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ARCHIVED DISCUSSION FROM 11/13/2002 All times are U.S. Mountain Time (Yesterday's Discussion.) TownCrier (11/13/02; 23:30:31MT - usagold.com msg#: 89579) Latest installment from The Rocket School of Economics http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/RocketSchool/vonBraun.html This time Professor von Braun talks about both ends when one is "Carrying a Big Stick."He begins:----------"We are all familiar with the "big stick" concept and its use by the US over the last 100 or so years. If there was a non -compliant country somewhere on the planet then call the navy and send a battleship or two to assist in the compliance process. Quite simple really!"However the world has changed since the early 1900's. We now have instant communications, instant money transfers and instant news coverage. So the surprise element is not quite as useful as it was back in the "old" days. Which sort of suggests that current users and or implementers of the "big stick" policy might want to think again."Perhaps the correct question they should be asking themselves is: "Is this big stick really a big stick?" Every stick has two ends. Battleships can't sail without fuel and fuel has to be paid for. Now looking down the barrel of a sixteen-inch gun was a very good incentive to accept the currency of the owner of that barrel and needless to say the "big sticks" of the "old" days had no problem obtaining fuel. But is this the case today?"George W's problem, although he does not realize it yet, is that the key ingredient to his "let's invade the world" policy, which is the US dollar, has already invaded the world without his permission. Imagine that!"-------You will want to vist the url to see the good Professor arrive at his conclusion:"No doubt the issuers of all these IOU's will attempt to allay the arising of any investment communities doubts about the redeem ability of said IOU's and it could result in a last ditch attempt to banish the rogue alternative by creating the perception that there is an endless supply, but George W would be wise to ensure that he has some gold somewhere, just in case."So too should any astute investor that is holding IOU's that are not redeemable for anything other than more IOU's! " GratefulForGold (11/13/02; 23:17:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 89578) Morality and Survival I've very much enjoyed the posts today. @Sierra Madre and @Bound Spirit, your excellent posts have reminded me of something I've long forgotten. I am much less educated (who woulda guessed?) than most of the excellent thinkers here who bless us by their sharing. That makes me a little shy about posting this very simplistic thought about a means to return to morality. But, that not having stopped me in the past...I remember reading the 12 Steps of AA. At the time, I recall being impressed with the simplicity of the 12 Steps. Even more impressed with the fact that they worked to a great degree! The necessary ingredient seemed to be reaching a "bottom," of being brought to one's knees. Then comes the willingness to live a different way, surrendering one's will (ego) to a higher power. I saw that if those 12 Steps were sincerely, whole-heartedly worked, they produced the "miracle" of transformation. Unless I'm mistaken, recovering alcoholics practicing the AA principles live some of the most moral lives I've encountered. They have to because their survival (remaining sober) depends upon it. And, AA has no "religious" affiliation, just "God" as one understands him/her/it. Spiritual. Remembering those 12 Steps has, somehow, given me a renewed faith that just perhaps we (mankind) can survive whatever may befall us in the probable difficult, if not terrible, times to come. I have felt that our moral character in the US has deteriorated and that the balance of morality/immorality leans disturbingly toward total self-centeredness, chaos and survival of the un-fittest! Right now, though, I have a glimmer of hope that if life "brings us to our knees," that we may have the opportunity to follow the simple morality encompassed in those AA principles. If it can work for a desperate alcoholic (and other offshoot variations), then it conceivably could work for desperate people seeking a stronger morality upon which to base their lives...and survive.Also, I remember reading the organizational 12 principles of AA (the 12 Traditions?) and thinking that they were so astoundingly simple and fair that communities, governments, civilizations could be founded on them!Well, I've managed to get myself excited with my little ray of hope, so I'm going to go out and find an AA Big Book and read those again!Thank you, again, for allowing me my simple thoughts and for not laughing at me (or at least keeping it to yourselves!). Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 22:19:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 89577) Bound Spirit and Golden Bear: Heartfelt thanks! Thank you so much, for your kind words! Also thanks to all the others that responded so positively to what I had to say.Bound Spirit: you wrote in your post #89583:"I can't find my way to finding the mechanism that will return us to, as you put it, "a rebirth of moral qualities"."I think my post was more than enough for one day, but I do want to reply to this doubt you have. The key word seems to me, to be "mechanism". If we turn to our physical world, there is indeed little hope. Our culture has taught us to rely exclusively on reason and rationality. Tom Paine comes to mind. A Constitution all worked out by means of reason. Excessive reliance on reason, or exclusive reliance on reason, got us into this mess of a world, and exclusive reliance on reason, will not get us out of it. This is not the place to go into metaphysics - so discredited in our time - but there is a world out there, beyond our sensual world, from which causes operate on the natural world.Perhaps the begining of wisdom and of rebirth, is to realize we are lost, irrevocably lost. Only then is the mind open to regenerating influences. These thoughts do not come from the sphere of reason, they come from Intuition. A "rebirth" cannot come from Reason alone, from "mechanism". It will have its source - dare I say it - from the Spiritual World. Words I hesistate to express.Therefore, I have Hope.Enough sermonizing! I'll get a bad reputation here.Sierra ski (11/13/02; 22:17:14MT - usagold.com msg#: 89576) Jim Dines on gold and silver Not a great day for gold and silver so here is a little something to cheer you up.....I get a LOT of junk mail. Much of it is investment related which I scan for ideas and insight. Got a recent mailing form Jim Dines. He has successfully been in the investment newsletter business for a very long time. I have heard him speak many times and he has a remarkable track record. He is a rather obnoxious fellow but nonetheless, I pay close attention to his predictions and market calls because he is often right. (IMHO most investors should lean on the advice of proven market pros for investment decisions. We wisely hire lawyers for legal problems and go to doctors for medical problems. However when it comes to investment/retirement money the average Joe unwisely goes it alone.)So anyhow, what is Jim Dines now saying about gold and silver?He says, "Economic Tidal Wave #4 .... Gold could reach $3,000 to $5,000 an ounce or higher on a spike. Silver could shoot up to $250 an ounce."I think that the above numbers are worth looking at a little closer to see what Mr. Dines is really saying. Lets do the math. At $320 gold and $3K to $5K per ounce your investment would multiply by a factor of 9.4 to 15.6 ...... not a bad return. However at $4.50 silver, a spike to $250 is a 55.5x return on your investment!Therefore, Mr. Dines is predicting that silver is going to do much, much better than gold .... what many here have been saying right along.Be you in gold or silver or both .... I like what the man is saying. ElGordo (11/13/02; 22:01:32MT - usagold.com msg#: 89575) Cramer in handcuffs I wonder if Kudlow will do the video? Golden Bear (11/13/02; 21:21:02MT - usagold.com msg#: 89574) Bound Spirit (msg#: 89563) Your quote:"...The bottom line of our timesSierra,Outstanding post, I wish there were more posters here like you that are willing to discuss Gold from a moral quality perspective. In fact, my participation in this forum is primarily to exchange views relating to the issues you have advanced. The fact that there aren't more posts like yours, (in a place where you expect them) should serve as a good litmus test of how bereft the US (and I suspect, the world) is regarding an interest in moral issues and philosophy in general. I guess it must be because philosophy seems so abstract and ivory tower to most people that they can't see its relevance to the "fate of nations". They also have no education as you very aptly point out...."Sir,I would qualify your statement by saying that there would be many posters here who would contemplate the moral issues regarding our existence, however, perhaps some not as eloquently as Sir Sierra.Myself as an example: I read the breathtaking posts on this forum and my mind has food for thought for days. At other times, topics are handled in a way which are similar to the way I have been thinking, but I find it difficult to articulate those thoughts in a coherent manner - but it doesn't matter, because someone else has done so, and allowed me to reassess my own thoughts on all manner of subjects.I for one am very grateful for the brilliant minds who come and sit at the table, and assist in the evolution of understanding for us all...Cheers. goldquest (11/13/02; 21:20:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 89573) Thanks Black Blade! This little drama is going to be fun to watch! Cramer and Kudlow might get to watch the runaway gold prices from their suite at the crossbar hotel! goldquest (11/13/02; 21:10:36MT - usagold.com msg#: 89572) @timbervision Thank you! You made my day with the link about Cramer! I feel that this whole rotten mess will come crashing down on these people. When the gold manipulation finally surfaces, many of these same high profile, arrogant, crooks will get a chance to do the, "Perp walk!" Black Blade (11/13/02; 20:59:39MT - usagold.com msg#: 89571) Re: goldquest - Cramer /Berkowitz Indeed, Cramer (yes that Cramer of the Heckel and Jeckel show on CNBC) and his partner Berkowitz were just a couple of players in this massive fraud. Arthur Levitt (former SEC Chairman) apparently describes this IPO fiasco in his new book - "Take On the Street: What Wall Street and Corporate America Don't Want You to Know". Of course there is another book that is not very flattering of Jim Cramer called "Trading With The Enemy" written by a former Cramer-Berkowitz employee. We should expect to see a lot of these guys in handcuffs and a lot of lawsuits as the fallout continues while the economy and stock markets implode.