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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 6/21/2001 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) Black Blade (6/21/01; 23:42:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 56619) As Electricity Bills Rise, Output and Economy Falter http://www.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Economies&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_econ&T=markets_bfgcgi_content99.ht&s2=ad_right1_economies&bt=ad_position1_economies&middle=ad_frame2_economies&s=AOypQ.BXOQXMgRWxl Snippits:Chicago, June 15 (Bloomberg) -- Rising electricity bills in the western U.S. threaten to damp consumer spending and corporate profits, just as the Federal Reserve and the Bush administration are trying to revive the U.S. economy. The administration and many economists say the rise in western power prices is the best way to prevent blackouts and to stimulate needed conservation efforts by consumers as well as investment in new plants by businesses. Still, the drain on consumer spending is just what the economy doesn't need right now.Astaris LLC, the phosphorous making joint venture of FMC Corp. and Solutia Inc., will fire 203 of 428 workers at its 50- year-old Pocatello, Idaho, plant because it can't afford to pay for electricity there. The facility, one of just two phosphorous plants left in the U.S., uses ``huge'' amounts of electricity to melt phosphoric shale and remove elemental phosphorous, which is then used in thousands of products from automatic dishwashing detergents to soda pop.Phoenix-based Phelps Dodge, the nation's biggest copper producer, has cut 80 jobs and may cut another 1,065 because of high energy costs and low copper prices.``Four companies that I follow for research -- Phelps Dodge Corp., Newmont Mining Corp., Barrick Gold Corp. and Allegheny Technologies Inc. -- are building their own power plants at their factories in the West,'' Tumazos said.Black Blade: Actually I agree with the Democrats on this point. Prices for energy should be high (much higher) to encourage energy conservation (as per Al Gore in his book - Earth in the Balance) and save the environment. I say go for it! Looks like socialist Democrats like "Red" Davis and new Democrats like Al Gore don't agree though. All I really can say at this point is - "Interesting Times." Black Blade (6/21/01; 23:19:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 56618) Energy Shortage Impacts Company Move http://hoovnews.hoovers.com/fp.asp?layout=displaynews&doc_id=NR20010621140.6_30120001a877b2ef Snippit:OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) A California company is relocating to Norman partly because Oklahoma does not have rolling blackouts, a company executive said. California's electrical utility costs and rolling blackouts had an impact on the company's decision. Black Blade: Another firm joins the exodus to more reliable regions of the US. They may be pleasantly surprised as their state taxes will be much lower as well. Economic outlook in California is grim, a bit of gold and silver as portfolio insurance could go a long way. ET (6/21/01; 23:10:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 56617) Adam Hamilton http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/hamilton061501.html From the article;"Second, in addition to the Greenspan effect on short-term Treasury yields, with the physical gold market very tight and daily volatility and gold lease rates ballooning dramatically in recent months, there is an ever-rising probability that gold's twenty plus year bear trend is embarking on or nearing a major reversal. While the gold carry trade was profitable when gold prices were falling, it is utterly suicidal while gold prices are rising. If bullion banks begin to detect an imminent gold rally, they will not want to borrow gold with a ten-foot pole. "For example, if a bullion bank borrows gold today at $275, but one year from now it expects gold to be $350 or higher, the loss from borrowing gold due to the rise in the gold price will DWARF any conceivable arbitrage carry spread. It will be forced to buy expensive gold in the open market to pay back its cheap gold loan. If expectations of a rising gold price take hold, even the anti-gold bullion banks will avoid the central banks hocking gold loans on the street corners like the plague. "Remember, unless you are an unfortunate capitalist forced by Democratic socialists to sell power below market prices in California, there are two consenting parties to every mutually beneficial free-market transaction. Central banks can offer all the gold they have left to lend, but if no one wants to borrow the gold due to the ever-increasing potential for a major gold rally, then nothing happens. The Japanese government has created an environment offering capital at almost zero percent interest for many years, yet it didn't do a bit of good because no one wanted to borrow. Credit is meaningless without a willing borrower." Camel (6/21/01; 23:01:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 56616) Scumbag Democrats I remember when I first posted on this forum six or eight months ago, Oreo pulled the same stunt as he recently did with FOA, and which he has done with several other posters, to wit, " NO,NO,NO,NO,NO, What you say actually HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the subject at hand," then procedes to spew out his Libertarian ideology as if it meant anything to anyone but a tiny handful of idealogues. The Liberterians got what? less than 1/2 of one percent of the vote. The Greens even got more votes this time.As far as I am concearned the kind of laissez faire free enterprise that he supports was discredited several hundred years ago with laws that were enacted to prevent slavery, indentured servitude,child labor, and the like. Do you really think that the American people want to give up Social Security and Medicare? Not likely. These are probably the two biggest socialist programs that have been enacted in this country. I'm sure there are others some successful some not. Undoubtably there have been abuses, but on balence our system works fairly well.. So in his twisted world what does that make me. A scumbag Democrat.On top of that the Libertarians inevitably support the big business interests . When has anyone ever heard any Libertarian support an environmental issue.When has anyone ever heard any Libertarian stand up to any of the big corporations.On the contrary they provide the polemics and the moral justification for groups such as the tobacco industry that have addicted, maimed and killed tens of millions.And that is just in this country. World wide , before it is all over they will have killed more than all the wars and persecutions of the entire 20th century . Yet it goes on and on .It seems to me Oreo has changed the subject and wants to put European socialism on trial, hence his complaints about "FOA the justifer of dubious political actions". Thats fine and I'm sure everyone would benifit from such a discussion but before the main subject has been the Euro and all its implications. And as far as"FOA, the perciever of evil in nature" my goodness , surely that is a subject that resonable people can disagree over. Even with my limited knowledge of history I think I could constuct a fairly convincing argument that there has been some evil afoot in the world. All of history has been interpreted in many ways by many people , but isn't Oreo actually saying that the we all must bend to his interpretation of history even though it represents only tiny minority of what respected intellects all over the world might agree withI think Oreo was right in his first post.He ought to just tone it down. And try not to use so many paragraphs. Black Blade (6/21/01; 23:01:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 56615) Davis insists on energy refunds http://www.sacbee.com/news/special/power/062101demand.html Snippit:WASHINGTON -- Gov. Gray Davis demanded Wednesday that power generators refund California nearly $9 billion in electricity charges.Black Blade: Sounds like a plan - that will give power generators incentive to do business in California. I think that "Red" Davis should pursue this line ;-) Black Blade (6/21/01; 22:55:22MT - usagold.com msg#: 56614) Energy Prices Rise Again in California ( Weather an early test for fee caps) http://www.sacbee.com/news/special/power/062001test.html Any severe jump in prices will likely be curbed, experts saySnippit:California electricity prices have shot back up recently, potentially posing an early test of a new federal price-control plan that takes effect today. Warm weather has sent wholesale prices doubling this week, partially reversing a dramatic slide that had some state officials believing they'd tamed the wildly unpredictable California electricity market. Black Blade: When the temporary surplus of hydroelectric power from the rapid snowpack runoff declines as the summer progresses, we will see energy supply come under additional pressure (especially if temperatures are high). The result is that this winter the Northwest will take it on the chin unless there are early rains to replenish and keep water levels high on the Columbia River so that the NW hydro dam system can provide sufficient power for the region. Black Blade (6/21/01; 22:39:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 56613) US economy: situation grim and getting worse http://www.newaus.com.au/econ252us.html Snippit:Some Fed officials are not just puzzled — they're paralysed. Nothing seems to be working. There has been a fairly rapid succession of rate cuts accompanied by massive monetary expansion and yet manufacturing continues to sink while unemployment creeps upwards, profits shrink, sales drop and productivity falls. And the glassy-eyed Greenspan is still trying to convince the country that he knows what he's doing. The man doesn't even know what's happening, let alone what he's doing. Danger could arise if the Democrats successfully blame Bush for the ‘90s excesses and the social and economic consequences. Readers should note that for some mysterious reason greed and excesses only occur during Republican administrations, as do depressions. Should the Democratic Party, whose hardcore basically consists of half-witted socialists, take control the urge to use the depression as an excuse to impose more regulations and higher taxes on the economy might prove irresistible.Black Blade: Good Aussie commentary! As I have been saying for some time here. Cheetah (AG) continues to monkey around with the economy and it will all end badly. I have accumulated quite a nice stash of PMs (will continue to accumulate more once I am settled in). He also talks of Democrats as "half-witted socialists," I would like to know what he has to say about the Aussie leaders. I have said for a long time (since George Dubya was nominated as GOP presidential candidate), that George Dudya would likely become known as the Herbert Hoover of our generation.News Flash - Now I know we are in trouble - American icon Archie Bunker (Carrol O’Conner) died today of a heart attack. Black Blade (6/21/01; 22:23:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 56612) GASP! ANALYST OWNS UP TO BAD TECH TIP http://nypostonline.com/business/32973.htm Snippit:Jeffrey Camp, No. 1-ranked internet analyst for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter admitted he was wrong and apologized for touting a tech stock that plunged 94 percent in one year. Apologies are rare on Wall Street and even rarer from research analysts, who are under scrutiny by Congress and regulators.Black Blade: Before you feel sorry for this scumbag, let it be known that he also missed the mark on many other Dot-Gones as well. He did not apologize for those blown calls. His cohort - analyst Mary Meeker never apologized - in fact she still touts the Dot-Bombs (soon to be Dot-Gones). Ever notice how very rare it is that they give a sell recommendation? Analysts are usually late to the party and always looking in the "Rear View Mirror" for the next recommendation. It is also called laziness. auspec (6/21/01; 21:48:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 56611) Leigh A little boredom is many galaxies away from starting any form of war. Consider it naught. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 21:27:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 56610) Leigh Oh BTW, was the last word of your post meant as a double entendre? (I am so BAD!) BUY GOLD! Cavan Man (6/21/01; 21:26:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 56609) Leigh, ORO, Randy et al etcetera Why is it that Americans insist upon taking umbrage with those who live another culture, another philosophy (no puns at all I am serious here), another political system another life far away from these shores? Why must we foist americanism upon the rest of humanity? What gives us the right to sit in judgment? Were five children murdered by their mother in Finland yesterday, Iraq, N. Korea? Perhaps Drudge missed it. Why are we compelled to suffocate the globe with our values and our culture and our systems and processes? Yes, we have the best economic/political system but, are we alone without sin eh? What say ye fair and noble knights and ladies? Truth, yes, let's have truth and freedom too.Why can't we strive (each of us) to subdue emotions and reflect intellectually and objectively; yea, even abstractly upon the issues which affect our lives for, there's not a whole heckuva lot we can do about it. The forum; she suffers.What is it about he EU that so many loathe? Leigh, with all due respect, it is attitudes like yours that march young men to early graves. Yes my friend, it is true.Remember, the sword of freedom cuts in both directions always; it is like a knight's broadsword with two edges rather than a sabre, rapier or scimitar. One direction in your favor and one, not so. Me too gone for awhile.....God Bless all here. I've learned a lot......CM Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 21:21:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 56608) Leigh On gun control his stick hit a bigger hornets nest than he thought! (IMHO) Good to hear the "family tree" information was absorbed! Ribbing aside, I would welcome him back. auspec (6/21/01; 21:15:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 56607) Leigh I showed this picture to cb2 and he said I was quite autistic, so this is my first showing. Thanks for asking. Leigh (6/21/01; 21:09:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 56606) auspec THAT'S what CB2 looks like? How do you know, auspec? Have you guys met? Golden Truth (6/21/01; 21:08:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 56605) SOMEBODY PAID THEIR "ENERGY BILL" IN GOLD!!!!! Has anybody been wondering why lease rates are dropping? Have you noticed the that "Energy Costs" are going down? Gasoline hit a six month low today,,,right before the summer driving season and with all the GAS GUZZLING" Motor homes filling up their tanks? OIL and Natural Gas also down? Even as air conditioning demand increases? There never was an Energy shortage only a "GOLD SHORTAGE" If I'am right watch as Oil and Natural Gas and Electricity costs start to fall! The "Energy crises" is OVER!!! at least until the GOLD runs out again! I wonder where all that Gold came from...Fort Knox?? Hmmm Good Luck To All, We Are Going to Need It! G.T auspec (6/21/01; 21:05:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 56604) 'Art ' Test \\/ ~ ~ o o .U. ) *** .|. -|----<Gold, Silver, Shares?? .|. .