Home Gold Primer Q&A Daily Market Report Gold IRA Gold Coin Prices Charts Stats Essays Site Overview High Net Worth How to Buy Gold Live Gold Price Breaking Gold News Mobile Gold Price Gold Coin Images About Us-Contact Search Video Round Tables

Welcome to the USAGOLD Gold Discussion Archives. The archives of this gold discussion forum are a treasure trove of information to educate investors about protecting their wealth through portfolio diversification with private gold ownership. The discussion forum also covers the wider issues of the past, present, and future role of gold in international monetary policy and the dynamics of the modern gold markets...   (Discussion Forum Hall of Fame) (The Gold Trail) ("Thoughts!" by ANOTHER)   The opinions posted by all guests are expressly their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the management or staff of USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals. The hosting of the public discussion shall therefore not be construed as an endorsement by USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals of any of the opinions posted here.

FORUM ARCHIVES

Select date of the archive you wish to view Month 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Day 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Year 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Archives date back to September 22, 1998

WELCOME TO THE ARCHIVES!

ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 7/10/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

Black Blade (07/10/01; 23:51:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 57871)
Ultramar Diamond Shamrock eyeing damage from Texas refinery fire
http://ogj.pennnet.com/articles/web_article_display.cfm?ARTICLE_CATEGORY=TOPST&ARTICLE_ID=106743

Snippit:

HOUSTON, July 10 -- Ultramar Diamond Shamrock Corp. was evaluating the damage to its 98,000-b/d refinery at Three Rivers, Tex., following a Monday fire. One refinery employee and two contract employees were injured. The company said they were in good condition at Spohn Memorial Hospital in Corpus Christi. Three Rivers is a town of 2,000 persons midway between Corpus Christi and San Antonio. Persons living within a 7-block radius of the refinery were evacuated after the fire and remained evacuated. UDS spokeswoman Diane Mitchell said the fire was in the alkylation unit. "There's still a small fire burning, but it's like a pilot light and we don't want it to go out." Air is being monitored for hydrofluoric acid emissions.

Black Blade: hydrofluoric acid emissions? Well then - scratch one refinery. hydrofluoric acid eats through just about anything, so the damage must be too extensive to salvage the refinery if it has escaped containment. BTW, another refinery in Virginia is still out of action after a fire a couple of months ago. The US is quickly running out of these aging dinosaurs.

Golden Dreams All!


SHIFTY (07/10/01; 23:40:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 57870)
Is the BOE the PPT ?
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Links/setframe.html
Financial Stability

The Bank's second core purpose is to maintain the stability of the financial system, both domestic and international. This the Bank seeks to achieve through monitoring developments in the financial system both at home and abroad, including the links between individual institutions and between financial markets; and through analysing the health of the domestic and international economy; through close co-operation with financial supervisors both domestically and internationally; and through promoting sound financial infrastructure, including efficient payment and settlement arrangements. In exceptional circumstances, in consultation with the Financial Services Authority and HM Treasury as appropriate, the Bank may also provide, or assist in arranging, last resort financial support where this is needed to avoid systemic damage.

The Bank's position at the heart of the financial system is reflected in the 1997 Memorandum of Understanding with HM Treasury and the Financial Services Authority. While the Financial Services Authority is regulator of individual financial institutions, the Bank is responsible for the "overall stability of the financial system as a whole". The Bank works to address perceived threats and improve the overall robustness of the financial system. Often this involves co-operation with Government, regulators, other central banks, infrastructure providers and market participants. The Bank's Annual Report describes the range of this work.

The Bank's assessment of risks to financial stability and ways of promoting and maintaining a stable financial system is published in its twice-yearly Financial Stability Review. The Bank has also published a paper on Oversight of Payment Systems, which describes how the Bank approaches the task of promoting safe and efficient payments infrastructure.
===========================================================
$hifty

PS

What if the Hokey Pokey
really is what it's all about?


LOL


SHIFTY (07/10/01; 23:35:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 57869)
Bank of England web site
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/Links/setframe.html
At this link you can see the Auction Results when they are released.

$hifty

SHIFTY (07/10/01; 23:15:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 57868)
Ponzi Today
http://home.columbus.rr.com/rossl/gold.htm
I just figured the Ponzi for today and came up with 6,069.21 Ponzi.
If you look at the Ponzi chart and draw a line down the lows ,and extend it to FRIDAY the 13 ( this Friday ) its off the chart below 5,500 Ponzi.
Should be interesting to see where it goes by Friday.

Sir RossL : You may need to excavate the basement again soon.

:-)

$hifty

Black Blade (07/10/01; 23:02:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57867)
Asia Awash in Red!
http://quote.yahoo.com/m2?u
Asian Market crash continues! Looking absolutely ugly in Asian markets tonight - especially Hang Seng and Nikkei. Gols has done quite well in the respective currencies - wealth preservation.

