-cancer of all nations is breeding and feeding the human miseries all over our world. Have we had enough of this, yet?It is overdue time for a universal, global, internationally acceptable common Global-Economic-Money: and it can only be in the form and specie of Gold, and Silver………---Real Money.This is inevitable: "Gold & Silver". A Global Economy and a Community of Nations equally ruled by Honest Money. IT will eventually BE agreed to -- by international accords, by treaties, and by unanimous international-law.This – a single Global, Universal Money --alone will stabilize our troubled, tumultuous world; and bring alive the hope of equal opportunity for peace, and prosperity….. that is the universal human hunger of our world.The generosity of the human-spirit has no limits, when it is offered a fair playing field, which inherently insists on honest money --- Gold & Silver.And so yes -- Gold and Silver will rise UP. And go way way up. And as they go up, paper nations’ fiat currencies will go way way down…. ultimately into the oblivion of their inevitable destiny. Meanwhile, Gold and Silver are NOW about to resume their on-going march for humanity's freedom, all across our world. And as they once again go up in terms depreciating fiat currencies; they will – Gold & Silver will -- eventually reach up - exponentially; and will eventually spiral up to several thousand dollars per ounce, in terms of worthless national currencies of paper. And when Gold and Silver reach their inevitable hyperbolic high prices…. several years yet hence, spiraling to several thousand U.S. dollars per ounce – …….. THAT will be the TIME to sell.Yes, in the terms of the world's paper-currencies, Gold and Silver will eventually skyrocket in price and value.But don't wait until then; for when the popular mass psychology is unanimously clamoring for Gold and Silver at any cost; THAT will be THE time to sell. This is the law of cycles. "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver." ( Proverbs ) . Ayn Rand, from "Atlas Shrugged": "When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the Conviction that you will exchange it for the (equal and equivalent) product of the effort of others...." We see today thru a glass darkly; one day we will see face to face. In our NOW unfolding 20 years of "Economic-Winter"; "Titianica-America" will reveal that in addition to the destruction of private wealth inherent in the the first "Trojan-Horse" --- known as the "The U.S Equity & Bond Markets; the "Second Trojan Horse" has now joined-in, undermining the U.S Economy and depleting the U.S. Middle-Class-Economy and Society. This Second Trojan Horse of the "Titanica-America" Economy is the debt-bloated, ominously-inflated U.S. Real Estate Market. These are two of the Four Trojan Horses that will bring down the U.S Economy --- eventually they will undermine and exhaust the U.S. Economy, and lead to the decline of the U.S. Middle-Class; and cause the inevitable depreciation, repudiation, and collapse of the U.S. Dollar on international currency .markets. This will be a 20-year "Economic-Winter" as "Titanica-America" sinks. Meanwhile, the U.S. Equity markets will continue their disguised, on-going bear markets …. until the proverbial Trojan Horses bring blood a-running in the streets…… and U.S. equities will be going for sale to the highest bidder…that is, for a song.The other two Horsemen of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse of this "Titanica-America" Economy spiraling into 20 years of "Economic-Winter"….. yes, the other two Trojan-Horses of- this American Economic Epoch of Decline, and ultimate Rebirth, are the two Trojan Horses of……: Human Greed, and Human Hubris. So....Keep the faith: for a 20 year epoch of : "Economic Spring" will begin about the year 2025. And Gold & Silver Money will be the global economy's universal standard of wealth – our universal medium of exchange, and our common store of value…… as free, global citizens, all across our rebirthing, equal-opportunity-economic-world. And "Titanica-America" will be no more.Sincerely Yours,David Blair Macrory Chris Powell (9/10/05; 19:13:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 135830) Replying to Belgian about gold and oil Thanks, Belgian, for your latest about gold and oil.In fact GATA has addressed this subject a number of times, if imperfectly, in large part thanks to the work of our consultant, James Turk of GoldMoney and the Freemarket Gold & Money Report, and that of our friend, Eckart Woertz of CFC Securities in Dubai and the Gulf Research Center. Here are some of GATA's treatments of the issue:* * *February 18, 2004: "OPEC is ALREADY pricing oil in euros, GoldMoney's Turk reveals," a GATA dispatch based on a paper by Turk:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/1901Turk's corresponding paper:http://goldmoney.com/en/commentary/2004-02-18.html* * *August 20, 2004: "Oil price is calm when viewed in gold terms rather than depreciating dollars," a GATA dispatch again based on Turk's work:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/2333Turk's corresponding paper:http://goldmoney.com/en/commentary/2004-08-19.html* * *January 26, 2005: "Hunt brothers' silver move was meant to protect their oil business," a GATA dispatch of an essay by Tom Dyson for DailyReckoning.com:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/2771* * *And several GATA dispatches from March 3, 2005, all arising from Woertz's report for the Gulf Research Center:"Dubai study warns oil producers that Western banks rig gold market," which can be found here:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/2901"GATA distributes international press release on gold-rigging report," which can be found here:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/2902"Harris Capital Management: The real currency is crude oil," which can be found here:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/2903* * *No one who asserts that the rising price of oil is largely a measure of the depreciation of the U.S. dollar will get an argument from GATA. But are you saying that the European central banks' dishoarded gold is being used to pay for oil? If so, whose oil, and, really, whose gold? Is it Europe's oil and Europe's gold or America's oil and America's gold, masked by gold swaps with the European central banks?It is established that the oil price in dollars has exploded over the last six years. It is not established that the gold price suppression scheme is over or even nearly over, though of course my colleague, GATA's chairman, believes that it will be smashed up any day now.I am more skeptical. I ask: Might not we see $100 or $150 oil with gold still at $440 or so? Surely any central bank with gold to dishoard can suppress the price for as long as its reserves hold out and it is willing to spend them. Presumably this would keep the oil producers happy -- they'd get higher and higher paper dollar prices and be able to purchase more and more cheap gold. But this really doesn't address many of GATA's concerns, just as you don't -- openness in government policy now, free and transparent markets now, fair compensation for producers of commodities now, the honor of the United States, the decent SURVIVAL of the United States, and so forth.That is why I argue for hastening the day. You assert that the public is hopeless and it never will get involved to hasten anything. Maybe you're right, but then I don't think we need the whole public, just the right number of attentive and decent people involved with the financial markets and mining industry. We'll see, and I think you and I disagree on this point without disagreeing on the general world situation. And we can agree on the general world situation without having to share each other's foremost concerns. Let's just acknowledge that we have some different concerns. Ned (9/10/05; 19:09:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 135829) CLASH AMONGST TITANS !!!!!!!! Wonderful to see Chris Powell and Belgian stand toe to toe and sling this out !!!!Reminds me of FOA and ORO, a couple years ago! About time, biggest feud we had was Pritcho and Goldilox for cryin' out loud.On a day-to-day basis I must admit to understanding 3/4 of what is said on this fine forum so that is good....lets say.So now, 2 of the 'bigger' guys step up to the plate swingin' like the 'bejesus'. That's good, indicates some new interest, maybe someone will take us out of this year and a half stall, this 410-440 (3) wave repetition that we find ourselves.Do