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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 3/9/2001
All times are U.S. Mountain Time

(Yesterday's Discussion.)

megatron (03/09/01; 23:02:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 49727)
Junior
Anyone here interested in doing some DD check out Geomaque GEO.TSE A very well managed company with two excellent gold/silver mines operating and a very new palladium prospect in Ontario.

Sierra Madre (03/09/01; 22:20:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 49726)
Horatio...about my amusement
"Horatio at the Bridge"

"Lars Porsena of Clusium
By the Nine Gods he swore
That the brave house of Tarquin
Should suffer wrong no more..."

Noble member of the House of Oratii, you misunderstand my amusement.

I laugh at human folly, at the Devil himself, who does not understand laughter, which confounds him...

I smile at deceit, stupidity, wickedness, cruelty, avarice..
Fools and villains, I laugh at you!

I smile at the destruction of our once proud Christian Western Civilization, from which Christ has been banished by those fools and villains, who have thought they could do without God.

I smile with amusement, because if our ship is foundering, and we are about to be swallowed up in the waves, I shall not give the forces of evil the satisfaction of seeing me bowed and cowering, and I hope to face my end, whenever it may come, sooner or later, smiling.

Sierra Madre


Horatio (03/09/01; 22:18:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 49725)
Turkey
Turkey ,lira goes into free-fall 1,000,000 to the Dollar
If the people had converted to gold prior ,they would hold thier own.Japan next? A Race to the bottom ?

SHIFTY (03/09/01; 22:06:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 49724)
Cavan Man
I only hold the un-hedged gold stocks.

Just may sell some soon to buy more metal.

$hifty


Cavan Man (03/09/01; 21:34:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 49723)
AU Lease Rates
Kitco site just updated. 1 Mo. @ roughly 6 7/8%. That's up from late afternoon I believe.

Shifty: You need large #@$$% to trade stocks in this type of environment IMHO.

SHIFTY (03/09/01; 21:31:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 49722)
Interesting article worthy of note:
http://pub5.ezboard.com/fyourdontimebomb2000.showMessage?topicID=25794.topic

I saw this on another site and followed it to several sites. I was enjoying it so much I stopped reading it to share it with everyone here.

$hifty

----------------------------------------------------------

I now paste shamelessly from Silican Investor Board, because this is the EXAMPLE of what was described in the PPT thread. >>>>>>

To:Casaubon who wrote (2258)
From: Rich Gottlieb Wednesday, Mar 7, 2001 10:40 PM
View Replies (5) | Respond to of 2373

To All:
Interesting article worthy of note:

Here are excerpts from tonight's Goran Yordanoff www.TradingMarkets.com [hotlink in case someone wants to search]

At the close yesterday, Lewis Borsellino's Teachtrade posted that Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch were big S&P futures buyers at the close. I scratched my head and wondered why they would be buying when the Dow and S&P indexes put in such terrible trading sessions and had formed very bearish candlestick formations on their charts. This morning's events answered my question.
In a blatantly obvious and manipulative move by Goldman Sachs to produce a positive market environment for the two IPOs it is bringing to market this week, Ms. Abby Cohen (The Ghost of Bubblemania Past), GS's chief market analyst and cheerleader extraordinaire was paraded shamelessly on CNBC once again this morning. Ms. Cohen felt compelled to help us realize that unless we increased our exposure to equities, we were going to miss the boat. I hope all of you read my column from yesterday to recognize what is taking place here.

It seemed like Goldman and pals had to pull out the big guns premarket this morning because yesterday's close made this market look like McGyver and a case of duct tape couldn't hold it together.

I found an interesting post on a message board thread by a Mark L. that summarized Ms. Cohen's track record for the past year:

- On April 6th, she recommended her SUPER SEVEN stocks for the long-term: CSCO, DELL, EMC, FDC, ORCL, PMCS, TER. As of yesterday's close, that portfolio is down 46.2%. Long-term is right, because that portfolio needs to go up almost 100% to get back to where she recommended them.

- October 3rd, she recommended BEAS, CSCO, EMC, JNPR, NTAP and ORCL. That portfolio is down 60.2%. Oye vey.

- November 27th, she recommended CSCO (she hadn't had enough), DOX, EMC (she still hadn't had enough), GLW, ITWO, SLR, SUNW, and VRTS. As of yesterday's close, that portfolio is down 39.63%.

Now, Ms. Cohen is trying to convince us to buy once again as she is increasing her exposure to equities from 65% to 70%. Hmm... how does the old saying go?... "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me," I believe.

Very interesting record indeed, wouldn't you agree? Amazing that she still gets television air time with such a dismal record. Fascinating still, is the fact that Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch could so blatantly front-run Abby's premarket call this morning which caused an enormous gap up in all indexes. When a layperson tries to front-run, they end up in handcuffs and the judicial system makes 'an example' out of them. However, it is perfectly fine for the brokerage houses to do the exact same thing whenever they have the opportunity to. Isn't it fascinating that the federal government wants to control virtually every aspect of how we act, work, love, and spend our time in private, yet the Wayne Angells and Abby Cohens of the world can commit these acts of fraud without lifting a regulative eyebrow?

In fact, various brokerage houses came out today with lists of stocks we should "BUY NOW." They are telling us we should be buying equities right now because the economic environment will only get better with the Federal Reserve in a rate easing mode and a potential tax cut later this year. Let's just say I feel a little differently.

Let there be no doubt here, the Titanic is going down but the band is playing as loud as it possibly can.

All week long we have heard portfolio managers and stock gurus tell us how "value is back in vogue" and how you had to buy "old economy" stocks here. However, they failed to specify which sectors they considered to be values. Let's see, can't be the healthcare sector because that is trading at historically high multiples... can't be the retail patch because those are trading at ridiculously high multiples as well. In fact, you cannot find such a sector because such a sector doesn't exist. As I stated yesterday, the Dow index and the various momentum sectors which have been created within the Dow are now experiencing the same parabolic stock moves and stretched valuations we witnessed in the technology sector when the Nasdaq made its blow-off move to 5100. This time, however, noone is warning us of the danger that potentially lies ahead. Rather, we are being told that the consumer will continue to spend and drive this economy out of this listless period. Is that so?

What probably excaped the headlines late in the day as pure euphoria spread throughout the NYSE was the fact that January consumer credit surged $16.1 billion. A $5.3 billion rise was expected. If you don't think this is one of the most serious problems in our economy today, please think again. This figure not only shows an absurd level of complacency throughout society but is quite disturbing in the face of negative personal savings figures and down equity markets. As the savings rate continues to reach new record lows, the conspicuous consumer continues to spend with or without cash. Further, the consumer credit year-on-year growth rate has been continually increasing since May, 1998.

The consumer is tapped out. The analysts and brokerage houses who are trying to sell the argument of the American consumer being a soldier who will fight this economy back to the days of tremendous growth we experienced in 1999 and early 2000 are missing one simple fact: The American consumer cannot fight much longer because they are nearly out of bullets.

It is my opinion that the market is being manipulated here to drive the popular indexes higher in an event to suck in as much sideline cash as possible. There is no telling how long this will last but the only thing I do know is you must fade this move. The current environment does not support daytrading or scalping as moves both up and down are very abrupt and generate little follow through. Rather, being a positional trader at this juncture is the only way I see you can successfully participate in the upcoming move. Accumulating positional short positions is not easy work, nor is it easy on the psyche. The fact that you will undoubtedly endure pain before pleasure is something you must understand and accept before you initiate your first order. Unless you have the intestinal fortitude and psychological strength to endure the silliness that is often generated prior to a major leg down, I suggest you do not attempt this strategy and take a seat on the sidelines. Today was one such day for me as many of my short positions went disgustingly against me. Although I felt like reaching for an airsickness bag all day, I continued scaling in and building my positions in the bloated pigs of the Dow Jones Industrial Average....


Seeker of the Grail (03/09/01; 21:04:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 49721)
Points or View
Thanks, Mr G.

So they are the same except for whom the matriarchs are.

I'm still hoping to get a response to the other questions, so I can make a post about the bees in my bonnet that I wish to vacate, and find a new landlord. Hopefully if anything my next post will create discussion or thought provoking questions. As I have stated before, all I have to offer at this forum of the round table is questions (sorry ORO ) I never mean to offend but Knights and Nobles, ideologically, were supposed to have values, morals and integrity, reality be what it may..

Also Mr. G, please think about this....."value"
There could come a time in our lives, that if someone offered you a fruit bar, or a gold bar you would probably take the bar of fruit. Now ...under those circumstances what has real value.
It really depends upon your relativistic point in time.

To ORO, I personally agree that I do not care for governments, idealistically because inherently,
they take away freedoms bu their inherent right to make rules and laws that affect your individual freedoms. But, wathch out for what you wish it may come true..... thus leaving "mob law" or the law of the jungle. If, that be a concrete jungle, Mr G. and his progeny survive and those up to their armpits in concrete don't.