Black Blade (07/10/01; 22:52:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 57866)
DECLARING IT RECESSION
http://nypostonline.com/business/34429.htm

Snippit:

July 10, 2001 -- IT looks as if the judges of the U.S. economy are getting close to declaring a recession. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has been reading this column. We started sinking last year after the wealth that was artificially created by the stock market bubble and the Internet craze started draining out of the economy.

Also missed by almost everyone is that the NBER (National Bureau of Economic Research, a private Cambridge, Mass., think tank that was founded in 1920 and has been umpiring the economy ever since). went out of its way recently to debunk the myth that two quarters of contractions equals a recession. Instead, the group offers this definition: "A recession is a significant decline in [economic] activity spread across the country, lasting more than a few months, visible in industrial production, employment, real income and trade."

Black Blade: Trust me - it's a Recession! The government agencies are masters of the game. The BLS has been hiding the facts of the high rates of inflation through trickery and bogus statistical manipulation (not hard really - I see researchers do it all the time in the name of science). If it isn't a Recession, then it's the Damnedest non-recession that I've ever seen.


Solomon Weaver (07/10/01; 22:50:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 57865)
(No Subject)
http://www.prudentbear.com/credit.htm
Doug Noland....a good read....

Black Blade (07/10/01; 22:40:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 57864)
RE: uponroof - INDIVIDUAL INVESTOR GOES BELLY-UP
http://nypostonline.com/business/34459.htm

Snippit:

July 10, 2001 -- Jonathan Steinberg and Individual Investor have finally run out of gas. The magazine's CEO and editor - perhaps best know as the husband of Maria Bartiromo and son of Saul Steinberg - said he was shutting down the publication with the August issue and laying off 50 people - about 90 percent of the staff at the Individual Investor Group.

Ad pages at all the personal finance publications have been plunging in the double-digit range this year - and no bottom appears to be in sight. Steinberg recruited his wife, the "Money Honey," to appear as an I.I. cover girl this year. But the gimmick was not enough to reverse the magazine's fortunes.

Black Blade: A sign of the times as more finance publications will go tits up. Notice how ragged Maria has been looking lately on CNBC? Probably burning the candle at both ends. As far as these publications are concerned, I will stick with the castle's "News and Views" thankyou.


Canuck (07/10/01; 22:13:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 57863)
@ KarenSue
Your HOF nomination comes quickly given your 'newbie-ness'
to this forum; you are familiar to this procedure, yes?

Canuck (07/10/01; 22:10:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 57862)
@ HBM
Please post as you see fit.

Canuck (07/10/01; 22:08:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57861)
@ Galearis
Thanks and noted.

Silver collecting is a serious business.

Black Blade (07/10/01; 21:57:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57860)
U.S. firms say no plans yet to cut gas drilling
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010710/n10231537.html

Snippit:

HOUSTON, July 10 (Reuters) - U.S. energy exploration and production companies said Tuesday they had no plans for the time being to ease off drilling for natural gas, despite a big drop in prices this year amid signs supply is running ahead of demand as the nation's economy continues to slow down.

Black Blade: Overall NG prices are still about 2 to 3 times higher than average. Drill increases, yet production is static. Yet I know of two major NG producers that have stopped or cutback NG drilling for now. Maybe to pick up in the fall when demand increases. Add to all this that virtually all new power generation is NG-fired. This is why I am somewhat amused when "Red" Davis "Christens" a new NG-fired power plant and then smuggly announces that all is well when no consideration is given how these new power plants are to be fueled when NG demand picks up. Note that many out-of-state NG and electricity providers now refuse to do business in California. Should get "interesting." BTW, more energy surcharges are being added to the cost of services in the World's 6th largest economy.


Black Blade (07/10/01; 21:44:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 57859)
Utility sold power, then scrambled to buy before Vegas blackout
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/07/10/state1356EDT0154.DTL&type=news

Snippit:

Nevada Power Co. sold electricity, then scrambled as temperatures soared to buy it back before imposing first-ever rolling blackouts in the Las Vegas area. "When it gets hot all over the region, there's not much surplus on the spot market," Hunter said. "The supply was so tight that (other utilities were) holding back for their own operating resources."

Black Blade: oops! - can happen anywhere - anytime.


uponroof (07/10/01; 21:40:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 57858)
A Few of Interesting tidbits From 'The American Advisor' Today
From the 'Times are Tough on Wall St.' dept.

Jonathan Stienberg, son of famous financier Sol Stienberg, who also happens to be married to Maria Bartoromo, of CNBC cheerleading fame, has just shut down his latest business venture....the magazine "Individual Investor". So it seems while Maria was busy on TV brainwashing the unwashed, hubby was busy buying ink to do the same. One could say they have made a nice living selling bad information. What a nice couple.

**********

From the 'more bullish on gold' dept.

Oppenheimer and Company:
200 page report just out.