- Black Blade mikal (11/13/02; 20:55:27MT - usagold.com msg#: 89570) Decay turns to mulch http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=848 November 13, 2002, 10:45pm ''The drawbacks of cultural globalization'' Sunday, November 10, 2002 By Wole AkandeYellowTimes.org Columnist (Nigeria) – The aggressive spread of market economics and communication technologies - often under the control of Western multinationals - brings new challenges to local cultures and values in Africa and other non-Western societies. Sometimes it seems as if a tidal wave of the worst Western culture is creeping across the globe like a giant strawberry milkshake oozing over the planet, with a flavor that is distinctly sweet, sickly and manifestly homogenous. Suddenly, people all over Africa and the rest of the non-Westernized regions of the world, appear to be imbibing materialistic and individualistic values previously associated with Western culture. What explains this apparently abrupt Westernization? One major reason is the structural change in the world economy: globalization and the flood of goods dumped in poor countries that are marketed by mass seductive advertising which is blatantly superficial but nonetheless successful in creating fresh desires in peoples of traditional societies. For some, especially the young, these new products and content with new ideas can be exhilarating. Change may mean escape from oppressive traditions. It may also bring new opportunities for cultures to mingle in creative ways. Obviously, it would be an excessive form of cultural fundamentalism to suggest that Africans should try to keep everything exactly as it is, rather than allowing culture to develop. However, there is genuine cause for concern about the rate at which cultures (African and non-African) are being undermined in a world that is bound together by ever-stronger economic ties. Starting in the sixteenth century, Western adventurers made a conscious effort to undermine the cultural heritage of various peoples around the world; this has been accomplished by imposing Western religion and cultural practices on those with a different way of life. Justified initially as a civilizing mission and subsequently dubbed modernization, in practice it was wholesale Westernization with very little room for any viable middle ground. For instance, in the 19th century, Abeokuta (a town in West Africa), inspired by its Western educated former slaves, responded to the challenges of these pervasive foreign influences with a unique form of defensive modernization and reform which eventually crumbled under the weight of the overwhelming imperial British power. Accordingly, until the late twentieth century, it was assumed that development for the colonized peoples must involve a denial of their history, a rejection of their cultural heritage and the adoption of Western cultural practices. The effect of this policy in the case of Africa, as Professor Andah once noted, was untold damage to the African psyche, "so much so that most Africans have come to believe as truth, the myths and lies about them as being primitive, history-less, mindless, cursed, lazy, inherently evil and corrupt, third world, underdeveloped." In short, today, African culture has been decimated. More importantly, colonialism paved the way for today's cultural globalization by leaving the colonized in a state of cultural disorientation and consequently vulnerable to continuing cultural invasion. This disorientation manifests itself in one or two extreme forms: 1) exaggerated attachment to an often reinvented past in the name of tradition and culture; or 2) attempts at wholesale adoption of anything and everything foreign. It may sound extreme but academic language studies have proven that particular aspects of culture can and do disappear forever; even optimistic estimates suggest that as many as 90 percent of the world's languages will disappear in the next century. While an important feature of globalization today is its de-Westernization (with the emergence of some non-Western nations - like Japan - as key actors), the reality is that in many important respects, Western culture (some would say American culture) remains the domineering force in the world today. Western culture fuels globalization today and, as it did during the age of imperialism and colonization, helps to reinforce the hegemony of the West. Information technology, as the driving force of economic globalization, has also become a veritable instrument for propagating Western culture. Perhaps by far the most important far-reaching effect of cultural globalization is the commercialization of culture. Production and consumption of cultural goods and services have become commodities, along with the essentials of social life (marriage and family life, religion, work and leisure), that are the crucibles of cultural creation. In a way very similar to economic globalization, most people (and especially the poor) do not experience cultural globalization on terms they have decided for themselves. Culture - whether it is music, food, clothes, art, sport, images of age or youth, masculinity or femininity - has become a product, sold in the market place. As the former chairman of Coca-Cola, Robert Goizueta, said: "People around the world are today connected by brand-name consumer products as much as by anything else." The commercialization of culture has a disturbing impact on people. What once was an element of their way of life becomes a product, rather than something unique they had made to suit their own specific needs and circumstances. At the same time, people are increasingly bombarded with new images, new music, new clothes and new values. The familiar and old are to be discarded. While there was cultural change long before globalization, there is a danger that much will be lost simply because it is not valued by global markets. "In Ghana [West Africa]," says Siapha Kamara, formerly of the Ecumenical Training and Consultancy Centre, "traditional values have been overtaken by Coca-Cola culture. The Michael Jackson style of music and culture is taking over and we don't have the values to cope with it." Consequently, it has been observed, globalized "cultural" industries are taking over traditional forms of creation and dissemination of culture. Local culture's role as a spontaneous and integral part of people's life is eroded and it ceases to serve as the means of constructing societal values, reproducing group identity and building social cohesion. The end result becomes global integration at the expense of local disintegration. As with other markets, the players of the cultural market place are unevenly matched. Global media is increasingly in the hands of a few, large, powerful organizations, as is the production of music and film. For example, by 1997, the MTV television station was available to 280 million households in over 70 countries. Fearing a loss of viewers, local television stations in many African countries have filled their transmissions with cost effective Western produced shows, superficial news broadcasts, quiz shows and, of course, advertisements. Consequently, TV programs all over the world resemble each other more and more and so do the products in the field of music, film industry and publishing companies. The common aspect of the globalized culture is that it pursues the same "one size fits all" ideal: the archetypical middle-class family according to the American model in which consumerism is the norm. The result of this cultural process of homogenization is that a large section of the world's population dreams of living like Cosby & Co. or like the characters in any other stereotype American soap opera. In addition, the dream of living a better life causes thousands of people to move to already overcrowded cities like Lagos, Nigeria's sprawling commercial capital; this city has grown from a population of 18,000 in 1901 to over 12 million in 2001. The majority of these new immigrants end up in slum quarters leading to poverty, pollution and misery. Such a radical undermining of people's existing values and cultures has a corrosive impact on their sense of who they are, what they want and what they respect. It attacks spiritual values and faith traditions. The cumulative effect in Africa is a crisis of cultural confidence, combined with the increased economic uncertainty and crime which global integration often brings. This creates real problems for social solidarity, whether it is at the level of nation, community or family. While it offers shiny new goods as compared to old faded ones, the market offers no replacement for such community solidarity. In conclusion, cultural globalization, or worldwide McDonaldization, destroys diversity and displaces the opportunity to sustain decent human life through an assortment of many different cultures. It is more a consequence of power concentration in the global media and manufacturing companies than the people's own wish to abandon their cultural identity and diversity. [Wole Akande, a former opinion columnist with Ireland's Irish Examiner newspaper, is a freelance journalist. In addition to his work with YellowTimes.org, Wole also maintains http://www.abeokuta.org, a Nigerian community website. He is currently writing a book about Abeokuta's 19th century defensive modernization.] Wole Akande encourages your comments: wakande@YellowTimes.org timbervision (11/13/02; 20:52:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 89569) goldquest http://www.forbes.com/home/2002/05/09/0509cramer.html Cramer's Troubles Could Get Worse Victoria Murphy, 05.09.02, 2:33 PM ET NEW YORK - Loudmouth CNBC commentator James Cramer has one more reason to yell: ....The transcript includes some eyebrow-raising anecdotes relating to Cramer's cozy relationship with CNBC television personalities Maria Bartiromo, David Faber and Mark Haines....In some instances, according to the taped interview, Cramer would call the anchors with a possible news lead on a company after he had already established a position in that firm. Says the trader in the taped interview: "Before he'd call Maria maybe we'd buy five or ten thousand shares of something. You know, the name that he was about to mention. He would position the firm so that