you guys mind clashin' for a couple more days until $453 is taken out?Thanks a bunch.Have a golden weekend. Belgian (9/10/05; 18:58:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 135828) Caradoc/Druid - Norcini on POG chart The golden cross of the 50-200 MA is technically relevant, especially on this type of chart (the LT pattern). It probably visualizes the fundamental drying up of the papergold market and the pressure that physical shortage + accumulation is building ? Forget about the (arbitrary) channel. The fib. retracement targets say very little about the stage on wich the goldpricing change is (might be).For concluding that freegold is totally in...we need a different POG-behavior >>> read price explosion to be interpreted as the REVALUATION of gold through the collapse of the $-papergold market. I suspect w're not there yet.But the pressure is definitely (subtly) building !Indeed Druid : Everybody can only think about the (limited) repricing of gold...absolutely without having any idea what the REVALUATION of gold fundamentally means. As nobody gets it that the same is going on with oil ! Soon oil will be VALUED as it should have been done a long time ago. And REVALUED means a lot more than a simple rise in price !!!And now we are finally to realize WHY oil and gold never could be VALUED during the past 3 decades. It brought us the prosperity that we enjoy today...during the coming revaluation period, w're going to have to value that prosperity also and not take it for granted (easely evident)anymore. Basta with all the frauds ! People don't have to look back at these frauds but simply follow the multiple fundamental revaluation processes. Simple, no. But you got that message already some time ago. Many others unfortunately remain stuck in the fraudulent price caroussels. High time we start knowing/realizing the real value of real wealth tangibles and price them correctly/accordingly. Howwwhowhow...here I go again preaching. Good night Druid. Belgian (9/10/05; 18:08:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 135827) @CP The system is already changing NOW ! That's exactly what I'm trying to evidence. From 1999 to date, the POO bursted out of its 3 decades long horizontal price zone ($10-$40) !As I've been remarking before...you never ever give any consideration on >>> oil - gold - euro - dollar !!!The rising $-POO is crushing the $-papergold-market as to enforce inflation induced demand for PHYSICAL gold...PHYSICAL gold to be increasingly taken out of the market !!! Now guess WHO are the Euro gold receivers !?The oil majors want FREEGOLD and the EMU is going to provide it to them ...WIN(oil) - WIN(euro) !The "ongoing" dismantling of the world's papergold market is yet another concession (the final one) for still having oil invoiced (not priced) in US$.Don't count on the general public to hasten whatsoever !!!You don't have to trust anyone (Trichet)...open your eyes and see how the euro is supported by the rising oilprice + the rising goldprice. BECAUSE OIL ADORES THE ECB'S MTM CONCEPT...AND ADORES A PHYSICAL GOLDMARKET ! The more oil (black gold) is taken out, delivered and consumed...the more pricing power the remaining reserves have. They want the same thing happen for the yellow gold...the more physical gold is taken out of the market, the better the remaining gold will be priced. You cannot take goldmetal out of the market with papergold !!! In order to make this happen, there was the need for a pro gold coalition to break (dismantle) the idiot $-papergold-market.Trust what you see. Look at the right things that gain in significant importance. Leave the time/energy wasting noice (derivative watching) for what it is.So to answer your question : Is 6 years a long time (oil $11 > $64) ?If and when you have realized that you have insured/preserved your future purchasing power with having taken physical gold in possession, today...and when you start to feel that this physical gold is in the process of becoming more and more important than the old papergold...aren't you feeling comfortable enough with this knowledge and right anticipation as to not be impatient !?It are the holders of goldmine paper that should rather worry about the ongoing change of physical gold becoming of National Stategic Importance. The dismantling of the $-papergold-market is a threat to them. In Dubai and all those other physical gold places, they don't trade or hold that kind of papergold that they never can have in private possession. They always knew exactly what wealth really is. Don't tell them that gambling on papergold is the same as holding wealth. You can call it making money, when they know that your money is NOT wealth. And these oil-owners are now fully aware how wealthy they are (oil) and how wealthy they will become (oil + MTM gold).You can never bring the general public to accumulate physical gold (take it out of the market) without having a grip of those enormous handles that control the goldprice. People never act on (any) theories...they only follow (sheeplessly) what is happening. Push up any marginal goldmine price with the surrounding fanfare and you make a killing on the back of the disappointed losers . That's what the financial industry has become. When one suggests having physical gold in possession whilst all look at the goldprice freezing...you get an empty theater. That's exactly what the (western) financial industry always wanted...not a soul looking at physical gold...lest taking it in possession.Folks just love the official power of the financial industry and follow blindly. Impossible to spoil that fun/thrill with the exposure of the massive fraud. Because it is exactly this fraud that brought the fun...made it possible to happen.The (un)culture of making money with the trade of (paper)forgeries.There are a lot of arch-conservative giants out there, who watched those crazy forgery markets and had a good laugh whilst profitting of the situation to take the real wealth stuff massively in possession ! Now they only have to dismantle that crazy paper market and show what the original wealth is really worth. No paperish bull market but plain vanilla REVALUATION ! They want real bulls in the arena and not paper derivatized ones. Those giants are located in the East, Chris. They know the real dollarhistory by hart as does Euroland (the architect). Caradoc (9/10/05; 16:15:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 135826) Spot trading on Saturday? http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=FOREX_XAUUSDO&v=i This doesn't show up elsewhere, but here 'tis.Caradoc Goldilox (9/10/05; 15:40:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 135825) Theory @ Chris,Interesting theoretical explanation, but you seem to gloss right over the emperical evidence. I fear you are trying so hard to make the story "fit the theory" that you got blinded by misdirection!Who "invented" the FED? government or "private bankers/parties"?Who really benefits from their actions? government or private bankers/parties?Who is the most probable receiving party to CB gold sales? government or private bankers/parties?Which is more important? The fact that CBs sell gold, or the identity and nature of the recipient?You guys are good at "following the money" as an investigation technique, but in this case, I'm afraid you may be following the "paper" trail instead of keeping your eyes on "It".We often point fingers (appropriately) at questionable courts and lawyers for their collusion, but then drop the ball by not bothering to identify their "real clients".I suggest what we're really experiencing is "government of the bankers, by the bankers, and for the bankers". The lawyers and "representatives" must, by nature of their power base, remain beholden to their sponsors.Money is power, but as the US Dollar loses it hegemony, and the paper gold markets start ot flutter, the real question will be "Gold, Gold, who's got the Gold?" Cavan Man (9/10/05; 15:39:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 135824) RE: Chris Powell Gentleman and Scholar--no question. Cheers and keep up the good work. Kind regards..CM Chris Powell (9/10/05; 14:43:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 135823) Will any of us live long enough to see the system change? Some replies to Goldilox and Belgian....Goldilox: Yes, the Federal Reserve, Treasury Department, and Wall Street financial houses are all constituted by the same sort of people, and the revolving door between them operates constantly. Still, as a matter of law