Gold and Precious Metals: Bullion Breakout Upgrade for the Sector

"...The price of gold has broken through several technical and pyschological barriers. We believe the trend is still in it's infancy and is destined to be both sustainable and real. Accordingly we upgraded the sector and adjusted our reccomendations to match the times. We believe that there has been a recent positive change in the sentiment toward gold. The reasons for this change lie mainly with the possible decline in the U.S. dollar coupled with the possible increase in inflation.... Historically these changes have resulted in a postive indicator for gold. Latest economic figures show the first decline in productivity in six years. Accompaning the productivity decline was the announcement of a rise in labor costs at an annualized rate of 4.5%. The fastest pace in 7 years. Together these indicate an inflation increase may be nearing. On the gold side non commercial holders of gold have moved to net long positions for the first time in almost a year. There have been only 7 instances of net long positions for this group for the past 5 years. Each time gold prices have moved positively..."

Summary: Oppenheimer is expecting gold to average over 290 per oz for the rest of 2001.

**********

From the 'Why should I buy rare coins' dept.

MS 64 or above (65,66) St Guadens gold becomming very, very scarce. At a recent coin show of 200+ dealers, NO (nada) MS 64,65,66 Guadens coins were found FOR SALE.

**********

As I said, above bits from The American Advisor' today.

btw-I see where GATA has finally thrown in the towel on the Bush Administration coming clean. They're right, this means the gold market skeletons are very nasty and to be protected at all costs by any sitting gummint, conservative or liberal. However, the control of the strong dollar remains paramount in their plans...so then must control of POG be also.

Translation: the equilibrium of POG is verbotten, but they are gonna try like hell to adjust it to their liking. I don't put this difficult task past them..........BUT
there are an awful lot of triggers out there in this big ol dangerous world, that better not get pulled while the adjusting is going on. They have been managing POG for so long that it will not surprise me if they 'get sloppy' somewhere soon.

Black Blade (07/10/01; 21:37:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 57857)
Davis' criticism of Texas misdirected, report finds
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/07/10/MN48875.DTL&type=news

Snippit:

Sacramento -- Texas-based electricity generators have received the brunt of criticism from Gov. Gray Davis for gouging California during the power crisis, but financial information released yesterday shows the lion's share of the money went elsewhere. Earlier this year, Davis lambasted the Bush administration for not acting against power firms in his home state. "What's going on here, pure and simple, is unconscionable price-gouging by the big energy producers -- most of them, incidentally, located in Texas," he said in May.

Black Blade: Head locust caught in a lie! "Red" Davis and his cronies will still have to explain a lot as energy costs are still about 4 times higher than average and these costs are being passed on to consumers. Consumers are also being hit with high energy costs. Don't fret as it is not in the "Core-Rate" so all is well. I guess the euphemism they use here is "aberration." Hmmm… Times are getting "interesting." Today I heard a lot about an expected "Summer Rally." WHAT! Summer is traditionally a terrible time for the markets and especially the "Sector Du Jour." Techs have typically been pummeled during the Summer months.

Time is right to buy into depressed sectors that grossly undervalued. There are few more undervalued than gold. Unbelievably I heard this point made by an "analyst." This "analyst" Barry B. Bannister of Legg Mason Wood, said: It usually pays to buy an asset that has been deflated for a long time. Ans I believe that gold is relatively safe from downside risk - something that you can't say about stocks right now." (Individual Investor, August 2001). What the hell happened here? An analyst coming clean? Hold on ….. I have to go check to see if hell froze over….


Gandalf the White (07/10/01; 21:13:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 57856)
ASIA is in the RED again tonight !
Gold will shine like nothing else in this world!
<;-)

Gandalf the White (07/10/01; 20:58:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 57855)
More on the Chinese GOLD market !
http://biz.scmp.com/ZZZ7SVUNZOC.html
Wednesday, July 11, 2001
"China reforms present golden opportunity"
by ENOCH YIU

Hong Kong's gold exchange will undergo the biggest reforms in its 91-year-history in a bid to capitalise on the opening up of the mainland market. The reforms include a substantial extension in trading hours and the introduction of an electronic trading system, while a new high-purity gold product will be launched in autumn.

Fung Chi-kin, president of the Chinese Gold & Silver Exchange Society, said the measures all served one goal - to ensure Hong Kong's gold market would attract international and mainland investors.

"We must ensure our products, trading-system and trading-hours can match what the international investors want," he said. "It is only if the Hong Kong exchange has active trading activities that the international houses will choose it as a hub to expand in China."

Last year, about 128 tonnes of gold were imported into Hong Kong, compared with 800 tonnes to India - the world's largest gold importer.

Mr Fung expected Hong Kong's gold imports to rise significantly once China lifted its import ban after it entered the World Trade Organisation. "International firms would like to use Hong Kong as a re-export centre to transfer gold products to China," he said. "But we must upgrade our exchange first or these business opportunities will be lost to another regional centre."