On the other hand, Galearis, a temperate terrestrial orchid ....so fitting.
Instead of being offended and affronted, temperately, you explained your painful position. But I also live in Ontario. Yes there are goods and bads, rights and wrongs to be seen everywhere. Personally I think things had to change, we were in Ernheart's car heading for the wall at 200 MPH. Thankfully somebody remembered there was a brake pedal and we only hit at 100 MPH. Still painful though I agree. But not quite as painful as ORO's ultimate survival of the fittest, inevitable law of the jungle. I fear that Federally they are heading for the wall at "warp 10" and no one knows what a brake is. In the US they may be a "slip stream speed".

I agree with ORO to the point that we are not free people, we are the controlled, and how we feel about that depends on how benevolent we perceive the one who holds the leash. If we take the cost of all facets of government (taxpayer's input) vs. governments effective output, how does the efficiency formula work out? E= (Output-losses)/input x 100 ??.....do we need government?????......do we want the law of the jungle????

Interesting reading indeed.

May Your Cups Overflow.....(with value)

SOTG

Old Yeller (03/09/01; 20:23:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 49720)
Beesting#49705

Hello,beesting,

I was somewhat surprised as well by the late sell-off in the gold shares.In days of old when we had normal correlation between the gold price and the shares,after a strong week,there would almost always be a dip on Fridays.
As a matter of fact, the morning's action looked familiar,but as the gold price firmed so impressively,the shares started to react as well.

The sell-off affected both hedgers and non-hedgers,also they were prominent mainstream gold names that most investors are familiar with.Gee,if I didn't know better,(smirk),it looked like someone was trying to "paint the tape".Of course,after a strong run on a otherwise bleak week,any profit on anything may look tempting.However,that still doesn't explain the aberation in Goldfields as well as several other lesser known non-hedger names,does it?

As an aside,I've posted a couple of graphs comparing Newmont to the NASDAQ composite.I am not in any way advocating purchase of Newmont,I just find the divergence between the two rather intriguing.I do,however,have great admiration for the management of non-hedging gold companies that have resisted what appears to be intense pressure to join such industry "leaders" such as Barrick and Anglogold.



Mr Gresham (03/09/01; 19:42:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 49719)
Doug Noland -- Credit Bubble Bulletin
http://216.46.231.211/credit.htm
He's in Australia now...

Seeker o.t. Grail --

Thanks for checking in. On my Quest, I passed through Stonehenge, and Cornwall, and Glastonbury, but you know, I was not content until I could pull the car over in a small woodland in Wales, and sleep the night amongst the faerie folk who must still have sheltered there.

So I must have been more of a tree person than I knew, even then. It's a Druid thang, mon.

As for money/fiat/currency, very simple really. Same formula that connects them all: Start with strong paper; Just add faith...(of the human sort), keep away from fear, and don't let the Evil Wizards grow it on trees...

Seeker of the Grail (03/09/01; 19:01:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 49718)
Questions
Hello one and all,

I've just started lurking again, at the court of Merlin, since "someone" in the markets, seems to be giving a "rats derriere" about the POG.

But, my readings, at the court news, confuse this page a bit. If I may ask, and someone would answer, I thought fiat, money and currency were synonymous. If not please explain.

Also, if I may, could anyone tell me the amounts for annual global mined gold, salvaged (reclaimed gold), industrial usage, and the amount that is used in the manufacture of jewelry annually.

Thanks in advance,

Interesting reads these past few days.

Mr Gresham, How are your trees. I thought of you in the post of survival, you will do well I'm sure, I would be concerned if they were rooted in a concrete jungle, but this cannot be since they are so large. With such large trees , this implies land, shelter, and water. These are the real treasures, for they bring heat, creatures both furry and with scales, and the ability to grow veges, for you and yours. Once the glacier does it's annual migration further north it will be great to see my "shangri-la" again.

Has anyone heard from Sir Al Fuchino as of late?
Hope he and the General are fine.

And, I assume Lady Leigh's injury is better.

May your cups overflow

SOTG

slingshot (03/09/01; 18:34:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 49717)
R Powell msg 49716
Don't worry, Be happy. Ah, be happy now.
Slingshot


R Powell (03/09/01; 18:15:59MT - usagold.com msg#: 49716)
(No Subject)

Before Randy beats me to it, let me say that I'd never sell gold to just obtain dollars. But I'd sell some if I had some to become debt free. When POG goes skyward it will probably be because the dollar's value is going the other way so I'd trade my dollars for freedom from debt first and if I had to sell my gold for dollars, you can bet I'd spend the dollars ASAP for whatever it is that compeled me to part with my gold. There. Randy, am I forgiven now?
Rich

R Powell (03/09/01; 17:58:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 49715)
No Respect yet/ maybe soon/ then what?

Even though I saw nothing in the IBD and only a sentence or two on the commodities page in the Journal, perhaps Barron's noticed the gold market/lease rates/mining stocks activity of this past week. We'll see tomorrow.
I know it's hard to comprehend but, most people don't even know that the government's one dollar "golden" coin isn't real! Honestly now, how many of us knew that the price of cocoa increased by one third this year? There are many who won't notice if POG goes to $400 next week. The funds may start covering if POG continues up but we're nowhere near attracting the herd, momentum, stock tip taker, follow the excitement "investor" yet. When/if they arrive, then perhaps we'll see that limit up day I've been dreaming about for so long. Gosh, if it starts to happen, many will have to think about the unthinkable. At what fiat $ price do you think of selling some of the stash in return for paying All the bills in full. Just some of the treasure, of course, but when? Never, if you're debt free and not in need but if not? My physical supply is very small and I'll shed no tears selling paper positions but it may be wise to think now before the urgency/emotions of the moment arrives. If you've no fiat need, then don't worry- be happy.
Rich

R Powell (03/09/01; 17:28:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 49714)
Beesting/mining stocks

The downturn today might have been profit taking. Overall, they are still very much on the upside recently but the temptation to take some winnings off the table at week's end was probably overwhelming for those who have held these companies for so long. I think a few of the G-E guys first bought DROOY in London coffee houses some centuries ago. Whether these stocks rebound next week is the next question.
Other than a very small number (as compared to investors in total) of goldbugs, nobody seems to have noticed that lease rates, mining stocks and POG are signaling something. I read both the IBD and the WSJ today- cover to cover- looking for any word of gold, mining stocks etc. Only on the commodities page of the Journal did I find a mention of gold: "In sympathy with palladium, gold rose 1.4%, or $3.70, to 266.10 an ounce..." To their credit, they did mention that "soaring costs to borrow metal helped drive up its price yesterday", but overall they've no clue.
No one has noticed anything yet. Mining stocks up? Hey, let's take some profit and see if anyone knows what's happening?
Rich

Horatio (03/09/01; 17:23:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 49713)
(No Subject)
Some of my comments in message #49711 were borrowed from Lawrence Parks.

slingshot (03/09/01; 17:16:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 49712)
Horatio, Old Yeller
Today in the business section of my paper "When will Nasdaq bounce back?". Also, "Retail sales results disappointing in February". Looking at the dow jones from Dec.to March, looks like gold trading sideways. Even CNBC took a shot at gold with their Flashback 5000, which said, Gold down 6.5%.
Guess thats when the duck was at 5000.
Joe Sixpack calling Horatio! Joe Sixpack calling Horatio!
Is it time to buy gold? I agree with you. Old Yeller, we may be standing in the golden trenches after a long hunker down period. Waiting to go over the top. Say Gold at $300.00? Myself, I feel the squeeze of the price of gold vs. availability of physical. But having Fun. How about that Japanese finance minister? Song by The Lovin Spoonful.
What a day for a Daydream. Sing everybody!
Slingshot







Horatio (03/09/01; 17:10:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 49711)
To Sierra Madre : Notes & Tokens
Sir :When Mexico removed "Pay to the bearer on demand"
from thier currency they copied just the same trick the U.S. did.I find it neither amuseing or odd as you seem to.


The role of misrepresentation and nondisclosure, a.k.a. fraud: In order to achieve more
certainty in personal relationships, people enter into agreements, i.e., contracts, which are
governed by an area of law called "contract law." The concept is that the courts will uphold
legal contracts not fraudulently entered into by consenting adults. This is commonly referred to
as the "Rule of Law." A vital subset of contract law deals with promises to pay. In their most
elemental form, contracts to pay are called "promissory notes."