when it did come out, it would be the positive or negative short or long, depending on, you know, what information he gave." Black Blade (11/13/02; 20:48:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 89568) Re: Profit Next Quarter - Hydrogen Fuel Economy? The hydrogen economy is a more complicated subject than I can adequately address here. But maybe I can give a condensed short version why it is still likely to be a ways off and the limitations due to the current economic picture and safety concerns - least of which are potential massive catastrophic hydrogen failures (no not the Hindenburg - but close). There are many who claim that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future. However, that will occur only when the formidable technological and financial challenges are overcome in ways sufficient to give them a cost advantage over internal combustion engines. One of the biggest technological difficulties is the lack of a safe, effective way to store hydrogen fuel. Another is reliability — laboratory fuel cells last about one-fifth as long as would be needed to make fuel cells cost-effective. For example, cost is the biggest question. Electricity generated by fuel cells in custom-built cars currently costs thousands of dollars per kilowatt, so its price will have to fall by about a factor of ten before such cars are economically viable. Assuming that fuel storage problems can be solved, Edward Murphy, general manager for downstream operations for the American Petroleum Institute (API), estimated that there is about $1 trillion invested in liquid-fuel infrastructure which will have to be either modified or written off. Of course an alternative would be to use natural gas or to convert some natural gas infrastructure to handle hydrogen gas. That of course would entail two competing fuels that have similar uses and we fall back on cost once again. The infrastructure is costly and we cannot have large numbers of fuel-cell vehicles without adequate fuel available to support them, but we will not be able to create the required infrastructure unless there are significant numbers of fuel-cell vehicles on the roadways. Another primary component of this equation is where that hydrogen will come from. It is easier and more cost effective to crack hydrogen from hydrocarbons than from the extremely tight hydrogen-oxygen bond (water). Even then it is still very expensive. Hydrogen fuel cells work by breaking apart a molecule of two hydrogens into electrons and protons, then sending the electrons through an electric drive motor and recombining the particles with oxygen to produce water. While hydrogen is universally abundant, it's not cheap to get at, since it usually comes attached to other molecules. At the moment, fuel cells are actually energy losers, since it costs more to free the hydrogen than is earned by running hydrogen through fuel cells. Of course government "welfare" could be used much like with subsidies provided to farmers to create ethanol for the supposed purpose of oxygenating gasoline fuels. The energy input causes more "pollution" than if that energy were simply used as gasoline in the first place. It may eventually be possible to extract hydrogen "cheaply" if restrictions and onerous controls were not placed on nuclear power for example. Nuclear energy could be used to crack hydrogen from water molecules and more "cheaply" from hydrocarbon molecules. However, the political realities are such that this will not happen anytime soon. Iceland is one place where hydrogen may be produced "cheaply" as hydrothermal energy is abundant – the advantage of location. That is if one could say that living atop an active volcanic spreading ridge is an "advantage". Anyway, the hydrogen fuel economy is still a long way off. The costs are very high in terms of both constructing the necessary infrastructure and the production of hydrogen. Then there is nearly a trillion barrels of oil reserves that can be extracted and utilized much more cheaply. Rather than concentrate on hydrogen at present, perhaps a gradual buildup of infrastructure first to utilize natural gas as a primary fuel until the safety and cost concerns of hydrogen can be addressed and mitigated. Once those concerns are addressed, then at least the natural gas infrastructure will already be in place and easily converted for hydrogen. - Black Blade goldquest (11/13/02; 20:32:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 89567) I Just Watched 60 minutes on CBS. They had an expose' on IPOs. Interviews with two people that use to help fleece investors. The young man had worked for Cramer & Co. Does anyone know if this is the same Cramer of CNBC that spews forth all of the garbage? TIA Black Blade (11/13/02; 20:08:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 89566) Al-Qaeda Greater Threat to Gulf Oil Supply Than Iraq, Navy Says http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?ptitle=Energy%20News&s1=blk&tp=ad_topright_energy&refer=topfin&T=markets_box.ht&s2=ad_right1_all&bt=ad_position1_energy&box=ad_box_all2&tag=energy&middle=ad_frame2_energy&s=APdKDHBXMQWwtUWFl Snippit:Manama, Bahrain, Nov. 13 (Bloomberg) -- The al-Qaeda terrorist organization is a greater threat to oil shipments from the Persian Gulf than Iraq's military, say U.S. naval officers, who worry that Iraq might attack oil installations in the region if the U.S. invades. U.S. ships and planes can thwart those missiles Iraq has that can reach the world's largest oil terminal in Saudi Arabia as well as tankers in the Gulf, said Captain James Hanna, chief of Staff of the U.S. Naval Force Central Command. ``We are not as concerned about the Iraqi threat to commercial facilities as we are a terrorist threat,'' Hanna said in an interview. ``We know that al-Qaeda is working very hard to hit economic targets.'' Black Blade: The U.S. has issued terrorist alerts to energy companies to be on guard to protect energy infrastructure. Waverider (11/13/02; 20:05:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 89565) Sierra, SilverCollector Sierra - very articulately spoken, as always. I would add that the necessary ingredient to have both morality and classical education flourish is *discipline* - sadly lacking today in so many arenas. Also - I would preface your description of the Latin Amerincans with *credit and confetti* to obtain an equivalent of the North American sheeple - yes? Credit and confetti - "it seduces them, perhaps involuntarily, with a life that is beyond their capability to produce for themselves. Therefore, they are prone to live in imitation and deceiving themselves about what they are and what they want from life. Thus, they are easily manipulated to the benefit of those who would exploit them." Thanks for your thoughts and for sharing your wisdom. Silvercollector ~ I'm not sure that peace is what OBL had in mind on the tape, (or whoever the voice was). My take on this is rather more pessimistic - simplistically stated - misery loves company. I think the approach is more "we don't have what you have, therefore we will attempt to destroy your infrastrure and sense of security so you too may feel what it's like to be in our position." Just my take - not claiming it's correct. Cheers,Waverider goldenboy (11/13/02; 20:00:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 89564) Waverider: Belated thanks for the link; Interestingly, it confirms the 14 times factor from `69 to date, placing fair value gold at around $600.Admittedly, this would be a disappointment. Bound Spirit (11/13/02; 19:59:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 89563) The bottom line of our times Sierra,Outstanding post, I wish there were more posters here like you that are willing to discuss Gold from a moral quality perspective. In fact, my participation in this forum is primarily to exchange views relating to the issues you have advanced. The fact that there aren't more posts like yours, (in a place where you expect them) should serve as a good litmus test of how bereft the US (and I suspect, the world) is regarding an interest in moral issues and philosophy in general. I guess it must be because philosophy seems so abstract and ivory tower to most people that they can't see its relevance to the "fate of nations". They also have no education as you very aptly point out.One of the reasons why I part company with your cyclical prognostications is because of this void in philosophic interest and education. I'm right there with you on your analysis of what ails us, but I can't find my way to finding the mechanism that will return us to, as you put it, "a rebirth of moral qualities". Where will this rebirth come from? A rediscovery of Gold as money may underpin the rebirth of the moral quality of truth, but IMO a rebirth of moral qualities will require a much more comprehensive foundation. Can that foundation be built on science and technology? My guess is that you would say no, even though they have become our modern day clerics to which most look to for an explanation of our world. How about a return to the primacy of organized religion? I won't go into it in detail, but with our education system as it is (ie void of any meaningful moral content) and with the expansion of Darwin by the likes of guys like Steven Pinker, organized religion doesn't stand a chance. Finally, I guess that leaves just human reason to underpin our behavior and fate. In my opinion, our natural inclination towards righteousness, egotism and self-aggrandizement are too inherent to hold the line between reason and rationalization.I believe mankind is on a one way road to nihilism and self-destruction and nothing short of the Second Coming will prevent it. Its not as grim a view as many may think. Fundamentally, I'm a Platonist, i.e. the primacy of the cosmos is found in its all consuming intelligence. Space, time, energy and matter will surely end - there is no such thing as nothing – and the totality of our lives is preserved.Don't take this the wrong way. I'm not siting around waiting for the end – While I'm still part of the empirical world, I have a responsibility to promote the truth as I see it regardless of its long term effectiveness.Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. steady (11/13/02; 19:53:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 89562) 2 for 1 special iraq and salinas price http://www.gold-eagle.com/research/salinasndx.html the link is to more essays penned by mr .salinas price!how come no one mentioned argentias impending 800 million debt default tomorrow? or even more bazar the 18 different currencies circulating inside argentina. each provencial govt is issuing there own! would centianial precious metals honor one of them for gold? i think not! can iraq play the stall game for another 4-5 months untill march arrives and...... well then its to hot to mobilize the troops? can he do it 4-5 lousy months 120-150 days. between now and dec 8 when the summary of the weapons of mass destruction is due is easy. what happens after that may be a lil more complicated to buy more time till the weather gets to hot. bush acts before the weather gets to hot? Black Blade (11/13/02; 19:31:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 89561) Leading US companies 'expect to cut jobs' http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1035873231644&p=1012571727304 Snippit: Executives from some of America's leading companies are expecting to cut jobs and delay investment over the coming year, in the latest sign that the US economic recovery is struggling to gain momentum. Their gloomy sentiment, revealed in a survey by an association of chief executive officers, contrasted with upbeat comments from Paul O'Neill, US Treasury secretary, on Tuesday. Mr O'Neill said that "the objective data don't seem to support the idea that we're going down", and cautioned against expecting large tax cuts in the short term to boost the economy.The Business Roundtable, an association of 150 CEOs whose companies employ over 10m workers, said a survey of its membership showed that 60 per cent were expecting to cut jobs next year against just 11 per cent who said employment in their companies would grow. More than 80 per cent said they expected to hold or cut capital expenditure over the coming year. "This survey raises serious concerns for America's workers, companies and overall economy," said John Dillon, chairman and CEO of International Paper and chairman of The Business Roundtable. He said the state of the economy justified additional fiscal stimulus. "It has nothing to do with mood or lack of confidence. It is to do with the fundamentals of orders, operating rates, profitability and cash-flow," Mr Dillon said. Black Blade: I would hope that O’Neill follows Harvey Pitt out the door political favors not withstanding. Unfortunately this clown will probably be in office until the end. That's politics. His continuation of the strong dollar policy is a disaster. The excesses of the bubble must be wrung out before a recovery can begin. Black Blade (11/13/02; 19:19:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 89560) Bush: Not Satisfied with Economy Growth http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=businessnews&StoryID=1731126 Snippit: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush on Wednesday said he was not satisfied with U.S. economic growth and would discuss ways to stimulate the economy when the new Congress convenes in January. Bush, talking to reporters as he met members of his Cabinet, said he agreed with Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan that the economy was in a rough spot, saying the economy was "bumping along." "Both of us understand that our economy is not nearly as strong as it's going to be," said Bush. Black Blade: Bush and Greenspan. "clowns to the left of me – jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you". Hmmm… Profit Next Quarter (11/13/02; 19:13:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 89559) Oil and the Grip of the Power Elite When I was in first grade in 1976 my science teacher Mr. Urban astounded the class with the revelation that the Oil Embargo and Energy Crisis could be resolved by scientific means. He continued, "All that was needed was a car which used hydrogen as fuel. As a byproduct the exhaust would come from the breakdown of hydrogen molecules and oxygen, H2O, commonly known as water." He stated that the technology to do this was available now and that not only energy problems, but pollution could be prevented if the government and industry adopted this fuel source. As time went on I never forgot Mr. Urban and that day in class and it was to my amazement that I was informed through articles recently of the validity and promise of hydrogen as a fuel source just as my prophetic first grade teacher stated years ago. The dilemma arcording to newspaper "experts" is that to adopt hydrogen as a fuel source an entire infrastructure must be built at a prohibitive cost to government and industry. These disengenuous lackeys attempt to quash the promise of hydrogen fuel cells using this excuse, which I may add did not stop the advent of the automobile and gasoline fuel as well as the internet supehighway. If we built these industries from the ground up and sent a man to the moon we can build a hydrogen infrastructure. It would be money better spent than on the billion dollar killing machines of the Pentagon. The real reason for the stagnation of alternative energy programs since the late seventies is the connection between oil and the grip of the power elite.The West must install or maintain puppet regimes in the Mideast as well as support proxies such as Israel in that region in order to maintain a grip on the free flow of oil which supports a wasteful decadent lifestyle for the American and world consumer. This lifestyle fills the coffers of the power elite and showers corrupt rulers with wealth beyond imagination. By subjugating the people, who are dependent on an energy source which saps their wealth, oppression is supported and keeps the public from challenging governmental authority. The U.S. lost thousands of its citizens in an attack led primarily from Saudia Arabian terrorists and did not demand so much as a solemn apology from the country, since they have the oil and thus the real power. We are supposed to be fighting terrorists, but are threatening and insulting the sovreignty of Iraq in an attempt to provoke a war that will "legitimately" allow us to confiscate their oil reserves. Is this the reason why our people were sacrificed and our Constitution is being shredded? We can plunder the oil of the Mideast without so much as a peep from the American public and our elected officials. Our only Governmental dissentor, Paul Wellstone, died in an "accidental" plane crash two miles passed where the landing strip was, and was in a plane that had no black box, distress call, or mechanical problems. It was found burned through to the tail section. It was amazing that the Anthrax letters were aimed at our top Democratic opposition and the Anthrax used was reported to be from a government lab. Any terrorism suspect can be detained Gestapo-like without legal counsel or the admission that the person is being held. We have had planes crash which are likely terrorist acts, but are told by the governement countless lies until the public tires and directs its attention elsewhere so that the economy will not be affected. Where have our freedoms gone? Where is our outrage? We have the wealthiest group of men ever in power running things, they where chosen by the partisan Supreme Court, not elected to lead. One is always in a bunker, but WE should all go about "business as usual." These men come primarily from big oil and they will support the hegemony of oil over the lives of countless Americans in a heart beat. With the winning of the Congress this oil puppet regime has total domination and will ensure the promulgation of oil supremacy to the last drop drilled and the last drop of blood shed.Why is our government following this insane policy when a first grade teacher could find the solution almost three decades ago? Our government should put into effect a vigorous adaptation to hydrogen fuel as a result of the barbarous acts of 9-11, thus freeing the land from the choking grip of big oil and corporate greed and environmental decimation. It is time we threw off the yoke of energy dependency on Middle East oil. This will put people back to work and put the US at the forefront of a global industry which will eclipse the previous economic revolutions in a renaissance Americana. It will also free the country from supporting currupt dictatorships which install hatred for our country and people, who are accomplices by omission. We can then afford to punish the true perpetrators of this crime. The Saudis and their regime of hate. We have allowed them to fatten and swell with the sweat of our toil and the technology of our corporations. If we want to spill blood let's get the right people, not Iraqi civilians, however detestable their leader may be. If we free our selves from oil, the Middle East can once again become a land of Bedoin nomads free from the evil wealth and corruption of the West. The US can let the Arabs and Israel kill each other to the last man and begin work on rebuilding the fabric of our nation which has been torn to shreds by war, racism, violence, economic decline and poverty. But this will not happen. Because the gears of power are lubricated with blood and oil. The oil magnate will gladly send the flower of our youth off to die than lose the black fortune they possess. One can only hope for the best and prepare for the worst since the elite will not tolerate a golden age free of oil. Alternative investments (Gold etc.) may be in order. Horatio (11/13/02; 18:53:55MT - usagold.com msg#: 89558) Metals Gold gets smacked today,Silver next week....according to the 28 year charts.......Then its OFF TO THE RACES.... Hang in there this is the bottom.....Do not get spooked !! One more week !!!! Black Blade (11/13/02; 18:41:42MT - usagold.com msg#: 89557) New Survey Of Top Ceos Reveals Fragile Economic Outlook http://www.brt.org/press.cfm/769 Snippit:(Washington D.C.) – A majority of The Business Roundtable (BRT) members, comprised of America's leading CEOs, are expecting weak GDP growth, declining employment and flat capital spending in 2003, according to a survey that gives new impetus to the critical need for an economic growth plan to boost consumer confidence and business spending. The Business Roundtable's survey of its 150 members, which cross all sectors of the economy, marks the first time that the CEOs of America's top corporations have been surveyed about their economic expectations for the year ahead. 60 percent of CEOs expect their company's employment to drop in 2003; 28 percent expect it to remain the same; and 11 percent expect employment growth. 