Established in 1910, the Chinese Gold & Silver Exchange Society offers Chinese gold trading in Hong Kong dollars.
Trading volume reached its peak in the 1970s and 1980s when the global gold market was booming, but volume has diminished since the 1990s.

Investors have switched to trade London Gold - in US dollars - in an over-the-counter market operated by international gold brokers and banks on an electronic system 24 hours a day.

"The Hong Kong gold exchange has lagged behind what investors need and it is time for us to catch up," Mr Fung said.

The new product to be introduced in autumn will be a gold bar with purity of 99.99 per cent. Mr Fung said many of the exchange's 190 member firms were jewellery manufacturers who tended to use more of the 99.99 per cent purity gold.

He estimated that when the new gold bars were introduced, the daily turnover of the exchange could increase from HK$400 million to HK$2.5 billion.

The new product will be traded in Hong Kong dollars but will have reference settlement prices in yuan and US dollars, to cater to the needs of international investors.

The extended trading hours will see the closing time change to 2.30am from 4.30pm, to match the active gold markets in London and New York. The exchange now trades from 9am to 12.30pm, then 2.30pm to 4.30pm. Mr Fung said an electronic trading system was needed to cope with the extended trading hours. "We have been in talks with several technology companies to introduce an electronic gold trading system for our members," he said.

The start of the extended trading hours will depend on when the electronic trading system can be introduced. The exchange would maintain floor-based open-outcry in the existing trading hours, but then use the electronic system to trade from 4.30pm until 2.30am, Mr Fung said.

He said the exchange was also in talks with mainland authorities on how its members could become involved in the proposed Shanghai gold exchange. One proposal was for mutual membership so that the members of the two exchanges could trade each other's products.
====
<;-)



KarenSue (07/10/01; 20:56:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57854)
HOF nomination

Randy @ The Tower Re: your post # 57835

That was a remarkable piece of work. The subject: "Delving into the meaning of money"

Please do not hold me to perfection in my count. In your post the following words appeared in the following quantities:

Currency---------------6 times
Banks or Banking----11 times
System-----------------16 times
Credit-------------------23 times
Gold--------------------27 times

Nothing remarkable about this. What was remarkable was the way you wrote about money without using the word even once. Did you do this on purpose? I thought it was ingenious. You did use the word monetary twice but monetary is only a "derivative" (grin) of the word money.

You agree with me. You say, "Again, only gold metal has the beneficial asset qualities of gold metal." Exactly! The metal content in gold is intrinsic. Why does gold not circulate as currency? The answer, no currency is as good as gold. Even the dollar has never been as good as gold. Bad currency drives out good. Any currency available will circulate (substitute) in place of gold. Gold is money. Any commodity can be money. Currency is only a substitute. Substitute chicken is not chicken. Salt substitute is not salt. A substitute for gold is not gold. Gold has never not been money. Fiat has zero intrinsic value. The energy required to burn paper is more expensive than paper.

I believe you said that possession is 10 tenths of the law. We are in agreement.

Note to Peter: - a medium of exchange does not have to be money. M1, M2, M3, etc. are pure propaganda terms. They are measures of credit not measures of money. C1, C2, C3 etc. would be accurate.

Only me

KS


megatron (07/10/01; 20:43:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 57853)
And another thing...
If the average poster here has trougle 'getting it' how will the ignoramus' of Europe(same ratio as NA,BTW) EVER get it? Oh I forgot they have a 'mystical understanding and sublime,historical view of gold's conection to wealth'. What an absolute crock. That is seriously delusional thinking. A voting moron is a voting moron, and the parliament of whores in EU is FULL of them, just like here. The only thing they've cornered the maket on is mass delusional thinking,apparently

HUGE Example; Switzerland. If you can hood-wink the gold from under their feet,and they sit there and watch!, then you've proven that the rest of em are gonna be a cakewalk.
The euro is going to be nice colored toilet paper just as the rest. And gold trading will be outlawed, just like here.

Where does the idea that the Eu is some how, today, chock full of egalitarian,deep thinking'statemen come from? It has no basis in fact. Europe is a socialist's wildest dream come true! The belief that someone is going to wave his hand and the followers of Marx/Keynes are going to repent is worse than the easter bunny. At least there is a mathematical chance a rabbit COULD leave an egg at your house.

Tree in the Forest (07/10/01; 20:21:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 57852)
uponroof, sector, megatron
Michael has reminded us that many dollars are required for oil payments to the mideast. Thank you Michael, I had forgotten about that. We have therefore a number of issues causing strong dollar demand. As to the question of how high will it go, we may not have the chance to see 140, Pragmatics prediction. This game is about over. By August, it will be a different ballgame and that's not just my prediction. Apparently TG/Another felt the jig was up too. I think a significant market drop is imminent. Also terrorist attacks on the US. All of this will hit almost simultaneously. They have postponed this endlessly until everything is ready to blow at once. The politicos need a scapegoat to blame for what is about to happen. It will be their hired boogeymen, Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Europe will be added later.