|. / \_ Get the real thing.....Got GATA!!!Has anyone else ever seen cb2 previously? Leigh (6/21/01; 21:01:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 56603) SLATT 'n' Panda SLATT, let's not get carried away here. Do you really want to listen to another go-round on gun control? Panda has probably moved along to another forum and is very happy there. Why don't we just let sleeping raccoon relatives lie? Journeyman (6/21/01; 21:00:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 56602) Advice to ORO, P.S. P.S ORO!Perhaps a few direct questions, like "If gold is a failure, how do you account for the period from x to y?" etc.I'm sure you could come up with a better selection of such questions than nearly anyone in the world.And under the current "engaged discussion" between the two of you, he'd probably feel obliged to answer.Just a thought,J-man Journeyman (6/21/01; 20:52:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 56601) Advice to ORO Hi ORO!It is a very rare circumstance when I find myself in a position to offer you advice, and perhaps I'm speaking out of turn here.This has absolutely nothing to do with my hallucination (previous post (below)).It's just that whoever attacks first usually loses the battle of public opinion. This is a lesson I learned the hard way several decades ago. Further, the attacker is somehow often subliminally perceived to have the weaker intellectual position, perhaps because he had to resort to force in lieu of a reasoned argument (and I'm certainly not suggesting that in your case.)Randy & FOA are right about a lot of things, and this is one of them.FOA is master of the posting equivalent of Mohamed Ali's "rop-a-dope." No matter how many times you hit him, he never seems effected (lately at least) and never loses his cool.It turns out that failing to acknowledge another agressive male's display is the most powerful response to said display in the primate family.Either the affronted displayer must attack or completely backdown. His most ferocious threats ignored? What to do. Are others watching.Not sure this applies directly, but I can tell you, being a recipient, I understand your reactions to TG's "rope-a-dope."You can see I caught myself a few days ago.Especially in the internet forum context, direct personal attack is almost a sure loser.However, it might be interesting to figure out just what TG's hidden agendas might be, should there be any, etc.High regards and keep cool,J-man Journeyman (6/21/01; 20:52:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 56600) Advice to ORO Hi ORO!It is a very rare circumstance when I find myself in a position to offer you advice, and perhaps I'm speaking out of turn here.This has absolutely nothing to do with my hallucination (previous post (below)).It's just that whoever attacks first usually loses the battle of public opinion. This is a lesson I learned the hard way several decades ago. Further, the attacker is somehow often subliminally perceived to have the weaker intellectual position, perhaps because he had to resort to force in lieu of a reasoned argument (and I'm certainly not suggesting that in your case.)Randy & FOA are right about a lot of things, and this is one of them.FOA is master of the posting equivalent of Mohamed Ali's "rop-a-dope." No matter how many times you hit him, he never seems effected (lately at least) and never loses his cool.It turns out that failing to acknowledge another agressive male's display is the most powerful response to said display in the primate family.Either the affronted displayer must attack or completely backdown. His most ferocious threats ignored? What to do. Are others watching.Not sure this applies directly, but I can tell you, being a recipient, I understand your reactions to TG's "rope-a-dope."You can see I caught myself a few days ago.Especially in the internet forum context, direct personal attack is almost a sure loser.However, it might be interesting to figure out just what TG's hidden agendas might be, should there be any, etc.High regards and keep cool,J-man Netking (6/21/01; 20:39:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 56599) Moore Welcomes China-EU Agreement on Chinese Accession to WTO / Solomon / Leigh http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200106/22/eng20010622_73232.html Snippit:World Trade Organization (WTO) Director-General Mike Moore praised Chinese and EU negotiation for reaching agreement on unresolved bilateral issues concerning China 's accession to the WTO. In a statement released Thursday in Geneva, Moore congratulated Chinese Trade Minister Shi Guangsheng, EU Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy and their respective negotiating teams for bringing China a significant step closer to membership in the WTO. "The EU-China accord is another step towards China's membership in our organization. . . . I remain hopeful that a decision can be take on China's membership at our Ministerial Conference in Doha, Qatar this November," Moore said. The director-general again urged all governments participating in the Working Party on China's accession to make every effort to resolve outstanding matters when they meet in Geneva from June 28 to July 4. . ."------------------------------------------------------------Solomon Weaver(56587)SURGE be the word.Yes indeed. . . .they're primarily control freaks, we may see a drop downward in Au Solomon to take out the longs before they let things be taken upward(which they know cannot stop and is a race against time)Interesting days yes. ------------------------------------------------------------Leigh(56589)Re:"Have you noticed that participation on the Forum seems to pick up when there's a little friction going on?"NetKing>"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend"(Pr27:17). It's good and "healthy" to be challenged, we need to know what viewpoint we hold to & why IMHO. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 20:39:47MT - usagold.com msg#: 56598) Leigh No apology necessary! I've already done that! And I offer it again, NOW! Panda, I offer my sincere APOLOGY again. I am a kinder, gentler SLATT! COME BACK! Journeyman (6/21/01; 20:20:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 56597) Threat, promise - - - or was I hallucinating? @Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 19:31:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 56588 Sir Randy,Please tell me I was hallucinating! Were you threatening ORO with excommunication???Regards,JourneymanP.S. I'm sure I was hallucinating - - - but ORO wouldn't leave alone. Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 20:04:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 56596) Leigh..."Gold is dull"??? http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/liberty.html Here's some shiny and beautiful all-American gold to lift your spirits during the dull periods you refer to.But answer me this: What's so dull? Surely the trade report I posted earlier today is enough to raise an eyebrow of even the heaviest sleeper. Why, even Rip VanWinkle dropped by The Tower today with a request that I suppress this very loud and disturbing message.Can you believe the net loss of gold from these United States???? The numbers are the real deal. How long before this coin's image is all we have left?Exciting and troubling times all rolled into one, if you ask me! goldfan (6/21/01; 20:02:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 56595) Randy (@ The Tower) ( msg#: 56572) Randy, thanks for your reply to me, here's my response:>>>>Goldfan, I'm inclined to think that someone has not delved into the matter of money and banking deep enough or objectively enough if they haven't made the association so well expressed by FOA.<<<<Thanks! I don't like FOA misrepresenting ORO and making declarations rather than arguments, and so I'm the bad guy for not thinking deeply enough??>>>Think for a moment about private property. This, and all that it stands for, is precisely what FOA expresses for gold in the future. To be sure, this is how I see it.<<<I am alarmed by ORO's analysis of the Euro crowd scheme, that seems to say my gold will not be worth what I hope for it as a savings vehicle, if the Euro scheme goes forward. Like Lady Leigh, (Leigh ( usagold.com msg#: 56576)) I am deeply distrustful of any Euro Government law-making that would take from me the right to do with my own gold whatever I wish, including borrow against it. I cannot understand how you or FOA should say you are all for private property, and at the same time be willing to endorse a scheme of the ECM to outlaw private citizens from borrowing against their gold, and arranging with their (socialist) brethren around the world to put a huge tax on the output of mines, to stop them profiting from the increase in the gold price, and wrecking the ECM schemes to dominate the world with Euros. Would you feel the same way, if the oil nations could form a cabal to control the price of oil to the same extent? Would you farm if you were not permitted by law to borrow to get through a bad year, or to store your crop for a better price in future? Why would you by law and the threat of force and violence deny gold miners fewer rights than farmers?