57 percent of CEOs expect their U.S. capital expenditures in 2003 to be the same as 2002 levels, while 24 percent expect a decline. Only 19 percent expect higher capital spending. "Our nation's economic recovery has not been strong or sustained, and the BRT's survey shows that CEOs do not expect the situation will improve significantly in 2003," Dillon said.Black Blade: The "economic recovery" looks like it will come up short once again. In a word – "grim". silvercollector (11/13/02; 18:31:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 89556) Sierra Good job. Gold...the rebirth of morality...get you some. Aristotle (11/13/02; 17:49:49MT - usagold.com msg#: 89555) Working the schematic Today's fall on the COMEX Gold price is a good example about how easy it is to "work" elements of the schematic I laid out last month. You just sieze upon some important-sounding yet fundamentally irrelevant news that comes along once in awhile (such as the latest acceptance of U.N. terms by Iraq) to cut the legs out from under the feeble longs. It sure doesn't take much to run the little stop-losses like falling dominoes.It doesn't take rocket science to see that Gold is trending higher with unstoppable conviction, but leverage makes those longs stagger around like drunks with vision impaired beyond the tip of their own nose.I can't spell it out any easier than this. You'll live by the Metal or die by the leverage. Your choice.Thanks again for making it easy on my partners and me to add real Gold quite cheaply to our growing piles!Gold. Get you some. --- Aristotle Buena Fe (11/13/02; 17:29:24MT - usagold.com msg#: 89554) Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 17:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 89552) ........The rediscovery of gold which is going on in the world, will foster the rediscovery of the very practical necessity of moral qualities. .........Kudos SM, I BELIEVE THIS IS A "HALL-OF-FAME'R"Thanks for sharing of your wealth! Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 17:15:13MT - usagold.com msg#: 89553) Willo the Warthog: Mexico is also blocked from Murabitun I just discovered this, but was able to print out Vadillo's essay on gold - very good, incidentally - by going to the cache on google. But, I suspect, that will not last.Gold fosters peace and collaboration, it is the key to defusing the conflict with Islam, so vitally important. Again, gold is related to moral qualities!Sierra Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 17:05:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 89552) The bottom line for our times.... It all boils down to MORAL QUALITIES.Today's education, throughout the West, disregards the classic approach to education: instilling moral qualities. Perhaps it began with John Dewey and his dismal effects upon the educational system of the U.S. Perhaps it began earlier. Evils have a genealogy, as well as men. Look at the pathetic quality or lack of it, in the nation's leaders, and you will see the final summing-up of Dewey and his program to convert the US into a nation of sheep who "adapt" - the keystone of deweyism.Up to the middle 1800's, reading Homer's "Iliad" was required in all students' curriculum, at an early age: the imbibing of the heroic, at the very fount, the "Iliad", was indispensable. This had been the traditional course of studies since the VII century B.C. I think it was King Pisistratus of Athens, who caused Homer to be written down. Writing had come into use, not long before. So, the "Iliad" with its inspiring acts of heroism, was the fundamental course of studies for boys and girls, for 2,500 years - perhaps with some interval during which "pagan" writers were banned by the Western Church.It is the moral qualities (or their absence) which determine the fate of nations.Independence, self-reliance, desire for truthfulness, a dislike for pretending...I could go on. These are the basic qualitites for the creation of a prosperous nation. The ancient Persian basis for education was: "Tell the TRUTH, shoot arrows straight, and ride a horse."The US has lost much, but there remains, and will remain, a remnant of virtues within the soul of the American people. There is to be found that amazing spring of inventiveness that wells-up in the most unexpected places.It remains latent, somewhat dormant at present. It will be called up into life, in the hard times ahead.The US has squandered its productive infrastructure, because it gave up the moral qualities requisite for keeping it and fostering its growth. The productive infrastructure has moved to China, where 1.2 billion people have acquired and continue to acquire the technology - from the West, especially the US, with its open Universities, where all the world can come to learn precious technological knowledge, in return for a meagre payment. Will American students ever go to China to learn? Never! Never will the Chinese allow foreign nations to learn what new knowledge it acquires! That is not the Chinese way. Their secrets were painfully stolen from them: porcelain, gun-powder, the compass, SILK production and manufactures, just to name a few. They will not give up their precious knowledge, for a modest university fee!Soon the US will pass to the second rank in the world, as far as production is concerned. What will it have to sell to the world, in exchange for the OIL it desperately needs? However, after the dust settles past the coming terrible crisis, I believe that American ingenuity will experience a rebirth, along with a rebirth in the moral qualities, as a result of the ordeal which is ahead. What will it take? It will take living as sparely as the coolies, for a time, while capital is re-built.The program will be: a singleminded determination to produce, produce and produce! All silly obstacles (such as environmentalism and the Welfare State) will be cast overboard, in the life-or-death struggle to re-industrialize.I am afraid it may take a benevolent dictatorship in the US, to achieve this rebirth of US productive might. Democracy and fiat-money are twin brothers. They have failed: all the evidence proves it. I regret displeasing with this statement, but that's the way I see things.Latin America: it is composed of people who lack a "heroic tradition". If left alone, they can live happily, at their own pace and satisfied with their own objectives in life. Unfortunately, the faustian world of the present does not leave such people in peace. It seduces them, perhaps involuntarily, with a life that is beyond their capability to produce for themselves. Therefore, they are prone to live in imitation and deceiving themselves about what they are and what they want from life. Thus, they are easily manipulated to the benefit of those who would exploit them.That is their sad destiny, until their character changes, and that is centuries in the future. The rediscovery of gold which is going on in the world, will foster the rediscovery of the very practical necessity of moral qualities. Watch the progress of gold, and relate it to what is going to take place in the realm of morality. I predict: long skirts back in fashion, a phenomenon which may seem silly and quite removed from gold - but, there will be a cause and effect taking place in moral qualities. Deep respect for the breadwinner in the family is another thing that will come about. Many changes that will only be clear in their origin, to discriminating minds.How many of the nation's leaders are well-read, even authors? A return to the fundamentals of classic education, will take place, as the nation faces wrenching problems that can only be addressed by men who have a knowledge of the past. Technology is excellent, but cannot sustain a nation without moral qualities. Not even in warfare.That is what I see coming. Sorry to extend myself so much!Sierra silvercollector (11/13/02; 16:52:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 89551) Time to open a monster can of worms I'm a somewhat shocked that no one today has mentioned anything about this so called OBL tape. I'm not sure if it matters if the voice is of OBL or not, the message as the Globe and Mail accurately describes is chilling. I have read this numerous times today and one segment strikes me in an odd way.""For how long will fear, massacres, destruction, exile, orphanhood and widowhood be our lot, while security, stability and joy remain your domain alone?"It is high time that equality be established to this effect."I am not a historian but I am sure it would be pointless to point fingers and claim "you started it". I wonder if anyone wants to stick their neck out and discuss the greater issue at hand. It almost seems like a 'we' versus 'they' war; and it gets larger year by year. Why can't 'we' and 'they' get along? What is the fundamental problem? Religion? History? Oil?I'd like to ask Ari what he thinks. A few weeks ago he mentioned what's wrong "with paying for the oil?" It's theirs is it not?Forgive me for being obtusely ignorant but the statement of"It is high time that equality be established to this effect" sounds like an offer of peace.I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything said or done, present or past, just trying to get a better handle on the bigger picture.Thanks. WilloTheWarthog (11/13/02; 16:49:05MT - usagold.com msg#: 89550) The Encoded Pattern - White Paper from Murabitun http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:kxA210KZ2CEC:www.murabitun.org/pdf/encodedpattern.pdf+encodedpattern.pdf&hl=es&ie=UTF-8 I can no longer access this site from my country, it has been blocked; thus the URL shown accesses through the Google cache mechanism. Interesting thoughts from a Muslim scholar, excerpt below:"WHAT IS GERMANE to this topic is not the culpability of Monsanto or Genetech orDuPont, or even specifically the dangers of organochlorines and their role as hormone imitators. We could have quite as well looked at organophosphates, also used in agriculturalchemicals, and now linked to the spread of BSE in British beef. It is more accurate to identify the false money as the common factor, even if we were to move from farmingaltogether to manufacturing. Manufacturing would also bring into focus the importance ofthe revival of the Guilds, and how they will work in our electronic age. The guilds in Islamare the alternative to the corporate structure that imposes a system of a limited number ofemployers with the vast majority of people being relegated to being employees or, the doomof all dooms, unemployed. The importance of the Guilds takes its place alongside the Open Market, usury-free contracts and the gold and silver coins that were briefly introduced through the work of Sidi Umar Vadillo. In emphasizing the importance of the coins, it should be seen that they, having intrinsic value, are not dependent on a `state' to give them asymbolic value. Likewise, the Khalif, the essential and noticeably absent locus for theleadership