For a promissory note to be legally valid, it must have these four elements:

1. A "maker," i.e., a person or entity that will make payment;
2. A payee, i.e., a person or entity that will receive payment;
3. An amount to be paid; and,
4. A date certain when payment is due.
If any of these four elements is missing, then the promissory note is deemed to be defective
under the law and cannot be enforced.[1]

When the Federal Reserve legislation was passed in 1913, the Federal Reserve was
empowered to issue Federal Reserve Notes that were, in fact, promissory notes.[2] The
maker was the Federal Reserve. The payee was the "Bearer." The amount of the note was the
face amount. And the due date was "On Demand."
In 1963, Federal Reserve notes, as shown in Figure 2 below, began omitting the due date and
the payee. Yet, these pieces of paper continue to be called "Federal Reserve Notes."

The omission of a payee and a due date while continuing to call these pieces of paper "notes" is
a material misrepresentation and constitutes fraud.

Fraud: (1) DECEIT, TRICKERY: a: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce
another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right; b: an act of
deceiving or misrepresenting. (2) TRICK a: one who is not what he pretends to be;
CHEAT b: one that is not what it seems or is represented to be. [Webster's Ninth New
Collegiate Dictionary, P490]



The new Federal Reserve "Notes" are not valid notes. Just as if one takes a sign that says
"dog" and hangs it on a cat, the cat does not become a dog. Similarly, if one identifies a piece
of paper as a "note" which lacks the legal requirements for being a note, it does not become a
note. So, if "Federal Reserve Notes" are not notes, what are they?

In truth, they are just pieces of paper with ink on them. They are paper tickets or, better, they
are tokens. One might argue, "What does it matter? People accept these tokens as payment
for their goods and services and exchange them for the things they need: food, shelter, clothing,
etc. What is the difference whether these pieces of paper are called ‘notes’ or ‘tokens?’" The
answer is: who in their right mind would knowingly save tokens for their retirement or accept
the promise of tokens for their pensions? Not many, in my view. In this way, ordinary people
are being deceived about the nature of their money. This deception is especially relevant for
foreigners who save our fiat money.

Perhaps more important are other misrepresentations having to do with the basic banking
relationship, which is at the root of why the world is swimming in fraudulent fiat money. In the
last century, when money was gold (or silver), banks misrepresented the basic banking
relationship to their customers in two ways. First, they told people that they could get "their"
gold back "on demand." This was a false statement. What they should have said was that
customers could get their gold back on demand provided not too many of them sought to do
so at the same time. Further, banks failed to disclose to depositors that the banks might lose
the gold or have it tied up in "investments" that could not be liquidated in a timely manner
without risk of great loss. In other words, the "on demand" assurance was really conditional,
and this was misrepresented. In addition, banks never disclosed either the nature of the risks
they took or the amounts of leverage they employed.

Second, banks used inadequate terminology to describe the transaction when people put gold
in a bank. Banks called it a "deposit," which misled people into thinking that the gold remained
"theirs." It did not remain theirs. The Courts had held for almost 200 years that gold deposited
into a bank became the bank's gold to do with as the bank wished. Banks could lend that gold
to someone else—generally they lent bank notes which bore the legend "payable to the bearer
on demand in gold"—they could gamble with the gold, purchase stocks or real estate, or
whatever.

In fact, when one "deposited" gold in a bank, or when banks created money by extending a
loan,[3] the gold—or the newly created loan—went onto the bank's balance sheet as a
liability. The customer, rather than remaining the "owner" of "his" gold became an unsecured
creditor of the bank. Historically, ordinary people did not understand this. Were it not for these
two misrepresentations and the undisclosed risks, people would have been much more wary
of banks, and there would have been much greater oversight of bank activities by those who
entrusted them with "their" gold.

The harmful effects of these misrepresentations and the absence of risk disclosure resulted in
people not knowing enough to exert market discipline on banks. As a result, banks were able
to engage in more leverage and more risky behavior than they would have been able to had
there been full disclosure and no misrepresentations. As Mr. Patrick Parkinson recently
testified before the Congress:
Some of these comments are not my own I borrowed them.
As you can see when a government removes "Pay to the Bearer on Demand"from its currency its no longer a promise to pay anything.You can no longer make any claims on Gold held in Federal Reserve banks.They have replaced your "Promise to pay with a TOKEN"
When Mexico removed "Pay to the bearer on demand",they replaced a legal "note" with nothing.Any foreigner holding "Bank of Mexico" paper has a claim on nothing.
The same goes for foreigners holding U.S. paper that used to be "Payable to the Bearer on Demand".
They have no LEGAL claims on anything now.
I do not find that as amusing as you do ,I call it fraud.









































Horatio (03/09/01; 16:14:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 49710)
Devaluation for Sierra Madre
Sierra Madre ,you prove my point,do you think its accidential the peso went from 3000 to the Dollar to 9700 to the Dollar?Don't you see theres a connection?Its not an academic exercise it has real consequences they are masked by the Academics theory bullshit.It has the same effect as a counterfeiter that bleaches the old print off a bill and replaces it with one 100 times higher. Sooner or later the people that produce real goods and services realize whats happening and start demanding more for thier labor.
In addition the Sacagawea coin is FOOLS gold.

Pandagold (03/09/01; 16:11:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 49709)
Beesting and others wondering about today with the mines
Here's one reason - It could have been a last minute snatch of all those who had placed stops.

Here's another: The POG rise was just a short squeeze, and that could have been the case with the mines.

And the one I favour is that those in the know, know that the upside on gold is limited at the present for reasons I have stressed many times, but no one wants to believe (so be it).

I am practising what I preach and making money, not much, but it all adds up. I can wait for the big time, and I am fairly confident when that will be.

No I don't feel smug, and I am not over confident, these are dangerous times - always is when the tide is on the turn

Randy (@ The Tower) (03/09/01; 15:56:26MT - usagold.com msg#: 49708)
Hall of Fame page Four is shaping up nicely with the latest two additions!
http://www.usagold.com/hall/hallfame4.html
Use your weekend reading time wisely....get caught up on EVERYTHING to be found (page one through four) in this special collection of particularly clear expressions of thought.

SHIFTY (03/09/01; 15:36:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 49707)
beesting / All
http://www.amex.com/quote.dll?page=quick&mode=stock&symbol=GOLD&symbol=HGMCY&symbol=GLG&symbol=ABX&symbol=PDG&symbol=NEM&symbol=HM&symbol=AU&symbol=&symbol=
beesting You took the words right out of my mouth. I had to go out and I left just after gold closed to the upside . Gee that sounds nice " Gold closed to the up side" I could get used to hearing that . But what happened to mining shares?

$hifty

Topaz (03/09/01; 15:30:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 49706)
Mr Gresham, Randy, Cavan man.
Mr G re Galearis,
Was all set to express those same thought's - you did it far more eloquently than I could, Bravo!
Randy,
That Cleaver clan - no flies on them when it comes to getting ahead of the curve - good one, heh-heh!
Cavan man,
I've heard tell that Comex delivery is pretty ordinary. Firstly the 100oz bars are a bit "iffy" ie NOT good for SPOT delivery - and second it can be quite costly. (hearsay, not practical experience though)
...also, if memory serves, you were expressing an interest in the Aussie/Gold price recently...well!
We have here the key in disclosing whether Gold is still at the heart of the global financial structure or (as we are continually led to believe) just a mere sideshow.
The Aussie bleeder (down) and US$pog (up) have combined to provide an A$ price spike to A$536/Oz o/nite.
This is deep in the red zone for Aussie hedged miners who have sold forward in $A.
What we are looking for is "relief" via a rebound in A$ (totally against current financial thinking) or a predicted dive further in A$ (even higher A$pog and margin call's on miners)
When a hedge is put on, FIRB approval is sought for same. It wouldn't surprise me if the FIRB has some form of tacit agreement with the counterparties something along these lines:- Yes, we'll sell you 10 odd years production from mine X...BUT! If you blokes lose control of the situation - (if gold goes above a pre-determined A$ price and jeapordises our miners ability to operate) - then we'll Nationalise.
The treasury have alluded to this frequently.

Most interesting times indeed...we watch together.


beesting (03/09/01; 15:17:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 49705)
Comments from an Amateur on Goldmining Shares.
Stranger, Nickel62, or anyone else please comment on todays Gold share action.

In an upday($5.00 POG) all the major Goldmining companies except unhedged Gold Fields Ltd.(GOLD) took a quick and sudden nosedive in share price in the last 15 minutes of trading on the U.S. Exchanges, extra heavy volume was evident "before" the big nosedive.
Barrick(ABX) was down all day but still nosedived in the last 15 minutes of trading.
AU
HM
NEM
PDG
ABX
and others!

Two guesses come to mind:
1. GATA's work may be bearing some fruit as the Gold mining "headging" business may be coming apart at the seams, major investigations into hedging activities could cause all hedgers share prices to drop simultaneously.

2. The Plunge Protection Team intervened on major Gold mining shares in a big way in the last 15 minutes of trading so the trading public wouldn't see what happened to POG today. The sudden drop at precisely the same time shows a coordinated effort and a move much to big for Goldmining Mutual funds to cause.

3. Other Reasons, Anybody?????

How come Gold Fields didn't get "Slammed?"