>>>>Think next about the banking system, particularly one that uses a hard money denominator like gold. Deposits of gold property are put into what is essentially a "community till" and are commonly shared through credit. And as history has shown, when the community has shared and redistributed this property far and wide, inevitably beyond the ability to repay, the "market force" has always changed the rules of the game, bringing about the loss of wealth for those who orignally held and shared their private property via the banking/money system.<<<<My banking scheme, described by ORO, is one where the local bank has no central bank of last resort to bail it out of its frauds or mistakes. So the citizens keep their banker in line, and insist on a local accounting of all banking decisions. In my town, small as it is, there are no dishonest men running service stations. They need repeat customers to survive, and local people won't go back to a place they where they have been cheated, though they will be loyal for years, and even pay slightly higher prices, to someone who serves them well. It is my understanding of history, that only under the aegis of central banking, did we get the threat of these enormous country wide failures of banks, and currencies, and the debacle we are about to witness stemming from the greedy misuse of central banks gold reserves, for the private gain of their friends. My understanding is that nothing we are about to experience can demonstrate that private banking is a proven failure, even private gold banking. >>>Hold fast with private property, and leave the socialists with nothing but paper with which to work their magic. Fair enough?<<<<Fair enough indeed! And the Europeans are socialists and do not have our private personal good in mind, and as I read ORO, he is saying their schemes may well wreck my private scheme to protect myself by saving in gold. I confess I don't really understand why he says this, but I'm working on it. And I think everyone on this Forum would be well advised to study ORO, and seek clarifications of this, in case he is right...FWIWGoldfan Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 20:01:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 56594) Randy @ the Tower Was there ever an election for the "Gold Trail"? Or was it by decree? Leigh (6/21/01; 19:56:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 56593) elevator guy You haven't checked the price of gold in weeks? No prob, elevator guy, you haven't missed much.Speaking of sparks, where's Panda? (sorry SLATT) Where's Farfel? Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 19:55:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 56592) Stocks, Lies, and Petitions... A belated Thank You for the recommendation. I have been tracking the e-mails and their "yea" or "nay" commentary as received here at The Tower. Market forces are incredible things, you know. One side has a seemingly insurmountable lead over the other regarding pro vs con. Without saying any more, time will tell... elevator guy (6/21/01; 19:49:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 56591) Hello, everybody! I've been busy managing our family business, and so I haven't had a moment to drop in and see what is going on. Why I haven't even checked the price of gold in weeks!Nothings changed much, huh?Sorry to see FOA and ORO at odds. Such grand old trees, framing the halls of honor in the forest. Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 19:45:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 56590) barnacle bill's post on Greenspan: ---"He [Greenspan] has one gift most dangerous to a speculator, a vast command of a kind of language, grave and majestic, but of vague and uncertain import."---Thanks for sharing that observation. Here's some food for thought.It occurs to me that the wiser the man, the less he speaks with absolutes and certainties.Because he knows better.Hence the many qualifications and seemingly equivocal answers to what would otherwise seem to onlookers as straightforward and simple questions. Truth?If absolutes and certainties were indeed out there for the finding, surely we would all be in agreement by now with respect to all things golden. Leigh (6/21/01; 19:39:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 56589) Randy Have you noticed that participation on the Forum seems to pick up when there's a little friction going on? I've noticed it many times here. It's like a lightening storm cleansing the air. Gold is so...dull these days. We need to have a few sparks flying around! Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 19:31:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 56588) OK, ORO, here's what I'm hearing (and this is not a case unique to the two of you here) From your elaboration, I'm hearing that you like neither the "quality" of FOA's analysis of history and economics, nor do you like him as any such person who would deliver content that stands in oposition to your personal views and understandings. And most of all, it seems you are saying you are troubled because your particular messages are not making inroads -- he is responding to points that are not your own.This is certainly not an isolated phenomenon. I've seen similar discontent flare up in dialog between other pairs of posters. As a reminder, there is nothing that compels any one person to even be aware of this website, less that compels them to read the writings of another poster, much less to dedicate themself to offer consistent response or feedback. My recommended two approaches whenever two posters somehow fall into disharmonious relations is this: 1) kill the other guy with kindness as you deliver your counterpoints to his views, and 2) ignore those you feel to be hopeless idiots. Noticeably, FOA hasn't opted for option #2, I would think with good reason.Consider this also. If you deem there to be philosophical differences between you two, then surely FOA is wearing the other shoe of this matched pair, and is also feeling the pinch of its poor fit. To his credit, he has withheld any similar "threat" to yours of posting "rough words" that would as you've said, "come off as a personal attack, which perhaps they would be."Now to the heart of the matter: off and on in the history of the forum we've seen several posters come and go who were not fully balanced, to put it tactfully. Yet you didn't come forward at those times suggesting that you stood poised to be blunt with your infallible knowledge of their personal shortcomings (at least so far as you see them). And with good reason. As we all know, this forum is provided to explore the role of personal gold ownership in portfolio diversification. Naturally, this involves an exploration into expectations of economic trends and pertinent developments in domestic and international monetary policy. There is no need or purpose served in offering personal assessments of individual posters because their commentaries often speak for themselves on these accounts. And to that end, having come from unbiased origins, it is my professional judgement that the conclusions drawn by FOA are in fact well founded in both logic AND historical evidence.I surely speak to everyone when I say this: For the welfare of the forum and the spirit it engenders for civil discourse, I suggest you continue to focus on the content of your personal gold-related messages and viewpoints. Your disapproval or dissatisfaction with another poster's participation and personal shorcomings as you personally perceive them are quite unique to you and irrelevant to the wider world.As I've said before, none of us as individuals have significant impact on market forces as they carve their channel through time. To perceive any of this as personal is to have let your ego get the best of you. Being human, I expect it to happen to me, and I try not to let it disrupt the flow of the forum as we endeavor to show our visitors that holding gold is in their best interests.It looks easy enough to provide for such a civil forum for gold discussion, but strangely, it is not.Now back to the business at hand. Gold: love it...or leave it? Solomon Weaver (6/21/01; 19:31:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 56587) SURGE be the word Netking Watching the market this week we can say, the Au/Ag plunge protection team aint dead yet yes.