of the greater community of the Muslims is not a king or president, but anentrusted and noble caretaker whose responsibility with regard to the coins is to guarantee thattheir weights and measures are correct, for which he is accountable by the Shari'a. Here againwe see the matter returning to the Shari'a as the preserved pattern for social health.Nevertheless, we are not a people with a dialectic, however convincing the argument may be. Rather we are a people of obedience and trust." Golden Bear (11/13/02; 16:35:17MT - usagold.com msg#: 89549) Iraq.... Some interesting links on the US government's double standards regarding foreign policy...US depleted uranium shells in Iraqhttp://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtmlUS Double Standards in War on Terrorhttp://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0211/S00065.htmBroken promises made to Afghanistan - dropped like a hot potatohttp://www.salon.com/news/wire/2002/11/12/afghan_promises/index.html-----------------If anyone believes that Bush is sending US sons and daughters into Iraq to protect the world from Saddam, then I've got some swampland to sell you... silvercollector (11/13/02; 16:32:04MT - usagold.com msg#: 89548) Experts:Voice on tape is OBL http://globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021113/wbinl1113/Front/homeBN/breakingnews silvercollector (11/13/02; 16:30:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 89547) Text of supposed OBL tape http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/front/RTGAM/20021113/wtext1113/Front/homeBN/breakingnews Text of the statement, which U.S. experts say is most likely by Osama bin-Laden, aired on al-Jazeera television and translated by Agence France-Presse"To the peoples of the countries allied to the iniquitous American government:"The road to salvation begins with the end of aggression. It is only justice to give back the same."What has happened since the conquests of New York and Washington up until now — like the operations on Germans in Tunisia, the explosion of the French tanker in Yemen, on the French in Karachi, the operations against the [U.S.] Marines in Failaka [Kuwait], on Australians and Britons in the explosions in Bali, as well as the recent hostage-taking in Moscow and other operations here and there — were nothing but the response of Muslims eager to defend their religion and respond to the order of God and their Prophet."What Bush, the pharoah of the century, did by murdering our children in Iraq and what Israel, the ally of America, did in bombing houses of the elderly, women and children in Palestine, using American planes, was enough for the wise among your leaders to distance themselves from this criminal gang."Our people in Palestine have been massacred and subjected to the worst of suffering for nearly a century."If we defend our people in Palestine, the world gets agitated and coalesces against Muslims under the cover of the war against terrorism, unjustly and in a false way."Do your governments not know that the clique in the White House is made up of the greatest murderers of the century?"Rumsfeld is the butcher of Vietnam who has killed more than two million people."Cheney and Powell have murdered and destroyed in Baghdad more than did Houlagou [in reference to a 13th century Mongol who conquered the city]."Why did your governments ally themselves with America to attack us in Afghanistan, and I cite in particular Great Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Australia."Australia was warned about its participation in Afghanistan and its ignoble contribution to the separation of East Timor. But it ignored this warning until it was awakened by the echoes of explosions in Bali. Its government subsequently pretended, falsely, that its citizens were not targeted."If you suffer to see your [people] killed and those of your allies in Tunisia, in Karachi, in Failaka, Bali and Amman, remember our [people] killed among the children of Palestine, in Iraq. Remember our dead in Afghanistan."As you look at your dead in Moscow, also recall ours in Chechnya."For how long will fear, massacres, destruction, exile, orphanhood and widowhood be our lot, while security, stability and joy remain your domain alone?"It is high time that equality be established to this effect."As you assassinate, so will you be, and as you bomb so will you likewise be."So the Muslim nation begins to attack you with its children, who are committed before God to continue the jihad, by word and by the sword, to establish justice and eradicate injustice, for as long as their hearts continue to beat."Finally, we pray to God to aid us that His religion might triumph, and pursue the jihad unto death, so as to merit His mercy." WilloTheWarthog (11/13/02; 16:26:06MT - usagold.com msg#: 89546) Beyond Economic Man (Title of article in link) http://www.bogvaerker.dk/beyond.html Two quotes from this paper by Umar Ibrahim Vadillo will give you the general idea:"We declare the end of economics based on two affirmations: commerce without usury, and government without state. We are calling for a free man who is free to behave within our Law. We will create a differently shaped society."<snip>"All business today are usurious on their bases because they all are forced to deal with usurious paper-money, which is banking-money. He knows that the bank for instance is no good, but he thinks he has no better choice. He works for the state, although he knows the state is criminal. Even the businessman profiting within the usurious frame is a slave. All these people have failed to understand the nature of dunya and they are slaves of it. The way out lies in Islam. We need the most pure Islam. It is, by Allah, in the hands of the Muslims. The Jihad of our time is to abolish usury. This is what we, the Murabitun, are doing. This is the easy way and the path of success. Success belongs to Allah."Anybody seen this stuff on CNN? WilloTheWarthog (11/13/02; 16:19:30MT - usagold.com msg#: 89545) Goals of Radical Islam http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6588/rkhaliphate.html Two things in particular strike me about this article:1. The importance Turkey might play in the overall structure of a new Islamic system, and how the recent elections there support this view; 2. The final goal would have to be the destruction of the Western banking and economic systems.The launch of the Islamic Dinar and Dirham in the UAE during November of last year also confirms this view. glennh10 (11/13/02; 16:05:23MT - usagold.com msg#: 89544) FAME Larry Parks Financial Sense Online Interview http://www.netcastdaily.com/1experts/exp110902.ram Larry Parks is the Executive Director for FAME (Foundation for the Advancement of Monetary Education). (http://www.FAME.org)This RealPlayer interview about the threat and fraudulence of fiat money is excellent and recommended:http://www.netcastdaily.com/1experts/exp110902.ram sourdough (11/13/02; 15:17:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 89543) CCP followup We Canadians should/need a lobby organization to try and influence public opinion to demand the CPP hold physical gold regardless/because off the decision of government to sell are gold reserves.Any volunteers to head it up??Good for the industry, the country, and the individual retiree. Just give me my share in 10 years in lieu of cash. barnaclebob (11/13/02; 15:08:08MT - usagold.com msg#: 89542) Economic Insanity: Is today Japan 1992? http://207.44.150.6/goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525 From 56 BC:...But meanwhile, before the empire of Rome became coextensive with Alexander's, the most immediate and decisive effect of the universal enthusiasm was to impel men to incur the most impossible obligations. Nearly every one was at once both creditor and debtor; men lent one another any little money they possessed, and borrowed again whenever they were in difficulties. Italian society had become an inextricable labyrinth of debit and credit, through the system of Syngraphae or letters of credit, which were negotiated in the same way as securities and bills of exchange today, because the scarcity of capital and the frequent oscillations in prices would have made it ruinous for them to be redeemed too frequently. Those who were in need of money attempted to sell to some financier the claims they had on other persons, and the financier would give cash payment, of course with a proportionate discount according to the prospects of the debt, the needs of the creditor and the condition of the money market... The Greatness and Decline of Rome, Guglielmo Ferrero, Vol. II, pg. 57.The Romans used derivatives also! sourdough (11/13/02; 14:46:20MT - usagold.com msg#: 89541) My fellow Canadians, first they sell our gold then this, what`s wrong with this picture? The best investment the CPP could make is physical gold, how much did they lose, 2.5 billion wasn`t it?Well, I guess it keeps our dollar down (cdn) and keeps everybody working, but it just doesn`t seem right. Not to worry, JP MORGAN WILL MAKE IT BACK FOR US,Maybe they can sell our CCP some gold derivatives, unfortuantely they will likely be shorts.news release:FOR: CANADA PENSION PLAN INVESTMENT BOARDNOVEMBER 13, 2002 - 16:22 ESTCPP Investment Board Expands Investments To OffsetVolatile StocksTORONTO, ONTARIO--The CPP Investment Board announced today the commitment of almost half a billion dollars to three private equity funds as it continues to invest in assets that are alternatives to volatile stock markets. The latest commitments bring to almost $5 billion the total to date that will be drawn down for actual investment in private companies over the next several years. To date, $1.1 billion has been invested in private equities and real estate, compared with $15.8 billion in public equities. The long-term goal is to invest up to 15 percent of total equity assets in alternative investments such as private equity, real estate and infrastructure assets. The latest commitments are: * US$100 million to JP Morgan Partners Global Investors Fund, sponsored by JP Morgan Partners, the private equity arm of JP Morgan Chase & Company, a global financial services firm headquartered in New York. JP Morgan Partners focuses on a broadly diversified portfolio ranging from venture capital, growth equity to mid-market buyouts on a global basis, from its eight offices around the world. JP Morgan Chase and predecessor entities have invested $11.2 billion in mid-market buyouts over the last 18 years. The Fund's investment program is expected to include up to US$8 billion of capital of which up to US$6.25 billion is expected to be