the power lies with the government, and it is theoretically possible for the government to act in an interest other than that of the financial houses. Hence, the financial houses act as the government's agents.Belgian: Where does one begin after all your efforts of today? You say that the ECB's regularly marking its gold reserves to a market price is hugely meaningful. Maybe it is; forgive me for not appreciating it. For it hardly matters to me what the ECB (or the Treasury Department) should list as the value of its gold reserves; what matters to me is what the central bank considers the purpose of holding gold reserves and what the bank proposes to DO with them. And as far as I can see, the ECB and its member banks continue to dishoard their gold reserves and thus to continue to facilitate the suppression of the gold price, no matter how much they may be contemplating a free-market gold price at some point in the future. So why should I be favorably impressed? Maybe this forum really isn't college; maybe it's only first grade. But I am among the students you are stuck with here.You write: "There is an incredible load of digital units of account that never, ever can buy things -- tangibles." Yes, this is perfectly agreed to. Agreed also that the world shouldn't go on forever being the slave of the ridiculously expansive U.S. dollar, that it is crazy for the world to keep trading real goods for U.S. government debt instruments that can never be repaid except with more debt instruments. But if there is some timetable for departure from the dollar system, it seems awfully vague and slow. Will any of us at this forum live long enough to see its completion? Any country could have stopped taking U.S. government debt and could have started requiring payment in gold or something else long before now. If the current system is, as most at this forum probably agree, an injustice, those who are wronged by it have a right to ask when it will be ended, as well as a right to the end itself. My sense is that the central banks of the world know very well how the world is being exploited by U.S. profligacy and arrogance but are taking only the smallest and most tentative steps away from the dollar system, those steps consisting mainly of not buying quite as many treasury bonds as they could, but still more than they bought last month. This seems not to have scared the U.S. into even slightly more responsible behavior. For example, the $52 billion appropriated by Congress last week for hurricane relief was entirely deficit spending, and why not? The foreigners are paying for the Iraq war, so why won't they pay for the hurricane disaster too?You write: "The public believes that price inflation is being managed ... paper gold is perfectly hedging." Let me challenge this. The American public has no conception of paper gold but it HAS begun to sense that the government's inflation figures are phony, vastly understating inflation. The investment community HAS begun to remark on the extreme imbalance of the gold/oil price ratio. And surely the gold community has long since stopped believing that paper gold has been adequately hedging against currency depreciation.You write: "Exposing to the public what is really going on is NOT going to change anything to the inevitable process." Maybe some particular outcome is inevitable, but couldn't exposure hasten the outcome? And if the inevitable outcome is more just, why should it not be hastened?You write: "Why would European banks wish to be a front for the U.S. in managing gold?" Some have suggested that it's a matter of the U.S. military bases in Europe, that Western Europe doesn't want to antagonize the U.S. too much by messing up the gold price suppression scheme. Why do gold-producing countries like South Africa remain pledged not to monetize gold when such a pledge is so contrary to their national interests? But supposing that the European Central Bank and its member banks really do want their independence from the dollar system, do you really think that they will want a "free gold" system for long? In such a system gold would be supreme, and since when have central banks ever wanted that? Isn't the very purpose of a central bank to make sure that gold NEVER becomes supreme, to make sure that the political authorities always remain supreme? I don't get to vote for Greenspan and I certainly don't trust him. Am I supposed to trust Trichet?You write: "Many ... disagree with my (flexible) conclusions, you (GATA & Co.) included, of course. That's why you (sneeringly) call me 'professor' and you keep on talking to me as a 'suspect.' VERY funny." Disagree with you? No, really, not at all with your general analysis of the world situation. As for the title I assigned to you, please forgive my little joke, meant cordially and prompted by our fellow poster's suggestion that I should teach a college course. I think that most here would consider you best qualified among us for that role. But in any college even professors deserve to be challenged -- perhaps deserve to be challenged most of all.You write: "In your answers on the forum it seems that you are quite uninterested in where gold might go and under which (new) regime it might start a new life." No, not uninterested. But figuring out the future has not been GATA's work; we've had enough work to do trying to figure out the present. You are quite ahead of us. You write: "Who can possibly continue to state that euro gold commitments are ONLY a continuation of the big gold fraud and not the early indications of a dramatic change in the old gold market?" Well, maybe you can report where the European central bank gold that has been sold lately is actually going. If it is somehow building the free gold system, I don't see it yet.You write: "Why would 'deep storage gold' be used (or needed) to siphon Barrick's underground gold to the market as to support the $-IMS? To mobilize other states' gold; there was no change of U.S. Treasury gold status. Why has the IMF gold status not been changed for the same purposes, if the Fed and the ECB apparently (GATA) agreed to change the status of their gold reserves to provide gold liquidity?" Well, the disposition of Western central bank gold reserves seems to be a far more sensitive government secret than the manufacture of nuclear weapons, and perhaps that secrecy explains everything.But I think our discussion here is overlooking something bigger: The most important issue in the world, the money issue, the transformation of the world financial system, an issue of justice and the rapidly diminishing honor of the United States, is being decided without the understanding and consent of nearly everyone who will be affected. That's not right, and GATA is doing what it can in that respect.In any case, cordial regards. Druid (9/10/05; 14:34:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 135822) Caradoc (9/10/05; 12:45:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 135819) "Norcini's chart on Sinclair's website was a great excuse for me to send the following email to various friends, relatives, in-laws, and outlaws. Since some of these have not yet invested in gold (and share my DNA for being bullheaded!), I tried to be lowkey, not pushy, and I refrained from predicting a price of $1,642 worth of 1995 dollars."Druid: Sir Caradoc, it's this kind of managed price prediction that makes me cringe when I come across it and many others. It makes me wonder why CB's don't make a variety of different coffee choices from Starbucks apart of their porfolios because in terms of price per cup they will be much more "valuable" then an oz. of gold. I'm looking for an ounce of gold to reflect, rectify, consolidate and converge all the mysticism and stupidity that is sold for wealth and value in our paper markets and physical economy. A price of $1,600+ an oz. won't even pass a giggle test. TownCrier (9/10/05; 13:49:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 135821) 968, requesting my "interpretation of a MTM system for goldreserves" Thank you! It's one of my favorite topics as it is the single most significant and exciting development within the field of gold and money -- not just during these latest three decades, but I would venture over the history of the modern world.A college football game and B-B-Q is going to eat up much of my productive Saturday, so I'll get back with you tomorrow, and hope to include an assessment of McCauley for you, too.Randy USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (9/10/05; 13:31:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 135820) A world of gold at your fingertips... http://www.usagold.com/buy-gold-coins.html Caradoc (9/10/05; 12:45:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 135819) great chart by Dan Norcini http://www.sortweb.com/cwsimages/Miscfiles/2043_Monthly-Gold---9-9-2005.pdf Norcini's chart on Sinclair's website was a great excuse for me to send the following email to various friends, relatives, in-laws, and outlaws. Since some of these have not yet invested in gold (and share my DNA for being bullheaded!), I tried to be lowkey, not pushy, and I refrained from predicting a price of $1,642 worth of 1995 dollars.