----------------------------Gold must be protected from surging.Poor old Solomon Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 19:29:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 56586) Randy @ the Tower It has been nearly 200 posts ago that the PETITION (#56391)was presented! Yet no word from the Tower? Even after the majority of the posts since have been in response to the call for opinions from the forum participants? Hello! Anyone in there? We await an answer based upon merit of the position and the Tower's solicitation of input from the forum! Surely the Tower is worldly and cosmopolitan in their attitude toward golden ideas not homegrown? Netking (6/21/01; 19:11:29MT - usagold.com msg#: 56585) megatron Megatron(56569)No, sorry I cannot find you a URL for this info. However this has come from two sources in the industry "usually reliable" and believed to be so on this occasion.Watching the market this week we can say, the Au/Ag plunge protection team aint dead yet yes. miner49er (6/21/01; 19:10:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 56584) Tail Wags Dog... (and a digression or two) (first, I've not read any of the past few days' posts, but see that the subject matter today hits some of my offering, so I apologize for any redundancy - the post is not in response to anyone, and is meant as "standalone"...)Plausible scenario? Market gets hint that AG may "only" cut by 25 bp, which is all but assured, but market players really want 50, so the usual suspects embark on running the tape with the usual tricks, spinning the usual on the financial love-channels, and rumoring on the wires that AG is hinting perhaps at a "deeper cut."What's a poor FRB guy to do? The markets go meteoric on this premise, and then he turns around and "disappoints" with only 25, and risks it all tanking? Meanwhile, our structural predicaments remain the same. Trapped. US is forced to an eternally stronger dollar under the contradictory paradigm of providing for such by making them cheaper and more available. The giant sucking sound is really the vortex of this out- of-control US financial black-hole consuming and smashing into annihilation every alternative financial instrument and system around.Our exporting industries will eventually become utterly decimated, but we can't weaken the dollar as this would be the signal to our foreign holders to dump. On the other hand, our vital import - oil - will eventually be priced to reflect the increasingly worthless paper exchanged for it. But we can't afford to strengthen the dollar the old-fashioned way (by making them scarcer and more reflective of national output in real terms), as this would destroy liquidity, and cause the likewise out-of-control derivatives structures to dissemble and the entire system to instantly seize. So we have to continue cheapening the dollar, to keep the financial beast viable, while conning/coercing dollar-holders to keep holding and even accumulate more of them.If you've ever known someone who has had to undertake the "living" of a lie, it is interesting to note the real and poisonous distortions that take place to the individual's character. Our controlling authorities know they are lying. I do believe however, that they believe, by and large, that they have to do this. Some are genuinely held hostage to financial interests in a TBTF dilemma. Others recognize the dilemma, but seek to maintain it because they know/believe that failure of the system would indeed be so terrifyingly catastrophic, as to forbid it at all costs. Hence, all the counterparties to this bet, who must suffer to keep things going, are indeed expendable.So again... what's an FRB head, Sec'y of Treasury, or US President to do? Really? Indeed, this constant lie, while justified in their minds by the foregoing, still is poisoning their souls and conscience, as well as all those who affirm it. And the nation suffers by these distortions in its leadership. It seems that Willem and Co. are not as they are painted by US media, i.e., caught in a strait betwixt two; but are patiently waiting for the US dynamic to run its course. Both sides are somewhat in a waiting game, but here I feel the Euro Zone has the upper hand. They wait on the inevitable, we wait on the exceptional. Euro Zone inflation is at this juncture fueled largely by increasing oil costs. We often look at the monolithic socialist structures in place on the continent as the reason for their relatively stagnant economies. Certainly a lot can be improved upon, but is it reasonable to say that:a) This kind of political structure has been in place there for decades now, and though exacerbated by the additional layer(s) added by the Brussels crowd, nothing terribly new is going on under their sun. One might say, socialism is already discounted by the system.b) We too have some horrific socialism here, and many businesses buckle under the mountain of inane regulations, high taxes, and threats/realities of legal shake-downs (in the name of resolving social inequities). We have prospered more than they because of a number of diverse reasons historically, and may still be reaping the harvest of a more prudently sown past. But in this time, it seems more our unique position of having world reserve currency (WRC) status that perpetuates the good times. Among other things, WRC status has allowed us the luxury of excessively lowering the cost of capital which does offset tax/regulation costs. This cancelling out effect masks the effects of our socialism vs. theirs. It also lets us export the effects of this excessive monetary creation to virtually everyone else. Could perhaps ECBs and other powerful interests have been encouraging socialist politicians and politics all along for reasons other than simply to dominate and enslave humanity? After all, socialist systems provide the means to help offset this "imported" inflation by siphoning excess currency out of the hands of their citizenry through the regulatory/taxation structures inherent in them. Since this process cannot be perfectly fine-tuned, fiat as it is, growth will suffer, and government will grow to monstrous size. Yet, it was (in an entirely fiat world) believed perhaps the only mechanism to control the local economic effects of irresponsible behavior on the part of WRC (USD) authorities. Formerly, in the world of Bretton Woods, gold was the tool to accomplish this. The US pegged to gold, the rest (i.e., the other Bretton Woods signatories) pegged to the US dollar. If we became too expansive, "the rest", which end up holding the excess dollars, could check this by buying gold with the dollars when they believe the expansion to be excessive. Their reserves remain net the same, but the US reserve position relative to gold is shown to be what it is on the US's own turf - excessive. The upshot being that the problems brought on by over-expansion encourage action to be taken to contract.Likewise, a restrictive monetary policy (ha-ha), would cause the reserve positions of "the rest" to contract, as dollars became more scarce. To fend off this deflationary situation, "the rest" could sell gold for dollars, and increase their currency reserves, without changing their overall net reserves. This would increase US gold holdings, and again alter the US currency position relative to it, this time restrictive . This restrictiveness of the US reserve position on their home turf would cause deflationary symptoms to be felt locally, and provide incentive to take expansionary action.So goes the theory. Well, between the Viet Nam war, and Johnson's profligate socialist agenda, we kept inflating even as all our gold began to go out the door in truckloads, and the rest is history. So, now that there is no mechanism to check the WRC owners, another means must be found to check them when their expansions/contractions show their symptoms in the local economies. An outright return to a gold standard was perceived to be so deflationary, that it was ruled out, and no other fiat currency could hold its own, so what to do...?This is what some believe is the main purpose of the Euro, indeed FOA