Thanks for Reading....beesting.

Galearis (03/09/01; 15:17:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 49704)
@ Mr. Gresham
Thank you for your words.
Compassion can never be ordered or stollen from those who have it to give.

Best regards,

G.

USAGOLD (03/09/01; 14:21:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 49703)
Randy, All. . .
MEXICO CITY, March 8 (Reuters) - U.S. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said
on Thursday the United States would let markets dictate oil prices,
signaling a move away from previous U.S. efforts to influence policy in the
OPEC producer cartel. "I believe the market should drive these things, and
that's the American position," said Abraham
-----------------------------

Comment: I think that it is beginning to dawn on a great number of people that there are some meaningful differences between the Bush and Clinton administrations in terms of their world views and their attitudes toward markets. The Bush world view will translate to economic policy, the gold markets and ALL markets. For the most part, it is "non-interventionist" and it would be good for investors to get a clear idea in their minds what that might mean. It will take a while but once the import of this "new dynamic" sinks in with the public, we are going to see major changes in the way markets are traded -- not to mention the fact that those who watch markets closely are already well-aware of what I'm talking about. The public for the most part hasn't caught on, but the financial professionals (and those who spend time here) know it. The "feel" is different and this past week has gone a long ways toward making that evident up and down the front line in the financial markets. The position stated by Mr. Abraham on oil is part and parcel of a world view. Thanks for getting that important piece of news posted for all to consider. While some will register their deep concern about such a policy, others will recognize a free market as the best solution to the oil problem.

Aside: It was mentioned to us today by someone in the know who follows technical analysis that the gold price is now at a place where some of the hedge funds will get a clear signal to cover, and in fact, go long. That could take things to the next level.

Randy (@ The Tower) (03/09/01; 14:00:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 49702)
Gold calendar
http://www.usagold.com/onlinestore/special.html
Next week marks the final 25 tonne gold auction by the Bank of England, as they then move forward having unexpectedly scaled back this pre-announced program to only 20 tonnes each for the final year.

March 30th marks the date at which the European Central Bank shall conduct its quarterly remarking of the Eurosystem gold assets to the prevailing market value of the day. "Gee, Wally, do you think the U.S. or IMF will ever do this too?"
"Gosh, I dunno, Beave. I kinda think the IMF has already started. Lotsa other folks have."
"Hey, that's really neat, Wally!"

And from Bridge News, we see that June marks the launch date for China's first gold exchange.

---Hong Kong, March 8 (BridgeNews) - No timetable has yet been set for the Establishment of a new company to operate China's first gold exchange, which the People's Bank of China (PBOC), the central bank, is aiming to launch in Shanghai in June, sources at Chinese firms that are likely to take a stake in the new company said Thursday. A PBOC-lead group is still studying details of the operations of the new gold exchange, they said.---

And today marks the day that you kick yourself for not buying gold last week. There's still time to lock in your order before the weekend...gold is still a bargain in the vicinity of 22 year lows. Give the fine folks at Centennial a call and put them to work for you. (Or, check out our limited online offer at the link above.) Remember, it is your purchase from Centennial that makes this website possible.

Mr Gresham (03/09/01; 13:56:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 49701)
Galearis (03/09/01; 11:15:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 49688)
You entrusted us with your painful personal experience, in order to provide beneficial discussion to all, and we responded with coldness or neutrality. This is a shameful omission, and I apologize. The forum comes up short sometimes; it is spotty on personal response; it is welcoming of input and threatening of rejection all at once. We cannot many times pay our best attention to those deserving of it here.

Please do not regret, and do not hold back; I believe I speak for many here, and probably the usual multiple of lurkers as well.

Your reply to Oro excelled. There is a "Best Argument" to be made by each "side". I love it when I see them side by side. Then I ask myself which one admits of a synthesis, for I want the best points of each side to be learned by the other, and perhaps incorporated.

In the absence of synthesis, people tend to go around throughout history slaughtering one another, and I'm not sure that's very effective toward proving any point at all.

Frustration will make people accept many sub-optimal proposals. (BTW, I have recently used FOA's long-term views on the Trail to model the practice of patience in some frustrating areas in my own life.)

But I have never had to deal with a loss such as yours, and as a parent I know it would change my life in its entirety. The few others I know who've had that loss, I listen to very carefully.



Randy (@ The Tower) (03/09/01; 13:23:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 49700)
Any gold held in unallocated accounts which are open to leasing...kiss it goodbye
It might look like real gold ownership on paper when you get your quarterly statements, but brother, you're likely never going to see a spec of it as metal.

In such accounts you essentially have made an unsecured loan of your own metal to a second-party business engaged in banking operations designed to lend it (to third-parties) in the hopes that it comes back with interest.

Do you know your history? Banks that lend gold are prone to bankruptcy when their borrowers cannot make the expected repayments of the metal in order to recompense the original depositors. If you are not among the early to withdraw your metal funds from the small stock available, then you lose everything when the business folds....subject perhaps to some lengthly workout settlement in the courts.

Currently, the borrowing interest rate for gold metal has climbed above the borrowing rate for paper/digital dollar funds. Centennial informs me that a top gold trader confirmed that at one point during the past day the overnight rate for borrowing gold spiked to 16% (annualized), with market rumors swirling about the nature of the circumstances and of the particular entity being desperately pinched to meet its demand requirements for gold.

ANYone can have a ledger entry. Have you got gold? (Track down your wealth and ask for delivery or transfer to an allocated or otherwise unleased account.)

Mr Gresham (03/09/01; 13:19:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 49699)
Randy
"Peter Fisher has been busy conducting active on-the-job training for his replacement as head of the Open MArket Desk! "

Just bringing the sub up to the surface, eh? "No, NO! Not the RED one! That's the money supply button!"

Cavan Man (03/09/01; 13:10:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 49698)
COMEX Credibility
Recent conversations with COMEX trader (Shearson house):

"I heard recently that COMEX had to deliver about a half million ounces but only had roughly 90,000 in their inventory. Isn't that a big problem"?

Trader: "No. Very few people expect to take delivery".

"But, what if they did attempt to take delivery?"

Trader: "It's not (delivery) going to happen."

This was an actual conversation held as recently as last week.

Horatio (03/09/01; 12:58:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 49697)
Wheres the gold Rush?
The public has cried Wolf so many times ,now when gold rises no one believes its for real,they have all become sceptical .You hear comments like "its not real"."its just temporary" and on and on.It takes courage to get rich.It takes equal amounts of knowledge,capital and courage.Whats seems to be lacking is the courage,the public are just a bunch of wimps whineing and whining.Nobody is going to ring a bell to tell the public when to get in.It takes COURAGE.

Old Yeller (03/09/01; 12:56:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 49696)
Definition of negative correlation.
http://investdb.theglobeandmail.com/invest/investSQL/gx.show_chart?pl_comp_id=0&pl_errmsg=&pl_primary_listing=comp-i&iaction=Chart&pl_period=6D&pl_chart_type=+&pl_additional_listing=nem-n&pl_sh_movement=50&pl_long_movement=0

Look out,we're out of the golden trenches.Anybody seen the hammerman.

It's a beautiful day here;I think I'll go outside and trim the hedges!

nickel62 (03/09/01; 12:55:37MT - usagold.com msg#: 49695)
Can somebody help me out? I thought gold always gave back it's advances before the end of the New York trading?
Did something go wrong or something? I don't think I have ever seen it actually go up with out a full blown panic going on. Or am I missing something in the current situation?

RossL (03/09/01; 12:35:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 49694)
Technical indicators

I just checked on the discussion over at the DROOY forum and I see that Don L. is expecting the rally to be squashed. It does appear that last weeks spike in lease rates was followed by the gold hitting the market and the futures prices being sold down. I also respect Don L. for his efforts in quantifying just how the large players move the futures and options markets. It seems to me that he is expecting the big movers to continue on this way indefinitely.
However, and I haven't looked at his spreadsheet, but he doesn't make any remarks about counter-party risk in his calculation. This seems to be the standard operating procedure of futures traders. There is no expectation that a big trading house or the COMEX itself will default, and the traders all expect to get good fills despite what happened right after the Washington Agreement was announced. How quickly we forget about Ashanti and TOCOM.


White Hills (03/09/01; 12:21:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 49693)
Gold Trail Silence
The silence from the Gold Trail makes me wonder if perhaps things are ready to POP!! Without a doubt FOA has an insiders perspective and ANOTHER is surely in the know. I feel what is taking place was planned long ago and is proceeding along a predictable path. Never mind that the trail isn"t always straight if you keep in mind the objective, the replacement of the USA$ by the Euro as the reserve currency of the world and the return of GOLD as the wealth of nations, then you are better able to see through to the end of the Trail. I look forward to our next hike on the Gold Trail, it should a great one. White Hills

Randy (@ The Tower) (03/09/01; 12:12:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 49692)
THIS is today's significant news: HEADLINE-- U.S. Eases Pressure on OPEC Over Oil Price
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010309/n08182747.html
Splendid! (Gold follows, people! Get you some!!)