Many people blame Greenspan for our current situation in one fashion or another. I don't. His hands are tied. He is administering CPR to a dieing currency. He's held things together as best he can. Some see him as savior, others as devil. I see him as neither. He's just an ordinary man, up against the wall. He knows what's about to happen and he knows that he'll be blamed for it. Anyway, that's IMHO.

megatron (07/10/01; 20:19:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 57851)
Tree
I don't understand that guy at all. Furthermore, I was never really clear on whether he believed Pan-European gov't fiat would work or not. He never made it clear;to me. I wish he would have posted the 'Final ShowDown' so I could wrap my 'ignant' Western mind around it.

Tree in the Forest (07/10/01; 19:59:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 57850)
All
My apologies to all if I helped to drive FOA away. When I posted that article about Euro police killing protesters at a WFO meeting, he got very ticked. I think he was angry that I wouldn't turn towards Brussels and genuflect 5 times a day. What can I say? I'm "ungovernable" just like those naughty Brits. Anyone who thinks for himself and refuses to be a sheeple and dance with the marionettes is ungovernable and whether you like it or not, that applies to most of you. Anyone who protests against the pretty paper money that our benificent governments print up for us, could be classified as "ungovernable".

Now we have a currency war. I recently read an article in which there was talk of reprisals against Europe by the US for the EU failure to approve the Honeywell-GE merger. So soon we sill have a trade war. How can I not believe that a shooting war is a strong possibility? I think you can figure out the implications for gold by yourself.

Hipplebeck (07/10/01; 19:50:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 57849)
Middle East
The powers are manuevering to set up someone who is more controllable in Arafats place. It is about to hit the fan.
It is a pattern that has been well worked. Replace those ugly leaders with ones that will work with the Roman Empire.
Caligula has ten faces.

auspec (07/10/01; 19:35:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 57848)
cb2
State of the State
Some of the marionettes are slick, some dress the part and speak from the heart, some cold and calculating, some warm and affable. But the strings, my friend, they change not, the agenda perpetuates. The DoJ defends the predecessors, a house divided cannot stand. It is the same stone wall bumped into many times prior, the lateness of the game is thus demonstrated for all to see. The decision makers have not been seen or met face to face, nor will this happen. The game will not be shortened, but go as all bloodsport contests, or bullfights do, to the bitter terminal end. With a snap of the fingers we get JPM/C and HomoBarrickans, more to follow. The bag is chock full of tricks and we have yet to see the wagging dog, the master[s] trump. There are shades of hats, but NO white ones regrettably. A Bush is a Bush is a Bush, the latter only because of the former. The hand was played out for all to see and take advantage of, we have no secrets, theirs are many and perverse. You don't bring in Wall Street's greatest perpetrator to become Mr. Clean, at least NIMFY.
Enjoin and enjoy the battle, we are thus ultra-alive and armed with more than simple arrogance and greed, bonus points for motive. Much more than the occasional 'clink', 'clink' at stake here, the very freedom af man and markets. Breathe deep, you may have been born for such a time as this! Mama never said it was gonna be easy, but she neither recommended such powerful foes.
The game is on!
auspec

Black Blade (07/10/01; 19:28:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 57847)
The Petition Project
http://www.oism.org/pproject/
The link is to "The Petition Project" and all relevant links.

Horatio (07/10/01; 19:24:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 57846)
Christian Evolution
I agree with Christian that its the desire of the Cabal to own the gold in the ground.
You see it fit perfectly with my theory that it started in South Africa with a desire to get wealth out of the ground and out of the country by selling above ground gold exporting the cash and leaving the in ground gold with a mortgage on it.This activity increased by evolution into a scheme to control all below ground gold.Only when all below ground gold in South Africa is mortgaged will the Cabal resort to buying gold stocks and run them to 100 x earnings
and use those PAPAR profits to unhedge thier positions.

Black Blade (07/10/01; 19:21:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 57845)
RE: Tree in the Forest - Kyoto Accords and the Petition Project


I agree that the UN sanctioned report and the so-called science touting "Man Induced Global Warming" is flawed. I am one of the scientists who affixed his signature to the petition that opposes the Kyoto Accords (The Petition Project) and questions the validity of the data and conclusions expressed in the UN global warming report. The major contributors of greenhouse gases include volcanic activity, evaporation of H2O, and even livestock flatulence. I will address this issue later perhaps. However, I thank you as this issue is ridiculous and over 90% of serious scientists question the validity of selectively using "gleaned" data to achieve a desired end result in research. Atmospheric temperature data from NASA strongly suggests "global cooling" - imagine that. Of course it is no wonder then that the only European signatory nation is Romania (Kyoto Accords), even the Brits and other major European governments won't sign it, yet they criticize the US position. Why won't they lead the way as shining examples to the big bad Americans? I think we know the answer. Cheers!