writes on this extensively. To wit, to provide a deep and broad enough alternative reserve currency to allow "the rest" to wean themselves from the unaccountable (since 1971), and now reckless policies of the USD authorities. Since this does not happen overnight, how can the world economies best mitigate the negative effects of irresponsible USD policy in the meantime?In the Bretton Woods system, it was understood that the US would maintain dollar/gold parity, and "the rest" would maintain the prescribed rates between their currencies and the US dollar. Today such parities no longer exist, but the USD is the WRC, and as such, those who use it are subject to the effects of its policies, and must have some tool to keep the effects of these policies in check. I'm not going to go down the path of SDRs, and the development of the current gold markets, gold derivatives, leasing, etc., here. Many others have already done so at great length, and far, far better than I ever could.Instead, I want to offer another perspective on why socialism became so entrenched in Europe from a pragmatic financial viewpoint. Since the breakdown of BW, floating exchange rates eventually evolved. Yet, truly free-market floating did not. Otherwise, basket-case economies would veritably go belly-up, and bring down too much else with them. The west could not afford a weak, but major, economy to fall apart utterly, as Moscow was always waiting in the wings to move in. Simple national security interests were motivation enough to employ forex manipulation. As I'm not an authority here, I will only say that my level of analysis seems to suggest that currencies were allowed to float, but there were "understood" boundaries that were abided, and these boundaries shifted from time-to-time as conditions warranted. So with the USD as the WRC, and former BW signatories effectively "fixed-floating" within an implied range (as well as other impacted/impacting currencies), we have the remnants of BW, the skeleton without the guts and flesh. And while vast differences exist regarding asymmetry/symmetry in these relationships, one thing remains the same, that the controlling authorities must have the clout to influence monetary conditions on their behalf. Socialism was perceived to provide this clout by demonstrating to other financial authorities that through taxation/regulation, a country may (however inefficiently) put a throttle on growth, and channel more currency into government coffers where the authorities can control what's done with it. This makes the controlling authority out to be wielding one big sledgehammer instead of countless jewellery hammers tapping and pinging at random.So the financial masters found good and lusty comfort sharing their bed with socialist power-mongers as well as the idealogues, all nominally aiming for the same goal: Socialism. Yet each having different reasons and different conceptions of what that meant. Could this mean a major sea change when Socialism used as a tool is no longer needed? Are we headed for a super powerful mega-corporatist European state?It seems that as far as fiat goes, if Europe stays the course, and does not blink, and can somehow influence oil prices to not rise precipitously (also in the US best interests), they will still win the showdown, and global opinion will shift perhaps very suddenly to the Euro as THE reserve currency. I am not a fan of the World According to Brussels, but as a dispassionate observer, I see it as inevitable, and the Euro knocking down dominoes one-by-one, and starting in the UK. Oil will not rise prohibitively until this time. If it did, it could kill off both Euro and USD zone economies, and then there are not enough buyers for the oil.(down the home stretch now...)If the US sucks it in, and vigorously pursues alternatives on a major scale to wean from foreign oil, and can somehow buy-off, pay-off, intimidate, or seduce oil producers to keep it cheap enough to not cripple their economy, but expensive enough to keep the inflationary fires to the Euro Zone's feet, for just a few more years (and barring catastrophic exogenous events), maybe, just maybe, they can let go of the reigns of WRC status. Until that time, such a transition will cause untold misery. Indeed they wait on the inevitable, we wait on the exceptional. Am beginning to ramble without being able to develop these points, so will stop here... If you read it all, thanks for your time... miner Tree in the Forest (6/21/01; 19:10:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 56583) Leigh Thank you Leigh. I'm glad you're at this roundtable. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 19:07:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 56582) goldfan Good points! The last time Europe was united was in the effort to rid the continent of Napoleon. Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape (6/21/01; 18:52:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 56581) Leigh Well said! BTW: You are not dull! POSTING HERE PROVES THAT! barnacle bill (6/21/01; 18:39:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 56580) Greenspan I was looking through a book of quotations and I noticed one about W. E. Gladstone which made me think of Greenspan: "He has one gift most dangerous to a speculator, a vast command of a kind of language, grave and majestic, but of vague and uncertain import." MacAulay, Essays: Gladstone on Church and State goldfan (6/21/01; 18:37:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 56579) Euro/gold debates Distillations:Pondering what FOA and ORO and others have been saying re Euro, gold, currency and wealth, trying to make sense of this welter of claims, counter-claims, data and thoughts, I decided to set out what I believe. (Note that a large part of what I believe, has been formed from my life experience, allied to what I have been taught here to look at, by ORO, but also by FOA/Another and others, ie. Journeyman, Peter Asher, and many else).What I have come to believe:1. Every economic exchange is fundamentally barter, and "money" and all the apparatus of "finance" are merely systems put in place to facilitate the exchange.2. Wealth is what I feel good about having.3. Saving is a way of protecting my "barter power", or of storing the actual goods or productive assets I need, for survival and for enjoyment of my "wealth".Right now, people can easily buy and save gold as a wealth or savings asset, just as they have always been able to do. Most people in the Western world, and many in the East, don't acquire gold for other than its use as jewelry, or display of wealth status. This is because for whatever reason they have adopted fiat currencies, in particular the US$ as vehicles for this purpose. And most particularly in the West, they have adopted their real estate, their homes, for this purpose. About the Euro. No large scale world religion has survived without an army to back it up. Or without the protection of an army in the country where it is being practiced. Same with any currency aspiring to be the reserve currency for the world. The US$ got that status by the power of the US Army in two world wars, the Korean War, the Vietnam and the Gulf Wars and a lot of other skirmishes along the way. When it became necessary for people to borrow, they borrowed from the US, effectively at the point of a gun. And thus had to compete with each other to earn US$ to repay the loans. So US citizens got to enjoy tribute from the rest of the world, only having to print the money to keep the stuff flowing in. It's not likely the Euro is going to mean much to the rest of the world, unless they have to buy weapons or protection or oil with the Euro's they earn. They won't get oil as long as the Middle East needs US weapons for stability. Which looks like being a long time indeed.It is likely that gold is vastly undervalued in US$ terms. This is the same as saying that the US$ is vastly overvalued in its purchasing power of real goods and services needed for survival, for commerce. It's likely that gold is valued about right in Indian Rupee or Turkish Lira terms. Maybe I'm a bit off in this statement. But you see the point I'm trying to make. We in the West have gotten used to living too well, far beyond what our work