*******text follows******* In autumn of 2003, I sent most of you a ten-year chart of gold price showing a partially completed "handle and cup" pattern which -- if completed -- would take gold to $400 per ounce and mark the point where it would be likely to begin a fairly large move (approximately the height of the "cup") in one direction or the other. If you'll look at the chart below, you'll see the direction was "up" and it has so far moved about 1/2 of the height of the cup. Completing the height of the cup would take gold to ~$500 per ounce. More importantly (as indicated by Dan's note on the chart linked above), even going as high as $460 would break past the 20-year channel of upper and lower limits that has contained gold since 1985, indicating that a major move upward will follow. My hunch is that it'll take 6 or 7 years for it to reach whatever number it goes to.*****end of text*****Hope I wasn't too lowkey.Caradoc Liberty Head (9/10/05; 12:43:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 135818) From Ashes To Ashes http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10210.htm snipCourt upholds detention without trial for U.S. CitizensNote : The decision by a three-judge panel was written by Judge J. Michael Luttig, who sources have said is under consideration by President Bush for nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court. _____________________________The Constitution arose from the ashes of fascism.Best Wishes Goldilox (9/10/05; 12:17:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 135817) One man's meat @ mikal,'One man's meat is another man's derivative(poison).'And as is true in both apartments and markets -"One man's ceiling is another man's floor" - Paul Simon Belgian (9/10/05; 12:07:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 135816) @ Mikal / Goldi Clinton ...suggesting 2 Billion people (China + India) to adopt a "new economy" based on renewable energy...whilst the US superpower is having a global war for oil/gas-control. Sounds as familiar as...I had no sex with that women...I suspect that the Asians will have...LOL...LOL ! Jesus.Goldi : Katrina and political economy. Another disaster falling on a population with no savings, no reserves ! Bring in B.Bernanke (wich was already done) and send the helicopters. Feed the deficits.New question to all : How much can the goldprice rise without affecting the dollar's exchange rate...reserve status ? mikal (9/10/05; 12:04:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 135815) Gold infant draws adulation from afar http://www.lemetropolecafe.com Midas Report - Bill Murphy - 09/09/05Yesterday's edition of Midas contained this reporton the Gartman Letter(TGL), formerly a leading nemesisof gold, by diligent John Brimelow(brother of Marketwatch's Peter Brimelow)- Excerpt: "The explanation for the sudden burst of activity was probably supplied by the abrupt decision of The Gartman Letter to increase its gold holdings yesterday morning. A large part of the utility of this service is the insight it provides into the intentions of certain large traders: as with the breakout in Euro gold, it looks as if TGL was aware action was pending.Today, Gartman appears confident and cheerful about his gold holdings:"GOLD IN EUR TERMS:This is a bull market and we have remained steadfastly bullish. We see this correction as much needed and health-restoring in nature. A close upward through EUR 360 would be very impressive indeed." (It did: E361.50.)"a weekly close above $448 in US dollar terms would be most supportive of gold's bullish trend, and would cause (us) to add to our long positions. Thus, should spot gold close above $448 today we shall do exactly that: we shall buy another unit of gold in US dollar terms and shall add it to our position. If we have to pay above $450 for it, that would be allthe better."Spot closed at $448.50. Greatly to the astonishment of the more radical element of gold's friends, Gartman cheerfully observed:"For a very brief moment yesterday, spot gold traded to $448 before being turned back. We can never be certain who the sellers were at that level. GATA would have us believe that it was the always nefarious government and Wall Street entities who work in collusion to try to keep the price of gold down…we might be persuaded that some small part of what GATA has said may even have an even smaller kernel of truth to it, for their data is persuasive."(JB emphasis.)Since Gartman has always been vociferous in deriding this school of thought, this is a dramatic development – admitting it displays much integrity. It also implies that the group of powerful buyers with whom he moves know what they may be facing. This makes their entry a far more formidable development – they could well prove unusually tenacious."I'll only add an old maxim or two- 'What goes around comes around.' and 'The more things change, the more they stay the same.' And most important of all, on the current and former ambivalent and irresolute like myself, a humble serving of the wisdom of the ages- 'Different strokes for different folks.', 'It takes all kinds to make a world.', 'Do your own thing.' and 'One man's meat is another man's derivative(poison).' Goldilox (9/10/05; 11:54:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 135814) Clinton on renewables "Mikal- Too bad Clinton didn't talk up the U.S. need for the same "renewable sources of energy". Does he expect China to grow THAT fast?"It's not like Wild Bill doesn't know which side his bread is buttered on!Drop it "buttered side down" and it wrecks the sandwich.If you drop it "buttered side up", you can brush a little dirt off and enjoy! Belgian (9/10/05; 11:39:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 135813) CB gold reserves The globe's two major CBs have changed " THE STATUS " of their gold : ECB shifted to fixed goldprice (by the former NBs) to MTM and the FED shifted from UST-gold to custodial/deep storage gold.The fact that both CBs (ECB/FED) as allied banks chose to change the status of their gold in a different way, is already significant as to detect the ongoing/evolving changes.How can both "different" changes possibly serve the "same" purpose of freezing the goldprice ??? Answer : It can't and they (the changes) don't.I refuse to ignore this fact...label it as uninteresting.Why would deep storage gold be used (or needed) to siphon Barrick's underground gold to the market as to support the $-IMS ? To mobilize other states' gold...there was no change of UST gold-status.Why has the IMF gold status not been changed for the same purposes...if FED and ECB apparently (GATA) agreed to change the status of their goldreserves to provide gold liquidity ? Thoughts. mikal (9/10/05; 11:04:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 135812) Clinton promotes "new economy" http://www.interfax.cn/showfeature.asp?aid=5599 US and China Should Break the 'Old Economy' - Clinton By John Liu - Hangzhou - 09/10/05 - INTERFAX-CHINA - Excerpt: "Former US President Bill Clinton has said that China had no choice but to develop renewable sources of energy, claiming that if new alternatives were not found to traditional modes of economic growth, international conflicts over scarce resources would become increasingly likely.Clinton, attending the China Internet Summit at the West Lake, organized by the e-commerce portal Alibaba in the coastal resort city of Hangzhou, noted that in an "interdependent" world, growing nations such as China and India had to find a way of breaking out of the "old economy". However, changing those old patterns was difficult, he noted, because the traditional energy economy based on oil, gas and coal is well-financed and has strong political backing. "That's why President Bush hasn't changed [the US's energy policies], because he came out of the old economy," Clinton said. The former President also