- Black Blade


CoBra(too) (07/10/01; 18:09:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 57844)
The 17 hundred tons at West Point - Reclassified!
... From wholly owned - to Custodial Gold Bullion and now to Deep Gold Storage, along with some Working Stock and other hock to muddy the waters some more!
No need, mud in the eyes of the new admin, as they didn't distance them from the sin(s) of their predecessors, ever. The blame of the game of the folly to perpetuate this sickening shame will now stick to the name of the republican Elephants. All I can say - they've had a chance ... and what's to say to my dismay, the abyss was too deep to even weep about the decay of ethics - as the survival of the monetary (dung) heap and its leeches, too big to fray, may be standing in the way to reap the riches of a 'Freeway'; Bitches, I'd say!

And since there may be no way to escape or defuse the aftermath of the path the Clinton, Rubin et al economic and monetary abuse, I can't understand the diffuse signs of excuse and absolutions by the O'Neills, who'll accept being burried by newly minted deep storage.

Good riddance to an inept concept of truth - and let them carry the blame, the shame and finally the consequences!

If this admin can't even cope with the scope of 8 years of Clintonian dope, then I won't give a Cent for the prolongation of the event - the Dollarization - ... is coming to its end.

... See you after Genoa - cb2



Christian (07/10/01; 17:43:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57843)
Money creation
Our money is owned by a group who own for profit banks that make up the FED. Treasury gold has now been reclassified from custodial gold to deep storage. It used to be that gold limited money creation. Now credit creation gold made up of a number of commodities (metals, grains, oils and natural gas) and housing make possible money creation. Our central banks gold short position is to corner the market on gold still in the ground. The quantity of money and the interest rates are set by the monetary authority to fit the needs of those who need it. It is in their interest to corner the gold still in the ground. China is a late commer to this game and has figured it out. They are now doing the same- tie up future production to be used as we do as government bank reserve for money creation. This money creation can be used to built or purchase military hardware. Gold and silver=control. Whoever owns the gold and silver also controls government and people. Gold going into deep storage is a good choice of words. For the USA and most of Europe deep storage is at BIS to settle ever increasing trade deficits.

Randy (@ The Tower) (07/10/01; 17:38:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 57842)
Perplexed (msg#: 57838)
The only thing you have demonstrated to me with that post is that you lack patience, and also that you trust the thoughts of others above your own.

And on that second account, a necessary mixture is my recommendation to you and all others. A wise one once said: "Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous."

How many people base their thoughts upon the belief they have properly "learned" the essence of money? How many have seriously given thought to what they are learning in the course of their life?

The bullseye of a target exists independent of the archers' efforts. Our goal is to examine the nature of this Center. Do not limit yourself by the study only of the flight paths of potentially errant arrows, even though they be the best effort of legendary "bowmen" like Rothbard or Mises or any other contestant anyone might care to mention. Follow their direction perhaps, but to know the center you must inevitably put your OWN eyes and thoughts (without outside distraction) upon the central mark.

If you, for example, must cite others as authoritative proof of the truth of a matter, then I shall ask you this: Who was cited, in turn, by the authorities that you have cited?

The ability to discover truth lies independently within every man -- if only he dare to embark upon the journey.

Orville Goldenbacher (07/10/01; 17:21:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 57841)
Hill Billy "Gold" Mitchell
That was nice ;-), thanks! Great to see you!!!

Hill Billy Mitchell (07/10/01; 15:42:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 57840)
Mutilation of the English language
Correction of post # 57837

"The clay simply does not have the right to demand an answer to the question from the potter, "Why hast thou made me thus?"

Should read, "The clay simply does not have the right to demand from the potter an answer to the question, "Why hast thou made me thus?"

Respectfully,

HBM


Hill Billy Mitchell (07/10/01; 15:36:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 57839)
Lady Leigh - If only I could unsubmit.

I did not mean to post the letter on the forum. I try to work off-line when I write whether for the forum or e-mail. I copied the e-mail from draft status to the USAGOLD forum posting link with no intention of posting it until I had sent the letter to you and awaited your consent. I truly meant to send the e-mail to you and await your consent before posting it on the forum. We use the same telephone line for our fax machine and the Internet. My wife surprised me by asking me to disconnect when I did not even know I was on line. She needed to send a business related fax. In a hurry to get finished and disconnect I submitted the post rather than sending the e-mail. I have blundered horribly. Now I have led the readers of the forum to believe that I had posted it with your consent and you have no valid posting code with which to defend yourself. It is as if I finally did give down hill skiing a go, suffering a serious spill, such that I may not survive. Please forgive me.

Very respectfully,

HBM


Perplexed (07/10/01; 15:32:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 57838)
Response to Randy #57804

Sorry Randy for the choice of words responsible for raising your blood pressure, the forum seems to be experiencing a plague of this lately.