Excerpt:
MEXICO CITY, March 8 (Reuters) - U.S. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said on Thursday the United States would let markets dictate oil prices, signaling a move away from previous U.S. efforts to influence policy in the OPEC producer cartel.
"I believe the market should drive these things, and that's the American position," said Abraham, who was in Mexico City for a conference of energy ministers from the Americas.
+
Abraham's comments signal an abrupt departure from the high-profile efforts of his predecessor, Bill Richardson to persuade OPEC producers to relax world supply in the interests of consuming nations' economic growth.

"Our position is not to pick a price...our position is to encourage markets to be allowed to work," Abraham said.


If you have been following these unfolding macroeconomic events at the forum over time, you know that the runner is rounding third and heading for home....

Galearis (03/09/01; 12:02:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 49691)
@RossL
Lease rate fiascos for those who deserve no better...
This rally may have the legs to blow. I'm not putting a currency bet down on it (let alone a gold one), but the timing is not to the advantage of the market zappers. We are a wee bit too close to the next BOE auction, and although we have seen them knock down a rally like this in a few days, POG is (as near as one can tell) playing very close to the $270/$271 point, which is, as you know, a significant one. I pass on too, for our fondest hopes, an email message from Rhody to me this morning who also feels that "this might be it."

The fundamentals are right for it certainly.

We can

but

hope.

G.



schippi (03/09/01; 11:59:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 49690)
Gold Lease Rate Chart Error
http://www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html
This Gold Lease Rate Chart is incorrect.

The correct KITCO Lease Chart is at :
http://www.kitco.com/lease.chart.html



Randy (@ The Tower) (03/09/01; 11:56:46MT - usagold.com msg#: 49689)
When growing supply causes your currency's value to shrink, you want your wealth stored in another form of savings
This thought just occured to me. Maybe the reason the Federal Reserve has been so active lately in adding reserves through its open market operations is that outgoing System Account Manager Peter Fisher has been busy conducting active on-the-job training for his replacement as head of the Open MArket Desk! <Ha! HA!>

As many of you will recall, Mr.Fisher has been singled out as President Bush's choice for nomination to fill the role of Undersecretary of the Treasury Department for Domestic Finance.

Yesterday the Fed added another $2.005 billion to the nation's banking reserves through 28-day repurchase agreements, followed by a polishing operation adding another $5.25 billion via overnight repos.

Today, even though the federal funds market was trading 1/16th percent below the FOMC target price, the Fed to part in yet another add operation, providing $3.745 billion to banking reserves through over-the-weekend repurchase agreements.

What does this continue to tell us? That pursuit of the interest rate target policy established by the Federal Open Market Committe is not the driving force here, but rather, it is the unstated goal to provide ample liquidity to the banking system. You haven't seen "nothing" yet!

"We shall have the hyperinflation."

got gold?

Galearis (03/09/01; 11:15:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 49688)
@ Randy@, ORO, Mr. Gresham
liberals
Hello ORO, Randy@ and Mr. Gresham
Yesterday was a very interesting, no stimulating day for me on USAGOLD, and I thank all the people of the forum for their comments.

ORO:

It is not common for someone to place such personal and intimate personal history on a forum, and (now) to a great extent I regret that I did. I am, of course referencing the personal history of my son's medical problems and the social welfare responses to it: it showed particularly bad foresight in that it would prompt some discussion. And did. This is a period in my life that was horrendously painful, but illuminating about how various communities, government and family, society in general if you will, deals with the unusual. It was an illumination for me that it revealed a commonality of sorts in peoples responses to these types of situations and is nevertheless a useful one for discussion. I do not enjoy dwelling on this topic, but feel that I should make a few points in all this.

The first is that government as an institution is made up of individuals that form a community. In many ways it is structured like a business in its interrelationships with various departments. This is simplistic yes, and likely to appear laughably naive for many on the forum who have already made up their minds in this area, but "ideologically" as verifiable as any other view. In that institutions cannot really have "heart" as an individual can, they are too machine-like to realize anything but an approximation to this, they are still entities composed of individuals that DO have feelings of empathy, compassion, as well as the motivations of less laudable forms. Many of these individuals have sincere motivations to help based only on laudable intent. I have been there and worked with these people, and there is no cynicism. These individuals in government set up their fiefdoms and I feel most have even conspired to achieve their aims because they believe they are doing public good AND for political reasons. They "play" the game, yes? A cynical government may have ministers that would have to be convinced of the POLITICAL advantage of adapting these policies, but the impetus should not EVER be said to spring ONLY from political benefit to the regime. At least in Canada. I have never seen much evidence (until recently here in Ontario) to the contrary. To accept that this is NOT true would be the same as assuming that teachers go into teaching because it pays better, and that the government only supports public education so that it can brain-wash the underclasses. (We do not teach civics classes [yet] in Ontario). (In Ontario at least, most high school teachers who would be sophisticated enough to teach this subject, would NEVER be used as a propaganda tool. Anyone on the forum who has an Ontario perspective would know why I can safely say this.) But I am getting in front of my topic (if not beside my topic) a little here and will go back and tell you what people are really like in my world view as learned from my socialistic support during my family's time of need.

We never announced our son's problem to the world. This would have created an unhealthy social environment – the relationships with his peers would have been abnormal. Our family was not structured as were others, and I had to be the care-giver. For years (especially the last really bad ones) were complicated vis-à-vis the community responses to our "odd" situation. As a result of this lack of understanding, not only was our peace of mind non-existent due to the medical problems, the social area in the community was deteriorating as well. For example I used to get harassing/threatening phone calls from elements (young fascist types) that were not pleasant either. (So I trust readers will not assume I have my head in the sand in understanding the scope of human misbehaviors.) This all changed when our son finally died and the truth came out – then the community rallied behind us – when it really did not matter. The point here is that we as a family did not trumpet out demise to the world and neither did the government. There was no political hay made on our situation; we would have been outraged. The government institution also realized that this would have been the case for a percentage of the population in our situation and respected it. This I put down to a "bureaucratic care-giver" impulse that was also institutionalized.

Furthermore, the government NEVER went on a publicity campaign trumpeting their contributions of support for X disease in order to garner a sympathy vote. One percent of the population that was involved in X disease would not have been worth the effort. The selfish faction (right wing) of the electorate would not have been won over. Outside of justifying in a general way funds going to our government sponsored medicare system, there was little up side for our government. In Canada, these government support systems are QUIETLY put into place with Little or NO fanfare beyond a list. NO commercials.

Of course things have changed in Ontario and our new right wing government (with I might add more than a few Libertarian ideals revealed in their policies) have "restructured" much of this out. I have watched changes made now, that would have killed our son, had they been in place then. The government's stance now on this: "tough, but you drew an unlucky hand". Of course they too, are correct. Just their policy reactions to it significanly differ.

And now for a surprising statement and for this purpose I will repost OROs points in order, and comment again at the end. He said:
****************
3. People at large do not benefit from government, not even the supposed beneficiaries, such as Glearis thinks his child to be. Government (as an organization of people) uses such cases as Public Relations fodder to claim a moral character to their actions and thus lower resistance among people at large to their being taxed. What is not said, is that in order to provide a child such as Glearis’ with this benefit, it has done and caused the following:
a. It took the resources (funds) from someone else, thus lowering their purchasing power and their ability to take care of their own children.
b. Therefore, it had reduced purchasing power that could have been used to buy the services of Glearis and his well wishers, and has reduced their income in this way.
c. They have occupied people in the function of determining and extracting the tax, and have occupied people in determining whether to help Glearis’ child and how. All of these people did not help Glearis’ child at all.
d. Since the government functionaries produced nothing in their venture to have someone provide Glearis’ child with assistance, Glearis and all of us have lost these people's productive output, thus we have had to pay more for the same goods and services. The value of these people to Glearis was negative.
e. The same process of collecting and distributing funds to pay the providers of care to Glearis’ child, the government has taken income away from the care givers and from Glearis in order for government to bee seen as serving other deserving people such as Glearis. This has raised the cost of the service Glearis’ child received and decreased further the income of Glearis and his charitable well wishers.
f. By government "taking care" of the problem, the motive for Glearis and his charitable friends and strangers to help has been eliminated, as was much of the pool of resources available to them with which to do so.
g. By making the decisions as to what treatments and research to fund regarding the problem facing Glearis’ child, government has eliminated the motive for Glearis and people facing similar problems to make judgments as to where to allocate resources. Furthermore, the experts that government had used in order to make these decisions have become too expensive for Glearis to afford, and have been occupied in explaining to government officials the hows and whys of their area of expertise.
h. The government decision makers, having no direct interest in the actual practical outcome to Glearis’ child and those to follow, will have little motive to make the most effective decisions as to where to allocate funds for research, and to evaluate treatments other than those currently practiced (this constitutes effort).