criticized the way the present US administration fought so hard to repel the bid for California-based Unocal by the China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC). "We can't expect US investors to be welcome in China if Chinese investors are not welcome in the US," he said. "I thought the whole thing was silly.""Mikal- Too bad Clinton didn't talk up the U.S. need for the same "renewable sources of energy". Does he expect China to grow THAT fast?And what of "US investors" expected "to be welcome in China if Chinese invesors are not welcome in the US"? They can always follow, albeit tardily, the lead of Russia, Vietnam, Korea, Indonesia, Singapore, Burma, Thailand, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and other understated exporters(of commodities, textiles, technology and trinkets)- parties in the big picture in the dash for gold vs revocable paperdollar promises. Cometose (9/10/05; 10:39:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 135811) futher conclusion THe fed has more leverage to increase geometrically consumers ability to draw on their HOUSING ATM through lowering rates and therefor keep economy chugalugging in the face of sacrificing (heaping on the consumer's tab) the opportunity cost of higher energy and gasoline prices.HIGHER GAS PRICES IT IS. Goldilox (9/10/05; 10:36:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 135810) Speaking of Radio http://www.netcastdaily.com/fsnewshour.htm Returning from his own sailing and fishing adventures, Jim Puplava has posted interviews with authors Michael Economides (The Color of Oil) and Bloomberg's Caroline Baum (Just What I Said) for today's audio "catch". Cometose (9/10/05; 10:33:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 135809) GOLD, Dollar, OIL GAS Cometose (gasoline and it's inverse relationship to the dollar) ID#139260:Copyright © 2002 Cometose/Kitco Inc. All rights reserved There's been quite a bit said about GOld and its inverse relationship to the dollar... I've been thinking some about the diverse circumsances and their probable affect on the price of gasoline . One of my insights about this scenario is that because the DOLLAR is the reserve currency of the world and because the dollar is the currency all must use to buy their oil ... If the dollar falls and other currencies rise, the dollar price of OIL WILL RISE based on GLOBAL OIL producers wish to not let the irresponsible FED POLICIES affect their bottom line...profit in value....As long as oil is priced in dollars.....therefore, if the value of the dollar increases it should reflect in lower prices in dollar terms and if the dollar falls in value the price of oil in dollar terms would increase if all other things are equal ....which they are not with the case being that we are at MATT SIMMONS peak oil ......and therefore there is increasing demand coming on globally from emerging economies such as India and CHina at the same time as we are facing declining GLOBAL SUPPLY....These two circumstances on their own will cause upward pressure on the price of oil and therefor gasoline.......THis has become very apparent in the real world in recent weeks...with the dollar residing at between 87.5 and 90 for a period of some months.... On a side note .....the Fed is in a peculiar place now ...for the following reasons...... the domestic economy runs on energy and some say to a vastly reduced fraction of its former diet ( energy ) 25 years ago .....However Utilities , Transportation and COMPUTERS all drive the ENERGY CONSUMING FURNACE as well as other industries.. but Transportation is vital to the rest of the economy per getting finished products to market....and this per Matt Simmons is the most taxing ineffecient waste and argument against global trade at this point in the ENergy Cycle we are exposed to....This component also affects the consumer side of the equation ....as the disposable income of the consumer to spend and therefor to stimulate the economy is directly affected by amounts that must be diverted to ENERGY ( utility costs ) and GASOLINE...away from disposable spendable income. If the interest rates fall , the dollar weakens . WHen this weakening takes place it will be directly reflected in rising gas prices ( via OPEC PRICING mechanism ) . If prices continue to rise ...it will affect the consumer and the other inustry groups mentioned and shut down the economy or cause massive inflation to occur which will shut down the consumer end of the spectrum which will cause a recession ....which usually causes the fed to loosen more ....which causes a weaker dollar which will cause the price of gas to rise further.... If the fed tightens to continue to strengthen the dollar so we continue to have players supporting our bond markets, so our politicians can continue spending like drunken sailors....while the world stands by in attentive observation ..../eventually the bond market starts to tank.....This causes the Mortgage backed securities industry to sagalagalot.... ( this is the securities industry today ) . This eventually causes the mortgage markets and real estate markets and the Consumer Credit markets to tank eventually robbing the consumer of his LINE OF CREDIT TO SPEND and stimulate the economy..THis causes the Economy to go into recession all other things being equal ....BUt all other things are not equal.... THE GOV"T hacks in washington continue to spend like drunken sailors with the rest of the world watching and this causes the rest of the world to want to curb it's purchases of US DEBT SECURITIES.....which is what they are doing ... So along comes some saavy well heeled CARRIBEAN OFFSHORE BANKING GROUP just TIMELY ON THE SCENE to begin buying all these unwanted DEBT SECURITIES to buy up the SLACK ...THEY SEEM TO HAVE UNLIMITED BUYING POWER .....SO they buy to maintain the status quo..... THE REST OF THE WORLD IS NOT FOOLED ...because eventually they know this game will fold on itself ; and unlimited printing of US DOLLARS is inflationary , so they continue to hedge their bets by buying gold....big time... THis would ordinarily cause the price of gold to GO UP all other things being equal .....but all other things are not equal .....BUDDY BANKER CB GROUPS have been colluding with the US FED to sell their GOLD RESERVES and derivitives into the market ( of which there is a limited supply ) and this has been keeping the price of gold from escaping their grasp as it did heretofor in the LONDON GOLD POOL DAYS........... So the price of gold has not moved more vigorously than it possibly should have.... WHen the CB's run out of gold , the imbalances caused by the fed shall be manifest .....as GOLD RUNS..... DURING times as these it would seem that RESERVE CURRENCY STATUS OF currencies like the dollar are switched with the emergence and growth of other ECONOMIES MORE representative of strength, growth and domination ......China comes to mind...THe EURO WAS devised and backed by gold to serve as an alternative to the dollar...On a global level therefor we seem to be in dollar waning mode and EURO WAXING MODE..... THe more the FED raises the interest rate to accomodate these conditions the more damage is likely to be done to the domestic economy .....and eventually the fed will be forced to quit fighting this MEGA GLOBAL TREND ..and the dollar will wane and sink on the horizon .... THE SPECIFIC timing of this scenario can't be known......but its' consequences to us here domestically in it's ramifications regaring energy costs and the PRICE OF GASOLINE ......could be severe....... WARREN BUFFET , GEORGE SOROS , and others have placed huge bets against the DOLLAR... ( WARREN's Dollar short 20 billion ) . It is my bet that the FED will try to keep the value of the dollar up as long as possible but that in a WORLD which becomes less dollar concentric by the day , it's attempts will fail.. Continuing increased GLOBAL DEMAND in the face of depleting supply will cause UPWARD PRESSURE to continue forcing OIL PRICES HIGHER.... If the dollar collapses in this context GAS PRICES GO INTO THE STRATOSPHERE .....and probably the inflation caused by this will be reflected in a GOLD SPIKE.. We would assume that gas prices rising on the falling dollar will eventually cause the economy to shut down ..........this would eventually cause supply disruptions in oil itself because of TRANSPORTATION DISRUPTIONS if the GOV"T didn't intercede.... If all things were equal in the face of these troubles ....with dropping demand of oil due to unaffordable prices here domestically , eventually