and ideas are worth, in world terms. In much of the rest of the world, people can and do use gold as a "survival of last resort" asset. So even today's gold prices must be about right for their standard of living.When the US$ crashes, the asset market bubbles collapse, maybe people in the West will start to use gold again as a saving and wealth vehicle. Maybe they will be so disgusted, so impoverished and dismayed, by the greed and incompetence of their governments, that enforced this fraudulent fiat currency on them, they will repudiate all forms of fiat. And return to using only gold as currency. I hope so. If any government where I live tries to enforce a law saying I may own gold but not use it as collateral, not borrow against it, then I will move my gold elsewhere. If I have to dip into my gold reserves, I want it to be by way of a loan, not a forced sale advertising to all that I am in trouble and would have to accept a lowball price. Right now as a form of savings, gold is more valuable to me than would be a Modigliani. First because it is far more "liquid', more easily converted to cash anywhere. Second, and more importantly, because I can borrow against it, which I cannot easily do with the painting. This would be true for me, whether or not the US$ collapses. When it does, my little gold still may not buy a Modigliani, but in the turmoil, the gold will be worth a lot more to me than would the art.FWIWGoldfan CoBra(too) (6/21/01; 18:35:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 56578) ... And to Whom it may Concern .... ... All sorts of things may be jamming the European door, though certainly not monsters - well, dam'it, close the door don't slam it ... luv ya too - cb2 megatron (6/21/01; 18:26:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 56577) Leigh I certainly wouldn't catagorize anyone who dislikes 'European style' socialism as 'dull'. ;) Leigh (6/21/01; 18:17:03MT - usagold.com msg#: 56576) FOA I am probably the least qualified on this Forum to weigh in on the FOA-ORO debate, but I do have a little something to say. It is that FOA's messages seem to be growing more and more political. He started out years ago talking about oil and hyperinflation, and I think most of us understood and appreciated his message. But now he seems to be touting the European Socialist agenda. One has only to look at the news each day to grow more suspicious of this arrogant bunch, who are unstoppable in their crazed pursuit of power.FOA, you're a member of our Forum "family," and you know that you're loved for yourself. If you must associate with those European monsters from hell, please don't try to convince us that they have our best interests in mind. Even the dullest of us (like me) know better. megatron (6/21/01; 18:08:38MT - usagold.com msg#: 56575) NetKing Of course these things get over-simplified, but apparently the guys at SI are saying that Pasminco has 'sold forward' 5 years of silver production, which for them is a by-product as they are not primarily silver miners. I am unclear as to whether they are the third largest silver miners or refiners? Still, there was total indifference from the market. Their shares were halted today and could declare bankrupcy. Can there be that much sloshing around the commodities market that this kind of event has no effect? 5 YEARS of production! Not to mention the contractual obligations, etc. Bizzare. Have to e-mail Butler and get his take. Netking (6/21/01; 17:57:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 56574) Fed's selling Gold http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/H41/ What are the boys up to now? ORO (6/21/01; 17:47:48MT - usagold.com msg#: 56573) Randy - claims of truth by association The point of my critiques have nothing to do with FOA the "messenger".The critiques have much to do with FOA the "economist" and FOA the "monetary historian". Also with FOA the "justifier" of dubious political actions, the perceiver of evil in nature, and the (apparent) believer in association over reason (which makes his posts more colorful and inviting). It has some to do with his not reading actual motives of his sources but instead posting what feel to me like party line messages as delivered to him.It has most to do with what seems to be his not reading the contents of my posts but instead reacting to his personal associations arising from words and sentences that sound like something he heard before. This is already too much. I will post the commentary if FOA agrees to be exposed to it. If not, I will try to take out what would come accross as a personal attack and try to sugar coat it some more. Somehow, it just does not come out any nicer when sweetened. Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 17:42:12MT - usagold.com msg#: 56572) Goldfan: property, banking, and socialism Goldfan, I'm inclined to think that someone has not delved into the matter of money and banking deep enough or objectively enough if they haven't made the association so well expressed by FOA.Think for a moment about private property. This, and all that it stands for, is precisely what FOA expresses for gold in the future. To be sure, this is how I see it. (Even in China! Can you believe it? <smile>)Think next about the banking system, particularly one that uses a hard money denominator like gold. Deposits of gold property are put into what is essentially a "community till" and are commonly shared through credit. And as history has shown, when the community has shared and redistributed this property far and wide, inevitably beyond the ability to repay, the "market force" has always changed the rules of the game, bringing about the loss of wealth for those who orignally held and shared their private property via the banking/money system. To say "this isn't so" or "that isn't so" on the grounds that "the government intervened to make it happen", I say "What's your point?" All roads lead to Rome, my friend.Hold fast with private property, and leave the socialists with nothing but paper with which to work their magic. Fair enough? CoBra(too) (6/21/01; 17:39:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 56571) EU - and the Backlash of Götheborg - The Salzburg Summit of the WEF is in jeopardy - and it should be! Why would we want another circus of "Economic Summet-ry" as we can forsee it's going to be a riot re- hash of the last three ... World Economic Fora's ..id est ... It would be, not only costly, though disastrous to the tourist industry in our fair Salzburg. Well, basically, there must be something wrong in the spree of WEF Meetings - since the greetings of these occasions have been met - at least since Seattle - with hatred!... and don't battle the berated! In the same (non-)sense, I would like to ask you, where do you see today an European, worth the description, as the treaty of Nice, was the last piece of garbage to divide (without rule) the miniscule adage of cohesion. And how will a € ever work, a political beast,withouth love, a home, a country, a concept and a consensus as to what it should be in the end to amend to a degree the totally differentiating (real)growth rates in GNP of the respective (dis-)membered country!? As it seems to me, Europe has rarely been more apart as today ... and we'll still mend the unmending rifts by first aid tape and cry hooray - we've saved the day ... exactly for today ... But then, we'll ballot for all our eastern neighbours to join the club, which is not only in disarray, though just may dissolve into the spray of history ... Though, I can't laugh - the Irish vote was just as any member of a brotherhood - may pay another round of beer and the senseless discussions will re-appear, since the Eurocrats won't disappear ... Tell me, where is the last EUROPEAN? - A species extinct before it even started to exist - together with(out), its funny money, the political crony can't abuse yet, you bet - as soon as its there (Hi, George die Taschen sind leer) it will be a chimera. Born to be the confiscatory apology of the policy of statist's usury. Be free - buy gold and hold the only true philosphy - in your best interest - cb2 Randy (@ The Tower) (6/21/01; 17:14:57MT - usagold.com msg#: 56570) Musings inspired by Netking (msg#: 56547) Netking said: ---"So much of what we do in human capital terms is trading. We put in time, money & effort based on our research into an endeavour & hope to get an expected return/result("profit") in return."