provided by JP Morgan Chase. * Up to US$125 million to Thomas Weisel Global Growth Partners II, a fund of funds sponsored by Thomas Weisel Partners, an investment and merchant bank focused on the growth sectors of the U.S. economy. The Fund is comprised of three investment vehicles that will invest in venture capital through top-tier established funds, promising emerging funds and secondary purchases, respectively. * US$81 million to a US$162 million secondary portfolio acquisition with Paul Capital Partners, a U.S. private equity firm and strategic partner of the CPP Investment Board. The portfolio consists of 16 private equity partnership interests, primarily in the buyout sector, and will be managed by Paul Capital Partners. To date, C$4.9 billion has been committed to 33 limited partnerships managed by 28 private equity firms. The CPP Investment Board's assets are primarily invested in funds that replicate stock indexes for Canadian, U.S. and non-North American publicly traded equities. Private equity is expected to produce higher returns than public equity over the long term. Created in December 1997, the CPP Investment Board is a crown corporation that invests funds not needed by the Canada Pension Plan to pay current pensions. Cash flows are invested in equities to balance the bond portfolio owned by the Canada Pension Plan. By increasing the long-term value of funds, the CPP Investment Board will help the Plan to keep its pension promise to Canadians. Located in Toronto, the CPP Investment Board is governed and managed independently of the Canada Pension Plan and at arm's length from governments. -30-FOR FURTHER INFORMATION PLEASE CONTACT:CPP Investment BoardMark WeisdorfVice President - Private Market Investments416-868-1538Web site: www.cppib.ca CoBra(too) (11/13/02; 14:38:01MT - usagold.com msg#: 89540) Didn't Work - Tried to paste GWB looking through capped binoculars ... hee hee ... ElGordo (11/13/02; 14:22:58MT - usagold.com msg#: 89539) They should have bought some PMs Trenton, New Jersey, Nov. 13 (Bloomberg) -- New Jersey plans to remove the head of its pension management division after state funds lost more than $6 billion last quarter and $20 billion over the last three years, people familiar with the matter said. The top manager in the Division of Investment, Steven Kornrumpf, would cease overseeing $56 billion in pension funds and move to a new government job until he takes early retirement on June 30, the people said. Lawyers were negotiating an agreement, which would be reached as early as today, the people said. Kornrumpf, 57, would not comment. Kornrumpf's departure will complete a takeover of pension fund management by Democratic Governor James McGreevey, who's made the pension fund's returns a political issue since taking office in January. McGreevey has said he's concerned the state may have to contribute more than $1 billion in tax money to the funds next year if performance doesn't improve. ``Many other state pension funds have had losses because they have similar investment strategies as New Jersey's,'' said Parry Young, an author of a Standard & Poor's analysis titled ``Public Pension Funds Under Stress.'' Some states ``are re-evaluating how they invest as well,'' Young said. New Jersey pension funds lost $20 billion, or 24 percent, during the past three years. Although public pension funds across the U.S. have lost a median of about 3 percent annually for the past three years, according to Wilshire Associates, some states have fared worse. CoBra(too) (11/13/02; 14:15:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 89538) "Much Ado About Nothing" - Well, As You Like It - Alan may not like it - the fact that a desert desperado can move markets more easily than the (be-?)knighted Mr. G. (Sir Gresham - that's not wither you), only to be or not to be in OIL - that is the question!Well, the one day wonder bought some time for the beleagered slime of (out of) money center banks of the bankrupt capital of financial crime. What a useful ploy this Saddam guy really is! Maenneken Piss! Sorry, still can't believe the naive reaction of capital markets to the forseen distraction of Saddam's (in-)action.Look, looksee, see no nuke hee, hee ... cb(2) Saddam Belgian (11/13/02; 14:12:41MT - usagold.com msg#: 89537) @ Sierra Madre Yes Sir, that's correct...H.Salinas was the first to issue the warning and suggest action against all-embracing export(ism) for US$, without enough (proportional) internal trade. But...With China's latest changes (leaders and appel for capitalism) we have 1,2 Billion people, rapidly waking up and desiring to participate on consumption instead of sterile exports for confetti ! Increasing domestic trade with less concentration on $-exports, result in higher export prices, causing inflationary troubles for the US$.Because China is surrounded by very potential trading partners, also wanting to escape dollar-hegemony. I don't see this opportunity in the same degree for latinam, less able to challenge the US$ ?@ Sector : Thanks for further answer on DIVG.BIS : Gold derivatives (futures) up 37% (01/02) to 279 Billion $ = 27.000 TONNES of Gold !!! As Richebacher says :Almost the total amount of official global Gold reserves (+/- 30.000 tonnes) is derivatized or supposedly assured !?Is this the answer on the 1.500/1.800 tonnes, daily, unofficial, turnover at LBMA/COMEX/TOCOM ?I'm asking myself, why the almost total stash of monetary Gold must be protected with derivatives ? This doesn't make sense. Or am I asking the wrong question ? I surely must. RobotGuy (11/13/02; 13:57:28MT - usagold.com msg#: 89536) Big News(what people perceive as big news anyway) V.S. Gold discussion has always gone hand in hand I truly believe that within the past two years, more people have come to believe more strongly that precious metals are indeed a safe haven for thier investments. Subtle clues would suggest that a good percentage of the investing population view these most recent events as not overly forthcoming of the eventual mayhem that must indeed occur(in their minds)in order to boost our economy. Personally, I don't think this impending event is going to be North America's economic saviour, in fact, I believe this event may cause more damage to an already miserable state here at home. Another personal opinion,.. tape aired in Al-Jazeer was an audiotape, I don't believe Bin Laden is still alive. Intelligence officials have stated that it is possible that a voice modulator could disguise another person's voice and make the audio quite effective and difficult to separate from the real McCoy. I'm not sure where it's leading, but I guess the future will tell.Cheers! I think.RobotGuy. ElGordo (11/13/02; 13:33:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 89535) @Mikal You were right on! Reuters now reporting that Turkeysays there were no Iraq orders for antidote!Incredible. Pure disinformation from our friends atthe NY Times. Sounds like the disinformation aboutbabies being thrown out of incubators back in 1990.You have a great sense of smell! The Hoople (11/13/02; 13:31:33MT - usagold.com msg#: 89534) Newmont slides one by ... This might be off-topic today, that is, it's about gold. From FT 11/13/02: Newmont shares hit despite 3Q dataSnippet:"The company said the buy-back of 270,000 hedged ounces alone cost it $13m, equal to more than half ot its third-quarter profit. The remaining hedge, 5.8m ounces, is about 10 month-s worth of production. With higher gold prices, the mark-to-market valuation of the hedges is negative $412m."Comment: A puny rise in POG creates a $412 million hedge book loss? Remember back when mark-to-market was mandated and we were saying how this would cause implosions? Wouldn't a 412 million loss be ruinous before we ever get to $400 or $1,000 POG? And over half the 3rd quarter profit wiped out by buy-backs? Can't imagine the fear and loathing going on around BB's and "derivative" mines. (The word hedge is too absurd to use with a straight face.) Mr Gresham (11/13/02; 13:24:09MT - usagold.com msg#: 89533) Cavan Man http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/HolyGrail/grail-18.html Yes, and with the presence of a genuine shrubber here (link above), we are reminded of the potential benefit of always considering our alternatives, aren't we? Staying home, with a fine shrubbery to admire, certainly beats the pants off embarking upon the many difficulties of a Quest.I thank you once again for your timely thoughts. Rock (11/13/02; 13:05:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 89532) Gold down today.... What me worry? When I checked the price of Gold today after getting back from the house of pain (gym) I was surprised but not taken back by the POG. Gold is such a powerful force there will always be large fluctuations. Just as the POG goes down one day it will spike favorably another day but you all know that. So I don't fret or lose confidence in my PM investment because I'm in for the long haul and when I retire in 20 years I know gold will be much higher than it is today, its that simple. One of the enjoyments I have discovered about owning gold is the ride, watching the markets and laughing at the talking heads. Hot news off the press.... Saddam is going to allow UN Inspectors, what a man of peace! NOT! Now for the cat and mouse game. David Hackworth said last night that it wouldn't be hard for Sadaam to hide a few refrigerator trucks. Interesting times.Rock Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 12:59:51MT - usagold.com msg#: 89531) Belgian: most recent article by Salinas Price http://www.plata.com.mx "Empowering the internal market".snippit:I have been harping for seven years on the fact that Mexico has been following a policy which places its center of gravity outside its borders, pursuing exports as the objective of development. ******The first and most important condition towards empowering the internal market, is to endow it with a money of quality. All the rest, with regard to this excellent objective, will come about spontaneously. GratefulForGold (11/13/02; 12:48:00MT - usagold.com msg#: 89530) Gee, Gold dived again today! Coincidence? I think not.(?)I'm remembering my musings recently (#89377) about how gold tanks after TPTB (in this case, JPM "initiating coverage" of some gold stocks) positively mentions PMs in the general media. Seems to have happened again today. Oh, I forgot, today's reason was Iraq letting in the UN inspectors. Silly me.(Of course, I know it's only daily manipulations and machinations, but it still fascinates me sometimes...like a lava lamp on speed).I am assuming that PM physical and stocks will resume their upward march shortly. Tough little soldiers (and I bet God IS on their side)! Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 12:45:34MT - usagold.com msg#: 89529) Belgian: (Ref. your link @ #89496) Henry Liu must have been reading... Hugo Salinas Price's articles in English, some posted several years ago, i.e. "Why are the Americans Smiling?" and "What killed Argentina?" at www.plata.com.mxMr.Liu elaborates upon the theme very skillfully, and adds the possibility that China may well do without the dollar and launch its own use of the Yuan for payment of its exports - an idea that sounds OK to me, and would be revolutionary for Asia, breaking the imperialistic bonds it has struggled under for a couple of centuries.But, the Mexican Salinas Price said it first: the dollar as reserve currency for the rest of the world, is a TAX (sic) on the rest of the world.Sierra Tevye (11/13/02; 12:31:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 89528) momentary mid-east topic It would be better if Iraq was back page news. Regardless of the topic: inspectors vs saber rattling vs WMD vs vs.What should be front page news is how the west plus japan, china, india are fulfilling their aid promises to afganistan. We should be rebuilding roads, sewers, water lines, schools, parks, farms, orchards etc etc, yes even government buildings, oil piplines and gold mines. The rebuilding means productive jobs: for afgans and for western manufacturers and engineers. Send in the military construction brigades. Send our new illustrious nobel laureate JimmyCarter to lead a Habitat for Humanity brigade. The oil rich arabs and Islamic world in general will have to contribute and cooperate. And if some of the contribution is in gold dinars, so much the better.I know that the problems are all horendously complex and that I'm making a simplistic statement. But the west stands a lot better chance of making friends in the Islamic world (if its possible at all) by vociferously rebuilding than by continually front paging the arab's blackest sheep. Thanks for allowing the rant.Tevye Sierra Madre (11/13/02; 12:20:16MT - usagold.com msg#: 89527) Congratulations Skydog!!! It warms my heart to hear good news such as yours.You have to thank mainly yourself, your willingness to listen and think, and your resolution to act upon your convictions, for having saved yourself from the meltdown of the Nasdaq, and gotten into gold at such a propitious moment. Good for you!I see gold is down just now. Never mind the passing turbulence. Sit back, relax and enjoy the wonderful ride ahead.Sierra Mr Gresham (11/13/02; 12:17:15MT - usagold.com msg#: 89526) "It's only business" Guess I haven't gotten too excited about any of this Iraq stuff -- saved me lots of news-watching, and I've got enough to deal with myself. Just pop in the Godfather or Goodfellas, and you've got most of it. Forget the nation and freedom and leader stuff. Falling out between two organized crime families over territories.Putin sounds worried, but Russia's always been on the Islam frontier, and maybe it's "just business" for him, too. Dunno.Doubt that Osama is on that wavelength however; he's recruiting for an end-run around the whole current game, and when you leave enough wanna-be players outside, they will let someone like that front-run for them. What have they got to lose by crashing the Dollar? Pick up the pieces and there's enough open territory for lots of new smaller players. Uncle Buck hasn't got much juice left to buy them off with anymore. a nation of one (11/13/02; 12:13:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 89525) when prices drop Hold steady, my friends. What matters is the outcome, not the moment-to-moment. GratefulForGold (11/13/02; 11:51:45MT - usagold.com msg#: 89524) NEMO me impune lacessit (#89520) If the most negative outcome (for Bush) of the "Iraq-event" comes to pass as you speculate, I would suspect that a "terrorist-event" will mobilize the US. We moved from bin Laden to Hussein. Who's next? Color me cynical. A Canadian (11/13/02; 11:43:50MT - usagold.com msg#: 89523) THANKS SADDAM ! You're my homey! Was sure that the cheap aquisition window was about to be slammed shut. Ordered 2 more ozs 1 hr ago. Now my fortress is prettier than ever. Why the lemmings perceive a relationship between Saddam and POG is beyond me but I'll take it. (Its supply<demand twits.) Now if only Bintalkin can keep his hairy yap shut till I can free up some more confetti.... Buena Fe (11/13/02; 11:16:43MT - usagold.com msg#: 89522) bye bye 7, hello 8 To sound like a stuck record, "THERE WILL BE NO WAR WITH IRAQ"!This is SO BULLISH for gold and bearish for the $/banking cartel I can hardily contain my excitement.Don't be fooled by short-term price action, Mike Bolser's T* is closer than ever! (GO GATA GO)Cheers to all FORUM reads/posters, you are a magnificent bunch! We are crappling with the greatest most significant economic changes in nearly a century, it's not supposed to be easy!GO GOLD (and silver) Zhisheng (11/13/02; 11:08:54MT - usagold.com msg#: 89521) and Prosperity. Sage obervations Cometose: there is no great joy in Bushville. But this had to be expected, and the next move prepared in advance.Wall Streets reaction and that of the yellow metal already seem to have relaxed somewhat. NEMO me impune lacessit (11/13/02; 10:46:19MT - usagold.com msg#: 89520) IRAQ The most negative outcome for Bush, of the "Iraq-event", must be: Sadam say yes to inspections. The inspectors do not find anything. UN and Europe-nations are pleased.Bush will have huge costs of mobilizing troops and equipment – without having no further oil-control and no incitement to get rid of Sadam. Sadam will the have complied with UN-resolutions and can start selling oil again. Weapons are always possible to buy on world market and we start all over again.NEMO Cometose (11/13/02; 10:25:53MT - usagold.com msg#: 89519) Peace THe celebration will not last long.....The bankers are pissed and so is the administration...NO help in this nonexistent war to rebuild perception , wave the flag and jumpstart the economy....on a wing and a prayer....empty words...No chance to inhibit the inevitable .....No chance to detain GOLD in its accumulation and in its ascent.....NO chance to protect the GOLD HEDGED BANKS........Ironic that IRAQ decided to announce its compliance in the middle of Alan Greenspan's TESTIMONY....I'm laughing ... Truthcaster (11/13/02; 10:18:35MT - usagold.com msg#: 89518) UPDATE ON GOLD Kitco is now showing spot gold down 6.40 OUCH!! goldquest (11/13/02; 10:16:18MT - usagold.com msg#: 89517) In a Couple of Hours it will be old news. Gold will recover most of the loss before the weekend. Take advantage, it's still cheap! CoBra(too) (11/13/02; 10:06:10MT - usagold.com msg#: 89516) Real Power ... Is when Wall Street listens to Saddam Hussein and neglectsSir Alan's sage words.The difference is no-one understands Al, while all seem to understand Saddam. No immediate war against Iraq - has anybody thought otherwise? Can you say "FARCE"? - cb2 Truthcaster (11/13/02; 10:04:44MT - usagold.com msg#: 89515) IRAQ ACCEPTS UN RESOLUTION Bloomberg is reporting that Iraq has acceptedthe UN resolution sending Stocks higher. The Dow is nowup over 100 points +and Oil and Gold are plunging on the other handIt looks like gold is down over 4 bucks. And OilIs down almost a dollar Cometose (11/13/02; 10:02:11MT - usagold.com msg#: 89514) STOCK MARKETS Looks like someone forgot their prozac this morning...as the trading on the Stock exchanges are showing some wild swings.....If you can keep your head while all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you ........Rudyard KiplingIt looks like the VOLATILITY was let out of its cage this morning .....It's to be expected ....You'ld think that a .5 point drop in interest rates would have been recieved better....Seems like the investing world out there is more in tune with reality (thank GOD for the information age and the internet) than the perception which the Wall Street spinmeisters ( the pin is for pinhead) have been attempting to foment upon us all.Perhaps War and lower interest rates will get the FED and the banks and the insurance companies out of the trap that they have inadvertantly laid which they seem to now be caught in .....What was it AG said about the banks having learned how to better manage their risk ?????????????? what a joke!!!!!At this time the outcome of this hedging is unknown...we'll see if this statement turns out to be pure fiction or not...Another word for PURE FICTION IS LYING>>>>>>>>Who is it that regulates the FED????????? WHO is going to bring charges against ALAN GREENSPAN????? What a disgrace?AFter hearing about some of the insurerers in EUROPE and their relationships to Banks in trouble ...I looked up my life insurer Allmerica Financial and discovered that they lost 70-80% of their Market Cap in the past 5 months...Guess I'll substitute term life insurance for a while and put the corpus of that life insurance policy into something that won't dissappear , go up in smoke , down the drain......Solomon's the one who spoke at length on Vanity ..... the BONFIRE IS getting bigger.....I wonder in what FORM Solomon kept his WEALTH>>>>>>>>>>>>HMMMMMMM!!!!!!I think the BIBLE records him as the RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD ...PAST AND FUTURE>>>>>>>>>>Says GOD gave him riches in response to his asking for WISDOM in ruling GOD's People..WOuld to God the wise would rise up and take over the Political system and the Banking system......in the US...IF we could clean up those two venues maybe the rest of the world could SEE THE LIGHT of our ALABASTER CITIES GLEAM and develop the desire to emulate what we say and do .I believe the LEADERS HAVE LOST THEIR WAY and are failing miserably at fullfilling the promise and the purpose for WHICH this wonderful Nation was founded..... RobotGuy (11/13/02; 08:59:25MT - usagold.com msg#: 89513) I'm with you MK. Some Canadians are saying the same thing about the Canadian military, that ew should take a rest from our global activities and influences and focus on building a stronger defense system here at home. I for one agree with it 100%, and if there were a vote cast in Canada, I think we would have at least 65% of all voters evenb if it means a sizeable jump in taxes.Cheers!Your friendly neighborhood RobotGuy. USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. (11/13/02; 08:59:07MT - usagold.com msg#: 89512) Primary Trends Signal Opportunity for Skillful Investors http://www.usagold.com/cpm/aboutcpm.html
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