the price rise would have to abate... but all things are not equal because there is a big world outside the US that needs this FUEL as well and their demand will continue to rise and supply will move more in the direction of the FAR EAST which combined with the continuing manifestation of peak oil might keep our prices domestically rising or stabilizing at unprecedented levels ......until renewable forms of energy and alternative energy technologies fill the gap.... I would expect gas prices north of $5.00 in the new year ....for starters and I am planning my future accordingly... Goldilox (9/10/05; 10:32:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 135808) more "fishing" tales http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/ Just after posting the woes of the Gulf fishing industry, I moseyed on over to McCanney's site and caught a surprise. He has posted a "photo op" of GB I and II displaying their "catch" from the NO flooded streets - with refugees in the background still wading through waist-high waters.A Photoshop "prize" for the new WH chef? Goldilox (9/10/05; 10:16:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 135807) HURRICANE KATRINA TRIGGERS FISHERY FAILURE http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/s2501.htm snip:Sept. 9, 2005 ? U.S. Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez today announced a formal determination of a fishery failure in the Gulf of Mexico due to the devastation following Hurricane Katrina. The affected area includes the Florida Keys and from Pensacola, Fla., to the Texas border.The determination came in response to a virtual fishery shutdown in the affected states due to major flooding, damage to fishing boats and fishing ports, waterways clogged with debris and closed processing facilities."We are taking action now because of the significant economic effects of Hurricane Katrina on fishing communities in the Gulf of Mexico," Secretary Gutierrez said. "Major commercial fisheries in the Gulf of Mexico include fin fish, shrimp and oysters, with an estimated value of almost $700 million per year."Although the extent of the damage to Gulf fishing industries is not yet known, fishing in the region has been essentially halted. NOAA will work with the states to assess damage to the 15 major fishing ports and the 177 seafood processing facilities in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. Based on preliminary estimates, there are 432 federally permitted fishing vessels in Alabama; 3,738 in Florida; 1,033 in Louisiana, and 351 in Mississippi. Additional fishermen hold state permits.The action was made through provisions of the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act, which makes federal relief funds available to assess the impacts, restore the fisheries, prevent future failure, and assist fishing communities' recovery efforts after a natural disaster, and the Inter-jurisdictional Act, which makes funds available for direct assistance to fishermen to alleviate harm resulting from a natural disaster.-GoldiloxMore of the "economic effects" surfacing. Ned (9/10/05; 10:12:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 135806) Thanks Overton http://www.kfnn.com/listen.asp Looks like 3-6pm Arizona time (mountain?). Could be interesting. Anyone read "Price of Loyalty"? I've walked by it a dozen times at the bookstore, always wanted to get it but expensive. Recommendations?Just checked the 'Listen Live' link, Real Estate show just started.....9-10am local time....so....Bob Brinker on at 6:00pm eastern. Druid (9/10/05; 09:40:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 135805) @Belgian Druid: Belgian, thanks. Belgian (9/10/05; 09:38:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 135804) The other BIG fraud... IRs constantly declining during 25 years (2 1/2 decades) since their THs at 1980 !!!Whilst the entire planet was flooded with easy Al debt-dollars,...those dollars of the $-IMS,...the dollar accumulators experienced 25 years of IR decline AND 25 years of dollar purchasing power !!! Holy cow, what a great monetary system...what a fine "MARKET ECONOMY".But the system brought plenty of prosperity for the Western hemisphere. And so far, all is well in this house.We will NOT see exhuberant high IRs for any considerable time anymore ! The system CANNOT be "repaired" with the old Volcker remedies. TOO LATE !On the contrary...low IRs are $-system supportive ! That's WHY the ECB has NOW the luxury of being able to decide on its own IR policies without having to support the $-IMS per sé. Think MTM.This growing independance of EU/EMU policies from the former EU/US coalition IS the alternative being build on and presented to the coalition. Think Euro gold commitments.During those 25 years of IR-$ and goldprice frauds, the planet was not simply swallowing this as evident cake. That's what the 1999 dramatic turn was all about. Basta with the dollar regime and its frauds.Euroland has already accepted publicly that oilprices are going to remain high (north of $60) and can't go but higher. This leads to oil/gas for euro in a soft and relatively smooth fashion.(think Iran and the pending solution for Irak). And there are some other revelations to the general public in the pipeline (more on this later).The real conondrum about IRs is not the rate inversion, but the effects that this 25 years of IR fraud had on the $-IMS...its users and supporters. Ask the Japanese what it (their collusion) will bring them after 25 years of rising out of their WWII ashes. A not so bright future regardless of the endless spin that is produced en masse.There is NO correlation between the goldprice and IRs anymore ! Because the goldpricing is changing. Idem dito for the 3 decades old correlation between $-POO and $-POG. Those links are definitely broken and the extremes of today only say how bad the effects of the inimagineable interventions actually are. No drama but a transition going on as smooth as possible.Sure, the main managers of the monetary system will try to do their best in reducing the visibility of these extremes >>> Is all included in a good management. But what "was" a good management is now an ever growing "fraud" that manages the hiding of the drama for the public's eye. Might even include another ridiculous price of $500/$600 for an ounce of precious. Belgian (9/10/05; 08:53:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 135803) part III 35 Years of goldprice freezing is a huge-big (systemic) fraud. Today's goldprice $440 has remained quasi unchanged as an average for the past 3 decades...whilst its purchasing power was permanently reduced.During this 35 years, the Big Fraud was possible thanks to an organized (and agreed upon) fraudulent gold-pricing mechanism (the paperization saga).Now it is not the time to wish for moderation of the fraude...decline in intervention...a little less manipulation. IT'S TOO LATE FOR THAT !!! The change is in and the old gold-pricing mechanism is gradually breaking up.Papergold can never be named/labelled as being in a bull-market ! Ever seen paper bulls ? Those who make a paper profit on the goldprice rise (at the expense of those who make the losses)...are stuck again with more of the same paper (units of account) as before. How can all these profit makers ever buy goldmetal (in possession) with these goldpaper profits ? They can NOT. Not for even a fraction of these so called profits. This for as long as the goldprice remains tied up/in with the $-exchange rate (or USDX). Buying goldmetal in possession and raise the price of PHYSICAL gold is as much as pushing the exchange rate of the dollar down !Trying to obtain a lower degree of (paper)goldprice is nothing going to change on the Biggest fraud of all >>> THE GOLDPRICING ATTACHED TO THE DOLLAR.That's WHY the pro gold coalition wants the change/transition from the old $-papergold market to a PHYSICAL gold market. That's WHY the European banks' cooperation/support of the fraudulent gold-pricing IS CONCEPTED AS A DOUBLE EDGED SWORD. Let's make the goldprice/pricing fraud soooooo Big and blatant, that it becomes totally impossible to hedge the dollar's permanent losses in purchasing power in the designed $-paper gold market ! Bastards !WHY support the $-IMS any further with goldprice/pricing fraud...if one's dollar stashes continiously increase and the purchasing power of these stashes permanently declines !? Are all those dollar (reserve) accumulatorscomplete idiots and stubbornly continue to get out of this system and cooperate on the