Glearis, your child and others to follow will have suffered a lower level of service, less effective treatment, and have lesser prospects for cure or prevention because of the involvement of government in the business of "care". Furthermore, Government had eliminated resources from Glearis and everybody else, that could have been used in these efforts, and has raised the costs of Glearis living. Government has made the child's problem into a threat to everybody's well being, instead of a cause for strangers to join together in charity.

To repeat what I have stated before, every 1 unit of benefit derived from government costs 4-5 units (the 1 provided and the 4 destroyed by the process) to the whole of the people. Could Glearis and his well wishers afforded this care for the child if government were not providing for it and similar services? If one understands the reality of it, one sees that had Glearis’ child been provided for by Glearis and well wishers, and the same done for all government services, then Glearis income would most probably have been up 2.5 fold in purchasing power, as would have been that of his well wishers.
****************************
If one thinks about these points very carefully, one can see the cold, clear logic of these words. Really, ORO, you talk about essentially a watering down of resources that could be spent better in other areas – in more efficient areas by the private sector. I agree in many – well, some ways. That IS the surprise, yes? But the watering down and efficiency is a given when one spreads the benefits to all, including those that cannot afford to pay. So I don't see the benefits to my child as particularly illusionary – in those pre-credit card days of our family – and society until recently in Ontario has shown little of the "why should I pay anything to keep someone elses kid alive" attitude. But this too is changing. Here in Canada, we have a creeping two-tiered system coming in – as a response to rising costs to support public medicare (non-profit, by the way). Government size is declining – along with the social safety net, which is wasteful anyway – as you say. The corporate sector is increasingly wanting its share of our wasteful system so they can deliver more for (much) more instead of less for less. If one looks at it another way, there is a conflict of interest implied. So the corporate sector IS corrupting our government too. Right again.

That is the bottom line for me, and as far as your argument goes (and I assume you are very acquainted with the Canadian model), you are probably superficially correct – as long as you can pick and choose the criteria for the judgement. If one turns the blind eye to the SOCIAL costs, for example – that inevitably turns up again on someone elses books (if not someone elses hospital bill). There are many ways to waste productivity. From the environmental cost book (which is not looked at at all in almost everyone's model) a tube of tooth paste really costs $5000. In a hundred years, not many will be brushing teeth that often – so the waste factor does not matter. (What IS the market value of losing 3,000 species a year through extinctions?) So these COSTS are not really costs, just loses that turn up OFF the books. So one can safely say that much of the WHOLE world is completely off the map in peoples minds at this forum simply because the point of view is focused (facing away) – and perhaps not broad enough to even see how much of the rest fits together to make the whole. That is ideology working (or lack thereof) too. Is this a fair statement?

If the corporate agenda is applied to basic research, as an example – and let us remove ourselves for the moment from the medical realm of things – the profit only motive is fully applied to criteria. (Our Canadian) governments do not shovel funds into research just to pay off corporate favours – there is research done in areas that may have little foreseeable profit for corporations down the road. Corporations would have little interest in supporting philosophy courses, for example, in universities – or the mating habits of shrimp. So government involvement in funding SOME areas are vital from the perspective of human knowledge and education which for (in some cases) only results in abstract returns (no pun). (Again the Ontario Government is withdrawing support from these "useless" course areas of education.) This too is a waste on the books, yes? We would and are losing much of this as the universities (in Canada too) are embracing the corporate model for doing business. Another example, our esteemed Provincial government has just deleted geology courses from the high school curriculum. So our once superior, world-class public system has been degraded a bit more – for political reasons. The systemic education trend evolving is toward reseach only for the corporate agenda. This is tyranny of knowledge and in some ways is the worst of all tyrannies. It keeps the point of views focused in only certain directions. Generalization: left wing governments without the corporate agenda do more pure science research. In Canada the corporations do not take the same active role in research as they do in the US. There is less research, but there is much less questionable research too.

I don't hate governments or feel they are morally wrong. Morality is based on actions not ideas. People can be morally wrong – and unfortunately some or a lot turn up in governments. Weakening governments just turns them loose on the rest of us in more an urestrained way. Corrupt governments do the same thing. At least those good people in government can perhaps work against those bad ones. (That is another role of regulation - why would one assume that all are self-serving?) However,it does not matter if regulations or institutions are corrupted in the long run; this just creates imbalances (in democracies) that create instability and chaos down the road which in turn addresses the problem anyway - much like a manipulated gold market asserts its fundamentals eventually. The process may take a lifetime or two, that is all. Given this it would be VERY inadvisable to do away with government in order to "clean things up". One only has to keep trying for honest government. Governnent like democracy is both process and institution and it is always a dynamic process. We are stuck with world that needs governments – (often ) self-serving (often) corrupt, but occasionally fair, and always necessary. Even the really bad ones. (The latter is why Saddam is still there.)

However, my bottom line in this by now meandering discussion is perhaps a little skewed by self-interest. A private medicare system would have destroyed my family and killed my son very early on – simply because as a newly poor family starting out with nothing, our son would not have got ANY treatment. That too is a saving to the system yes? (Our new Ontario government knows all about this particular saving.) Our family survived as a unit, however, and I can now function in a way most (?) would consider within the norm. I also have no doubt that a family in similar situation in many parts of the US, and MOST of the rest of the world would not have. THAT is the point for me (and for many unafflicted families in this country too). Remember too that the electorate had free will in supporting public medicare. They thought it worth the sacrifice to their productivity. They expressed their humanity in this way – they were not coerced by politicians- they voted for it in a free election. As a result you imply it to be watered down, inefficient, perhaps, but at least it is available to all. (Still.)

For every gain there is a loss; for every loss there is a gain.

I may be considered a heretic, or someone who "just don't get it" by many here who have invested (if I can use that word) so much into a (to me)narrow focused world view, but I too have been around. I have just spent a lot of time in parts unfamiliar to this forum. I am honest and can admit to my failings in many of the topics covered here. But I do understand your views and your dollarized funding model that is the basis for it, but I also feel that it is too narrow in some respects, and values attributed to some of the pieces in it are discounted.

Nevertheless, I admire much of what you say and know that your contributions to this forum are vastly more significant than mine. So, who am I to say?

My apologies to Mr. Gresham and Randy@ for seemingly ignoring the postings to me yesterday (and the bandwidth waste). Perhaps much of what I have said can be taken for a response to you – your words are certainly circling around in my mind in all this. But this a Canadian perspective and one held by many (but heard by few on this forum), and I do not harbour any particular hopes that it will be respected –or even completely understood based on my outpourings above. But I did respond and for me it was an unpleasant topic to exercise. And of course my words don't really matter in the big picture either or even suffice most of the time to deliver communication. Life has taught that much at least.

It's a complicated world - especially with the tug and pull of so many people with so many different goals. In the end, both of us, ORO and I, are probably more or less right. Where would politics be without this grist for the mill on which to work.

That's the lovely bit about politics: every side is right and every side is wrong. It's just how one weights the things of measure.

Regards,

G.

P.S. That's Galearis with the 'a'. A species of temperate terrestrial orchid, Galearis spectabilis.


Mr Gresham (03/09/01; 11:14:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 49687)
NY Minute
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html
That's why they call it that. "Sell you out in a..." PPT is finding/will find out. Now working for someone else? One big market, think of NY as. Us little kids, playing on the swings at a Maf backyard party?

Doesn't that NY fault line run somewhere near the Fed basement? Wouldn't THAT be a treasure hunt for our kids to go on someday?

goldfan (03/09/01; 11:07:56MT - usagold.com msg#: 49686)
@Galearis, Rhody -Lease rates?
Recent posts and links have indicated that

gold lease rate = libor - gofo.

Since as I understand it, libor is the interbank rate and is set with no reference at all to gold ( at least on the surface) then the bank lending rate for gold, gofo, is the only one of these three rates that is directly proportional to the bankers perceived risk in lending out their gold. If it increases, because the risk has increased, this means the lease rate decreases. ie. lease rates are inversely proportional to perceived risk. How can this be? What am I missing here?

Sure would appreciate your comments

Goldfan

RossL (03/09/01; 10:58:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 49685)
Lease rates
http://www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html

It looks like the Kitco chart has been corrected.
One month: 6.8570 %


nickel62 (03/09/01; 10:11:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 49684)
Just in case you wondered if manipulation of the currency markets thru suppressing gold was worth it?
Weill Pushes Fearsome Five Aside
Commentary. Graef Crystal is a columnist for Bloomberg News. The opinions expressed are his own.


By Graef Crystal

Las Vegas, March 9 (Bloomberg) -- Ten days ago, I lambasted five chief executives of large, publicly traded Wall Street firms for earning a total of $154 million in 2000.