---Do all of us know or agree on what is meant by the term "profit"? Put differently, it is possible that one man (a primative) sees "magic" where another man sees plain ol' technology at work.With "profit", some people form the notion that it is "something for nothing", or perhaps "two for the price of one". As implied by the term trade, the perspective of the market is that an even-value exchange has occured. Each party involved in the trade exchange deemed that they received fair compensation, and perhaps a position that will serve them with better advantage into the future. This is obvious in a direct barter swap. With money, it is fair to say that the money received for the good or service is not a magical profit of "something for nothing" or "two for the price of one". If your receipts for output exceed your cost of inputs, the difference is the market's best judgement of fair compensation to you for your total service or role in the affair at hand.Sometimes life blows you a windfall of wealth (free apple?), in which case you do in fact "profit magically". If you seek the market's judgement, it will show a willingness to deliver payment in fair trade as though you were the average producer with the full cost of inputs. What's my point? The simple form of the lesson is that the road to riches is not often traveled on the back of windfall profits. It is taken one step at a time as wealth is built (and swapped for other forms of wealth) through a person's lifetime of personal effort.Netking also said, ---"In trading the thing that speaks so clearly to me is this: So much human misery could be avoided if the implemtation of an effective 'stop-loss' was understood followed."---Wise words!!! Let physical gold be your "stop-loss" as you create and trade your forms of wealth throughout your life. megatron (6/21/01; 17:09:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 56569) NetKing Could you paste or post a link to PAS 'physical short' positions. Amounts, dates, etc. Thanx Netking (6/21/01; 16:53:21MT - usagold.com msg#: 56568) Tree in the Forest / Megatron - Somethin's Up . . . Tree/Mega. It was also interesting to note also that: When Pasminco (PAS) worlds third largest silver producer and also a holder of one of the largest physical short positions in the world went into suspension this week that . . . . silver was hammered on the 24hr graph. A shutdown or bankruptcy could throw the market into disarray. goldfan (6/21/01; 16:52:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 56567) FOA-ORO debates, Randy, and all Concerning the FOA-ORO debates:I eagerly read whatever ORO says, since I know it will repay my effort to understand it. But I have become disenchanted with FOA's writings. He too often attributes to ORO things ORO did not say, and clearly does not believe. At several points, he calls ORO a "hard money socialist". Anyone who can stretch the definition of "socialist" to include ORO is not to be trusted in anything he says, in English anyway. IMHO. To me, reading FOA is like swimming in wet sand. Reading ORO, on the other hand, is like reading a fascinating detective novel, in a slightly foreign language. Surely ORO is a prophet. Maybe the person FOA is a prophet, but not to me. Despite all this, I am grateful to FOA, for having sparked a series of very useful, interesting, and educational writings from ORO. As for ORO's upset over the way he is read and responded to by FOA (if that is his upset) then I would offer to ORO the thought that a good way to use this "upset energy" would be to keep on writing brilliant pieces like his 544. I am certain that there are many reading here who, like me,are delighted with this sort of analysis and deduction, every day hoping for more.Goldfan CoBra(too) (6/21/01; 16:29:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 56566) Hindenburg - @ an old Viennese Literate's Cafe ... ... Qu. to Max Lieberman, a painter of portaits, famous in his time - Max would you paint a portrait of Hindenburg? ... "Paint?" ... " Hell, NO, I'd not even piss him in the snow!" Sorry, for the analogy as it reminds me of the potential portrait of Greenie, the 'Genie', producing hard to abuse, refuse at the location, where Max has put the final destination of the portrait of Hindenburg. And it has nothing to do with the wisdom of Torberg, who may have said: "Any human, who looks a bit more sophisticated than an ape - is a real luxury!" ... Amen - got my spouse to delouse - cb2 Christian (06/21/01; 15:59:40MT - usagold.com msg#: 56565) Free Trade All a government has to do to increase its real income is print money and spend the proceeds on commodities like gold and silver. It costs 15 cents to print $1000 worth of paper $'s and that $1000 will buy 3.7 ounces of gold or 225 ounces of silver. The government with its printing paper scam can afford to sell it for less. In this way the government can divert resources from private use and utilize it for its own purpose. The resulting swindle represents revenue to the government, a means to manipulate the POG and promote fiat. Free trade = You trade your labor, goods or assets for our freshly printed dollars and we sell it for the purpose of revenue enhancement. The FED is backstopping its member banks gold ever growing gold short position. Our government is selling gold that is still in the ground. In the ground is as good of a storage place as anywhere else. It is safer then above ground storage. The U.S. $ is going to get stronger for the simple reason that masses of credit that is already created will require masses of payments plus interest cost that will force people to work and diverts resources from private use. It is an indirect way of doing what President F.D. Roosevelt proclaation did in 1933 when --"All safe deposit boxes in banks are to be sealed and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the I.R.S. Who is the biggest seller of gold? (USA Government) How did they pay for it? (Paper $'s) Where did the gold go that was sold? (BIS- to settle the trade deficit) Randy (@ The Tower) (06/21/01; 15:57:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 56564) What's up, ORO? (msg#: 56545) "I have quite a few comments I prepared..... They will come off as a personal attack, which perhaps they would be."------------I would think that you would know to as great an extent as anyone here that these issues being discussed on each side of the debate -- particularly at the level we are dealing -- have very little room for anything "personal".As I have stressed many times, what we are seeing is MARKET FORCES at work. In all of human action, there is nothing that can stand long in the way of market forces. The existence and shape of governments themselves are an end result of market forces. That's a hard truth to anyone that doesn't like the "ruling regime" in its entirety, and I'm sure there is no single person out there who IS COMPLETELY satisfied with their current manifestation (infestation?) of government as dictated by the market force. But then again, that's what compromise through market force ("majority rule") is all about. You don't have to like it, but only a fool would make it "personal".As much credit and respect as I have for FOA for his ability to see clearly, I will stop short of giving him full credit for personally implementing the process that is unfolding to your apparent dismay. I would think that is quite out of any one person's control.What has changed in your mind that you deem it fit to make this personal? Do you hold Herb Morrison personally accountable for his observation of the Hindenberg disaster at Lakehurst? I should hope not. Again, I would think you would know better, and would be disappointed to learn anything confirming the contrary.Perhaps there are several others here who could benefit from this perspective. Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLD (06/21/01; 15:09:52MT - usagold.com msg#: 56563) Hard assets... Easy access! http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/st_gaudens.html
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