transition into another monetary regime (a golden one) ? Are the Swiss, Brits, Eurolanders, Asians, Middle Easterners, Russians... dwarfs/trolls ? Even bancrupt Argentina restarted with...gold-reserves.That's WHAT I mean...THE CHANGE IS IN ! Not a little bit of change but a dramatic one...soon becoming much more visible in sharp contrast with the Big fraude of the past 35 years.The separation of paper market from physical market is not a new fenomenon. The hyper securitization (paperization) trend of the past decade has its historic analogs. Euroland learned from its Weimar period and has put the fundamentals in place for not going through it a second time. Is Euroland being ridiculed by the East ? Not in my knowledge. Is that significant ? Bet it is.If the $-IMS wants to avoid that a physical gold market continues to replace the $-papergold-market, it has to put its house in order and tackle the (systemic) deficits as to dramatically reduce exhuberant $-expansion. Can this still happen ? NO, it can NOT !Therefore the very nature of the old gold market will continue to transition as the Rothshields already subtly announced ! They already left the sinking ship and are not waiting for a bail out. They actually never did wait for anything without the perfect anticipation. They even took LBMA public after all those decades of fraudulent anonymity.And look at what you see there >>> The $-paper-gold market is CONTINIOUSLY shrinking. Significant ? Bet it is !And against this background...who can possibly continue to state that Euro gold-commitments are ONLY a continuation of the Big gold fraud and not the early indications of a dramatic change in the old gold market ?The old and loyal supporters of the dollar regime cannot put any condition for their support anymore. They have to leave the $-debt-berg house ($-IMS). Let's say adieu to a good friend in a descent way showing our gratitude for what "was" (prosperity).Regards from the Belgian eternal student. 968 (9/10/05; 08:00:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 135802) @ Towncrier Hello Randy,I (and I think the entire forum) would like to hear your interpretation of a MTM system for goldreserves also.Please share it with us (when time allows).Thanks in advance ! overton (9/10/05; 07:39:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 135801) former treasury secretary Paul O'Neill to be interviewed on bob brinkers show this afternoon............if you can't pick on radio try kfnn out of arizona..............add the w's Belgian (9/10/05; 06:51:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 135800) Monopoly The (globalizing) monetary expansion is such that it can easely (flawlessly) be compared with the Monopoly game : More paper-money (digits) in increasingly/huge excess of the amount of players and tangibles (goods/services).All CBs and their states make this happen. NOT all CBs/states wish to victimize their hard working/saving citizens with their system that definitely has an end timeline.What's the use of having more and more units of account at one's disposal if a smaller and smaller fraction of this digits pool can actually be exchanged for tangibles...that disproportionately rise in price (the deflablabla) !?What is the real purchasing power of ALL this units ? Answer > ZERO ! Once that a smaller and smaller amount of these digit holders (bonds-stocks-etc) wish to exchange a smaller and smaller amount of thise digits into tangibles...we have instant hyper priceinflation. This isn't happening yet. But that does NOT mean that those Big holders of Big stashes of units of account realize that only a fraction of their excesses (reserves) can actually be transformed (exchanged) for a tangible ...that is purchasing power waterproof."Conservative" oil and Asian excess digits cannot be satisfied with the appropiate purchasing power consolidating tangibles. States and their CBs cannot go on expanding monetarilly when the system permanently has to produce ever more debt as to keep the global economy running (K.Richebacher).Somebody (EMU) had to come up with a "solution" for this self destructive systemic (AA-$-IMS).Here we have 2 opposing solutions : An AA gold-standard and EMU freegold.This is the general idea behind my view, Chris. I do understand your views...but that didn't work for the past 7 decades. EMU doesn't want any "fixed (rigged) standard" anymore ! That's WHY the Duisenberg statement(s) (and many other) aren't interesting you. Probably because the concept is much too all embracing ? The above is the reason WHY goldminers have permanently being plundered and the goldmetal is being distributed amongst the forming coalition of freegold willing. And taking freegold into consideration means automatically that one doubts that the $-IMS can be for ever. But it are the actors of that very $-IMS who are the ones knowing very well that their system cannot live for ever.Listen to Sir Alan. CBs stand ready...CBs are acting as if they live on a gold-standard...etcAlan nor anyone else supporting/using the $-IMS is going to trumpet that the system (their system) is dying. And it speaks for itself that "they" wish to keep the/their system alive for as long as possible, doesn't it.Does this mean that there is no alternative and that we all are going to sink to the bottom ? No it doesn't ! That's (practical)doom policy.WHY does the $-IMS demands that Asian currencies revalue ?Not so paradoxal when thinking deeply about this demand. The growth/expansion of the globe's monetary pool is getting OUT OF CONTROL !!! That's life threathening to the system itself. That's a straith line to the freegold concept and undermining the existance/use of the $-IMS.Exposing to the public what is really going on is NOT going to change anything to the inevitable process (The Change).The world happens to be somewhat bigger than US (+ alies)borders. And, BTW...why would European banks wish to be a front for the US in managing gold !? Can you elaborate on this ?Tomorrow's Bonanza might show more Asian cooks than cowboys ? This is not a static planet that can hold onto a status quo.A global market that sees its tangibles increasingly being priced by a fast/faster growing paper-mollog...will stop and reverse in participating in this regime. All support will gradually fade away. Many on this forum have listed all the events that evidence this...if correctly interpreted of course. But that means that one steps out of the machinations of the paper-industry and makes efforts to get the Big picture. No need to have any degree for this. Common sense and critically considering the theories that don't add up.Fact : Asia, the Middle East and Russia have more bilateral trade with Euroland, that has its trade balance on the plus,...than with the US wich has a systemic trade deficit.Is this fact going to favor the US-$-IMS ad infinitum ? Or do these trading EU partners gradually favor the EMU concept ...including freegold ? Is this argument not interesting enough...than let's rush to another one.Fact : Are the fast rising powers on this planet supporting/encouraging US-unilateralism or EU-multilateralism ? Bearing in mind that a currency is backed/associated with its state political styling.What does all the analysis of gold derivatives mean against the above Big picture background ? Very, VERY little imo.It is simply sticking to the machinations of paper setting the price of gold. And at the same time permanently running away from a PHYSICAL goldmarket. The dying $-IMS found its last refuge in the "paperization" concept. In Dubai (or Shangai and many other places), people just have a good laugh at paper (and its contracts). They never forgot how worthless a paper-contract is...always was. But with or without public exposure of the gold(and other)rigging...they, the ordinarry folks, can't beat the manipulative/interventionist system. They have to join it, like it,...realizing it, or not. But...This is NOT the case for the Biggies who really know where that system is heading. And since they are part of the system...they are well placed to know...AND ACT UPON !Nobody told me so, Chris...but when sitting on my pond, watching goldfish (my friends)...I use the scarce intelligency and logic deduction capacities that were given to me. I don't wish to be interested in very selective elements that don't make things add up, simply for the sake of having a theory. I have not much time left to waste on wrong ideas/insights. If ever in Belgium, don't hesitate to call me and have a few drinks overhere. A house with an open