Little did I know that three days later, I would discover that Citigroup Inc.'s Sanford Weill earned more than $215 million by my calculation. That's 40 percent more than all the members of the ``Fearsome Five'' pay list combined.

Or that Robert Rubin, Weill's consigliere, earned $54.5 million -- a figure 47 percent higher than the $37 million going to Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co.'s Philip Purcell, who topped the earlier list.

It's not that Weill, in particular, doesn't deserve a lot of money. His performance has been nothing short of spectacular. For the 10 years ended last December, the share-price appreciation of Citigroup and the predecessor companies that he ran exceeded all but 4 percent of the members of the Standard & Poor's 500 Index.

Moreover, in analyzing nine time windows of total return I discovered that his companies' shares always beat the S&P 500 by more than two times. The windows stretched from two to 10 years and ended last Dec. 31. During the two-year period, Citigroup exceeded the index by 9.2 times.

Above $1 Billion

At the same time, Weill has given munificent amounts to charity. You almost can't turn a corner in Manhattan without encountering his name on a concert hall or a medical center or some other worthwhile building.

That's exemplary, but it would have been a bit more accurate to name all those monuments after both Weill and the shareholders of Citigroup and its predecessors. After all, it was the holders that involuntarily gave him money to hand over to charity.

Besides, is anyone worth what Weill's boards have paid him? During the past 10 years, he has earned more than $1 billion in salary, bonus, free-share awards, stock-option gains and other compensation. The average: $100.6 million per year.

In 2000 alone, he drew a salary of $1 million, received a bonus of $18.5 million, was awarded free shares valued at $8.7 million, and made $196.2 million by exercising options.

All that adds up to $224.4 million, or a bit more than the $215 million figure cited earlier. The latter number strips out gains from exercising options and inserts the estimated present value of option grants made last year.

Matter of Timing

Weill received 19 grants during 2000. According to Citigroup, the grants had a total present value of $99.2 million at the time they were made. The company came up with that figure by using, in my opinion, totally lowball valuation assumptions.

Citigroup apparently assumed that Weill will exercise his options after just 23 percent of the term had passed, on average. That estimate is based on reverse engineering of the Black-Scholes pricing model, which the New York-based company used to calculate the options' value.

The company says in its proxy statement that the estimate is based on Weill's history of option exercises. While that no doubt is true, one reason he exercises so early is that his companies' share-price appreciation has been so far above normal. Let that appreciation become more normal, or even sub-normal, and Weill will start waiting for much longer before exercising.

In my own valuation, I assumed he would exercise last year's 19 option grants after an average of 70 percent of their term has elapsed. That raised their present value to $186.8 million, and put Weill's total pay for 2000 at $215.4 million.

Rubin's Riches

Another reason Weill tends to exercise early is that his company gives him a new option grant every time he exercises an earlier grant.

During 2000, Weill bought 20.1 million shares by exercising options. And yet after all that, he ended the year with options on 12.1 million additional shares, up from 10.5 million when the year started. Friends, we haven't seen numbers like that since the miracle of the loaves and fishes.

Rubin, Citigroup's executive committee chairman, is another recipient of the company's generosity. His pay package was buoyed by a $10.3 million bonus, $5 million of free shares and an option which I estimated had a present value of $38 million.

For not being a CEO, he is doing pretty well. Last year, the former co-chairman of Goldman, Sachs & Co., earned 2.4 times as much as Henry Paulson, who now runs the firm and Goldman Sachs Group Inc., its parent. Less work, more pay. No one ever said Rubin was other than brilliant.

Tipping the Scale

As for Weill, he can't have that many years left to dip into Citigroup's treasury. After all, he turns 68 a week from now, on March 16.

Considering how much of the company's money has come his way over the years, that's good news for shareholders. For executives everywhere, though, it's bad news.

When Weill's pay package is removed from databases compiled by compensation consultants, the average CEO's pay in America may decrease by something like $1 million a year.

With this in mind, CEOs around the country will trade in their bespoke Savile Row suits for sackcloth and ashes on his retirement day. The ``Fearsome Five'' may be among the first to make this clothing change.


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Mr Gresham (03/09/01; 10:08:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 49683)
LBMA seems correct, wouldn't you think?
http://www.fiendbear.com/deatheq.htm
But the NY figure comes out after LBMA's, right? so maybe someone dug in their basement for some pyrite?

In LBMA's, it's the LIBOR MINUS GOFO column.

Link is to an excerpting of the legendary "Death of Equities" article from Business Week, 1979. Amazing to see the crystallization of thought at a turning point. (Seems like the Dark Ages from here -- did they really speak the same English language back then, in 1979?)

Cavan Man (03/09/01; 10:01:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 49682)
Gold is primordial, organic.
Feels good. Fence sitters: Just do it.

Cavan Man (03/09/01; 09:58:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 49681)
POG
Have a feeling this rally has good legs. The movement is slow yet steadily up; as if the noose was being slowly drawn.

Cavan Man (03/09/01; 09:55:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 49680)
Gresham
Which is correct; LBMA or Kitco charts?

Cavan Man (03/09/01; 09:53:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 49679)
Knallgold/Gresham
How to read those columns? Thanks.

Mr Gresham (03/09/01; 09:29:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 49678)
All
http://www.kitco.com/market/LFrate.html
Thanks Knallgold, I was looking at that too, and the NY rate seems to have dropped -- Kitco's error or what?

Is the gold there? The manipulation scheme seems to have gone on at a desperate pace these past 5 years, with (officially-backed?) shorts risking their solvency to effect it, as if it was very much needed to keep people from looking "behind the store window."

That manipulation would also be explained by having a profitable fiat currency on the brink, and your gold is your Plan B to stay in the post-fiat world trading race.

What a masterstroke to pull off a total facade of the Dollar these past decades, if there was no (or very little) gold in the vaults.

(Kind of explains the need to keep the mega-military around post-USSR? Us? No, we wouldn't....)

If OPG (other people's gold) was kept in US under some "agreement they couldn't refuse" all this time...

That joke about the Golden Rule all these years...

Chris Powell (03/09/01; 09:19:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 49677)
Status report on GATA/Howe lawsuit
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gata/message/705
Here's what's happening in the case in
U.S. District Court in Boston.

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

gata-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (03/09/01; 09:00:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 49676)
Carl H
If it really is a change in US gold reserves, perhaps they're not worried about being able to easily replace it, at a fiat price of their choice ($42/oz)? CONFISCATION.

Knallgold (03/09/01; 08:55:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 49675)
lease rates
http://www.lbma.org.uk/2001gofo.htm
1 M 3 M 6 M 12 M

6.2775% 4.2300% 3.1300% 2.6913%



elevator guy (03/09/01; 08:54:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 49674)
What will happen next?
I think they will allow gold to rise a little bit, to suck in long papaer players, because they must keep this game going.

After exchanging cash for paper, they will pull the rug again, and the POG will tumble.

This will not change unil the FED loses control of its beloved FRN to competition from the Euro.

But then, there is a always the possibility that TPTB will use the worlds greatest military technology to start or provoke a war, which then can be used to perpetuate the status quo. They would probably rather do this, then relinquish control of the worlds number one reserve cuurency.

Watch for it.

Carl H (03/09/01; 08:47:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 49673)
Canuck
Your post 49663 is very interesting!

I am no expert, but the designation change from "Gold Bullion Reserve" to "Custodial Gold" sure sounds like a change of ownership to me.

I thought that sales or leases of US gold reserves required an act of Congress. Does anyone know for certain?

In case anyone is interested, the 57MOz is about 1783 tons.


SHIFTY (03/09/01; 08:17:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 49672)
ji
Thanks for the link ji. I sent it to myself to read later.
Things are looking interesting again today!

Go GOLD
Go GATA

$hifty

Pandagold (03/09/01; 07:48:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 49671)
A correction

As most will realise, my reference to China and its currency should have said:- 'devalue' not revalue. as the latter is more associated with increase rather than mere change.

Pandagold (03/09/01; 07:42:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 49670)
A re post

Yes, I posted this yesterday, but from one or two posts since, and because it looks like another one of those days,
I feel it is relavent to say it again. I know many do not have the time to look too far back; If it annoys anyone, I really do apologise (truly)

The tide is about to turn

I said 'about'. The tide does not go straight out. In fact when it's going out, for a while it can look as though it is still coming in.

You have to look closely. And, when you have local knowledge of the tides, because it is regulated by nature, and not man, you know it is going out.

The financial tides are not regulated by nature, so you have to have more care,and be more perceptive. But they do ebb and flow.

There will still be effort by the manipulators to lead you on, and confuse you. There will be lots of conflicting rhetoric and false signals that hold you back and keep you hesitating.

No one, except an elite few (the manipulators)can hope to buy at the bottom. So, if you buy now, you may see the market move a little against you, but don't despair. That has to be.