Randy (@ The Tower) (07/09/01; 22:27:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 57804)
Corners? I scarcely think so.... [Perplexed (msg#: 57782)]
P: --- "When Randy and TG decreed that theirs was the only correct answer to the question...on what is and what is not money he and Randy had painted themselves into a corner."--- Decreed??? Why the inflammatory tenor? Please be aware that I have thus far, since posing the question, merely been setting the stage for a larger presentation on the
"Meaning of Money".


Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 03:41:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 57145)

ji, great question!!!! "Are we discussing the concept of money or real money?"
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/liberty.html

Thanks for pointing out this need for clarification. To be sure, we are to embark upon an examination of the very ESSENCE of money. As some of us maybe shall see in the course of this, there is nothing "real" (i.e., tangible) about money at all.

Perplexed:

It seems to me that in this unequivocable CLEARIFICATION on the ESSENSE of money, in which you state ,"there is nothing "real" (i.e., tangible) about money at all".
proves my assertion (written long after your quote) that you have indeed painted yourself into a corner.

If the ESSENCE of money is defined by the fact that it is nothing real nor tangible, then common sense dictates that we are faced with nothing with which to define it.

This puts us back to my statement that " the definition of money like the definition of beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder"

CONTINUEING THE QUOTE FROM YOUR POST 57145

"This following adds to his definition of money the previous It is almost certain that, because of their affinity for gold, gold advocates will struggle against this notion more so than the general population. However, it should not be felt that gold is somehow made less meritorious because of its disconnect from the essence of "money" any differently
than gold is affected by its disconnect from the essence of "language" : Unquote

Perplexed

The disconnect of gold from language is understandable, gold is not language per se, however, the disconnect of money from anything real of tangable means that anything
within anyones mind can serve as money. This gets us into ghost stories.

Randy and Money
rc (06/29/01; 09:24:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 57157)
What is money?
Definition of money in the strict meaning of the word : something generally accepted as a medium of exchange , a measure of value, or a means of payment. Such as gold, silver, copper, wampum, cattle or whatever you can exchange against anything else.

Perplexed

Thank you RC

This very brief definition is probably the best description tendered in the entire discussion!

Of course every item qualifies as matter in the fact that it has weight and takes up space, thus, according to Randy's definition of the essence of money, it cannot qualify.

Sorry RC, no ghost, no qualify.


AND NOW BACK TO RANDY AT THE TOWER


Continueing the post:
Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 03:41:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 57145)

Did someone instill upon us at our birth that the essence of "language" would or should be tangible gold? Probably not. And not surprisingly, the fact that it isn't gold probably
strikes us as no great cause for concern.

Might then also the essence of"money" with respect to tangible gold be seen as an innocent relation that is naturally distinct from each other? Let's try for a while to shake off our preconceived notions andsee where things might lead us.

I will get more fully into the fundamental issue of "value" in a later post, but now seems like a good time to build further upon this tentative parallel of "money" with "language". As we have it now, our generally accepted monetary units (e.g., the "dollar") all by itself
has almost no meaning; very much like an individual letter (e.g., "M").


Perplexed

Lets do indeed explore the essence of language as it pertains to money. One question must be answered: Just whose money are we defining? Because the focus on this
discussion has been heavily weighted toward the US Dollar, let define it!

Fortunately we have no farther to look than the Constitution of the United States which unequivocally states that no state shall make anything other than gold or silver as money of account.

This occurred only because the respective states had agreed to allow the federal government to coin the money of the nation and to set its value.

The coinage act of 1792, by defining money in the terms of weights and measures set the standard for money within the United States. If you will remember there were gold and silver certificates circulating in exchange for the actual metal.

As I have stated previously, the fact that an executive order by Roosevelt making it illeagle to own gold merely created criminals of innocent citizens by fiet.

It did not change the lawful status of gold, only an amendment to the Constitution can accomplish this. Gold and silve are still the "lawful" money of the United States.

Under lawful conditions even today, the only response to the offer that I will give you $ l0,000 for your car, would be a question. Are we talking Dollars of gold or Dollars of silver.


Randy (@ The Tower) (06/29/01; 03:41:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 57145)

"As we have it now, our generally accepted monetary units (e.g., the "dollar") all by itself has almost no meaning; very much like an individual letter (e.g., "M")."

Perplexed

ONLY IN YOUR MIND

Randy I repeat my assertion that you have painted yourself into a corner. I have researched many other statements which prove that contrary to your claim, you have been
doing no more than just fishing for definitions.

Your continued promise of a forthcoming treatise has remained just than, a promise. Because you obviously regard all definitions containing anything of substance as money, wrong, it may be reasonably assumed, and is by me, that in your mind, you are one of the few on the site capable of defining money and this definitive treatise will crown you Money Guru of the Forum.