door for all of good will.I recognize, after having thought (illusion) for 20 years that I understood gold, that something MUCH bigger has been going on during the past 3 decades. It didn't cause a shock but rather a challenge to find out why I was so terribly naive during all these long years. I wan't even confused during that (blind) period.And it is exactly here that many, most (if not all) disagree with my (flexible) conclusions. You (GATA & C°) included of course. That's why you (sneeringly) call me professor and you keep on talking to me as a "suspect". VERY funny.Anyway, back to the Big gold picture : Many goldobservers can read/translate the fundamentals behind chart patterns.I have such a 35 years $-POG chart in front of me (not the only one of course). Whilst communicating my theories (or whatever you may call it), I do constantly watch the 35 years old pattern (picture). This whole picture IS ONE BIG FRAUD ! This price-pattern doesn't ad up !!! This is "THE" (infamous) gold-standard that Alan mentioned. And this big fraud has come to an end. I communicate the fundamentals (imo) behind it. In your answers on the forum...it seems...that you are quite uninterested where gold might go and under wich (new) regime it might start a new life. Bizar, no.Maybe it would be interesting to hear some more projections on gold's future price - pricing. New or more of the same old. Belgian (9/10/05; 04:43:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 135799) Gold - goldprice -goldpricing manipulations... If I accidently understand it correctly...CP is unhappy with the PRESENT DEGREE OF GOLD MANIPULATION. They have been managing the gold affairs for decades, haven't they.But it is exactly the ever rising degree of "management" of all things financial and monetary that is of utmost significance. WHY ...WHY, all the incredible exhuberance in derivatives (Trillions) ?WHAT exactly is going to be solved when "the degree of manipulation" decreases...and in particular for gold ? But first, ask the question : Is it still possible to bring the GENERAL degree of manipulation back to normal ...and then, what is normal ? Will this happen because we all are going to start yelling...STOPPPPPPP !? A bit naive,no.I found peace of mind, now that I discovered that the ECB's MTM thing (?) is simply a book-keeping fantasy to fool the system of european central banks. Oefff, is only a joke.Now, the ESCBs can go on selling the remaining 12,000 tonnes of goldreserves and book it quarterly at the managed market price. How convenient. How magnificently trust-building.And from now on...I'm only going to listen what the Aussi CB has to say on gold and ignore the Duisenberg (Dim Wim and his zeuro) yadayada.CB goldreserves are an instrument to manage currency exchange rates...and an instrument to let some privileged protégés make money...and we (the CBs) only need a few grams (not tonnes) of it remaining in our vaults.Keep on carry trading folks...it's free now !Don't worry about making any mistakes...we bail you out, because w've half our stash of gold (32,000 minus 10/12,000 tonnes already gone) left to make you carry on.The Belgian house, kitchen and garden professor : When a system lands finally in the environment of hyper-intervention...there is no way back out of it. The system has expanded its vast oceans of digits far beyond the tangibles that these digits are supposed to represent ! Simplier : There is an incredible load of digital units of account that never ever can buy "things" > tangibles !!!And this systemic process keeps going on. And it is exactly here that the ECB/BIS complex has anticipated. Freegold means that gold can be priced freely again...NOT THE PAPER DERIVATIVE...BUT THE GOLDMETAL PHYSICALLY ! That is the WHY of the ever declining paper-gold volume at LBMA since it went public !!! In Dubai, they don't buy/sell papergold but the METAL. And Dubai is not a camel souk.Two Billion Asians are not going to become westernized and accumulate more and more of the same digits that can't ever buy a thing (tangible)!Some particular CBs know very well that the evolution of more debt to keep the political economy running, cannot go on for ever. That's what Duisenberg suggested. The Aussies (CB) says exactly the opposite. They remain (also) convinced that the manipulation/intervention is of supreme quality and will continue to support the system. Don't worry mates,...w've everything under control and we will manage to get out of this messy period. Right !?Yeah, we know that you wish to expose our unhappy/unfortunate degree of manipulation...but trust us !What if a growing (global) coalition sees a way out in having free priced gold as to guide the enormous/huge digit excess into the wealth metal and NOT into more and more of the same papers !? That's WHAT this MTM concept stands for...not to fool or satisfy banks with some candy...but to have a survival solution of the monetary (fiat) system on wich this modern globe thrives. A way to get back into the "natural" world of "real" things. Impossible with another gold-standard !And once the dollar fades away...the whole globe will suddenly realize that all fiat ($-derivatives) are an illusion of value. That's WHY the euro architects wish their newly concepted fiat numeraire to become associated with the tangible of freegold.The UST/FED cannot switch to this concept or lose the power/privilege of global monetary expansion. That's the WHY of UST-gold still fixed at $42/Oz...an anachronism...oh sorry, a book-keeping nescesaty.CP, look again what happened in 1999 ! What an enormous amount of changes that took place on the pricing of euro-dollar-gold-oil-Dow-etc...The sudden (and sustained) rise in $-POO, out of the blue...out of its 3 decades horizontal price-zone is "testing" the dollar's resiliance. At the same time, the volumes of papergold started their sustained decline...as to signal GET OUT OF PAPERGOLD AND PREPARE TO GO IN GOLDMETAL ! Sticking to the peak oil yada is of course the simpliest explanation for public consumption.No wonder...the general public believes that price-inflation is being managed...papergold is perfectly hedging...($)debt is ($)money=($)wealth...and a moderate degree of intervention/manipulation is OK. But in Dubai, China, India...they GO INCREASINGLY PHYSICAL. They don't need professoral (or any other) theories. Their intuition has remained intackt. They want PRIVATE WEALTH...real wealth, and not a fabricated collectivist one under its many different forms. Oil doesn't want to price its black gold under a dollar-papergold-regime anymore. Repeat : THE LBMA VOLUMES CONTINUE TO DECLINE !!! Dubai continues to expand !!!Or...do you really, REALLY...believe that the globe will continue to accumulate UST-bonds that are permanently managed to lose purchasing power...IF ANY ! Yes, UST-bonds are still bought for the same strategic (pragmatic) reasons as CB-gold is committed (goldsales) !!! This is about the IMS transition that is proceeding.And to end briefly : FREEGOLD is coming as to be able to continue living with currency !Am going to feed my friends, Chris...the goldfish in my pond. Nice WE. Goldilox (9/10/05; 00:09:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 135798) Correction That's "CB sales" not "VN sales". Sorry for the missed edit. Goldilox (9/10/05; 00:06:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 135797) CB sales @ Chris,Thanks for the reply, although I am not sure you really addressed my question.Let me first say I greatly admire your work. The exposition of corruption is always difficult, given the disinformation, cover-up activity, and collusion of participants.In saying that, I still maintain that the knowledge about the recipients of VN sales might very well tell us more than much of the spelunkering has so far revealed.You quickly assume that the Bullion banks and other parties act as "agents" for the CBs.Study of the origins of the FED, bankrolling of war efforts, and the open collusion of business magnets on both sides of major conflicts suggests the opposite may be more often be true.My original comments were meant to suggest that the CBs (and often governments as well) regularly act as "agents" for these very powerful influences. Attributing the controlling interests is a very difficult task, but the option remains that the governments often act at the behest of powerful individuals, rather than the opposite and there is much historical record to support that. ViewYesterday's Discussion.
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