When the market does make its big move, I guarantee, it will catch most people napping and if you are out, you will rue the day. What is coming is a chance in a lifetime.

Remember, many things are coming together. One BIG event that is not being trumpeted by the media is that a date has now been set for the opening of the gold market in China - JUNE. Gold is purchased by nations moving into wealth. China gets wealthier by the day.

It was China that saved Asia from complete collapse when Soros did the dirty by not revaluing her currency. No the media did not trumpet that either. But the Asian people know it. It is China that will revitalise Asia, and Asia loves gold - pure gold.

Many Chinese entrepreneurs are investing in many gold projects, and businesses. The Chinese are shrewd businessmen
don't underestimate them.

I say again, when the gold market does make its big move it will catch most people napping'. These little flurries help to deceive the unwary, and create a rhythm like the swaying head of a snake before it strikes.





WW Oracle (03/09/01; 07:35:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 49669)
See gold hop, see gold jump!
Spreads increasing! Now $0.70, normally $0.50.

Pandagold (03/09/01; 07:24:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 49668)
Turkey hunter

All of my questions in that last post were rhetorical. My advice for what it is worth is - don't try to puzzle these things out. In mining parlance, there is no pay dirt in the answers.

It's ALL, and I mean ALL, a 'grande illusion'. I learned the lesson taught by Canute, which I have referred to many times - don't try and change that which you cannot. That is not defeatism, it is realism.

You could have spent the last two weeks worrying about the manipulation or gloom scenario, and you would have missed out on making money in the market.

Accept, and go with the flow. Respect the elements, get a feel for the tides, keep a look out for icebergs and know where YOU are going. Just remember "When a man does not know which harbour he is making for, no wind is the right wind" (Seneca)

Good sailing



Henri (03/09/01; 06:39:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 49667)
Perplexed Msg 49658
Thanks for the hive allegory. I think there is a message there as well. Survival...get you some. :-)



turkey hunter (03/09/01; 06:28:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 49666)
@Pandagold
Howdy. I never did quite see why a nation would want to keep their gold in another nation. Seems like to me they could use it against you if one didn't dance to their tune. The only way to get it back would be to use force. A small nation would be out of luck and gold.

Usul (03/09/01; 05:34:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 49665)
Just the facts, please!
Terms and designations are important to bureaucrats. These things are their bread-and-butter. It would be unusual if an official document was not drawn up without nit-picking attention to the formulation of terms and designations.

If you saw the movie "Dragnet" with Dan Aykroyd as Joe Friday (nephew of the original Detective Sgt. Joe Friday, and like his uncle, a blue-suited, by-the-rules cop) you may remember the significance of the "change in designation" of the virgin Connie Swail (played by Alexandra Paul) in the last scene. ;)

So... just what have they done to the people's gold?


ji (03/09/01; 05:07:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 49664)
Shifty, thanks for the link - check this one out
http://www.nite.org/docs/ruml.htm
This article was first published in the January, 1946 issue of a periodical named 'American Affairs'.


TAXES FOR REVENUE ARE OBSOLETE
-by Beardsley Ruml, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
Mr. Ruml read this paper before the American Bar Association during the last year of the war [World War II]. It attracted then less attention than it deserved and is even more timely now, with the tax structure undergoing change for peacetime. His thesis is that given (1) control of a central banking system and (2) an inconvertible currency, a sovereign national government is finally free of money worries and need no longer levy taxes for the purpose of providing itself with revenue. All taxation, therefore, should be regarded from the point of view of social and economic consequences. The paragraph that embodies this idea will be found italicized in the text. Mr. Ruml does not say precisely how in that case the government would pay its own bills. One may assume that it would either shave its expenses out of the proceeds of taxes levied for social and economic ends or print the money it needs. The point may be academic. The latter end of his paper is devoted to an argument against taxing corporation profits. --- Editor.


Canuck (03/09/01; 04:54:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 49663)
Question
Can someone please explain this to me......TIA.

From g-e:

MIDAS Updates
(uponroof) Mar 08, 21:54

One thing for sure. The Treasury knows that GATA will be all over them until gold trades freely again. From Howe Discovery Team member, Michael Bolser:

Ms. Shirley Moore
US Treasury Department

Ms. Moore:

I have noticed that the Treasury Department has changed the designation of some inventoried gold at the US Mint in West Point, N.Y. from "Gold Bullion Reserve" to "Custodial Gold" as linked below:

The August 2000 Status Report on US Treasury Owned Gold showing designation of "Gold Bullion Reserve" at West Point , N.Y. http://207.87.26.43/gold/00-08.html

The September Status Report of the US Treasury Owned Gold showing a change in designation from "gold bullion reserve" to "custodial gold" at the U.S. Mint West Point, N.Y. http://207.87.26.43/gold/00-09.html

Could you please explain what this formal change in designation means with respect to the ownership status of the gold in question at West Point? Why has the ownership of 57, 067,331 Troy ounces of gold (Jan 31, 2001) undergone what clearly appears to be a change in ownership from the US to some other entity with the US now as "custodian"? If the apparent change is a real change who authorized it? And could you also formally define the following terms; Gold Bullion Reserve, PEF Gold and Gold Bullion.

Sincerely,

Michael Bolser





Pandagold (03/09/01; 04:49:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 49662)
Turkey Hunter and all interested

THE GOLD VAULT of the FR in NY


Watched a bit of an old movie yesterday,"Son of Paleface" Bob Hope; as I have a small TV at the side of my computer.

Yup, you've all seen it. Remember how, 'Son of Paleface', Bob, keeps the vultures at bay by leading them to believe his 'ole daddy' had left him lots of gold in that (empty) chest.

When he had seen it was empty he had put some loose change in it and broke up an old pocket watch so that the chest rattled.

How do we know how much gold is in the treasury vaults or Fort Knox? Who says it is there? Who checks it, (not just the top layer). If there is much there, who does it really belong to? How do you know? Does any really need to be there, just so long as people believe it is.

"It is not what is, but what people believe, that matters." (PG)

While you are thinking, I will offer the following quotes:

"I wonder if we would continue the noble lie that would itself carry conviction to our whole community" Plato, The Republik

" The circulation of confidence is better than the circulation of money"
J Madison (1751-1826)

And this little bit of trivia: The gold reserve of the US Treasury was saved in 1895 when Morgan and the Rothschilds loaned $65million worth of gold to the US Governement
(peanuts today, but this was 1895). As I said, I wonder who owns it today - whatever is there.

Mr Gresham (3/9/2001; 0:18:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 49661)
Oro
Some fine and stimulating late night reads from you, as I needed a wakeup before getting back to fending off IRS from my clients' wallets -- that is my job satisfaction, what little may be found in an insane paper chase.

Thanks to you, I cannot now think of government in general without picturing those castles in Europe and the robbers who "set up housekeeping" where they found controllable subjects.

As we here choose to occasionally cast ourselves in the sentimental role of a respectful, helpful, and gentle band of knights on our own Grail Quest, it is good to think of the other side of that Myth of Chivalry.

At least today, we can choose to embody whichever set of values our Conscience dictates, and to respond to the voice of Conscience when it speaks through another. Thank you.

Sierra Madre (03/09/01; 00:01:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 49660)
Horatio...about Japan's (rumored?) decision to knock two zeros off Yen

Horatio, the move to knock two zeros off the Yen would have absolutely no economic effect.

A similar move was made by Mexico in 1992(?)when the government decided to knock THREE zeros off the peso. So when we were at about $3000 pesos to $1 U.S., we went overnight to $3 ("new")pesos to $1 U.S. It made the peso look better, that's all. (We are now down to about $9.70 "new" pesos to $1 U.S., actually $9,700 old pesos to the Dollar.)

All prices simply dropped three zeros, everything went smoothly.

Dropping two zeros off the Yen would make calculations simpler, as moving the "new" Yen closer to the Dollar in value. Believe me, this affects nothing.

As an amusing aside, about the same time, the issuer of our paper money, the Bank of Mexico, decided to stop printing
"Will pay to the bearer on demand" on its paper money. This legend was printed long after any practical use for it, as a custom; so now our paper money just says "Bank of Mexico".

Now that I am posting, I'll take the opportunity to mention, what I have perhaps already mentioned, that the new "golden" Dollar, actually brass or whatever -
the "Sacawagea" - is prelude:

Eventually, you won't find Dollar bills. I'll bet that the Fed will suspend printing of the Dollar Bill - too expensive to print such massive amount of notes. Easier and cheaper to mint a garbage coin that will last longer.

But that's just the beginning of a process. Later on, at the rate M1, M2 and M3 are growing (see chart at www.goldensextant.com) you will find $5 Dollar coins, then $10 Dollar coins, $20, $50, etc etc.

Making the Dollar coin bright and shiny was a ploy to get the populace to accept it.

Sierra



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