You have only one legitiment rebuttal of this post, THE POSTING OF THE DEFITIVE DEFINITION OF MONEY PER RANDY.

WHAT SAY YOU OTHER REGULAR POSTERS?

Perplexed



Hill Billy Mitchell (7/10/01; 14:05:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 57837)
An open letter to the lovely "Lady Leigh"
Dear Leigh

I agree. Sunday was a sad day, very very sad.

Concerning your encouragement for me to resume posting, I must say that the word, "Oath" is rather strong. Did I use that word? Even if I used the word "vow" (I do not remember and decided not to look it up at this time) it would also have been two strong a word.

Let me preach to myself and tell myself, "never say never".

The temptation to post on the forum without your having posted first no longer would apply in any event. Here's why: The fact that you tried to post and found that your code was no longer valid would take me off the hook. I do not have your final post in front of me but if memory serves me correctly you made the request that your password be removed. I know first hand that your password would not have been removed except upon your request. Michael loves having you as a part of the forum. When you attempted to post the reason that your code was rejected was USAGOLD had previously complied with your request to have your code removed.

The real reasons for not posting after you informed me that you made an attempt were many. I have had only time for lurking as I have been entertaining guests and attending family reunions and such. Also when the occasion arose a couple of times when I wanted to contribute, temporary upheaval had set in (precipitated by working-kirk, Another/FOA) and things were getting so dangerously out of hand that I did not want my name to be associated with that area of the band width.

I am waiting for an opportunity to post again when I feel that things have settled down. I had much to say but was afraid that I would just add fuel to the fire.

The more I observe from without, by only lurking, the more I am persuaded that Michael and, Randy, have done yeoman's work in holding this fragile situation together, mainly by refraining to enter into the fray. I regret some of my past attempts to police the forum for the simple reason that I am beginning to see that it is not my responsibility. So many, myself included, have used posting privileges to try to mold the forum to meet our own concepts of how it should be. It is not the posters forum. It is MK's forum. I have come to the conclusion that he is the forum. If he makes rules so be it. If he enforces the rules so be it. If he is selective in enforcing the rules, so be it. If he approves a posting code so be it. If he revokes a posting privilege so be it. If he makes a mistake he has to bear the brunt. When finds that a misunderstanding has occurred he rectifies the situation. If he did not do so that would be okay. The success or failure of the forum is up to him not the posters. If he no longer desires to have a particular poster so be it. If you or I do not like the way he runs his forum then we have the option of not posting or complaining and or disrupting as if we had rights, which have been violated. We say what we want at the risk of not being acceptable and if Michael does not want to put up with a particular poster for what has been said or how it has been said then so be it. The clay simply does not have the right to demand an answer to the question from the potter, "Why hast thou made me thus?"

It is my hope that things will settle down before Michael pulls the plug. It is my hope that all posters would quit second-guessing him and let him do what he has a right to do – make all decisions subject only to his judgment. In the passage of time the posting privileges of those who remain or are eventually reinstated will work out for the best of Michael's forum. Those who lurk or post or both may leave any time they want. In the end we will find that this forum belongs to him and no one else. Randy could be gone (replaced by someone else) though I doubt it and yet it will be Michael's forum. What's fair is what Michael says if fair, period.

No one has more admiration of Journeyman than do I, but what has transpired has been a regrettable series of mishaps which could not have been anticipated by either Journeyman or Michael. Had both of them know what was coming, I am quite certain that those mishaps would have been avoided. It is my hope that Journeyman will see that these unfortunate events were a result of just doing some things that had not ever been done before, by both him and Michael. Who could ever guessed that FOA would have misunderstood Journeyman's post so badly. Michael has not had a lot of practice of hosting a forum before. Journeyman has not had a lot of practice of setting up his own web site before. I have not had a lot of practice at down hill skiing and believe me if I were to make a go at it I would expect to suffer some serious spills and might not even survive. This forum may not survive. Journeyman may not survive as a poster on USAGOLD. If so then all will be losers.

I love the forum. Some of the posters turn my stomach. I turn the stomach of some of the posters. Yet there is something to be said for having a stomach at all.

After having written this to you I am considering posting it to the forum; however I would not do so without your consent.

Very respectfully,

Hill Billy Mitchell


Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (7/10/01; 13:03:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 57836)
Hard assets... Easy access! Gold and silver collectible and bullion coins
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/st_gaudens.html

Permission to reprint is hereby granted where the USAGOLD name is cited along with our web address, mailing address and phone number. For electronic reproductions, citing the post heading and the http://www.usagold.com/cpmforum/ website address as the source is sufficient.

Tuesday February 7
website support: sitemaster@usagold.com
Site Map - Privacy- Disclaimer
The USAGOLD logo and stylized gold coin pile are trademarks of Michael J. Kosares.
© 1997-2012 Michael J. Kosares / USAGOLD All Rights Reserved